The top 10 players in the competition?

[GVGjr]

No Bulldog players are allowed to be selected but who do you think are the best players in the competition?

It doesn't have to be in order either if that makes it easier.

[Go_Dogs]

I'll have a crack, not an easy task though:

1. Gary Ablett
2. Nick Riewoldt
3. Lenny Hayes
4. James Bartel
5. Luke Hodge
6. Lance Franklin
7. Sam Mitchell
8. Adam Goodes
9. Joel Selwood
10. Chris Judd

[The Coon Dog]

I have mine in alphabetical order.

Gary Ablett
Jonathon Brown
Lance Franklin
Adam Goodes
Lenny Hayes
Chris Judd
Sam Mitchell
Matthew Pavlich
Nick Reiwoldt
Matthew Scarlett

[LostDoggy]

Found this quite hard without doggies players..good thread.

Gary Ablett Jr. - Chris Judd - Dean Cox - Adam Goodes - Nick Riewoltd - Lance Franklin - Johnathan Brown - Brendan Fevola - Matthew Pavlich - Simon Black

[mighty_west]

In no particular order:

Gary Ablett
Luke Hodge
Lance Franklin
Chris Judd
Adam Goodes
Nick Riewoldt
Lenny Hayes
Jonathon Brown
Matthew Pavlich
Simon Black

[GVGjr]

In no order

Nick Riewoldt
Dean Cox
Gary Ablett
Lance Franklin
Matthew Pavlich
Chris Judd
Brendon Goddard
Brendon Fevola
Matthew Scarlett
Luke Hodge

Interesting that no Collingwood players have rated a mention yet.

[mighty_west]

Interesting that no Collingwood players have rated a mention yet.

The only Pie i considered was Dane Swan, but i just couldn't fit him in the top 10, Didak & Davis are far too inconsistant.

Pendlebury is rated highly, maybe i just haven't taken too much notice of him, i actually rate Higgins [same draft] higher, probably biased, but Higgins is also a match winning type.

[Go_Dogs]

Interesting that no Collingwood players have rated a mention yet.

I considered Swan for the final spot in my list, he gets a load of the ball but just doesn't have enough hurt factor with his possessions.

Pendlebury would be in the mix for a Top 20.





I find it interesting the number of key position players compared to mids. I highly considered Pavlich, but couldn't find room for him or Brown.

Also interesting that Scarlett appears a few times already. I guess I just underrate him a little as he has been a pretty consistently high-quality performer for a number of years now.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I can only think of six.
Pavlich
Ablett
Brown
Riewoldt
Goodes
Judd

[Rocco Jones]

1- Nick Riewoldt
2- Gary Ablett
3- Matthew Scarlett
4- Chris Judd
5- Jonathan Brown
6- Matthew Pavlich
7- Lenny Hayes
8- Brendon Goddard
9- Lance Franklin
10- Dean Cox

[anfo27]

1. Gary Ablett
2. Nick Riewoldt
3. Lance Franklin
4. Jonathan Brown
5. Adam Goodes
6. Joel Selwood
7. Lenny Hayes
8. Chris Judd
9. Luke Hodge
10. Matthew Scarlett

[Max469]

Chris Judd
Simon Black
Brendon Fevola
Matthew Scarlett
Luke Hodge
Nick Riewoldt
Adam Goodes
Gary Ablett
Lance Franklin
Matthew Pavlich

[hujsh]

Personally wouldn't have Selwood before Bartel/Corey in Geelong's top 10. Surprised to have seen him twice so far.

[The Coon Dog]

Personally wouldn't have Selwood before Bartel/Corey in Geelong's top 10. Surprised to have seen him twice so far.

How about letting us in on your top 10 then hujsh.

[immortalmike]

I'll have a crack...

1.Ablett
2.Brown
3.Scarlett
4.Goodes
5.Reiwoldt
6.Judd
7.Pavlich
8.Franklin
9. Selwood
10. Hayes

That was tougher than I thought. I just rated on who I'm most scared of when they play against us.

[hujsh]

How about letting us in on your top 10 then hujsh.

Struggling to differentiate performance from reputation at this time of year but I'll try.

Ablett
Brown
Dal Santo
Fevola (good chance he'll be gone by season's end)
Franklin
Goodes
Hayes
Judd
Riewoldt
Scarlett

Pav and Cox next in line.

[Mantis]

Struggling to differentiate performance from reputation at this time of year but I'll try.

Ablett
Brown
Fevola (good chance he'll be gone by season's end)
Franklin
Goodes
Hayes
Judd
Montagna
Riewoldt
Scarlett

Pav and Cox next in line.

:eek:

Would like to know why 'Joey' is rated so highly?

[chef]

Random order.

Jonathan Brown
Adam Goodes
Nick Riewoldt
Gary Ablett
Matthew Scarlett
Dean Cox
Chris Judd
Buddy Franklin
Luke Hodge
Lenny Hayes


Apologies to
Simon Black
Brendon Fevola
Craig Bolton
Bernie Vince
Andrew Macleod
Matthew Pavlich
Marc Murphy

[Ozza]

1. Gary Ablett
2. Nick Riewoldt
3. Chris Judd
4. Matthew Scarlett
5. Lance Franklin
6. Jonathon Brown
7. Matthew Pavlich
8. Paul Chapman
9. Lenny Hayes
10. Adam Goodes

Just outside of that would be Brendon Goddard who I think is a super super player. So dangerous with the footy, strong in the air and doesn't make mistakes.

[Go_Dogs]

Personally wouldn't have Selwood before Bartel/Corey in Geelong's top 10. Surprised to have seen him twice so far.

I had Bartel ahead of Selwood - but Selwood gets in. He's tough as they come and can do it all. And he's only going to get better.

[LostDoggy]

1.Gary Ablett
2.Johnathon Brown
3.Chris Judd
4.Matthew Pavlich
5.Nick Riewoldt
6.Adam Goodes
7.Brent Harvey
8.Joel Selwood
9.Lenny Hayes
10.Luke Hodge

[Mantis]

1.Gary Ablett
2.Johnathon Brown
3.Chris Judd
4.Matthew Pavlich
5.Nick Riewoldt
6.Adam Goodes
7.Brent Harvey
8.Joel Selwood
9.Lenny Hayes
10.Luke Hodge

Maybe 5 years ago, but I can't see how you could rate Harvey at no.7. I wouldn't have thought he would be in the best 25 or 30 players going around at present.

* And yes I will do a list later on so you pick the hell out of my attempt.

[Mofra]

Ablett
Brown
Pavlich
Riewoldt
Hayes
Jolly
Scarlett
Goodes
Tippett
Franklin

* Actually considering Goddard, Hodge or Watson in at one stage.
** Judd's omission is not an oversight
*** Neither is Cox's

[Go_Dogs]

Ablett
Brown
Pavlich
Riewoldt
Hayes
Jolly
Scarlett
Goodes
Tippett
Franklin

* Actually considering Goddard, Hodge or Watson in at one stage.
** Judd's omission is not an oversight
*** Neither is Cox's

Tippett in the Top 10???

Good player and getting better, but still a fair way off Top 10 I would have thought.

[mighty_west]

Just outside of that would be Brendon Goddard who I think is a super super player. So dangerous with the footy, strong in the air and doesn't make mistakes.

I actually have Goddard as my Supercoach captain, i couldn't fit him in this year in my top 10 either, but predicting he will give the top 10 a shake after this season.

[mighty_west]

** Judd's omission is not an oversight
*** Neither is Cox's

I also don't have much love for Cox, he has definatly not been a top 10 player ove the past 2 years imo, before that time, he was numero uno ruckman in the league and a definate top 10'ner.

[LostDoggy]

Maybe 5 years ago, but I can't see how you could rate Harvey at no.7. I wouldn't have thought he would be in the best 25 or 30 players going around at present.

* And yes I will do a list later on so you pick the hell out of my attempt.

Yep i thought Harvey would raise eyebrows....he continues to be the number one at North and delivers week after week! IMO....a lot of posters have put Simon Black in their top ten, i would think five years ago there as well?

[hujsh]

:eek:

Would like to know why 'Joey' is rated so highly?

Whoops. Should be Dal Santo. He's the one I like.

[GVGjr]

The one player that surprises me with so many mentions is Lenny Hayes. He might sneak into my top 20 but he wasn't close to the top 10 for me.

[Go_Dogs]

The one player that surprises me with so many mentions is Lenny Hayes. He might sneak into my top 20 but he wasn't close to the top 10 for me.

He had a pretty good finals series - that's probably what has stuck in my mind.

Gets a lot of the ball, wins crucial clearances, lays an enormous amount of tackles, and I think his disposal is generally pretty good.

He's not as flashy as some of his team mates, but he gets the job done week in week out.

[LostDoggy]

Whoops. Should be Dal Santo. He's the one I like.

+1 Big fan of Nicky Dal but couldn't squeeze him into mine.


The one player that surprises me with so many mentions is Lenny Hayes. He might sneak into my top 20 but he wasn't close to the top 10 for me.

Same, he'd be in my top 20 aswell but I dont see him as 'elite'

[chef]

The one player that surprises me with so many mentions is Lenny Hayes. He might sneak into my top 20 but he wasn't close to the top 10 for me.

I love Lenny, the way he plays and the leadership he has on the field. IMO he dragged the Saints to the line in the prelim last year.

[GVGjr]

I love Lenny, the way he plays and the leadership he has on the field. IMO he dragged the Saints to the line in the prelim last year.

I don't disagree with too much of that but he's a step short of being elite in my opinion.

Look at most of the guys being nominated in the top 10 and just about all have that one particular strength that separates them from the pack. I just can't see why a consistent player like Hayes is being regarded as elite.

[chef]

I don't disagree with too much of that but he's a step short of being elite in my opinion.

Look at most of the guys being nominated in the top 10 and just about all have that one particular strength that separates them from the pack. I just can't see why a consistent player like Hayes is being regarded as elite.

Fair enough, I feel the same way about Goddard.

[GVGjr]

Fair enough, I feel the same way about Goddard.

I guess it's horses for courses and I'm probably overrating Goddard

[chef]

I guess it's horses for courses and I'm probably overrating Goddard

No, we all see things differently and have different opinions:)

[Sedat]

Just outside of that would be Brendon Goddard who I think is a super super player. So dangerous with the footy, strong in the air and doesn't make mistakes.
Fantastic player but marking in a contest would be one of his weaknesses. St Kilda's reliance on all 3 of Riewoldt, Hayes and Goddard is as critical as 3 players for any other clubs.

My list (based on expected 2010 impact):
1. Riewoldt
2. Ablett
3. Hayes
4. Goodes
5. J. Brown
6. Franklin
7. Judd
8. Hodge
9. Scarlett
10. Pavlich

Honorable mentions to Jolly, Corey, J. Selwood and Goddard. Special mention to Deledio, who on natural talent alone should be on this list but in actual performance is nowhere near it.

[FrediKanoute]

Next question.....of these guys who you consider as being "Marquee Players"? If for example a Marquee player is a player nuetral and opposition fans would galdy pay to go and see, which of these guys fall into that category?

[Mantis]

1. Gary Ablett
2. Nick Riewoldt
3. Jonathon Brown
4. Chris Judd
5. Matthew Scarlett
6. Lenny Hayes
7. Paul Chapman
8. Lance Franklin
9. Adam Goodes
10. Matthew Pavlich

Just outside would be the following players in no particular order:

Dal Santo, Goddard, Jolly, Hodge & Black.

If we were adding W.B. players I would have Lake on the list with Cooney included with the players just outside.

[Go_Dogs]

Dal Santo, Goddard, Jolly, Hodge & Black.

A few mentions of Jolly. Is he the best ruck in the AFL at this point in time?

Interesting how one year (riddled with injury) has seen Cox drop dramatically - this time last year he would have been a lock for most people's top 10's. Sandilands the obvious other who I thought most would include above Jolly.

[Mofra]

A few mentions of Jolly. Is he the best ruck in the AFL at this point in time?
IMO yes. He is a very good tap ruckman which may have helped him stand out at the SCG so it will be interesting to see how he plays the wider MCG.

[LostDoggy]

My criteria was that they had to be consistent game-breakers, ie. guys who regularly influence the outcome of games. I have also attempted to place them in order:

1. Gablett - self-evident
2. Riewoldt - single-handedly improves the Saints from perennial finalist to genuine premiership contender, without him the Saints would finish between 6th and 9th.
3. Hayes - not sure why his place is being questioned -- undoubtedly the best non-Geelong midfielder in the competition today, stands up in all the big games
4. Pavlich - severely underrated; the only person that makes Freo look like winning games when they are down and out, if they had two of him they would make the eight every year, if any of the top 4 had him they would win the premiership by the length of the Nullabor. I have him on par with Riewoldt as the best KPP in the league, unlucky that he plays for the team he does.
5. Brown - pretty self-evident as well, kicked two game winning bags last year even while struggling with injury
6. Goodes - never beaten, best athlete in the game, looks like Phar Lap every time he takes the field
7. Fevola - Hate the guy, but clearly can and have won plenty of games off his own boot and has actually gotten better over the years despite plenty of attention from opposition coaches
8. Bartel - changed the path of at least two games last year and is the ultimate competitor, underrated because he is more grunt than looks, definitely a better all-round player than Selwood at this stage of their careers
9. Enright - Controversial choice over Scarlett I know, but I think he's actually more key to Geelong's defence than Scarlo is as he is often third man up and also the best user of the ball. Also can move into the middle to change the pace of a game, which can be as important to winning as more eye-catching moves. He's in here because of his brain.
10. Swan - Can't stand the guy! He's not flash, but does it all and everytime I watch the Pies play he's the only guy in everything, and when he plays well, which is more often than not these days, they win. A poor man's Bartel, which is saying something.

Apologies to Dal Santo, he and Swan are pretty much interchangeable in terms of impact on a game these days.

Comments on others that have been mentioned:

Franklin and Hodge were next in line but they haven't decided a game in 12 months, so their reputation exceeds their current output, and Franklin has yet to prove that he can beat the defensive strategy most teams are employing on him now, and is more than a one-season wonder.

Scarlett is clearly as good a full-back as any running around, but Lakey was better than him in 2009 and he would barely make my top 10. Goddard not really close at this stage.. bloody good player, but not (yet) elite, especially since he runs around without a tag and struggled when Griff played on him in last year Prelim.

Juddy gathers lots of possessions but that's about it, and it's not really enough these days, Jolly may well force his way into the top ten but at this point is not better than any of the guys on that list, and Cox would have been a shoo-in every other year but barely played last year so can't possibly be named for now -- if he's not playing he's a non-factor. Speaking of ruckmen, a fully fit Hille may well end up a more damaging player than either of them.

Nathan Bock would have been on that list on 2008 form, influence on a game and versatility, but his 2009 was a bit meh.

--

ps. Only Dogs player that would make the list based on actual 2009 output would be Lakey, probably at no.8. Boydy and Morris would just miss. Coons pain-free would probably make the list too, but he hasn't been pain-free for a while now, and a fit Murph (and consistent Griff) can definitely crack the top 10.

[Mantis]

My criteria was that they had to be consistent game-breakers, ie. guys who regularly influence the outcome of games. I have also attempted to place them in order:

1. Gablett - self-evident
2. Riewoldt - single-handedly improves the Saints from perennial finalist to genuine premiership contender, without him the Saints would finish between 6th and 9th.
3. Hayes - not sure why his place is being questioned -- undoubtedly the best non-Geelong midfielder in the competition today, stands up in all the big games
4. Pavlich - severely underrated; the only person that makes Freo look like winning games when they are down and out, if they had two of him they would make the eight every year, if any of the top 4 had him they would win the premiership by the length of the Nullabor. I have him on par with Riewoldt as the best KPP in the league, unlucky that he plays for the team he does.
5. Brown - pretty self-evident as well, kicked two game winning bags last year even while struggling with injury
6. Goodes - never beaten, best athlete in the game, looks like Phar Lap every time he takes the field
7. Fevola - Hate the guy, but clearly can and have won plenty of games off his own boot and has actually gotten better over the years despite plenty of attention from opposition coaches
8. Bartel - changed the path of at least two games last year and is the ultimate competitor, underrated because he is more grunt than looks, definitely a better all-round player than Selwood at this stage of their careers
9. Enright - Controversial choice over Scarlett I know, but I think he's actually more key to Geelong's defence than Scarlo is as he is often third man up and also the best user of the ball. Also can move into the middle to change the pace of a game, which can be as important to winning as more eye-catching moves. He's in here because of his brain.
10. Swan - Can't stand the guy! He's not flash, but does it all and everytime I watch the Pies play he's the only guy in everything, and when he plays well, which is more often than not these days, they win. A poor man's Bartel, which is saying something.

Apologies to Dal Santo, he and Swan are pretty much interchangeable in terms of impact on a game these days.

Comments on others that have been mentioned:

Franklin and Hodge were next in line but they haven't decided a game in 12 months, so their reputation exceeds their current output, and Franklin has yet to prove that he can beat the defensive strategy most teams are employing on him now, and is more than a one-season wonder.

Scarlett is clearly as good a full-back as any running around, but Lakey was better than him in 2009 and he would barely make my top 10. Goddard not really close at this stage.. bloody good player, but not (yet) elite, especially since he runs around without a tag and struggled when Griff played on him in last year Prelim.

Juddy gathers lots of possessions but that's about it, and it's not really enough these days, Jolly may well force his way into the top ten but at this point is not better than any of the guys on that list, and Cox would have been a shoo-in every other year but barely played last year so can't possibly be named for now -- if he's not playing he's a non-factor. Speaking of ruckmen, a fully fit Hille may well end up a more damaging player than either of them.

Nathan Bock would have been on that list on 2008 form, influence on a game and versatility, but his 2009 was a bit meh.

--

ps. Only Dogs player that would make the list based on actual 2009 output would be Lakey, probably at no.8. Boydy and Morris would just miss. Coons pain-free would probably make the list too, but he hasn't been pain-free for a while now, and a fit Murph (and consistent Griff) can definitely crack the top 10.

Chapman is a better player than both of these. (Bartel & Selwood)

Bartel may have changed the course of a couple of games, but Chappy won them a f*****g GF.

I can't believe you rate Swan above Judd. If Swan is in everything for the Pies what the hell does Judd do for Carlton??

[Mofra]

I can't believe you rate Swan above Judd. If Swan is in everything for the Pies what the hell does Judd do for Carlton??
What does Judd do? If it involves team mates and alcohol abuse, apparently nothing.

[Go_Dogs]

Chapman is a better player than both of these. (Bartel & Selwood)

Bartel may have changed the course of a couple of games, but Chappy won them a f*****g GF.

Chapman is an interesting one. No doubt he is a terrific player, and has certainly improved his output significantly over the past few years. I just find it really difficult to name a guy who still predominately plays a role off HF (and who looks like he's still carrying his puppy fat) in the top 10 players in the league.

He's certainly more eye-catching than Selwood and Bartel, but I'm not convinced he's more (or less) important than those guys.

He didn't make my list but would have been in the next 5 or so names that I would reel off.

[Mantis]

Chapman is an interesting one. No doubt he is a terrific player, and has certainly improved his output significantly over the past few years. I just find it really difficult to name a guy who still predominately plays a role off HF (and who looks like he's still carrying his puppy fat) in the top 10 players in the league.

He's certainly more eye-catching than Selwood and Bartel, but I'm not convinced he's more (or less) important than those guys.

He didn't make my list but would have been in the next 5 or so names that I would reel off.

2009 averages (per game):

Paul Chapman - 26.9 dispoals (17 kicks), 6.5 marks, 1.8 goals

Jimmy Bartel - 27 disposals (14.5 kicks), 6.3 marks, 0.5 goals

Joel Selwood - 27.5 disposals (12 kicks), 4.4 marks, 0.4 goals

Adam Goodes - 21.3 disposals (13.4 kicks), 6.1 marks, 1.7 goals

Contested possession & clearance numbers may change my views, but on these stats alone Chapman's numbers stack up very well against the other 2 'pure' midfileders in Bartel & Selwood. For a HF he gets his hands on the ball just as much as some of the best midfielders (in your opinion) in the game.

Against a like player (bit part forward/ midfielder) in Goodes it can be seen that Chapman has superior numbers. Geelong do play a much more possession based style than Sydney, but his high kick:handball ratio indicate that these touches have more worth than if he was handball happy.

[LostDoggy]

IMO yes. He is a very good tap ruckman which may have helped him stand out at the SCG so it will be interesting to see how he plays the wider MCG.

Jolly is very good...I would reckon that the big fella from Freo (Sandilands) might just be ahead of him right now.

[LostDoggy]

Chapman is a better player than both of these. (Bartel & Selwood)

Bartel may have changed the course of a couple of games, but Chappy won them a f*****g GF.

I can't believe you rate Swan above Judd. If Swan is in everything for the Pies what the hell does Judd do for Carlton??

Heya Mantis -- Chapman is certainly a brilliant player, but for quality output over a longer period of time, in my opinion Bartel comes up trumps. The reality is that so many of these Geelong guys are so good they are practically interchangeable -- Corey and Steve Johnson (who has also been a GF BOG) are stiff to miss out any of these lists, for example.

Swan vs. Judd -- well, Swannie had a better 2009, I think. Also, Swan is a very effective two-direction player who rarely lets his opponent get away while Judd isn't exactly the most accountable player going around (despite his relatively healthy tackle count). And for what it's worth, Collingwood performed much better than Carlton last year.

I know this is not a popular view, but I find that a lot of the reporting around Juddy's recent performances are inflated by his reputation, the memory of him in his prime, Carlton's hype machine and a level of protection from the umpires that is almost embarassing in its hero-worship (no one else is allowed to throw the ball away when caught in a tackle and get away with it as consistently). Also, I know stats aren't everything, but his output (apart from raw disposals) is significantly down from his Eagles' days, especially in his goal-scoring output (down by half I think): breaking away from packs to kick goals used to be one of his strongest weapons. Of course he is still an elite midfielder, and will be remembered as an all-time great, but we're talking about CURRENT performances, aren't we? His influence on a game in the last 12-18 months wouldn't be greater than any of Montagna, Goddard, Sewell, Mitchell, Dal Santo etc., none of which made my top 10.

[Speaking of Carlton, Marc Murphy also can't be a top 10 player with the quality of disposal he displayed in 2009; elite players just don't give the ball up every other time they get it.]

In any case, much of these lists are subjective, so fire away! :)

[LostDoggy]

Against a like player (bit part forward/ midfielder) in Goodes it can be seen that Chapman has superior numbers. Geelong do play a much more possession based style than Sydney, but his high kick:handball ratio indicate that these touches have more worth than if he was handball happy.

This is a very interesting comparison -- my comment would be that Chapman plays a very high intensity game based around getting lots of touches, while Goodes exerts influence through the quality of his possessions. Not really a case of misleading stats, just a different type of player (despite similar positions as you've already pointed out).

No doubt Chappie is as good as they come, though. :)

--

Perhaps we could clarify our criteria for our top 10s: it would be interesting to see a list of top 10 players playing currently but based on career output rather than current output. Juddy would make it, probably in the top 3. Based on career output, you would have to have Johnno and Aker in there too, one would say. Black, Harvey.. those guys.

[Go_Dogs]

2009 averages (per game):

Paul Chapman - 26.9 dispoals (17 kicks), 6.5 marks, 1.8 goals

Jimmy Bartel - 27 disposals (14.5 kicks), 6.3 marks, 0.5 goals

Joel Selwood - 27.5 disposals (12 kicks), 4.4 marks, 0.4 goals

Adam Goodes - 21.3 disposals (13.4 kicks), 6.1 marks, 1.7 goals

Contested possession & clearance numbers may change my views, but on these stats alone Chapman's numbers stack up very well against the other 2 'pure' midfileders in Bartel & Selwood. For a HF he gets his hands on the ball just as much as some of the best midfielders (in your opinion) in the game.

Chapman v Bartel
http://www.pro-stats.com.au/psw/web/compare_players?tid1=107&pid1=20126&tid2=107&pid2=2002057

I50's and goals, Chappy in front. Tackles, R50's, CP's and 1%ers Bartel in front. Most other statistics are pretty even.

Chapman v Selwood
http://www.pro-stats.com.au/psw/web/compare_players?tid1=107&pid1=20126&tid2=107&pid2=2007066

Chappy more kicks, I50's. Selwood more handballs, more 1st possessions, contested possessions, clearances, tackles and 1%ers. Most other statistics pretty even.



I'm not disagreeing that Chapman is an important player, and one of the best going around at the moment, but I just think the other 2 guys just get him. I think contested possessions, and clearances are a fairly useful indicator of performance, and high 1%ers and tackles also show a more well rounded game.

At the end of the day, all 3 are bloody good players who can influence a game.

[hujsh]

Chapman is an interesting one. No doubt he is a terrific player, and has certainly improved his output significantly over the past few years. I just find it really difficult to name a guy who still predominately plays a role off HF (and who looks like he's still carrying his puppy fat) in the top 10 players in the league.

He's certainly more eye-catching than Selwood and Bartel, but I'm not convinced he's more (or less) important than those guys.

He didn't make my list but would have been in the next 5 or so names that I would reel off.

Struggled between him Franklin and Dal Santo. Chapman could have been in my list if I made it another day.

[LostDoggy]

I can't believe you rate Swan above Judd. If Swan is in everything for the Pies what the hell does Judd do for Carlton??

Juddy hasn't played yet this year but based on one game he would have some catching up to do to match Swannie's output so far. He's gotten even better again, it seems, which is just ridiculous. Probably the most under-rated player in the game (only because of the names that always come up ahead of him when discussing midfield players).

ps. For all the hype, no WAY Selwood is a better player than Swan.

pps. Many of us also rated Jolly pretty highly, only one game in but doesn't look the same player.

[chef]

Juddy hasn't played yet this year but based on one game he would have some catching up to do to match Swannie's output so far. He's gotten even better again, it seems, which is just ridiculous. Probably the most under-rated player in the game (only because of the names that always come up ahead of him when discussing midfield players).

ps. For all the hype, no WAY Selwood is a better player than Swan.

pps. Many of us also rated Jolly pretty highly, only one game in but doesn't look the same player.

Maybe he's a better player on the smaller SCG?

[Go_Dogs]

ps. For all the hype, no WAY Selwood is a better player than Swan.

pps. Many of us also rated Jolly pretty highly, only one game in but doesn't look the same player.

Selwood had a pretty good night against Essendon, not sure if you are suggesting that he is overrated or Swan in underrated though. Selwood has been a proven performer in high intensity games over a 3 year period, and kicked off 2010 with another great performance.

Swan is probably underrated by most non-Collingwood supporters to a certain extent, so if that is your point, I tend to agree with it. By the sounds Swan kicked it up another notch on the weekend too.



I must say, I feel slightly vindicated by Jolly's performance on the weekend, although I have no doubt he'll turn it around.

Sandliands certainly was the best performed ruck over the course of the weekend, and probably has been right up there over the last few years. He'd certainly be ahead of Jolly in my rankings. Cox too.

[LostDoggy]

Selwood had a pretty good night against Essendon, not sure if you are suggesting that he is overrated or Swan in underrated though. Selwood has been a proven performer in high intensity games over a 3 year period, and kicked off 2010 with another great performance.
.

Really? I've seen him play some great games, but again, look at the midfield talent he is surrounded with. For the first few years of his professional career he would have run around without a tag as teams tried to shut down Gablett, Bartel, Enright, Corey, Ling etc.

Gablett in full flight ALONE would make most midfielders around him look good, much less the one that usually gets the easiest opponent. When Gazza hasn't played Selwood has looked a lot less dangerous, as he can't just be the one that runs forward of the play and be the final player in a chain of handballs (not saying that he doesn't also do the hard stuff).

Would a similarly impactful young player (say, Daniel Rich) not have gone as well as Selwood has if he were playing in that midfield? By the same token, would Selwood have gone as well if he were playing for Brisbane, or Richmond? I highly doubt it.

I am not disparaging his quality -- he is an elite young talent, but some people are rating him as the second or third best midfield player in the comp, which is just rubbish. He's not even the third best midfielder at Geelong!

[Go_Dogs]

Really? I've seen him play some great games, but again, look at the midfield talent he is surrounded with. For the first few years of his professional career he would have run around without a tag as teams tried to shut down Gablett, Bartel, Enright, Corey, Ling etc.

I am not disparaging his quality -- he is an elite young talent, but some people are rating him as the second or third best midfield player in the comp, which is just rubbish. He's not even the third best midfielder at Geelong!

There is always that argument there, and there is no way to test whether or not he would have become as good a player as quickly if he played for another club. Most would suggest not, but at the end of the day it's his on-field performance that counts. He was a first year player able to break into that star studded midfield, and play a big, and meaningful role. Those are the facts.

Bomber rates him as the best talent to EVER (yes, Ablett, Steve Johnson, Chapman, Bartel etc are included) come through the doors at Geelong. And I'd say that is he the 3rd best midfielder at Geelong, behind both Ablett and Bartel.

Enright plays up the field, but is still more of a defender who can run all day - I'm not sure his output is actually better than Selwood's regardless. Corey is a terrific player too, but I think Selwood gets more influential touches. Ling is a tagger, and although he played a ripper of a game on Friday night, I certainly rank Selwood ahead on footballing ability. Ling does play a very important role for his side though.

The other point is, Selwood is not really the sort of bloke you can tag out of a game. He does his best work in the bottom of packs, in tight congestion and contested situations. He can work well outside in space too, but his best (and most valuable work) is the stuff that is very hard to "tag".

I guess we'll agree to disagree, but imo, he's certainly one of the better mids running around at the moment.

[LostDoggy]

I guess we'll agree to disagree, but imo, he's certainly one of the better mids running around at the moment.

Well composed argument, G#16, much appreciated discussion. I don't think we disagree as much as it seems -- Selwood is definitely one of the better mids running around. Like I've said in other threads, I rate him in the same bracket as Simon Black, Brent Harvey, Steve Johnson, Sam Mitchell, those type of guys, which I don't see as disparaging at all. I just can't see how he can be rated ahead of guys like Goodes, Hodge, Hayes, Pav and Swan, guys you build whole teams around.. 'franchise players', in US-speak. I see Selwood as more a Scottie Pippen than a Michael Jordan (both elite, both Dream Teamers, but..), if you know what I mean.

[chef]

A bit like Kerr maybe, a very good player in a great mid field but without the support he wouldn't be as good.

[LostDoggy]

a bit like kerr maybe, a very good player in a great mid field but without the support he wouldn't be as good.

EXACTLY. Nailed my argument for me better than I did.

[Go_Dogs]

Well composed argument, G#16, much appreciated discussion.

Thanks, and I can certainly see the merits in your arguments too. The Pippen and Kerr analogies are good ones too. I suspect the answer lies somewhere in the middle of our views (although as you say, our views are fairly closely aligned, so I guess it's a small area of middle ground!). As always, good (and long) discussion. ;)

[Go_Dogs]

Thought it could be a good chance to perhaps revisit this thread, based on what we have seen over the course of the first 6 rounds.

My top 10 as it stood before the season:


1. Gary Ablett
2. Nick Riewoldt
3. Lenny Hayes
4. James Bartel
5. Luke Hodge
6. Lance Franklin
7. Sam Mitchell
8. Adam Goodes
9. Joel Selwood
10. Chris Judd

As of right now, I would probably go for something like this:

1. Ablett
2. Riewoldt (pre-injury obviously)
3. Brown
4. Hodge
5. Hayes (although a quiet start, was great on the weekend - still their best mid IMO)
6. Judd
7. Chapman
8. Pavlich
9. Sandilands
10. Bartel

Mitchell has been affected by injury and his form was a little down (still big numbers though), whilst Goodes and Franklin have both had inconsistent starts to the year whilst there have been some impressive performances by the big, key forwards in Pavlich and Brown. Selwood just misses out due to, with Chapman having been very damaging thus far.

Goddard pretty unlucky as he's certainly around the mark.

[hujsh]

Pavlich forces his way into my top ten at the expense of Dal Santo

[Mofra]

1. Ablett
2. Riewoldt (pre-injury obviously)
3. Brown
4. Hodge
5. Hayes (although a quiet start, was great on the weekend - still their best mid IMO)
6. Judd
7. Chapman
8. Pavlich
9. Sandilands
10. Bartel
Very hard to argue with that list, although Montagna has a right to feel aggreived that he's missed out (perhaps an in at the expence of Riewoldt?). Riewoldt had legitimate claims to the no 1 spit before his injury this year, he was flying.

[Rocco Jones]

I was thinking about revisiting it as well. Here is my new top 10. It Rooless obviously due to his long term injury, doubts about how he will come back and because he is a girl.

1- Gary Ablett
2- Jonathan Brown
3- Chris Judd
4- Aaron Sandilands
5- Matthew Pavlich
6- Brendon Goddard
7- Luke Hodge
8- Paul Chapman
9- Lenny Hayes
10- Ryan O'Keefe

[Bulldog Revolution]

7- Luke Hodge


OK I am cheating here by not going into the full top ten discussion, but I believe Luke Hodge is one of the most overrated players in the competition. Sure I think he is a very good player, but he's a rebounding defender who plays loose man a lot of the time.

I think if he were the star everyone thinks he is, he'd be genuinely able to play midfield and have an influence, but to suggest he is a midfielder in my eyes is ridiculous.

As a result I think guys like Swan, Mark Muprhy, Judd, Cooney, Ablett, Bartel, Selwood, Hayes, Dal Santo, Boyd etc all have more influence on the game than him

[Mofra]

OK I am cheating here by not going into the full top ten discussion, but I believe Luke Hodge is one of the most overrated players in the competition. Sure I think he is a very good player, but he's a rebounding defender who plays loose man a lot of the time.

I think if he were the star everyone thinks he is, he'd be genuinely able to play midfield and have an influence, but to suggest he is a midfielder in my eyes is ridiculous.

As a result I think guys like Swan, Mark Muprhy, Judd, Cooney, Ablett, Bartel, Selwood, Hayes, Dal Santo, Boyd etc all have more influence on the game than him
Disagree - he's played every position on the ground this year, and at 185cm you need to be damn good to play CHB/CHF and ruck at times in 3 consecutive weeks.
Most players struggle when thrown around, yet Hodge has not just managed, but performed well in every position. The guy has the heart of a lion and when given time & space will cut teams up. Would be leading their B&F by a big margin already.

[Sockeye Salmon]

OK I am cheating here by not going into the full top ten discussion, but I believe Luke Hodge is one of the most overrated players in the competition. Sure I think he is a very good player, but he's a rebounding defender who plays loose man a lot of the time.

I think if he were the star everyone thinks he is, he'd be genuinely able to play midfield and have an influence, but to suggest he is a midfielder in my eyes is ridiculous.

As a result I think guys like Swan, Mark Muprhy, Judd, Cooney, Ablett, Bartel, Selwood, Hayes, Dal Santo, Boyd etc all have more influence on the game than him

I'm with Mofra, Hodge is a superstar.

He does play midfield often and when he does he can rip it up there as well.

[LostDoggy]

I'm with Mofra, Hodge is a superstar.

He does play midfield often and when he does he can rip it up there as well.

Stunk it up last week though, got towelled up when he went into the middle, then got killed by Gumbleton when he went back. Lucky Supercoach doesn't deduct points for getting outmarked...

He's definitely a gun, having said that. But I'm not rating him ahead of Bartel, Hayes, Swan or Judd as a pure mid. What was my top 10 again...

[LostDoggy]

Edited version of my original post:




1. Gablett
2. Riewoldt
3. Hayes
4. Pavlich
5. Brown
6. Goodes
7. Fevola
8. Bartel
9. Enright
10. Swan

Brief notes:

Franklin and Hodge were next in line
Scarlett is clearly as good a full-back as any running around, but Lakey was better than him in 2009 and he would barely make my top 10. Goddard not really close at this stage.. bloody good player, but not (yet) elite, especially since he runs around without a tag and struggled when Griff played on him in last year Prelim.
Juddy gathers lots of possessions but that's about it, and it's not really enough these days, Jolly may well force his way into the top ten but at this point is not better than any of the guys on that list, and Cox would have been a shoo-in every other year but barely played last year so can't possibly be named for now -- if he's not playing he's a non-factor.
Nathan Bock would have been on that list on 2008 form, influence on a game and versatility, but his 2009 was a bit meh.
Only Dogs player that would make the list based on actual 2009 output would be Lakey, probably at no.8. Boydy and Morris would just miss. Coons pain-free would probably make the list too, but he hasn't been pain-free for a while now, and a fit Murph (and consistent Griff) can definitely crack the top 10.


Looks okay except for Fev and Enright. At this stage Juddy and Hodge would probably go back in in their place, behind Swan and Bartel who would move up to no 7 and 8 respectively.

Jolly and Hille are miles away, Scarlett has been sight unseen, Lakey and Goddard still not quite there, Bock has disappeared, Boydy, Coons and Morris have been only okay.

Griff is closing fast.

[chef]

Random order.

Jonathan Brown
Adam Goodes
Nick Riewoldt
Gary Ablett
Matthew Scarlett
Dean Cox
Chris Judd
Buddy Franklin
Luke Hodge
Lenny Hayes


Apologies to
Simon Black
Brendon Fevola
Craig Bolton
Bernie Vince
Andrew Macleod
Matthew Pavlich
Marc Murphy

Only thing I would change is Pavlich in and Cox out.

[Bulldog Revolution]

I'm with Mofra, Hodge is a superstar.

He does play midfield often and when he does he can rip it up there as well.

We'll have to agree on some elements (that hes a good player) and disagree on others (that he rips it up midfield).

I think he is a really good player, but I think because former footballers love his knockabout country bloke image he is overrated by the media, and I think Hawthorn have encouraged this so they dont get the negativity from having overlooked Judd to pick him.

I also think that if he'd been anybody but him he would have been suspended for punching Welsh in the back of the head last week on a wildly failed spoiling attempt.