Game Day - R1 Western Bulldogs vs Collingwood

[BulldogBelle]

This is the discussion thread for this Sunday's afternoon game at Etihad Stadium against Collingwood.

My predictions are:

The Dogs by 24 points
BOG : Adam Cooney
Barry Hall to kick the first goal.

[Go_Dogs]

Dogs by 7 points.
BOG: Ryan Griffen
First goal: Shaun Higgins

[The Coon Dog]

Dogs by 37

First goal - Aker

BOG - Cooney

[LostDoggy]

Dogs by 43

bog; Lake

first goal: has to be hall to get the "baaarrryyyyyy" chant started straight after

[mighty_west]

Dogs by 2 points

First goal : Bazza

BOG : Gia

[AndrewP6]

Dogs by 10 pts
BOG COOOOOOOOOONEY
First goal BAZZA!

[bornadog]

Dogs by 32 points

First Goal - Higgins

BOG - Griffen

[Max469]

Dogs by 9 pts

1st goal - Murphy

BOG - Aker

[angelopetraglia]

Dogs in a tight encounter by 16 points.

1st Goal Gia.

BOG Boyd.

[LostDoggy]

Dogs by 26.

1st goal Hall

BOG Cooney

[LostDoggy]

Dogs by 19
1st Goal Missy
BOG Coooooons

[The Adelaide Connection]

Dogs by 24
BOG Boyd
First goal: Hill (it will be a beneficiary of everyones eyes being on Barry.

[LostDoggy]

Doggies by 28.
First goal Johnno (if Johnno doesnt play it'll be Hall)
BOG Cooney

[chef]

Doggies by 24
First goal- Higgins
BOG- Cooney

[LostDoggy]

Doggies by 17
First goal - Cooney
BOG - Boyd

[craigsahibee]

Dogs by 25
Gia First Goal
Hargreaves BOG

For those that are not going and those that have recording functions (IQ/DVD-R) etc. Footy Flashbacks on Sunday arvo will feature Round 21, 2000. Libba and John Barnes as special guests.

[jazzadogs]

Dogs by 25
Gia First Goal
Hargreaves BOG

For those that are not going and those that have recording functions (IQ/DVD-R) etc. Footy Flashbacks on Sunday arvo will feature Round 21, 2000. Libba and John Barnes as special guests.
Thanks for that, I will record.

Ryan HARGRAVE is the Bulldog player you were referencing.

Dogs by 1
BOG: Cooney
First goal: Johnson

[Jasper]

Dogs by 9 points. Higgins BOG and first goal.

[Mantis]

Dogs by 27pts.

BOG - Cooney
1st goal - Higgins

Spewing I can't go... Look forward to reading all the reports later on.

[Ozza]

Dogs by 18 points
BOG - Cooney
First Goal =Hall

[Go_Dogs]

Spewing I can't go... Look forward to reading all the reports later on.

Yes, I know all of us from SA are expecting some detailed reports as we won't get to see the game at all today.

(If someone knows otherwise, please send me a PM)


I'll instead be enjoying the Power's game today. :rolleyes:

[The Coon Dog]

Dogs by 37

First Goal - Aker

BOG - Cooney

[Go_Dogs]

Dogs by 37

First Goal - Aker

BOG - Cooney

If you are going to put up two sets of names, a good idea would be to use alternative players and margins, and increase your chances of being right :D ;)

[The Coon Dog]

If you are going to put up two sets of names, a good idea would be to use alternative players and margins, and increase your chances of being right :D ;)

Did I already submit mine?

Well, there you go! At least I was consistent. :o

[Go_Dogs]

Did I already submit mine?

Well, there you go! At least I was consistent. :o

Haha, I recalled that you had submitted yours directly below mine, and upon checking realised you had, and had submitted the same names.

I don't think I could've been consistent if I'd tried, so yes, at least you were firm in your beliefs. Hopefully you are right too, I wouldn't mind a 6 goal victory!

[NoName]

Bulldogs by 22 points.

Goal - Barry Hall

BOG - Griffen

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Doggies by 15 points.
hall 1st goal.

Boyd BOG

[Dry Rot]

Any word on Johnno and the final teams?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

If it hasn't been announced by then, I'll post if I see him or not when theycome out for pre game warm up.

[Dry Rot]

Thanks

[LostDoggy]

WESTERN BULLDOGS v COLLINGWOOD
Western Bulldogs
B: Jarrod Harbrow, Brian Lake, Andrejis Everitt
HB: Ryan Hargrave, Tom Williams, Lindsay Gilbee
C: Daniel Cross, Matthew Boyd, Liam Picken
HF: Robert Murphy, Mitch Hahn, Shaun Higgins
F: Jason Akermanis, Barry Hall, Daniel Giansiracusa
Foll: Ben Hudson, Adam Cooney, Ryan Griffen
I/C : Brad Johnson, Will Minson, Josh Hill, Dylan Addison
Changes to the selected side
In: Dylan Addison
Out: Dale Morris

Whats wrong with Dale?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Thanks

Johnno is out running around in the warm up but no Morris.

[Dry Rot]

Thanks. Morris is out with flu.

Another poor start by us, but then a ripping second quarter.

That free against Williams - WTF?

[LostDoggy]

Thanks. Morris is out with flu.

Another poor start by us, but then a ripping second quarter.

That free against Williams - WTF?

Yep I'm completely puzzled by that one:confused:

I tell you what, how good is it to finally have a team we know won't throw in the towel when they get six goals down? You never feel like they're completely out of it these days. Should be a cracking last half. I keep thinking about what Aker said a few weeks ago regarding our fitness and pre-season "This team will come into it's own in the second half of games" Hope he's right?!!

Go Dogs!

[mjp]

Watching the stats online/listening to the coverage I can't help but think our team was poorly conceived.

With Johnson, Hahn, Akermanis, Murphy, Hill and Hall in the side we are lacking run - a third of the squad plays almost exclusively in the front half. Moles HAD to play. Bringing Addison in to replace Morris is fine...but the balance just looks wrong. Looking that the stats, all the heavy lifting is being left to Cross and Boyd - with no Ward, we had to play Moles.

Anyway. One quarter to go. Let's see what happens - here's hoping I am wrong.

[LostDoggy]

Watching the stats online/listening to the coverage I can't help but think our team was poorly conceived.

With Johnson, Hahn, Akermanis, Murphy, Hill and Hall in the side we are lacking run - a third of the squad plays almost exclusively in the front half. Moles HAD to play. Bringing Addison in to replace Morris is fine...but the balance just looks wrong. Looking that the stats, all the heavy lifting is being left to Cross and Boyd - with no Ward, we had to play Moles.

Anyway. One quarter to go. Let's see what happens - here's hoping I am wrong.

Some more from R Griffen would be very helpful. Wil Minson is almost a liability today.

[mjp]

Some more from R Griffen would be very helpful. Wil Minson is almost a liability today.

But isn't this what Griffen ALWAYS gives us?

Yes, that line breaking running is good, but he is a burst player, not a consistent ball winner...to me, too many forwards, not enough run. I cannot see how Hill plays if Johnno, Higgins and Hahn all play. We need mids.

[Scorlibo]

Drawing Collingwood in the first round would have to be the worst match up possible. I would have prefferred them to play even Geelong or the Saints. I hate going in as the favourite against a good side.

We missed way too many opportunities in the third quarter and I agree mjp we have lacked run, but I'm not convinced that the lack of run was structure induced, I think Collingwood have just been super with blocking our run.

[LostDoggy]

But isn't this what Griffen ALWAYS gives us?

Yes, that line breaking running is good, but he is a burst player, not a consistent ball winner...to me, too many forwards, not enough run. I cannot see how Hill plays if Johnno, Higgins and Hahn all play. We need mids.

Yep agree. Really disappointed with this result today. This might be harsh but I don't think I'd care if I never saw Minson or Addison in a Dogs jumper again. If Wil doesn't give the ball away purely through a skill error he gives it away by being undisciplined. Addison I just don't think is up to it and Williams seems to have zero confidence.

[Dry Rot]

Funny thing is that the Pies kind of used a smaller unpredictable forward line like we used to do, and it worked.

[DOG GOD]

Pretty disappointing. Was sick to death of watching Maxwell, Obrien and Shaw just run free around the backline. If it wasnt for Boyd it wouldve been very nasty.

Just seemed like all the little 1%'s went their way with little kicks, taps, punches. Like to see how many goals they got from inside 30...a big % i'd say.

Hill, Minson and Gia really need a lift cause they gave nothing today.

Really missed Morris on Medhurst.

I am a little concerned how slow our fwd looks when we dont have the ball.

[LostDoggy]

I just don't know what take away from that game? I guess if we don't play four quarters of footy we won't win. Having to come back from 36 points down early just takes it out of you. Has the AFL instructed the commentators to pump Maxwell up? The bloke is a muppet.

[Dry Rot]

Sorry, I thought he and O'Brien were excellent.

[LostDoggy]

Sorry, I thought he and O'Brien were excellent.

Agree on O'Brien but I just think Maxwell got massively pumped up for punching the ball away and taking a mark in front of a shorter opponent. My opinion on Maxwell is not based on this game alone.

[Dry Rot]

mjp's comments about team balance and lack of runners were interesting. We may need a rethink, as we played a full strength side minus Morris and Gia.

[Dry Rot]

My opinion on Maxwell is not based on this game alone.

Fair enough.

[LostDoggy]

mjp's comments about team balance and lack of runners were interesting. We may need a rethink, as we played a full strength side minus Morris and Gia.

Yep balance was definitely out of whack today. Wondering if Tim Callan was available for selection this week? I would have thought he'd have been a better defensive option than Addison. We didn't have Moles last season so we weren't really missing anyone from the engine room today. We went inside 50 20 times for 2 goals in the third quarter so had we converted more opportunities we may have been sitting here typing about a good hard fought win. I think Collingwood's kicks into space behind our defenders killed us today. The other thing that clearly killed us was mistakes in defence.

[LostDoggy]

Yep balance was definitely out of whack today. Wondering if Tim Callan was available for selection this week? I would have thought he'd have been a better defensive option than Addison. We didn't have Moles last season so we weren't really missing anyone from the engine room today. We went inside 50 20 times for 2 goals in the third quarter so had we converted more opportunities we may have been sitting here typing about a good hard fought win. I think Collingwood's kicks into space behind our defenders killed us today. The other thing that clearly killed us was mistakes in defence.

Sorry I forgot Cal Ward! Big out for us in my opinion.

[mjp]

The other thing that clearly killed us was mistakes in defence.

Mistakes in defense come from pressure.

[mjp]

mjp's comments about team balance and lack of runners were interesting. We may need a rethink, as we played a full strength side minus Morris and Gia.

I don't think it is a secret that I am not comfortable with the forward line structure...the NAB Cup didn't really help me figure this out for two reasons:

1/.Extra players - 24 vs 22 is a BIG difference, particularly when we played two extra mids.
2/.No Johnson

Today is one game though and doesn't prove me right...I just cannot see how we can go into the regular season with 6 - 8 players (if you include Gia and Higgins) who play almost exclusively in the front half. I just don't think they can all play in the same side.

I haven't even seen the game yet (see my 'I hate the AFL' thread) so all of this is based on commentary and stats...not a great perspective.

[PaddyWhack]

agree on the comments re: minson having pants removed by l.brown (??!!) - he was putrid (can't believe i am bagging him already??) and the quicker he gets the cameron wight treatment, the better!
i think williams needs to hit the psychiatrist's couch, i have never seen a player with so little confidence in his own abilities.
hargreave mismatch + one of his shockers + no morris (who clearly steers the backline) = debacle in defence.
full marks to the beard for picking up where it left off last year - b.hudson was good too.
BUT it was a cracking game and should bring the boys BTEWAT. roll on next week!

[Hot_Doggies]

Gee we looked slow today.

I still think we are a fast live wire forward and a quick midfielder short.

Not much of that in the reserves either.

[LostDoggy]

Gee we looked slow today.

I still think we are a fast live wire forward and a quick midfielder short.

Not much of that in the reserves either.

I don't think we are a quick midfielder short. There were passages in the midfield today where players like Griffen, Higgins and Cooney linked up and it was very quick. I really don't know what to take out of today. As the game went on we seemed to get really sloppy and just kept giving away cheap free kicks. It seemed that we went to Hall a little too much.

Should we be worried about today?

[vho]

I think Shaggy has got off scot free here, absolutely killed by Medhurst who kicked 4 goals at crucial times. Probably was the difference in swinging the moment back to the pies.

[LostDoggy]

I was sitting in the AFL Members area on Level One today. Surrounded by Pies supporters. Gee, they were acting like they had won the GF. It's a long season.

Why didn't Ward play today?

[Go_Dogs]

So what went wrong today, those who saw the game?

Not enough run, obviously missing Morris is a big loss especially against Collingwood who have a good spread of small options, lack of defensive pressure in the F50?

Like mjp watched most of the game through the AFL Live game tracker, so can't really comment on much - but it seems we need to work on our forward line, get some more defensive pressure, and also restructure it in a way that allows more players to have a run through the middle.

How much time did Aker and Johnno spend exclusively forward? And what about Higgins?

[mjp]

Why didn't Ward play today?

I thought he was injured (groin?) and was always going to be up against it...

[Rance Fan]

Higgins, Hill, Hargrave, Harbrow were fairly ordinary today- well i expected more!. Ruckmen frees poor. Johnno and Aker looked slow.
Williams very shakey lucky he played on Cloke.
Hall,Everitt,Picken,Hahn, Cross and Griff ok, Cooney good, Boyd great.
Gia not alot, Addison just a tryer.
Missed Morris and would of liked Moles in.
Oh well early in the season and might of needed the reality check.
Hope we bounce back hard next week

[LostDoggy]

When I think about it now, we miss a player like Eagleton in the side. A player that can run and carry and has a long penetrating kick.

[cinder]

Definitely agree that we missed Morris, the backline seemed to collapse without him. Williams was disappointing, Lake probably held his own and even kicked a goal. No real stand outs other than Boyd and Hahn - and Murph. Hall wasn't as good as he has been but didn't get as many opportunities either. Don't think Johnno should have played.

Like they said, round 1 is a lot different to NAB Cup, sadly.

I hate losing to Collingwood.

[GVGjr]

We were a fair way off the mark all day, every time we got a run on they countered with successive goals.
Their small forward line worked well.

[Go_Dogs]

Just looking at the stats, they were slightly ahead in possessions, we beat then in contested possessions by 3, and we had 8 more clearances, 4 more contested marks, they had 12 more tackles, better disposal efficiency (which I'm not sure what it means, as I don't really know how they evaluate it anyway), and I50's were identical.

I'm guessing not enough work rate, and poor decision making/disposal.

Something we should definitely be able to bounce back from, and we really need to focus and go out looking for a big percentage booster next week.

[BulldogBelle]

At least we are playing Richmond next week ;-)

My thoughts


In the first quarter Collingwood were far harder at the ball, and they ran much harder into space, and put immense pressure on us everytime we had the ball
Coming back from a 5-6 goal defecit was very hard work, and used a lot of energy, and I'm happy we showed that we could push ourselves back into the game.
We kicked to, and looked for Hall far to many times
Having Minson and Hall int he forward line doesnt work, especially when they have Johnson, Hahn, Gia etc surrounding them- not exactly the quickest guys in the league
Not having anyone at Hall's feet / drop of the ball
Boyd's ability to find the ball was amazing, Cross didnt stop trying, Hudson was impressive when he wasnt giving away free kicks, Gilbee was good, as was Harbrow (albeit he didnt have a chance to attack / rebound very much today)
At the other end of the scale, Williams was really down on confidence- especially when the ball hit the ground, and the pace of the game was a little quick for him
Addison tried hard but didnt offer us much
Basicaly we were out run, and played against a much more physical team who simply were more hungry for the ball. Our skills were sharp as a knife at times, and later blunt as a stone


Its awazing what two weeks can make, to the team and to this forum

We have Ward, Eagleton, Morris & Moles as possible additions to the team next week (injury permitting for some of them)

[ledge]

We fell into our hold habit of booting the ball into pockets, like we never recruited Hall.
Stop and started in backline when clearing which is a major giveaway we are in trouble.

What was with us giving Collingwood a wing all to themselves today?

Hall I thought did what he could, wasnt given enough help or looked for on the right occasions.

Murphy was trying to play up forward and down back (the old Chris Grant fill the problem area role).

[The Bulldogs Bite]

So what went wrong today, those who saw the game?

Everything.

Our defensive pressure and accountability was extremely poor for most of the match. Collingwood were streaming out of defence and spotted up free players through the midfield and particularly up forward at will. For some reason, our players tried to 'zone' by playing 15m in front of their opponent. All Collingwood did was run, carry and kick it over our head. We were continually out of position and as a result, often out muscled.

It's a long year - but this is a dreadful performance from a club aspiring to win a Premiership. Losing is part of the game - but getting belted isn't a good sign. Hell - Geelong and St. Kilda didn't play all that well, but did enough to win. We were spanked.

Looked very slow and were clueless as to how to beat their zones. Really frustrating to see us bomb the ball forward almost every time we got our hands on the footy forward of the center.

Boyd racked up the possessions but was poor. He turned it over and rarely looked to pick out an option going forward. Fumbled a bit too.

Cross was shocking. Spent more time on the ground than he did running. Fumbled, played from behind, was easily brushed aside and bombed the ball.

I have concerns over Gilbee and Harbrow and whether or not they can regain touch. Both look very ordinary by foot and it's costing us.

Malthouse seems to have the 'tactical wood' over Eade. Our players have been unable to adjust but full credit to Collingwood - very well drilled. Out played us and proved they're a very, very good football side.

* Murphy the only positive for mine. Made smart decisions, moved well, took some strong marks and hit his targets as both a lead-up CHF and across the back flank.

[Rance Fan]

I think we were out-coached. Pies were set for the game we were thinking that we are the golden team. Just turn up and win. Got jumped AGAIN by Collingwood....then played catchup all day. Needed to be switched on, smarter, play more tempo footy.

[choconmientay]

I thought the tide turned against us when we (if i can recall correctly it was Gilbee) missed an easy kick at goal and only scored a behind. That should have put us in front and build up some momentum going into the last quarter.

Hudson was pretty good in the Ruck.
Minson had a really bad day.

Some good signs between Johno and Berry Hall. They seems to understand each other quite well.
Boyd and Higgins were good. All the others were at most really average.

We shouldn't just pump the ball forward to Hall as this is to obvious. They were marking him with at least 2 defenders all the times.

For me, the game was a wake up call to all the players as the competitors are tough and a reminder for all of us that there is still a long way to go for our team.

[LostDoggy]

Besides the problems above, I thought we missed Morris a lot today, gives that stability down back and wouldn't of resulted in that little skunk who never hassles us kicking 4,

[The Pie Man]

Does anyone know why Boyd was wearing a black armband today?

I've seen a few posts mention he was good today - 38 touches would suggest he was, but they were at 58% efficiency, and honestly I didn't think he was 'on' today (which makes me curious re: black armband)

Tom Williams' ball handling is of real concern.

Sliding door moment - Higgins handball to Gilbee in the 3rd, Lyndsay misses what would be a go ahead goal....momentum's a wonderful thing in footy when you can ride it.

Just didn't look up for it, which for round one and your captain's 350th is just weird really. Still, I bet Geelong didn't mind losing round 1 2007 to us considering how the year panned out.

[LostDoggy]

I thought we were comprehensively beaten out of the middle
We fumbled the ball in close a lot
We had players fall over rather than keep their feet
At times we used the ball badly into the forward line, missing targets or kicking up and under.
The Pies killed us for getting the ball off packs and scoring or setting up scoring opportunities.
In terms of keepings off, when the Pies got the ball in our forward line, you always thought they could go the length of the ground to score. It seemed we played off their players a lot.

[The Pie Man]

Everything.

Our defensive pressure and accountability was extremely poor for most of the match. Collingwood were streaming out of defence and spotted up free players through the midfield and particularly up forward at will. For some reason, our players tried to 'zone' by playing 15m in front of their opponent. All Collingwood did was run, carry and kick it over our head. We were continually out of position and as a result, often out muscled.

It's a long year - but this is a dreadful performance from a club aspiring to win a Premiership. Losing is part of the game - but getting belted isn't a good sign. Hell - Geelong and St. Kilda didn't play all that well, but did enough to win. We were spanked.

Looked very slow and were clueless as to how to beat their zones. Really frustrating to see us bomb the ball forward almost every time we got our hands on the footy forward of the center.

Boyd racked up the possessions but was poor. He turned it over and rarely looked to pick out an option going forward. Fumbled a bit too.

Cross was shocking. Spent more time on the ground than he did running. Fumbled, played from behind, was easily brushed aside and bombed the ball.

I have concerns over Gilbee and Harbrow and whether or not they can regain touch. Both look very ordinary by foot and it's costing us.

Malthouse seems to have the 'tactical wood' over Eade. Our players have been unable to adjust but full credit to Collingwood - very well drilled. Out played us and proved they're a very, very good football side.

* Murphy the only positive for mine. Made smart decisions, moved well, took some strong marks and hit his targets as both a lead-up CHF and across the back flank.

Agree with plenty of that - Harbrow kicking out from FB doesn't fill me with confidence either.

Their forwards got a few cheapys hanging back from the midfield contest relying on their mids to win possession, which for 3 quarters of the game they did.

On to next week!

[Bulldog Joe]

Ward has a groin - may need to be managed for a while.

[Go_Dogs]

Everything.

Ouch. Doesn't paint a pretty picture at all. Looks like we resulted to that familiar style under serious pressure.

[AndrewP6]

God, what a disheartening performance. I know it's only Rd 1, and there's a whole lot of footy left, but that was awful. At times it looked like the Bulldogs of old (and I mean 2003-4). We're gonna struggle to win playing at about 50% in games. Some other thoughts:

*Boyd was great, we'd have lost by 12 goals if not for his work in the middle.
* Hall, I thought did well considering the help (or lack of) he had.
* Williams just dreadful. For such an important role, we're in strife if his form is going to yo-yo like that.
* Admittedly Morris is a big out for us, but the backline was at times clueless. Pies players just cruising through to loose balls, and marking inside 50 with no one within a mile of them. We can't have patches of defensive intensity, then leave the door open.
* Pies were so much better at maximising opportunities. I see this as a real weakness of ours.
* We had no idea what to do with their pressure. How many times, when confronted by a Pies player, were our guys caught out, and not even making a bad decision, just not making ANY...
* Johnno and Aker looked slow today. Aker had a few good touches, Johnno should never have played.

[angelopetraglia]

The difference for me was the backline.

Their backline was sensational and ours was terrible. Lake was out of the hot spot due to some good coaching from Collingwood and their smalls destroyed us. Williams was all at sea when the ball hit the ground. We let in too many soft goals, reminded me of Dogs circa 2005-2007. Good on the attack but leaks like a sieve.

Their backline, led by Harry and Maxwell were just brilliant. Tenacious. Did not give an inch and provided run.

[Pickenitup]

I know its tough to say after a Terrible loss like this but it may prove a blessing in disguise that
we arent the only team that can win the Flag and go under the radar let The Pies fans think they have the flag We Will Bounce back from this

[Hotdog60]

Why didn't Ward play today?

Ward just over the groin injury and then had a flu bug I thought, so I'd say he was rested.

[Hot_Doggies]

What was William's trying to do one out with Medhurst on the wing in the 2nd qrter?

He had no idea!

[soupman]

Very dissapointing performance. Collingwood played very well, and we were very average.

My observations:

-We lacked a willingness to run and support today. Watching Collingwood it seemed they had extra players on the field because wherever the footy went they had the numbers. So often today we got caught loooking for the hands out the back, not seeing anyone there and then having to try and shrug a tackle. On top of this there were numerous times, particularly with the kick outs, when nobody would lead or work to offer something for the disposing player. This meant we almost always went to 50-50 contests.

-Our disposal and decision making was dissapointing. Normally we are a lot more efficient than that. A lot of our kicks needed to be flatter, or more to our players advantage.

-Our forwards need to play in front. Matthew Boyd and Adam Cooney were winning centre clearance after centre clearance, but these rarely amounted to anything because our players were starting too far behind their opponents who could meet the footy when it invariably dropped short. We needed our player to be in front to at least give a contest.

With Individual players:

-Tom Williams. I actually thought Williams wasn't too far off a good game. He had three things that worked against him: His hands under pressure, his constant dropping of marks and his average disposal by foot today. However, I feel the latter two are usually pretty good and I can put them down to a bad day. I'm pleased to see he actually flew for marks today and backed himself in. Even Lake wasn't taking them today so Williams wasn't alone here. His most pressing problem is that he tends to panic under pressure, but as yet I'm not sure how to fix this. But really, Cloke had no impact and Williams showed again that he could be alright.

-Andrejs Everitt. Possibly the biggest positive from today. Used the ball well by foot, got himself in good positions, and looked dangerous. Also wasn't obviously beaten by anybody. I think he'll have a good season.

-Will Minson. Surely that would have to be one of the worst games he's ever played. It's hard to continue calling Leigh Brown a spud when Will plays like a potato. Usually his disposal by foot is good and his ruckwork is pretty good also. Today he looks slow and cumbersome, couldn't mark a thing and his diposal was woeful. I was very dissapointed with his performance and felt he was a leading candidate for worst on ground.

[alwaysadog]

I thought we were comprehensively beaten out of the middle
We fumbled the ball in close a lot
We had players fall over rather than keep their feet
At times we used the ball badly into the forward line, missing targets or kicking up and under.
The Pies killed us for getting the ball off packs and scoring or setting up scoring opportunities.
In terms of keepings off, when the Pies got the ball in our forward line, you always thought they could go the length of the ground to score. It seemed we played off their players a lot.

Agree with you metal, the stats for clearances etc might suggest otherwise but they won't show how regularly we fumbled ball we had won, nor how easily they hunted and dispossessed us. The number of goals they scored from turnovers should show it.

The inconsistent old bulldogs ala West Coast late last season were back in force today. You can't tell if the players have turned up ready for a pressure game or for an extended smoko. They went back to work briefly in the second and early third quarters, but pretty soon drifted back to the lunch room.

It's not a critical loss, we lost the first two games in 1954, but having won the respect of most of the scribes and opposition supporters, something that is very grudgingly afforded us, we put in a shocker like that and now have to win back that respect. More importantly other sides that would have approached a game against us with some trepidation will walk taller and fancy their chances more - so once again we have made the going more heavy than it needs to be.

[Happy Days]

Really dissapointing.

Our inability to deal with Collingwood's forward pressure, whilst it was sensational, was very poor, especially considering the supposed elite foot skills of our backmen. Gilbee and Harbrow were particularly dissapointing. What about Gilbee's miss in the 3rd? You would expect an average kick to nail that, let alone Gilbs.

Back on to their forward pressure, I think we attributed to it a bit, as I felt we were sluggish with our kick-ins. West Coast showed last night early in their game that the best way to deal with a press is to kick it long and fast. We seemed to complacent to try to worm our way out of defence, and often we got caught on it.

Conversly, our forward pressure, which was so good in the NAB Cup, was woeful. We simply could not contain the ball, which meant that Shaw could cut us to shreds on the rebound. Also, why did we not play in front. I reckon at least 10 times we were caught out of position in that second half, and it really cost us.

Collingwood were just too good for us today.

[DOG GOD]

Obviously watching on tv isnt the best as being there, but it seemed that our fwd 50 was always clogged and theirs was so open it wasnt funny.

Shaw, Maxwell and O'Brien worked so well together and it amuses me why we continually left Shaw untagged, just as we did last year.

Their pressure was enormous and we made fundamental errors of a team with no time to think. Bombing kicks into the 50, and even from defense out of the 50. Yes Boyd was good but with over 30 possies and a supercoach score of only 80 odd says alot of how he used the ball.

Couldnt believe how slow our fwd line looked in their defensive pressure. Totally killed thru the middle of the ground for most of the game. Having the bigger body of Moles wouldve been nice in there.
Cooney, Griffen and Higgens showed patches but we cant expect to beat the pies with only patches of good footy. Williams was like a rabbit in headlights on occassions and will really need to get his mojo back quickly.

Thanks god its rd 1 and not rd 22 coz we dont wanna a performance like that again for a LONG time if we are to be a chance this year.

[alwaysadog]

I know its tough to say after a Terrible loss like this but it may prove a blessing in disguise that
we arent the only team that can win the Flag and go under the radar let The Pies fans think they have the flag We Will Bounce back from this

Yes Pickenitup, if there's any good to come out of this it's that others will believe that "the Premiership is a cakewalk" but we now know differently and it should help to drive out from our players the complacency that was evident.

The message is that if we don't play at out best for the whole games we will be humbled: efforts like today's are no longer acceptable, mediocrity is not an option.

If the players are as honest and as committed as we have been led to believe then they should apologise to our fans.

[LostDoggy]

Terrible performance, and i am not really ready to single out any players.

The team knows how they need to perform week in & week out, obviously today wasn't one of them. I always knew this was going to be a danger game, the flag isn't a walk in the park (although everyone who posts here knows that).

I turned to my Dad today and said 'I told you', hopefully it opens up the players eyes now & they can see the bigger picture. Turn up to play every week, or you are going to get your behind handed to you. The fairytale pre season wins & cup success are gone, it's the real stuff now & today they looked like a team not ready to be contenders.

Time to stand up dogs, i know you area ready for a Premiership tilt.

[G-Mo77]

Really disappointed with the boys today. It was one of those cases when you fall into a 6 goal hole it is always tough to get out of it. The miss by Gilbee in the 3rd was a real changing point he kicks that I really think we would have won this game. Collingwood get a few goals and all of a sudden we are down by 20 points again. We can't afford to have those first quarter lapses especially against such a good side.

I thought our midfield played some pretty dumb football at times. Collingwood space the packs in stoppages quite wide and constantly Bulldogs players were sucked in and leaving men free. I know you have to help out teammates when the ball is there to be one but you also have to be smart about it.

Our defence was beaten pretty convincingly IMO. I thought Lake was woeful today he really needed to stand up with Morris out. Shaggy was beaten by Medhurst. Not a good match up for him though with the glove there Medhurst barely gets a touch. Williams had a very ordinary night, poor disposal and really lost all confidence in himself as the game wore on. Hopefully he'll forget it very quickly. Harbrow was off as well.

Murphy was a star tonight and BOG IMO. Boyd was fantastic all night. Hall did his job, Cross and Higgins held there own and I also thought Hudson was very good. Apart from them not much else to discuss. A lot of passengers today. I don't think there is a lot to worry about though. It's Round 1 and there are 21 games to go plenty of time to iron out those creases.

[Jasper]

What happened to Tommy Williams today? He just seemed off the mark by a mile. He dropped a few easy uncontested marks and his kicking wasnt great. Hope Morris doesnt miss any more games because from todays result I think it shows how important he really is.

[mighty_west]

Very dissapointing performance. Collingwood played very well, and we were very average.

My observations:

-We lacked a willingness to run and support today. Watching Collingwood it seemed they had extra players on the field because wherever the footy went they had the numbers. So often today we got caught loooking for the hands out the back, not seeing anyone there and then having to try and shrug a tackle. On top of this there were numerous times, particularly with the kick outs, when nobody would lead or work to offer something for the disposing player. This meant we almost always went to 50-50 contests.

-Our disposal and decision making was dissapointing. Normally we are a lot more efficient than that. A lot of our kicks needed to be flatter, or more to our players advantage.

-Our forwards need to play in front. Matthew Boyd and Adam Cooney were winning centre clearance after centre clearance, but these rarely amounted to anything because our players were starting too far behind their opponents who could meet the footy when it invariably dropped short. We needed our player to be in front to at least give a contest.

With Individual players:

-Tom Williams. I actually thought Williams wasn't too far off a good game. He had three things that worked against him: His hands under pressure, his constant dropping of marks and his average disposal by foot today. However, I feel the latter two are usually pretty good and I can put them down to a bad day. I'm pleased to see he actually flew for marks today and backed himself in. Even Lake wasn't taking them today so Williams wasn't alone here. His most pressing problem is that he tends to panic under pressure, but as yet I'm not sure how to fix this. But really, Cloke had no impact and Williams showed again that he could be alright.

-Andrejs Everitt. Possibly the biggest positive from today. Used the ball well by foot, got himself in good positions, and looked dangerous. Also wasn't obviously beaten by anybody. I think he'll have a good season.

-Will Minson. Surely that would have to be one of the worst games he's ever played. It's hard to continue calling Leigh Brown a spud when Will plays like a potato. Usually his disposal by foot is good and his ruckwork is pretty good also. Today he looks slow and cumbersome, couldn't mark a thing and his diposal was woeful. I was very dissapointed with his performance and felt he was a leading candidate for worst on ground.

Agree with everything you say.

That was Minsons worst performance in a long time, he was terrible, i don;t know if dropping him would be the right way to go, but Roughead always dominated Tyrone Vickory at under 18 level, could be worth a look at, that said, you would have to back Minson against either Vickory or Simmonds.

Unfortunatly, when Williams has a shocker, everyone seems to want his head, yet he is vital to our structure, who else do we have that could play a key position down back? Boumann needs to pull his head in & Mulligan is a long way off, Markovic could be a show, but his lack of pace could be a worry & Everitt is simply not a key possie player.

Morris was a big loss for us, i can't remember too many times both Davis & Didak have been given so much space.

The big positive was Cooney and his knee, at first, he grabbed at it, and it didn't look good what so ever, fortunatly he seemed ok and came back on, but had it iced up after the game, let's hope he is given the all clear.

[G-Mo77]

The big positive was Cooney and his knee, at first, he grabbed at it, and it didn't look good what so ever, fortunatly he seemed ok and came back on, but had it iced up after the game, let's hope he is given the all clear.

Got the all clear on the radio.

[Remi Moses]

Haven't seen all the game yet {Most of The Second Half] We distinctly got this wrong at the selection table Not enough run. We've troubled The Pies over the journey with our Run and yet we didn't have enough on the park. Need Morris back urgently [Rocket said he had a fever] have to pick Ward and Moles next week. I don't think you play underdone players in Round 1 even if they are top footballers. As for Williams he really has to eliminate this panic play out of his play,I think he broke even with Cloke [They were as bad as each other] Big Bonus is that the Over Hype baton has gone back to it's original and longstanding owner COLLINGWOOD

[BulldogBelle]

Hope Morris doesnt miss any more games because from todays result I think it shows how important he really is.

Welcome to WOOF Dogs101. :)

As soon as I heard that Morris was out of the side - I just had this awful feeling that things wouldn't go our way today. He is super important to our side and fingers crossed he is right for next week.

[Remi Moses]

Welcome to WOOF Dogs101. :)

As soon as I heard that Morris was out of the side - I just had this awful feeling that things wouldn't go our way today. He is super important to our side and fingers crossed he is right for next week.

Thought the same looked to the skies and thought ''Oh F***'':(

[wend1604]

I agree with a lot of what has already been said. We sorely missed Dale Morris today.

Harry O'Brien seemed to have nobody on him for most of the match and just had the run of the field.

Moles should have played, and I don't think Johnson should have. (Sorry Suz32! ;) )

I think Murph was one of our better players. How good is he?

[G-Mo77]

Did anyone see what happened with Shaggy and Medhurst? Couldn't see what happened from were I was sitting. Should we be worried?

[craigsahibee]

Thanks for that, I will record.

Ryan HARGRAVE is the Bulldog player you were referencing.

Dogs by 1
BOG: Cooney
First goal: Johnson

I can't believe I called Shaggy, Hargraves

[AndrewP6]

Agree with everything you say.



Unfortunatly, when Williams has a shocker, everyone seems to want his head, yet he is vital to our structure, who else do we have that could play a key position down back? Boumann needs to pull his head in & Mulligan is a long way off, Markovic could be a show, but his lack of pace could be a worry & Everitt is simply not a key possie player.


A big problem for us, IMO. I've been a Tommy fan, but I'm going off him a bit. Either can't stay on the paddock, or looks shit scared when he is. Hope to god he improves.

[Jasper]

I think Murph was one of our better players. How good is he?

Couldnt agree more! Murph is so underrated. Just hope he can have a full 2010 without any injuries that he has carried in the past.

[AndrewP6]

Just off topic ('cause the topic is p*****g me off!)... Before the game, I passed Jamason Daniels, Stackalicious, and Paul Dimattina...

[LostDoggy]

Does anyone know what the clearances were like?
I was at the game and everytime it looked like we were going to get a clearance, we just fumbled it and the pies pounced on the footy and made us pay big time! And what happened to the tackling pressure that we applied SO WELL in our nab cup matches! There was minimal today...
We were our own worst enemy this arvo imo...

[Mantis]

I know you can't tell much from 2 minutes of highlights, but Collingwood seemed to kick a number of 'soft' goals. I guess once I have seen the game I can look for the lead up work, but it seemd Didak and Davis were un-apposed on quite a few occassions.

Never good to lose the first one, but there is still plenty of time to re-find our mojo.

[EasternWest]

-Will Minson. Surely that would have to be one of the worst games he's ever played. It's hard to continue calling Leigh Brown a spud when Will plays like a potato. Usually his disposal by foot is good and his ruckwork is pretty good also. Today he looks slow and cumbersome, couldn't mark a thing and his diposal was woeful. I was very dissapointed with his performance and felt he was a leading candidate for worst on ground.

I actually thought Leigh Brown was really good for them today. Not so much his play, but his demented aggression caused a few of our players to second guess themselves, which was a big asset for them.

Look, I'm not pleased by how we played, but there seems to be some observations here that are predicting doom and gloom. I think we were simply outplayed and outcoached by a team that was more up for the game than us.

We weren't great, sure, but that's part of footy. The challenge now lies with our coaches and players to assess where we were caught short and rectify it.

For mine, I rate Collingwood. They don't have as much talent as some of the better teams, but they work hard. I think that Malthouse gets the best out of his players (see above comment re: Leigh Brown) and they're always good to go.

Anyway, shoot me down or what have you but I for one am not too concerned. We got beaten by a good team, one that will surely go close to top four, and it's up to us to respond next week.

Oh, FWIW I thought Murphy was good for us. Boyd's disposal let him down a bit, but his ability to get his hands on it is amazing and the rate with which he disposes of it is incredible. And I thought Everitt tried hard enough to hold his spot. Some of our other guys had games to forget (as have already been discussed by plenty of others) but hopefully they can assess them and forget them.

It's a long road. Hold fast!;)

[LostDoggy]

A big problem for us, IMO. I've been a Tommy fan, but I'm going off him a bit. Either can't stay on the paddock, or looks shit scared when he is. Hope to god he improves.

Still confident he will improve, but he did make a lot of mistakes today.

Our back line was very inexperienced when you look at it, Williams, Everitt & Addison all down there to start the game. Between the 3 of them, there would only be about 100 games of footy under there belt. Really hits home at how much Morris is missed, and how much footy the likes of Williams, Everitt etc.. still need.

[ledge]

I have a question with what looked like a mark by a collingwood player in our goal square but was called a point, shouldnt it have been a mark or a goal? how was it a point?

[BulldogBelle]

I agree with much of what has been written here already, but it seemed to me that we lacked the application the Pies had in terms of getting players around contested situations. It just seemed to me that the Pies always had 1 or 2 out the back and a couple out the side and the front of the packs. It was as if they had more blokes on the field. We on the other hand, struggled to clear out of traffic because we didn't have teammates sitting behind and outside contests ready to receive and clear.
I think the only guys that can hold their heads up for a good performance today were Murphy and Everitt. All our other players were down on their usually high standards in one way or another.
I think we lacked another inside midfielder today, (Ward to come straight back in when fit), and an outside receiver which means Eagle should come straight in as well. I think we missed Eagle as too often we were lacking a player who was able to sit outside in space , link up in chains of play and cover some metres with penetrating kicks.
It is only round 1 and may be a glitch, but geez its frustrating that we are a serious premiership contender and yet still susceptible to these types of losses.... I mean Collingwood were the better team today and hungrier, but we are not a 6 goals worse side than them.

[The Pie Man]

I have a question with what looked like a mark by a collingwood player in our goal square but was called a point, shouldnt it have been a mark or a goal? how was it a point?

That was either touched off the boot and therefore never a mark (and then a point when he strayed over the goal line) or when the ball was 'caught' it was deemed to have not travelled the required distance, and then the player has backed over the line and out of play, conceding a rushed behind.

I too was (and remain) confused by the incident

[EasternWest]

[/B] I mean Collingwood were the better team today and hungrier, but we are not a 6 goals worse side than them.[/B]

I'd probably agree with this. Well said.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I know you can't tell much from 2 minutes of highlights, but Collingwood seemed to kick a number of 'soft' goals. I guess once I have seen the game I can look for the lead up work, but it seemd Didak and Davis were un-apposed on quite a few occassions.

Never good to lose the first one, but there is still plenty of time to re-find our mojo.

I think the most annoying thing about today is that we were five goals down at quarter time. We simply can't allow those kind of lapses if we're to improve on the previous two seasons. Rarely do Geelong/Saints conceed 4-6 goal leads. We do far too often.

Why?

I'm irritated this issue still hasn't been addressed. I don't expect to be 'up' for 22-26 weeks of the season, but putting that kind of performance out on Round 1 is a worry. It coincides with the group's need to be given a spray to get them working harder, too. It happened v Brisbane in the NAB Cup, against Port Adelaide and then again today.

It'd be interesting to know what the mentality of the group was like before and during the game.

More importantly - how do you fix it? Major problem for what is lauded as a mature group IMO.

[Bulldog Joe]

That was either touched off the boot and therefore never a mark (and then a point when he strayed over the goal line) or when the ball was 'caught' it was deemed to have not travelled the required distance, and then the player has backed over the line and out of play, conceding a rushed behind.

I too was (and remain) confused by the incident

If that is the one in the last the central umpire called it touched off the boot.

[LostDoggy]

Gilbee, Minson and Addison should be omitted next week.

[Mantis]

It'd be interesting to know what the mentality of the group was like before and during the game.

More importantly - how do you fix it? Major problem for what is lauded as a mature group IMO.

Before the QF last year the playing group was full of confidence coming off 3 good wins and turned in a stinker. The coaching staff gave it to the players after that game and we came out in the next 2 weeks and put in strong & committed performances.

Perhaps after a strong NAB Cup campaign the playing group were feeling pretty good about themselves and played accordingly?

* As I haven't seen the game I am just speculating, but watching the highlights I saw that when Hall kicked his first in the 1st qtr we were just points down (20 to 25) so we must have been ok for atleast some of the 1st qtr.

[Doc26]

Ward just over the groin injury and then had a flu bug I thought, so I'd say he was rested.

Cal is missing due to strained stomach muscles and not OP on this occasion.



Cross was shocking. Spent more time on the ground than he did running. Fumbled, played from behind, was easily brushed aside and bombed the ball.



Unfortunately have to agree with you with the Cross summation. Crossy's as determined as they come and gets loads of the ball, due largely to his endurance and tenacity, but isn't hurting the opposition as a midfielder must. Falls to ground too easily and is a bad habit that seems to have got worse. Hopefully some extra game time might help him as to be fair to him he is coming off two ankle recos over the pre season and is amazing that he's even out there.

Turnovers were the order of the day. Can recall hearing that 12 of Collingwood's 15 goals (whenever that was) originated from Bulldog turnovers. Our decisions under pressure were wanting with the usual suspects at the forefront. Accountability was also lacking. Heath Shaw and Harry O'Brien must wonder what all the fuss is about our boys.

Fortunately there's at least 21 weeks to redeem ourselves.

Thought Murphy, Cooney and Boyd were great. Aker was also solid and clean as always.

[The Pie Man]

Perhaps after a strong NAB Cup campaign the playing group were feeling pretty good about themselves and played accordingly?

It looked like it - yourself & dfa4pm have mentioned it's a long season and not to get too down about this, and I 100% agree, but this perceived (from my perspective) need for a spray remains a concern for me


* As I haven't seen the game I am just speculating, but watching the highlights I saw that when Hall kicked his first in the 1st qtr we were just points down (20 to 25) so we must have been ok for atleast some of the 1st qtr.

Collingwood kicked the next 5 goals of the game, we went completely missing for about 15 minutes

[Mantis]

Who did Picken play on?

He only had 9 touches and as yet hasn't come under any scrutiny for his performance.

[Doc26]

Who did Picken play on?

He only had 9 touches and as yet hasn't come under any scrutiny for his performance.

Played on Lockyer for most of the match and did a fair job of it. Certainly wasn't one of our worst performers. Also scored a handy goal.

[aker39]

It has been mentioned many times already, but Morris not playing was a big loss.
I read that it was up to Johnno whether he played or not. If that was the case, he made a very selfish decision and should never have played.
As for Josh Hill, well he may as well have not played.
Finally, I heard a stat on the radio that summed up our day. 12 of Collingwoods 1st 15 goals were from our turnovers.

[SonofScray]

Before the QF last year the playing group was full of confidence coming off 3 good wins and turned in a stinker. The coaching staff gave it to the players after that game and we came out in the next 2 weeks and put in strong & committed performances.

Perhaps after a strong NAB Cup campaign the playing group were feeling pretty good about themselves and played accordingly?

* As I haven't seen the game I am just speculating, but watching the highlights I saw that when Hall kicked his first in the 1st qtr we were just points down (20 to 25) so we must have been ok for atleast some of the 1st qtr.

Thats the vibe I am getting, mixed with a few passengers due to match fitness/injury (looking at Johnno and Will mostly) Not going to hang them out to dry but they were off the boil.

[giaco]

Murphy and Everitt. All our other players were down on their usually high standards in one way or another.


I was agreeing with you until here. Everitt? What about Boyd? Kept us in it for the first half. Was out on his feet in the second but still kept going, made a few errors, through sheer exhaustion I think.

For me Boyd and Murphy - great.

Cooney, Cross, Hall, Hudson - ok.

The rest pretty ordinary but I'll give Johnno some slack.

[LostDoggy]

Murphy was brilliant and kept us in the game, Boyd worked hard, Cooney, Cross and Griffin chipped in - but there were some big names that put in a shocker - starting with Minson, was he playing for the opposition today? Lake - very quiet for such a well paid player. Gilbee - seems to have lost his foot skills over the past 12 months. That bad miss was definitely the end of any momentum we had to take the lead. Addison - would have been better with Tim Callan - is he on the injury list? Johno did not play to his standards and should not have played.

Some positives - we were missing Morris (AA Defender) Ward, Rising Star Nominee, Brodie Moles who really showed something during the NAB and could be a handy pick up, and (drum roll) the Eagle who showed why the players still rated him and wanted him to play on for another year. It is a reality check that we had to have.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I agree with much of what has been written here already, but it seemed to me that we lacked the application the Pies had in terms of getting players around contested situations. It just seemed to me that the Pies always had 1 or 2 out the back and a couple out the side and the front of the packs. It was as if they had more blokes on the field. We on the other hand, struggled to clear out of traffic because we didn't have teammates sitting behind and outside contests ready to receive and clear.
I think the only guys that can hold their heads up for a good performance today were Murphy and Everitt. All our other players were down on their usually high standards in one way or another.
I think we lacked another inside midfielder today, (Ward to come straight back in when fit), and an outside receiver which means Eagle should come straight in as well. I think we missed Eagle as too often we were lacking a player who was able to sit outside in space , link up in chains of play and cover some metres with penetrating kicks.
It is only round 1 and may be a glitch, but geez its frustrating that we are a serious premiership contender and yet still susceptible to these types of losses.... I mean Collingwood were the better team today and hungrier, but we are not a 6 goals worse side than them.

In fairness Collingwood were clearly a six goals better team today. If you have more better players in your team on the day then you invariably win the game. Collingwood had far more better players than us on the day.
Great to see Robert Murphy perform so well now that he is fully fit. Still trying to work out why we persist with Everitt on the backline. Hargrave on Medhurst was a poor match up. Gia as a supposed future captain was most disappointing.
Centre half back still remains a major problem with Tom Williams lacking the class required to hold this position down. Dylan Addison is clearly not good enough. Easton Wood would have been better. The team lacked the steadiness and poise of Morris in defence, whilst Callan Ward with his attack on the ball saw us struggle in the midfield.
The big worry for the Bulldogs is the lack of depth when you lose good players like Morris and Ward.

[Doc26]

Hey Da Druid, noticed Josh Fraser have a crack at you. What was going on there ? Did you send him some words of encouragement ;) ?

[The Underdog]

I can't believe I called Shaggy, Hargraves

Why not? If Tony Leonard can do it all day. He's a professional football commentator and a Dogs supporter.

[The Underdog]

I know you can't tell much from 2 minutes of highlights, but Collingwood seemed to kick a number of 'soft' goals. I guess once I have seen the game I can look for the lead up work, but it seemd Didak and Davis were un-apposed on quite a few occassions.

Never good to lose the first one, but there is still plenty of time to re-find our mojo.

At one stage they had 15 goals and 12 were as a result of our turnovers.

[Sedat]

Our defensive pressure and accountability was extremely poor for most of the match. Collingwood were streaming out of defence and spotted up free players through the midfield and particularly up forward at will.
Didn't get to the game today (and safe to say I won't be watching the replay) but I'm not surprised that our defensive pressure has been listed as one of the main reasons we were so poor today.

I know it's a long year but statements made at the start of the season set the tone for the remainder of that season. If our players were self-satisfied with a successful pre-season campaign and did not turn up with the necessary defensive frame of mind today (as has been alluded to), that is really disappointing. Conceding 8 goals in our first qtr of football for the year, and 33 scoring shots for the match, are numbers that would have our coaching staff tearing their hair out. Disappointing that we got into a shootout with a well-drilled team - we rarely beat even half-decent teams (ie: Carlton) when adopting such a game style. Hopefully we can find that balance between breakneck attack and uncompromising defence in the coming weeks.

[Doc26]

At one stage they had 15 goals and 12 were as a result of our turnovers.

And they were only Tom's ;)

[LostDoggy]

.... I mean Collingwood were the better team today and hungrier, but we are not a 6 goals worse side than them.

Totally agree, we are not a 6 goal worse side than the Pies! I think today was perhaps in part a total reality check for all of us? Did the boys get a little bit ahead of themselves in their headspace? I guess the proof for all of us will be the way the group rebound, next week, and the week after, etc., etc. It was disappointing to start the season this way - I guess I don't have to worry too much about basking in euphoria or keeping a lid on it anymore! :D It's just down to normal business, toughnin it out as a dedicated dog supporter!

[BulldogBelle]

Does anyone know what the clearances were like?
I was at the game and everytime it looked like we were going to get a clearance, we just fumbled it and the pies pounced on the footy and made us pay big time! And what happened to the tackling pressure that we applied SO WELL in our nab cup matches! There was minimal today...
We were our own worst enemy this arvo imo...

Good point about lack of tackling - I guess it is all part of a lack of intensity/confidence.

I didn't like having Huddo, Willy and Hall all on together esp as Willy had a shocker. Made us too slow

Tommy had a shocker too - one of the commentators picked up that he was not playing with confidence. Shaggy and Harbrow disappointing but so were most of them.

Good to get that one out of the way.

[Stefcep]

Actually 6 goals flattered us. They missed a lot of sitters.

[mjp]

-Tom Williams. I actually thought Williams wasn't too far off a good game. He had three things that worked against him: His hands under pressure, his constant dropping of marks and his average disposal by foot today.

Not having a go but I did laugh...it was only his kicking, marking and handball that let him down then?

[comrade]

Not having a go but I did laugh...it was only his kicking, marking and handball that let him down then?

Apart from that he was great :D

[Hotdog60]

I find Everitt a concern, to me he doesn't look a defender. OP say he did a reasonable job and that may be so, but he was just as guilty of letting the collingwood players be free in attack.

I think if we are going to play Dre, he would be far better being in the position to make space or lead up for the ball. I think the HF line would be better for him.

[boydogs]

mjp's comments about team balance and lack of runners were interesting. We may need a rethink, as we played a full strength side minus Morris and Gia.

Gia played - not sure it is a personnel issue as our forward line defensive pressure in the NAB cup final was fantastic


Welcome to WOOF Dogs101. :)

As soon as I heard that Morris was out of the side - I just had this awful feeling that things wouldn't go our way today. He is super important to our side and fingers crossed he is right for next week.

I wonder whether our guys thought the same thing - the defense seemed very lost and unsure of themselves without him


I know you can't tell much from 2 minutes of highlights, but Collingwood seemed to kick a number of 'soft' goals. I guess once I have seen the game I can look for the lead up work, but it seemd Didak and Davis were un-apposed on quite a few occassions.

Never good to lose the first one, but there is still plenty of time to re-find our mojo.

There were a lot of soft goals from a very disorganised defense


Who did Picken play on?

He only had 9 touches and as yet hasn't come under any scrutiny for his performance.


Played on Lockyer for most of the match and did a fair job of it. Certainly wasn't one of our worst performers. Also scored a handy goal.

Quelled Pendlebury early too - not the worst

[LostDoggy]

I was very disappointed with Higgins today. Most worringly, i saw him take too many easy options and short steps, when he needed to really attack the contest and assert himself. Really didnt like what i saw. Not sure if anyone else saw the same thing.

I was very critical of Everitt being played down back, but in fairness, i thought that he did relatively well. Would love to see him played forward of centre though. He looked very dangerous when he had the ball on the wing and running forward.

[soupman]

Not having a go but I did laugh...it was only his kicking, marking and handball that let him down then?

I know how bad it sounds, but really two of those are usually a lot better, and the signs were there. It wasn't the actual results that were encouraging, but his positioning, his ability and willingness to go for those marks, and whilst he didn't execute well I always felt like he was on the verge of making a good piece of play.

What I mean is that, unlike a lot of other players today, he looked like he was going to do something to our favour nearly everytime he was around the footy, unfortunately his disposal was lacking. I think if things had of gone his way a bit more today, just in terms of holding his marks (which he is usually good at) and disposal by foot (which he has been complimented on this very site about) he would have been classified as having a good game.

The signs are there.

[anfo27]

Not overly concerned even though that was a poor performane. We were down in a lot of areas and i was just waiting for us to go up a gear or two but it never happened. I can't understand how we can average 60+ tackles in the NAB cup but only muster up 46 tackles when the real stuff comes along.

Just didn't work hard enough defensively and we were just woeful in defense. Can't remember Harbrow playing as bad as that. Tommy Tommy Tommy that was awful mate. hell i don't think any of our defenders would have got a pass mark.

Murphy i thought was clearly our best, didn't waste a possie. Hudson was good value.

Everitt gets to many pats on the back on this forum. He wasn't crap but i wouldn't have him in our best and everytime he gets the ball i have my heart in my mouth. There is so much to like about him but he just does not do it for me. Nowhere near our best 22 at the minute.

Barry Hall had tunnel vision a couple of times in that 2nd half when he could have easily passed it off to a team mate in a better spot but chose to go himself and waste some oppourtunities. Because we won the NAB cup i think people are expecting too much. Its still going to take time for us to get used to Hall and vise versa.

As long as we get enough wins to get us a top 4 spot then thats all that matters and once there our team is good enough to take from there.

[SonofScray]

Everitt is taking some good steps forward. You can see a few areas that are being coached into him that he struggling with though. His decision making isn't very fluid, he almost comes to a complete stop before he decides what to do, particularly if the first option isn't there. Stuff like moving the ball on quickly or giving quick hands off at the stoppage he just hasn't got right yet.

The good sign is, that he is giving it a go whereas he could be hanging out and not getting involved.

[LostDoggy]

A bad day for the dogs, lack of intensity and a glove. Some of our weaker links were showed up today. Addison needed to make more of the opportunity and although I am a big fan, Minson should have a rest for Roughy against the tiges. We had a lot of momentum in the third and should have been ahead but we couldnt make it count on the scoreboard, then they kicked the last 3 which killed us going into the last change.

A reality check yes, Johno underdone yes, but I hear that Gia, Aker and Harbrow all were suffering symptoms of the Morris viral strain. They certainly looked like it on the day. Across the ground we were playing well under our best, except for Will who probably rated in the pies best players.

[LostDoggy]

With Johnson, Hahn, Akermanis, Murphy, Hill and Hall in the side we are lacking run - a third of the squad plays almost exclusively in the front half. Moles HAD to play. Bringing Addison in to replace Morris is fine...but the balance just looks wrong. Looking that the stats, all the heavy lifting is being left to Cross and Boyd - with no Ward, we had to play Moles.
.

I was sitting there watching and thinking the same thing. Everytime we needed to win the ball we put Huddo, Boydy, Coons and Crossy in the middle. Then I'm looking at our bench, and looking around the ground, and realising that we had no other midfield ball winners! A measure of how far Wardy has come to be so sorely missed, and Moles was a weird omission with the balance out of whack -- too many 'mercurial' types, not enough grunt, and that's the way it certainly looked all over the ground, just couldn't get clean use of the ball anywhere (everytime we did we pretty much scored, so one or two more ball-winners would have probably tipped the match in our favour).

You know, with that line-up, it was clear we were missing the run of Eagleton too, strange as that statement sounds to my ears. He is more important to our 'balance' than most of us give him credit for.

[LostDoggy]

Actually 6 goals flattered us. They missed a lot of sitters.

We missed a fair few as well, to be fair.

[Rance Fan]

I thought Everitt was one of the few who at least showed some run and dash from the back half.
Usually Harbrow, Hargrave or Lake would, but they seemed limited compared to usual

[LostDoggy]

I thought Murphy was our best. I was really disappointed that we played so poorly for Johnno's 350th game. I know we can't change things now, but I wish he was playing it this week. :(

[Rance Fan]

Oh also thought Hahn was reasonable, particularly coming back from his injury so soon. Good effort.
Aker and Johnno seemed a touch slow, hope they step up!
Cross also looks slow and not real effective. Never hurts opposition, (griffen also)
Few seasons ago i had Cross above Boyd, but seems as though Boyd as improved and Cross is in decline.
Cross to his credit still works hard and continues to throw his body at the ball on the bottom of the packs.
Id like to see Moles and Ward back in to help out and to give some added toughness and drive.

[LostDoggy]

Who did Picken play on?

He only had 9 touches and as yet hasn't come under any scrutiny for his performance.

Picken did good I thought, always tried hard, stayed on his feet, made his opponent earn every touch.

Lots of doom and gloom and some accusations of complacency around the traps, but I really didn't think we weren't trying -- the flu affected a third of the team and that's a pretty tough thing to overcome: we were competitive (and even be winning) most quarters except the first and then would concede a couple at the end of every quarter as our energy levels dropped off, which is symptomatic of a flu-affected team.

And I think the game reinforced how important Morris is to our team -- no team can lose its best defender and not think that it wouldn't affect it. Medhurst was a huge influence yesterday. Morris plays on him, no influence.

We have to rebound, and rebound strongly in the next few weeks, but Geelong also lost its first game in its 2007 premiership year (to us!) and turned it around. We have won plenty of Round 1 games over the years and done nothing, so it really is the least meaningful round (if there is such a thing) of the home-and-away season.

[Mofra]

At one stage they had 15 goals and 12 were as a result of our turnovers.
That isn't surprising at all. Our disposal was terrible, especially compared to our normal standards.
Gilbee used to be an elite kick :(

[Mantis]

Gilbee used to be an elite kick :(

Who did Gilbee play on?

[G-Mo77]

Who did Gilbee play on?

Can't remember. I hardly noticed him all day. The only time he stood out was when he missed THAT goal.

[Sedat]

And I think the game reinforced how important Morris is to our team -- no team can lose its best defender and not think that it wouldn't affect it. Medhurst was a huge influence yesterday. Morris plays on him, no influence.
Don't disagree that Morris is extremely important to our defensive structure, by Shaggy has torched Medhurst for fun in the last few encounters so there can't be any complaints about that match-up on the day. Must have been close to Shaggy's worst game in a Bulldogs jumper under Rocket?

Anyway Morris' loss was a good chance to test our vaunted depth in match conditions and by the sounds of it, Addison didn't pass the test with flying colours. Maybe there's a reason that the likes of Addison, Stack and Callan are perenially on the fringes because they simply aren't quite good enough to step up on a consistent basis at AFL level?

[LostDoggy]

Anyway Morris' loss was a good chance to test our vaunted depth in match conditions and by the sounds of it, Addison didn't pass the test with flying colours. Maybe there's a reason that the likes of Addison, Stack and Callan are perenially on the fringes because they simply aren't quite good enough to step up on a consistent basis at AFL level?

Completely agree about everything you said. Morris is a great flexible option that CAN go to a player if he's breaking out, no one else really has that capacity, so Medhurst had a field day.

Re: our depth, another way to look at it would be that we were playing a top 4 (some say top 2) side, so any 'depth' players would be exposed to a certain extent against that level of quality. Depth only goes so far, and I think if they are serviceable against 90% of teams in the comp they would be doing their job. I think it would be reasonable to assume that the three players you've named would do okay against most teams in the comp from Brisbane/Adelaide down, but shouldn't be expected to do much more than fill a strictly defined role in, say, a big final.

[Dry Rot]

the flu affected a third of the team

Source? The number of players claimed to have had the flu seems to be going up hourly.

[stefoid]

Oh also thought Hahn was reasonable, particularly coming back from his injury so soon. Good effort.
Aker and Johnno seemed a touch slow, hope they step up!
Cross also looks slow and not real effective. Never hurts opposition, (griffen also)
Few seasons ago i had Cross above Boyd, but seems as though Boyd as improved and Cross is in decline.
Cross to his credit still works hard and continues to throw his body at the ball on the bottom of the packs.
Id like to see Moles and Ward back in to help out and to give some added toughness and drive.

You are so, so wrong about cross. His gut running, defensive efforts, and link play make him one of our most effective onballers, especially in close under defensive pressure of the opposition.

Would it surprise you to know that cross had 5 assists to his name yesterday (most of our side) AND 5 tackles (most of our side)? Or that he was our 2nd best possession winner and contest possession winner behind Boyd?

There is couple of nice stats from pro-stats that I like to look at which tell you how often a player is involved in a piece of play that results in a shot on goal, and how many times a player does something that initiates a chain of possessions that results in a shot on goal, and last year cross was right up there in our top 3 or 4 players for that stat, whilst at the same time being top 3 or 4 in most of the defensive indicators such as tackles and 1%ers.

unfortunately the links contained in the following thead are now stale:

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=662615&highlight=moneyball

[Go_Dogs]

Source? The number of players claimed to have had the flu seems to be going up hourly.

Not what I like to read to be honest. If they were sick, so be it, but keep it quiet - it looks weak imo with these sort of "excuses" being ran so heavily in the media.

[LostDoggy]

Source? The number of players claimed to have had the flu seems to be going up hourly.

Haha.. just like flu!

[chef]

Not what I like to read to be honest. If they were sick, so be it, but keep it quiet - it looks weak imo with these sort of "excuses" being ran so heavily in the media.

If they were sick, why play them. I thought we had a deep squad and Moles should have played.

[stefoid]

Morris usually gives Didak a dirty day. Shaggy was just hands down beaten by his usual opponent - out bodied, out marked, and starved of possession himself. Shocker.

[DOG GOD]

Even though we played poorly i thought the Pies totally outplayed us for most of the game. The amount of space given to Shaw, Maxwell and Obrien was terrible. How could we let that happen. We failed to tag Shaw in rd 22 last year and we didnt again this time round. Doesnt make sense to me.

Hall, Johnno, Gia, Aker, Hahn and Hill would have to be the slowest fwd line in the AFL. We need some spark in there from somewhere.

I rate Cwood as a team. Picked them to finish 3rd and us 4th after the home and away season. Afetr they kicked 27 goals against Port in the last practice game i new they had it in them to kick a decent score, and when the likes of Didak, Medhurst, Thomas, Lockyer and Davis get plenty of opportunities, then the scoreboard is guarranteed to tick over.

Having said that we need to come out firing against Richmond. Nothing more that a 50 pt win will satisfy me.

[Ozza]

Who did Picken play on?

He only had 9 touches and as yet hasn't come under any scrutiny for his performance.

You mentioned earlier that it looked like Collingwood got a lot of 'soft goals' - these were goals from our mistakes where they absolutely burnt us on the turnover/fast break. Picken was one of very few who dashed back very hard to try and stop these - so he was involved in a lot of chases, spoils and attempted spoils. He didn't have a very good game, but was far from our worst 6 or 7 and the stats probably don't reflect his efforts at times.

[Sedat]

With Johnson, Hahn, Akermanis, Murphy, Hill and Hall in the side we are lacking run - a third of the squad plays almost exclusively in the front half. Moles HAD to play. Bringing Addison in to replace Morris is fine...but the balance just looks wrong. Looking that the stats, all the heavy lifting is being left to Cross and Boyd - with no Ward, we had to play Moles.
You've raised some good points re: the balance of the team being out of kilter yesterday. Moles was in our best half-dozen performers during the pre-season, so he can consider himself awfully unlucky to have been edged out of the team in Round 1 - I hope his excellent form is rewarded sooner rather than later, and judging by the detailed reports, Josh Hill didnt exactly grasp his reward of senior selection with both hands.

[Mantis]

You mentioned earlier that it looked like Collingwood got a lot of 'soft goals' - these were goals from our mistakes where they absolutely burnt us on the turnover/fast break. Picken was one of very few who dashed back very hard to try and stop these - so he was involved in a lot of chases, spoils and attempted spoils. He didn't have a very good game, but was far from our worst 6 or 7 and the stats probably don't reflect his efforts at times.

Who wasn't chasing back?

[chef]

Who wasn't chasing back?

Cooney, Griffen and Higgins are three that should out to me yesterday.

[Mantis]

You've raised some good points re: the balance of the team being out of kilter yesterday. Moles was in our best half-dozen performers during the pre-season, so he can consider himself awfully unlucky to have been edged out of the team in Round 1 - I hope his excellent form is rewarded sooner rather than later, and judging by the detailed reports, Josh Hill didnt exactly grasp his reward of senior selection with both hands.

Yet 5 out of the first 20 voters in the Marmo gave Hill votes... Who do we believe?

Might have to download the game and make up my mind. I hate watching games we lose too.

[Ozza]

Who wasn't chasing back?

Primarily it was the opponents of Harbrow, Hargrave, Gilbee at times, and Addison who were able to slip away and kick goals. But there wasn't a huge effort from the onballers to dash back and support. Crossy tried, but there wasn't a lot of defensive running from Higgins, Griff and Gia for mine.

I'm a big Gia fan - but he was disappointing. And I've posted on another thread what I think of Higgins defensive work at times.

Of course these things don't get exposed as much when we don't make mistakes - but geez we looked bad when we turned it over yesterday - Collingwood moved teh ball so quickly to get all of those easy goals.

My first bit of advice would be - don't kick or handball to Tommy Williams to set up the play!! Immediate goals leaked!

[aker39]

Yet 5 out of the first 20 voters in the Marmo gave Hill votes... Who do we believe?

Might have to download the game and make up my mind. I hate watching games we lose too.

I'll be interested to hear your opinion, because I thought he was very ordinary. He just seemed to be a bystander on too many occassions.

[Ozza]

Yet 5 out of the first 20 voters in the Marmo gave Hill votes... Who do we believe?

Might have to download the game and make up my mind. I hate watching games we lose too.

Not the 5 people that gave him votes.
The only players you could POSSIBLY vote for would be:

Hudson - huge efforts all day, won the ruck and scraped and scrapped and tackled.
Boyd - heaps of the ball, plenty of genuinely tough efforts. Got us going in the second quarter
Bob Murphy - terriffic presenting, great hands, used it alot better than recent times.
Crossy - typically Cross, hard working all day, brave.
Coons - was reasonable, had clean hands which many others didn't, Got some good clearances albeit lacking some finishing.
Thats probably it - Hahn was reasonable also.

[G-Mo77]

Yet 5 out of the first 20 voters in the Marmo gave Hill votes... Who do we believe?

Might have to download the game and make up my mind. I hate watching games we lose too.

I just want to start off that Hill is not my scape goat.

I got a pretty clear view of Hill for most of the game and thought he was pretty poor. Maybe it's because he was in my focus for so long that his mistakes or lack of effort stood out more than others. Either way his opponents continued to hurt us at the other end and this has been a clear weakness in Hill's game that and other concerns has not improved. I'd rather see him as an extra forward option which I think is more suited to him than up on a wing.

I'm really surprised to see him in the best players in some peoples eyes although that being said we didn't have to many stand outs.

[Rance Fan]

Hill seemed to be in back half from time to time, which is a real worry to me. You gotta ask were we out coached?
Id assume Malthouse planned for Hills man to run forward. Not sure Eade or Hill himself did much to counter act that!

[G-Mo77]

Hill seemed to be in back half from time to time, which is a real worry to me. You gotta ask were we out coached?
Id assume Malthouse planned for Hills man to run forward. Not sure Eade or Hill himself did much to counter act that!

I think he actually played back in the final quarter.

[Rance Fan]

I think he actually played back in the final quarter.

Either way i dont think he's up to it.
Id much prefer the tenacity and hardness of a Ward or Moles, even Tim Callan, Wood, Reid etc
An odd flashy touch or mark isnt enough for me

[LostDoggy]

-Will Minson. Surely that would have to be one of the worst games he's ever played. It's hard to continue calling Leigh Brown a spud when Will plays like a potato. Usually his disposal by foot is good and his ruckwork is pretty good also. Today he looks slow and cumbersome, couldn't mark a thing and his diposal was woeful. I was very dissapointed with his performance and felt he was a leading candidate for worst on ground.

Looks like Minson might go back-to-back for the most clangers in the season. As Rocket has said "For such an intelligent man, he does some stupid things." :rolleyes:

[AndrewP6]

Nothing more that a 50 pt win will satisfy me.

Nothing less?

[Hotdog60]

Crossy tried, but there wasn't a lot of defensive running from Higgins, Griff and Gia for mine.

I'm a big Gia fan - but he was disappointing. And I've posted on another thread what I think of Higgins defensive work at times.

In fairness to Higgins, Brown stitched him up twice during the game so I'd say the wind was knock out of sails a bit. I wonder if he had been placed on the hit list.

[LostDoggy]

Cooney, Griffen and Higgins are three that should out to me yesterday.

I have had this thought for a while with him, not just from yesterdays game. Just seems to me as though he doesn't work hard enough defensively, happy to look good when he has the ball, but won't work hard enough to shut down his opponent or the opposition.

[Sedat]

I have had this thought for a while with him, not just from yesterdays game. Just seems to me as though he doesn't work hard enough defensively, happy to look good when he has the ball, but won't work hard enough to shut down his opponent or the opposition.
I mentioned this after our West Coast loss last season (prior to Hall coming to the club of course) - 6 of our rotating forwards are very much attack-minded playmakers, and the defensive pursuits don't come naturally to them. I'm talking Johnson, Gia, Aker, Murphy, Higgins and Hill, with Hahn being the only exception. Hall has clearly redressed this imbalance but our forward 50, especially if the ball is not delivered in there with precision, still has the occasional tendency to trampoline straight out of there with minimal pressure. Our team currently doesn't have that psycho defensive half-forward who tackles with intent to hurt (ie: Rooke or McQualter), nor do we have the quick small forward pocket to pressure the opposition ball carrier from behind. Unfortunately we don't seem to have either type in our squad either.

Having said all that, it isn't as though these 6 players cannot perform defensive roles for us when needed - it's just that this isn't their first thought when the ball comes into their area. And when our all-over pressure is slightly down around the ground, we get trapped into having shootouts (which we rarely come out on top of). Our defensive pressure was well down in the first 6 rounds last season (we were 3-3 at the time) and then in the next couple of months we put the squeeze on the opposition and conceded only around 70 points a game (ironically this stretch ended against the Pies last season). If someone like Tiprat Milne can chase and harrass every week (even though bit clearly doesn't come naturally to him), I reckon our talented forward group can also bring this mindset to the table every week.

[Stefcep]

Either way i dont think he's up to it.
Id much prefer the tenacity and hardness of a Ward or Moles, even Tim Callan, Wood, Reid etc
An odd flashy touch or mark isnt enough for me

This.

I'd go as far as to say this year ought to be a make it or move on year for Hill.

Really no excuses anymore.

[Stefcep]

Those criticising Higgins. IMO he's the best finisher at the club, and as a half forward in the top 4-5 in the league.

[Before I Die]

This.

I'd go as far as to say this year ought to be a make it or move on year for Hill.

Really no excuses anymore.

I really don't think he needs any excuses. He played 24 out of 25 last year and kicked 33 goals, ranked 4th in the club. He has played a total of 43 games, has all the tools and will most likely be a 200 game player. Quite possibly an absolute champion. Consistency and hardness will come with maturity.

Born on 19/1/89, he is slightly younger than Everitt (13/3/89, 25 games) and more than a year younger Harbrow (18/2/88, 49 games) and Stack (26/5/88, 3 games) who were all recruited the same year as him.

We are also likely to lose Akermanis, Eagleton and Johnson next year and Hahn will be turning 30.

Yes, he didn't have a great game on Sunday and yes, he can look a little soft at times. But it is not a make or break year for him. He has made it already and he will be very important to our team in the very near future if not already now.

[chef]

This.

I'd go as far as to say this year ought to be a make it or move on year for Hill.
Really no excuses anymore.

Can't see that happening. We will have 3 retirements at the end of this year as well as probably losing a best 22 player to the GC.

[Go_Dogs]

Those criticising Higgins. IMO he's the best finisher at the club, and as a half forward in the top 4-5 in the league.

So, you're happy for laud one player who has a distinct lack of defensive pressure, but not another who you perceive as soft?

Yes, Higgins is a terrific finisher and should become a top line player. He still has a lot of work to do to ensure his game becomes more well rounded, otherwise he'll be another flashy player who can't do much else. His skills and game sense are terrific, but his speed, contested skills and especially his defensive efforts which often leave a lot to be desired (and have for his entire time at the club).

Hill, for all the talk of him being "soft" is one of our hardest working defensive players. He lacks the physical side to his game, but that is fine. I'd like to see him put his body on the line more often, but some players just aren't going to win contested ball time and time again, and he is one of them. We know he contests very hard aerially, that takes courage. He also chases harder than just about any other forward we have.

If we are expecting him to play the role of an inside mid, sure, punish him for not winning contested ball. The fact is we aren't. He has a defined role in the side, and I think he plays it pretty well.

Without Hill, our F50 pressure would be absolutely stuffed!

[Mantis]

Yes, Higgins is a terrific finisher and should become a top line player. He still has a lot of work to do to ensure his game becomes more well rounded, otherwise he'll be another flashy player who can't do much else. His skills and game sense are terrific, but his speed, contested skills and his defensive efforts often leave a lot to be desired (and have for his entire time at the club).



They are as a whole pretty piss poor.

Having watched parts of the game this morning (and from the past) he just doesn't push himself hard enough defensively. On a couple of occasions he was happy to give his opponent 10m of space and then after 2 or 3 possesions his opponent still had the same gap and received the ball. If he had closed the gap initially his opponent wouldn't have been an option and we would have had more chance of creating a turnover.

Higgins is no doubt an extremely talented player, but is falling into some bad habits, which as a leader he shouldn't have.

[chef]

So, you're happy for laud one player who has a distinct lack of defensive pressure, but not another who you perceive as soft?

Yes, Higgins is a terrific finisher and should become a top line player. He still has a lot of work to do to ensure his game becomes more well rounded, otherwise he'll be another flashy player who can't do much else. His skills and game sense are terrific, but his speed, contested skills and especially his defensive efforts which often leave a lot to be desired (and have for his entire time at the club).

Hill, for all the talk of him being "soft" is one of our hardest working defensive players. He lacks the physical side to his game, but that is fine. I'd like to see him put his body on the line more often, but some players just aren't going to win contested ball time and time again, and he is one of them. We know he contests very hard aerially, that takes courage. He also chases harder than just about any other forward we have.

If we are expecting him to play the role of an inside mid, sure, punish him for not winning contested ball. The fact is we aren't. He has a defined role in the side, and I think he plays it pretty well.

Without Hill, our F50 pressure would be absolutely stuffed!

Excellent post Griffen#16, sums up my thoughts too.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I really don't think he needs any excuses. He played 24 out of 25 last year and kicked 33 goals, ranked 4th in the club. He has played a total of 43 games, has all the tools and will most likely be a 200 game player. Quite possibly an absolute champion. Consistency and hardness will come with maturity.

Born on 19/1/89, he is slightly younger than Everitt (13/3/89, 25 games) and more than a year younger Harbrow (18/2/88, 49 games) and Stack (26/5/88, 3 games) who were all recruited the same year as him.

We are also likely to lose Akermanis, Eagleton and Johnson next year and Hahn will be turning 30.

Yes, he didn't have a great game on Sunday and yes, he can look a little soft at times. But it is not a make or break year for him. He has made it already and he will be very important to our team in the very near future if not already now.

Johnson is on the vets list so he doesn't count.

Moles will be elevated, taking up a spot.

Liberatore and Wallis will take up 2 more spots.

Another couple will have to go, and Hill would be one under consideration (obviously trade rather than delisting).

[Go_Dogs]

Another couple will have to go, and Hill would be one under consideration (obviously trade rather than delisting).

There will be a few in front of him though, imo.

[LostDoggy]

On another note I think Eade shoul give Harbrow a run in the forward pocket this week. As we need a small fast forward to pick up the
crumbs in the games we are lacking hitting targets or just being dominated.

[LostDoggy]

On another note I think Eade shoul give Harbrow a run in the forward pocket this week. As we need a small fast forward to pick up the
crumbs in the games we are lacking hitting targets or just being dominated.

Back to the future?

[Before I Die]

Johnson is on the vets list so he doesn't count.

Moles will be elevated, taking up a spot.

Liberatore and Wallis will take up 2 more spots.

Another couple will have to go, and Hill would be one under consideration (obviously trade rather than delisting).

Everybody is tradeable, however, I think we will have to agree to disagree regarding Hill's worth.

It appears that having an average game in the seniors is a much worse crime than having an average game in the seconds or a fair game in the NAB cup. Perhaps if Hill was not playing due to injury he would get more cred. Then the calls would be "bring in Hill as soon as he is fit".

I believe Hill will be a very, very good AFL player, I hope it is with us.

[LostDoggy]

So, you're happy for laud one player who has a distinct lack of defensive pressure, but not another who you perceive as soft?

Yes, Higgins is a terrific finisher and should become a top line player. He still has a lot of work to do to ensure his game becomes more well rounded, otherwise he'll be another flashy player who can't do much else. His skills and game sense are terrific, but his speed, contested skills and especially his defensive efforts which often leave a lot to be desired (and have for his entire time at the club).

Hill, for all the talk of him being "soft" is one of our hardest working defensive players. He lacks the physical side to his game, but that is fine. I'd like to see him put his body on the line more often, but some players just aren't going to win contested ball time and time again, and he is one of them. We know he contests very hard aerially, that takes courage. He also chases harder than just about any other forward we have.

If we are expecting him to play the role of an inside mid, sure, punish him for not winning contested ball. The fact is we aren't. He has a defined role in the side, and I think he plays it pretty well.

Without Hill, our F50 pressure would be absolutely stuffed!

I cant agree, I think there would be very few games where Hills contribution matched or exceeded Higgins. I think Shaun is miles ahead of Josh, who would you pick first? Pretty easy answer IMO. Hill just doesnt seem that keen to me. GC17 bait.

[soupman]

Those criticising Higgins. IMO he's the best finisher at the club, and as a half forward in the top 4-5 in the league.


Thats all well and good, however he still has to work the other way.


This.

I'd go as far as to say this year ought to be a make it or move on year for Hill.

Really no excuses anymore.

I think this comment is unfair. Josh Hill has come a lot further than many other players from his draft. As a 21 year old he has shown he has the ability to be a dangerous forward in our forwardline, kicking 33 goals last season.

But I can't see him being moved on at all. As mentioned by others we lose Akermanis, Hall, Johnson and probably Hahn in the next couple of years. Thats 4 out of 6 forwards. Who replaces them?

Hill has shown he can play that Johnson like mid sized marking forward role. He's shown he can kick goals on the run, from crumbing or from marks, both contested and on the lead. He's shown an ability to find space, push up the ground to a wing, and has attributes such as endurance, leap, agility and sticky hands that make him a difficult match up.

Yes he could work harder, yes he isn't physical (I don't expect him to be), and yes he does go missing in matches. But why would you trade a 21 year old, athletic freak who has already shown he can perform in a role that we will soon have to find more players to fill due to retirements?

[stefoid]

ah, its just good to have a guy in the side who can take a big hanger, its good stuff. If he put on too much more weight, which I dont think his body is suited to anyway, he wouldnt have that ridiculous spring off two steps that catches his opponents out.

I wonder that rocket doesnt play him as a purely defensive forward to tag the opposition rebounder. Halve Heath Shaws possession count and kick one goal himself and thats a job well done I reckon.

[LostDoggy]

Wasn't the issue with Hill the fact that he failed to be effective in stopping / wrapping up defenders, ie a contested situation becomes a win for the opposition when the ball hits the ground?

It sometimes looks like defenders can get away from him too easily when he doesn't mark the ball.

Having said that, I think Hill is unfairly maligned as he is a tall who can mark and has improved a number of his defensive efforts.

[AndrewP6]

Wasn't the issue with Hill the fact that he failed to be effective in stopping / wrapping up defenders, ie a contested situation becomes a win for the opposition when the ball hits the ground?

It sometimes looks like defenders can get away from him too easily when he doesn't mark the ball.

Having said that, I think Hill is unfairly maligned as he is a tall who can mark and has improved a number of his defensive efforts.

He's listed as 186cm, not sure this makes him a tall...

[Rance Fan]

With Hills size, could he lay an effective tackle against a burly backmen?
I just think his intensity or more so tenacity isnt there. Hes not ferocious enough.
Needs some angry pills and needs to run thru some walls before the game. Hehehe

[The Bulldogs Bite]

With Hills size, could he lay an effective tackle against a burly backmen?
I just think his intensity or more so tenacity isnt there. Hes not ferocious enough.
Needs some angry pills and needs to run thru some walls before the game. Hehehe

Hill gets a lot of stick for what is a very laconic playing style.

He's only young and his defensive efforts are improving. Currently he offers more in this department than Johnson, Akermanis, Murphy, Higgins and Giansiracusa.

[Mantis]

Having finally watched the game here are my thoughts:

* We were better than I expected us to be. Going on some of the comments around the traps I thought we stunk it up big time. We actually showed some good signs for large parts of the game.

* We have to be able to stop run-ons. The 5 goals conceeded at the end of the 1st qtr & another 3 before 3/4 time killed us. We are getting in a habit of busting a nut to get back into the contest only to see it washed away with 5 minutes of sloppy footy. We did the same in the QF against Geelong last year.

* Our conversion rate was poor and it cost us dearly. On the Gilbee miss I thought it was poor play by Higgins in the lead up. He either had to pass the ball straight away or kick the goal himself. By the time he passed it off to Gilbs the clear area around had been closed forcing Gilbs to kick under pressure.

* Our defenders were off their game. They must have been crook because to a man they are better than that.

* Cross has to tag. He is courageous as they come and works as hard as anyone else, but in these 'offensive roles' he just doesn't hurt the opposition with the ball. He needs to become our Cameron Ling.

* Our mid-sized forwards (bar Murf) were poor to very poor. Aker, Gia, Hahn, Johnson, Higgins & Hill didn't do enough and need to extract the digit.

-----

It's always a shit feeling to lose a 'big' game, but there was enough in that game to suggest we are in for another good year. We battled hard for large parts of the game, but let ourseleves down with some poor finishing and silly errors which we normally don't make.

We can't let ourselves fall into the trap of playing catch-up footy. We are able to pile on the pressure when we are behind and can run down any team, but you waste alot of energy doing so and are then liable to a lapse in concentration in which a good team can pile on quick goals. (which has happened on more than one occassion)

The Richmond game shapes up as a walk in the park (hope the players don't treat it that way), but we are than faced with 4 games in a row against other potential finalists which we need to be 'up' for. In these games we need to show the defensive pressure we are becoming renowned for, for extended periods rather than just in spurts.

[Go_Dogs]

I cant agree, I think there would be very few games where Hills contribution matched or exceeded Higgins. I think Shaun is miles ahead of Josh, who would you pick first? Pretty easy answer IMO. Hill just doesnt seem that keen to me. GC17 bait.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to say Hill is superior to Higgins, because based on output that is obviously not the case. I was merely trying to emphasise that some players get a pass for non-effort defensively, whilst others don't - based on perception.


I just don't understand why would we trade a 21 year old, potential match winner because he isn't a super star at winning the contested ball? That is not his role, nor should it be. Yes, it would be better if he went more often when it was his time to, but I just don't believe the soft tag that he gets labelled with. Having re-watched our first final from 2009 a few times, Hill had a few poor efforts, but also did some very good things with repeat efforts in contested situations - yet because of a couple of memorable, "didn't go" efforts his game was widely perceived as poo and soft.

He's not the most physical player - but that is not what I am saying. I'm saying his efforts are underrated, and the perception of him being soft is making a lot of people have negative conceptions about him and his efforts without really taking in what I perceive to be the reality of the situation - that he does work hard defensively, that he adds a lot offensively, and he's doing his role.

Obviously, we all have different opinions and that is fine. I just think Hill cops the wrath a bit more than is warranted.

[EasternWest]

Hill gets a lot of stick for what is a very laconic playing style.

He's only young and his defensive efforts are improving. Currently he offers more in this department than Johnson, Akermanis, Murphy, Higgins and Giansiracusa.

I'd agree with you that Hill's loping style makes him look lazier than he is, but I think you're being a bit unfair to Aker and Murphy (last weekend anyway) in regards to defensive pressure.

FWIW it's worth I think Hill does need to improve in some areas, but I don't think he's as far off the pace as some others think he is.

[mjp]

Having finally watched the game here are my thoughts:

* We were better than I expected us to be. Going on some of the comments around the traps I thought we stunk it up big time. We actually showed some good signs for large parts of the game.


Agree. 2nd and (most of) 3rd q were excellent.

Inability to convert chances in 3rd q cost us dearly. Forward line crowded though, O'Brien and Maxwell superb at playing help defense....Collingwood are a very good side. They actually might just be better than us.

My concern was/remains the forward line. Bombing away to Hall is just as ineffective as bombing away to Minson when he is outnumbered 3 to 1. More movement and more f+c efforts are required.

Defenders? I know what you are saying, but getting beat one-on-one by Medhurst will happen, and the way the ball came down in the last quarter, well, what chance did they have?

[stefoid]

Akers defensive pressure is always first rate/

[LostDoggy]

- yet because of a couple of memorable, "didn't go" efforts his game was widely perceived as poo and soft.



That is the whole issue

"Not going" when it is your turn is undefendable and many clubs would dispense with a player who dared to do it on two occasions.

[Go_Dogs]

That is the whole issue

"Not going" when it is your turn is undefendable and many clubs would dispense with a player who dared to do it on two occasions.

A lot of guys who have/are playing a lot of AFL have a habit of doing this though, and it's certainly an aspect of Hill's game that will improve with more strength and confidence in his bodies ability to withstand the hard hitting contests.



I do agree with your sentiments, although not entirely.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Having finally watched the game here are my thoughts:

* We were better than I expected us to be. Going on some of the comments around the traps I thought we stunk it up big time. We actually showed some good signs for large parts of the game.

* We have to be able to stop run-ons. The 5 goals conceeded at the end of the 1st qtr & another 3 before 3/4 time killed us. We are getting in a habit of busting a nut to get back into the contest only to see it washed away with 5 minutes of sloppy footy. We did the same in the QF against Geelong last year.

* Our conversion rate was poor and it cost us dearly. On the Gilbee miss I thought it was poor play by Higgins in the lead up. He either had to pass the ball straight away or kick the goal himself. By the time he passed it off to Gilbs the clear area around had been closed forcing Gilbs to kick under pressure.

* Our defenders were off their game. They must have been crook because to a man they are better than that.

* Cross has to tag. He is courageous as they come and works as hard as anyone else, but in these 'offensive roles' he just doesn't hurt the opposition with the ball. He needs to become our Cameron Ling.

* Our mid-sized forwards (bar Murf) were poor to very poor. Aker, Gia, Hahn, Johnson, Higgins & Hill didn't do enough and need to extract the digit.

-----

It's always a shit feeling to lose a 'big' game, but there was enough in that game to suggest we are in for another good year. We battled hard for large parts of the game, but let ourseleves down with some poor finishing and silly errors which we normally don't make.

We can't let ourselves fall into the trap of playing catch-up footy. We are able to pile on the pressure when we are behind and can run down any team, but you waste alot of energy doing so and are then liable to a lapse in concentration in which a good team can pile on quick goals. (which has happened on more than one occassion)

The Richmond game shapes up as a walk in the park (hope the players don't treat it that way), but we are than faced with 4 games in a row against other potential finalists which we need to be 'up' for. In these games we need to show the defensive pressure we are becoming renowned for, for extended periods rather than just in spurts.

I agree with most of these comments in particular your reference to both the back and forward lines. As most good sides do it might be time to inject some new blood into the side. Players like Roughead, Moles and perhaps Wood need to be seriously looked at otherwise some of our regulars get into a comfort zone knowing their positions are not in danger. The loss of hard bodied players like Morris and Ward left us vulnerable with a lack of determination and endeavour by some of our highly skilled players. Playing Collingwood first up was not a bad thing as it showed if we are 15-20% off the boil then good sides will crunch us every time.

[G-Mo77]

Looks like Moles will be playing his first game along with the return of Morris.

Eagleton is right but will go through the VFL first.

I think Addison and Everitt will receive the chop.

[EasternWest]

Looks like Moles will be playing his first game along with the return of Morris.

Eagleton is right but will go through the VFL first.

I think Addison and Everitt will receive the chop.

It could pan out like that. Bit rough on Everitt, but that's the way it goes.

[Mantis]

It could pan out like that. Bit rough on Everitt, but that's the way it goes.

Does it?

Everitt works his butt off all pre-season to ensure he plays in rd 1 and then on the back of a pretty solid game he gets dropped. I reckon he would be a little peeved.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Hill gets a lot of stick for what is a very laconic playing style.

He's only young and his defensive efforts are improving. Currently he offers more in this department than Johnson, Akermanis, Murphy, Higgins and Giansiracusa.

Sockeye's 20 game rule.

[LostDoggy]

He's listed as 186cm, not sure this makes him a tall...

Tall in the sense that he can reach tall for a mark and his body seems to react like a tall thin in that he sometimes seems to struggle at ground level and doesn't always make physical contact a priority. I don't think he plays like a small or mid. The best ones are well balanced and very good below the knees. He loses contact and doesn't always neutralise a situation with physical presence. Yet we know he can be an excellent touch player. To me, it's a bit hit and miss with him...get the ball and we look good; don't get the ball and the opposition can set up. The missing element is what position is he putting himself in when he doesn't get the ball. Can he recover quickly enough and is he in a position to effect a neutral situation? I actually think some of his defensive efforts have been better this year. I'm sure he would be coached in these areas.

[EasternWest]

Does it?

Everitt works his butt off all pre-season to ensure he plays in rd 1 and then on the back of a pretty solid game he gets dropped. I reckon he would be a little peeved.

Well, yeah, sometimes that is the way it goes. But I agree with you, it is rough on Everitt if that happens. I too thought (and have mentioned elsewhere, including my preview) that he did alright . I do think they'll put Moles in (and Morris for DFA is a lock), so somebody's gotta make way.

Who do you think Mantis? I must admit I forgot about Hill when I responded to that first email. Other than him and Andrejs, I don't know who else it could be.

[Before I Die]

Does it?

Everitt works his butt off all pre-season to ensure he plays in rd 1 and then on the back of a pretty solid game he gets dropped. I reckon he would be a little peeved.

In which case he would need to harden up. But he hasn't yet been dropped and this is your take on his response if he was, which may be very different to his actual response if the axe falls.

Rocket hinted at the need to bring in more mid-field run, the question for the match committee is what can we afford to have less of in exchange. Whether it is Everitt, Hill or Hahn or whoever, if a player gets dropped they need to go back to the twos and and earn their spot again or be next in line if injuries occur. If the match committee starts taking into account possible feelings of hurt or disappointment then I think we would be in trouble.