Round 3 - Who makes way for Johnno, Ward and Eagleton?

[becmatty]

Round 3 Vs Hawthorn poses a few headaches at the selection table.

With skipper Brad Johnson set to return and the liklihood of both Ward and Eagleton being available, means that there will be some unlucky players this week.

Of the current 22, the following players will come under the closest scrutiny: Hill, Moles, Picken, Everitt and Minson.

Thoughts?...

[LostDoggy]

IMO the only possible one may be Minson, Moles i thought was very good and although ive been on Hill's back i think he did enough.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Round 3 Vs Hawthorn poses a few headaches at the selection table.

With skipper Brad Johnson set to return and the liklihood of both Ward and Eagleton being available, means that there will be some unlucky players this week.

Of the current 22, the following players will come under the closest scrutiny: Hill, Moles, Picken, Everitt and Minson.

Thoughts?...

I don't believe Everitt is under any scrutiny after his very good performance today. And Josh Hill may have made the most of his lucky inclusion today with his showing.

It's going to be a dilemma for the coaching staff for sure, although I'm not sure if either Ward or Eagleton are necessarily automatic inclusions for next weeks game.

Picken hasn't been great in the opening two rounds, and whilst Moles played well today, he may be the unfortunate one to make way for Johnno.
I'm not convinced Minson will make way for Roughy this week either. Apart from a couple of free kicks against, I think his ruckwork was good enough to see him hold off young Roughead for the near future.

[Go_Dogs]

At a guess, if all three are to come back in, Hill for Johnson, Moles for Eagleton and Ward for Picken leaving Cross and Boyd to perhaps devote more time to direct negating roles.

I think perhaps only 2 will come back in, and we'll see Eagleton after the Brisbane game, in which case Hill for Johnson and Moles for Ward would be my picks. Not easy decisions to make though, as all players have their merits to being selected.

[comrade]

We saw last week the danger of going too top heavy in the forward line. If Johnson comes back in, another forward HAS to go out. Hill seems the most likely.

[Dazza]

Hard to guage after tonights game. I was ready to call for Minsons omission after he gave away so many free kicks in the first quarter.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

We saw last week the danger of going too top heavy in the forward line. If Johnson comes back in, another forward HAS to go out. Hill seems the most likely.
On consideration, your probably spot on there comrade. Whilst I thought Hill was good today, it really does make the most sense team balance wise. We were a genuine midfielder short last week agains the Pies, and Johnno really is more suited to the forward half of the ground these days.

[Dry Rot]

Hard to guage after tonights game. I was ready to call for Minsons omission after he gave away so many free kicks in the first quarter.

I thought Minson played well overall, FWIW.

[LostDoggy]

Really tough call - I though Hill was good tonight. So maybe just 1 change Minson out Johnson in - Everitt to pinch hit ruck. I know it won't happen.

Hill for Johnson.
Moles for Ward (if fully fit)
Eagle to play for Willi

[becmatty]

Agree that Hill and Moles were good today, though they (along with Picken) are under the most pressure.

It would surprise me if all three - Johnno, Eagleton and Ward - return.

Johnno is a certainty, and Eagleton was very busy at Williamstown. Rocket also loves Eagleton, and bald men always stick together. Ward is a class act though, so this is a hard one to call...

[azabob]

We saw last week the danger of going too top heavy in the forward line. If Johnson comes back in, another forward HAS to go out. Hill seems the most likely.

I thought we looked extremely slow in the forward line tonight and last week. Dropping Hill and bringing in Johnson would make us even slower.

A few times tonight we had Hahn, Hall, Minson, Akermanis and Gia in the same forward line. And Richmond cleared the ball so easily.

To be honest I think we will struggle to contain the oppositions run from defence with Hall and Hahn in the forward 50 at the same time.

[becmatty]

I thought we looked extremely slow in the forward line tonight and last week. Dropping Hill and bringing in Johnson would make us even slower.

A few times tonight we had Hahn, Hall, Minson, Akermanis and Gia in the same forward line. And Richmond cleared the ball so easily.

To be honest I think we will struggle to contain the oppositions run from defence with Hall and Hahn in the forward 50 at the same time.

So what are you suggesting? Drop Hahn or Hall??...Both of those players are there to bust open packs and take marks. They achieve that objective and more.

It is up to the coaching staff to generate the rotations to ensure we have enough run in the forward line and I think between Higgins, Gia, Acker, Murphy, Johnno, Hall and Hahn (+ Griff, Coons, Boyd), we are faster and more furious than most...

[comrade]

I thought we looked extremely slow in the forward line tonight and last week. Dropping Hill and bringing in Johnson would make us even slower.

A few times tonight we had Hahn, Hall, Minson, Akermanis and Gia in the same forward line. And Richmond cleared the ball so easily.

To be honest I think we will struggle to contain the oppositions run from defence with Hall and Hahn in the forward 50 at the same time.

It's a good point and will remain an issue until we draft some genuine, pacy small forwards. Until then the forward group will have to rely on their smarts and experience to scrap and harass to try and lock the ball in; if the defensive mindset is lacking even a little bit it will trampoline out, which, against sides with strong rebounders (Geelong/Saints/Pies) means we'll be chasing tail.

I don't think Hahn can get demoted; he worked his way into the game nicely tonight and presented strongly. He will really benefit from Hall sucking in extra defenders. Rocket has also thrown him down back at times, so he does have an extra string to his bow, though with Williams and Everitt down there, it's probably not necessary at the moment.

Hill, whilst good against the Tigers, is the most expendable at this stage.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Why do we have to make way for Johnson, Ward and Eagleton?

Neither should return IMO. Johnson hasn't played enough footy and besides three kicks was ordinary v Collingwood. What's changed after missing this week? Ward needs to play at least a game or two before coming in. Eagleton needs to play 1-2 more too.

Moles, Hill and Everitt all played well. They shouldn't be dropped.

If Johnson and Ward are fit - find your way back through Williamstown. I would have thought that's pure logic after Round 1.

Minson has had two average games and may be under consideration. Gia's been quiet in his first two weeks but he won't be dropped.

No change for mine.

[Rance Fan]

Do the Hawks have any attacking defenders? None jump to mind...maybe Hodge?
Attacking defenders often attack but play off their man. Just need to get into space and hurt them on the scoreboard. Simple...in theory. Oh and chase hard whenwe dont have the ball.
It needs to be a team combined effort, if not defensive pressure wont work that well.
I still like to have Griffen at half forward, playing the defensive and attacking forward. Hes fast and elusive and strong and can tackle.
Noticed Higgins layed 6 tackles which is a better effort than round 1

[Rance Fan]

Why do we have to make way for Johnson, Ward and Eagleton?

Neither should return IMO. Johnson hasn't played enough footy and besides three kicks was ordinary v Collingwood. What's changed after missing this week? Ward needs to play at least a game or two before coming in. Eagleton needs to play 1-2 more too.

Moles, Hill and Everitt all played well. They shouldn't be dropped.

If Johnson and Ward are fit - find your way back through Williamstown. I would have thought that's pure logic after Round 1.

Minson has had two average games and may be under consideration. Gia's been quiet in his first two weeks but he won't be dropped.

No change for mine.
Spot on!
Maybe Roughead for Minson, unlikely change though

[comrade]

Why do we have to make way for Johnson, Ward and Eagleton?


I agree with the sentiment, but can you really see Johnson coming back via the Seagulls?

Regarding Ward and Eagleton: the fact that they're coming off injury AND their pre-season form has been less than stellar means they should play at Williamstown next week.

[becmatty]

Johnson does have to, and WILL come straight back in.

Hill had a reprieve today, but still lacks the hard edge, and aside from some nice sailing grabs, he is yet to convince that he has the metal against a hard team like the Hawks. Johnno will replace him, just as he was originally selected for round 2.

As for ward and Eagleton, they are both under done, I agree. They will be knocking loudly on the door however, so if not this week, they will be back for round 4. So the likes of Picken, Moles, Minson, Everitt will need to perform.

Its a great position for the club to be in, to have to squeeze out four able players, who'd be in the starting line-up at almost every club...

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I agree with the sentiment, but can you really see Johnson coming back via the Seagulls?

Regarding Ward and Eagleton: the fact that they're coming off injury AND their pre-season form has been less than stellar means they should play at Williamstown next week.

I have little doubt Johnson will come straight back in, I just don't agree with it at all. He's not an elite player anymore and as such he shouldn't be given an armchair ride back into the side. He's been a great player and I am confident he can still contribute, but why shouldn't he play at Williamstown for a week or two?

Plus a forward line of Hall, Hahn, Johnson and possibly Minson is far too top heavy.

[becmatty]

Plus a forward line of Hall, Hahn, Johnson and possibly Minson is far too top heavy.

They won't all be playing up forward at the same time. Minno will rotate in the ruck, Johnno through the midfield and all four will spend stints on the bench.

They are all in our best 22 and Johnno still has the magic. One poor game after a limited pre-season and you want to hang a legend of the club. Geeez...

[Doggy]

I have little doubt Johnson will come straight back in, I just don't agree with it at all. He's not an elite player anymore and as such he shouldn't be given an armchair ride back into the side. He's been a great player and I am confident he can still contribute, but why shouldn't he play at Williamstown for a week or two?

Plus a forward line of Hall, Hahn, Johnson and possibly Minson is far too top heavy.
"Plus a forward line of Hall, Hahn, Johnson and possibly Minson is far too top heavy." They can easily play in the same forward line with Johnno pinch hitting off the bench. He is as elite as Aker, Gia, Hahn Hill and is easily in our best 22

[The Bulldogs Bite]

They won't all be playing up forward at the same time. Minno will rotate in the ruck, Johnno through the midfield and all four will spend stints on the bench.

They are all in our best 22 and Johnno still has the magic. One poor game after a limited pre-season and you want to hang a legend of the club. Geeez...

Minson will still spend proportions of the match up forward as he did tonight. Johnson is no midfielder. Look at it whichever way you like, but we're too top heavy with them all on the ground at the same time. We struggled with Hall, Minson and Hahn up forward tonight - adding Johnson will only make it slower.

I'm not hanging a legend of the club out to dry. I just don't buy into the crap that he should be given a free pass into our side when he's clearly not ready. Did you miss last week's game?

We can't afford to carry underdone players. We aren't that good. We rely on an even contribution from across the board.



"Plus a forward line of Hall, Hahn, Johnson and possibly Minson is far too top heavy." They can easily play in the same forward line with Johnno pinch hitting off the bench. He is as elite as Aker, Gia, Hahn Hill and is easily in our best 22

Define elite. Gia, Hahn and Hill are nowhere near it. As good as Aker is, he's not in the top 20 players of the competition either.

It's not always about putting your best 22 players out on the park. It's about implementing the right structures and for mine, our forward line is too slow and is not defensively inclined. Make no mistake about it; we were mauled last week by the likes of O'Brien, Shaw and Maxwell rebounding. Personally I'd never play Minson at FF again.

Johnson should play when 100% fit and match ready. He simply isn't.

[boydogs]

I agree with the sentiment, but can you really see Johnson coming back via the Seagulls?

Regarding Ward and Eagleton: the fact that they're coming off injury AND their pre-season form has been less than stellar means they should play at Williamstown next week.

I agree with TBB and comrade - I would go in unchanged

In reality, I think Johnson will come back in for Hill, i.e. back to the originally selected side for this week. Rocket doesn't like to change the side based on form, the Moles in for Hill decision I think was one of team balance and now he will just let it roll I reckon.

Moles and Picken on the block for when Ward and Eagle are back to 100%

[LostDoggy]

Why do we have to make way for Johnson, Ward and Eagleton?

Neither should return IMO. Johnson hasn't played enough footy and besides three kicks was ordinary v Collingwood. What's changed after missing this week? Ward needs to play at least a game or two before coming in. Eagleton needs to play 1-2 more too.

Moles, Hill and Everitt all played well. They shouldn't be dropped.

If Johnson and Ward are fit - find your way back through Williamstown. I would have thought that's pure logic after Round 1.

Minson has had two average games and may be under consideration. Gia's been quiet in his first two weeks but he won't be dropped.

No change for mine.

You must be kidding not to play the champion captain.Hill will be stiff but after his non chasing and tackling the first week back to Willy he goes. Ward and Fumbleton must start at Willy

[LostDoggy]

Why do we have to make way for Johnson, Ward and Eagleton?

Neither should return IMO. Johnson hasn't played enough footy and besides three kicks was ordinary v Collingwood. What's changed after missing this week? Ward needs to play at least a game or two before coming in. Eagleton needs to play 1-2 more too.

Moles, Hill and Everitt all played well. They shouldn't be dropped.

If Johnson and Ward are fit - find your way back through Williamstown. I would have thought that's pure logic after Round 1.

Minson has had two average games and may be under consideration. Gia's been quiet in his first two weeks but he won't be dropped.

No change for mine.

Good to see someone has the courage to say this. Totally agree.

[LostDoggy]

Good to see someone has the courage to say this. Totally agree.

Team of the century 350 game captain of the club bleeds red white and blue and you want him to play at Willy in preference to either a one gamer or a player who doesnt chase or tackle .... show some respect

[becmatty]

Good to see someone has the courage to say this. Totally agree.


It's not courageous to say play Johnno at Willy - it is plain silly; Johnno has been training full on for most of the summer and the conditioning team have worked overtime to ensure they have simulated near-match conditions for him. Hense the fact that he was selected last week.

If the coaches and staff deemed him ready, then he is ready. They're not going to turn around a week later and say actually, he was ready, but after a week on the sidelines, he now needs match conditioning at Willy.

In: Johnson, Eagleton or Ward
Out: Hill, Moles (unlucky)

Picken and Minno will need to lift to be still around in round 4...

[LostDoggy]

Minson will still spend proportions of the match up forward as he did tonight. Johnson is no midfielder. Look at it whichever way you like, but we're too top heavy with them all on the ground at the same time. We struggled with Hall, Minson and Hahn up forward tonight - adding Johnson will only make it slower.

I'm not hanging a legend of the club out to dry. I just don't buy into the crap that he should be given a free pass into our side when he's clearly not ready. Did you miss last week's game?

We can't afford to carry underdone players. We aren't that good. We rely on an even contribution from across the board.



Johnson should play when 100% fit and match ready. He simply isn't.

Becmatty, Bulldogs Bite is just calling a spade a spade. I love Johnno but we looked top
heavy last week .

[boydogs]

Team of the century 350 game captain of the club bleeds red white and blue and you want him to play at Willy in preference to either a one gamer or a player who doesnt chase or tackle .... show some respect


It's not courageous to say play Johnno at Willy - it is plain silly; Johnno has been training full on for most of the summer and the conditioning team have worked overtime to ensure they have simulated near-match conditions for him. Hense the fact that he was selected last week.

If the coaches and staff deemed him ready, then he is ready. They're not going to turn around a week later and say actually, he was ready, but after a week on the sidelines, he now needs match conditioning at Willy.

In: Johnson, Eagleton or Ward
Out: Hill, Moles (unlucky)

Picken and Minno will need to lift to be still around in round 4...

Personally I think Johnno wasn't ready for round 1, and that he was given a golden ticket back into the side due to the prevailing mentality exhibited by hughy, whereby he was allowed to make the call - unfortunately, his performance was sub par.

Johnno's commitment to the club is unquestioned - however, that is only going to prevent him from ruling himself out, he would play no matter what was wrong with him if he could get away with it as he just wants to help us win. Playing 344 of a possible 350 games shows this.

The coaching staff need to step in and tell him he needs time, he is not going to rule himself out. No shame in needing a couple of weeks to get to full match fitness after missing the entire NAB cup and then having further injury trouble after that

[Dry Rot]

It's not courageous to say play Johnno at Willy - it is plain silly; Johnno has been training full on for most of the summer and the conditioning team have worked overtime to ensure they have simulated near-match conditions for him. Hense the fact that he was selected last week.

If the coaches and staff deemed him ready, then he is ready. They're not going to turn around a week later and say actually, he was ready, but after a week on the sidelines, he now needs match conditioning at Willy.

In: Johnson, Eagleton or Ward
Out: Hill, Moles (unlucky)

Picken and Minno will need to lift to be still around in round 4...

Did you think he looked ready last week?

[Dazza]

The big worry from the Collingwood game was their ability to just run straight off our forwardline with no pressure. I'd agree with another poster that having Minson, Hall and Hahn in the same forwardline isn't ideal.

[Hotdog60]

The big worry from the Collingwood game was their ability to just run straight off our forwardline with no pressure. I'd agree with another poster that having Minson, Hall and Hahn in the same forwardline isn't ideal.

It just wasn't the forward line, they run off from most positions on the ground. The forward structure isn't going to change this season, unless injuries occur.

As cyber coaches I think we'll have a better assessment of the line up after round 6 or 7 when we see what our win/loss ratio is.

[Doc26]

Johnno was clearly underdone for last week's game with his lack of forward defensive pressure hurting us terribly with Heater and Harry O running the ball out at will. Although Johnno wasn't alone in hindsight it was a wrong selection.

I do disagree with an earlier comment indicating Hawthorn may not have similar options available to them as Collingwood did in their backline. Hodge for sure, Birchall and even Ellis could hurt us in a similar vein if we're not on our game in terms of "frontal pressure".

I would stick with Moles as we need every midfield option available to us to combat the Hawk mids and Johnno is no permanent midfield option. Cal unfortunately is not ready. Would leave Josh Hill as he offers a point of difference to a forward line that can look quite old and sluggish. Big Will must be under scrutiny after two ordinary performances. I also agree with TBB's earlier comment that Gia 'won't' get dropped but for me this is only circumstantial.

The ruck is a current Hawk weakness, should we exploit this by (arguably) keeping Will or load up elsewhere by bringing back the favourite son who is underdone and who may continue to expose our forward line achilles heel ? Johnno will be straight back if and when he's in a position to contribute offensively and defensively in our forward fifty.

And what's with putting Picken on the table ? He's there to do a shutdown job each week which for the 2 games I've been to this year he's had pass marks in each mitigating both Lockyer's and Deledio's effectiveness.

And on a side note I would like to start a push eventually for Easton Wood to help lessen our predictability predicament

[Ozza]

Glad the people saying Johnno should play at Willi aren't picking the side. We can only go on last years form to rate where Johno is at - and he was bloody good last year, averaging over 20 possessions a game and being a match winner a couple of times (and close to it one other time!). Clubs will still be very wary of Johno - and so they should be, he has always copped a top line defender and he'd still make mince meat of anything less than a quality player. How short everyone's memories can be about one of our greatest. On leadership and competitiveness alone he walks into the side regardless and his output is still tremendous as a mid sized forward. He is way way ahead of Hill and Moles - and plenty of others for that matter. If the docs say he is fit to go - he plays Seniors.

Bit harsh also to say Picken would need to lift his game etc. He was good on Deledio today and limited his influence, in particular keeping his kicks down where he is damaging. Deledio was under pressure when he did get the ball, and Picko found it 13 times himself and kicked a goal. Picken has the runs on the board, and the same people who say he should make way - will be the same that say 'we really missed Picken's pressure and hardness' if we get carved up.

Ward and Eagle go through Willy, the Champ comes back in if ready and the changes will depend on whether we have Everitt part time ruck due to the Hawks lack of a ruckman. Not sure whether we will try to tweak the side for this or not - glad I'm not having to decide which tact to go with there.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Glad the people saying Johnno should play at Willi aren't picking the side. We can only go on last years form to rate where Johno is at - and he was bloody good last year, averaging over 20 possessions a game and being a match winner a couple of times (and close to it one other time!).

I don't understand this.

How can you pick ANY player based on last year's form? It's completely irrelevant.

Johnson might be fit in terms of running laps and weaving through witches hats, but he hasn't got the touch yet. He's played 1 game out of a possible 6 this year. How can we expect him to slip right in and perform at a high level against quality opposition? He might be a great player, but he's not superhuman and this was already proven vs Collingwood in Round 1.

Is it really so bad to ask Johnson to find some touch playing for Williamstown? It's a long season and we've got to manage our players properly. This was something we didn't do well in 08/09.

It's got nothing to do with showing 'respect' as another posted suggested above. That's crap. It's got everything to do with logic.

[LostDoggy]

I don't understand this.

How can you pick ANY player based on last year's form? It's completely irrelevant.

Johnson might be fit in terms of running laps and weaving through witches hats, but he hasn't got the touch yet. He's played 1 game out of a possible 6 this year. How can we expect him to slip right in and perform at a high level against quality opposition? He might be a great player, but he's not superhuman and this was already proven vs Collingwood in Round 1.

Is it really so bad to ask Johnson to find some touch playing for Williamstown? It's a long season and we've got to manage our players properly. This was something we didn't do well in 08/09.

It's got nothing to do with showing 'respect' as another posted suggested above. That's crap. It's got everything to do with logic.

Logic says pick the proven champion and not Hill, who was terrible against Collingwood . Dont get carried away with 3 goals against the Richmonds Goats .Hill has let us down before thats why he was dropped for the finals last year. For what its worth i thought Johnno got us back in the game in the second quarter and his game, when on the field was ok.

[LostDoggy]

Minson's first 2 games have been very poor IMO. You wouldn't think he'd get dropped making him very lucky indeed.

[chef]

Why do we have to make way for Johnson, Ward and Eagleton?

Neither should return IMO. Johnson hasn't played enough footy and besides three kicks was ordinary v Collingwood. What's changed after missing this week? Ward needs to play at least a game or two before coming in. Eagleton needs to play 1-2 more too.

Moles, Hill and Everitt all played well. They shouldn't be dropped.

If Johnson and Ward are fit - find your way back through Williamstown. I would have thought that's pure logic after Round 1.

Minson has had two average games and may be under consideration. Gia's been quiet in his first two weeks but he won't be dropped.

No change for mine.

Agree, we have a huge month coming up and we can't afford to carrying underdone players.


Team of the century 350 game captain of the club bleeds red white and blue and you want him to play at Willy in preference to either a one gamer or a player who doesnt chase or tackle .... show some respect

Johnson has played 1 game(including practice games) since September last year, no individual is bigger than the team and over the next month we cannot afford to carry anyone.

How did you feel about West playing at Willi last year?

[chef]

Round 3 Vs Hawthorn poses a few headaches at the selection table.

With skipper Brad Johnson set to return and the liklihood of both Ward and Eagleton being available, means that there will be some unlucky players this week.

Of the current 22, the following players will come under the closest scrutiny: Hill, Moles, Picken, Everitt and Minson.

Thoughts?...

None of them will be match fit enough, so I don't see it as a problem them week.

Of the players under scrutiny, Minson would be safe(unless Roughie is on fire at Willi) as we need two ruckmen and Everitt offers so much variety for Rocket(and he's playing alright). Hill, Moles and Picken would be the players to make way.

[mjp]

Ward and Eagleton will be sent to Williamstown but that will only delay the question by a week or so.

I suspect Johnson will replace Moles - I dont think this is a good move but I do think it is what will happen. Longer term I suspect we will have to lose one defender and one forward to make way for Ward and Eagleton (mids)...personally I think we need to lose two forwards, but as we wont drop Hall/Hahn/Higgins/Johnson/Aker/Gia then there are not two there to lose.

Hill and Everitt will drop out long-term unless they do something remarkable.
Dropping Minson is pretty short-sighted unless it is to play Roughy. Going in with only one ruck option is OK if you have cover within the team...and cover for your cover. Maybe Everitt or Williams could pinch hit for 5 minutes a q, but what if Huddo is injured? And who covers Williams or Everitt down back?

[LostDoggy]

Agree, we have a huge month coming up and we can't afford to carrying underdone players.



Johnson has played 1 game(including practice games) since September last year, no individual is bigger than the team and over the next month we cannot afford to carry anyone.

How did you feel about West playing at Willi last year?

West was broken down... he should have pulled the pin himself
Johnno or Hill .. a 3quarter fit Johnno is my pick

[chef]

West was broken down... he should have pulled the pin himself
Johnno or Hill .. a 3quarter fit Johnno is my pick

Don't agree.

[LostDoggy]

Is Minson the new whipping boy of this forum now.

I thought his ruckwork was ok today which is what he is in the side to do and as long as he is rucking ok and presenting his big body when he has to his job is done.

[LongWait]

Gia is the player who appears to be getting off lightly on this thread. Has played two poor games and exhibits both of the deficits that worry me about our forward line: insufficient leg-speed and little defensive pressure. Sure he can kick the ball, but he is no longer "half man and half cappuccino" - he appears to be all cappuccino. Too much froth and too little substance for mine.

To bring Johnno back and leave Gia in the side further exascerbates our lack of speed and pressure on the ball-carriers and runners. Too many of our forwards can be run-off easily and we will pay a heavy price against good opposition.

Of course Rocket will stick with Gia, as he did all of last season.

[LostDoggy]

One poor game after a limited pre-season and you want to hang a legend of the club. Geeez...

I dont think anyone is hanging a legend .... just stating fact.

We all expect he will come straight into the team but are questioning why he should get such an easy ride given his lack of match preparation due to his persistent injury. It is not as if he injured himself mid-season and needed a couple of weeks to recover ....... his pre-season was hampered, he only played one NAB Cup game and couldnt play the following week, and has played in round one and couldn't play this week.

Our club is now a very professional unit and there are plenty of player knocking the door down to get into this team and Jonno's situation does raise the question as to why he should not go through Willi when he doesnt have any form on the board.

[Mantis]

Ward and Eagleton will be sent to Williamstown but that will only delay the question by a week or so.

I suspect Johnson will replace Moles - I dont think this is a good move but I do think it is what will happen. Longer term I suspect we will have to lose one defender and one forward to make way for Ward and Eagleton (mids)...personally I think we need to lose two forwards, but as we wont drop Hall/Hahn/Higgins/Johnson/Aker/Gia then there are not two there to lose.

Hill and Everitt will drop out long-term unless they do something remarkable.
Dropping Minson is pretty short-sighted unless it is to play Roughy. Going in with only one ruck option is OK if you have cover within the team...and cover for your cover. Maybe Everitt or Williams could pinch hit for 5 minutes a q, but what if Huddo is injured? And who covers Williams or Everitt down back?

I agree that these 2 would be most likely to make way, but is that view being short-sighted?

What I mean is that over the next 1 to 3 years we will see quite a few of our older players make way and it would be hoped that players like Hill & Everitt take over in terms of output. If we continually overlook them for more experienced players (who perhaps aren't out-performing these 2) are we a chance of them becoming disgruntled and asking to be traded and thus losing out big time.

I know we are right in the 'thick of the action' in terms of being a contender and thus we need to give our team the best chance of winning each week, but do we also have to have an eye on the future?

I guess it's going to be a real balancing act this year to ensure we get games into our younger 'fringe' players to continue their development and also give our team the best chance of winning games.

[LostDoggy]

Not sure who will be picked as I have no idea why some players are and aren't at times. Seem obvious to me from the outside what needs to happen but have been baffled by selection many a time.

Johno probably needs another week and if he is to precious to risk at Willi then needs to do some match practice type training instead.

Ward should not play and needs to gain his fitness at Willi. One of my favorites but not an automatic selection from injury as yet.

Eagleton is another not at full fitness yet and it comes down between him and moles for me. Everrit is playing well and I think not in running to be dropped. We have seen how players drop of Hill with Hall in the side and with his Marking ability would be silly to drop.

[Mofra]

I have little doubt Johnson will come straight back in, I just don't agree with it at all. He's not an elite player anymore and as such he shouldn't be given an armchair ride back into the side. He's been a great player and I am confident he can still contribute, but why shouldn't he play at Williamstown for a week or two?

Plus a forward line of Hall, Hahn, Johnson and possibly Minson is far too top heavy.
I don't agree that a 182cm player makes us top heavy, and I don't agree that in the space of one pre-season he's gone from 4th in the B&F of the 3rd placed side, to a player who can merely "contribute" sometime later in the season.

I'd have him in ahead of Hill for next week's game as the change I'd make to the side as we are simply a better side with him in it, and Hill still goes missing for periods in games which tends to be highlighted against better opponents. The point on defensive pressure is important however it is one he worked on last year and has stressed the importance of this year; a jump from 37 tackles in 08 to 66 in 09 indicates he has adapted his style of play to what is required.

[DOG GOD]

Unless Johnno is 100%, i wouldnt play him, especially with our slow fwd line as it is. Eagle and Ward shouldnt even get a look in until they come back thru Willy.

Regarding our slow fwd line, i think it's important for the right rotations going through there. For example, when Hall and Hahn are there, so should Griffen and Cooney to add the explosiveness and defensive pressure. Rotate Hahn with Murphy and its ok to have Aker or Higgins thru there. I guess what i'm saying is to have 3 slowers and 3 quicks (in an ideal world of 6 fwds hehe) in the fwd line.

[Doggy]

"Define elite". In my opinion elite means 0ne of the Best in the competition. You are saying Johnno shouldn't play because he is no longer elite and I am saying he is equal to, if not better than Hahn, Hill, and Gia even with no match practice.

[Go_Dogs]

I know we are right in the 'thick of the action' in terms of being a contender and thus we need to give our team the best chance of winning each week, but do we also have to have an eye on the future?

I guess it's going to be a real balancing act this year to ensure we get games into our younger 'fringe' players to continue their development and also give our team the best chance of winning games.

I think you're spot on, given that we are going to have a significant portion of our side turnover in the next couple of seasons.

Guys like Hill, Everitt, Reid, Addison, Wood, Stack, Roughead, Grant, Jones etc are all likely to get games at some stage this season - and they must - we need to be able to expose these guys a little and keep developing them. Some won't need to shoulder a significant burden early on in the piece 2011-2012, but will need to be able to step up and become key components to our side if we are to maintain our success for the next 5-10 years, whilst others are going to need to fill gaps more urgently.

A real balancing act like you suggest Mantis, but a necessary one, and an important one, that could really shape our next 5-10 years.

[Hotdog60]

I suppose with Johnno is the same with the crows playing the Birdman he was in terrible touch on the weekend, drop just about every mark.

But you can still put Johnno in the pocket and he would still draw a quality defender, even if he could take away his oppenent from the play 70% of the time.

One less ganging up on Barry.

And Johnno did spot up BBB with some good passing.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I'd have him in ahead of Hill for next week's game as the change I'd make to the side as we are simply a better side with him in it, and Hill still goes missing for periods in games which tends to be highlighted against better opponents. The point on defensive pressure is important however it is one he worked on last year and has stressed the importance of this year; a jump from 37 tackles in 08 to 66 in 09 indicates he has adapted his style of play to what is required.

Johnson didn't lay a tackle v Collingwood.

In full flight, no doubt Johnson is picked long before Hill. Right now - he isn't and understandably so.


"Define elite". In my opinion elite means 0ne of the Best in the competition. You are saying Johnno shouldn't play because he is no longer elite and I am saying he is equal to, if not better than Hahn, Hill, and Gia even with no match practice.

I'm sorry, but Johnson is not one of the best players in the competition anymore. Elite covers perhaps 10 players in the competition and Johnson isn't in that anymore. It's not to say he isn't a fantastic player because he is.

Round 1 proved Johnson wasn't ready.

That's the last I'll enter into this debate though.

[LostDoggy]

Gia is the player who appears to be getting off lightly on this thread. Has played two poor games and exhibits both of the deficits that worry me about our forward line: insufficient leg-speed and little defensive pressure. Sure he can kick the ball, but he is no longer "half man and half cappuccino" - he appears to be all cappuccino. Too much froth and too little substance for mine.

To bring Johnno back and leave Gia in the side further exascerbates our lack of speed and pressure on the ball-carriers and runners. Too many of our forwards can be run-off easily and we will pay a heavy price against good opposition.

Of course Rocket will stick with Gia, as he did all of last season.

I think you should go and watch the game again, to say Gia was poor yesterday shows how much about football you know

[azabob]

That's the last I'll enter into this debate though.

I think you have debated quite well and I agree with what you have said.

Quite frankly our forward line the first 2 rounds have been slow and have not been able to chase the opposition out of defensive 50.

As a starting point I dont think Hudson or Minson should spend anytime what so ever inside our forward 50, especially if Hall and Hahn are playing.

Will be very interesing moving forward from round 3 onwards

[Rance Fan]

Chasing and defensive pressure needs to be done by all players on the park. Not just the forwards. Its like a zone defence - one or two dont put it the effort, it makes life easier for the opposition.
What i hate is when 3 guys leave their man to chase the man with the ball, which inturn leaves their opponents for the received ball. A bit of forward thinking instead of all being drawn to the ball would help.

[Bulldog Joe]

Minson's first 2 games have been very poor IMO. You wouldn't think he'd get dropped making him very lucky indeed.


Minson's ruck work has been very good in both games.

The combo of Hudson/Minson gives us a point of difference over every team in the comp, with their strength and aggression at the contest not matched by another side.

While Hawthorn are ordinary in this area, it will be important against Brisbane and St Kilda.

What we need is to make sure we get first use of the ball with good strategies to utilise our strengths and improve the quality of the clearance work.

[mjp]

I agree that these 2 would be most likely to make way, but is that view being short-sighted?



Yes. But I have been saying the same thing about our forward line and team structure for ages.

We are playing too many forwards and too many slow forwards. Because of this, one has to be sacrificed - and I cannot see it being Aker, Johnson, Hall or Hahn...therefore it will be Hill. We will convince ourselves that Higgins and Gia are ready for midfield duties (they aren't) and justify the selection that way. Someone else will simply have to make way - it cannot be a midfielder and therefore will be one of Gilbee (no), Shaggy (no), Harbrow or Everitt.

[hujsh]

Team of the century 350 game captain of the club bleeds red white and blue and you want him to play at Willy in preference to either a one gamer or a player who doesnt chase or tackle .... show some respect

If it was good enough for Grant to play at Werribee then it's good enough for Johnson. The team is above any individual even one with Johnson's record.

[Ozza]

If it was good enough for Grant to play at Werribee then it's good enough for Johnson. The team is above any individual even one with Johnson's record.

Johnson hasn't been out with a long term injury so it is a completely different scenario. This rubbish about 'no individual is bigger than the team' is irrelevant. And its not about Johnson being 'too good' to play in the VFL. My view is that Johnson makes us a better team so thats why he should be picked. He is hardly 'way off' being match fit - he did the vast majority of the pre-season and has done about 15 pre-seasons before which means his fitness base is already very strong.

I find that plenty of posters on this sight love to kick with the breeze. Last week the view was that Hill should be dropped, he comes back into the side as a late inclusion and kicks 3 against Richmond who are completely hopeless and suddenly everyone is in love with him again. It was the same thing in last years finals when Griffen and Gia struggled v Geelong, and plenty jumped off them. Both players were in the best 3 the following week and everyone was back in love with them again.

Perhaps I place a bit more value on the 'runs on the board' way of thinking. For mine - I wanna stick with the proven players in the big games - and I won't be potting the calls of the WB staff on whether players are ready to go or not.

[Pickenitup]

No change for mine this week Cal needs to play at least 1 game for Willi same for Eages one more
for Willi then bring them both back for Brisbane as they both play well against the lions.
I think we need to give Johnno 2 weeks of hard training and bring hime back for the Crows game
i think a Interstate game may not be good for the body and the Hawks game is just Too much of
a Risk as it is a Huge game for us.

[always right]

No change for mine. Give Johnno another week and allow Hill to prove his mettle in a high pressure game. No way known should Minson be dropped. Anyone who saw the Hawks V Cats game today should know we can gain a massive advantage running two ruckmen against the hawks.

[LostDoggy]

Minson needs to be dropped, but at the same time playing a debutant may turn out worse.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Round 3 Vs Hawthorn poses a few headaches at the selection table.

With skipper Brad Johnson set to return and the liklihood of both Ward and Eagleton being available, means that there will be some unlucky players this week.

Of the current 22, the following players will come under the closest scrutiny: Hill, Moles, Picken, Everitt and Minson.

Thoughts?...

Ward should return if fit for the unlucky Moles. Similarly Johnno for Hill who would be stiff to be dropped, based on yesterday's game against Richmond. Eagleton to return via Williamstown..

[LostDoggy]

Johnson hasn't been out with a long term injury so it is a completely different scenario. This rubbish about 'no individual is bigger than the team' is irrelevant. And its not about Johnson being 'too good' to play in the VFL. My view is that Johnson makes us a better team so thats why he should be picked. He is hardly 'way off' being match fit - he did the vast majority of the pre-season and has done about 15 pre-seasons before which means his fitness base is already very strong.

I find that plenty of posters on this sight love to kick with the breeze. Last week the view was that Hill should be dropped, he comes back into the side as a late inclusion and kicks 3 against Richmond who are completely hopeless and suddenly everyone is in love with him again. It was the same thing in last years finals when Griffen and Gia struggled v Geelong, and plenty jumped off them. Both players were in the best 3 the following week and everyone was back in love with them again.

Perhaps I place a bit more value on the 'runs on the board' way of thinking. For mine - I wanna stick with the proven players in the big games - and I won't be potting the calls of the WB staff on whether players are ready to go or not.

Yes Yes Ozza plenty on the site like kicking with the breeze... a lot potted Griffen last year in the finals and he came out and was B.O.G ...anybody owning up to that?
Looks like 3 votes for Johnno and 2 for Minson this week

[chef]

Yes Yes Ozza plenty on the site like kicking with the breeze... a lot potted Griffen last year in the finals and he came out and was B.O.G ...anybody owning up to that?
Looks like 3 votes for Johnno and 2 for Minson this week

People are just suggesting that maybe Johnno may need a game at Willi first(I am one of them). You suggested that he was above that and it was disrespectful to suggest it(Chris Grant came back through reserves football). Isn't this what WOOF is for?

[LostDoggy]

People are just suggesting that maybe Johnno may need a game at Willi first(I am one of them). You suggested that he was above that and it was disrespectful to suggest it(Chris Grant came back through reserves football). Isn't this what WOOF is for?

Yes Chef your right its a forum but the knee jerk reaction from week to week annoys me.If you asked half of our forum they were happy for Johnno to play the first week now they want to change their minds and as Ozza desribes kick with the wind and play him at Willy.

[boydogs]

But you can still put Johnno in the pocket and he would still draw a quality defender, even if he could take away his oppenent from the play 70% of the time.

Heath Shaw killed us last week, he wasn't drawn away from the play


As a starting point I dont think Hudson or Minson should spend anytime what so ever inside our forward 50, especially if Hall and Hahn are playing.

What should we do with them then? Would hurt our midfield rotation to have them on the bench all the time. Everitt into the ruck and Minson out of the side?


Yes. But I have been saying the same thing about our forward line and team structure for ages.

We are playing too many forwards and too many slow forwards. Because of this, one has to be sacrificed - and I cannot see it being Aker, Johnson, Hall or Hahn...therefore it will be Hill. We will convince ourselves that Higgins and Gia are ready for midfield duties (they aren't) and justify the selection that way. Someone else will simply have to make way - it cannot be a midfielder and therefore will be one of Gilbee (no), Shaggy (no), Harbrow or Everitt.

One answer would be to rotate our over 30 players in and out of the side through the year, keeping our forward line nimble and our older players fresh for finals


Ward should return if fit for the unlucky Moles. Similarly Johnno for Hill who would be stiff to be dropped, based on yesterday's game against Richmond. Eagleton to return via Williamstown..

Why have you got Ward & Johnno coming straight back but not Eagle?

[G-Mo77]

Why should players make way? I am yet to see the game but if players performed well why should they be dropped? Eagle and Ward can work their way back in the side like everyone else, it wouldn't hurt Johnno either.

I think Hawthorn will have a lot more worries come Thursday than we will. :D

[hujsh]

This rubbish about 'no individual is bigger than the team' is irrelevant.

Wow. That says it all. Did you miss Granty's speech about the club's culture?

Honestly I don't believe that Hill deserves a place over Johnson but I do think a game at Williamstown to help him build up fitness and confidence will serve Johnson well and will be a benefit to him come seasons end. Hill is not bad cover and will probably get plenty of time at Williamstown to work on his game in the coming weeks anyway.

[chef]

Yes Chef your right its a forum but the knee jerk reaction from week to week annoys me.If you asked half of our forum they were happy for Johnno to play the first week now they want to change their minds and as Ozza desribes kick with the wind and play him at Willy.

People's opinions change as quick as the players form does:).

[Dry Rot]

Yes Chef your right its a forum but the knee jerk reaction from week to week annoys me.If you asked half of our forum they were happy for Johnno to play the first week now they want to change their minds and as Ozza desribes kick with the wind and play him at Willy.

FWIW I wasn't happy for Johnno to play Rd 1 and IMO I don't think it's any disrespect for a such a player to get some game time at Willy before returning.

[azabob]

What should we do with them then? Would hurt our midfield rotation to have them on the bench all the time. Everitt into the ruck and Minson out of the side?







In my post I never said drop Minson. And Im against having Everitt Ruck.

My main point being (which you deleted out) was that we need to be very careful with our forwards inside 50.

At times last night we had Minson, Hall, Hahn, Akermanins and Gia as the players inside 50. No disrespect to either of them they are not exactly the quickest blokes going around and therefore will struggle to be the opposition defence running the ball out.

[jazzadogs]

Yes Chef your right its a forum but the knee jerk reaction from week to week annoys me.If you asked half of our forum they were happy for Johnno to play the first week now they want to change their minds and as Ozza desribes kick with the wind and play him at Willy.
I didn't really want Johnno to play Round 1, but respected the match committee and medical staff enough to assume he would be fit to play. After seeing him play, I think they made a mistake, and hope that they have learnt from it.

If they believe that he is ahead of where he was before round 1, then he should come in for Hill. Moles/Picken/Everitt/whoever else has been mentioned add more to the side, position wise, than Hill. Johnson will play as a 95% forward.

If there is any doubt about Johnno's ability to run out the game, then he should be brought in through Williamstown. All players would agree that no matter how much pre-season you do, nothing prepares you like actual matches. Johnno has played one.

Minson should not be dropped. He is much the same against Johnno, his pre-season was destroyed by Soy Milk. Whilst he makes stupid decisions, his ruckwork is strong enough to keep him in the side (and Renouf is not a player that will hurt us anyway).

[Dry Rot]

Whatever happens in the next few weeks is one thing, but for the rest of the season IMO mjp and The Bulldogs Bite have raised very good questions about our structure and personnel.

And I think they're right.

[becmatty]

I find that plenty of posters on this sight love to kick with the breeze. Last week the view was that Hill should be dropped, he comes back into the side as a late inclusion and kicks 3 against Richmond who are completely hopeless and suddenly everyone is in love with him again. It was the same thing in last years finals when Griffen and Gia struggled v Geelong, and plenty jumped off them. Both players were in the best 3 the following week and everyone was back in love with them again.

Perhaps I place a bit more value on the 'runs on the board' way of thinking. For mine - I wanna stick with the proven players in the big games - and I won't be potting the calls of the WB staff on whether players are ready to go or not.

Spot on Ozza.

Runs on the board counts for a great deal. It means experience and reliability. With games agains Hawthorn, 'The Bears' , St Kilda and Adelaide coming up in the next month, we need Johnno in the heart of the action.

I would like to see what people say if he comes out and kicks 4 or 5 against the Hawks...

[comrade]

I would like to see what people say if he comes out and kicks 4 or 5 against the Hawks...

We'd all be rapt because it probably means we've won.

But that doesn't mean we can't have a healthy debate about the merits of his selection on an online forum.

[jazzadogs]

Spot on Ozza.

Runs on the board counts for a great deal. It means experience and reliability. With games agains Hawthorn, 'The Bears' , St Kilda and Adelaide coming up in the next month, we need Johnno in the heart of the action.

I would like to see what people say if he comes out and kicks 4 or 5 against the Hawks...

He shouldn't be getting into the side based on reputation. He should be getting in based on fitness, and after watching the Collingwood game I dispute that he is fit enough to run out a game this weekend.

If the match committee decide that he is fit enough and he plays well, then good on them. They know more about his conditioning than any of us do. I don't agree with leaving it up to Johnno though. The fitness/medical staff should be deciding if he's good to go based on objective measures, not based on "Hey Johnno do you reckon you're right to go?".

If he's not capable of playing a full game, he doesn't get included in the side. Simple. Let him work his way into it at Williamstown, where a below par performance is not going to cost us 4 points. Same for Eagle and Ward.

[chef]

Spot on Ozza.

Runs on the board counts for a great deal. It means experience and reliability. With games agains Hawthorn, 'The Bears' , St Kilda and Adelaide coming up in the next month, we need Johnno in the heart of the action.

I would like to see what people say if he comes out and kicks 4 or 5 against the Hawks...

But he's played 1 game since September last year(including practice games).

[becmatty]

We'd all be rapt because it probably means we've won.

But that doesn't mean we can't have a healthy debate about the merits of his selection on an online forum.

Did I suggest that we shouldn't have a debate about this?

I was the one who created this post, so I am pleased to hear a wide range of views. Thanks for the constructive feedback though, Comrade!

Anyway, my side to defeat the Hawks is:

B: Harbrow Lake Morris
HB Hargreave Williams Gilbee
C Griffen Boyd Giansiracusa
HF Higgins Hahn Murphy
F Akermanis Hall JOHNSON (!!)
Foll Hudson Cross Cooney
Int Everitt Moles Minson Picken
Emerg: Eagleton Roughead Hill

Ward to return via Willy and be back along with Eagleton next week...

[Ozza]

Wow. That says it all. Did you miss Granty's speech about the club's culture?
.

Tell me what it has to do with this scenario? Is Johnno stomping his feet and saying someone must be dropped for him? Is he demanding he doesn't play in the VFL?

Club culture and the notion of individuals not being bigger than the team is great - and perfectly valid. But it isn't what this discussion is about.

If the club feels Johnno is ready to go - then he will be picked. And its not because of his name. Its because he has been a gun player for 15 years, is still a great player and is in our best 22 every day of the week.

The Hawks were fiercely competitive today and when the heat is on next week - I'd prefer to have one of our toughest competitors there if he's declared fit.

[Dry Rot]

T

If the club feels Johnno is ready to go - then he will be picked.

Maybe that's the problem.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Did I suggest that we shouldn't have a debate about this?

I was the one who created this post, so I am pleased to hear a wide range of views. Thanks for the constructive feedback though, Comrade!

Anyway, my side to defeat the Hawks is:

B: Harbrow Lake Morris
HB Hargreave Williams Gilbee
C Griffen Boyd Giansiracusa
HF Higgins Hahn Murphy
F Akermanis Hall JOHNSON (!!)
Foll Hudson Cross Cooney
Int Everitt Moles Minson Picken
Emerg: Eagleton Roughead Hill

Ward to return via Willy and be back along with Eagleton next week...

I'm with Becmatty on this one (although there's no certainty Ward or Eagleton will be walk up starts next week either).

Hill kicking 3 against Richmond is like Marcus North scoring a ton v New Zealand. I give him no credit until he does it against decent opposition.

[Bulldog4life]

Whatever happens in the next few weeks is one thing, but for the rest of the season IMO mjp and The Bulldogs Bite have raised very good questions about our structure and personnel.

And I think they're right.

Everone who has an opinion on this forum thinks that they....themselves ....are right. That's what makes it a delight to read.

[boydogs]

Yes Chef your right its a forum but the knee jerk reaction from week to week annoys me.If you asked half of our forum they were happy for Johnno to play the first week now they want to change their minds and as Ozza desribes kick with the wind and play him at Willy.

You are probably right hughy31, but we really had no idea would sort of condition he was in before round 1. Now we know, our views have changed


In my post I never said drop Minson. And Im against having Everitt Ruck.

My main point being (which you deleted out) was that we need to be very careful with our forwards inside 50.

At times last night we had Minson, Hall, Hahn, Akermanins and Gia as the players inside 50. No disrespect to either of them they are not exactly the quickest blokes going around and therefore will struggle to be the opposition defence running the ball out.

Nothing wrong with being careful when Minson plays forward and who else is down there at the time, in fact I would agree with you on that. That is different however to never playing him forward again which is what I thought you were suggesting with that comment:
As a starting point I dont think Hudson or Minson should spend anytime what so ever inside our forward 50, especially if Hall and Hahn are playing.

[LostDoggy]

One of the problems has been delivery of the ball into the forward line. If our forwards are well drilled enough to create space we should enhance our scoring. It seems we are struggling to get the mix with BH right. We seem to be missing one speedster coming in...and that is Eagle off the wing. Whilst I am happy to see the improvement in Everett, and prefer his marking ability over Eagles, when on song, Eagleton can run the lines and kick long to position. We were sadly missing this from Gilbee against Collingwood. Against Richmond we spend much time with dinky little kicks that didn't hit their marks when we would have been better off creating space and kicking long over the head of the forward to run back onto. We are missing too many targets. Now the problem is has Eagleton still got it? He seems to get caught more now, and by playing him, we are denying a younger player, like Everett, the opportunity to improve.

We have recruited a couple of speedsters over the years, but they are not ready for the big time. Stack looked promising. What happened to him? But they have to have hardness and apply defensive pressure as well as skill speed and poise. I can't see them being elevated until we find we aren't kicking enough goals or are conceding too many easy ones from rebounds.

So Johnno in for Hill.

Which leaves us with an ageing forward line. Not a problem if we direct the ball better into our forward line. It's a problem when we misdirect our passes and kick under pressure. If we cough up the ball as easily as we have done in the previous 2 games, and don't apply defensive pressure across the board, then it does become a major concern. If everyone is sticking to strict team rules re tackling, positioning and helping each other out with numbers to the ball, it seems to me that an ageing forward line won't be the achilles heel we all think it is going to be.

We don't have a Rioili so we have to make do with a slower forward line. It doesn't mean it can't work. Time will tell whether we have change forced upon us.

[LostDoggy]

We need to centre the ball earlier so that Hall has somewhere to lead. Too often we ran the ball along the boundary and into the forward 50 to the forward pocket and with Richmond defenders taking up that space Hall had no where to go.

That's how Hall was so successful in the NAB cup by leading straight up the centre.

[Mofra]

I agree that these 2 would be most likely to make way, but is that view being short-sighted?

What I mean is that over the next 1 to 3 years we will see quite a few of our older players make way and it would be hoped that players like Hill & Everitt take over in terms of output. If we continually overlook them for more experienced players (who perhaps aren't out-performing these 2) are we a chance of them becoming disgruntled and asking to be traded and thus losing out big time.

I know we are right in the 'thick of the action' in terms of being a contender and thus we need to give our team the best chance of winning each week, but do we also have to have an eye on the future?

I guess it's going to be a real balancing act this year to ensure we get games into our younger 'fringe' players to continue their development and also give our team the best chance of winning games.
It's a fair point and probably worth a thread in it's own right; however, the other side of the coin is just as problematic.

With free agency almost certainly to make an appearance in the next few years, do we want to send the message that senior guys will be sacrificed for younger players whenever the opportunity arises? Adelaide are facing a similar problem with their "no 2 years contracts for over 30s" and it has already cost them Welsh (not so costly) and Hudson (very problematic). If guys are looking at clubs to go to/leave, they will obviously gravitate towards those that support their senior players, specially those that play whoever will contribute the most.

The safest path IMO would be to play guys who the match committee expect will make the greatest positive impact on the side and make age only a secondary consideration.

[Go_Dogs]

Which leaves us with an ageing forward line. Not a problem if we direct the ball better into our forward line. It's a problem when we misdirect our passes and kick under pressure. If we cough up the ball as easily as we have done in the previous 2 games, and don't apply defensive pressure across the board, then it does become a major concern. If everyone is sticking to strict team rules re tackling, positioning and helping each other out with numbers to the ball, it seems to me that an ageing forward line won't be the achilles heel we all think it is going to be.


Good post, and I think you've assessed the situation in a fair and balanced way.

Our forward line is still going to very much be a work in progress over the first half of the season, and it's probably a shame that Hall had such a dominant NAB Cup, because now we expect that as the standard (as supporters) and have become a bit lazy with our delivery (the players).

Getting the delivery, and the defensive pressure right, and we should do alright.

[LongWait]

I think you should go and watch the game again, to say Gia was poor yesterday shows how much about football you know

Well Sunshine, excuse me for having an opinion which differs from yours!

To be accurate: I didn't say Gia was "poor yesterday", I said he lacks leg speed and defensive pressure but he can kick the ball well. I also said in the first two games we have seen too little substance from Gia. He racks up the possessions but that is not my point. I am not alone in this view my friend.

We have a lot of competition for spots and some glaring weaknesses in our playing style up forward, so you'd better get used to Gia and others coming under scrutiny at times.

[LostDoggy]

I agree that these 2 would be most likely to make way, but is that view being short-sighted?


I personally would love to see us continue to play Everitt and Hill as much as possible.

When Johnson is ready to return most people nominate Hill to miss out, but IMO Hill offers a dimension to our forward line no one else can offer. I really don't know who misses out for Johnno but I personally hope Hill can retain his spot.

[LostDoggy]

I don't think Gia is a great player. He gets his job done most the time and get his hands on the ball. But he is far from a match winner or a player who will rack up votes in the Brownlow.

[Mantis]

I don't think Gia is a great player. He gets his job done most the time and get his hands on the ball. But he is far from a match winner or a player who will rack up votes in the Brownlow.

How does how many votes you gather in the Brownlow have any say in the value you have to your team? I would have thought that how you poll in the B&F would be a much better indication of how imporatant you are to your team.

[Hotdog60]

I don't think Gia is a great player. He gets his job done most the time and get his hands on the ball. But he is far from a match winner or a player who will rack up votes in the Brownlow.

The Brownlow is probably a bad example to use when judging a players worth, as the points are given by the umpires and a high percentage of winners are usually on ballers who are in the center of the action with the umpires.

Not saying that these winners don't deserve it but as a value to the team if you had Cooney dashing out of the center and placing a good pass to a forward who may score and goal or point to a back man like Morris who stopped Jonathan Brown from scoring anything by punching all day.

Who would rate higher in the team.

[Mofra]

I don't think Gia is a great player. He gets his job done most the time and get his hands on the ball. But he is far from a match winner or a player who will rack up votes in the Brownlow.
He tends to lead our F50 entries and assists, or at least be very near the top. He is also our cleanest ball user in traffic; basically, if he is held we tend to struggle.
He's arguably better than a great player.

[Mantis]

He tends to lead our F50 entries and assists, or at least be very near the top. He is also our cleanest ball user in traffic; basically, if he is held we tend to struggle.
He's arguably better than a great player.

To me a 'great' player is one who wins multiple B+F's and plays at an elite level for a number of seasons. Scott West, Chris Grant & Brad Johnson were/are great players.

Gia is a long way off this level.

[LostDoggy]

I don't think Gia is a great player. He gets his job done most the time and get his hands on the ball. But he is far from a match winner or a player who will rack up votes in the Brownlow.

How many match-winners would you expect to have in the side?

As you say he gets the job done. That's all we ask.

In getting the job done but not scoring Brownlow votes he joins Hargrave, Harbrow, Lake, Gilbee and Morris etc. All good players capable of fitting into a Premiership side but never likely to be Brownblow favourites.

[LostDoggy]

SOrry I said Brownlow. Not sure how well he does in the B&F but i don't think i've seen him in the top ranks in that either. Don't get me wrong, I think he is a very useful player for us and am glad he is in our team.

[Doc26]

In getting the job done but not scoring Brownlow votes he joins Hargrave, Harbrow, Lake, Gilbee and Morris etc. All good players capable of fitting into a Premiership side but never likely to be Brownblow favourites.

As much as I can accept Gia being a part of our best 22 I have a lot of trouble accepting him being grouped with Dale Morris and Brian Lake. These two are poles apart in their significance to our team and are both far better than simply being 'good' players. That said, I do take your point that Dale at least is unlikely to push for a Brownlow.

[Mofra]

To me a 'great' player is one who wins multiple B+F's and plays at an elite level for a number of seasons. Scott West, Chris Grant & Brad Johnson were/are great players.

Gia is a long way off this level.
Good player, great player, champion. Gia is a level below champion for mine which is how I interpreted the original post.

[Mantis]

Good player, great player, champion. Gia is a level below champion for mine which is how I interpreted the original post.

By your reasoning I would have him in the good player category.

Anyway back to the topic at hand - I caught a portion of training an hour or so back and can report that Johnson & Ward didn't train and Eagleton was still with the reserves group so I doubt there will be a change this week.

[Go_Dogs]

He tends to lead our F50 entries and assists, or at least be very near the top. He is also our cleanest ball user in traffic; basically, if he is held we tend to struggle.
He's arguably better than a great player.

Not so far this year he hasn't, not even close really - 4 I50's and a couple of score assists. Not really close to guys like Griff who has 19 I50's this year, and Cooney 18.

I do agree with you, in theory - as we know that Gia can be a very good player in those areas - just hasn't shown it yet this year.

I wouldn't call him a great player, but he's a good player.

[Cyberdoggie]

We saw last week the danger of going too top heavy in the forward line. If Johnson comes back in, another forward HAS to go out. Hill seems the most likely.

We are too big!, who would of thought it a couple of years ago.

[Hotdog60]

Not so far this year he hasn't, not even close really - 4 I50's and a couple of score assists. Not really close to guys like Griff who has 19 I50's this year, and Cooney 18.

I do agree with you, in theory - as we know that Gia can be a very good player in those areas - just hasn't shown it yet this year.

I wouldn't call him a great player, but he's a good player.

Could you rate the value of a player more on if they can be replaced in the side.

Meaning that if he was playing well his in but if not do we have someone that can fill his role.

So someone like Gia wasn't playing well could Moles, Ward, Eagleton or Everitt do just as good a job.

[LongWait]

Could you rate the value of a player more on if they can be replaced in the side.

Meaning that if he was playing well his in but if not do we have someone that can fill his role.

So someone like Gia wasn't playing well could Moles, Ward, Eagleton or Everitt do just as good a job.

I think this is a good point you raise Hotdog.

Moles, Ward and Everitt could all conceivably play the mid-sized high forward role that Gia plays. In terms of importance to the side, Gia, when on song, is more the icing on the cake rather than the game breaker for mine. He is far from irreplaceable and, on current form, is clearly in the lower half of our 22.

If we must make way for Johnson and Ward in the coming weeks, then Gia should be considered an option for demotion. My view is way off-base as far as the MC is concerned. Gia would have to do something extraordinarily bad to be dropped, for our selection policy appears to disregard recent form if you are a "senior" player.

[Before I Die]

My memory (which is not always great) of the NAB cup was that Ward struggled for form throughout it. Aren't all the calls for his reinstatement into the senior team a little premature? He is listed as still being two weeks away from full health and then he would surely need at least a week at Willi to prove he deserves selection. A lot of things can happen in three weeks.

In 5 weeks Howard comes off the long term injury list which means Moles goes back to being a rookie until at least mid season unless we have another player seriously injured. At that point the question may be, "who have we got to replace Moles?"

[Go_Dogs]

I think this is a good point you raise Hotdog.

Agreed - interesting point.

I guess at the moment, I would question exactly what is Gia's role to begin with? And at the moment, I'm honestly not sure. He seems to be playing as a high half forward. We know he's not a lead up/marking target (although can pinch hit in such a role at times - with varying success), he's not a crumber - but he is a guy we want delivering the ball into the F50 (at times).

Reason I say at times, is a fast running break by Cooney or Griffen is going to be preferred IMO, in normal play. Gia will really come into his own in matches where we need to show a bit more patience going forward - need pin point kicks to split the zone.

If his form turns around a bit, there isn't really an obvious player who could play his role. If his form doesn't turn around a bit, there may be other options that can give greater value. At the end of the day, if Gilbee, Griffen and Cooney have days like they did on Sunday, Gia getting 10 I50's isn't going to be necessary - but he needs to find ways to give value to the side when he isn't being an offensive playmaker.

[mjp]

I personally would love to see us continue to play Everitt and Hill as much as possible.

When Johnson is ready to return most people nominate Hill to miss out, but IMO Hill offers a dimension to our forward line no one else can offer. I really don't know who misses out for Johnno but I personally hope Hill can retain his spot.

For someone to be happy, someone else has to be sad.

Johnno is in. Hill isn't out. So...who is it to be then?

I dont want to leave Hill out either - but we cannot play 23. So who is it?

[bornadog]

For someone to be happy, someone else has to be sad.

Johnno is in. Hill isn't out. So...who is it to be then?

I dont want to leave Hill out either - but we cannot play 23. So who is it?

Johnno is in doubt so thats the answer I guess:p

[Go_Dogs]

Johnno is in doubt so thats the answer I guess:p

For one more week, perhaps two.


Then...someone will have to give way. Hopefully the answer can become a bit clearer over the next couple of weekends - but like mjp says, someone is going to be (very) unlucky. There are a few hard luck stories every year, and it's just the sign of a strong team and list.

[bornadog]

For one more week, perhaps two.


Then...someone will have to give way. Hopefully the answer can become a bit clearer over the next couple of weekends - but like mjp says, someone is going to be (very) unlucky. There are a few hard luck stories every year, and it's just the sign of a strong team and list.

and a great position to be in.

[chef]

For one more week, perhaps two.


Then...someone will have to give way. Hopefully the answer can become a bit clearer over the next couple of weekends - but like mjp says, someone is going to be (very) unlucky. There are a few hard luck stories every year, and it's just the sign of a strong team and list.

We could always get some injuries.

[Doc26]

Rocket's press conference today indicates that Johnno is unlikely to come up this week, still suffering effects of the virus going around the club. Josh would appear safe for another week and hopefully a few more if he puts in a good show this week.

[Go_Dogs]

and a great position to be in.

Agreed. Just about every Premiership side has one of those unlucky guys who misses out on playing in the GF. A sure sign of a good side.



We could always get some injuries.

Very true - although I'd prefer to make a tough decision rather than have our hand forced due to injury. Might make the MC's job a bit easier though ;)

[hujsh]

Tell me what it has to do with this scenario? Is Johnno stomping his feet and saying someone must be dropped for him? Is he demanding he doesn't play in the VFL?

No, I was relating it to your response, not Johnson's. Perhaps i misinterpreted your post (reading your response here it appears i did) but saying it's rubish to put the team above the individual is what I found to be crazy.



If the club feels Johnno is ready to go - then he will be picked. And its not because of his name. Its because he has been a gun player for 15 years, is still a great player and is in our best 22 every day of the week. .

Remember my initial response was to Hughy claiming that it was disrespectful for a 70% Johnson to miss out for Hill.

I've never claimed the club makes it's selections based on name (well maybe in regards to Eagle late last year but it's beside the point) but I hope they don't pick him if he's not Match fit. I don't necessarily agree he's still a great player. Last year he was very good but he does appear to be declining so we haven't seen how good he is this year yet.



The Hawks were fiercely competitive today and when the heat is on next week - I'd prefer to have one of our toughest competitors there if he's declared fit.

That's all I was arguing, that he should be match fit.