Rucks

[Rance Fan]

Can we play the 3 with Roughead up forward?
Is it more Minson v Hudson for the second ruck?
Willl Roughead be used sparingly so he doesnt get smashed and bashed as the season goes?

For me Roughead in - up forward and ruck - Just need to be cautious with him. Dont wanna run him into the ground. Hes the future!...as well as now i guess

Hudson got his nose in front of Minson for now.
Both bash and crash type ruckmen
Huddos better leadership
Minson can go forward...all be it he may not do a lot
Minson to many silly frees, even though Huddo does give a few away.
Huddo seems to have bit more poise when he has the ball

When Huddos finished Minson will continue on i reckon. Just think Huddo offers bit more at the moment. Would like to see Minson get a bit of confidence and fitness building games in the VFL first.
I do recall last year Minsons best game was against Collingwood. And was it when he was the sole ruckmen? Maybe he just needs more game time in the ruck with more responsibility.

Itll be interesting to see where it all leads. Either way the future looks good. Always got Cordy in the wings!

So how you guys see it??

[Sedat]

Personally, I think 2 ruckmen is plenty. Roughy has earned his spot and should maintain it next week. I think as the season drags on, being only a 2nd year player might take a toll on Roughy and he will eventually make way for Minson (and conversely Minson should find fitness and touch by then). But I have to say it's Roughy's position to lose at the moment - his effort first up tonight was terrific. I especially loved his 2nd and 3rd efforts, in particular that bone-crunching tackle on our forward 50 that stopped the Adelaide opponent stone dead.

Hudson's work in the clinches tonight was again exceptional. It's like having a spare contested possession midfielder in at the stoppages. He's definitely our no.1 ruckman.

[LostDoggy]

I think two of the three should play out the rest if the season rotating where necessary, Roughy was great but needs to be eased into a full time position and Huddo will need the odd rest. Lucky Will on current form, injuries will be a factor too.

To summarise, room for 3 to share two places happily but never all 3 in the one side. Will may feel hard done by but he will be around for a lot longer than the beard.

[hujsh]

Can we play the 3 with Roughead up forward?

I think we'd struggle with that


Is it more Minson v Hudson for the second ruck?

:eek: I think Hudson is still quite a margin ahead of Roughead as the number one ruck and Roughead isn't that far in front of Minson yet either

[Remi Moses]

Roughie will go well but I suspect He'll be like alot of talls will still take time to have a big impact.

[Raw Toast]

Good question but we're struggling enough for run as it is at the moment.

As Sedat said, the second position is Roughead's to lose for the moment, but you'd doubt that he'll keep it for the whole season.

Thinking ahead, Hudson has been very good so far, but you'd think he hasn't too many years left, and Minson still has some development left in him imo (he's more like the older style rucks I reckon, who took to their late 20s to fully develop). So we don't have huge depth in our rucks, but I think we're pretty well placed with Cordy (who'll probably pinch-hit as a forward), and maybe also Prato to come.

I also liked how Hall was taking the ruck contests in the forward fifty most of the time last night as well.

[Sedat]

I also liked how Hall was taking the ruck contests in the forward fifty most of the time last night as well.
Hall was also our best small crumbing forward last night as well - there is nothing the great man cannot do :D

[Mofra]

Good question but we're struggling enough for run as it is at the moment.
That's the only reason I wouldn't have 3 in the side.
We win by running sides off their feet, not by F50 conversion rates (which were outstanding last year even when we were short in the F50)

[Bumper Bulldogs]

It will be interesting to see how Will goes at Willi, Roughy might get a good lesson next week against King & Gardener. If he plays that might not hurt him as we dont want him thinking it is always going to be as easy as playing against an out of form Crows unit.

That all said I think Huddo, Will, Roughy then big Eddie are the ruck stocks with Cordy to push Grant for that spot.

The next few years are looking good from my point of view. ;)

[Rocco Jones]

All due respect Rance Fan but this thread is outdated by about 10 years.

Having two ruckmen is already a burden in the uber running modern game. A lot of fans take TOG and how hard it is to run out a game for granted. Carrying someone who spends less than 70% TOG is an enormous burden. Roughly doing the sums it would mean....

Hudson 70% TOG= virtually all in the ruck
Minson 70% TOG= 20% in ruck, 50% forward
Roughead 70% TOG= 10% in ruck, 60% forward

Eek!

3 rucks only work if at least 2 of them offer value elsewhere. Minson and Hudson are old school out and out ruckmen and Roughead is probably in between a pure and flexible type (at the moment).

Only 4 on the bench + unlimited rotations + speed of game= playing non gun immobile players at your own peril.

[azabob]

All due respect Rance Fan but this thread is outdated by about 10 years.



Hey Rocco,

Perhaps you could start a thread about the total opposite of this topic, could we use a part timer as our second ruckman?

Oh wait....

[Rocco Jones]

Hey Rocco,

Perhaps you could start a thread about the total opposite of this topic, could we use a part timer as our second ruckman?

Oh wait....

Haha. Yeah I know I am a bit obsessed with the topic and really do apologise if I was being rude. I just think playing 3 ruckmen, when only 1 offers anything resembling value outside of the ruck, is modern footy suicide. So many fans want things like this and then scratch their heads when the Pies and Lions run all over us. Hmm, perhaps we need MORE talls!

[chef]

Haha. Yeah I know I am a bit obsessed with the topic and really do apologise if I was being rude. I just think playing 3 ruckmen, when only 1 offers anything resembling value outside of the ruck, is modern footy suicide. So many fans want things like this and then scratch their heads when the Pies and Lions run all over us. Hmm, perhaps we need MORE talls!

Make sure you watch the Tassie game Rocco, 3 ruckmen(Kangaroos) V's 1 ruck and 2 part timers(Hawks). You wouldn't want Roughie or Hodge getting hurt rucking if you Hawks supporter.

Scratch that, Hawks have no ruck playing tonight.

[Rance Fan]

3 Nic Nats would be handy. He like alot of the modern rucks are every bit as agile and fast as a small player. Granted they need to be. Huddo and Minson certainly are on the slower side. But there toughness, bodywork and clearances are favourable compared to others. Working in tandem on and off the bench, with Roughhead CHF. ?
Collingwood have Jolly, Fraser and Cloke doing ruckwork
Brisbane have used Clark, Charman, Luenberger and Brennan at times
North as above
Outdated by 10 years?? Pfft

[mighty_west]

Haha. Yeah I know I am a bit obsessed with the topic and really do apologise if I was being rude. I just think playing 3 ruckmen, when only 1 offers anything resembling value outside of the ruck, is modern footy suicide. So many fans want things like this and then scratch their heads when the Pies and Lions run all over us. Hmm, perhaps we need MORE talls!

I think there is merit in what you are saying, but i think it also depends on the ruckmen we have, and can they perform on their own like a Dean Cox in the mid 00's, he could work all day but also very valuable around the ground.

I'm not sure Huddo or Minson can do that without blowing up in the final term, plus we don't really have a part timer who could try our give us an advantage in the ruck, going against the better midfielders, can really hurt with clearances, against the lower sides, you might be able to get away with it, Everitt may be able to help in a crisis, but i couldn't see him doing it for 30% of gametime on a full time basis.

I actually think the Roughead combo works really well going on Friday nights game, as long as he isn't given too much to do so early in his development, but 30% of rucktime and alot of time up forward could work wonders, he is multi talented as a ruckman, where's Minson tried hard up forward.

I don't know how many years Huddo has left, but a Minson / Roughead combo could also work, i think you can get away with having a part ruck work, as long as he can actually ruck.

[GVGjr]

I think North are proof that you could play 3 ruckman in a side and Hawthorn are proving how much of a struggle it is for them with just one genuine ruck and having to pinch hit with Jarryd Roughead.

With the 3 players we have I don't think it would work too often playing them all because Hudson doesn't offer much value as a forward and Minson isn't the answer there either. Roughead might be able to play that tall forward option changing into the ruck.

I really think as a club we under value the position and ideally we would have another guy a couple of years further advanced than Roughead on the list but the key is finding guys flexible enough to provide a decent option up forward.

[mighty_west]

I think North are proof that you could play 3 ruckman in a side and Hawthorn are proving how much of a struggle it is for them with just one genuine ruck and having to pinch hit with Jarryd Roughead.

With the 3 players we have I don't think it would work too often playing them all because Hudson doesn't offer much value as a forward and Minson isn't the answer there either. Roughead might be able to play that tall forward option changing into the ruck.

I really think as a club we under value the position and ideally we would have another guy a couple of years further advanced than Roughead on the list but the key is finding guys flexible enough to provide a decent option up forward.

Did Boumann ever pitch hit in the ruck in the Willy seconds? he started off as a forward but has been developing as a defender, certainly a very mobile tall.

[GVGjr]

Did Boumann ever pitch hit in the ruck in the Willy seconds? he started off as a forward but has been developing as a defender, certainly a very mobile tall.

Not that I can recall. Might need some more meat on his bones.

[MrMahatma]

I'd expect Roughie to play maybe 10 games this year. Want to get him to develop, but not get smashed physically.

Minson will come back - no problem. What it does mean is that:

1) if one ruck gets injured we're not terribly exposed
2) Cordy can take his time to develop
3) Roughead next year could be putting a load of pressure on Will.

But he's only played one game, solid as it was, but he doesn't have a lot of runs on the board.

[Sockeye Salmon]

3 Nic Nats would be handy. He like alot of the modern rucks are every bit as agile and fast as a small player. Granted they need to be. Huddo and Minson certainly are on the slower side. But there toughness, bodywork and clearances are favourable compared to others. Working in tandem on and off the bench, with Roughhead CHF. ?
Collingwood have Jolly, Fraser and Cloke doing ruckwork
Brisbane have used Clark, Charman, Luenberger and Brennan at times
North as above
Outdated by 10 years?? Pfft

Cloke is purely a CHF, no more of a ruck than Hall.
I can't remember Brisbane ever playing all three at once, partly because at least one of them is usually injured. Clark played as a pure forward until injuries hit all the others last year so I supporse it could have happened. Brennan is a midfielder who just happens to be taller than most.
Petrie is a KPP.

3 rucks in our side would be suicide.

[Rocco Jones]

Make sure you watch the Tassie game Rocco, 3 ruckmen(Kangaroos) V's 1 ruck and 2 part timers(Hawks). You wouldn't want Roughie or Hodge getting hurt rucking if you Hawks supporter.

Scratch that, Hawks have no ruck playing tonight.

Of course I am not saying that I prefer the Hawks structure, I think some people are really struggling to understand/read what I am actually saying.

I am not saying go in with no ruckmen or have someone like Hodge as your 2nd ruck, that is awful. I just think 2 out and out ruckmen is an enormous sacrifice. I keep on saying that and posters keep on replying to my theory citing the Hawks as a counter argument like that are my ideal, which couldn't be further from the truth.


3 Nic Nats would be handy. He like alot of the modern rucks are every bit as agile and fast as a small player. Granted they need to be. Huddo and Minson certainly are on the slower side. But there toughness, bodywork and clearances are favourable compared to others. Working in tandem on and off the bench, with Roughhead CHF. ?
Collingwood have Jolly, Fraser and Cloke doing ruckwork
Brisbane have used Clark, Charman, Luenberger and Brennan at times
North as above
Outdated by 10 years?? Pfft

Did you read what I actually posted mate? I said that you can play 3 ruckmen but at least two have to be mobile. Hudson and Minson are not modern ruckmen and playing another ruckman alongside them would be a massive liability. I really believe a lot of fans massively undervalue the value of rotations.

The difference between 'three Nic Nats' and Minson, Hudson and Roughead is so different it's absurd.

We have played two quality sides this season and killed us with their superior running depth. Playing let another ruckmen would be pure madness.
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I must also say that at the end of it all, I still preferred Minson over the 2nd part timer due to us not having a decent part time option. I just think the game is ever changing and one thing we are going to see is the death of two pure ruckmen playing in the same side. The only thing that will stop this is limiting rotations or extending the bench.

[Sedat]

Hudson and Minson are not modern ruckmen and playing another ruckman alongside them would be a massive liability. I really believe a lot of fans massively undervalue the value of rotations.
Rocco, I agree with everything you've written on this topic but I think you are neglecting one small point in relation to our ruckmen. Hudson does add another element to the team by effectively being another inside midfield rotation. Especially with Ward and Picken out, Hudson's value in this area is as vital as it has been since he came to the club. I was really worried on Friday night with the prospect of Adelaide's midfield rotations running over the top of us (and the signs looked ominous in the first 30 minutes), but I guess the value in clearly winning the contested possession and clearance battle (as we did on Friday night) certainly minimises the required running capacity by constantly moving the ball to our advantage, and thereby forcing the opposition to have to work harder to gain that lost meterage - Hudson plays as much of a role as any of our inside mids in giving us a clear advantage in this midfield energy-saving area. If you are winning the clearance and contested battle clearly, 9 times out of 10 you will provide enough opportunities for your forwards to kick a winning score.

Roughead will probably blow up as the season progresses but I like what he brought to the table by way of forward impact on Friday night. I can see him in a couple of years being quite a damaging forward mis-match when he's not rucking.

[Remi Moses]

What Sockeye said . No way in hell they'll go in with 3 Ruckman.

[MrMahatma]

Rocco, I agree with everything you've written on this topic but I think you are neglecting one small point in relation to our ruckmen. Hudson does add another element to the team by effectively being another inside midfield rotation. Especially with Ward and Picken out, Hudson's value in this area is as vital as it has been since he came to the club. I was really worried on Friday night with the prospect of Adelaide's midfield rotations running over the top of us (and the signs looked ominous in the first 30 minutes), but I guess the value in clearly winning the contested possession and clearance battle (as we did on Friday night) certainly minimises the required running capacity by constantly moving the ball to our advantage, and thereby forcing the opposition to have to work harder to gain that lost meterage - Hudson plays as much of a role as any of our inside mids in giving us a clear advantage in this midfield energy-saving area. If you are winning the clearance and contested battle clearly, 9 times out of 10 you will provide enough opportunities for your forwards to kick a winning score.

Roughead will probably blow up as the season progresses but I like what he brought to the table by way of forward impact on Friday night. I can see him in a couple of years being quite a damaging forward mis-match when he's not rucking.

I don't think your Hudson comments are really relevent. Rocco is referring to rotations. Even if Hudson plays a dual role in the one spot - inside mid and ruck - that doesn't mean much because you wouldn't have him resting as an inside mid. He and Will are either ruck or bench. Will goes forward but with little success and more due to necessity. Having a ruck who can effectively play fwd means the other rotations benefit. Playing 2pure ruckmen who are only rucking or bench means you have 2 people for 1 spot and limits rotations. Our team will be better once Roughie gets physically able to play an entire season.

[Jasper]

Having a ruck who can effectively play fwd means the other rotations benefit. Playing 2pure ruckmen who are only rucking or bench means you have 2 people for 1 spot and limits rotations. Our team will be better once Roughie gets physically able to play an entire season.

This is correct in my view.

Yet next year its likely to be irrelevant if the AFL brings in substitutes (highly likely). We'll just play Huddo for a half (with a little support from Everitt), and Minson next half as Huddo is subbed.

This suspected rule change will probably save pure ruckman.

The year after you would think Huddo will retire, allowing Minson, and the more flexible Roughead and hopefully Cordy to share ruck dutes, which in turn preserves a substitute.

[GVGjr]

In a couple of years time we might have the sort of players that would allow for 3 ruckman as both Cordy and Roughead have also shown some ability up forward.
Now the development of players like Grant and Jones might actually stop that from eventuating but in the future it's unlikely that teams could accommodate two 'one dimensional' ruckman that can't push forward and add some value.

[Sedat]

I don't think your Hudson comments are really relevent. Rocco is referring to rotations. Even if Hudson plays a dual role in the one spot - inside mid and ruck - that doesn't mean much because you wouldn't have him resting as an inside mid. He and Will are either ruck or bench. Will goes forward but with little success and more due to necessity. Having a ruck who can effectively play fwd means the other rotations benefit. Playing 2 pure ruckmen who are only rucking or bench means you have 2 people for 1 spot and limits rotations. Our team will be better once Roughie gets physically able to play an entire season.
If you cast your mind back to 2006/7, we were one of the worst teams in the competition at the clearances and contested possessions, and as a result we conceded far too many inside 50's, forcing our defence into defending 65+ inside 50's over the course of a match (much like last week's game). I think you're underestimating the importance that the clearances and contested possession battle has in helping conserve running energy and also in forcing the opposition midfield to use up more energy than they otherwise would have liked. I know that Hudson doesn't literally add to the midfield rotations, but he gives his midfield far more effective and meaningful support with his 70-80% TOG than most other ruckmen in the competition.

[Hotdog60]

This is correct in my view.

Yet next year its likely to be irrelevant if the AFL brings in substitutes (highly likely). We'll just play Huddo for a half (with a little support from Everitt), and Minson next half as Huddo is subbed.

This suspected rule change will probably save pure ruckman.

The year after you would think Huddo will retire, allowing Minson, and the more flexible Roughead and hopefully Cordy to share ruck dutes, which in turn preserves a substitute.

If subs come into the game it will only be if a player gets injured and can no longer take part, so the rotation of the rucks won't happen with the subs unless they are injured or fake the injury.

[Jasper]

If subs come into the game it will only be if a player gets injured and can no longer take part, so the rotation of the rucks won't happen with the subs unless they are injured or fake the injury.

And that is why they will adopt non-injury related subs, to avoid precisely this unnecessarily controversial situation - actually, it will be just like the NAB cup.

Agree on the comments on Hudson. Can't help recalling Huddo's 2nd, 3rd and 4th efforts in our final against Geelong last year, almost singlehandedlly turned the game in our favour.

I can also recall the normally accurate Minson stubbing his toe and missing an easy shot in the same game. Suffice to say, I am not a big fan of Will 'concrete hands and brain' Minson. If it didn't put our list at risk, I would love to see him traded - but we can't with Huddo nearing the end, and JR and Ayce not ready.

I think Minson doing a 'Jim Stynes' in a crucial moment of a final is one of the most likely to occur mental moments that could cost us a final.