Forward Line in the 2010 Finals

[boydogs]

This year we have confronted some pretty heavy issues in our forward line.

Barry Hall has become an option, and the team has struggled to adjust to having him in the side, particularly when he is not dominating. Injuries have struck, with Aker missing at one stage and Johnson not reaching full flight

Form has been an issue with Hill in and out of the side. Everitt, Lake, Roughead and Addison have spent time down there, whilst Gia, Hahn and Murphy have been tried in other areas of the ground

Our forward line has at times looked slow, lacking crumbing forwards and with several older players down there. Stack and Grant are currently in the side, and do appear to be going some way to addressing these issues

With all of that in mind, what do you see as our best forward line setup for the 2010 finals series? Please post your lineup and explain why you would go that way

This is mine:

HF: Higgins Grant Johnson
F: Aker Hall Harbrow

I anticipate that many of you will disagree with my selections, but hopefully this can lead to some good discussion. Here are my reasons:

Higgins to play the Gia forward line assist role. Gia & Higgins up forward was overkill, and Gia has shown more in the midfield whilst Higgins is a better mark and set shot. I think our idea of a forward has been twisted a little by the makeshift options we have used in the last decade, Gia is a quality ball user but will be more value getting involved in the play more frequently

Grant in 3 games now has shown good hands and speed, which are required in the CHF role. Importantly he has not drifted in and out of the play, presenting as an option up the ground and taking plenty of marks. His field kicking has been good in delivering the ball inside 50. He may not stay in the side all year, but if he is going strong at the end of the Home & Away season then he could well perform the Murphy role for us in finals. Murphy has been well down in form at CHF and was really a makeshift forward anyway, he could definitely contribute from defense

Johnson will need to improve his fitness and get himself injury free, but so long as he does you would still have him in the best 22. Superstar over many years that should benefit from being in a flanker role away from the best defenders

Aker - see Johnson

Hall - just about the least debatable one. Has made a fantastic contribution so far and should spearhead the forward line in the finals for us if he is not injured or suspended

Harbrow - I'm convinced that between Gilbee, Hargrave, Everitt and even Lake as 3rd man up that we could still provide sufficient run out of defense with Harbrow up forward. He continues to get beaten by his opponent as well, which is the number one focus for any defender. I think we are attributing too much of Harbrow's improvement to the role change, and may surprise ourselves to see what damage he could now do up forward. Huge need for him up forward with only the ageing Aker and up and coming Stack as possible crumbing options to read the ball off hands as well as provide pace for defensive pressure, which his new found defensive skills would help him with

Other options:
Gia - midfield
Murphy - defense
Hahn - off the bench or omitted
Stack - still developing
Hill - off the bench, on the wing or omitted
Everitt - off the bench, on the wing, in defense, part time ruckman, or omitted
Addison - tagger, in defense, or omitted
Minson - may spend some time in the forward line in 2nd ruck role
Roughead - see Minson
Lake - 3rd man up in defense

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this :)

[LostDoggy]

I think its pretty good except I'm still not sold on Harbrow for a FP, I know he started in the foward line but hes been so good for us down back.

You did make some good points though and I think it should be atleast tried one game.

Eventually I would hope for Stack to improve and take over that crumbing FP role and Harbrow to go back to defense.

[Dazza]

The changing of the guard has started.

[boydogs]

The changing of the guard has started.

Yeah I think it has

Hall = Grant
Johnson = Jones
Aker = Stack
Hudson = Roughead
Eagleton = Wood

Great that three of those have now played multiple games for us and not looked out of place

[LostDoggy]

Listening to Higgins after the game on ABC yesterday he made the interesting observation that the problem earlier in the season was in the timing of the leads by the forward. They were a little early or late. The ball carrier looks up but the forward is not quite where he should be yet for the perfect pass.

Leg speed is important, especially for mids and defenders to get back after a forward turnover. Harbrow for that reason has to stay in defence. Do we have enough leg speed in the forward line. We seem to have many who are taller for marking but not so good at bouncing off the ground and wriggling through the eye of a needle in packs. The problem seems to be when we don't win the contested ball. Our taller forwards like Hahn, Stack, Hill just have to do a lot more crumbing work if we are to be successful. I am slowly coming to the view that forward line players who lack leg speed ultimately become a liability against top teams. Hahn or Hill....one has to go for team balance.

[AndrewP6]

Listening to Higgins after the game on ABC yesterday he made the interesting observation that the problem earlier in the season was in the timing of the leads by the forward. They were a little early or late. The ball carrier looks up but the forward is not quite where he should be yet for the perfect pass.

Leg speed is important, especially for mids and defenders to get back after a forward turnover. Harbrow for that reason has to stay in defence. Do we have enough leg speed in the forward line. We seem to have many who are taller for marking but not so good at bouncing off the ground and wriggling through the eye of a needle in packs. The problem seems to be when we don't win the contested ball. Our taller forwards like Hahn, Stack, Hill just have to do a lot more crumbing work if we are to be successful. I am slowly coming to the view that forward line players who lack leg speed ultimately become a liability against top teams. Hahn or Hill....one has to go for team balance.

Agree with most of what you're saying, not sure I'd describe Hill or Stack as tall...186 and 184cm according to WB site...

[azabob]

Agree with most of what you're saying, not sure I'd describe Hill or Stack as tall...186 and 184cm according to WB site...

In today's game not sure height measurement is relevant.

Hill plays more tall than small, so does Johnson and he is listed at 182cm

Stack plays small.

Hahn plays tall at 188cm yet Grant is 192cm but plays like a small forward.

[LostDoggy]

Leg speed is all important. So is being able to work close to the ground, off the pack and in traffic. We don't seem to have small crumbing speedsters like Eddie Betts, for example. Do we need one? Carlton have got three. Will that be a strength or a weakness for them? My comment on 'tall' was relative to the size and speed of small forwards in other sides. It seems to me that when other sides bottle us up, we have trouble getting clear through the midfield and /or in the forward line. The question really is whether you would swap a Hahn or a Hill for a Rioli, if you could. I would like to see us kick more snap, crumbing goals and would like more speed to cut angles to get the ball back when we haven't got it.

[LostDoggy]

Murph and Harbrow (and Everitt and Lake) should be played as swingmen anyway, able to go up or drop back as the opponent and circumstances dictate. As Williams and Hall come good and we settle into a more 'traditional' structure, this would continue to give a dynamism to our line-up that can be difficult to combat.

[Ozza]

Will be interesting to see how they use Murphy once he is over the knee injury.

Geez he looked good across half back early in the game.

And Grant playing as a lead up forward - time will tell if he can maintain this - but he's got some sticky hands and is playing well - I must say I was one who doubted whether he'd ever get to this stage, but he'll be a player.

[Dazza]

Yeah I'd like to give Murphy a run in the backline when he gets back and Grant as the hit up forward... He had 11 marks for the game and Murph had 6 from about 2 quarters.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Injury's aside I would have my forward set up as followed

F. Aker, Hall, Gia
HF. Johnson, Murphy, Higgins

I would then look to rotate the likes of Griff, Coons, Eagle with Gia, Higgins & Johnson. I would then like to have Minson swap with Hall if needed. The only thing I see as an issue is we have all the skill and class to kick winning scores but lack that defensive forward like a Rioli, Davis, Betts or Davey.

One thing is but the time the Finals hit we will see form etc play a big role in what Rocket and the MC do. I see the key as who's on the bench as it will just come down who has the better playing list between 19th & 22nd man

[Jasper]

This is mine:

HF: Higgins Grant Johnson
F: Aker Hall Harbrow
:)

I agree mostly about your views on speeding up the forward line, but also agree with views that we can't sacrifice speed in the backline which is important in manning up and zone breaking. Hence, Akermanis who has lost a little kicking power and accuracy could be played in the back pocket where he played successfully in stages at Brisbane, releasing Harbrow forward

Murphy's role as a 70m hit up forward is key (when he's fit), and he should be able to work well in this role. He shouldn't play deep as his goal kicking (both set shot and on the run is not strong), Grant can rotate into this role when Murphy goes to the bench or backline (which may happen more often).

I would play Harbrow further up the ground at HFF to utilise his pace and kicking power. He can also run in to swoop on Hall's crumbs at HFF. Higgins and Gia's good field kicking, smarts and Higgins' overhead ability can be utilised best on the flank

Johnson's field kicking has been poor, this becomes less of an issue deep. Hopefully he gets fit, as when fit his overhead marking in the forward pocket leading to the pocket and flanks as an alternate to Hall could be utilised. Grant could rotate between HFF and FP, his speed and forward pressure could compensate for our lack of genuine crumbers.

I too believe, Hahn is too slow. Not a big fan of Hill's ground contested ball either. Wouldn't rule Hall out moving up higher if he is struggling to get into the game, either.


HF: Harbrow/Aker Murphy Gia/Higgins
FF Johnson Hall Grant

[Mofra]

It is hard to pin down the forward line because we have so many rotations through there.

Hall is an obvious one, ditto Hahn and Grant has not just held his spot but made a claim to stay there for the rest of the season if his body holds up.

I'd expect Murphy & Johnno to spend most of their time there when fit, whilst at times Hill, Gia, Stack and Higgins will rotate through the last spot.

I like Harbrow in defence - his drive & creativity are supurb and the way he sets up play is invaluable for us back there.

[stefoid]

Hahn plays tall at 188cm yet Grant is 192cm but plays like a small forward.

Albeit a small forward who is very good overhead.

I have high hopes for Grant - he clearly has the talent, its just all up to him - unlike some other stugglers who will never have the ability that he has.

[Mofra]

Albeit a small forward who is very good overhead.

I have high hopes for Grant - he clearly has the talent, its just all up to him - unlike some other stugglers who will never have the ability that he has.
His defensive efforts have been top notch this year, and his workrate (major criticism in years past) has improved out of sight.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

It'd be a big ask for Grant to play out an entire season, I have my doubts he'll still be able to play this well by Round 20-22. Otherwise - he'd certainly be in our forward structure for the finals based on his pressure and work rate. I hope we see one of Grant/Stack playing by then - it'd give us a different look to what we've had in recent seasons at crunch time.

[Desipura]

It'd be a big ask for Grant to play out an entire season, I have my doubts he'll still be able to play this well by Round 20-22. Otherwise - he'd certainly be in our forward structure for the finals based on his pressure and work rate. I hope we see one of Grant/Stack playing by then - it'd give us a different look to what we've had in recent seasons at crunch time.
Im more confident of Grant being there at the business end of the season than I am of Stack.

[LostDoggy]

It'd be a big ask for Grant to play out an entire season, I have my doubts he'll still be able to play this well by Round 20-22. Otherwise - he'd certainly be in our forward structure for the finals based on his pressure and work rate. I hope we see one of Grant/Stack playing by then - it'd give us a different look to what we've had in recent seasons at crunch time.

Theres something intangible about injecting young blood into a team, beyond what is actually gained on game day..just a spark and a different kind of energy. Collingwood is a great example of this. Could Grant for example be rested for stretches here and there? I would love to go into the finals with one of Grant/Stack up and about.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Theres something intangible about injecting young blood into a team, beyond what is actually gained on game day..just a spark and a different kind of energy. Collingwood is a great example of this. Could Grant for example be rested for stretches here and there? I would love to go into the finals with one of Grant/Stack up and about.

He could, but I doubt he would be. Clubs only usually rest the older types to ensure they're firing by Finals.

I suppose it depends on what the match committee see as their best forward structure. At this stage, Grant is probably in it ... but when you have to factor in Picken, Ward, Johnson and Murphy returning then it'll test their trust in a player like Grant (or Stack). From last year's PF, Welsh/Callan will miss and Hall/Williams are certain inclusions. Who makes way for Grant out of the rest, not withstanding competition coming from Everitt and especially Reid.

Tough decisions will certainly have to be made. The key for Grant is to be playing good footy at the right time. He's proven to the committee he has a lot to offer us on the defensive side, and he's also capable of leading high up the ground to provide an option. People should expect his form will taper at some point between now and Round 22. If he can come back into the senior side late in the year and perform this well (or hopefully better), he'll make it hard for us not to pick him.

Fully fit, we have around 25-26 guys worthy of a spot in our 22 for Finals. Not sure what approach we'll take as I am sure the committee will be aware of our lack of pace/defensive pressure up forward. I do hope we find a spot for one of Grant/Stack IF they are in this kind of form, though. I'd hate to see us revert back to our old structure/old heads and then be pumped in the first Final because we have a virtual trampoline across the half forward line.

[Mofra]

He could, but I doubt he would be. Clubs only usually rest the older types to ensure they're firing by Finals.
Dustin Martin was rested for a week with "general soreness". Pods is older but has also been rested. Collingwood are flying and they are rotating players through the side with some having shorter game time at VFL level to freshen them up.

I think we will see a growing trend in players being rested as time goes by, and I wouldn't be surprised if some teams rested players this year in the lead up to finals.

[Mantis]

Dustin Martin was rested for a week with "general soreness". Pods is older but has also been rested. Collingwood are flying and they are rotating players through the side with some having shorter game time at VFL level to freshen them up.

I think we will see a growing trend in players being rested as time goes by, and I wouldn't be surprised if some teams rested players this year in the lead up to finals.

Yeah I think we will be in the same boat.

As soon as we get back our full quota of players, barring too many injuries and providing we are in position to (ensured of a high ladder finish) I can see us rotating the likes of Hall, Hahn, Higgins, Aker & Hudson (possibly a few more) out of the team to ensure that we are cherry ripe come finals time.

[Mofra]

As soon as we get back our full quota of players, barring too many injuries and providing we are in position to (ensured of a high ladder finish) I can see us rotating the likes of Hall, Hahn, Higgins, Aker & Hudson (possibly a few more) out of the team to ensure that we are cherry ripe come finals time.
With Stack, Grant & Roughead pushing for gametime already (and Wood, Ried and Tiller probably doing so later in the season, Jones and maybe even Boumann might sneak a debut) we should be well placed to rest players too.