Who's done the better recruiting, Dogs or Pies?

[Dry Rot]

Reading less than stellar reports of the Dogs players playing for the Bees, it seems that there's no much on offer there aside from Grant if we have further injuries.

In contrast, the Pies seem to have a really good crop of young players who they can call upon to cover injuries, and can even afford the luxury of leaving Wakelin in the 2s for most of the time.

Given the Pies have not had the draft picks we've had, who's done the better recruiting?

[LostDoggy]

DR. Pies players are talked up like no other club. The media will tell you (to sell papers) and their supporters believe they have recruited better but I doubt it.

I recall a Sun head line of the 80's involving our former player who went to the Pies(possibly Jim McAllister), anyway he wasn't very good for us but the back page headline said "PIES STAR OUT"
Duds at other clubs, Stars at the Pies.

[Dry Rot]

Beyond the hype, you disagree that they have a really good crop of young 'uns who (so far) have stepped up to the plate when required?

[southerncross]

I think we have recruited better but the Pies are getting more out of the players they have recruited if you know what I mean. Thomas was a very good selection as will Brown and Reid will be from their last draft effort.

They are just getting a lot more from the likes of Toovey and Cox than we have been getting from our later selections Harbrow aside.

Malthouse has done a super effort getting this team so competive against all the sides that we struggle with but I'm not sure it is just the recruting that has given him the edge.

[mjp]

I think we have recruited better but the Pies are getting more out of the players they have recruited if you know what I mean. Thomas was a very good selection as will Brown and Reid will be from their last draft effort.

They are just getting a lot more from the likes of Toovey and Cox than we have been getting from our later selections Harbrow aside.


Cox did a pre-season at our club before he was taken by the Pies. To say that this one upsets me - particularly having coached the kid - is an understatement of the highest order.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Cox did a pre-season at our club before he was taken by the Pies. To say that this one upsets me - particularly having coached the kid - is an understatement of the highest order.

How early did he go?

[Dry Rot]

What set me thinking about this is that Pies covered missing half their defenders, but if we lost say Harris, Hargrave and Morris we'd be stuffed IMO.

[mjp]

How early did he go?

Rookie draft. Not early at all - and a full season (when he basically didn't get a kick at South) after he completed a six week stint with us.

[mjp]

What set me thinking about this is that Pies covered missing half their defenders, but if we lost say Harris, Hargrave and Morris we'd be stuffed IMO.

Stuffed is probably unfair - and if you asked a Collingwood supporter a couple of months back how they would have coped in their present situation, I think the answer would have been short and started with the letter 'F'...then again, most things Collingwood fans say start with the letter 'F' according to young Farren.

Wight would come in for Harris, Everitt would cover the Hargrave role, Addison would be swung across to cover for Morris...the issue with this last one is that Morris is pretty tall and able to play small/tall.

I dont think things are quite as dire as you make out. When we draft Cal Ward next year he will happily slot in across half-back. :)

[Dry Rot]

When we draft Cal Ward next year he will happily slot in across half-back. :)

Who's he?

[dog town]

Difficult to say. Malthouse plays the most structured and disciplined game of just about any team so it is easy to bring in kids and have them play a role as they can be a bit protected by how well drilled the rest of the side is. You look at the kids who were playing back in 2002/2003 when the pies last made the top 4 and very few of them have kicked on and become elite players. Most remain role players and solid foot soldiers. They pick players mainly for immediate impact and even as they mature they do not really turn into elite players.Whether thats because the way the pies play doesn't allow for too many players to really dominate I am not sure but very few of them really kick on. Once saw a Malthouse quote basically saying that it is pointless having a kid sitting their on your list for two years eating bread rolls. If you dont show something fairly early under Malthouse you would be very nervous.

[mjp]

Who's he?

Bottom-age kid in the Vic Metro team.

[southerncross]

Bottom-age kid in the Vic Metro team.

From the Western Jets and about 184cm tall but light on. Could be a Clayton pick if he keeps the weight off :)

[mjp]

From the Western Jets and about 184cm tall but light on. Could be a Clayton pick if he keeps the weight off :)

Light on? No offense SC, but that is crap. He is up over 73kgs, which aint too bad at 17. How much do you want him to weigh at his age/height?

[southerncross]

Light on? No offense SC, but that is crap. He is up over 73kgs, which aint too bad at 17. How much do you want him to weigh at his age/height?

It was meant more in jest regarding the perception that Clayton mainly drafts the underdeveloped youngsters. 73kg and 184cm is a good height to weight ratio for a bottom ager.

[bornadog]

One thing Collingwood have done this year is bring in a lot of first gamers. I am pretty sure the players they have brought in weren't exacty playing for Willy and being BOG every week. We should be doing the same with our kids, especially whats left of the uninjured talls. I would bring in Everitt, Hill, Stack, Tiller (if he is ok with injury), etc. Not all at once, I mean give them a few games here and there when we have injuries or outs.

Players that have been around for awhile and have had their chance like Power, Faulmner, Robbins should spend some time at the BEES and see if they can capture any form.

We seem to have so called "Project Players", that we nurture at Werribee, and wait for them to grow up, put on Kgs, and develop but I don't think it works because we don't have control of Werribee. If the reserves comp was still in then this strategy could work.

We have developed some talls for the backline but nothing for the forward line.

[GVGjr]

One thing Collingwood have done this year is bring in a lot of first gamers. I am pretty sure the players they have brought in weren't exacty playing for Willy and being BOG every week. We should be doing the same with our kids, especially whats left of the uninjured talls. I would bring in Everitt, Hill, Stack, Tiller (if he is ok with injury), etc. Not all at once, I mean give them a few games here and there when we have injuries or outs.

Players that have been around for awhile and have had their chance like Power, Faulmner, Robbins should spend some time at the BEES and see if they can capture any form.

We seem to have so called "Project Players", that we nurture at Werribee, and wait for them to grow up, put on Kgs, and develop but I don't think it works because we don't have control of Werribee. If the reserves comp was still in then this strategy could work.

We have developed some talls for the backline but nothing for the forward line.

It's been a terrific effort by the Pies. I don't rate their list that highly but they have performed as a team much like the Crows do. The successful introduction of so many youngsters will really set them up for the future.

Regarding the project players I think we have focused a little too much in that area and we just need to balance things a bit better. The defence is taking shape and I'm very confident that Williams and Everitt will become good players for us and even Cam Wight should be more than serviceable. As you say the forward line isn't looking as promising but we have drafted Walsh, Minson, Skipper and Tiller and none of them have made the mark outside of Minson as a ruckman.
I haven't written off McDougall as yet because we imo we were never going to see the best of him in 2007.

A couple of good draft picks again this year really top off our list. A developing ruckman and a forward should be on the shopping list but I'm sure we will again look at some skilfull speedsters.

[alwaysadog]

It's been a terrific effort by the Pies. I don't rate their list that highly but they have performed as a team much like the Crows do. The successful introduction of so many youngsters will really set them up for the future.

Regarding the project players I think we have focused a little too much in that area and we just need to balance things a bit better. The defence is taking shape and I'm very confident that Williams and Everitt will become good players for us and even Cam Wight should be more than serviceable. As you say the forward line isn't looking as promising but we have drafted Walsh, Minson, Skipper and Tiller and none of them have made the mark outside of Minson as a ruckman.
I haven't written off McDougall as yet because we imo we were never going to see the best of him in 2007.

A couple of good draft picks again this year really top off our list. A developing ruckman and a forward should be on the shopping list but I'm sure we will again look at some skilfull speedsters.

I agree with most of what you are saying GVG, I would add that with the Pies it's necessary to see them across a season. They have so often looked white hot for a while and then cooled dramatically.

Equally they seem to produce these champion kids who 3 years on go no where. I don't think that this pattern is necessarily about to repeat itself, but I doubt they have suddenly unearthed a bunch of champions overnight.

IMHO recruiting is a gradual building process, from the last two drafts for us Higgins and Addison are commanding regular spots and from the most recent draft Harbrow and Lynch are exciting additons to the side. Going further back Williams has finally got his body healthy and Wight a relatively low pick did duty for half a season at CHB, while our first pick from the recent draft is doing OK and expected to debut in the near future.

What is evident is two different approaches. Malthouse is looking for short term gain, Eade is looking to develop the side longer term. I think we haven't jelled yet but I think Eade is looking to have us firing towards season's end.

[W W Biscuit]

A couple of years ago, when the Doggies cleaned up Collingwood in Round 1, I was happily chirping away to a Pie friend as we walked away from the G. Some of our youngsters played very well that day - Gilbee, Cross and Cooney I recall in particular. My friend was in a miserable mood. Whilst being impressed with our young fleet, he lamented that it wasn't going to get any better for Collingwood. They simply had no young players on the rise - "apart from Dane Swan, who looks alright." I got out the Footy record to look at the Collingwood list. Being totally impartial, I had to agree. :D Honestly, it didn't look that good for the Maggies, whilst the Dogs seemed to have a swag of young talent by comparison.

The point of this little anecdote is this, Grasshopper. More than ever, footy is a fickle business. Wasn't it just a few weeks ago that many were raving about Brisbane's young list? Hmmm. I'd agree that, at the moment, Collingwood look to have recruited very well. That's a snapshot after Round 13. However, over the last five years, I believe that we have recruited just as well, if not more effectively. This time next year, when Everitt is tearing opponents a new one, Lynch and Harbrow are causing havoc and Williams turns about to be the Dreamteam bargain of the century, then the very idea of our inferior recruiting might be scoffed at. That scenario is speculative, but it is just as likely as Ben Reid, Martin Clarke and Tyson Goldsack doing the same thing for Collingwood. Seriously, these guys have played something like three senior games between them. So Clarke debuts well and Ben Reid plays a good game for Williamstown? Using that as a guide, Carlton's Andrew Walker should have won a Brownlow by now. Hell, John Georgiadis would have lined up on the half forward line of our team of the century.

Maybe I'm getting old, but I am becoming more wary of hype. And Collingwood is Hype Incorporated.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I dont think things are quite as dire as you make out. When we draft Cal Ward next year he will happily slot in across half-back. :)

I thought Ward was a big secret?

[GVGjr]

I thought Ward was a big secret?

The coach mentioned him in the TAC/VFL record last week.

A question for mjp. The Jets played the Knights in the first round of the season, and had a close win, and I was wondering what he thought of the more highly regarded Knights players?

[Raw Toast]

Cox did a pre-season at our club before he was taken by the Pies. To say that this one upsets me - particularly having coached the kid - is an understatement of the highest order.

I think this is an example of how our inability to fund many rookies bit us. Surely if we picked up four or so rookies last year he would've been one of them.

[Bulldog Revolution]

I think this is an example of how our inability to fund many rookies bit us. Surely if we picked up four or so rookies last year he would've been one of them.

agreed, we've always managed without it, but its much nicer to have the ability to select harbrow, hughes, pask, mwest - gives the list so much more flexibility

[mjp]

The coach mentioned him in the TAC/VFL record last week.

A question for mjp. The Jets played the Knights in the first round of the season, and had a close win, and I was wondering what he thought of the more highly regarded Knights players?

Firstly Sockeye, the secret is still the secret. Hard not to get excited about the kid though. Can't wait to see him play against WA this weekend.

Knights certainly have some talent. Cotchin didn't play that day, and I guess he is the one getting hyped at the moment. I have seen him a couple of times, and he is certainly the most promising midfield prospect I have seen in the TAC Cup since Dale Thomas a couple of years back...I am sorry, but I was never a huge fan of Marc Murphy during his Oakleigh days.

Kreuzer did play that day, and was reasonable - not as good as I have seen him play in the past, but marked the ball well. Was beaten in the hit-outs by Sullivan - and this actually cost Northern dearly in the last quarter - but was too good for him around the ground. I honestly think he will play AFL footy round 1 2008, and stay there for 10 years - how good he will be, I have no idea, but if there are any certainties in the draft, surely he is it.

Vespremi played - I have seen him play better in the past. His work-rate and attack on the ball are both superb. Good player. Grimes missed I think, or I just didn't notice him. To me he is more of a grafter - just named Vic Metro captain though, so what do I know.

The most impressive kid was Bongetti. Absolutely towelled us up, we couldn't stop him. Lucky for me, he couldn't kick straight (2 goals 6 or something) and we were able to get away with the win. He has missed the VM squad - and I am sure his injury didn't help him here - but he is knocked for being too slow/small (about 190cm or so). All I know is he is leading the goalkicking despite missing more than a month of the season, and seems to be a pretty good player to me.

[GVGjr]

mjp, did you happen to see Sanfillipo and Grimes for Northern at all?

[mjp]

Um - Yep. Saw Grimes and mentioned him in my post. Hardworking midfield player, who I am not sure is all that special to be honest.

Apparently Sanfillipo played, but I honestly didn't notice him.