Where's The Hunger?

[LostDoggy]

I know that we're missing personnel, that some veterans are looking slower than ever, we're getting used to having a big presence up forward, and we're top heavy for the first time in 20 years, but every list has deficiencies.

It seems to me that the real problem is between the ears.

We seem to be playing with fear this year, even more so than usual. We know that we don't handle pressure well, are far more comfortable being the underdog etc. etc. etc. The few times we've been challenged this year, we've looked timid, hesitant and unwilling to take the burden of being the hunted.

Being outplayed by your opponent is one thing, being overrun by a hungrier side who had men free everywhere because our players were more busy shirking responsibility for those who weren't their direct opponent rather than covering for each other smacks of a certain level of mental sloppiness. Letting an opponent get 3 goals in front before finding any urgency at all also suggests a lack of confidence to play as a front runner. It has nothing to do with skill -- Essendon has a far more limited list than us, and our most consistent players this year are arguably our most 'limited' players skill wise (Picken, Hudson).

The NAB cup win seems like a double-edged sword now -- we seem to have gone into our shells with the burden of expectation, we seem to be hoping to just turn up and win, and in those games when we find that it isn't going to be that easy, we revert to mentally lazy/easy options instead of really taking the game on. All our turnovers seem to be born from that mentality of just wanting to get rid of the ball as quickly as possible rather than having the confidence to beat your opponent.

This is not me having a go at all, I still think that we're too good a side to not eventually turn it on during the season, and better the second half than the first. It's just that we are a much, much better side than we have been showing all year, but too much have been left to too few.

Thoughts?

[chef]

It seems like we are going through the motions and waiting for September to come.

[Scorlibo]

The players need to be shown the Prelim. tape from last year.

[LostDoggy]

It seems to me that the real problem is between the ears.

The NAB cup win seems like a double-edged sword now -- we seem to have gone into our shells with the burden of expectation, we seem to be hoping to just turn up and win, and in those games when we find that it isn't going to be that easy, we revert to mentally lazy/easy options instead of really taking the game on. All our turnovers seem to be born from that mentality of just wanting to get rid of the ball as quickly as possible rather than having the confidence to beat your opponent.

It's just that we are a much, much better side than we have been showing all year, but too much have been left to too few.

Thoughts?

Lantern, I think you have nailed it - don't they say that football is played 90% above the neck, and we seem to be proving that this year. It seems that the NAB win put an incredible expectation on the team (and us too!), and we just don't seem to be coping with that pressure. C'mon dogs, we can't let this season go down the drain:mad:

[choconmientay]

The players seems to have a hunger for fast food only. They are not working hard enough (except for Hudson, Picken) to earn a fine meal at a 5 stars restaurant :( I think we are really bad as all the stats ( tackling, stoppages, turn-over)

I don't mind if we losing a game by giving our all but atm it doesn't look anywhere near it.

Also, the players seems to go at each other a lots ... what is happening there ... any inside information?

[Lurgan]

Your analysis is right on. It's a question now of character and coaching as to whether this is all a prelude to something greater or whether we just can't go any higher. If we can't it's just because of 'what's between the ears'. We've all seen the talent, execution of skills and strategies. The physical ingredients are there, but we're waiting to see the ability to rise higher, believe in ourselves and be comfortable as the hunted.

[Dry Rot]

This thread focuses on the mental aspect and makes many good points.

But on the physical side, the team just looks old, slow and very tired and I really wonder how many players are carrying injuries which is affecting their form.

I don't have any facts to back this up, but I seriously wonder if we have a lot of problems on the physical side which we don't know about.

[ReLoad]

Ok lets look a little further into the future.....

What does our list look like next year? or the year after? Doesnt bode well IMHO.

Retired or gone at the end of 2010 (at a minimum): Johnson, Aker, Eagleton
Close to being gone: Hahn plus some list cloggers.

So where do we find these replacements? the time is now to blood some or the gap will be too large come the cull time.

The questoin is at finals time, people like Aker are proven finals winners, you can bank on that.

But realistically right now, are we a show for serious september action? we have a LONG way to go.

[LostDoggy]

This thread focuses on the mental aspect and makes many good points.

But on the physical side, the team just looks old, slow and very tired and I really wonder how many players are carrying injuries which is affecting their form.

I don't have any facts to back this up, but I seriously wonder if we have a lot of problems on the physical side which we don't know about.

It's very worrying, considering a lot of the other top teams. Have been able to rotate & introduce new talent, while we have stuck with the same players over a long period of time.

[GVGjr]

The NAB cup win seems like a double-edged sword now -- we seem to have gone into our shells with the burden of expectation, we seem to be hoping to just turn up and win, and in those games when we find that it isn't going to be that easy, we revert to mentally lazy/easy options instead of really taking the game on. All our turnovers seem to be born from that mentality of just wanting to get rid of the ball as quickly as possible rather than having the confidence to beat your opponent.



It shouldn't be. To take the big step in September you need to prove you can win the big games and I think the NAB cup win would have removed any doubt that this side is capable of going past the preliminary finals of the last two seasons.

I agree that some of our players have gone into their shells and that we have a distinct lack of players wanting to take the game on when it counts but I think it more to do with the disciplined way we approach our football and in some instances a lack of skills in pressured situations. We have been like that for a few seasons and I don't think it's linked to the NAB cup win.

Great thread by the way.

[bornadog]

It's very worrying, considering a lot of the other top teams. Have been able to rotate & introduce new talent, while we have stuck with the same players over a long period of time.

Can't agree with that, what about:

Hill, Stack, Grant, Roughead, Ward, Reid, Picken, Moles, Wood, Everitt, all introduced in the last couple of years.

[LostDoggy]

Ok lets look a little further into the future.....

What does our list look like next year? or the year after? Doesnt bode well IMHO.

Retired or gone at the end of 2010 (at a minimum): Johnson, Aker, Eagleton
Close to being gone: Hahn plus some list cloggers.

So where do we find these replacements? the time is now to blood some or the gap will be too large come the cull time.

The questoin is at finals time, people like Aker are proven finals winners, you can bank on that.

But realistically right now, are we a show for serious september action? we have a LONG way to go.

The prevailing wisdom for sustained performance is staged obsolescence, ie. staggering the retirements of your older performers and bringing their replacements in gradually so as to not lose a chunk of experience all at once.

It is difficult to do with a team like the Dogs because we have been starved of success for so long that the temptation is:

a. to keep proven performers on the list for just that bit longer as their experience hypothetically allows for a better chance at the flag, and
b. to reward your most loyal and long-lasting performers with the ultimate success.

This is all well and good, but it can come at the expense of your succession planning, ESPECIALLY if the win takes one or two years longer than planned. Worst case is if you don't win AND you don't refresh the list. This is what has essentially happened to Adelaide this year. Their window was 2006-2008 and they missed the boat, and kept veterans on the list to have another shot last year and this year, and so have a very old backline that has just gone on probably one year too long. They are bringing younger players in now, but there's going to be some pain before they perform consistently.

The ideal situation for the Dogs would have been winning last year, which would have allowed Eagle and Aker to retire successfully and not push on too long. Johnno and Hahn could have played this year out while mentoring Eagle and Aker's successors (probably a combination of Stack/Reid/Wood/Grant) before then retiring themselves. Prolonging the premiership tilt for that one extra year has come at the expense of rejuvenating the list somewhat.

If we don't win this year, we'll have to wait a couple of years for the bottom end of the list to mature a little bit, but we have enough depth in youth to think that we won't really fall that far.

[Lurgan]

I really wonder how many players are carrying injuries which is affecting their form.

I don't have any facts to back this up, but I seriously wonder if we have a lot of problems on the physical side which we don't know about.

Interesting comment and thread.

I wonder about that too, DR, and my sense is that there are more injuries than we really know about. When I wrote above that we have the physical ingredients I meant, of course, with fit players.

Hargrave isn't quite old enough to be labelled 'old' , but he was clearly affected by injury for at least a few weeks. Higgins isn't old at all, but if he can't run faster than he did on Friday when fully fit, then he has no future in football. He's obviously carrying something. My point is that when older players carry an injury and play below par it's easy to put it down to age, when that may not be the real reason. We didn't hear about Aker being too old at the end of last year when he was in our best few for a number of weeks— most people were keen to find a way to keep him.

Clubs are never going to tell the truth on their injury lists either. For instance, I knew Reid was sore at the end of last year but I had no idea he was playing with pieces of cartiledge actually detached in his hip. You don't find these things out until later, if at all.

On the other matter of who's going to replace our older players as they retire, I actually think we're better placed than we have been for a while. Among talls, Grant is looking likely, so is Roughead, and Cordy is at least promising, if ever not injured. I wouldn't give up on Boumann, who's improving, and although I haven't really seen it yet, people think Jones is a real prospect. Even Panos, with good hands, might be a chance, although he's not super tall and pace might be the real issue. Everitt would probably have stayed in the seniors if he hadn't been injured, and I think will be back next week.

Smaller players? We've already seen Higgins, Ward and Picken fixtures in the seniors and Reid pushing for selection. There are others like Tutt and Howard who look good and then a Liberatore and a Wallis to come.

Of course there are others too, but I don't think we can say young players haven't been promoted or that there aren't others close to selection.

[LostDoggy]

We have been like that for a few seasons and I don't think it's linked to the NAB cup win.

Great thread by the way.

Thank GVGjr. Worried that some may have seen this thread as reactionary, but I think we've all seem something this year that is worth talking about.

I agree that our performances have always been like this under Eade -- a certain lack of flexibility in individual players in reacting to real-time game situations, I suppose, you could call it. Only Aker and Bazz and to a certain extent Lake, Gilbee and Harbrow have that game sense of being able to improvise in real-time. Coons and Griff should be able to as well but they seem to be more practised rather than instinctive. The rest of our list is robotic -- ie. disciplined and all that, but not able to influence a game with that little bit of improvisation that is sometimes needed in tight games (Jobe Watson was doing this on Friday).

It's just that it seems to have gone up a notch this year, so that instead of really thinking through a situation instinctively (I know that seems oxymoronic, but I think you know what I mean), we just go through the motions of 'following instructions' so that if you make a mistake you can say that you were just following instructions. It usually happens when you are down on confidence or your form is down a bit, when you start focussing on the details and technique, and forcing things rather than relying on a feel for the game situation and on your own sense of timing. Golfers will know what I mean.

We're playing with hope rather more than playing with confidence.

[Murphy'sLore]

Perhaps, paradoxically, the fact that we have been performing so poorly might remove some of that pressure - hardly anybody seems to think we are still a shoe-in for the GF. Maybe with expectations lowered, the players might relax and feel free to play in a bolder, more risky fashion, which ironically, might result in greater success?

[Grantysghost]

Interstingly we have used the least amount of players this year, which backs up the not enough youth argument...

http://finalsiren.com/TeamStatsSummary.asp?SeasonID=2010&Sort=PlayersUsed%20Desc

[LostDoggy]

Interstingly we have used the least amount of players this year, which backs up the not enough youth argument...

http://finalsiren.com/TeamStatsSummary.asp?SeasonID=2010&Sort=PlayersUsed%20Desc

This has probably more to do with the Premiership tilt -- St. Kilda last year didn't blood a single rookie all season (their 'new' players -- Dawson, Ray -- were all recycled) and it was seen as a sign of a settled, mature team with hardened bodies going full tilt at a flag rather than rebuilding.

[Mantis]

This has probably more to do with the Premiership tilt -- St. Kilda last year didn't blood a single rookie all season (their 'new' players -- Dawson, Ray -- were all recycled) and it was seen as a sign of a settled, mature team with hardened bodies going full tilt at a flag rather than rebuilding.

And the fact that a few on the cusp of our best 22 to 25 have been injured and haven't been able to push for selection. These would include Tiller, Ward, Callan & Reid who have been injured for most or all of the season.

[Grantysghost]

This has probably more to do with the Premiership tilt -- St. Kilda last year didn't blood a single rookie all season (their 'new' players -- Dawson, Ray -- were all recycled) and it was seen as a sign of a settled, mature team with hardened bodies going full tilt at a flag rather than rebuilding.

Fair point - players used is almost the ladder in reverse (except dogs :rolleyes:)

[mjp]

Perhaps it is because there is no-one at Williamstown who is actually ready to play.

Who is really challenging for a spot right now??? No-one. I guess you could say Wood is, but it is not as if he is putting together consecutive BOG performances demanding to be selected.

[Mofra]

Who is really challenging for a spot right now??? No-one. I guess you could say Wood is, but it is not as if he is putting together consecutive BOG performances demanding to be selected.
Roughy & Everitt have done well to challenge for spots, ditto Moles, however they are 3 guys who have played already (Everitt just returning from injury).

Would be nice for Reid to regain some fitness & along with Wood start to pressure the seniors.

[GVGjr]

Perhaps it is because there is no-one at Williamstown who is actually ready to play.

Who is really challenging for a spot right now??? No-one. I guess you could say Wood is, but it is not as if he is putting together consecutive BOG performances demanding to be selected.

Over the last few seasons being in the best for Williamstown has never been a compelling consideration for a promotion to the senior side. We have often promoted players when we think they are ready more than because they have knocked down the door.

I think form on the training track speaks louder to the selectors.

[mjp]

Over the last few seasons being in the best for Williamstown has never been a compelling consideration for a promotion to the senior side. We have often promoted players when we think they are ready more than because they have knocked down the door.

I think form on the training track speaks louder to the selectors.

How's that working for us exactly?

If Wood (for example) wants to be thought of as an AFL player, he should be dominating at VFL level...and training well / performing well in the gamesense drills.

Surely those two things are aligned.

[GVGjr]

How's that working for us exactly?

If Wood (for example) wants to be thought of as an AFL player, he should be dominating at VFL level...and training well / performing well in the gamesense drills.

Surely those two things are aligned.


Very much hit and miss I would have thought. Last season Grant was promoted with no form or fitness and not surprisingly failed. This year he had a bit of both and has performed well.
Reid probably knocked the door down last year but got injured in his first game.
Regarding the 2nd highlighted section, based on what I have seen at Williamstown it's not a hard rule.

Regarding Wood, I don't think he is the sort of player that will dominate games because he isn't a high possession winner but it doesn't mean that he cant be a solid contributor when called into the seniors. I just wonder if the likes of Ward and Reid were fit if people would still be so keen to see Wood promoted.

[Mantis]

Regarding Wood, I don't think he is the sort of player that will dominate games because he isn't a high possession winner but it doesn't mean that he cant be a solid contributor when called into the seniors. I just wonder if the likes of Ward and Reid were fit if people would still be so keen to see Wood promoted.

Probably not, but both are injured so we have to look at other options with Wood being one of these.

I would be bringing in Wood to play the role that Addison has been filling, but hasn't quite made his own.

[Mofra]

I would be bringing in Wood to play the role that Addison has been filling, but hasn't quite made his own.
Ideally Reid could come in and fill that role as a better fit, but I'm not convinced (by some reports) that he is fully match fit.
I think Wood is better overhead than DFA, even with DFAs improvement his year.

[mjp]

Unfortunately for Addison he is the sort of player we will always be trying to replace. His courage over the ball etc are valuable, but unless he plays at his absolute best he is not a contributor at AFL level. I am not sure anyone has the ability to perform at 90% plus week in week out...I suppose we will find out if Addison is the rare one who can.

Wood has a bit of x-factor with his leg speed and general athleticism. I agree he wont necessarily be a high possession winner, but he SHOULD be an impact player at VFL level and regularly discussed amongst the best players. He isn't / hasn't been and therefore he is playing at the right level.

[Ghost Dog]

This thread focuses on the mental aspect and makes many good points.

But on the physical side, the team just looks old, slow and very tired and I really wonder how many players are carrying injuries which is affecting their form.

I don't have any facts to back this up, but I seriously wonder if we have a lot of problems on the physical side which we don't know about.

Certainly we have struggled against the faster teams.
Essendon and Melbourne are examples. North would have been in the game if they had been able to hit the side of f barn.

[Remi Moses]

Can't agree with that, what about:

Hill, Stack, Grant, Roughead, Ward, Reid, Picken, Moles, Wood, Everitt, all introduced in the last couple of years.

Beat me to it . Just watched that game friday night and the lack of intensity and work ethic was a standout as well as the appalling turnovers. Just about time for shaun Higgins to have a spell that left foot dinky crap pass just about summed up his season