How do we cover Lakes absence down back?

[chef]

Lake needs to play forward(or we need to play another tall forward) IMO if we are going to have a shot a the flag, but this leaves a gaping hole in our defence. Are we able to fill this?

[Mofra]

No disrespect to Hahn, but I'm not sure he's a long term option down there. If he is persisted with, Markovic must be thinking he is a real chance for a debut at some stage.

Between Morris & Williams, the one extra tall we bring in should be able to cover Lake's absence.

[chef]

No disrespect to Hahn, but I'm not sure he's a long term option down there. If he is persisted with, Markovic must be thinking he is a real chance for a debut at some stage.

Between Morris & Williams, the one extra tall we bring in should be able to cover Lake's absence.

Maybe Everitt and Boumann are options too.

[lemmon]

He's an All Australian full back, moving him up forward would not only be robbing Peter but siphoning out his bank account. It has been glaringly obvious playing a second tall forward would be favorable so I'd rather see Jones be blooded or Minson/Hudson rest up there.

[LostDoggy]

Could actually have a few options, if they wanted to go down the Lake up forward move.

Everitt is definitely tall enough to play down back, has built up his strength & body over the last couple of seasons. Has the speed to keep up with the quick forwards and could provide plenty of run from the back half for us, hurting the opposition on the rebound.

Tiller, a small option to Everitt & Lake but could hold his own. If fit i think he can definitely force his way into the team, proved to be a good defender in the finals a couple of seasons back.

Markovic would be a massive long shot, just in my opinion.

[GVGjr]

Markovic would be a massive long shot, just in my opinion.

Especially since he hasn't played for a number of weeks.

[Rocco Jones]

We play Brisbane and are already top heavy.

[The Pie Man]

He's an All Australian full back, moving him up forward would not only be robbing Peter but siphoning out his bank account. It has been glaringly obvious playing a second tall forward would be favorable so I'd rather see Jones be blooded or Minson/Hudson rest up there.

I get the above point, and suspect the vast majority on WOOF will agree as well...and no doubt the MC will as well, and we'll see Lake at FB next week.

One thing I'll say to counter is that every time Brian goes forward he looks great there - we all think Jones will one day make a decent forward option, but having played no senior footy, he could be the next Tim Walsh...we just don't know.

What we do know is that Brian takes marks and kicks goals when played forward. I also thought the Lake/Hall partnership looked very promising.

Especially with the Brown/Fevola duel next week, I imagine Brian will be in the back half next week, and that makes complete sense. Hargrave might be ready to come back to push Williams onto Brown, but Williams on Brown.......

[Jasper]

At best Lake forward is short term option until Murphy and in particular Johnson get back, but it won't happen against Brisbane. Next week don't see Lake leaving Brown too much, although hopefully he gets a breather and doesn't get blown up by Brown like last time.

Lake is the most irreplaceable player at the club, closely followed by Hall. So I don't see anyone replacing Lakey at FB. Hopefully the forward line can sharpen up with Johnno, Murphy and a fit Higgins....and pea-hearted forward line players don't get a game anymore.

[chef]

At best Lake forward is short term option until Murphy and in particular Johnson get back, but it won't happen against Brisbane. Next week don't see Lake leaving Brown too much, although hopefully he gets a breather and doesn't get blown up by Brown like last time.

Lake is the most irreplaceable player at the club, closely followed by Hall. So I don't see anyone replacing Lakey at FB. Hopefully the forward line can sharpen up with Johnno, Murphy and a fit Higgins....and pea-hearted forward line players don't get a game anymore.

Not unless we are getting flogged again.

[mjp]

So, when Hawthorn beat us in the 2008 finals we needed MORE big defenders and the development of Williams would see us win the flag. Then when St Kilda beat us in the 2009 prelim it was all about our lack of a power forward that cost us - the recruitment of Hall would see us win the flag.

Somehow, we now have both Williams settled in and Hall kicking goals, yet we are further away from a flag than at any time in the last two years...

Is anyone else tired of us playing game-plan catch up? Can't we try and set a trend rather than continually react to a perceived problem? Moving deck-chairs around is not the answer - attack on the footy, willingness to run with the ball and a preparedness to work to provide a target for a team-mate.

Stuff positional changes - get back to playing bulldogs footy.

[Mofra]

Somehow, we now have both Williams settled in and Hall kicking goals, yet we are further away from a flag than at any time in the last two years...
Johnson
Murphy
Akermanis
Higgins

4 of our 6 best forwards from last year are out or were playing injured today - I can't think of any team that could lose that much firepower and not have it effect their gamestyle.

I think taking Mooney, Hawkins, Johnson and Chapman out of the Geelong side would radically change the way they play, ditto Roo, Kosi, Milne & Schneider out of the Saints.

I think we are only playing catch-up at the moment because of the personnel changes that have occurred. Yes some of the above mentioned players are 30+, but one fit fortnight of any of the 4 would have gotten us over the line in the last two weeks IMO.

[Jasper]

I think we are only playing catch-up at the moment because of the personnel changes that have occurred. Yes some of the above mentioned players are 30+, but one fit fortnight of any of the 4 would have gotten us over the line in the last two weeks IMO.

If we couldn't predict that:

Murphy would injure his knee - when its happened every year for the since he broke it
Johnson, Hall and Aker (and Eagle) some or all would break down then we have been kidding ourselves.

Most people who watched the increae in game speed and looked at our list could see were short a short fast forward. The aging/broken legs of these forwards could not be relied upon.

Yes we have been a little unlucky with players like Higgins and Ward injured whose mid rotations could have freed up more creative mids to play forward...but ah what can you say, if we are playing Stack then we are up shit street.

[mjp]

Johnson
Murphy
Akermanis
Higgins


Great. Anything about the form of ANY of those guys so far this year convince you they are the same player as in 2009?

[Mofra]

Great. Anything about the form of ANY of those guys so far this year convince you they are the same player as in 2009?
Strange as it sounds, Johnson still has his ability to find the football which means he could be useful in the 2nd half of the season.

I take your point on the others - Higgins especially, they simply can't be effective players whilst carrying niggles.

[mjp]

Strange as it sounds, Johnson still has his ability to find the football which means he could be useful in the 2nd half of the season.

I take your point on the others - Higgins especially, they simply can't be effective players whilst carrying niggles.

Johnson will be important in the second half of the year. If he can come back and contribute it might be our only hope.

[AndrewP6]

I think if we are seriously considering moving Lake, we're in strife.

[boydogs]

Lake could be replaced by Robert Murphy. Sounds strange, but really Morris and Williams are our lock down defenders and Lake is a floating 3rd man up, which Murphy is more likely to be successful at than as a CHF when underdone

[hujsh]

I just put this in the Gameday thread but Everitt could take Hahn's role forward and if he's not doing well he's at least a better option to replace Lake down back.

[LostDoggy]

So, when Hawthorn beat us in the 2008 finals we needed MORE big defenders and the development of Williams would see us win the flag. Then when St Kilda beat us in the 2009 prelim it was all about our lack of a power forward that cost us - the recruitment of Hall would see us win the flag.

Somehow, we now have both Williams settled in and Hall kicking goals, yet we are further away from a flag than at any time in the last two years...

Is anyone else tired of us playing game-plan catch up? Can't we try and set a trend rather than continually react to a perceived problem? Moving deck-chairs around is not the answer - attack on the footy, willingness to run with the ball and a preparedness to work to provide a target for a team-mate.

Stuff positional changes - get back to playing bulldogs footy.

Agree with this post entirely.

[Remi Moses]

So, when Hawthorn beat us in the 2008 finals we needed MORE big defenders and the development of Williams would see us win the flag. Then when St Kilda beat us in the 2009 prelim it was all about our lack of a power forward that cost us - the recruitment of Hall would see us win the flag.

Somehow, we now have both Williams settled in and Hall kicking goals, yet we are further away from a flag than at any time in the last two years...

Is anyone else tired of us playing game-plan catch up? Can't we try and set a trend rather than continually react to a perceived problem? Moving deck-chairs around is not the answer - attack on the footy, willingness to run with the ball and a preparedness to work to provide a target for a team-mate.

Stuff positional changes - get back to playing bulldogs footy.

Here here we are so bloody reactive instead of pro-active

[Doc26]

I think if we are seriously considering moving Lake, we're in strife.

Andrew, we do need to seriously consider it because we are in strife. The momentum of tonight's game did swing the moment Lake moved forward although a heap of credit must go to Cooney's last quarter where all of a sudden we were getting clean use out of the centre. Collingwood's back looked unsettled and started to lose their drive out of defense. The Hall and Lake combo looked quite imposing. On the way home from the match we were all taking to this thread's topic. Everitt, Murphy on return or even roll the dice with Boumann or Mulligan giving them an opportunity that would appear premature.

[Ghost Dog]

A Somehow, we now have both Williams settled in and Hall kicking goals, yet we are further away from a flag than at any time in the last two years...


B : Is anyone else tired of us playing game-plan catch up? Can't we try and set a trend rather than continually react to a perceived problem? Moving deck-chairs around is not the answer - attack on the footy, willingness to run with the ball and a preparedness to work to provide a target for a team-mate.



Stuff positional changes - get back to playing bulldogs footy.

I disagree with A. Glass is Half full guys! Not as far away as you think. Competition is more even now. Cats were almost beaten last night. Saints have been towled up a few times. We were 2 and a bit kicks away from a win tonight.

I very MUCH agree with B. Throw caution to the wind and go all out guys.

[AndrewP6]

I disagree with A. Glass is Half full guys! Not as far away as you think. Competition is more even now. Cats were almost beaten last night. Saints have been towled up a few times. We were 2 and a bit kicks away from a win tonight.


At the end, yes. Once the Pies had taken the foot off the pedal, we managed to sneak back. But for long periods of the game, we were barely in the hunt.

[AndrewP6]

Andrew, we do need to seriously consider it because we are in strife. The momentum of tonight's game did swing the moment Lake moved forward although a heap of credit must go to Cooney's last quarter where all of a sudden we were getting clean use out of the centre. Collingwood's back looked unsettled and started to lose their drive out of defense. The Hall and Lake combo looked quite imposing. On the way home from the match we were all taking to this thread's topic. Everitt, Murphy on return or even roll the dice with Boumann or Mulligan giving them an opportunity that would appear premature.

Don't disagree with this... just not convinced we should take our best backman away to achieve better results up front.

I reckon the improvement came when we got onto a few possessions in the middle. Fast movement, quick leads and precise disposal gives forwards a good look-in. It worries me when we do get a hold of the ball, and moving it forward, there is no one in our forward line.

[soupman]

Just on lake being up forward, he looks incredibly dangerous. You notice him when he goes there because of the style he plays.

Defenders don't quite know how to handle him. He doesn't do the long leads of a Nick Riewoldt and he doesn't exactly just stand there as a long stationary target. He tends to drift across packs and claim marks from kicks that seemingly weren't for him. His other strength is that he keeps his feet and is straight after the footy if he hasn't taken the mark. I really like him up forward, because he gives our forwardline a sense of urgency that I feel it lacks normally. Unfortunately his absence from the backline is too great for this to be too regular an occurance.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Jon Brown is not the right bloke to pick but I think it about time Tom Williams started taking a bit more responsibility.

That dreadful run-up he has with set shots notwithstanding, he really looked very dangerous down there.

[jazzadogs]

Jon Brown is not the right bloke to pick but I think it about time Tom Williams started taking a bit more responsibility.

That dreadful run-up he has with set shots notwithstanding, he really looked very dangerous down there.
At least he's not Josh Kennedy (although if he kicks that accurately, who cares!).

I think the fact that Hahn played extended periods in defence should show the MC that they stuffed up with their initial team selection. If Hahn is playing in defence, then he should not be in the team.

Lake forward is a good idea, but I agree with others who suggest that it's taking too much away from our current structure. We've spent what, 9 years, on developing Lake from a key forward to a key back, and now we're just going to change our mind?

He should pinch hit at most, unless he is genuinely not needed in defence (T Cloke did NOTHING today).

[LostDoggy]

Jon Brown is not the right bloke to pick but I think it about time Tom Williams started taking a bit more responsibility.



I agree. He's growing in confidence and his body has held together for eleven weeks so I think he's ready.

I'd be inclined to give Williams the first quarter on Brown.

[Desipura]

There is a bloke named Jones that should get a call up to play centre half forward. Apart from Lake, he is one player that knows how to take an overhead mark. He is no less ready than Williams who we have carried to 40 odd games due to his physical capabilities if nothing else.
Yes I know Jones is not 100kgs, he has a footy brain and has been in the system over 12 months. Grant got a game when he first started, Jones should at least get a game this week.

[stefoid]

Keep doing what we are doing and play him in bursts.

I agree with the poster who said we need to move the ball on quickly without turnovers -- thats going to do more for our goal scoring than any amount personel changes.

[LostDoggy]

Johnson
Murphy
Akermanis
Higgins

4 of our 6 best forwards from last year are out or were playing injured today - I can't think of any team that could lose that much firepower and not have it effect their gamestyle.

I think taking Mooney, Hawkins, Johnson and Chapman out of the Geelong side would radically change the way they play, ditto Roo, Kosi, Milne & Schneider out of the Saints.


Totally agree Mofra, I was only thinking this yesterday. Last year we had fit and in form forwards - this year, Baz is trying to do it on his own. Weren't Johnno and Aker our highest goalkickers last year? Yes, Aker is down on form, but to have at least 2 of these guys on the park, fit and ready to go would be a bonus.

[Greystache]

There is a bloke named Jones that should get a call up to play centre half forward. Apart from Lake, he is one player that knows how to take an overhead mark. He is no less ready than Williams who we have carried to 40 odd games due to his physical capabilities if nothing else.
Yes I know Jones is not 100kgs, he has a footy brain and has been in the system over 12 months. Grant got a game when he first started, Jones should at least get a game this week.

Dont worry what the club website says, he'd be easily mid 90's. His arms aren't greatly developed yet, but he has a big frame and is quite big through the legs.

Having watched Jones regularly I'm not opposed to bringing him in at some stage, but that's more about giving him a taste than fixing our structure. I think hypothetically if he played on the weekend he'd end up with about 7-8 possesions and maybe a goal or two, but I think there'd be 2 or 3 big contested marks in there.

I agree we looked so much more dangerous with two big marking forwards down there, opposition teams simply can't double team both Lake and Hall at the same time, and one on one they'll routinely win in a marking contest. But until Williams can actually play as a key defender and hold his own against a player with some degree of talent the point is moot.

[Mantis]

I agree we looked so much more dangerous with two big marking forwards down there, opposition teams simply can't double team both Lake and Hall at the same time, and one on one they'll routinely win in a marking contest. But until Williams can actually play as a key defender and hold his own against a player with some degree of talent the point is moot.

With Hahn unable to compete in the air and Hill & Grant not physically strong enough we were very one-dimensional until Lake went forward.

With Merrett still misisng for Brisbane and with Staker and Maguire as the key defenders we almost have to roll the dice this week with the hope that our mids can win enough ball and Williams & Morris can hold Brown & Fev.

[bornadog]

Lake could be replaced by Robert Murphy. Sounds strange, but really Morris and Williams are our lock down defenders and Lake is a floating 3rd man up, which Murphy is more likely to be successful at than as a CHF when underdone

Williams isnot good enough yet to hold down the backline. Morris is too short for a KPP

[Desipura]

With Hahn unable to compete in the air and Hill & Grant not physically strong enough we were very one-dimensional until Lake went forward.

With Merrett still misisng for Brisbane and with Staker and Maguire as the key defenders we almost have to roll the dice this week with the hope that our mids can win enough ball and Williams & Morris can hold Brown & Fev.

Maguire might not be fit to play this week, he came off with an injury to his foot. Big dice to roll expecting Williams & Morris to stop Fev & Brown.
If Rought comes in, he can pinch hit at CHF.

[Greystache]

With Hahn unable to compete in the air and Hill & Grant not physically strong enough we were very one-dimensional until Lake went forward.

With Merrett still misisng for Brisbane and with Staker and Maguire as the key defenders we almost have to roll the dice this week with the hope that our mids can win enough ball and Williams & Morris can hold Brown & Fev.

It is tempting, and it's not as if we can't change back should it be going awry, but something tells me we'll err on the side of caution (just for something different!)

Also is it just me or do you think it's worth playing Grant (assuming he's not suspended) deep inside 50m as a pacy crumbing forward? I know that's not what we drafted him for and not what he'll be in the long term, but at the moment he's the only genuinely quick player, who's good below his knees, who has some goal sense, and will chase and apply defensive pressure we have. He also has the bonus of being good overhead should he be isolated one on one with a small defender.

[Mantis]

Also is it just me or do you think it's worth playing Grant (assuming he's not suspended) deep inside 50m as a pacy crumbing forward? I know that's not what we drafted him for and not what he'll be in the long term, but at the moment he's the only genuinely quick player, who's good below his knees, who has some goal sense, and will chase and apply defensive pressure we have. He also has the bonus of being good overhead should he be isolated one on one with a small defender.

No.

We have very few of our forwards who are willing to work hard up the ground and as Grant is he has to continue in this role. Amongst many things in my Saturday morning 'rant' I asked for Stack, Hill and Grant to get on their bikes and to work up the ground... They didn't do this at all well.

[LostDoggy]

I think we need to seriously consider Lake playing forward this week. Here's Brisbane's team from last week:


Brisbane Lions
B: Ashley McGrath, Matt Maguire, James Hawksley
HB: Travis Johnstone, Joel Patfull, Tom Collier
C: Justin Sherman, Sam Sheldon, Jared Brennan
HF: Todd Banfield, Jonathan Brown, Jack Redden
F: Luke Power, Brendan Fevola, Brent Staker
Foll: Mitchell Clark, Amon Buchanan, Michael Rischitelli
I/C: Daniel Rich, Simon Black, Matthew Leuenberger, Tom Rockliff


With Maguire looking like being out for a long period and also Mcgrath doing a hamstring it puts a massive whole in there already depleted backline. Merritt is still 2 weeks away from returning.

Patful would have to play on Hall, Who plays on Lake? If we can manage to dominate the midfield which we should. Lake + Hall could cause some massive issues for that backline. They will alsmot need to use Brennan as a CHB.

[jazzadogs]

I think we need to seriously consider Lake playing forward this week. Here's Brisbane's team from last week:


Brisbane Lions
B: Ashley McGrath, Matt Maguire, James Hawksley
HB: Travis Johnstone, Joel Patfull, Tom Collier
C: Justin Sherman, Sam Sheldon, Jared Brennan
HF: Todd Banfield, Jonathan Brown, Jack Redden
F: Luke Power, Brendan Fevola, Brent Staker
Foll: Mitchell Clark, Amon Buchanan, Michael Rischitelli
I/C: Daniel Rich, Simon Black, Matthew Leuenberger, Tom Rockliff


With Maguire looking like being out for a long period and also Mcgrath doing a hamstring it puts a massive whole in there already depleted backline. Merritt is still 2 weeks away from returning.

Patful would have to play on Hall, Who plays on Lake? If we can manage to dominate the midfield which we should. Lake + Hall could cause some massive issues for that backline. They will alsmot need to use Brennan as a CHB.
In that scenario, it would have to be Morris on Fev and Williams on Brown. Everitt to come in and play on Staker.

It's a very tough decision for the MC, and not one that will work every week. It's good to have plan b's and c's, but I'd prefer to get our Plan A to work first.

[Mantis]

It's a very tough decision for the MC, and not one that will work every week. It's good to have plan b's and c's, but I'd prefer to get our Plan A to work first.

Plan A I would think would have the following line-up on current form (Hahn being out of form) and with no injuries:

HF: Higgins, Murphy, Grant
F: Johnson, Hall, Hill

Back-up from Aker, Ward, Gia and maybe Hahn.

With the bolded players likely to miss we need to to look at other options which include Lake playing forward.

[jazzadogs]

Plan A I would think would have the following line-up on current form (Hahn being out of form) and with no injuries:

HF: Higgins, Murphy, Grant
F: Johnson, Hall, Hill

Back-up from Aker, Ward, Gia and maybe Hahn.

With the bolded players likely to miss we need to to look at other options which include Lake playing forward.
Yep, good point. I didn't really think about that aspect of 'Plan A'...I was more referring to our delivery into the forward line, pressure etc, which we should be putting most of our efforts into improving.

But if we don't have a decent forward line that won't matter that much anyway.

[LostDoggy]

Keep doing what we are doing and play him in bursts.

I agree with the poster who said we need to move the ball on quickly without turnovers -- thats going to do more for our goal scoring than any amount personel changes.

Agree with this post. He needs to be used as a surprise packet; I think he would struggle if left there permanently.

[LostDoggy]

Agree with this post. He needs to be used as a surprise packet; I think he would struggle if left there permanently.

We need a swingman to play Lake up forward in bursts, and Hahn is not the man for the job. A classic modern day utility is Everitt, who could do a job up forward (no worse than Hahn, surely!) but also swing around with Lake (with some backline reshuffling) if needed.

[Hotdog60]

I'll throw this thought out there, what about trying Williams on the forward line. Tommy can take a mark overhead, a couple of games back he had a ping from 50 and it was just off line. He might prefer to lead up to the ball and he could have the defensive mind set as well.

Just a thought.

[lemmon]

I'll throw this thought out there, what about trying Williams on the forward line. Tommy can take a mark overhead, a couple of games back he had a ping from 50 and it was just off line. He might prefer to lead up to the ball and he could have the defensive mind set as well.

Just a thought.

Wouldn't have the footy smarts to lead to the right areas, drag his man away etc would just get in Halls way and cause more problems.
Not to mention that he doesn't demand the ball and wouldn't offer heaps with the ball on the deck or in providing defensive pressure.
I'm in favor of blooding Jones, he'd probably be matched up by a guy like Patful or Staker who aren't the most physical players anyway not to mention that he's an actual forward. He's not massive but hes no stick and his form is solid.

[chef]

I'll throw this thought out there, what about trying Williams on the forward line. Tommy can take a mark overhead, a couple of games back he had a ping from 50 and it was just off line. He might prefer to lead up to the ball and he could have the defensive mind set as well.

Just a thought.

He wouldn't have Lakes presence up forward.

[LongWait]

Lake forced the Pies into sheer panic when he went up forward. All of a sudden the quick, blind bomb into the forward line was the LAST thing the Pies defenders wanted us to do.

Lake is the second best full-back in the country but let's not forget the Pies kicked tons of goals when Lake was in defense and we kicked tons of goals when Lake went forward. I'm not suggesting that Lake as a permanent full-forward is the answer, but I would advocate we experiment more frequently with it. It certainly makes the quick kick forward out of a stoppage a viable option instead of over-possessing, looking for the perfect footpass to a leading target.

Lake didn't stop the Collingwood avalanche but he had a fair hand in setting up the Bulldogs avalanche.

[LostDoggy]

It seems obvious to me bring everett into the team who can play back and forward,so then you can have lake go foward and then back when needed. If we start with lake up forward and manage a good start he can go back and defend for the second half.


But also i think the most important change is Tim Callan in for Adison that gives you then the option of shuffling the defence around Tim played well for willy and has strong body for big forwards and could play smalls.