Young blokes to take us forward

[soupman]

Who are the young players that are going to become best 22 players and where do they sit at the moment?

As has been covered numerous times (particularly in the media) we have an ageing list. Johnson, Aka and Eagleton are all more than likely to retire this season, with Hall soon to follow. Further to this, guys like Hudson and the draft class of 1999 (Murphy, Gia, Gilbee, Hargrave and Hahn) are all players that could begin to decline and potentially retire in 3-5 years. But the question at the moment is how do we compliment this older group of players with the young players sitting on our list?

So far there have only been a couple of players in the younger age group to establish themselves in the 22, namely Callan Ward, Liam Picken and Jarrod Harbrow. For the purposes of this argument I count those players that have had considreable experience as established members of the side excluded from this thread ie. Cooney and Griffen.

So who are the player's that are going to stake a claim for a regular spot in our side this season, and can actually offer us more than a more established player. Jarrad Grant is the obvious example, but I'm interested in peoples thoughts on the potential contributions of guys like Brennan Stack, Sam Reid, Stephen Tiller and maybe even a Jarrod Boumann.

[LostDoggy]

I am pretty confident that Reid will force his way in, during the second half of the season.

[FrediKanoute]

You have to look at the following guys currently on our list being our core for the next 4 or 5 seasons:

Lake - 3 seasons
Murphy - 4 seasons
Cross - 4 seasons
Boyd - 4 seasons
Gia - 3 seasons
Gilbee - 3 seasons
Morris - 3 seasons
Hargrave - 3 seasons
Cooney - 5+ seasons
Griffin - 5+ seasons
Higgins - 5+ seasons
Minson - 5+ seasons
Picken - 5+ seasons
Grant - 5+ seasons
Everitt - 5+ seasons
Ward - 5 +seasons
Harbrow - 5+ seasons (assuming he doesn't go to GC)
Hill - 5+ seasons
Reid - 5+ seasons
Roughhead - 5+ seasons

I don't think you can really say for definite whether they other guys on our list will make it or will be a part of the team beyond the next couple of seasons.

[Bulldog Joe]

You have to look at the following guys currently on our list being our core for the next 4 or 5 seasons:

Lake - 3 seasons
Murphy - 4 seasons
Cross - 4 seasons
Boyd - 4 seasons
Gia - 3 seasons
Gilbee - 3 seasons
Morris - 3 seasons
Hargrave - 3 seasons
Cooney - 5+ seasons
Griffin - 5+ seasons
Higgins - 5+ seasons
Minson - 5+ seasons
Picken - 5+ seasons
Grant - 5+ seasons
Everitt - 5+ seasons
Ward - 5 +seasons
Harbrow - 5+ seasons (assuming he doesn't go to GC)
Hill - 5+ seasons
Reid - 5+ seasons
Roughhead - 5+ seasons

I don't think you can really say for definite whether they other guys on our list will make it or will be a part of the team beyond the next couple of seasons.

That's not a bad start.
20 players if we keep them all (fit/GC/GWS)

Add in
Jones
Wood
Howard and Tutt (hopefully)
Wallis and Liberatore (more than hopefully - think they can both be regulars in 2011)

Then developing on the list who might

Boumann
Cordy

and you still have
Addison
Moles
Tiller
Stack

as good depth.

[Ghost Dog]

IMO it would be good to give some youngsters a run now. Ideally to replace Hahn and Eagleton / stack / just for a game or two. No disprespect to these players, would still like to see them around.
I think the problem is our line up has become too predictable. Carlton dropped a few players and So did St Kilda and made them earn their spot. It was good for the dropped players and good for thoses teams.
Let's face it, they cannot do THAT much worse than these guys are at the moment.
All three look very VFL at the moment.

[Mofra]

I would be happy to see Jones get a debut due to Grant's suspension - give the kid a taste.
Reid will come in when he is fit, and Ward is only a few weeks away (also needing match fitness).
Roughead is developing nicely and will get games when either Hudson or Minson is rested.

[Mantis]

You have to look at the following guys currently on our list being our core for the next 4 or 5 seasons:

Lake - 3 seasons
Murphy - 4 seasons
Cross - 4 seasons
Boyd - 4 seasons
Gia - 3 seasons
Gilbee - 3 seasons
Morris - 3 seasons
Hargrave - 3 seasons


I think you have been very generous with a few of these players and think that more than one of these will be under pressure to remain post 2011, and depending on how the rest of the 2010 unfolds we may trade one or 2 of these out while they still hold some currency.

[LostDoggy]

That's not a bad start.
20 players if we keep them all (fit/GC/GWS)

Add in
Jones
Wood
Howard and Tutt (hopefully)
Wallis and Liberatore (more than hopefully - think they can both be regulars in 2011)

Then developing on the list who might

Boumann
Cordy

and you still have
Addison
Moles
Tiller
Stack

as good depth.

Not to mention any trades and draft/rookie pickups in the meantime.


IMO it would be good to give some youngsters a run now. Ideally to replace Hahn and Eagleton / stack / just for a game or two. No disprespect to these players, would still like to see them around.
I think the problem is our line up has become too predictable. Carlton dropped a few players and So did St Kilda and made them earn their spot. It was good for the dropped players and good for thoses teams.
Let's face it, they cannot do THAT much worse than these guys are at the moment.
All three look very VFL at the moment.

Stack aside, I agree. I think Stack has done fine for what is basically a first year player, he had very little game time before this year and he is finding his feet. If I can bear it with Williams, I'll bear it with Stack.


I would be happy to see Jones get a debut due to Grant's suspension - give the kid a taste.
Reid will come in when he is fit, and Ward is only a few weeks away (also needing match fitness).
Roughead is developing nicely and will get games when either Hudson or Minson is rested.

Roughead is a gem. Can't wait for the big fella to join the People's Beard. That said, I thought Minson's effort on Sunday was great, and maybe further proof of the benefit of dropping some players.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Stack aside, I agree. I think Stack has done fine for what is basically a first year player, he had very little game time before this year and he is finding his feet. If I can bear it with Williams, I'll bear it with Stack.


First year player?

Stack was drafted in 2006 and is already 22.

[Go_Dogs]

First year player?

Stack was drafted in 2006 and is already 22.

But he said, basically a first year player, in that, he hasn't played many AFL games, which I tend to think is a fair assessment.




This season we have had a number of injuries to our younger players, which hasn't helped their/our cause much. It's going to be very interesting to see what happens at the end of the year with the list, because I'm starting to think we'll look at making up to 7 changes to the senior list. We're going to have to make some tough decisions on players, but if we don't believe they are going to make the level, we need to quickly move them on and try and find some others who are going to make the required level.

[Mofra]

But he said, basically a first year player, in that, he hasn't played many AFL games, which I tend to think is a fair assessment.
I think that's being a bit generous to Stack. He's still spent plenty of time in the system, and hasn't missed entire seasons due injury.

Hill is younger and lighter but is a fair way ahead of him, Everitt is a young tall, is younger and ahead of him, Grant is younger, taller, and has spent less time in the system and has had injury interrupted seasons in his past three years but is miles ahead.

Even DFA who is a similar age and has obvious limitations is ahead of Stack. I'm worried.

[Mantis]

Even DFA who is a similar age and has obvious limitations is ahead of Stack. I'm worried.

Dylan has played 51 AFL games, Brennan has played just 8.

If Brennan had played 50 games and he still was making the same mistakes then as he is now I would be concerned.

[Go_Dogs]

Dylan has played 51 AFL games, Brennan has played just 8.

If Brennan had played 50 games and he still was making the same mistakes then as he is now I would be concerned.

Yep, that's the point I was trying to make.


Josh Hill and Dylan Addison both continue to make the same mistakes (I think both have improved on last year, but still have limitations that they need to continue to work on) but both have played a lot of football now. They should be more accountable in their performance than Stack, regardless of age.

As far as Stack goes, he's a young/inexperienced player, playing in a team that is struggling big time, in one of the most difficult spots on the ground (as far as being able to influence the contest and stay involved) and as such, I think he's done a serviceable job over the course of his matches.

He can lead up, he can mark, he can tackle, he can kick. He just needs to get his intensity/contested/consistency areas to improve, but those are areas that improve with age, strength and confidence in the body.

[bornadog]

Dylan has played 51 AFL games, Brennan has played just 8.

If Brennan had played 50 games and he still was making the same mistakes then as he is now I would be concerned.

Agreed, forget his age at this stage. He has shown some potential and needs experience.

I loved that goal in the last quarter when he took them on and kicked the goal. He did that twice against Essendon, one was a magnificent run from the backline only to be stopped by a silly free kick behind play when Gilbee laid a shephard deemed too far off the ball (I think it was fair but the umpire disagreed) and the other one where he was running into an open goal and took one step too many. These were all very exciting to watch.

If you watch the replay, the commentators are a little critical of Stacks awareness of other players where he had chances to switch the play but took the wrong option. This comes down to experience.

[Bulldog Joe]

My problem with Stack is that he avoided the contest more than once.
Inexperience is no excuse for stepping aside and letting your opponent have a free run.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Agreed, forget his age at this stage. He has shown some potential and needs experience.

I loved that goal in the last quarter when he took them on and kicked the goal. He did that twice against Essendon, one was a magnificent run from the backline only to be stopped by a silly free kick behind play when Gilbee laid a shephard deemed too far off the ball (I think it was fair but the umpire disagreed) and the other one where he was running into an open goal and took one step too many. These were all very exciting to watch.

If you watch the replay, the commentators are a little critical of Stacks awareness of other players where he had chances to switch the play but took the wrong option. This comes down to experience.

I'm diverting away from the discussion but the umpire said Gilbee shepharded in a marking contest. The ball was kicked way over all three players heads and none of them were trying to mark. The umpire just ballsed it up.

[Mantis]

My problem with Stack is that he avoided the contest more than once.
Inexperience is no excuse for stepping aside and letting your opponent have a free run.

I agree that it is poor when players don't fully commit to the contest and it's something Brennan needs to improve, he can't be seen to be a player who picks and chooses when he goes.

In saying that he has in the past 'gone' when he had to and came out none the worse for it so hopefully it's something that will come with further experience.

However should we more harshly judge a player who doesn't go, but has good skills or a player who does go, but can't dispose of the ball efficiently?

[BulldogBelle]

Here is who will not take us forward.

Addison-dud
The holey net. Just up to AFL standard. Once in a blue moon he will have a good game. Is beaten just about every time. Has no special skills. Should of been delisted last year. Has shown his potential in previous years, which is nil. Not as courageous or desperate a player as you may think. No where near the class of Cross (who doesn't have much class to speak of). Addison may be a bit lucky because he has had a fill-in role I don't know if we always had some-one to replace him. Addison is now well past the age of attainment.

Stack-dud
He is a tease and ditto with Addison, except worse. looks like he has something special but no. Another dozen or so games under his belt will do no good. He will just keep on teasing. Has shown quite clearly that he hasn't got what it takes.

Eade-dud
Just not smart enough for a coach. Takes him a year to do something. We should have Podsiadly playing for us. Why wasn't Everitt included last week as he is a 100% better player than the above two duds.

Moles-dud
Started the season like a house on fire then fell in a hole. Moles in the hole. He has played just crap. A big disappointment after promising so much early. I'm so upset with him, I'd like to kick him up the backside.

[Cyberdoggie]

First year player?

Stack was drafted in 2006 and is already 22.

How many years does a medium sized forward need to get his to AFL level?

Surely we can see that he's not good enough?

So far i've seen that he is slow to accelerate and change direction.
Adds nothing defensively despite playing as a defender for 2-3 seasons.
Has a worse left foot than Eagle has right!
Not a strong contested mark.
Has terrible peripheral vision.
Gets caught or run down 1-2 times per game.
Has down nothing when we needed him to in big games.

I really can't see a future for him, and i find it bizarre that he has played more AFL games than Easton Wood, who has shown far more at Williamstown.

[Mofra]

Dylan has played 51 AFL games, Brennan has played just 8.

If Brennan had played 50 games and he still was making the same mistakes then as he is now I would be concerned.
Clean ball handling is something by and large players either have or don't.
Boyd was dragged out of Frankston seconds because of his clean hands.
Stack has had 1 good AFL game where he showed intensity for 3 quarters, and since then barely manages to pick up a ball without fumbling first. Barely noticeable at VFL level when he goes back there.

I'm very concerned about Stack and his last two games have been terrible.

[always right]

I agree that it is poor when players don't fully commit to the contest and it's something Brennan needs to improve, he can't be seen to be a player who picks and chooses when he goes.

In saying that he has in the past 'gone' when he had to and came out none the worse for it so hopefully it's something that will come with further experience.

However should we more harshly judge a player who doesn't go, but has good skills or a player who does go, but can't dispose of the ball efficiently?

Unfortunately he appears to be the only aboriginal player in the AFL who has no ball skills.:(

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Agree with some that Stack would need to improve dramatically if he's to become an AFL player. His intensity is the biggest problem, pulled out of two noticeable contests and it looked pretty ordinary.

Having said that, I agree with Mantis that we shouldn't be 'all over him' when we've got far more experienced players still making basic, stupid errors. Stack's been in the system a while but it's evident he's very shy and lacks confidence. He's 22 but he plays like he's 19. He's shown he has some good qualities so although I think he should probably be dropped this week, I hope we don't forget about him.

Some players do develop later than others due to various reasons. Stack's had a good taste of senior football this year and with the right coaching, perhaps he can keep improving. My general rule is not to be too critical of a player that hasn't reached 50 games and considering he's only played the 8, I'm prepared to give him (and our coaching methods) a chance to keep working with him.

At least he played well against Sydney and North Melbourne - they aren't good sides, but they're still AFL sides. If he was doing nothing against them, then I'd be a little more concerned. He still has areas he really needs to work hard on but we've got bigger problems than Stack at the moment.

[AndrewP6]

Here is who will not take us forward.

Addison-dud
The holey net. Just up to AFL standard. Once in a blue moon he will have a good game. Is beaten just about every time. Has no special skills. Should of been delisted last year. Has shown his potential in previous years, which is nil. Not as courageous or desperate a player as you may think. No where near the class of Cross (who doesn't have much class to speak of). Addison may be a bit lucky because he has had a fill-in role I don't know if we always had some-one to replace him. Addison is now well past the age of attainment.

Stack-dud
He is a tease and ditto with Addison, except worse. looks like he has something special but no. Another dozen or so games under his belt will do no good. .He will just keep on teasing. Has shown quite clearly that he hasn't got what it takes

Eade-dud
Just not smart enough for a coach. Takes him a year to do something. We should have Podsiadly playing for us. Why wasn't Everitt included last week as he is a 100% better player than the above two duds.

Moles-dud
Started the season like a house on fire then fell in a hole. Moles in the hole. He has played just crap. A big disappointment after promising so much early. I'm so upset with him, I'd like to kick him up the backside.

Some tough assessments there! IMO Moles could be much more than you've given him credit for. Despite his chronological age, he's by and large new to the game/league. He, like all inexperienced players, will have down patches. His good form has shown me enough to keep him on board.

Don't disagree completely with DFA, Stack and Addison, but we can't just cut them all loose.

As for Rocket not drafting J-Pod, neither did Collingwood or Essendon who he spent time with, nor the remaining clubs who had plenty of time to assess him. He's one that got away from everyone - bar Geelong! We can only guess why certain players aren't picked, we're not privy to medical reports, training results, individual meetings etc... which would go towards determining the team selection.

[Before I Die]

Dylan has played 51 AFL games, Brennan has played just 8.

If Brennan had played 50 games and he still was making the same mistakes then as he is now I would be concerned.

But Stack has played over 50 games at VFL level against men. I don't understand why these games don't count. Yes AFL is a bit quicker but it is the same game. He is a full time footballer with access to an AFL clubs facilities, coaches, fitness staff etc. He is training with other professionals. He is not playing part-time in the country.

Does this also mean that if DFA had only managed 8 games by this stage of his career that you would have more confidence that he could become a decent player :confused::confused:

This seams to be SS's 21 game theory taken to the extreme.

I think the current injuries have given Stack his chance and it appears that he has blown it. The only thing that may extend his career is the large number of veterans who will most likely retire at the end of this year.

[Mantis]

But Stack has played over 50 games at VFL level against men. I don't understand why these games don't count. Yes AFL is a bit quicker but it is the same game. He is a full time footballer with access to an AFL clubs facilities, coaches, fitness staff etc. He is training with other professionals. He is not playing part-time in the country.

You obviously don't watch much VFL if you think that.


Does this also mean that if DFA had only managed 8 games by this stage of his career that you would have more confidence that he could become a decent player :confused::confused:

Yeah it probably does. You quite often see an improvement in young players from 15 games through to 50 and then further improvement after 50 games. Dylan probably hasn't improved as much as we would have hoped.


I think the current injuries have given Stack his chance and it appears that he has blown it. The only thing that may extend his career is the large number of veterans who will most likely retire at the end of this year.

With players out Stack hasn't had much support form his more experienced team-mates. All of Gia, Higgins & Hahn have been poor over the past month with only Hall carrying the load.

[Hotdog60]

I think Stack needs to grow a pair, against Nt Melb. he was there to show support for Barry when they all jumped on him. But was he in the replay it was just a token effort with no real commitment.

Once he realizes that he has to put it all on the line for the team I think we may have a very good player.

The question is will he do that.

[FrediKanoute]

Here is who will not take us forward.

Addison-dud
The holey net. Just up to AFL standard. Once in a blue moon he will have a good game. Is beaten just about every time. Has no special skills. Should of been delisted last year. Has shown his potential in previous years, which is nil. Not as courageous or desperate a player as you may think. No where near the class of Cross (who doesn't have much class to speak of). Addison may be a bit lucky because he has had a fill-in role I don't know if we always had some-one to replace him. Addison is now well past the age of attainment.

Stack-dud
He is a tease and ditto with Addison, except worse. looks like he has something special but no. Another dozen or so games under his belt will do no good. He will just keep on teasing. Has shown quite clearly that he hasn't got what it takes.

Eade-dud
Just not smart enough for a coach. Takes him a year to do something. We should have Podsiadly playing for us. Why wasn't Everitt included last week as he is a 100% better player than the above two duds.

Moles-dud
Started the season like a house on fire then fell in a hole. Moles in the hole. He has played just crap. A big disappointment after promising so much early. I'm so upset with him, I'd like to kick him up the backside.

You had me until you started writing. None of the above players are dud's and Eade is no dud. 2 of the guys you have mentioned have played less than 10 games of AFL football. A bit harsh to call time on the careers just yet. Addison, yes frustrating and I have doubts about his long term future with the club, but to say he lacks courage.....one has to question whether you a visually impaired!

[LostDoggy]

Here is who will not take us forward.

Addison-dud
The holey net. Just up to AFL standard. Once in a blue moon he will have a good game. Is beaten just about every time. Has no special skills. Should of been delisted last year. Has shown his potential in previous years, which is nil. Not as courageous or desperate a player as you may think. No where near the class of Cross (who doesn't have much class to speak of). Addison may be a bit lucky because he has had a fill-in role I don't know if we always had some-one to replace him. Addison is now well past the age of attainment.

Stack-dud
He is a tease and ditto with Addison, except worse. looks like he has something special but no. Another dozen or so games under his belt will do no good. He will just keep on teasing. Has shown quite clearly that he hasn't got what it takes.

Eade-dud
Just not smart enough for a coach. Takes him a year to do something. We should have Podsiadly playing for us. Why wasn't Everitt included last week as he is a 100% better player than the above two duds.

Moles-dud
Started the season like a house on fire then fell in a hole. Moles in the hole. He has played just crap. A big disappointment after promising so much early. I'm so upset with him, I'd like to kick him up the backside.

Seems like an irrational critique to me.

You should remember that when you point the finger .... there are three pointing back at you.

TRIPLE DUD

[bornadog]

But Stack has played over 50 games at VFL level against men. I don't understand why these games don't count. Yes AFL is a bit quicker but it is the same game. He is a full time footballer with access to an AFL clubs facilities, coaches, fitness staff etc. He is training with other professionals. He is not playing part-time in the country.

Does this also mean that if DFA had only managed 8 games by this stage of his career that you would have more confidence that he could become a decent player :confused::confused:

This seams to be SS's 21 game theory taken to the extreme.

I think the current injuries have given Stack his chance and it appears that he has blown it. The only thing that may extend his career is the large number of veterans who will most likely retire at the end of this year.

Can't agree at all on your and other posters assessment of Stack. Yes he jibbed it a couple of times, but he is a creative player and is still learning. So far in his 5 games he has had 12 inside 50's and 11 goals contributed, which is seventh on our list. (Goals Contributed is goal assists plus goals kicked).

He needs to gain experience and confidence.

[Before I Die]

You obviously don't watch much VFL if you think that.

You obviously don't have anything worthwhile to contribute if that is the breadth of your comment. Why don't you enlighten me on all the many and varied differences that reduces VFL experience to having zero value.


Yeah it probably does. You quite often see an improvement in young players from 15 games through to 50 and then further improvement after 50 games. Dylan probably hasn't improved as much as we would have hoped.

I don't think Addison will ever be a great player. Good, honest player, possibly eker, are more apt descriptions. My point is that to date, he has shown a lot more than Stack.


With players out Stack hasn't had much support form his more experienced team-mates. All of Gia, Higgins & Hahn have been poor over the past month with only Hall carrying the load.

I hope Stack makes it, but at the moment he is probably bottom of his draft class at the Dogs. If we were to delist anyone in addition to the retirees, who would go before him?

[soupman]

I hope Stack makes it, but at the moment he is probably bottom of his draft class at the Dogs. If we were to delist anyone in addition to the retirees, who would go before him?

Tim Callan probably. With guys like Tiller being his competitors. i don't think we'll need to de-list more than one or two players this year anyway. With Akermanis, Eagleton and Johnson all probably retiring we'll have just about enough changes.

This thread should also be about the players that haven't really come into the side yet, but yet could perform a role and contribute. Can anyone see an Easton Wood being a regular member of the side come finals?

[Sockeye Salmon]

Tim Callan probably. With guys like Tiller being his competitors. i don't think we'll need to de-list more than one or two players this year anyway. With Akermanis, Eagleton and Johnson all probably retiring we'll have just about enough changes.

This thread should also be about the players that haven't really come into the side yet, but yet could perform a role and contribute. Can anyone see an Easton Wood being a regular member of the side come finals?

I think Stack is safe but we need more than the retirees to go. Johnson and Eagleton are on the vets list so they don't count, Aker will go but Moles will be elevated so we're back to square one.

[soupman]

I think Stack is safe but we need more than the retirees to go. Johnson and Eagleton are on the vets list so they don't count, Aker will go but Moles will be elevated so we're back to square one.

Not really. Moles counts as a list change so Aker going does count. Callan is probably next inline and with GC and Richmond and Essendon all looking to be active in trade week you would assume at least a Stephen Tiller or potentially a Jarrod Harbrow moves on as well. There's three changes and we're done.

I also think Stack is safe because we'll make very few changes to our list over the next few years I think and Stack has shown glimpses, even though he looks like he could fall into the Giansiracusa boat of being labelled "soft" and "lazy".

[Sockeye Salmon]

Not really. Moles counts as a list change so Aker going does count. Callan is probably next inline and with GC and Richmond and Essendon all looking to be active in trade week you would assume at least a Stephen Tiller or potentially a Jarrod Harbrow moves on as well. There's three changes and we're done.

I also think Stack is safe because we'll make very few changes to our list over the next few years I think and Stack has shown glimpses, even though he looks like he could fall into the Giansiracusa boat of being labelled "soft" and "lazy".

I doubt we will make the minimum 3 changes. Moles, Wallis and Liberatore are obvious but I'm sure they will want another couple of picks as well.

Callan will be one and I'd be tapping Mitch on the shoulder as the other. I agree there's a pretty good chance we won't have a say in it and one or maybe even two will move along of their own choosing.

[FrediKanoute]

I doubt we will make the minimum 3 changes. Moles, Wallis and Liberatore are obvious but I'm sure they will want another couple of picks as well.

Callan will be one and I'd be tapping Mitch on the shoulder as the other. I agree there's a pretty good chance we won't have a say in it and one or maybe even two will move along of their own choosing.

Totally agree. There would be some guys on the list who would be not getting a regular game and are thinking that they may just get that regular game elsewhere. There would also be some guys who are going to lured by the mega-bucks on offer from GC and WS. Guys who would never manage to get anywhere near that with us will certainly consider a move.

[chef]

Tim Callan probably. With guys like Tiller being his competitors. i don't think we'll need to de-list more than one or two players this year anyway. With Akermanis, Eagleton and Johnson all probably retiring we'll have just about enough changes.

This thread should also be about the players that haven't really come into the side yet, but yet could perform a role and contribute. Can anyone see an Easton Wood being a regular member of the side come finals?

He might have a spot in defence next year if Harbrow leaves.

[Mantis]

You obviously don't have anything worthwhile to contribute if that is the breadth of your comment. Why don't you enlighten me on all the many and varied differences that reduces VFL experience to having zero value.

My main justification would be the pace of the game, skill level and size/ condition of the grounds. We are talking absolute chalk and cheese between VFL and AFL.

The worthwhile statement is a crock.


I don't think Addison will ever be a great player. Good, honest player, possibly eker, are more apt descriptions. My point is that to date, he has shown a lot more than Stack.

We are in a much better position to determine where Addison is at due to his extra experience playing AFL than Stack. At present Stack hasn't shown a great deal, but I wouldn't hang him on 8 games.


I hope Stack makes it, but at the moment he is probably bottom of his draft class at the Dogs. If we were to delist anyone in addition to the retirees, who would go before him?

Tiller and Callan would be 2 to I would look at before Stack.

[Hot_Doggies]

It's amazing the difference a few extra poor games makes. I have been saying delist/trade (GC17 maybe) Hahn for a long time.

If we could get a decent pick for Cross, i would make a hard call on him also.

[LostDoggy]

It's amazing the difference a few extra poor games makes. I have been saying delist/trade (GC17 maybe) Hahn for a long time.

If we could get a decent pick for Cross, i would make a hard call on him also.

CROSS...are you crazy? He is much loved by the supporters and players and i doubt very much he will be going anywhere!!

[Sockeye Salmon]

It's amazing the difference a few extra poor games makes. I have been saying delist/trade (GC17 maybe) Hahn for a long time.

If we could get a decent pick for Cross, i would make a hard call on him also.

You can't just trade out guys because it's convenient, it destroys the fabric of your club (good cliche, huh?)

How do you ask Jarrod Harbrow to turn his back on the big dollars from GC17 and in the same breath offload Daniel Cross to the best offer?

Mitch is a bit different. The way you handle it with Mitch would be to say, "we don't think you'll get a go next year, it might be best for your career if your agent starts looking around". Then you make sure he ends up where he wants to go, give him away if necessary.

Rather than weaken the group by shafting their mate, show them all how you care about their well-being and would do the right thing by them. It makes it a lot harder to walk away for cash.

Kevin Sheedy said the biggest mistake of his career was after winning the 84-85 premierships, he offloaded Steve Carey and Peter Bradbury. As players they weren't much chop but it let everyone else on the list know that the club didn't really give a bugger about them past what they could give on the ground.

Trading is the work of the devil.

[Bulldog Joe]

You can't just trade out guys because it's convenient, it destroys the fabric of your club (good cliche, huh?)

How do you ask Jarrod Harbrow to turn his back on the big dollars from GC17 and in the same breath offload Daniel Cross to the best offer?

Mitch is a bit different. The way you handle it with Mitch would be to say, "we don't think you'll get a go next year, it might be best for your career if your agent starts looking around". Then you make sure he ends up where he wants to go, give him away if necessary.

Rather than weaken the group by shafting their mate, show them all how you care about their well-being and would do the right thing by them. It makes it a lot harder to walk away for cash.

Kevin Sheedy said the biggest mistake of his career was after winning the 84-85 premierships, he offloaded Steve Carey and Peter Bradbury. As players they weren't much chop but it let everyone else on the list know that the club didn't really give a bugger about them past what they could give on the ground.

Trading is the work of the devil.

Magnificent Post SS

You do really need to look after the players who bring the group together.

[Mantis]

You do really need to look after the players who bring the group together.

You do, but in saying that we also need to strive for excellence and build a list that will continue to improve.

If they we don't at least hold our ground or improve on last years efforts we need to work out why and then determine the best course of action such that we can quickly rebound.

It is very early on to speculate on possible trades as I still believe we can salvage this season, but at some point we will and to that point the club needs to decide on the best way forward and that could mean making some tough calls.

Never say never.

[Mofra]

How do you ask Jarrod Harbrow to turn his back on the big dollars from GC17 and in the same breath offload Daniel Cross to the best offer?
Bingo. From what I've been told, Wallace was as good as a dead man walking form the moment he traded away Brad Wira.

[Mantis]

Bingo. From what I've been told, Wallace was as good as a dead man walking form the moment he traded away Brad Wira.

This post shows just how precious players that have represented our club are/ have become. (Not directed at you Mofra because I have heard the same thing)

A coach trades away a player who he feels isn't going to take the club forward, which is his job... improve the team and take them forward and the players have a sook because they have lost a mate... HTFU boys.

[EasternWest]

Mitch is a bit different. The way you handle it with Mitch would be to say, "we don't think you'll get a go next year, it might be best for your career if your agent starts looking around". Then you make sure he ends up where he wants to go, give him away if necessary.

Couldn't agree with this more. Mitch has given good service to our club and as it appears his time is up, we should make every effort to do the right thing by him when we move him on.

[Sockeye Salmon]

This post shows just how precious players that have represented our club are/ have become. (Not directed at you Mofra because I have heard the same thing)

A coach trades away a player who he feels isn't going to take the club forward, which is his job... improve the team and take them forward and the players have a sook because they have lost a mate... HTFU boys.

I'd HTFU all the way to whoever gives me the best deal.

Are we a footy CLUB or a business enterprise?

If we're a business enterprise with no heart, as a player, I'll work for whoever pays me the most (just like the rest of us out here earning a crust). I'll have no passion for the jumper and I'll certainly never risk getting or playing hurt (can't risk my future earning ability). Once my playing days are over you'll never see me at the place again (unless you pay) and don't use my image to market your company because it's my IP.

If we a business enterprise with no heart, as a supporter, I won't bother parting with my hard-earned cash for a membership to one organisation. If I want to be entertained by footballers 'll go to the best or most convenient game depending on the weather.

Our club does have a heart and we all care enormously about it and expect that the players do to.

Reality is that there comes a time when players need to be moved on, we just have to make sure we show the players enough respect at that time that those still playing want to give doing it for the club.

Giving a bloke the lemonade and sars before it's time because you got a better offer is the quickest way to destroy that passion for the club.

[Mofra]

This post shows just how precious players that have represented our club are/ have become. (Not directed at you Mofra because I have heard the same thing)

A coach trades away a player who he feels isn't going to take the club forward, which is his job... improve the team and take them forward and the players have a sook because they have lost a mate... HTFU boys.
Given he was Chris Grant's best mate, I can understand the angst of the playing group. In any schism, the players would have always taken Grant's side in this scenario.

One of the 9 principles of leadership (from my military days) was "morale is a force multiplier", and whilst just making the players happy isn't the sole reason to keep a player, the dynamic of the playing group should be a consideration when trading. The best player in the world wont be as effective if he's not a good cultural fit for the club.

[MrMahatma]

I think that's being a bit generous to Stack. He's still spent plenty of time in the system, and hasn't missed entire seasons due injury.

Hill is younger and lighter but is a fair way ahead of him, Everitt is a young tall, is younger and ahead of him, Grant is younger, taller, and has spent less time in the system and has had injury interrupted seasons in his past three years but is miles ahead.

Even DFA who is a similar age and has obvious limitations is ahead of Stack. I'm worried.
I agree. Stack shouldn't get any better treatment cause of thennumher of AFL games he's played. It's taken him 4 years to get in the team because he hasn't been good enough at VFL level. Now he's in the team it's clear he's not up to AFL level.

[LostDoggy]

I'd HTFU all the way to whoever gives me the best deal.

Are we a footy CLUB or a business enterprise?

If we're a business enterprise with no heart, as a player, I'll work for whoever pays me the most (just like the rest of us out here earning a crust). I'll have no passion for the jumper and I'll certainly never risk getting or playing hurt (can't risk my future earning ability). Once my playing days are over you'll never see me at the place again (unless you pay) and don't use my image to market your company because it's my IP.

If we a business enterprise with no heart, as a supporter, I won't bother parting with my hard-earned cash for a membership to one organisation. If I want to be entertained by footballers 'll go to the best or most convenient game depending on the weather.

Our club does have a heart and we all care enormously about it and expect that the players do to.

Reality is that there comes a time when players need to be moved on, we just have to make sure we show the players enough respect at that time that those still playing want to give doing it for the club.

Giving a bloke the lemonade and sars before it's time because you got a better offer is the quickest way to destroy that passion for the club.

^^ This.

If there wasn't a salary cap, and we were a rich club, we could do whatever we like. But there IS a salary cap, and we struggle to keep our stars as it is, the last thing we need is to breed a 'pragmatic' mentality with our playing group -- if it is clear that we don't give a crap about them, why would Coons or Griff not just take the money and move to the GC? You may as well when the only value is financial/tangible.

Israel Folou told GWS to f.o. when they suggested that he not go play Rugby Union in Europe before coming back for the 2012 AFL season. They couldn't compete with the money he was being offered, so they took it up the you-know-where instead of insisting that he spend the season actually learning how to play the sport and getting to know his future teammates. This is the kind of 'team' mentality you get when it all becomes about the dollars.

[Mantis]

I'd HTFU all the way to whoever gives me the best deal.

Are we a footy CLUB or a business enterprise?

If we're a business enterprise with no heart, as a player, I'll work for whoever pays me the most (just like the rest of us out here earning a crust). I'll have no passion for the jumper and I'll certainly never risk getting or playing hurt (can't risk my future earning ability). Once my playing days are over you'll never see me at the place again (unless you pay) and don't use my image to market your company because it's my IP.

If we a business enterprise with no heart, as a supporter, I won't bother parting with my hard-earned cash for a membership to one organisation. If I want to be entertained by footballers 'll go to the best or most convenient game depending on the weather.

Our club does have a heart and we all care enormously about it and expect that the players do to.

Reality is that there comes a time when players need to be moved on, we just have to make sure we show the players enough respect at that time that those still playing want to give doing it for the club.

Giving a bloke the lemonade and sars before it's time because you got a better offer is the quickest way to destroy that passion for the club.

While I do agree with many parts of that SS, my line of thinking is that we should be exhausting all idea's in our pursuit of a premiership and long term on-field success. I agree that the club needs to stay true to it's core values and trading players is the 'work of the devil' I still believe that if we need to make a call on an existing and well liked player for the benefit of our short & long terms plans and aspirations I wouldn't let emotions cloud such a decision.

Using an example of Cross (for no reason other than that his name was mentioned earlier), say come the end of the year we are still not premiers (and maybe further away than last year) and believe that although he is a 'heart and soul' type and would bleed for the jumper can he give anymore or take us any further? Perhaps we believe Reid or Ward could play a similiar role and perhaps add a little more do we look at offering up Cross such that we could add a different type of player or a high draft pick to our list which could help us now or in future years?

Look what I have posted is a hypothetical and hopefully soemthing we will not have to even think about, but 'I' am happy to contemplate such an idea, you and others may not and that's fine.

[Bulldog Revolution]

While I do agree with many parts of that SS, my line of thinking is that we should be exhausting all idea's in our pursuit of a premiership and long term on-field success. I agree that the club needs to stay true to it's core values and trading players is the 'work of the devil' I still believe that if we need to make a call on an existing and well liked player for the benefit of our short & long terms plans and aspirations I wouldn't let emotions cloud such a decision.

Using an example of Cross (for no reason other than that his name was mentioned earlier), say come the end of the year we are still not premiers (and maybe further away than last year) and believe that although he is a 'heart and soul' type and would bleed for the jumper can he give anymore or take us any further? Perhaps we believe Reid or Ward could play a similiar role and perhaps add a little more do we look at offering up Cross such that we could add a different type of player or a high draft pick to our list which could help us now or in future years?

Look what I have posted is a hypothetical and hopefully soemthing we will not have to even think about, but 'I' am happy to contemplate such an idea, you and others may not and that's fine.

Balancing that 'heart and soul' with doing everything that it takes is a difficult tightrope - and its one we expect the leaders of the footy club to walk.

Now I know it was a hypothetical and I've posted on it before, but I have never thought we would get a high enough pick for Cross to justify the loss of 'heart and soul'. I just think we'd be offered a second/third round pick and I dont see that as worth it.

For me there are not that many guys on AFL lists that genuinely will do everything they can to get better, and Cross does. A lot of blokes pay lip service to it, but Cross does it through action.

I've seen nothing from our last two drafts to suggest many of them are anywhere near as committed as I'd like them to be but thats an entirely different issue.

[Desipura]

I've seen nothing from our last two drafts to suggest many of them are anywhere near as committed as I'd like them to be but thats an entirely different issue.
I beg to differ, Roughead & Jones look like they will be very good long term players

[Sockeye Salmon]

While I do agree with many parts of that SS, my line of thinking is that we should be exhausting all idea's in our pursuit of a premiership and long term on-field success. I agree that the club needs to stay true to it's core values and trading players is the 'work of the devil' I still believe that if we need to make a call on an existing and well liked player for the benefit of our short & long terms plans and aspirations I wouldn't let emotions cloud such a decision.

Using an example of Cross (for no reason other than that his name was mentioned earlier), say come the end of the year we are still not premiers (and maybe further away than last year) and believe that although he is a 'heart and soul' type and would bleed for the jumper can he give anymore or take us any further? Perhaps we believe Reid or Ward could play a similiar role and perhaps add a little more do we look at offering up Cross such that we could add a different type of player or a high draft pick to our list which could help us now or in future years?

Look what I have posted is a hypothetical and hopefully soemthing we will not have to even think about, but 'I' am happy to contemplate such an idea, you and others may not and that's fine.

There's a difference between offloading someone and letting them know that their opportunities were going to be limited.

If we were to decide Reid was a better bet in Cross' role and we couldn't play both we tell Cross that this is the situation. Then if he decides to go somewhere else for the sake of his career you try to help him all you can to get where he wants.

[The Pie Man]

There's a difference between offloading someone and letting them know that their opportunities were going to be limited.

If we were to decide Reid was a better bet in Cross' role and we couldn't play both we tell Cross that this is the situation. Then if he decides to go somewhere else for the sake of his career you try to help him all you can to get where he wants.

Devil's advocate question

So we've told Cross (or player X) that his opportunities maybe limited and he won't be guaranteed a senior game next year - he then chooses to fight for his football future with the club.

Then club Y has a player that would be a short term solution for a hole in our list (and I'm thinking specifically a zippy forward) and would be open to the idea of a direct swap with player X - wouldn't the need of the group overule the want of the player to fight it out at his original club?

Great dicsussion too BTW guys

[Sockeye Salmon]

Devil's advocate question

So we've told Cross (or player X) that his opportunities maybe limited and he won't be guaranteed a senior game next year - he then chooses to fight for his football future with the club.

Then club Y has a player that would be a short term solution for a hole in our list (and I'm thinking specifically a zippy forward) and would be open to the idea of a direct swap with player X - wouldn't the need of the group overule the want of the player to fight it out at his original club?

Great dicsussion too BTW guys

Firstly, AFL rules say no-one can be traded against their will, so if he wants to stay, he stays (unless he is delisted).

You can tell him Reid is going to be preferred, but if you don't want to delist him and he doesn't want to go, he stays.

I'm not a big wrap for trading blokes in either unless you can pick them up at a bargain basement price (Hudson, Akermanis, Hall) or they are young and not getting a go where they are. Prising someone away from where he is wanted and happy costs a fortune and unless you have salary cap exceptions is fraught with danger.

[The Pie Man]

Firstly, AFL rules say no-one can be traded against their will, so if he wants to stay, he stays (unless he is delisted).

You can tell him Reid is going to be preferred, but if you don't want to delist him and he doesn't want to go, he stays.

I'm not a big wrap for trading blokes in either unless you can pick them up at a bargain basement price (Hudson, Akermanis, Hall) or they are young and not getting a go where they are. Prising someone away from where he is wanted and happy costs a fortune and unless you have salary cap exceptions is fraught with danger.

Good points - the player for player swap is a rarity anyway.

A player can be persuaded/encouraged to explore another opporunity if it was deemed suitable - example would be Bradshaw to Carlton last year...he said no in the end so he didn't go there...and then the implications of doing what you'd call the 'devils' work set in (Bradshaw has the poos and leaves with no compensation - no idea what it's done to their group but by all accounts he was popular)

I thought Collingwood did ok getting Medhurst in - Farmer was the 1st choice goal sneak, meaning a quality player wasn't getting a regular game....and Medhurst was obviously keen for an opportunity elsewhere