Playing with Caution - Whose Fault is that?

[bornadog]

In all of Rockets press conferences, we have heard that the players are playing without taking risks, or being too cautious. But whose fault is this? Is this a coaching thing? Is this the fault of the backline?

The backline has been very frugal this year with the second/third ( a few points in it) least points kicked against it, but is Lake and co too scared to take them on?

When was the last time Gilbee bounced the ball down the ground and ended up in the forward 50 and kicked a goal?

In the past few years under Eade we were known as the team that took the ball from end to end and kicked the most goals? Why aren't we doing this?

Why are we too conservative till its too late and we have to chase down 40 odd points?

We have definitely changed our style, for the worse.

[Mantis]

A good topic to discuss.

The main points I feel are:

* We don't have a lot of genuine ball carriers - Teams are clamping down on Gilbee & Harbrow from defence and with Hargrave injured/ out of form we don't have any other options to run the ball out from D50. Through the midfield we only really have Griffen, Cooney and Eagleton. Eagleton is struggling and the other two while getting their hands on the ball are not kicking the ball to advantage all that often. Moles has only been used sparingly, and hasn't yet shown if his kicking skills are good enough.

* Our kicking skills across the board are down. All players should be able to spot up free players, but we haven't been able to. These turnovers are killing our momentum and we are getting burnt on the rebound.

* We are trying to pay a risk free style (slow build up), but due poor kicking skills we are turning the ball over or not hitting targets, but I guess we are forced to because we don't have may line-breakers. Geelong don't have many 'risk-takers' either, but as a team their kicking skills are exceptional and they have plenty of players to present to the ball carrier, at the minute we don't.

* For the most part we have no real forward structure and not enough dangerous forwards. Hall is our only real forward who consistently presents to the ball carrier, but he is now having defenders blocking his space as we have become predictable. At other times we have no-one leading from the square which causes headaches in itself, and our options across half forward have been limited. It is a concern.

----

We have also been conservative at the selection table which I feel hasn't helped our cause.

[Ghost Dog]

1. Not enough options in the forward line. Putting Lake up there with Barry caused collingood stress.

2.Lack of running players who can take the man on. I agree with Mantis. Harbrow is about the only one who tries to beat a man by sidestepping and faking. Need players to work together as Geelong do and work it slowly through the defensive zone. Risky but you either have to work through it slowly or kick over it. Only two ways. IMO

[Doc26]

* We don't have a lot of genuine ball carriers - Teams are clamping down on Gilbee & Harbrow from defence and with Hargrave injured/ out of form we don't have any other options to run the ball out from D50.

Hargrave's loss this year whether by form or injury has been a significant gap as having an effective 3rd running defender has become a major point of difference b/w the contenders and those making up the numbers. We could do a lot worse than play Griff off half back more often until Hargrave comes good.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I'll add another one.

Every club has got better at clogging up sections of the ground and rather than giving the ball back we are trying to pick our way through it.

[Mantis]

I'll add another one.

Every club has got better at clogging up sections of the ground and rather than giving the ball back we are trying to pick our way through it.

But when there is solid pressure on the ball carrier we cannot due to our poor foot skills.

One main area of difference I have seen is at kick ins where teams are employing a half ground zone and we are struggling to get through it. We kick from side to side trying to look for a gap, but are struggling to find one. The only time we have all season was aganist North when we were able to go 'over the top' of the zone resulting in our players running into open goals on numerous occassions.

[Doc26]

I'll add another one.

Every club has got better at clogging up sections of the ground and rather than giving the ball back we are trying to pick our way through it.


But when there is solid pressure on the ball carrier we cannot due to our poor foot skills.

One main area of difference I have seen is at kick ins where teams are employing a half ground zone and we are struggling to get through it. We kick from side to side trying to look for a gap, but are struggling to find one. The only time we have all season was aganist North when we were able to go 'over the top' of the zone resulting in our players running into open goals on numerous occassions.

These are valid observations and it baffles me why Everitt wasn't included last week as he can offer a legitimate 'lookup' option if played off the wing or half back, especially whilst Hargrave is not an option.

[LostDoggy]

But when there is solid pressure on the ball carrier we cannot due to our poor foot skills.

One main area of difference I have seen is at kick ins where teams are employing a half ground zone and we are struggling to get through it. We kick from side to side trying to look for a gap, but are struggling to find one. The only time we have all season was aganist North when we were able to go 'over the top' of the zone resulting in our players running into open goals on numerous occassions.

Speaking from a soccer tactical point of view (since that's my area of knowledge) the key to being able to go through a zone is the concept of overloading, where the second striker (or number 9 in classical parlance) drops deep (comes towards his defenders) to offer an option. Because he is coming from BEHIND the zone and the zoning players can't see him he can time his run in between the spaces of the zone, and it also forces his defender to either come with him and leave lots of space in the forward area, or not follow him and give him an easy possession.

In footy, this is what essentially long-leading half-forwards are trying to do, but we are either:
a. taking too long to release the pass to the leading forward so allowing the easy spoil and turnover,
b. the half-forward is not leading hard enough, so we end up kicking to no one (see Higgins dinky kick around the corner, Harbrow's numerous turnovers in the middle of the ground etc. -- our centre half-forward should be contesting those passes, but Murph is injured, Grant is inexperienced, and Hahn is too slow),
c. the leads are only ever up towards the wings, or
d. we are falling down at half-back (as you've alluded to, Mantis, with Hargrave down) so can't get a free pass out. That's what Geelong's interminable handballing around half-back is for, to just get a player enough time to spot up the half-forward lead.

We need someone who can go 60 metres on the lead from deep in the forward line into the middle of the ground, timing his lead to get inside the zone, then turning around and kicking into the space that he's just left behind, where forwards can take marks going back with the flight of the ball. If the zone is high up the field there would be acres of space in the forward 50. But wait, that's exactly how we've been playing for the last two years, with Murph as the leading half-forward, and the two forwards usually running back into space being Johnno and Aker. It's no coincidence that our zone busting has been down with these three missing/injured/out of form.

If Hall plays as a roaming/false FF that leads hard into the middle of the ground (essentially an old CHF role, except that there would be no one in front of him), he can replicate Murph's role (and he can), he would leave a gigantic gap behind him in the forward 50. The question is if we have quick enough forwards to exploit this.

ps. by the way, this is also probably why we often look like we have no one in the forward 50. The idea is that the half forward/roaming full forward leads up the ground and leaves space behind him for others to lead back into, but Bazza sometimes gets sucked up the ground too early so the mids/half-backs lose the forward line point-of-reference that is crucial to knowing where/how to break the zone.

pps. Rose would also be a useful long-leading target (as would Little, actually). Definitely more value than Hahn at the moment. I don't really understand his role anymore.

[Mofra]

Top post Lantern.
Also highlights the importance of Grant in Murphy's absence, and Hahn's indifferent form being a comination of not just age, but his role in the team being diminished.

[bulldogsman]

Our work rate is poor. Watched the 4th quarter again yesterday, once we had enough numbers we could run the ball through the zone a lot better and skills were better also.

[LostDoggy]

Our work rate is poor. Watched the 4th quarter again yesterday, once we had enough numbers we could run the ball through the zone a lot better and skills were better also.

And of course that's the other way to bust a zone.

What has been so impressive about Ross Lyon in this past month is how he's changed St.Kilda's dominant playing style from one to the other so effectively -- St. Nick is the ultimate 60 yard leading CHF + FF machine, so Lyon could play the half-back line --> hard leading half-forward style very effectively (especially since Nick could then hold the ball up, hand it off, then run into the forward 50 himself, essentially playing both roles of hard leading CHF and marking with the flight of the ball FF.. the guy is a freak). Since his injury, though, and Kosi obviously not being up to the task, Lyon has had to retool the system, and in this last month we've seen a far more 'run the lines' type zone-busting model, where Montagna, Goddard et al have been used in a far more run-and-carry role. Even Milne and Shneider's starting positions are closer to the middle of the ground, so they can assist the mosquito fleet in running the ball forward. They switch between these styles even within games regularly, but this is definitely their 'plan B' game, that is now their 'plan A' out of necessity.

I hate St. Kilda for various reasons, but I'm not one of those who will attack Lyon for being defensive -- probably due to my soccer background I don't mind dour tactical battles, and also it would be boring (not to mention tactically naive) if all sides played the same way. He's certainly very tactically proactive and sets trends rather than follows them -- which has probably saved Zac Dawson's career.

[LostDoggy]

The players are probably to scared to take the game on, if they muck it up they're going to get an almighty spray from Rocket. But i guess they should be used to that..

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

A good topic to discuss.

The main points I feel are:

* We don't have a lot of genuine ball carriers - Teams are clamping down on Gilbee & Harbrow from defence and with Hargrave injured/ out of form we don't have any other options to run the ball out from D50. Through the midfield we only really have Griffen, Cooney and Eagleton. Eagleton is struggling and the other two while getting their hands on the ball are not kicking the ball to advantage all that often. Moles has only been used sparingly, and hasn't yet shown if his kicking skills are good enough.

* Our kicking skills across the board are down. All players should be able to spot up free players, but we haven't been able to. These turnovers are killing our momentum and we are getting burnt on the rebound.

* We are trying to pay a risk free style (slow build up), but due poor kicking skills we are turning the ball over or not hitting targets, but I guess we are forced to because we don't have may line-breakers. Geelong don't have many 'risk-takers' either, but as a team their kicking skills are exceptional and they have plenty of players to present to the ball carrier, at the minute we don't.

* For the most part we have no real forward structure and not enough dangerous forwards. Hall is our only real forward who consistently presents to the ball carrier, but he is now having defenders blocking his space as we have become predictable. At other times we have no-one leading from the square which causes headaches in itself, and our options across half forward have been limited. It is a concern.

----

We have also been conservative at the selection table which I feel hasn't helped our cause.

Good points made here. The arrival of Barry Hall unfortunately has created a one dimensional forward line, which changed dramatically when Lake went forward on Sunday. The poor form of Hahn and Giansircusa and loss of Murphy and Johnson has only compounded the problem. Grant has been a revelation and along with Hall has been our only reliable forwards. If you were to go through the 22 players we have really only had 12 solid performers all year, hence the major reason why we have struggled. The return of Murphy, Hargrave, Ward,Higgins Akermanis and hopefully Johnno will eventually correct that, but at the moment too much is being left to too few.

[Cyberdoggie]

We are also not as quick as we used to, or that the other teams have got quicker and apply more pressure.

When your confidence is down you don't take risks because they generally don't come off.

No one wants to stuff up.

[Sockeye Salmon]

The players are probably to scared to take the game on, if they muck it up they're going to get an almighty spray from Rocket. But i guess they should be used to that..

They won't get half the spray from Rocket that they'll get here from WOOF.

[bornadog]

We are also not as quick as we used to, or that the other teams have got quicker and apply more pressure.

When your confidence is down you don't take risks because they generally don't come off.

No one wants to stuff up.

Its not just quickness of players, but quick movement of the ball.

[LostDoggy]

But wait, that's exactly how we've been playing for the last two years, with Murph as the leading half-forward, and the two forwards usually running back into space being Johnno and Aker. It's no coincidence that our zone busting has been down with these three missing/injured/out of form.



Nailed it - totally agree and it's what I said on another thread - perhaps also add Higgins' injury which has hampered us in the forward line as well. How often did we see him (fit) floating down the forward line to pinch a mark and kick a goal?