The importance of the game against the Blues?

[GVGjr]

Whilst we are all still getting over the loss to the Hawks I was wondering how people view this game against the Blues next week?
To me it's just about the season defining game especially after the loss to the Hawks and the Blues are a side we seem to have struggled against.

The simple question I pose is that could we be still regarded as a serious contender if we were to lose to Carlton next week?

[Topdog]

Yeah season defining for sure IMO. We loses it and suddenly we will be 7th and one would thinik the confidence at the club would be very low.

Plus it's Round 15, we are running out of time to find form.

[angelopetraglia]

Sorry for the negativity. Unfortunately I thought last night's game was the season defining game.

Carlton have had the wood on us in recent times. But who knows what will happen? They have been able to defeat us when they have been rubbish, I don't like our chances but anything could happen with this group.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Agree with angelopetraglia the Hawks was the season defining game. We only fell a little short an
d I hope the boys don't drop their heads.

My concern is that the Blues get themselves up for our games and last time they ran us off our feet, The MC need to add pace to our side against the blues as they have a game that was ours only 3 years ago. They have pushed the best sides this year with the run from 1/2 back and gun midfield.

If we don't win this one then we have no hope of betting Fremantle, Dare I say it the bloody NAB cup hoodoo bites again.

[Bulldog Revolution]

If we lose to Carlton we should forget the season and get games into the kids

And this might mean making some tough calls on older players

[Grantysghost]

Agree with the others, last nights game was season defining. Big stage, Friday night, week off, best team of the year, good opposition..... I would think we need to win all remaining home and away games from here to grab a top four spot.

[The Pie Man]

The Carlton game is now one of a few 50-50 games remaining. I can honestly see us winning seven of our 8 games (Geelong being the likely loss) but that still maybe one game away from Freo in fourth.

Last night was the top 4 defining game - we will need Freo to fall over in a few games they're not expected to to make it (which isn't beyond the realms of possibility)

Hawthorn will be interesting to watch over the next month - tough run, but they look capable all of a sudden in taking that on...and we all know what the core of that group is capable of.

So for me, next week is about consolidating fifth, which if we hold that to seasons end, it could very well mean a home final against Sydney. That could result in a semi final away in Perth. If Freo do finish 4th and lose to Geelong (or whoever's on top) it could be better finishing 6/7 and playing in Melbourne the second week.

This year's got an 09 GF replay written all over it

[DOG GOD]

Top 4 is GONE!!!! Last nights game was THE defining one for mine as well and we lost. Now we are back with the pack and the aging legs and slowness of our fwd line is coming to the fore unfortunately. I dont rate the hawks other than a few players and rate their defense as sub standard but it was enough for our poor fwd structure last night.

I expect the Blues to run us off our feet next week. We have some very tough games coming up and IF we make the 8, then yes we will be making up the numbers.

[Doc26]

Our forward line continues to be the scapegoat of our poor performances. Yes there are weaknessess there and probably no more than Mitch being out of form and looking too slow but there are as many if not more issues with our midfield. Racking up possessions means little when our efficiency in getting it into the forward fifty continues to be so poor. We have a wonderful #1 Ruck in Hudson and yet time and time again it is the opposition midfield that wins an efficient clearing disposal. Last night highlighted this ongoing issue again with Hawthorn's ruck stocks virtually depleted yet our midfield efficiency stats barely sat at 60%. What chance are our forwards being given with such poor use of the ball getting it in there ? This was not unique to last night but has been a trend of our season. Many of our so called best players are also our worst when it comes to their use of the ball.

[FlightoftheCallanWards]

So for me, next week is about consolidating fifth, which if we hold that to seasons end, it could very well mean a home final against Sydney. That could result in a semi final away in Perth. If Freo do finish 4th and lose to Geelong (or whoever's on top) it could be better finishing 6/7 and playing in Melbourne the second week.

This year's got an 09 GF replay written all over it

As important as Top 4 is I wouldnt mind that result for 4th place. Would back us in against Sydney and Freo are beatable even in WA. Obviously we still have to at least hold onto 5th as the chances of 4th are looking slimmer and slimmer.

[EasternWest]

If we lose to Carlton we should forget the season and get games into the kids

And this might mean making some tough calls on older players

This.

[BulldogBelle]

I too think that last night was the 'season definer'. Why? Because as of last night's loss we are yet to prove to the football world (and ourselves) that we have the mental fortitude to beat the top teams in the competition.

Losses to Collingwood (x2), StKilda and now the Hawks, leaves us open to criticism that we haven't beaten any teams of substance this year. I (probably like most here) have kept faith through those losses and thought that we were in winning positions in most of those games and that when it came to the crunch (in finals) that we would be able to turn it on and beat these sides...

Now I haven't completely lost faith that we could pull out our best form in September (in fact, that's exactly what I want), but history would suggest that you need to have your shit together at this time of year to be a red hot chance at a flag.

Even if we beat Carlton next week, and I think we will, it won't make me feel any more bullish about our September chances simply because there remains an open question in my mind about our mental ability to will ourselves to win close games with the other top sides.

On a slight tangent to my point above, Judd,Hodge, Riewoldt, Ablett (and a couple others at Geelong) can stand up for their sides when they are needed, sometimes winning games on their own. We don't have that type of player. We have a few that undoubtedly have that level of talent, but they can't deliver (Coon/Griff/Missy). My question is what has to happen to these guys so that they can become that type of player for us??

[EasternWest]

On a slight tangent to my point above, Judd,Hodge, Riewoldt, Ablett (and a couple others at Geelong) can stand up for their sides when they are needed, sometimes winning games on their own. We don't have that type of player. We have a few that undoubtedly have that level of talent, but they can't deliver (Coon/Griff/Missy). My question is what has to happen to these guys so that they can become that type of player for us??

This is an excellent question. Who is our gut busting matchwinner?

[Grantysghost]

This is an excellent question. Who is our gut busting matchwinner?

Should be Cooney or Griffen as they have the pace, skill and body strength and appear as real match winners. Unfortunately neither has the will, mental strength, work rate that a Hodge, Chapman, Hayes has. Griffen's meek capitulation when confronted with what I consider to be average tags in Bateman and especailly Ellis makes me wonder if he will ever grab a big game by the throat. Coons has been better, but not up to the standard of those mentioned above.

Cal Ward maybe most likely, 2 or 3 years away from consistently busting it open though.

[AndrewP6]

The simple question I pose is that could we be still regarded as a serious contender if we were to lose to Carlton next week?

Simple question, simple answer - no.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Should be Cooney or Griffen as they have the pace, skill and body strength and appear as real match winners. Unfortunately neither has the will, mental strength, work rate that a Hodge, Chapman, Hayes has. Griffen's meek capitulation when confronted with what I consider to be average tags in Bateman and especailly Ellis makes me wonder if he will ever grab a big game by the throat. Coons has been better, but not up to the standard of those mentioned above.

Cal Ward maybe most likely, 2 or 3 years away from consistently busting it open though.

I think we need to keep some perspective here as our guys are a little younger than the "match winners" named. They have all had interrupted pre seasons and I'm sure in the next year or two they will be a force within the AFL.

Agree if the comments on the tags but that is something they will be working on, Coons get a tag every week and that allows the like of Boyd, Cross, Gia and co to be freed up a little.

For me its still about the forward entry and the kicking at goal. This has been the reason we have lost games this year.

[lemmon]

This is an excellent question. Who is our gut busting matchwinner?

Ive felt more and more that our game winner is Lake, he did it for us against the Dees. Unfortunately there isn't much you can do from full back.

On the main point of the thread, the Hawks and before them the Pies were our season defining games. Top four is gone.

[FlightoftheCallanWards]

Top four seems to be gone. If we win our next 3 though chances are we will only be 1 game behind Freo who could drop a very winnable game. If last night's game can spark something into the players we should win 7 out of our last 8 (Geelong being the loss) and that may just be enough to still steal 4th. A long shot yes but I'm gonna go with the cliche and take it one week at a time which means next week is very very important. Especially considering Dad's an avid Bluebagger. The last couple of times havent been very enjoyable...

[FlightoftheCallanWards]

For me its still about the forward entry and the kicking at goal. This has been the reason we have lost games this year.

Yep agree. That 3rd quarter with the entry into 50 was a killer. Just playing on and bombing to a sea of Hawks. Then came the innacuracy at goal in the 4th. I believe we went from 7.1 to finishing with 11.10. Not good enough :mad:

[anfo27]

Our forward line continues to be the scapegoat of our poor performances. Yes there are weaknessess there and probably no more than Mitch being out of form and looking too slow but there are as many if not more issues with our midfield. Racking up possessions means little when our efficiency in getting it into the forward fifty continues to be so poor. We have a wonderful #1 Ruck in Hudson and yet time and time again it is the opposition midfield that wins an efficient clearing disposal. Last night highlighted this ongoing issue again with Hawthorn's ruck stocks virtually depleted yet our midfield efficiency stats barely sat at 60%. What chance are our forwards being given with such poor use of the ball getting it in there ? This was not unique to last night but has been a trend of our season. Many of our so called best players are also our worst when it comes to their use of the ball.

Doc i just about agree with every single post you have posted of WOOF. I enjoy reading your posts and always have similar views.

[LostDoggy]

Last night was to define our top 4 prospects. Next week will be to stay alive in the 8. If lose that, say goodbye to the season imo

[anfo27]

I have to agree with most posters here in that last night was the defining game. I know we all rate our side and think we can still do something this year but how on earth can we be seen to be a serious contender when we continue to lose against any side that resembles a finals outfit.

We might rate ourselves but nobody else will.

[LostDoggy]

People who don't barrack for us still rate us. Excuse is we are still finding our form, which is fine to use. But we are now well into the second half of the season, and this form is still yet to be found.

[mjp]

Top four seems to be gone.

I don't see this. We play Freo in a couple of weeks...as long as we win that we are only ONE game out.

I was wrapped with last night. Hawthorn are in ripping form - we lost by a kick and had we got over the line we would be lauding the players courage and commitment to the contest.

Sure, we do need some more class and finishing ability in the side - I know they are much maligned and criticised but Hill is still second on our goal-kicking list and he would have helped us last night. And there is always Aker and his ability to kick the ball - I personally believe he was playing injured and expect a return to his 2009 form in the next month...that was a very good player and last nights game was the sort of contest we got him for.

Shame for Reid with his shoulders but I have faith in Moles to step in - likewise I have faith in Roughead covering for Minson...

I guess next week is a must win game, but even had we won last night we wouldn't have been in the top 4. To me it was our best performance of the season in possibly the best game of the season...we still had a couple of passengers (usual suspects) but we are moving forward.

[Mofra]

Sorry for the negativity. Unfortunately I thought last night's game was the season defining game.
Agree in ladder terms. The rest of the year determines where we drift in the 5-8 range now.

I am concerned about our ability to beat the best teams - we had the Saints on toast and lost by 3 points as well. We know we can compete with them in all other aspects, but I'm worried about any psychological baggage we will carry into the finals.

Who was the last team to make the grand final that didn't get a week off during the final series?

[Grantysghost]

Who was the last team to make the grand final that didn't get a week off during the final series?


Crows in 98 lost their first final to Melbourne, then beat Swans at SCG, then beat us in Prelim, then beat Kangas in GF.

Might be the last time? Someone correct me.

[LostDoggy]

I don't see this. We play Freo in a couple of weeks...as long as we win that we are only ONE game out.

I was wrapped with last night. Hawthorn are in ripping form - we lost by a kick and had we got over the line we would be lauding the players courage and commitment to the contest.

Sure, we do need some more class and finishing ability in the side - I know they are much maligned and criticised but Hill is still second on our goal-kicking list and he would have helped us last night. And there is always Aker and his ability to kick the ball - I personally believe he was playing injured and expect a return to his 2009 form in the next month...that was a very good player and last nights game was the sort of contest we got him for.

Shame for Reid with his shoulders but I have faith in Moles to step in - likewise I have faith in Roughead covering for Minson...

I guess next week is a must win game, but even had we won last night we wouldn't have been in the top 4. To me it was our best performance of the season in possibly the best game of the season...we still had a couple of passengers (usual suspects) but we are moving forward.

MJP I like the positive note of your post - and I agree with most of it. However, I think top 4 is probably lost now.

[Pickenitup]

Also in 97 crows went through for 4 weeks so it can be done also in 2007 Pies lost prelim to CATS by 5 points and if they got through to the granny would have beat Port.
I still have faith that we can make a Prelim from 5th and from there its a lottery

[The Pie Man]

Who was the last team to make the grand final that didn't get a week off during the final series?



Crows in 98 lost their first final to Melbourne, then beat Swans at SCG, then beat us in Prelim, then beat Kangas in GF.

Might be the last time? Someone correct me.

Eagles in 2006, also with the double chance - lost to Sydney in Perth, killed us, then beat Adelaide to get to another classic GF with Sydney. I can't recall a team playing the full finals month and being premier without a double chance, which is the challenge teams 5-8 face

This has no doubt been done to death elsewhere on the forum, but the Crows did not deserve to still be in the finals race after losing to Melbourne in 98, and for memory this was the catalyst to change from 1 v 8 etc with the two lowest placed losing teams getting a double chance format to the 1 v 4, 5 v 8 etc format

[mjp]

MJP I like the positive note of your post - and I agree with most of it. However, I think top 4 is probably lost now.

Freo in some trouble against Port...

[Raw Toast]

I don't see this. We play Freo in a couple of weeks...as long as we win that we are only ONE game out.

I was wrapped with last night. Hawthorn are in ripping form - we lost by a kick and had we got over the line we would be lauding the players courage and commitment to the contest.

Sure, we do need some more class and finishing ability in the side - I know they are much maligned and criticised but Hill is still second on our goal-kicking list and he would have helped us last night. And there is always Aker and his ability to kick the ball - I personally believe he was playing injured and expect a return to his 2009 form in the next month...that was a very good player and last nights game was the sort of contest we got him for.

Shame for Reid with his shoulders but I have faith in Moles to step in - likewise I have faith in Roughead covering for Minson...

I guess next week is a must win game, but even had we won last night we wouldn't have been in the top 4. To me it was our best performance of the season in possibly the best game of the season...we still had a couple of passengers (usual suspects) but we are moving forward.

Agreed Mike. I was gutted with the loss, but it was an excellent game and we should've won.

One thing that concerns me is our ability to adjust mid-game, or lack thereof. Seemed to me from the tv that we were kicking the ball in fairly long to our forwards, as if over a zone, when actually if we'd 'taken the space' (to coin a phrase ;)), and used our running numbers, we could've set up numerous open goals. We were running all over them in the 3rd quarter, just didn't choose good options going forward.

We're not that far away from being a dominant force, and if we can get our key players right for the run home we're still in with a very big chance.

[FlightoftheCallanWards]

I don't see this. We play Freo in a couple of weeks...as long as we win that we are only ONE game out.

I was wrapped with last night. Hawthorn are in ripping form - we lost by a kick and had we got over the line we would be lauding the players courage and commitment to the contest.

Sure, we do need some more class and finishing ability in the side - I know they are much maligned and criticised but Hill is still second on our goal-kicking list and he would have helped us last night. And there is always Aker and his ability to kick the ball - I personally believe he was playing injured and expect a return to his 2009 form in the next month...that was a very good player and last nights game was the sort of contest we got him for.

Shame for Reid with his shoulders but I have faith in Moles to step in - likewise I have faith in Roughead covering for Minson...

I guess next week is a must win game, but even had we won last night we wouldn't have been in the top 4. To me it was our best performance of the season in possibly the best game of the season...we still had a couple of passengers (usual suspects) but we are moving forward.

I agree with that and further made mention of the possibility of only being one game behind Freo. Just reckon it's an outside shot..

Also agree with the rest of your post. We just lost a game against a fellow top 4 contender that we deserved to win. I know its extremely heartbreaking but we have shown we can match it with Hawthorn and St Kilda this year.

[LostDoggy]

We've lost 1 out of the 4 games we needed to win in the second half of the year. We now must beat Blues, Freo and Cats to be any chance for top 4. Drop any of these and any of the other games against lower sides will see us have no chance for top 4 and fight for a top 8 spot

[Ghost Dog]

The simple question I pose is that could we be still regarded as a serious contender if we were to lose to Carlton next week?



Must win game for Bulldogs in terms of confidence. It will be no easy game. In April they knocked off the Cats and they are coming off a win. I would say no, if we cannot beat Carlton then it is hard to see us taking on an team like Geelong with Finals experience and a much classier forward structure than Carlton's "Mosquito Fleet".

[Ghost Dog]

I don't see this. We play Freo in a couple of weeks...as long as we win that we are only ONE game out.

I was wrapped with last night. Hawthorn are in ripping form - we lost by a kick and had we got over the line we would be lauding the players courage and commitment to the contest.

Sure, we do need some more class and finishing ability in the side - I know they are much maligned and criticised but Hill is still second on our goal-kicking list and he would have helped us last night. And there is always Aker and his ability to kick the ball - I personally believe he was playing injured and expect a return to his 2009 form in the next month...that was a very good player and last nights game was the sort of contest we got him for.

Shame for Reid with his shoulders but I have faith in Moles to step in - likewise I have faith in Roughead covering for Minson...

I guess next week is a must win game, but even had we won last night we wouldn't have been in the top 4. To me it was our best performance of the season in possibly the best game of the season...we still had a couple of passengers (usual suspects) but we are moving forward.

Good post. Enjoyed reading that

[Remi Moses]

I too think that last night was the 'season definer'. Why? Because as of last night's loss we are yet to prove to the football world (and ourselves) that we have the mental fortitude to beat the top teams in the competition.

Losses to Collingwood (x2), StKilda and now the Hawks, leaves us open to criticism that we haven't beaten any teams of substance this year. I (probably like most here) have kept faith through those losses and thought that we were in winning positions in most of those games and that when it came to the crunch (in finals) that we would be able to turn it on and beat these sides...

Now I haven't completely lost faith that we could pull out our best form in September (in fact, that's exactly what I want), but history would suggest that you need to have your shit together at this time of year to be a red hot chance at a flag.

Even if we beat Carlton next week, and I think we will, it won't make me feel any more bullish about our September chances simply because there remains an open question in my mind about our mental ability to will ourselves to win close games with the other top sides.

On a slight tangent to my point above, Judd,Hodge, Riewoldt, Ablett (and a couple others at Geelong) can stand up for their sides when they are needed, sometimes winning games on their own. We don't have that type of player. We have a few that undoubtedly have that level of talent, but they can't deliver (Coon/Griff/Missy). My question is what has to happen to these guys so that they can become that type of player for us??

Post of the season I was thinking exactly the same thing just haven't got The X Player to just will us over the line

[Remi Moses]

Dare I say it the shockers have a possible tough match against Dare I say it the Tigers!!:eek:

[Pickenitup]

I think The Tigers are a massive chance with the dockers injuries lets all barrack for the Tigers on Sat Nite

[LostDoggy]

I was barracking for them today!

[BulldogBelle]

A must win game for us this week against Carlton, Top 4 is starting to look unreachable we would have to rely on teams above to go into a losing streak. Losing a couple of close matches against St Kilda and now Hawthorn hasn't helped.

[Sedat]

On the surface it was a very honest and committed effort. But that would also over-rate Hawthorn's overall 22-man personnel (they have a very fair sprinkling of spuds to go with their stars) and also give our players a get-out clause for the once again dreadfully wasteful delivery into forward 50. This was the first game I've seen back in the country since the Essendon game and I thought our butchering of the hard-won contested ball going into forward 50 was a mirror image of the Bombers clash. Also it was clear that, once the game tightened up after our first 8 minutes of domination in the last qtr came up short on the scoreboard, it was going to be Hawthorn's star-power that would make pivotal contribution for the remainder of the match. Hodge, Mitchell, Franklin and Rioli all made telling offensive and defensive contributions that our leaders just did not match when the game was in the balance. And once again we have fallen short in a close finish against a good opponent, which screams to me that we don't have absolute match-winners at the death or we are psychologically unable to think our way through decision-making to ensure we end up on the right side of the ledger in such tight finishes.

I was certainly happy with the effort and intent of the players (smashing the Hawks at the contested ball is testament to our effort in the clinches) but I'm not happy with such repeatedly wasteful kicking efficiency that is killing all our hard-won gains in at the contests, nor am I happy with the fact that we don't appear to possess senior players that take charge in tight matches and simply do what they need to do to will the team over the line.

[LostDoggy]

I hate thinking that the game against the Blues is our most important. If we lose, the next game will be important too. What I'm trying to say is all 22 games are equally important. If we had beat the Hawks would the Carlton game not be as important? I think we have really stuffed our chances of a top 4 finish. How many teams win a flag from outside the top 4? Other than that, we haven't beaten any quality opposition this year so what makes us all think that we are suddenly going to turn on the switch in a cut throat pressure final? The truth is the team's form has been scratchy all year and we haven't been able to get it all together.

[stefoid]

I dont think its very often you can point at one player and say he lost us the game - its generally unfair, but this week, what can you say about Griffens game where he collected 19 disposals and had 13 turnovers? he won the game for the hawks.

[Mantis]

I dont think its very often you can point at one player and say he lost us the game - its generally unfair, but this week, what can you say about Griffens game where he collected 19 disposals and had 13 turnovers? he won the game for the hawks.

How is that comment relevant to this thread?

[Ozza]

Its pretty hard to say what moments in a season are 'season-defining' until the season is over.

Round 1 was big and we blew it,
St.Kilda game was big and we totally blew it,
Second time around v Collingwood we blew it,
The Essendon game was a disaster;
and the Hawthorn game - well everyone is saying it was a great game and we had a dip etc... We executed poorly when the pressure was on - so how can we expect to do anything of substance in the finals. We haven't beaten anyone this year - we have yet to have a really good win.

This weeks game against Carlton is of course 'must win' as they all are now. But I think we are just scrambling now anyway.

[LostDoggy]

I think this will be a very important game and one we could definately lose. If we win we cement 5th for a while longer and still have a faint sniff at 4th. If we lose then the sniff is snuffed and even a 7th, 8th, 9th placed finish becomes a distinct possibility.
We better be switched on or we could be in trouble, but if we play like we did Friday night we will soundly beat the blues.

[choconmientay]

For me ... it is really important to win this game. It is a MUST WIN game! ... otherwise how can I get through the Monday after at the office surrounded by Blue fans :(

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Firstly, if the Hawthorn game was our best performance of the year we're in bigger trouble than I originally thought. Nobody can dispute the side's intensity, but the game is about distributing the ball effectively by both foot and hand. We failed miserably in both aspects, which is the sole reason we lost the game. Effort is fine - but if you can't hit a target and/or make the right decision, you've played crap. Endeavour only counts for so much - especially considering the position we're in and the importance of that game.

This week's game will be interesting. I think we'll struggle because of a few reasons. One, games v Hawthorn can be hard to recover from. After our earlier clash this year we got belted by Brisbane and looked very lethargic in the second half. Last week's game was very tough again and although we've got a long break, I'm still not convinced we'll be running on top of the ground in the last quarter. Second, we really struggle to contain Carlton's spread from a contest. They move the ball really well and with the trio of Betts, Yarran and Garlett pushing up the ground and running back to goal, we'll find it difficult to run both ways.

Above all else, our skill level is pathetic. If we turn it over against Carlton, we'll be slaughtered with their quick ball movement and the way they spot up/bring other players into the game. If we are able to stiffle their run, make them move sideways through weight of numbers and pressure - we're in with a chance. To do that, we need to be much sharper by mind, foot and hand though.

Obviously it's a game we can win, but we'd need a lot of things to go right. If we play like we have so far this year, we'll lose and our season will be gone with it.

[mjp]

Firstly, if the Hawthorn game was our best performance of the year we're in bigger trouble than I originally thought. Nobody can dispute the side's intensity, but the game is about distributing the ball effectively by both foot and hand. We failed miserably in both aspects, which is the sole reason we lost the game. Effort is fine - but if you can't hit a target and/or make the right decision, you've played crap. Endeavour only counts for so much - especially considering the position we're in and the importance of that game.

1/.What was our best performance then? Saints game (another loss - when we spent the night kicking sideways refusing to take the game on)? What else?

2/.We lost for a number of reasons - our ball use is one of them.

3/.Agree that endeavor only counts for so much, but you can't have it both ways. Two years back we were all up in arms because we were getting smashed at clearances and that was the problem, then it was the lack of tall defenders then the lack of tall forwards...we have ticked those things off one by one - yet still the magic formula eludes us.

Agree you need to hit targets by foot, but whilst we are all screaming about this our second leading goal-kicker was dropped (with universal approval on this board as an aside) because he isn't hard at it. From the night, Higgins is being heavily criticised based on lack of commitment/effort...what is it to be?

We did play well against Hawthorn - who will beat Geelong this week, just watch - and if we maintain our attack on the contest and defensive running we will beat Carlton.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

1/.What was our best performance then? Saints game (another loss - when we spent the night kicking sideways refusing to take the game on)? What else?

Not a lot to choose from but I'd rate the Sydney performance better. They weren't great (and are even worse now) but we used the ball better than we had for most of this year. Effort's been there most of this year, the skills and decision making haven't. The Hawks game in Round 3 was better than last week's too.


2/.We lost for a number of reasons - our ball use is one of them.

We beat them in every statistic bar tackles and that's primarily because we were first to the ball. We just couldn't use it going into our F50 and missed critical shots at goal in the process. IMO our ball use was the only reason we lost it.


3/.Agree that endeavor only counts for so much, but you can't have it both ways. Two years back we were all up in arms because we were getting smashed at clearances and that was the problem, then it was the lack of tall defenders then the lack of tall forwards...we have ticked those things off one by one - yet still the magic formula eludes us.

We've been OK in the clearances for a couple of seasons now. I don't think anyone has questioned our endeavour since 2007. Our skills have been pretty good in the last two seasons. Why have they dropped off so much? Obviously Higgins, Ward, Johnson and Aker have been injured but the likes of Cooney, Griffen and Boyd have gone backwards. Harbrow has been trying to do too much with the ball in hand all year. That's just to name a few.

The one thing we were apparently missing from last year was a bid bodied FF. Hall wasn't supposed to be the 'answer' but he was supposed to be the missing link in an otherwise well oiled chain. We can't control injuries and alike, but the fact that we're one of the worst sides for turnovers is alarming.


From the night, Higgins is being heavily criticised based on lack of commitment/effort...what is it to be?

I didn't have a problem with Higgins' commitment on Friday Night, but his disposal and decision making was beyond awful. He deserves to be criticised for mistakes like the one he made in the last quarter. It was a certain, easy goal - at least it should of been. If his groin/ankle isn't right - he shouldn't play. There's no way Higgins is 100% fit. His efficiency was something like 25% by foot v Essendon and 40% v Hawthorn. Scratch endeavour, how will we ever beat quality sides with statistics like that?


We did play well against Hawthorn - who will beat Geelong this week, just watch - and if we maintain our attack on the contest and defensive running we will beat Carlton.

No doubt Hawthorn are in good form but I think we're forgetting their bottom four-five are ordinary. They are getting the most out of their top six-seven players at the moment. I want to know why we can't, and how to address it.

FWIW I think Geelong will cover them by 4-5 goals.

[Ghost Dog]

I hate thinking that the game against the Blues is our most important. If we lose, the next game will be important too. What I'm trying to say is all 22 games are equally important. If we had beat the Hawks would the Carlton game not be as important? I think we have really stuffed our chances of a top 4 finish. How many teams win a flag from outside the top 4? Other than that, we haven't beaten any quality opposition this year so what makes us all think that we are suddenly going to turn on the switch in a cut throat pressure final? The truth is the team's form has been scratchy all year and we haven't been able to get it all together.


"The fact that of the past 40 preliminary finalists, just two have come from beyond the top four, tends to suggest the Bulldogs simply aren't going to play a major role in the September action." ( The age 2010 )

We are statistically out of the race I guess. Needs a minor miracle for us. That week off is really vital. Still, what can you do but move forward. I agree with other posters, we are scrambling and truly are the underdogs. Go dogs!

Ref

Conolly, R 2010 " Danger signs everywhere for not-so-slick Bulldogs", http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/danger-signs-everywhere-for-notsoslick-bulldogs-20100704-zvsr.html

[mjp]

Not a lot to choose from but I'd rate the Sydney performance better. They weren't great (and are even worse now) but we used the ball better than we had for most of this year. Effort's been there most of this year, the skills and decision making haven't. The Hawks game in Round 3 was better than last week's too.


Hawks are a far better team now than in R3. Sydney were in a flat spot when we smacked them...the only games this year I rate are the two I mentioned - hard-fought games against top sides.



We beat them in every statistic bar tackles and that's primarily because we were first to the ball. We just couldn't use it going into our F50 and missed critical shots at goal in the process. IMO our ball use was the only reason we lost it.


Hawthorn had too many shots on goal from close in and inside the corridor - this helped their goal front efficiency. I thought our defenders did a good job on the whole, but the percentage of easy goals kicked by the Hawks was far too high...to me, this cost us the game. Only Franklin's last one (off the top of my head) was a really telling goal from a difficult spot.



We've been OK in the clearances for a couple of seasons now. I don't think anyone has questioned our endeavour since 2007. Our skills have been pretty good in the last two seasons. Why have they dropped off so much? Obviously Higgins, Ward, Johnson and Aker have been injured but the likes of Cooney, Griffen and Boyd have gone backwards. Harbrow has been trying to do too much with the ball in hand all year. That's just to name a few.

Has anyone considered that fact that winning clearances is a detriment to kicking efficiency as it leads to possessions under pressure? The clearance stats as they are today are fatally flawed and until they correctly represent clearances under pressure vs easy outs they will remain useless.

Add to this that when players - Griffen and Harbrow are good examples - continually try to take on the tackler (as they are instructed to do) they create additional pressure on EVERY possession they have...tacklers know they will hold on to the ball and will go at the body every time. They react to this by too often disposing of the ball once they believe the trouble has passed...just watch them. They finally get clear then kick straight away...it it truly bizarre.



The one thing we were apparently missing from last year was a bid bodied FF. Hall wasn't supposed to be the 'answer' but he was supposed to be the missing link in an otherwise well oiled chain. We can't control injuries and alike, but the fact that we're one of the worst sides for turnovers is alarming.

I maintain we weren't missing a thing and am pretty sure those thoughts are well documented...I have been saying for months that our forward structure with Hall - in fact our team structure - is destined to fail and said pre-season that 6th or 7th was where we would finish.



I didn't have a problem with Higgins' commitment on Friday Night, but his disposal and decision making was beyond awful. He deserves to be criticised for mistakes like the one he made in the last quarter. It was a certain, easy goal - at least it should of been. If his groin/ankle isn't right - he shouldn't play. There's no way Higgins is 100% fit. His efficiency was something like 25% by foot v Essendon and 40% v Hawthorn. Scratch endeavour, how will we ever beat quality sides with statistics like that?

Maybe he is injured and is playing under duress...maybe he is doing everything he can because the alternatives aren't great. I would still have him in.



No doubt Hawthorn are in good form but I think we're forgetting their bottom four-five are ordinary. They are getting the most out of their top six-seven players at the moment. I want to know why we can't, and how to address it.

FWIW I think Geelong will cover them by 4-5 goals.

I said pre-season that Hawthorn will win it and still believe it...maybe I just have a higher opinion of them than everyone else?

[Doggy]

I said pre-season that Hawthorn will win it and still believe it...maybe I just have a higher opinion of them than everyone else?[/QUOTE]

They will be very lucky to make top 4.
2 wins and 20% behind Freo.

[Curly5]

I agree with that and further made mention of the possibility of only being one game behind Freo. Just reckon it's an outside shot..

Also agree with the rest of your post. We just lost a game against a fellow top 4 contender that we deserved to win. I know its extremely heartbreaking but we have shown we can match it with Hawthorn and St Kilda this year.

Yes, it's consoling that we ALMOST beat them, but the fact remains, we DIDN'T! It's not good enough to ALMOST win, FGS! :mad:


Dare I say it the shockers have a possible tough match against Dare I say it the Tigers!!:eek:

Go Tiges!!!!!


I dont think its very often you can point at one player and say he lost us the game - its generally unfair, but this week, what can you say about Griffens game where he collected 19 disposals and had 13 turnovers? he won the game for the hawks.

And didn't shepherd that last kick through the goals. :eek:


For me ... it is really important to win this game. It is a MUST WIN game! ... otherwise how can I get through the Monday after at the office surrounded by Blue fans :(

Same. :(

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Hawks are a far better team now than in R3. Sydney were in a flat spot when we smacked them...the only games this year I rate are the two I mentioned - hard-fought games against top sides.

Hawthorn were in good form when we beat them. They smashed Melbourne in Round 1, should of beaten Geelong in Round 2 and pushed us for the majority of the game in Round 3.

Agree re; Sydney but at least we hit targets in these games. I read an article today that the game v Hawthorn and the game v Essendon were our worst for disposal efficiency. Obviously playing better sides makes it difficult to execute your skills, but that's the difference between good and great sides. Arguably we're not even 'good' at the moment either.


Hawthorn had too many shots on goal from close in and inside the corridor - this helped their goal front efficiency. I thought our defenders did a good job on the whole, but the percentage of easy goals kicked by the Hawks was far too high...to me, this cost us the game. Only Franklin's last one (off the top of my head) was a really telling goal from a difficult spot.

Definitely agree with the above. Thought the same thing. Hodge and Mitchell got a couple from this situation, but I also thought our defenders held up pretty well. Still wouldn't say this cost us the game. We had plenty of chances to nail easy goals (Eg. Griff's) and had plenty of the ball moving forward. We just couldn't hit targets and made bad choices. Hall tried to pass to Johnson after taking a mark inside the 50 when Johnson had 2 or 3 Hawks within reach. This kind of play seemed to happen all night. The fact that we can't 'adjust' and 'improve' in these areas mid-game is worrying. We're either 'on' or 'off' - we have to get better at this.

Hawthorn are a solid side in good form so when we don't take our chances and keep turning the ball over, their chances will inevitably come. We can't defend them all night.


Has anyone considered that fact that winning clearances is a detriment to kicking efficiency as it leads to possessions under pressure? The clearance stats as they are today are fatally flawed and until they correctly represent clearances under pressure vs easy outs they will remain useless.

Add to this that when players - Griffen and Harbrow are good examples - continually try to take on the tackler (as they are instructed to do) they create additional pressure on EVERY possession they have...tacklers know they will hold on to the ball and will go at the body every time. They react to this by too often disposing of the ball once they believe the trouble has passed...just watch them. They finally get clear then kick straight away...it it truly bizarre.

It's a good point but a lot of the time our players had space and time. Higgins making a complete mess late in the last, Ward continually using his left foot, Cross using his, Boyd attempting stab passes, Wood blazing, Reid picking out Hawks etc. A lot of these passes were from 'set plays', after we had taken a mark. I lost count how many times Ward won a ball, had time, and for whatever reason ran to his left side to dispose of it. I don't think anyone minds turnovers under pressure, but a lot of the time, it didn't matter if it was there or not.

When our best players are turning it ove,r we have no chance. The way Hodge, Mitchell and Rioli used the ball (when it mattered most) got them over the line. We lacked poise in situations that required it. Been a reoccurring theme over the past few years.


I maintain we weren't missing a thing and am pretty sure those thoughts are well documented...I have been saying for months that our forward structure with Hall - in fact our team structure - is destined to fail and said pre-season that 6th or 7th was where we would finish.

Yep - no disputes with that one. You called it before anyone else.


Maybe he is injured and is playing under duress...maybe he is doing everything he can because the alternatives aren't great. I would still have him in.

Why though? He can't offer us anything offensively or defensively. He could have perhaps won us the game late but made a meal out of it. Think Hawthorn got it down the other end and scored? Either way, it's a huge shift of momentum and injured or not he should be better than that. His disposal efficiency alone says to me he's injured to an extent that he's a liability.

By the way mjp - a good, well thought out discussion. Cheers.

[Ghost Dog]

On the surface it was a very honest and committed effort. But that would also over-rate Hawthorn's overall 22-man personnel (they have a very fair sprinkling of spuds to go with their stars) and also give our players a get-out clause for the once again dreadfully wasteful delivery into forward 50. This was the first game I've seen back in the country since the Essendon game and I thought our butchering of the hard-won contested ball going into forward 50 was a mirror image of the Bombers clash. Also it was clear that, once the game tightened up after our first 8 minutes of domination in the last qtr came up short on the scoreboard, it was going to be Hawthorn's star-power that would make pivotal contribution for the remainder of the match. Hodge, Mitchell, Franklin and Rioli all made telling offensive and defensive contributions that our leaders just did not match when the game was in the balance. And once again we have fallen short in a close finish against a good opponent, which screams to me that we don't have absolute match-winners at the death or we are psychologically unable to think our way through decision-making to ensure we end up on the right side of the ledger in such tight finishes.

I was certainly happy with the effort and intent of the players (smashing the Hawks at the contested ball is testament to our effort in the clinches) but I'm not happy with such repeatedly wasteful kicking efficiency that is killing all our hard-won gains in at the contests, nor am I happy with the fact that we don't appear to possess senior players that take charge in tight matches and simply do what they need to do to will the team over the line.

Fair comments. Well summed up.

[stefoid]

How is that comment relevant to this thread?

Not particularly, I was responding to an earlier post that I should have quoted.

[stefoid]

Has anyone considered that fact that winning clearances is a detriment to kicking efficiency as it leads to possessions under pressure? The clearance stats as they are today are fatally flawed and until they correctly represent clearances under pressure vs easy outs they will remain useless.

Add to this that when players - Griffen and Harbrow are good examples - continually try to take on the tackler (as they are instructed to do) they create additional pressure on EVERY possession they have...tacklers know they will hold on to the ball and will go at the body every time. They react to this by too often disposing of the ball once they believe the trouble has passed...just watch them. They finally get clear then kick straight away...it it truly bizarre.


I think youre off there. Its not taking on the tackler which is the bad thing, its the execution. Geelongs whole game plan relies on taking on the opposition, riding tackles, etc... We just need to be better at it. What you dont want is to fire panic handballs or kicks to nobody because you are about to be tackled.

And there is nothing wrong with winning clearances!!! Winning clearance = good. Poor skills and bad decisions = bad.

[Mantis]

I think youre off there. Its not taking on the tackler which is the bad thing, its the execution. Geelongs whole game plan relies on taking on the opposition, riding tackles, etc... We just need to be better at it. What you dont want is to fire panic handballs or kicks to nobody because you are about to be tackled.



Geelongs game plan & game style also relies on running to support your team-mates. On too many occassions on Friday night we had players isolated which meant their only option was to try and take on the would be tackler(s), but when this failed we got caught on the counter.

It happens too often against good sides and needs to improve.

[mjp]

I think youre off there. Its not taking on the tackler which is the bad thing, its the execution. Geelongs whole game plan relies on taking on the opposition, riding tackles, etc... We just need to be better at it. What you dont want is to fire panic handballs or kicks to nobody because you are about to be tackled.

I want us to take on the tackler. I want us to run at the opposition. That is good. But it is best when the player who does the running doesn't do the kicking!

Your comment about panic handballs or kicks by players about to be tackled? That is a lack of composure and not something I think we generally have a problem with.



And there is nothing wrong with winning clearances!!! Winning clearance = good. Poor skills and bad decisions = bad.

'CLEAR' stoppage wins = good. 'CLEAR' stoppage losses = BAD. I agree.

With numbers behind the ball and the like, half scrambly clearances wins without purpose are an irrelevance and the worst stat in footy (well, along with inside 50's). A win is not always a win when it comes to clearances - if the downfield kick is not effective or at the very least not INEFFECTIVE (leads to either another stoppage or our possession) I dont think it should count as a win is what I am saying and we have WAY too many in that category.

[Go_Dogs]

Some great discussion guys, good stuff.

[Happy Days]

Hawthorn had too many shots on goal from close in and inside the corridor - this helped their goal front efficiency. I thought our defenders did a good job on the whole, but the percentage of easy goals kicked by the Hawks was far too high...to me, this cost us the game. Only Franklin's last one (off the top of my head) was a really telling goal from a difficult spot.


This.

The reason our backline was so good on Friday was that they always looked to be in front, even in pack marking situations. This meant, however, that no one would get goal side and no one would be back to stop easy ones over the back (Muston's goal, Buddy's first goal, etc.). That and the lack of a target along HF is why we lost Friday.

[LostDoggy]

This.

The reason our backline was so good on Friday was that they always looked to be in front, even in pack marking situations. This meant, however, that no one would get goal side and no one would be back to stop easy ones over the back (Muston's goal, Buddy's first goal, etc.). That and the lack of a target along HF is why we lost Friday.


Which is why Murphy has to go forward and go forward now Happy.

[Happy Days]

[/B]


Which is why Murphy has to go forward and go forward now Happy.

Not neccesarily.

He wasn't setting the world on fire up there at the start of the season. He has, however, been setting the world on fire down back, and allows Gilbee to play with alot more freedom, as he's been the one copping the forward tags the past few games.

I just think the midfield needs to use the ball better going forward instead of bombing it long, and one of Grant and Hall needs to play higher, instead of having both deep.

[LostDoggy]

Not neccesarily.

He wasn't setting the world on fire up there at the start of the season. He has, however, been setting the world on fire down back, and allows Gilbee to play with alot more freedom, as he's been the one copping the forward tags the past few games.

I just think the midfield needs to use the ball better going forward instead of bombing it long, and one of Grant and Hall needs to play higher, instead of having both deep.

Yea the midfield has been bombing the ball far to often, I would like to see Murph and Grant lead up either side and split open their defence. Then have Hall and Roughead playing deep then we just need a good crumber. Maybe Aker and Harbrow.

[LostDoggy]

I know Aker is not back yet and we will need Harbrow in defence this week, was thinking future wise. Not sure what to think crumber wise this week.

[azabob]

As everyone has said massive game.

Even more so with Hawthorn losing today.

If we win; 4 points clear in 5th spot with games against Port and Freo in the next two weeks.

[LostDoggy]

If we win; 4 points clear in 5th spot ...

Plus very good percentage.

[Ghost Dog]

Re Carlton game.
Encouraging to see the narrow margin between Haw and Geel today. If we can get within 3 points of one we can get close to the other. Hopefully.

[LostDoggy]

Lol might I say it.. go the tiges lol

If we win, just one game short of Freo for fourth.

Aside... the saints play ugly footy. I know you already know that.

[BulldogBelle]

And now Richmomd have beaten fremantle. Even more reason to win.

A BIG game for us sunday.

[LostDoggy]

Another big game... I better not watch then...

[Mantis]

And now Richmomd have beaten fremantle. Even more reason to win.

A BIG game for us sunday.

I would hope this result has absolutely no influence on how we prepare ourselves.

We have to start looking after ourselves as our destiny is still in our hands.

[Remi Moses]

Massive for us now..Although we all know how we've gone with expectation:eek:

[Rocco Jones]

What a massive result for us tonight. I think it has turned tomorrow's game from one about consolidating 5th to one about chasing a top 4 spot. Consequences of losing are pretty much the same though. Massive, massive game.

[GVGjr]

What a massive result for us tonight. I think it has turned tomorrow's game from one about consolidating 5th to one about chasing a top 4 spot. Consequences of losing are pretty much the same though. Massive, massive game.

With the way some results have fallen for us I agree it's really stepped up this game as being vitally important plus we need to give the blue supporters a reality check. :)

[Ghost Dog]

They are thinking the same thing. They have every reason to be confident given past games.
Glad to see the MC roll the dice a bit.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I read on the Carlton board that there's a rumour the flu has swept through our camp.

Also had Johnson as a possible out for Hooper.

Anyone heard anything or is this all crap?

[AndrewP6]

I read on the Carlton board that there's a rumour the flu has swept through our camp.

Also had Johnson as a possible out for Hooper.

Anyone heard anything or is this all crap?

The Dogs Facebook page had a post up yesterday saying Bazza has had a cold (hence his no-show on The Footy Show), but no mention of flu - him or anyone else..so if it's true they're keeping it to themselves.

[Mantis]

I read on the Carlton board that there's a rumour the flu has swept through our camp.

Also had Johnson as a possible out for Hooper.

Anyone heard anything or is this all crap?

Did anyone head to training this morning?

I guess if they did they could report on who was missing.

[Flamethrower]

I read on the Carlton board that there's a rumour the flu has swept through our camp.

Also had Johnson as a possible out for Hooper.

Anyone heard anything or is this all crap?

I can guarantee that no one at the Bulldogs has Influenza (Swine or seasonal) as it is pretty much non-existant in the community so far this winter. Baz had a few days in bed with a mild respiratory infection but got through training today.

[Desipura]

I would hope this result has absolutely no influence on how we prepare ourselves.

We have to start looking after ourselves as our destiny is still in our hands.
In regards to top 4, and Richmond beating Freo, means our destiny is now definately in our own hands!

[Pickenitup]

Went training yesterday and all of the names 22 trained Baz was training in a beanie so id expect
no changes to the side.The boys trained really well in difficult conditions

[Stevo]

If we can't capitalize today on this free hit we have been given during this round we really don't deserve to be classed as one of the top sides. Supporters have been very patient waiting for the side to get it together and a win today is vital.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

I would hope this result has absolutely no influence on how we prepare ourselves.

We have to start looking after ourselves as our destiny is still in our hands.

Good point Mantis. We play Freo at Etihad rnd 17. First Carlton, then Port, then Freo, by which time we should be in the four on healthy percentage.:);)
We should finish in the four given that we should win as many as Feo, even permitting a loss against Geelong. Freo should lose to the Hawks at Aurora and still have to beat Carlton at Subi in the last round.
We've gotta be favourites to make the four!!!!!!!!!.:);)