Are we the real deal?

[Mantis]

We have shown over the past few years that we sit quite comfortably amongst the top 4 teams in the competition, but as of now we haven't been able to make the step up to the top 2 and really challenge for a the premiership we all desire.

So as we sit awaiting the finals 5 weeks and then a finals campaign that will hopefully lead to the ultimate prize have we made the necessary changes to our game style and playing group to make this jump?

What's working?

* Clearances & contested ball wins:

From being a team that was known as a bunch of front running downhill skiers ( we still are by the nuffies of the footy world) we are now a hard & formidable team when it comes to our contested ball winning ability and clearance work. Boyd, Cross and the Hudson/ Minson combo give us our in & under strength and are ably backed up by Ward & Gia. In Cooney & Griffen we have 2 of the best 'burst' players in the competition who use strength, speed & power to break clear of the clearance area.

We have shown over the past few years and even more this year that we can match the best in this much important area, but as of right now it hasn't quite been enough, but we do know that we won't be bullied in this area.

* Backline:

One of Rodney Eade's great achievements within his time as coach has been the moulding of our defensive group. Thinking back to the period thru 2005-7 we really struggled in defence, but Eade allowed this group to grow and develop by plunging them into the deep end. Our defenders were forced to go one on one and were often out-sized and even out-skilled, but this 'tough love' has been paid back in spades with the group we now have.

The group has now matured such that it contains 3 All Australians (Lake, Morris & Gilbee) and another 2 (Harbrow & Hargrave) who have been or are close to the mark. We have the 2nd best ranked defnce now in terms of points against and while some credit most go to our defensive structures, most is/ should be heaped upon our defence.

Williams gives us some much need size and adds to our flexibility and in the past 5 or 6 weeks we have added Wood & Murphy to our defensive group which has been a great success. As well as adding excellent defensive skills they also add run, carry & creativity to the back half. We did look a little predictable with the way we released the ball from defence thru the first half of the season, but we now have great flexibility.


What isn't?

* Forward set-up:

I am not convinced that our current forward set-up and the players within it (on current form) have what it takes to beat the high quality teams. With our team looking quite settled I believe the following forward set-up will be the one we will take into the finals:

HF: Gia, Grant, Ward
F: Higgins, Hall, Johnson

Will this group kick us to a flag? I'm doubtful, here's why...

- Not enough variety - Only Hall & Grant offer something different.
- Higgins & Johnson are obviously struggling with their bodies and aren't playing the type of footy we expect (need?) from them. Both have issues with pace, ball use and defensive efforts.
- We don't have enough players who can take overhead or one on one marks.
- Opposing teams will sit on Hall, they know how good he is when has space... they won't allow us this luxury. While we can still rack up cricket like scores against the poor teams we do struggle to kick goals against the good teams and we do rely on Barry more so than any other player.

How to fix? -

- On current form not all of Johnson, Higgins & Gia can play - we need something different up forward. Hill is the obvious one as he has some unique abilities, but he needs to show he can compete with the best which he hasn't thus far. I guess it would be a big call to play him (or Everitt), but I think it's a risk we might have to take.
- I believe in our current (or perhaps any other) set-up Grant is the key. He has genuine pace and if used cleverly by blocking for him he will be able to find space within our F50 and with his hands we know the ball will finish with him. A big call, but he is one player through physical characteristics who will be able to get separation from his opponent. His kicking for goal will be crucial as I have no doubt he will be presented with plenty of opportunities.
- We must be daring with our use of Lake & Murphy up forward. We have seen all year that they make a real difference to our forward line. Murphy loves the space of the MCG and must be used wisely. Lake offers Hall some cover and will mean teams can't zone off which will be especially important against St.Kilda and Collingwood.

I guess one important factor will be how we use the ball going forward, but one would think that the opposition will not allow a heap of quality ball going forward so that may mean lots of ground balls, etc so we need to be prepared and pick a team for that.

* Defensive transition:

Our ability to stop the opposition on the rebound is a great concern. Our current forwards as a group is pretty slow and they don't offer great offensive pressure. As recently as a few weeks back we were the worst ranked team in the competition for tackles inside F50... that's not good enough.

Once the ball is cleared from this area we have a midfield group that generally is pretty poor at finding a man and pressuring the opposition to create a turnover. In a sense they are pretty unaccountable. Boyd, Cooney & Griffen seem lost in the transition from attack to defence and seem to mill around looking to guard space rather than to find a man. This may be a direct instruction, but the lack of real intensity they show in this part of the game isn't up to scratch. Cross generally for-goes hunting a man and heads back to defence to block up space for the oppositions forwards, but the out-numbering this creates in the middle means the ball travels further than it could if he was helping out.

Our one saviour is Liam Picken who works (runs) just as hard in defence as he does in offence. He sets the example which I wish others would follow. He is a gem.

We cannot allow the competitions big guns to have so much space thru the middle part of ground as it will place too much pressure on our defence. I have faith in our defence to hold steady, but they need more help from their team-mates further afield.

What's been lacking in previous finals matches and games against the big guns:

* Game-breakers:

We need the likes of Cooney & Griffen to continue their rise and make September their own. Griffen has been a solid contributor in previous finals, but Cooney has been a little quiet, he needs to stamp his authority on September. Our other mid’s will need to work hard to ‘free’ these 2 up by blocking for them at the contested areas, these selfless acts will be important. Our other jet is Lake who's form is a given, but he will need to rise again as both our rock in defence and our pinch hitter going forward.

* Win the key moments:

Our team and especially our game-breakers need to win the key moments. Ablett, Chapman, Hodge, Franklin, Riewoldt & Hayes have all shown in the past that they can step up at crucial times to ensure their team wins finals. We have had no player stamp their authority in this way and that needs to change. (I have purposely left out Collingwood players as they are in the same boat as us)

To ensure we win these key moments we will need our players to stick to our structures and game plans and especially concentrate when things get close. We can't afford to have past errors (think St.Kilda & Hawthorn clashes) rear their ugly heads as it can and has cost us close matches.... We need to be better than that.

Where does that leave us?

While it has been nice to get some confidence over the past 3 weeks with some comfortable wins (and we will probably have another one this week) I still feel there are some under-lying problems that could hold us back. These problems may be just in my imagination and we will step-up to the plate come finals time, but if they aren't I hope they have been noted and will be addressed sooner rather than later.

We have shown the ability in the past week to make the tough (and correct) call. I hope we can, if needed, make a couple more as I think our season may depend upon it.

[vho]

Great read Mantis. There is no doubt we have the cattle on the park to win the premiership, i'm more concerned about the key moments you have mentioned. Good players perform during the H/A season, great players step up to another gear in the finals. I feel over the past few final campaigns we have matched the best in general play but really struggle to finish off with a goal, this i believe is our biggest issue. We need to seize the moment.

[Greystache]

Good analysis Mantis, have to say I agree with pretty much all of it.

With the obvious added focus around our defensive structure and efforts, it seems strange that some members of our forward line can get away with putting in so little effort in that area.

I agree we can't carry both Higgins and Johnson in the same forward line in a final, but who would the MC leave out if they had the courage to make the call? Johnson, who's been a serial failure in big finals, or Higgins who likes to fancy himself as a big game player but who's form has been terrible all season? I rather fancy they won't leave out either sadly.

[ledge]

Could Roughead help us out in the forward line at some stages do you think Mantis, my worry is Grant isnt quite taking those big grabs yet that we thought he would.
I did notice against Freo (and it was mentioned in commentary) that with 3 talls up forward it was very hard to find match ups with the opposition.
Also rotating Murphy and Lake up forward, depending on state of game of course.
Its a very good post Mantis.
I do think we have a team that can play in the wet or dry with a very good option on talls or smalls up forward and depending on which way Rodney decides to play against each opponent.
My biggest worry is if we stop start, doing the kicking around the 50 metre arc up forward, to me that has been the sign we are in trouble with what to do.
This has become a lot less a sight this year though I must say.

[LostDoggy]

An outstanding Review, Mantis.

Tugan Goalsneak suggested to me the other day that he would like to see Picken spend time at Halls feet because of his hardness at the contest and goal kicking nous.

I agree this has some merit. He is the one who may provide real clout in this previously recognized area of need

[comrade]

Yep, good stuff. The conference must be a ripper :D

Here's what I wrote in response:


It was a really good read. The reality of our team is that we're not blessed with quick forwards who pressure the opposition when they run it out of defence. Therefore our midfield does become critical in blocking up any run through the middle by CHASING, not just guarding space or moving back into the defensive 50 like as you pointed out Crossy does.

The Collingwood midfield is a good example of a group that forces the opposition defence to cough the ball up by harrasing and tackling in the middle of the ground when they try to run it our - this usually leads to an inefficient entry into the Collingwood defensive 50 which gets picked off by the likes of Shaw, O'Brien etc. I'm not saying they're the benchmark or unbeatable, but it is one way they've definitely improved this year.

In the end, it requires an attitude adjustment. If Boyd and co can switch on and force turn overs, it will lead to goals for us on the rebound. Most goals are scored from turnovers, so we need to generate more.

The other thing you pointed out which is spot on are the number of forwards we have who are unable to be dangerous in a contest (and even worse when it hits the ground).

Higgins has the scope to be a great overhead mark for his size and he's proven it before but he just looks like he has no faith in his body. Soft contact, falls to the ground - I even saw a one handed marking attempt late in the game against Freo. I know we might need to make a tough call on Johnno but if he stays purely in the forward 50, I think he can still be valuable with his footy smarts - and to be honest, I don't think the MC is prepared to put a line through him.

I think Higgins may be the one who needs a spell, to see if Hill or someone else (probably not Jones, but he can take a grab and loves to chase) can step up and give that extra dimension to our forward line.

I don't think Mitch Hahn adds anything we don't already have.

Just one from left field - if Barry is getting sat on, Grant's not having an impact and the others can't take a mark, do we plonk Liam Picken square into it? He hasn't shown a great ability to clunk a mark, but he'll bring it to ground and then chase his arse off. He can also kick some sneaky goals, as we saw on the weekend. I know he's a critical component of our midfield but there may be times he can pinch hit with someone like Gia, who has looked good through the midfield and is harder than people give him credit for. Could change the dynamic of the forward line if we're struggling for options.

Midfield accountability and one more dangerous forward. I think we can tweak our lineup to fix the deficiencies.

The one thing we can only hope happens, is that someone pulls a massive performance when it counts. I think Griff has it in him, maybe not 4 quarters but at critical game-busting times. Cooney is the man that needs to say "boys, I'm the best player in this team and I'm making sure we win".

Does he have it in him?

[Ghost Dog]

Great read. That stat about tackles inside our F50 is a real worry. Collingwood are a good example of a team that just locks it in and we saw that last weekend.

The idea of putting Liam in the F50 is interesting. As he showed on Sunday, he's much more than just a 'tagger'.

[The Pie Man]

Good analysis Mantis, have to say I agree with pretty much all of it.

With the obvious added focus around our defensive structure and efforts, it seems strange that some members of our forward line can get away with putting in so little effort in that area.

I agree we can't carry both Higgins and Johnson in the same forward line in a final, but who would the MC leave out if they had the courage to make the call? Johnson, who's been a serial failure in big finals, or Higgins who likes to fancy himself as a big game player but who's form has been terrible all season? I rather fancy they won't leave out either sadly.

Not sure I agree with Johnson not performing in finals - for memory he was ok in last year's prelim...but it can be argued (and has rather well this week) that he's not the same player today that he was even 9 months ago.

Same with Higgins - Chooseday night footy on Fox this week was round 9 last year vs Geelong*, and Higgins on a number of occassions really burst away from packs (and then late in the game aggravated his groin injury :() and he hasn't looked the same all season. I think I might be in the minority that thought he looked better than he had on Sunday, and one thing he hasn't lost is his capacity to nail a set shot.

* on another note, the team looks a fair bit different today to that one

Out : Callan, Hahn, Akermanis, Hill, Welsh, Eagleton, Minson
In: Grant, Hall, Moles, Roughead, Murphy (was injured) Wood..can't think of the 7th

Great thread and read Mantis - I share your concern re: forwardline pressure and how it will stand up in September. Hall's a massive improvement, but the supporting cast (outside of Grant) has declined....perhaps significantly. If Hill can find a competitive nature he maybe the wildcard, but I see our need is more of a Rioli type of crafty predator (Rioli being referenced as the ideal example) and I don't see Hill having the 'shimmy' for such a role...clean hands though.

[Mantis]

Picken - up forward? - I think he is too valauble in his role as a run with player to contemplate this move. I guess if we find ourselves in the situation where he has no suitable match-up for even just 5 minutes it might be worth a shot.

Roughead - up forward? - Like Will, Roughy has shown an ability to take the odd big grab, but his kicking for goal isn't great and I don't see him as an option just yet.

Daring play vs stop/start - we will need to take risks to beat the good teams, no doubt, but these must be calculated and well constructed and when we do take a risk we must kick the ball to our advantage which will mean the ball must be in the hands of good ball users. It will do more harm than good to kick wildy, but if we see an opening we must take it.

[LostDoggy]

Daring play vs stop/start - we will need to take risks to beat the good teams, no doubt, but these must be calculated and well constructed and when we do take a risk we must kick the ball to our advantage which will mean the ball must be in the hands of good ball users. It will do more harm than good to kick wildy, but if we see an opening we must take it.

It's a balance that we got wrong earlier in the year -- too much fear, too focussed on direct opponent, not enough options ahead of the ball -- but we've also gotten wrong the other way when getting into ill-advised shootouts (like in the past vs. Carlton). Since the break we look like we've gotten the balance right, and we look a heck of a lot better for it. We're not a naturally lock-it-in type of team, and have had to get bigger and stronger in the past few years to compete consistently, but our point of difference is quality getting forward and an ability to pile on goals quickly. Having fixed up our defence, and with the knowledge that we are a liability on the transition with our slow-as-treacle forwardline, we just have to score heavily when we get a chance, with timely scoreboard contributions from our dynamic midfielders (Griff, Coons) to stand a chance of winning. If we keep it close, we're always at a risk of leaking goals at inopportune times because of our defensive vulnerabilities in the forwardline and midfield (that you've covered well Mantis) -- just have to pile the goals on and kill games off when we are on top.

[Mantis]

It's a balance that we got wrong earlier in the year -- too much fear, too focussed on direct opponent, not enough options ahead of the ball -- but we've also gotten wrong the other way when getting into ill-advised shootouts (like in the past vs. Carlton). Since the break we look like we've gotten the balance right, and we look a heck of a lot better for it. We're not a naturally lock-it-in type of team, and have had to get bigger and stronger in the past few years to compete consistently, but our point of difference is quality getting forward and an ability to pile on goals quickly. Having fixed up our defence, and with the knowledge that we are a liability on the transition with our slow-as-treacle forwardline, we just have to score heavily when we get a chance, with timely scoreboard contributions from our dynamic midfielders (Griff, Coons) to stand a chance of winning. If we keep it close, we're always at a risk of leaking goals at inopportune times because of our defensive vulnerabilities in the forwardline and midfield (that you've covered well Mantis) -- just have to pile the goals on and kill games off when we are on top.

That's an important point and one I probably should have raised.

We have seen in our two recent clashes aginst St.Kilda in the in PF last year and in our clash earlier this year that we have enjoyed periods of domination in general play, but haven't made this count on the scoreboard.

When/ If we get periods where we hold sway we simply need to make the most of these opportunities.

[Greystache]

Not sure I agree with Johnson not performing in finals - for memory he was ok in last year's prelim...but it can be argued (and has rather well this week) that he's not the same player today that he was even 9 months ago.

Sheer weight of numbers disagree, since 1994 Johnson has played 11 finals against top 4 teams, he's gathered more than 20 possessions only once, and has kicked 13 goals. A poor return from a club legend and captain. Sadly his time might have passed him by to have an impact in a big game unless he can pull something out of nowhere this year.

[Mofra]

Completely agree with the call on Grant.
Geelong has lost to teams which have genuine pace in their F50 - their defence is rock solid but not overly quick. Grant is the one player who can use pure pace to break the defensive unit open and woul dbe a key to beating Geelong.

I also suspect against the Cats we would look to Cooney/Griffen to rest forward instead of on the bench, just because their burst speed will trouble the Cats defence. It may mean slightly less time in the centre, but if our "grunters' (Cross, Boyd, Moles, Ward) can break even in the middle, our A graders should be able to kick 2-3 goals between them which would be an enourmous boost.

I'd actually be willing to play Gia in the centre a little more (his work in close is brilliant) to play to one of his strengths a little more, and have a quick midfielder resting forward at times to give us the variety we need - and not just agaimnst the Cats. By rotating players through there (Murphy/Lake/Gilbee) at odd times during the game we can seize the initiative to keep our F50 functionign and keep the opposition defence out of their comfort zones. Seeing a Wood or Shaggy or Picken kick a goal or two would be a great result for us.

[Cyberdoggie]

Could Roughead help us out in the forward line at some stages do you think Mantis, my worry is Grant isnt quite taking those big grabs yet that we thought he would.

He will certainly add something different than the Minson and Hudson clones.
Jordan can take pack marks and has good skills by hand and foot, but he does lack experience and perhaps some size. Having said that though, Geelong, Hawthorn and StKilda and Collingwood don't have the best ruck fleet going around. Geelong can be strong with Ottens and Hawkins may provide something new but Blake is a dud.
The Hawks have nothing in Renouf and Skipper isn't much of a threat. The Saints main ruck is Gardner with King and McEvoy in support, They are certainly the stronger body ruck combo and Collingwood with Jolly are ok.
With that in mind i don't see that Roughead would be out of his depth with support from either Minson or Hudson. He showed against freo that he's a more than capable AFL ruck, with plenty of developement left in him.

If only he can learn to kick straight it could of been a rising star nomination for Jordan instead of Grant.



I agree with the Grant worry, we shouldnt' be relying on him yet, and unfortunately we seem to be running out of time to get the right player to play along side him in the future into the side, and that is Liam Jones. I think they will be a great combination for the future for us, unfortunately it's a little too early just yet.


So in summary, from Mantis's review, i think we all agree we need a cyril rioli in the forward line and a little more tackling pressure in the forward 50 and middle. Perhaps Moles, Ward and Picken will provide enough this year, and in the future the Sam Reid, Liberatore additions might ammend this.

I guess we will know where we are at with the changes we have made this year when we come up against Geelong soon.

[The Coon Dog]

Great read Mantis & I have also enjoyed some of the other posts.

I think we all acknowledge that we're a top 4 team, but there are doubts about our ability to take the next step (& the one after).

As Mantis alluded to there have been instances where we have enjoyed periods of dominance, but not been able to convert on the scoreboard.

Why is that?

Have we been forced into bringing the ball into our forward line via the boundary & as a consequence find ourselves kicking set shot goals on tight/ish angles?

Are we rushing the shots on the run (pressure or inferred pressure)?

Is it a mental thing?

Scoreboard pressure kills the opposition's spirit & capacity to remain in the game.

We just need to nail each & every opportunity we get in the games that matter.

[bornadog]

Great read Mantis & I have also enjoyed some of the other posts. AGREE

As Mantis alluded to there have been instances where we have enjoyed periods of dominance, but not been able to convert on the scoreboard.

Why is that?

.

I think our main concern is the Saints type of set up, which we have struggled to kick goals against. We all thought a big forward was the answer, but Hall is not known for his contested marking. Of course if we kick it to him, we need crumbers around and forward 50 pressure to keep the ball in our forward line. Saints are good at getting numbers back and clogging the oppositions forward line. We tried to play their game earlier this year and we held out till the last 5 minutes of the game.

I am more positive this year than any of the past couple of years and Hall has a lot to do with that. The past three games we have had 10 plus goal kickers each game, which means we need to keep this up.

[Go_Dogs]

Terrific discussion all round.

IMO, we are the real deal. We can win this thing, and I hope the players take the attitude of we WILL win this thing. Mindset and confidence are the only things that will prevent us from going all the way...and I believe the group has that inner belief, and is starting to realise it's full potential.

[Doc26]

Our midfield disposal effectiveness against the stronger opposition midfields is what concerns me just as much as the correctly highlighted issues in our forward fifty.

With that said Higgins and Johnson offensively are still not cutting it at the level we need to be at and their forward defensive efforts continue to be close to non existent. Josh Hill offers something different offensively but like the other 2 does not work the other way. I don't have much faith in their defensive efforts doing an about turn and live in hope that offensively things turn for them to compensate for their defensive inefficiencies.

Shutting down your Enright's, Scarlett's, Shaw's, O'Brien's, Fisher's and Gilbert's etc efffectiveness is probably our single biggest challenge assuming we continue to persevere with Higgins & Johnson and Gia in the forward half or even if the MC do give Josh another crack at it.

[always right]

Agree with so much on this thread. There's no doubt we have some shortfalls that will be difficult to overcome in the short term. but I'd like to take a slightly more positive stance.

To me the mix of players in our team is so much better than 12 months ago and it's been driven by the introduction of Grant to our forwardline, a still under-done Ward, and probably more importantly Wood and Murphy to our backline. It's those last two that have got me excited, not only for what they've brought to our backline but what the flexibility they bring to the team.

I've felt for a while that we lack flexibility and it's hurt us in the last couple of years when our plan A just hasn't been able to get us across the line. The move of Wood and Murphy to the backline has created a pool of players we can swing around as the need arises. We now have Hargrave, Picken, Harbrow, Gilbee, Wood, Murphy all capable of picking up the mobile dangerous small forwards, yet at any stage we can comfortably move several of those forward. The regular addition of Williams also allows us to push Lake forward as the opportunity arises.

This unpredictability could be the single biggest factor we haven't had before. If our form and fitness holds up, I think we enter the finals in the best position we have for some years. Perhaps I'm just an optimist.

[stefoid]

wow!

I agree with most of it.

Eade has been tweaking the team the whole year. Murph and Wood to the backline is a big win, particularly Murph. Earlier in the year we were looking solid but stagnant back there, but Murph in particular is so creative and runs the lines and now we have harbrow, gilbee and murph back there running the ball out - they cant tag of all them.

The bonus there is that the extra creative player (murph) can release harbrow in bursts to the midfield where his bursts could potentially cut the opposition up. We should be giving him as much time in the middle as he/we can in the leadup to the finals.

And we can send Lake forward in bursts too when we are desperate for a goal.

I think the skills through the centre of the ground under pressure have also been lacking - tag griffen and he coughs it up. Cooney too has been burning a lot of his possessions. they are our game breakers and they both need to lift coming into the finals if we are to make the granny.

Agreed, we are still in the process of rejigging the forward line. Hall, Grant, Johno (if fit) and Gia are locks. Both Gias and Johnos experience at being in the right place at the right time is something we cant just replace by bringing in some kid.

Eade is giving Jones a run so obviously he is still shuffling the deckchairs in that regard also.

[stefoid]

Sheer weight of numbers disagree, since 1994 Johnson has played 11 finals against top 4 teams, he's gathered more than 20 possessions only once, and has kicked 13 goals. A poor return from a club legend and captain. Sadly his time might have passed him by to have an impact in a big game unless he can pull something out of nowhere this year.

Thats not really fair on johno. The role he was playing for us pre-2009 (undersized FF) was only out of necessity. If you want to judge him, judge him by the role he will play for us this year which is essentially the same as last years - half forward flanker

His last 5 games for us last year were against two top 4 sides (geelong and the pies) in rounds 21 and 22, and then 3 finals. His stats were:

poss, marks, score
22, 10, 2.2
22, 7, 4.2
15, 2, 2.2
26, 4, -,-
19, 6, 2.0

That is pretty respectable from any half forward, and if fit, there is no reason not to expect those kinds of performances this year as well. (edit: and pretty sure he had a bung shoulder during last years finals series, or was that the year before?)

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

We have shown over the past few years that we sit quite comfortably amongst the top 4 teams in the competition, but as of now we haven't been able to make the step up to the top 2 and really challenge for a the premiership we all desire.

So as we sit awaiting the finals 5 weeks and then a finals campaign that will hopefully lead to the ultimate prize have we made the necessary changes to our game style and playing group to make this jump?

What's working?

* Clearances & contested ball wins:

From being a team that was known as a bunch of front running downhill skiers ( we still are by the nuffies of the footy world) we are now a hard & formidable team when it comes to our contested ball winning ability and clearance work. Boyd, Cross and the Hudson/ Minson combo give us our in & under strength and are ably backed up by Ward & Gia. In Cooney & Griffen we have 2 of the best 'burst' players in the competition who use strength, speed & power to break clear of the clearance area.

We have shown over the past few years and even more this year that we can match the best in this much important area, but as of right now it hasn't quite been enough, but we do know that we won't be bullied in this area.

* Backline:

One of Rodney Eade's great achievements within his time as coach has been the moulding of our defensive group. Thinking back to the period thru 2005-7 we really struggled in defence, but Eade allowed this group to grow and develop by plunging them into the deep end. Our defenders were forced to go one on one and were often out-sized and even out-skilled, but this 'tough love' has been paid back in spades with the group we now have.

The group has now matured such that it contains 3 All Australians (Lake, Morris & Gilbee) and another 2 (Harbrow & Hargrave) who have been or are close to the mark. We have the 2nd best ranked defnce now in terms of points against and while some credit most go to our defensive structures, most is/ should be heaped upon our defence.

Williams gives us some much need size and adds to our flexibility and in the past 5 or 6 weeks we have added Wood & Murphy to our defensive group which has been a great success. As well as adding excellent defensive skills they also add run, carry & creativity to the back half. We did look a little predictable with the way we released the ball from defence thru the first half of the season, but we now have great flexibility.


What isn't?

* Forward set-up:

I am not convinced that our current forward set-up and the players within it (on current form) have what it takes to beat the high quality teams. With our team looking quite settled I believe the following forward set-up will be the one we will take into the finals:

HF: Gia, Grant, Ward
F: Higgins, Hall, Johnson

Will this group kick us to a flag? I'm doubtful, here's why...

- Not enough variety - Only Hall & Grant offer something different.
- Higgins & Johnson are obviously struggling with their bodies and aren't playing the type of footy we expect (need?) from them. Both have issues with pace, ball use and defensive efforts.
- We don't have enough players who can take overhead or one on one marks.
- Opposing teams will sit on Hall, they know how good he is when has space... they won't allow us this luxury. While we can still rack up cricket like scores against the poor teams we do struggle to kick goals against the good teams and we do rely on Barry more so than any other player.

How to fix? -

- On current form not all of Johnson, Higgins & Gia can play - we need something different up forward. Hill is the obvious one as he has some unique abilities, but he needs to show he can compete with the best which he hasn't thus far. I guess it would be a big call to play him (or Everitt), but I think it's a risk we might have to take.
- I believe in our current (or perhaps any other) set-up Grant is the key. He has genuine pace and if used cleverly by blocking for him he will be able to find space within our F50 and with his hands we know the ball will finish with him. A big call, but he is one player through physical characteristics who will be able to get separation from his opponent. His kicking for goal will be crucial as I have no doubt he will be presented with plenty of opportunities.
- We must be daring with our use of Lake & Murphy up forward. We have seen all year that they make a real difference to our forward line. Murphy loves the space of the MCG and must be used wisely. Lake offers Hall some cover and will mean teams can't zone off which will be especially important against St.Kilda and Collingwood.

I guess one important factor will be how we use the ball going forward, but one would think that the opposition will not allow a heap of quality ball going forward so that may mean lots of ground balls, etc so we need to be prepared and pick a team for that.

* Defensive transition:

Our ability to stop the opposition on the rebound is a great concern. Our current forwards as a group is pretty slow and they don't offer great offensive pressure. As recently as a few weeks back we were the worst ranked team in the competition for tackles inside F50... that's not good enough.

Once the ball is cleared from this area we have a midfield group that generally is pretty poor at finding a man and pressuring the opposition to create a turnover. In a sense they are pretty unaccountable. Boyd, Cooney & Griffen seem lost in the transition from attack to defence and seem to mill around looking to guard space rather than to find a man. This may be a direct instruction, but the lack of real intensity they show in this part of the game isn't up to scratch. Cross generally for-goes hunting a man and heads back to defence to block up space for the oppositions forwards, but the out-numbering this creates in the middle means the ball travels further than it could if he was helping out.

Our one saviour is Liam Picken who works (runs) just as hard in defence as he does in offence. He sets the example which I wish others would follow. He is a gem.

We cannot allow the competitions big guns to have so much space thru the middle part of ground as it will place too much pressure on our defence. I have faith in our defence to hold steady, but they need more help from their team-mates further afield.

What's been lacking in previous finals matches and games against the big guns:

* Game-breakers:

We need the likes of Cooney & Griffen to continue their rise and make September their own. Griffen has been a solid contributor in previous finals, but Cooney has been a little quiet, he needs to stamp his authority on September. Our other mid’s will need to work hard to ‘free’ these 2 up by blocking for them at the contested areas, these selfless acts will be important. Our other jet is Lake who's form is a given, but he will need to rise again as both our rock in defence and our pinch hitter going forward.

* Win the key moments:

Our team and especially our game-breakers need to win the key moments. Ablett, Chapman, Hodge, Franklin, Riewoldt & Hayes have all shown in the past that they can step up at crucial times to ensure their team wins finals. We have had no player stamp their authority in this way and that needs to change. (I have purposely left out Collingwood players as they are in the same boat as us)

To ensure we win these key moments we will need our players to stick to our structures and game plans and especially concentrate when things get close. We can't afford to have past errors (think St.Kilda & Hawthorn clashes) rear their ugly heads as it can and has cost us close matches.... We need to be better than that.

Where does that leave us?

While it has been nice to get some confidence over the past 3 weeks with some comfortable wins (and we will probably have another one this week) I still feel there are some under-lying problems that could hold us back. These problems may be just in my imagination and we will step-up to the plate come finals time, but if they aren't I hope they have been noted and will be addressed sooner rather than later.

We have shown the ability in the past week to make the tough (and correct) call. I hope we can, if needed, make a couple more as I think our season may depend upon it.

I have always favoured a strong defence and that has been a big factor this year, as you rightly suggested. Higgins, Gia and Johnson do not exude a great deal of confidence up forward. Liam Jones could well be the X factor at centre half forward replacing Mitch Hahn. Grant isn't physically equipped to play just yet at centre half forward. Whilst Murphy has been great at half back we do miss his class up forward. Against the major finals contenders it would be too risky to contemplate playing Lake up forward for any length of time. Roughead gives us height as a marking forward when resting and provides an option to Barry Hall whose best work is done as a leading forward.

[Greystache]

Thats not really fair on johno. The role he was playing for us pre-2009 (undersized FF) was only out of necessity. If you want to judge him, judge him by the role he will play for us this year which is essentially the same as last years - half forward flanker

His last 5 games for us last year were against two top 4 sides (geelong and the pies) in rounds 21 and 22, and then 3 finals. His stats were:

poss, marks, score
22, 10, 2.2
22, 7, 4.2
15, 2, 2.2
26, 4, -,-
19, 6, 2.0

That is pretty respectable from any half forward, and if fit, there is no reason not to expect those kinds of performances this year as well. (edit: and pretty sure he had a bung shoulder during last years finals series, or was that the year before?)

Not sure what part of finals against top 4 teams you missed, coincidentally they were the two out of that 5 that were his poorest. 11 games across 17 years is not a small sample, and his history shows 1 game of more than 20 possessions and 13 goals in total. He is a consistent top performer in H&A footy but fails to stand up when we've needed him most.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I have always favoured a strong defence and that has been a big factor this year, as you rightly suggested. Higgins, Gia and Johnson do not exude a great deal of confidence up forward. Liam Jones could well be the X factor at centre half forward replacing Mitch Hahn.

Talk about 20 game rule.

[mjp]

Talk about 20 game rule.

I think Grant still qualifies under the 20-game rule. Mentioning Jones is just a bridge too far.

I am actually pretty happy with the structure of the forward line at the moment - the injury to Mitch and termination of Aker pretty much got me what I wanted...more run into the side. I am not convinced on the 'Play Jones' idea, but will happily admit that the kid needs a couple of games into him in 2010 if he is going to be of any use in 2011...so fine.

Defensive transition? Yeah. I think the comments are a tad harsh in most cases - it isn't as if Hodge, Mitchell, Swan, Ablett etc work any harder in this area than the likes of Cooney or Griffen...they do the same thing our guys do - run to space and hope that this positions them to:

1/.Take an intercepting mark.
2/.Break into space going back the other way.

I am finding it tough to be critical at the current moment. My remaining question - will we play with some real adventure when the pressure is on - wont be answered for weeks.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Great thread.

The key to our side is flexibility. We're not going to find a quality small forward at this stage of the year, nor will Jones or Roughead be able to cement a position. What we do have is a number of players that can play a variety of positions. IMO the other top sides don't quite have the same luxury and are more 'settled', if that makes sense.

Lake will spend the majority of his time down back but he can certainly pinch hit up forward. That might be the difference between losing by 7 points to St. Kilda in a PF and getting over the line. Harbrow can switch between back and midfield - something we've been doing over the past few weeks. He can go up forward too, although that's rare these days.

Murphy's best position is off half back but considering Higgins, Johnson and Gia aren't at their best - he will probably have to spend more time forward. I'd think he'll start the finals series across half back, but if we aren't getting the job done up forward he'll be the first change we make.

Gilbee can push up to a wing and at times will hover across half forward. His best position is by far in the back half, but it gives us options. With Lake, Morris, Williams, Hargrave, Wood, Harbrow and Murphy - we have some serious flexibility and should be able to cover for one another.

As others have said, another key point is how our midfield and forwards perform defensively under pressure. We cannot allow sides to run in waves through the middle part of the ground. We don't play 'zones' well enough either, I'd prefer to see us go man on man in these situations. As Mantis explained - Cooney and Griff (among a few others) tend to get lost. Picken and Cross are the only two who make a concentrated effort to defend on the rebound. Our disposal efficiency is another area we need to improve - it was dreadful against Hawthorn.

We have the tools to light up September, but we have to keep an open book in front of us. We have to be willing to swap the side around and take risks. If we go in with the same set-up as 08/09 - we'll get the same result.

Cooney, Griffen, Lake and Murphy are our most important players heading into this finals series. All are capable of breaking games open.

[BulldogBelle]

Great thread with lots of good reads.

Higgins was included amongst the best payers by some reporters last week. His form is gradually improving, its possible that he will be counted amongst the best few in the next couple of matches. Also keep in mind that Higgins often goes into the centre bounce, this is a place that you wouldn't put Brad Johnson.

Brad Johnson goes into each match with an Achilles tendon injury and takes up extra valuable recovery time on the interchange bench. I don't think that he is in our best 22. But regardless, I think that we can still win the Premiership with BJ in the side.

I think that we have 3 players who could replace Johnson - this I know is unlikely to happen.

1. Andres Everitt, has speed, marking ability, tackling - can do it all
2. Liam Jones, I think will take more time to develop, but can take a good grab.
3. Patrick Rose, would need a rookie upgrade but looks the goods for that clever and nippy forward. If he is going to be tried we had better move fast. Anybody who wants to see his recent form go to http://www.abc.net.au/iview/ you will find it under All Programs / Sport. If you can't access it then your IP doesn't supply it.

Josh Hill is just not having an impact at VFL level and I would not consider him at the moment.

[w3design]

Not sure what part of finals against top 4 teams you missed, coincidentally they were the two out of that 5 that were his poorest. 11 games across 17 years is not a small sample, and his history shows 1 game of more than 20 possessions and 13 goals in total. He is a consistent top performer in H&A footy but fails to stand up when we've needed him most.

I don't think possessions are the only measuring stick of Jono's performances in finals. I felt for example he had an enormous impact in the Sydney 08 final when he took a huge hit and then came back on and showed great courage to knock the ball on for a crucial goal just before half time. At that point we were no certainties to win that game and our club and especially our leaders had been rightly criticised for the shocker v hawks the week before. I thought he also played with manic intensity in the St Kilda PF and was one of our best even if numbers were not high.

Having said that, he obviously can't play the same roles he has for us any more. I saw on Fox footy that he has electric shock therapy, unbelievably painful, every week on his achilles. I think he is still a week-to-week proposition just to play.

Anyway thanks for your post Mantis, I think pretty much everything was spot on, though I'd like to believe we have improved, and the last three weeks there've been great signs, we haven't showed yet this year that the things that undo us in finals have been addressed.

[Mantis]

I am actually pretty happy with the structure of the forward line at the moment - the injury to Mitch and termination of Aker pretty much got me what I wanted...more run into the side. I am not convinced on the 'Play Jones' idea, but will happily admit that the kid needs a couple of games into him in 2010 if he is going to be of any use in 2011...so fine..

I would be happier if the players within the structure were playing a little better.... but the make-up is fine.


Defensive transition? Yeah. I think the comments are a tad harsh in most cases - it isn't as if Hodge, Mitchell, Swan, Ablett etc work any harder in this area than the likes of Cooney or Griffen...they do the same thing our guys do - run to space and hope that this positions them to:

1/.Take an intercepting mark.
2/.Break into space going back the other way.

I am reasonably happy with the defensive efforts of Cooney & Griffen as they must be used as our attacking weapons and as part of this role they will find themselves pushing the ball inside our F50 so it's probably a little unfair to expect them to be able to contribute significantly in the area's I discussed, but they can improve no doubt.

I was probably pointing the finger more at the likes of Boyd, Cross, Moles and Higgins who need to sharpen up defensively. The ability of these players to qwell the influence of the likes of Swan, Pendlebury, Hayes, Dal santo, Selwood & Bartel could well determine how far we go this year and I hope they are up for the challenge.

I guess opposing fans would be thinking that they have to stop Cross & Boyd as they are ball magnets, but I feel their use of the ball isn't quite as damaging as the players mentioned so they probably need to do a little more defensively to bridge the gap.

[Greystache]

I don't think possessions are the only measuring stick of Jono's performances in finals. I felt for example he had an enormous impact in the Sydney 08 final when he took a huge hit and then came back on and showed great courage to knock the ball on for a crucial goal just before half time. At that point we were no certainties to win that game and our club and especially our leaders had been rightly criticised for the shocker v hawks the week before.

I'm not sure how I can say it any more clearly A FINAL AGAINST A TOP 4 TEAM. ie top 4, the teams that win and play in the Grand Final according to history.

[bornadog]

I have always favoured a strong defence and that has been a big factor this year, as you rightly suggested. Higgins, Gia and Johnson do not exude a great deal of confidence up forward. Liam Jones could well be the X factor at centre half forward replacing Mitch Hahn. Grant isn't physically equipped to play just yet at centre half forward. Whilst Murphy has been great at half back we do miss his class up forward. Against the major finals contenders it would be too risky to contemplate playing Lake up forward for any length of time. Roughead gives us height as a marking forward when resting and provides an option to Barry Hall whose best work is done as a leading forward.

Gia has contributed 19 goals plus 18 assists (ranked 3rd in the AFL) as well as contributed 55 inside 50's. His delivery to players is outstanding, so you should have confidence in him.

I can't believe people are talking about Jones as an X factor. His impact in AFL is still a few years away.

[BulldogBelle]

I'll tell you who is not the real deal and that is poor old Collingwood. The footy gods have struck another blow this week with a curse on Collingwood's chance of winning the GF. And, as we are set the meet Collingwood in the GF well, there can only be one result.

It was Archangel Kevinnius Sheedyiticus who told Collingwood that they could not win the premiership flag because they had no stars. All of the Woods players heard it. Too late to get it out of their minds with a rebuttal. Its gone into their subconscious. Thus they are losers. They think they are losers and so they have already lost. (This is a well-known phrase from Losers 1:1.)

To strengthen this further an article has just come out by a minor saint questioning how such a bunch of low draft picks and mid-talent players can be so close to winning a premiership (or words like that). This is another kiss of death. Another statement telling them they are losers, to occupy their sub-conscious minds until GF day when it will realise itself.

Then there was the shimmy by Didak after his goal against Richmond. Very exciting for Collingwood fans but denigrating to Richmond. It follows that other clubs will not want to see that against them either. Its very bad Karma for Collingwood. A terrible, terrible sin to denigrate the opposition. Remember Judas Brown doing such a thing when he played for the Bulldogs, we lost every match where he denigrated the opposition. So it will happen to Collingwood, Karma will catch them and there is nothing they can do about it.

[Mofra]

I'll tell you who is not the real deal and that is poor old Collingwood. The footy gods have struck another blow this week with a curse on Collingwood's chance of winning the GF. And, as we are set the meet Collingwood in the GF well, there can only be one result.
We will meet the in round 1 of the finals and I am pretty confident this time around. They have maintained some very good form, we have improved markedly since our two meetings earlier this year and are a quicker side with the likes of Grant, Wood and Murphy in the side.

[Mofra]

The key to our side is flexibility. We're not going to find a quality small forward at this stage of the year, nor will Jones or Roughead be able to cement a position. What we do have is a number of players that can play a variety of positions. IMO the other top sides don't quite have the same luxury and are more 'settled', if that makes sense.
Cooney & Griffen have genuine burst pace, and can rest forward occasionally against teams that can be exposed by a quicker forwardline (ie Geelong). Gia, and Higgins regaining form, can pinch hit in the middle which will facilitate this into our normal rotations through the midfield so we don't lose too much drive.

[w3design]

I can't believe people are talking about Jones as an X factor. His impact in AFL is still a few years away.

Yes, I'd be stunned if he was in the side come finals (pleasantly stunned, of course). We do need to get some games into him but, like Grant last year, it may only be the one.

It's a pity we've lost so many of those close games this year because it doesn't leave us much breathing space. It'd be good to be loading up on training now and also resting some players but I don't know if we have that luxury with 4th spot still we'll and truly up for grabs. It'd be interesting to know how the club is managing that balance.

James Cumming has been getting stuck into Johnno, and I must say I expect this to be his last year, but Johnno does need to be given every opportunity to get right as I think his form could be the "x-factor" we are looking for.

[Mantis]

We will meet the in round 1 of the finals and I am pretty confident this time around. They have maintained some very good form, we have improved markedly since our two meetings earlier this year and are a quicker side with the likes of Grant, Wood and Murphy in the side.

Without Lake and Murphy playing forward I can't see us kicking enough goals against the Pies.

[The Underdog]

I'll tell you who is not the real deal and that is poor old Collingwood...

It was Archangel Kevinnius Sheedyiticus who told Collingwood that they could not win the premiership flag because they had no stars. All of the Woods players heard it. Too late to get it out of their minds with a rebuttal. Its gone into their subconscious. Thus they are losers. They think they are losers and so they have already lost. (This is a well-known phrase from Losers 1:1.)



I can't see how a team performing at their level and who are have clearly out worked us and beaten us on 2 occasions this year can be written off. They are a top 4 side with a strong midfield and a forward structure that has clearly troubled us in the past.

And if they're listening to anything Kevin Sheedy says these days then they'd be the only ones. He's as irrelevant as they come. A pure figurehead to try to drum up business in an AFL wasteland, he'll say anything to keep his name in the paper's. If you want to worry about a team's mental fragility in tight situation's, you might want to look a little closer to home. We have much to prove.

[Mofra]

Without Lake and Murphy playing forward I can't see us kicking enough goals against the Pies.
I think we will rotate players through the forwardline.
Hall, Johnson and Grant will play permanent forward - every other position can be taken by different players at different times.

[stefoid]

Not sure what part of finals against top 4 teams you missed, coincidentally they were the two out of that 5 that were his poorest. 11 games across 17 years is not a small sample, and his history shows 1 game of more than 20 possessions and 13 goals in total. He is a consistent top performer in H&A footy but fails to stand up when we've needed him most.

I didnt miss anything -- the size of the sample isnt relevant - its the context. Ancient history isnt relevent. Good on you for going back 17 years, but who cares? Dumping on him in the context of failing to kick bags in pressuized finals as a midget FF a couple years ago - also not fair and not relevent to the role he will play for us in the future.

If you want a fair and relevent comparison of his ability to perform in pressure games and finals, look at his recent performances in pressurized games and finals playing the role then that he will be playing now.

[Mantis]

I think we will rotate players through the forwardline.
Hall, Johnson and Grant will play permanent forward - every other position can be taken by different players at different times.

Not convinced on that Mof.

Playing the devil's advocate I would say that Hall will have a very hard time on Presti, Johnson who doesn't look to be the player he was just 9 months ago when he gave H.Shaw a touch up will struggle on any of their defenders and Grant will be challeneged physically by O'Brien or Maxwell.

The only time I thought we looked dangerous against Collingwood back in rd 11 was when Lake went forward and made a few of their 'zoners' accountable, but as previously posted our form & personnel has changed a bit since then so things will no doubt be different next time around.

There is much to look forward to and a fair bit to discuss and ponder in good time.

[Mofra]

Not convinced on that Mof.

Playing the devil's advocate I would say that Hall will have a very hard time on Presti, Johnson who doesn't look to be the player he was just 9 months ago when he gave H.Shaw a touch up will struggle on any of their defenders and Grant will be challeneged physically by O'Brien or Maxwell.

The only time I thought we looked dangerous against Collingwood back in rd 11 was when Lake went forward and made a few of their 'zoners' accountable, but as previously posted our form & personnel has changed a bit since then so things will no doubt be different next time around.

There is much to look forward to and a fair bit to discuss and ponder in good time.
I have to raise one point here: Nick Maxwell. Last two games he was on Hahn, ran off and (with Harry O) cut us to shreds on the rebound. It allowed their fast midfielders to play ahead of the ball to kill us on the turnover.
In round 1 we played Griff 20m behind the pack and that stopped their midfield breaks after qtr time, but the HB drive kept Collingwood in front of us.

If we rotate quicker players through we have more chance of locking the ball in the F50 in any disputed situation; Lake will drift forward when he can (especially if we have a fit Tommy; Morris has played on Cloke, Tommy takes Dawes) to mix it up provided he leads at the ball and doesn't do the half-hearted jog with one arm in the air he has done on occasion.

[Mantis]

If we rotate quicker players through we have more chance of locking the ball in the F50 in any disputed situation; Lake will drift forward when he can (especially if we have a fit Tommy; Morris has played on Cloke, Tommy takes Dawes) to mix it up provided he leads at the ball and doesn't do the half-hearted jog with one arm in the air he has done on occasion.

Cooney & Griffen?

I agree this would help, but we would severely lack their drive thru the midfield if/ when this happened, but if this move happened when these 2 were going to be rested we might be able to get away with it..... It's going to be a big juggling act isn't it?

I guess we can talk about this more when we are actually going to play the Pies, but it's all interesting stuff to discuss.

[Ozza]

wow!

I agree with most of it.

Eade has been tweaking the team the whole year. Murph and Wood to the backline is a big win, particularly Murph. Earlier in the year we were looking solid but stagnant back there, but Murph in particular is so creative and runs the lines and now we have harbrow, gilbee and murph back there running the ball out - they cant tag of all them.

The bonus there is that the extra creative player (murph) can release harbrow in bursts to the midfield where his bursts could potentially cut the opposition up. We should be giving him as much time in the middle as he/we can in the leadup to the finals.

And we can send Lake forward in bursts too when we are desperate for a goal.

I think the skills through the centre of the ground under pressure have also been lacking - tag griffen and he coughs it up. Cooney too has been burning a lot of his possessions. they are our game breakers and they both need to lift coming into the finals if we are to make the granny.

Agreed, we are still in the process of rejigging the forward line. Hall, Grant, Johno (if fit) and Gia are locks. Both Gias and Johnos experience at being in the right place at the right time is something we cant just replace by bringing in some kid.
Eade is giving Jones a run so obviously he is still shuffling the deckchairs in that regard also.

The bolded parts are both terriffic points. Nice one.

[Mofra]

Cooney & Griffen?

I agree this would help, but we would severely lack their drive thru the midfield if/ when this happened, but if this move happened when these 2 were going to be rested we might be able to get away with it..... It's going to be a big juggling act isn't it?
True, and the coaching staff will earn their bikkies coming up to this finals series - having these two out of the centre at the same time would require a juggling act with other postions ie I'd want it to be during Hudson's ruck time (excellent at winning contests after the bouce) and during a time when one of our better ball users has pushed up the ground a little too.

[Ozza]

Not sure what part of finals against top 4 teams you missed, coincidentally they were the two out of that 5 that were his poorest. 11 games across 17 years is not a small sample, and his history shows 1 game of more than 20 possessions and 13 goals in total. He is a consistent top performer in H&A footy but fails to stand up when we've needed him most.

I don't really agree at all that Johnson has failed to stand up in finals. Finals are tough games, opponents are better and raw stats are not always a great indication on how players go - particularly if you are exclusively looking at matches against top 4 teams - which you have done. The games tend to involve more contested possession and more often than not lower scores - so possession counts and goal tallies shouldn't be judged directly against H&A tallies.

Looking at Johno's record and remembering the matches - there are a few performances of note - and I'm sorry if they weren't ALL against top 4 sides - sometimes the sides were 5th or 6th etc - but they were all times we needed good performances; and the context of the teams performance is relevant.

- As an 18y.o kid Johnno kicked a couple against the Dees when we were beaten by 70-odd points.
- In 98 - he had 20 touches or over in both finals. Despite us getting thrashed in the prelim he had 20 and 2 goals.
- In 99 we lost both finals but Johnno had 27 possies v WCE and 23 and a goal v Brisbane.
and in 2000 when smashed by the Lions, he had 19.
In 2006 he had 25 possies and a goal in our first finals win for 8 years, and then kicked 3 of our teams 5 goals vs WCE.

In 2008 he played well against Geelong in the Prelim, 18 possies and a goal from deep forward, in 2009 he found a couple of goals against Geelong and then a couple more as an undersized target against St.Kilda's crowded backline.

[Ghost Dog]

I have to raise one point here: Nick Maxwell. Last two games he was on Hahn, ran off and (with Harry O) cut us to shreds on the rebound. It allowed their fast midfielders to play ahead of the ball to kill us on the turnover.
In round 1 we played Griff 20m behind the pack and that stopped their midfield breaks after qtr time, but the HB drive kept Collingwood in front of us.

If we rotate quicker players through we have more chance of locking the ball in the F50 in any disputed situation; Lake will drift forward when he can (especially if we have a fit Tommy; Morris has played on Cloke, Tommy takes Dawes) to mix it up provided he leads at the ball and doesn't do the half-hearted jog with one arm in the air he has done on occasion.

I think Dawes will be too strong for Tommy, but I am happy to be proven wrong.
Our tackles inside our F50 are the worst in the league? I seem to recall reading a stat on that posted by someone else. Something to do with our slow forward line.

Laughed at the half hearted job with one arm in the air bit. So true! It's like he's playing footy on the oval at school. :)

[Mantis]

Bump.

Key points:

1/ Clearances - Got smacked last night, no Cooney & Huddo hurt, but we looked dreadfully slow and un-organised.

2/ Backline - The opposition kicked 25 goals yet 3 of our best 4 or 5 players were defenders. They aren't the problem.

3/ Forwards - Horrible!! Can't beat their opponents and more importantly don't pick up a man, chase or tackle.

4/ Defensive transition - Pathetic - How the hell can you allow players of the quality that Geelong have at their disposal waltz around by themselves. They put us to the sword.

[mighty_west]

Bump.

Key points:

1/ Clearances - Got smacked last night, no Cooney & Huddo hurt, but we looked dreadfully slow and un-organised.

2/ Backline - The opposition kicked 25 goals yet 3 of our best 4 or 5 players were defenders. They aren't the problem.

3/ Forwards - Horrible!! Can't beat their opponents and more importantly don't pick up a man, chase or tackle.

4/ Defensive transition - Pathetic - How the hell can you allow players of the quality that Geelong have at their disposal waltz around by themselves. They put us to the sword.

There was one piece of play who i thought initially was Wodjinski, intercept in the middle, and burst through with a bounce and running goal, it was actually bloody Selwood, we made him look like Usain Bolt!!!!!

Which forwards do you speak of? I thought Jones was good again with his pressure, especially early on [i lost focus on everything really after half time], Barry is usually very good as well, but we were also missing grant, who has also been good in this area.

[Jasper]

Bump.

Key points:

1/ Clearances - Got smacked last night, no Cooney & Huddo hurt, but we looked dreadfully slow and un-organised.

2/ Backline - The opposition kicked 25 goals yet 3 of our best 4 or 5 players were defenders. They aren't the problem.

3/ Forwards - Horrible!! Can't beat their opponents and more importantly don't pick up a man, chase or tackle.

4/ Defensive transition - Pathetic - How the hell can you allow players of the quality that Geelong have at their disposal waltz around by themselves. They put us to the sword.

Mate, I reckon you are letting our defenders off lightly, Lake's performance was one of his worst - Darcy attributed 8 of Geelong's first 11 goals to Lake errors. Hargrave repeatedly turned it over.

And while I agree on our defensive pressure lacking with the forwards, put yourself in their shoes, you work and work, get some space, and then some clown like Eagle kicks it to the boundary and puts it out on the full under no pressure at all. Or Ward miskicks into the centre. Or one of Boyd's many turnovers. Or Higgins kicks the ball...noting he seemed to give up and just handball as the game went on.

Our forwards look worse than they are because our poor delivery forward makes them look hopelessly out of position.

All in all this game was not a true indicator of our form. It did however expose our flaws in greater depth. During Geelong's run, we kicking at around 25% efficiency. This in my view is our biggest problem.

[bornadog]

Mate, I reckon you are letting our defenders off lightly, Lake's performance was one of his worst - Darcy attributed 8 of Geelong's first 11 goals to Lake errors. Hargrave repeatedly turned it over.

.

Bit Harsh on Lake when he was injured and playing under sufferance.

[Mantis]

Which forwards do you speak of? I thought Jones was good again with his pressure, especially early on [i lost focus on everything really after half time], Barry is usually very good as well, but we were also missing grant, who has also been good in this area.

Gia, Eagleton, Johnson and Higgins were all poor in this area.

[The Pie Man]

Gia, Eagleton, Johnson and Higgins were all poor in this area.

Is Gia the only one safe of those four for the next 3-6 weeks?

Higgins will be out injured, so that's a forced out....Eagle you can realistically see being dropped.....which brings me to the skipper. Is a tough call around the corner?

[Mantis]

Is Gia the only one safe of those four for the next 3-6 weeks?

Higgins will be out injured, so that's a forced out....Eagle you can realistically see being dropped.....which brings me to the skipper. Is a tough call around the corner?

Gia played a good one, but he gave Enright too much space early on.

Sadly Johnno looks cooked.

[The Pie Man]

Gia played a good one, but he gave Enright too much space early on.

Sadly Johnno looks cooked.

I agree - with both the point and the sentiment.

[SonofScray]

Johnno looked lame again late last night. The body just isn't letting him do what he needs to be a very good contributor. Two weeks ago he looked like it was coming back a bit, not so last night. Hate seeing it, hate saying it.

[bornadog]

Johnno looked lame again late last night. The body just isn't letting him do what he needs to be a very good contributor. Two weeks ago he looked like it was coming back a bit, not so last night. Hate seeing it, hate saying it.

Only nine disposals for the game.

[LostDoggy]

Johnno looked lame again late last night. The body just isn't letting him do what he needs to be a very good contributor. Two weeks ago he looked like it was coming back a bit, not so last night. Hate seeing it, hate saying it.

Turns like mack truck these days, i hope he can back to some good form for finals.

[Ghost Dog]

I have to raise one point here: Nick Maxwell. Last two games he was on Hahn, ran off and (with Harry O) cut us to shreds on the rebound. It allowed their fast midfielders to play ahead of the ball to kill us on the turnover.
In round 1 we played Griff 20m behind the pack and that stopped their midfield breaks after qtr time, but the HB drive kept Collingwood in front of us.

If we rotate quicker players through we have more chance of locking the ball in the F50 in any disputed situation; Lake will drift forward when he can (especially if we have a fit Tommy; Morris has played on Cloke, Tommy takes Dawes) to mix it up provided he leads at the ball and doesn't do the half-hearted jog with one arm in the air he has done on occasion.

If we hit targets as poorly as we did V Geelong, none of this will matter.

[Mantis]

Mate, I reckon you are letting our defenders off lightly, Lake's performance was one of his worst - Darcy attributed 8 of Geelong's first 11 goals to Lake errors. Hargrave repeatedly turned it over.

And while I agree on our defensive pressure lacking with the forwards, put yourself in their shoes, you work and work, get some space, and then some clown like Eagle kicks it to the boundary and puts it out on the full under no pressure at all. Or Ward miskicks into the centre. Or one of Boyd's many turnovers. Or Higgins kicks the ball...noting he seemed to give up and just handball as the game went on.

Our forwards look worse than they are because our poor delivery forward makes them look hopelessly out of position.

All in all this game was not a true indicator of our form. It did however expose our flaws in greater depth. During Geelong's run, we kicking at around 25% efficiency. This in my view is our biggest problem.

Agree with most of this.

Lake was very poor and Hargrave was worse, he was like a trained robot with his kicking.

And yes our field kicking was shitful, but our forwards couldn't beat their oppoenents in one on one battles, went to ground in the contest too often, slipped off tackles and refused to pick up their man when we were getting ripped apart. If all else is failing I would think that each player should just go to a man and try and best him for the next few minutes or even just the next contest, but we still tried to play 'flashy' footy and got pulled a part with ease.

[westdog54]

Its been discussed to death but Saturday night proved one thing. We may be top 4 but the top 3 are way way ahead of us.

Hargrave and Lake were shocking but their efforts I'm happy to write off as one off abominations. Midfield pressure was non existent for the most part and the forward structure simply collapsed, going both ways.

Statements need to be made for the next 2 matches, on the field moreso than in the selection room.

I think you can easily slot Jones into that forward six going forward. The question of who he replaces is harder to give an answer for, and sadly barring injuries I don't have it. Higgins will be out which will give Jones a good crack at it.

[Ozza]

There was one piece of play who i thought initially was Wodjinski, intercept in the middle, and burst through with a bounce and running goal, it was actually bloody Selwood, we made him look like Usain Bolt!!!!!


Higgins was putting on the chase...he would make me look like Wojinski for pace!