What does last night do to our finals aspirations?

[GVGjr]

Over the last month or so we have been building up towards a top 4 finish and I guess we have been building up our confidence of the playing group and the supporters.

My questions are around what will last night debacle do to our finals aspirations this year?

We can cut the side some slack because we had a few key players with injuries and we can also make some allowances for the flu that a number of players were carrying but how does the club manage to rebuild the side with the confidence and belief that they can win the flag and not necessarily just be there to make up the numbers?

A 2nd question is for our supporters, do you still rate us as a genuine flag chance and if so, what is the main trigger for that vote of confidence?

[Go_Dogs]

I'm honestly not overly concerned with the outcome of last nights game (I didn't watch it, so perhaps that's why!) and I wasn't earlier in the week either.

Obviously getting belted isn't a good result, but that's what can happen when you're slightly off.

And as much as a win last night would've been good (or even not getting belted) but what would it have proved? We won the corresponding game last year and patted ourselves on the back. We've still got a few weeks now to find our best football which we haven't for the majority of the year.

Redemption is there for the taking, and I believe in the resolve of this group to make it happen this year.

[bornadog]

Certainly does put a dent in the players confidence and its up to the coaches to try and instill it back in them. I think Rocket's challenge to the group that the loss was humilating and embarressing could spur them on to atone the defeat and go on from here. Certainly Geelong must have felt that way after the Collingwood loss.

As a supporter I am still confident we can get to the Granny, and then anything can happen. I look at the season as a whole and we have been extremly competitive , even in our losses and considering for most of the season, we haven't had our best team on the ground.

I think we now have a good balance, although I would love one more running type of player (doesn't exist), that would help us go all the way.

Last night was a football lesson, in that, if you are a few percent off the boil against the better sides, you get smashed. To win the premiership, you have to keep up the intensity for 100% of the game and not just play in bursts.

[LostDoggy]

While Geelong made us look very ordinary last night, the same can be said about the cats the week before v the pies. People only really remember the last game played and what happens in the H & A season, really has no relevence in the finals. Look at 2008 and 2009 when we beat the hawks and the cats, meant nothing.

If we can finish the season of strongly with good wins against the swans and bombers, we will go into the finals confidently.

Last night we just didn't work hard enough and pretty much let the cats do what ever they wanted, no doubt due to a few very valid reasons.

We make TOP 4 anything can happen!

[Rocco Jones]

It's all about the confidence dent. The all Vic top 4 means everyone starts in the same boat come September. Last night was the only game we have been uncompetitive all season.

We have played two games against Collingwood. Round 1 we lost by about 5 goals and the 2nd time around we made a late charge to lose by 9 points or so. I think the latter result flattered us a bit but we were also missing a few players and truly dominated them for a while.

I truly believe we can be at least competitive against the Saints.

Despite last night we have also been at least very competitive the previous 4 encounters.

If the players can get over it, I think last night's result means very little. A huge if though.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

As perverse at it sounds, it could take some pressure off in the finals. Providing we can bounce back in the final two weeks and ensure we don't limp into 4th spot, and providing the groups confidence can be patched up, noone will rate us a chance, based on our 0-4 record against the top 3 sides.
The guys can go into the finals knowing that noone expects them to win, including the opposition and can hopefully surprise the opposition....................... I'm allowed to hope aren't I?????

[Mantis]

My biggest gripe from last nights game was (is) our inability to change the course of action when things aren't going our way, as evidenced by Geelong kicking 13 goals straight thru the 1st & 2nd qtrs.

We seem to just except what is happening and our leaders don't make a 'stand'.

Until that changes we aren't going to make the jump from top 4 team to top 2 team.

[GVGjr]

My biggest gripe from last nights game was (is) our inability to change the course of action when things aren't going our way, as evidenced by Geelong kicking 13 goals straight thru the 1st & 2nd qtrs.

We seem to just except what is happening and our leaders don't make a 'stand'.

Until that changes we aren't going to make the jump from top 4 team to top 2 team.

Are we prepared to make the hard call on some players with, lets say, questionable big game temperaments?

[Mantis]

Are we prepared to make the hard call on some players with, lets say, questionable big game temperaments?

I hope we are.

[Rocco Jones]

We seem to just except what is happening and our leaders don't make a 'stand'.


Which 'leaders'?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

My biggest gripe from last nights game was (is) our inability to change the course of action when things aren't going our way, as evidenced by Geelong kicking 13 goals straight thru the 1st & 2nd qtrs.

We seem to just except what is happening and our leaders don't make a 'stand'.

Until that changes we aren't going to make the jump from top 4 team to top 2 team.

Agree. For the first 15 minutes of the game we hassled and harried Geelong and for a minute we had duped them into thinking we believed we could hold our own. A further 10 minutes and that facade was starting to show signs of a crack.
The second Qtr, by our body language, our positioning and our execution showed that our self belief, was just a false bravado that was exposed as such by an opposition who didn't fall for our bluff.

Under severe pressure there were several otherwise good players who last night revisited the type of 'survivalist' mentality they used to exhibit during Rohdes reign.
I'm talking specifically about Hargrave, Gilbee, Lake, Boyd and even Johnno.

So many times during the onslaught last night they seemed more inclined to just get the ball away from themselves to avoid being the one who was caught. It seemed to rub off on Higgins and Ward to.

A further example of this survivalist- me first mentality shows itself in how little support we showed for our teammates whenever a Geelong player got physical with us. Noone at all flew the flag for their teammates when it was needed.

If this type of behaviour cannot be changed, then come finals time, this is just going to hurt us to no end, as the pressure levels are going to be more sustained during these games.

[mjp]

Which 'leaders'?

I thought Murphy, Gia, Morris and Cross made a stand.

Geelong were stung by the previous weekend and got themselves an old-fashioned run on going...it is not as if you can start a fight to slow them down these days.

We are still 4th - we would have been 4th had we won. Confidence is a moment to moment thing, not week to week or month to month....the biggest risk to our finals aspirations is a loss to Sydney NEXT week, not what happened last night.

Things are never as good or as bad as they seem.

[Hotdog60]

One thing I noticed last night and it's something we don't do that well, is to protect the ball carrier.

No one was prepared to sheppard and provide the block, basically not working for each other.

[GVGjr]

I hope we are.

Our track record at the trade table wouldn't suggest so. I haven't been impressed by our list management over the last two seasons believing we didn't make the hard call on a couple of guys especially at the end of last season.

Bridging that gap between a very good side and a genuine contender might require some hard calls.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Which 'leaders'?

Well, if Boyd was nominally the one who was meant to be on Ablett last night, then he should've stood up and taken it upon himself to try and organise the midifeld group who were geting smashed. Better yet he could've made a leaders call to try and quell Ablett's free reign.

He was very vocal at half time heading off the field, and was shooting filthy looks around, but he certainly did not lead by example last night.

[Rocco Jones]

I thought Murphy, Gia, Morris and Cross made a stand.

I agree, it was kinda my point (sorry if it came across as what leaders= do we have any?).

Boyd is the one that disappointed me most (not including Johnno as I don't expect much from him anymore).

[Mantis]

Which 'leaders'?

The captain, but I guess he can't anymore.

Boyd and Cross don't tighten up defensively when we are under the pump.

[Rocco Jones]

The captain, but I guess he can't anymore.

Boyd and Cross don't tighten up defensively when we are under the pump.

Probably shows more about my memory but sad that it took me awhile to think of Johnno as one of our leaders. In reality, he is nowhere near it at the moment.

[AndrewP6]

If, over the last 6 weeks we've taken 2 steps forward, last night we took 5 steps back. To start so positively and just lay down as we did was indeed embarrassing, humiliating, and points to some deep-seated issues within the list. Not skill-wise, I don't believe - we'd never be able to produce good form if skills were the issue. I think it's above the shoulders. And last night did nothing to help that - or to provide any evidence that we're not just going to make up numbers. We struggle big time against the best sides, I'd be VERY surprised if September saw any difference in that regard. :(

Of course, along with "surprised" I'd also be elated ;)

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Are we prepared to make the hard call on some players with, lets say, questionable big game temperaments?

I agree that this has always been a dilemma, compounded somewhat by the fact that the players with questionable big game temperaments, are perhaps seem as otherwise very good footballers.

I guess that actually answers the question, we are perhaps not strong enough to make the hard calls. Not prepared to take an initial step backward in order to go forward.

[BulldogBelle]

I hope I am wrong here, but I don't believe we can win the flag this year because we have developed a huge mental barrier for ourselves in not being able to win against the top 3 in both H&A and finals matches.
David King on 3AW's post game wrap up put it pretty well (and I have to agree with him)... he said that we are good at beating up on the teams below us and because of that, we will get through to another prelim, but he also said that there is a belief amongst the top 3, that if you put the dogs under enough pressure (particularly the midfield) their skills fall away.
I think we have all witnessed the dogs struggle under the most extreme pressure that the pies/cats/saints provide, and there has not been a game this season (against said 3 teams) where he have produced a performance to indicate otherwise. We won't just magically turn up and do it in the finals.....

[DOG GOD]

It will depend on the how the players go "mentally" come finals time.

C'wood we SHOULDVE beaten twice this year except for inept first qtrs.
Saints we SHOULDVE beaten as well.

Now IF we lose to the pies first week of finals, we will most likely have to play Cats in prelim, and after losing to them previously by 100 pts, i'm not sure the playing group have the resolve to "believe".

I can remember in my indoor cricket days we were the 2nd best team in the comp for numourous years, but we could never match the BEST team. We would always meet them in the grand final and lose, until one year we met them in the grand final and WON a close game.

Anything is possible as long as you are there i guess is what i'm saying, but even after beating them, the next roster we were never confident when coming up against them and i think over the years we played them we only won 3 times in 5 or so years against that team.

[Scorlibo]

We are still 4th - we would have been 4th had we won.

We would have been 2nd had we won, and probably 3rd at round's end.

[Stefcep]

Well, if Boyd was nominally the one who was meant to be on Ablett last night, then he should've stood up and taken it upon himself to try and organise the midifeld group who were geting smashed. Better yet he could've made a leaders call to try and quell Ablett's free reign.

He was very vocal at half time heading off the field, and was shooting filthy looks around, but he certainly did not lead by example last night.

Was that his instruction?

My perception of the game plan was to play our game, and let them play theirs. Well, a free Ablett is more damaging then a free Boyd. Who do you blame: Boyd or the coaching staff?

[bornadog]

We would have been 2nd had we won, and probably 3rd at round's end.

One to four, makes no difference week one of finals.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Was that his instruction?

My perception of the game plan was to play our game, and let them play theirs. Well, a free Ablett is more damaging then a free Boyd. Who do you blame: Boyd or the coaching staff?

I too was thinking from observing the game last night that we had decided to roll the dice against Ablett, however Mantis has stated in the Gameday thread that both Cross and Boyd were given negating instructions, which they seemingly did not execute.
So given that's the case I definitely blame the players.

[Flamethrower]

Last night will mean nothing in September. It is what happens during the finals that counts.

We were always going to struggle last night coming off a 6 day break after a high intensity game on a big ground in adverse conditions. On top of that a significant number of players were still in recovery mode after contracting the respiratory virus, which is draining energy wise for "Joe Public", let alone high energy professional athletes.

Last year we beat Geelong at this time of year leading into the finals - fat lot of good it did us. Hopefully losing to them this year will result in a better outcome.

[Templeton31]

I think we have to face facts. Shouldves and couldves are just mental barriers - facts are we've played Pies, Saints and Cats in 4 games for 4 losses including last nights belting. I would've thought all 3 of those sides would go into finals matches against us with no fears, in fact the opposite, thinking they had our measure easy. Coz they have. It will take the team/club to win anyway and I'm pessimistic about the chances of changes.

[ratsmac]

The cats put us back in our place, and I think forth is our place. It hurts to say but unfortunately there are clearly 3 teams that are better than us, especially when it is high stakes. Imagine that was the grand final last night. Port must of felt ten times worse than I feel right now back in 07, completely gutted. I really hope the boys prove me wrong but a prelim this year is about where I believe is about our best. I know I'm being very negetive but there are too many players that can go missing when we really need them, which keeps bringing me back to this answer.

[LostDoggy]

No team has won the premiership losing by 100 points in H&A.
Lets stop making pathetic excuses on why we got beat. Its simple we are not in the same league as the top 3 teams.

You still hang on for that little bit of hope it can happen but i hate to say it but for me last night was like we just lost another prelimanary final, season over!!!

[Chicago1]

If we would have played Geelong two weeks ago and played like we did last night, I doubt I would have booked a flight to Melbourne in time for the PFs. I haven't given up hope, but the next two weeks will really show what our players are made of. I never really gave a second thought of us not making a PF, but now I have my doubts.

For the first time this year, I didn't tip the Doggies to win. The odds just seemed to be against us, but I never would have dreamt the slaughter that occurred. That second quarter seemed to go on and on forever. What I was watching reminded me of the dark days of the early 80s when I just expected us to lose. That's the first time I've felt like that for a long, long time.

As I said earlier, I haven't given up hope, but to be honest, I feel very let down as a supporter. These days I do not expect us to lose, but if we do, at least I expect that the team has given its all. I did not feel that way regarding most of the players yesterday. I feel for the supporters who would have endured the humiliation of being at Docklands last night.

I just hope that the players respond and serve us up a tasty meal of roast Swan next weekend.http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q136/westernbulldogs1/swan_175x125.jpg

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

No team has won the premiership losing by 100 points in H&A.
Lets stop making pathetic excuses on why we got beat. Its simple we are not in the same league as the top 3 teams.

You still hang on for that little bit of hope it can happen but i hate to say it but for me last night was like we just lost another prelimanary final, season over!!!

Who is making pathetic excuses here Dale_dogs? I can't see anyone here trying to make excuses.

I see people posting their opinions as to what happened, and as per this thread title trying to set up debate as to what last night means to our finals campaign.

You're entitled to your opinion as much as the next person, but I don't think it's fair you should label the discussion as people making pathetic excuses.

Geelong did get whomped by 86 points early on in their premiership season in 07. It's not a 100 points, but 14 point shy of it is really only semantics.

[SonofScray]

Given the up and down nature of the squad this year and that we know our best is as good as anyone else's best we've just got to hang tough. I just hope timing is on our side and we swing back up when it count's.

There no rules about who win's, or makes grand finals. You don't have to be the best team, nor the best team on the day. All that matters in the end is the scoreboard. So to use the old cliche, "where there is life, there is hope."

I'd be hoping we add to that by improving our forward pressure and tackling over 4 qtrs to give ourselves every chance. This morning I am as confident about the flag wagging as I was yesterday morning. We're in with a chance.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Our track record at the trade table wouldn't suggest so. I haven't been impressed by our list management over the last two seasons believing we didn't make the hard call on a couple of guys especially at the end of last season.

Bridging that gap between a very good side and a genuine contender might require some hard calls.

Agree with this. Johnson earned another contract but he's finished. Ditto Eagleton - who should've been retired last year.

I'll be shot down for this - but we can't head into 2011 with Boyd AND Cross. They both are unaccountable turn over machines. If we've got balls, one of them will be shopped around at the end of the year.

[LostDoggy]

Who is making pathetic excuses here Dale_dogs? I can't see anyone here trying to make excuses.

I see people posting their opinions as to what happened, and as per this thread title trying to set up debate as to what last night means to our finals campaign.

You're entitled to your opinion as much as the next person, but I don't think it's fair you should label the discussion as people making pathetic excuses.

Geelong did get whomped by 86 points early on in their premiership season in 07. It's not a 100 points, but 14 point shy of it is really only semantics.

Sorry! to everybody probably a bit harsh i suppose we are all trying to find some sought of reason for that PATHETIC performance, but i am sick of hearing FLU,VIRUS. ETC.
I am simply stating my opinion i dont think we can make it.

But that last statement about Geelong, thats PATHETIC.

[bornadog]

But that last statement about Geelong, thats PATHETIC.

I believe that is in response to your statement, here:


No team has won the premiership losing by 100 points in H&A.
!

[Ghost Dog]

You still hang on for that little bit of hope it can happen but i hate to say it but for me last night was like we just lost another prelimanary final, season over!!!

Far from it. Anything can happen come finals. But it definitely proved how much extra effort we will need to compete with these teams and 2 from 10 in the top 4 is telling. Still, finals, One game is one game. I live in hope, but expect reality to bite. We are fourth placed for a reason.

[Ghost Dog]

I'd be hoping we add to that by improving our forward pressure and tackling over 4 qtrs to give ourselves every chance. This morning I am as confident about the flag wagging as I was yesterday morning. We're in with a chance.

Good on ya son of scray. Come on Bulldogs - no more thumpings please.

[LostDoggy]

Far from it. Anything can happen come finals. But it definitely proved how much extra effort we will need to compete with these teams and 2 from 10 in the top 4 is telling. Still, finals, One game is one game. I live in hope, but expect reality to bite. We are fourth placed for a reason.

Ghost do you honestly believe the Saints are better than us?

[LostDoggy]

If we come up against Geelong in the Finals, there is no way that we will win after last night. We were comprehensively and utterly smashed and as a group, i dont see how any statement game when we next play them will help, when we experienced what we did last night. In pressure cooker finals, you need to 100% believe that you can win and after last night - there will be some doubt in a lot of the guy's minds that they can match it with the cats.

These are just my thoughts - i do not think that we (or any team, for that matter) can recover within 3 weeks of getting beaten by 101 points - to mount any serious premiership campaign. It just doesnt happen.

[LostDoggy]

I thought last night showed how important Hudson is to us. Both Roughhead and Minson rucked without keeping the ball at their feet so it couldn't get out from the contest easily. Whilst Roughy palms the ball well, our players allowed Geelong to shark it or we fumbled it and lost possession. I am not sure that hitting the ball out into the open works when it more easily allows players to get free (especially when there is a run on).

Geelong's runners were on the move at centre bounces easily able to find space, whereas we were mostly reactive or standing still. We were continually chasing tail once the ball got into the first Cat's hands. A sign we were not fresh and sharp after last week's game. Geelong's runners are like Collingwood's and unless we man up and play pack football to keep the ball locked in, we are going to be done by the likes of Ablett every time.

The flu or the lethargy shown by Higgins and Minson who both had trouble getting clean possession, of manning up, of winning contested ball....meant that Geelong were so often able to free up a player.

We will do much better next time when we have Hudson and Cooney back, and are fitter and more mentally better able to carry out a team plan that stops opposition players getting their hands on the ball first and spreading it so easily.

[Mantis]

I'll be shot down for this - but we can't head into 2011 with Boyd AND Cross. They both are unaccountable turn over machines. If we've got balls, one of them will be shopped around at the end of the year.

I put up a post some 2 or 3 years ago asking what the roles of Boyd & Cross are.... Well I still don't know.

Last night they both the ball 30 odd times, the same as their opponents, but we got beat by 100 points and they didn't go to their opponents once... It isn't good enough.

I agree with your trade call as I believe if they can't start playing accountable footy they should be shopped around such that we can start developing mids who might be able to play 2-way footy.

[LostDoggy]

I put up a post some 2 or 3 years ago asking what the roles of Boyd & Cross are.... Well I still don't know.

Last night they both the ball 30 odd times, the same as their opponents, but we got beat by 100 points and they didn't go to their opponents once... It isn't good enough.

I agree with your trade call as I believe if they can't start playing accountable footy they should be shopped around such that we can start developing mids who might be able to play 2-way footy.

We cant and wont trade either, they are much better when the great one is running beside them. Just watchn the Saints game and Reiwoldt is in a bit of trouble they are working on his Hammy.

[Mantis]

We cant and wont trade either, they are much better when the great one is running beside them. Just watchn the Saints game and Reiwoldt is in a bit of trouble they are working on his Hammy.

They refuse to pick up a player as does Cooney & Griffen.

Cooney & Griffen are great attacking weapons.... However

Cross is a scaredy cat with the ball in hand, teams just sit off him and he stands still... It's embarrassing.

Boyd is a very good clearance player, but isn't a great kick, fumbles under pressure and refuses to pick up his man when the opposition has the ball.

This current midfield can't keep playing this run and gun style as we get torn to shreds by the gun mids of the leagues best teams.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

We cant and wont trade either, they are much better when the great one is running beside them. Just watchn the Saints game and Reiwoldt is in a bit of trouble they are working on his Hammy.

I think we have to consider it, if they are unable to perform roles that are asked of them. They both have some glaring deficiencies in their game, as well as some admirable traits.
I think if the right offer came for one of them, then we should look at it.
Would Gold Coast be interested in obtaining one of them, either of them would both help give them some grunt in the midfield, and their off field training abilities would set a great example to what would be a very young squad.

And on Riewoldt, he's just kicked his 5th and looks fine.

[LostDoggy]

They refuse to pick up a player as does Cooney & Griffen.

Cooney & Griffen are great attacking weapons.... However

Cross is a scaredy cat with the ball in hand, teams just sit off him and he stands still... It's embarrassing.

Boyd is a very good clearance player, but isn't a great kick, fumbles under pressure and refuses to pick up his man when the opposition has the ball.

This current midfield can't keep playing this run and gun style as we get torn to shreds by the gun mids of the leagues best teams.

I wouldnt say a scaredy cat but his roll is to get it out and without Cross we would feel the pinch as for Boyd he has his limits but still great support for Cooney and Griff. I would much rather stick with them both than take a punt on trading either for the sake of maybe improving. Especially at the risk of upsetting harmony. Our problems are not with the midfield its with our forward line and our heads.

[LostDoggy]

I think we have to consider it, if they are unable to perform roles that are asked of them. They both have some glaring deficiencies in their game, as well as some admirable traits.
I think if the right offer came for one of them, then we should look at it.
Would Gold Coast be interested in obtaining one of them, either of them would both help give them some grunt in the midfield, and their off field training abilities would set a great example to what would be a very young squad.

And on Riewoldt, he's just kicked his 5th and looks fine.


Just a niggle he will probably kick 10 now :rolleyes:

[Hotdog60]

If Higgins is done and dusted for the season, who gets his spot?
Would it be Hahn, Hill, Addison or ?

[Mantis]

I wouldnt say a scaredy cat but his roll is to get it out and without Cross we would feel the pinch as for Boyd he has his limits but still great support for Cooney and Griff. I would much rather stick with them both than take a punt on trading either for the sake of maybe improving. Especially at the risk of upsetting harmony. Our problems are not with the midfield its with our forward line and our heads.

So if Cross's role is to get it out why the hell doesn't he do this and then go and sit on the oppositions best midfielder?

Eade was seen at the 3/4 time break (and not for the 1st time) having a dip at Cross for standing still and not taking the game on... He is scared of making a mistake and against good teams you need to move the ball on quickly. Other players get berated and dropped for making the same mistakes over and over again, but Cross seems to get off scott free.

As far as team harmony goes I agree it is a fine balance, but if we don't win a flag this year we need to find a way to improve our list such that we can move up the ladder.... We might need to make some extremely tough calls.

The problem is so with our midfield and it's with the players within this current team and their inability (thus far) to rise up that extra bit to take the next step... If these players can't make the jump it's time to develop some who might be able to.

[LostDoggy]

If Higgins is done and dusted for the season, who gets his spot?
Would it be Hahn, Hill, Addison or ?

Hahn at his best so probably Hill until we get Wood back

[Stevo]

I feel that we are going to come up short again this year. The gap between the top 2 sides and us means we will have to have a lot of things go right to knock one of them off when it counts. We won't disgrace ourselves but I just feel that we will come up short again.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

So if Cross's role is to get it out why the hell doesn't he do this and then go and sit on the oppositions best midfielder?

Eade was seen at the 3/4 time break (and not for the 1st time) having a dip at Cross for standing still and not taking the game on... He is scared of making a mistake and against good teams you need to move the ball on quickly. Other players get berated and dropped for making the same mistakes over and over again, but Cross seems to get off scott free.

As far as team harmony goes I agree it is a fine balance, but if we don't win a flag this year we need to find a way to improve our list such that we can move up the ladder.... We might need to make some extremely tough calls.

The problem is so with our midfield and it's with the players within this current team and their inability (thus far) to rise up that extra bit to take the next step... If these players can't make the jump it's time to develop some who might be able to.

Sums it up well.

Cross really struggles against quality opposition. As Mantis said, they sit off him and he jumps/dances around in the same spot until he finally either uses his left boot and/or turns it over. He did this a number of times last night. Against the lower ranked sides, we get away with it ... but against Geelong and Collingwood especially - you shoot yourself in the foot.

For mine, Boyd simply tries to do too much. He's lost the defensive side of his game and is concentrating fully on trying to become an attacking weapon. He doesn't have the footy nous nor skills to pull it off and as a result, he turns it over and then finds himself out of position.

The team harmony is certainly an area you need to treat with care. The Monty/Eagleton saga is pretty well known, but we've failed miserably with the same cattle of players for a good 3 years now. We are here to win a Premiership; hard calls, as difficult as they may be, will need to be looked at to improve our list.

[LostDoggy]

So if Cross's role is to get it out why the hell doesn't he do this and then go and sit on the oppositions best midfielder?

Eade was seen at the 3/4 time break (and not for the 1st time) having a dip at Cross for standing still and not taking the game on... He is scared of making a mistake and against good teams you need to move the ball on quickly. Other players get berated and dropped for making the same mistakes over and over again, but Cross seems to get off scott free.

As far as team harmony goes I agree it is a fine balance, but if we don't win a flag this year we need to find a way to improve our list such that we can move up the ladder.... We might need to make some extremely tough calls.

The problem is so with our midfield and it's with the players within this current team and their inability (thus far) to rise up that extra bit to take the next step... If these players can't make the jump it's time to develop some who might be able to.

You make good points Mantis but what do you honestly think we would get for Crossy and if your only looking for draft picks who can step into his shoes and not leave a hole elsewhere?

[Hotdog60]

You make good points Mantis but what do you honestly think we would get for Crossy and if your only looking for draft picks who can step into his shoes and not leave a hole elsewhere?

I like Cross, but would a fit Sam Reid do a better job in and under.

[Mantis]

You make good points Mantis but what do you honestly think we would get for Crossy and if your only looking for draft picks who can step into his shoes and not leave a hole elsewhere?

I would be hoping we could get a late first round pick for him.

I would be looking to draft a quick ball carrier with this pick.

In the short term I would be looking for Reid & Ward to step up to fill his role, and then perhaps young Libba.

(This is all hypothetical as Cross may have a great finals series and put this whole idea to bed)

[LostDoggy]

Sums it up well.

Cross really struggles against quality opposition. As Mantis said, they sit off him and he jumps/dances around in the same spot until he finally either uses his left boot and/or turns it over. He did this a number of times last night. Against the lower ranked sides, we get away with it ... but against Geelong and Collingwood especially - you shoot yourself in the foot.

For mine, Boyd simply tries to do too much. He's lost the defensive side of his game and is concentrating fully on trying to become an attacking weapon. He doesn't have the footy nous nor skills to pull it off and as a result, he turns it over and then finds himself out of position.

The team harmony is certainly an area you need to treat with care. The Monty/Eagleton saga is pretty well known, but we've failed miserably with the same cattle of players for a good 3 years now. We are here to win a Premiership; hard calls, as difficult as they may be, will need to be looked at to improve our list.

I dont disagree with making hard calls and I dont think we have failed miserably agreed we havnt taken the next step but a failure is straight sets. Boydy does seem to try to hard your right there.

[LostDoggy]

I would be hoping we could get a late first round pick for him.

I would be looking to draft a quick ball carrier with this pick.

In the short term I would be looking for Reid & Ward to step up to fill his role, and then perhaps young Libba.

(This is all hypothetical as Cross may have a great finals series and put this whole idea to bed)

Yep thats a fair ask but not sure we would get it and a second round just wouldnt be worth it. I guess we just hope he has a good finals and go from there. Not sure Reid or Ward could pull it off as soon as next year.

[LostDoggy]

If we come up against Geelong in the Finals, there is no way that we will win after last night. We were comprehensively and utterly smashed and as a group, i dont see how any statement game when we next play them will help, when we experienced what we did last night. In pressure cooker finals, you need to 100% believe that you can win and after last night - there will be some doubt in a lot of the guy's minds that they can match it with the cats.

These are just my thoughts - i do not think that we (or any team, for that matter) can recover within 3 weeks of getting beaten by 101 points - to mount any serious premiership campaign. It just doesnt happen.

One game .... players out and others coming off the flu ..hard wet game last week 6 day break little training... playing 2 short ( Eagleton Higgins)...knee jerk reaction. We play finals now with no pressure on us might take the monkey off our back.

[Mantis]

One game .... players out and others coming off the flu ..hard wet game last week 6 day break little training... playing 2 short ( Eagleton Higgins)...knee jerk reaction. We play finals now with no pressure on us might take the monkey off our back.

We haven't won a flag for 55 years and counting.

Yep, no pressure.

[LostDoggy]

We haven't won a flag for 55 years and counting.

Yep, no pressure.

Not when everybody has written us off.I make a living betting against the obvious ( favourites)

[Jasper]

Looking at Smorgo's face you would think that Eade will and footy dept will come under pressure if we don't measure up this year. The notion of trading Boyd or Cross keeps crossing my mind...a team like Essendon would kill for Cross or Boyd you'd think. Oh well onto next week, watch us pump Sydney, overcome Essendon and probably succumb to the Pies...fingers crossed we beat Collingwood, I believe we can...do the players?

[Greystache]

I agree with the theme of this thread in that it's time to make some big calls on players that don't stand up in big games for us.

This week is the week to make the St Kilda style statement in regards to team instructions and that is to drop Boyd, clearly he has gotten ahead of himself, and if he doesn't play to instruction next week at Willi he doesn't come back in. I would assign Cross a purely defensive role this week and tell him if he doesn't do it he'll be out next week. I'd drop Johnson for Grant, and when Wood is fit again I'd make the call on Hargrave. There's no point rolling on the way we are, it's going to finish like the past 2 season (lose the first final, get a consalation win over a low ranking team, then lose the prelim again).

At seasons end I'd look at trading Cross to a team looking for an inside midfielder like Carlton, preferably in exchange for one of their 3 crumbing forwards. Plus I'd call time on Johnson, Hahn, Hargrave.

[Jasper]

I think a few people on here need to take a deep breath. Yes last night was embarrassing but more that anything it show that you can not win(especially against the best teams) with a poor preparation. We had to cancel 2 training session during the week because of this virus and as much as the team aren't using it as an excess it clearly had a huge impact. Our team has not change from the one that was part of the big 4 last week even if the media and some people on here have jumped off.

remember Geelong got beaten by the Pies by 80 points the year they won their first flag.

[Jasper]

I agree with the theme of this thread in that it's time to make some big calls on players that don't stand up in big games for us.

This week is the week to make the St Kilda style statement in regards to team instructions and that is to drop Boyd, clearly he has gotten ahead of himself, and if he doesn't play to instruction next week at Willi he doesn't come back in. I would assign Cross a purely defensive role this week and tell him if he doesn't do it he'll be out next week. I'd drop Johnson for Grant, and when Wood is fit again I'd make the call on Hargrave. There's no point rolling on the way we are, it's going to finish like the past 2 season (lose the first final, get a consalation win over a low ranking team, then lose the prelim again).

At seasons end I'd look at trading Cross to a team looking for an inside midfielder like Carlton, preferably in exchange for one of their 3 crumbing forwards. Plus I'd call time on Johnson, Hahn, Hargrave.

Lucky you aren't the coach

[LostDoggy]

Lucky you aren't the coach

Funny

[Greystache]

I think a few people on here need to take a deep breath. Yes last night was embarrassing but more that anything it show that you can not win(especially against the best teams) with a poor preparation. We had to cancel 2 training session during the week because of this virus and as much as the team aren't using it as an excess it clearly had a huge impact. Our team has not change from the one that was part of the big 4 last week even if the media and some people on here have jumped off.

remember Geelong got beaten by the Pies by 80 points the year they won their first flag.


Lucky you aren't the coach

Oh I get it, you're one of those types that think doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results isn't the definition of insanity.

NFI :rolleyes:

[LostDoggy]

One game .... players out and others coming off the flu ..hard wet game last week 6 day break little training... playing 2 short ( Eagleton Higgins)...knee jerk reaction. We play finals now with no pressure on us might take the monkey off our back.

101 points. I fully agree that we had a number of things going against us coming into last night - but we got belted by 101 points. I fear that it takes more than just the pressure off.

[NoParkingOnMatchDays]

I think a few people on here need to take a deep breath. Yes last night was embarrassing but more that anything it show that you can not win(especially against the best teams) with a poor preparation. We had to cancel 2 training session during the week because of this virus and as much as the team aren't using it as an excess it clearly had a huge impact. Our team has not change from the one that was part of the big 4 last week even if the media and some people on here have jumped off.

remember Geelong got beaten by the Pies by 80 points the year they won their first flag.

Round 9 not 2 weeks out from the finals.

People have mentioned that we can't make the hard calls because it might upset the group. Would this not confirm the absolute mental fragility of this group . Blah Blah Blah but you shouldn't do handstands, don't write those particular words.(yes only words) without getting it ticked off by everyone as it might offend, Rockets doing too much media which is hurting the side, don't do anything unless the the leadership group give their approval blah blah blah. It seems to be a sad story for a club/ playing group that lacks that ultimate belief that they belong with the big boys.

Boydy said that he was at the club not to make friends but to win a premiership. I hope the club follows the same line.

[Jasper]

Oh I get it, you're one of those types that think doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results isn't the definition of insanity.

NFI :rolleyes:

not at all, I am just not one of these fickle supporters whose opinion changes by the week depending on the result.

[Greystache]

not at all, I am just not one of these fickle supports whose opinion changes by the week depending on the result.

Perhaps they should change over the course of 3 years!

Many close followers were expecting a similar result to this and have been discussing changes needed for some time.

[bornadog]

I agree with the theme of this thread in that it's time to make some big calls on players that don't stand up in big games for us.

This week is the week to make the St Kilda style statement in regards to team instructions and that is to drop Boyd, clearly he has gotten ahead of himself, and if he doesn't play to instruction next week at Willi he doesn't come back in. I would assign Cross a purely defensive role this week and tell him if he doesn't do it he'll be out next week. I'd drop Johnson for Grant, and when Wood is fit again I'd make the call on Hargrave. There's no point rolling on the way we are, it's going to finish like the past 2 season (lose the first final, get a consalation win over a low ranking team, then lose the prelim again).

At seasons end I'd look at trading Cross to a team looking for an inside midfielder like Carlton, preferably in exchange for one of their 3 crumbing forwards. Plus I'd call time on Johnson, Hahn, Hargrave.

Is this a joke post, drop Boyd who has been averaging 31 disposals per game?

Why would you get rid of Hargrave who has had a pretty good second half of the season? Oh don't tell me he coughed the ball up once and we should drop him.

[Greystache]

Is this a joke post, drop Boyd who has been averaging 31 disposals per game?

Why would you get rid of Hargrave who has had a pretty good second half of the season? Oh don't tell me he coughed the ball up once and we should drop him.

What part of his opponent being best on ground and Boyd applying exactly zero defensive pressure did you miss? He's a serial offender, he refuses to follow the coaches instructions, and against the top team his opponents influence is a primary reason we're 0-4 this year. Clearly he needs a major wake up call.

Hargrave has been a let down his whole career against the top teams, if we can get everyone fit he is the weakest link in our finals defensive set up.

[Raw Toast]

Things are never as good or as bad as they seem.

A good quote for the moment MJP, and perhaps the run of wins preceding it as well.

To get back to the main topic of the thread, I don't think last night's loss has a negative impact on our finals aspirations.

We might not like it, but even if the flu had us off by a few percent then that opens the door for a game like that. I think the humiliation can spur us on, but I'm concerned about the lingering effects of the flu.

Most of us know that one of our key advantages these past few years has been our fitness, so can we get it back up in time? Collingwood has claims to being the fittest team in the comp imo, and we'll need to be running super-hard late against the Saints and Cats if we are to beat them.

[Desipura]

I agree with the theme of this thread in that it's time to make some big calls on players that don't stand up in big games for us.

This week is the week to make the St Kilda style statement in regards to team instructions and that is to drop Boyd, clearly he has gotten ahead of himself, and if he doesn't play to instruction next week at Willi he doesn't come back in. I would assign Cross a purely defensive role this week and tell him if he doesn't do it he'll be out next week. I'd drop Johnson for Grant, and when Wood is fit again I'd make the call on Hargrave. There's no point rolling on the way we are, it's going to finish like the past 2 season (lose the first final, get a consalation win over a low ranking team, then lose the prelim again).

At seasons end I'd look at trading Cross to a team looking for an inside midfielder like Carlton, preferably in exchange for one of their 3 crumbing forwards. Plus I'd call time on Johnson, Hahn, Hargrave.
Ridiculous call to drop Boyd. Its not as if we have alot of midfield replacements. He has had a very good season.
Trade Cross and you sell your soul, wont happen, should not happen. (I am aware of these 2 players limitations, but you need to focus on their strengths)

Johnson & Hahn MUST hang up the boots at seasons end.
If no one wants to trade for Hargrave, we keep him.
Would you have made these big calls had we lost by 30 points to Geelong? Probably not.

Its not like we have been doing the same things year in year out as you say. Have a look at the inclusions this year, Wood, Grant, Jones & Moles to name a few.... There has to be a transition otherwise we may bottom out (which we cannot afford to do)

[LostDoggy]

Saturday's game?

A mere flesh wound - a minor setback:D

I travelled over for the game without any notion of a Doggies win because:


A six day break from the hardest game of the year (brought about by wet conditions)

Kennel cough causing two postponements of training sessions

Players not fully recovered from virus

Unavailability of important players - Hudson, Cooney, Harbrow and Grant


Add to this on the night the inexplicable performance of Lake, the playing of unfit players, Higgins and Ward and the ineptitude (again) of Eagleton in a big match plus the lack of any attempt to play a shut-down role on their runners at centre bounces and we were on a hiding to nothing.

What will it mean come September?

Absolutely nothing, because not one of the noted events of Saturday night will be repeated.

[mjp]

Have a look at the inclusions this year, Wood, Grant, Jones & Moles to name a few.... There has to be a transition otherwise we may bottom out (which we cannot afford to do)

Agree with all of that...our list management has been really good this year and seemingly focussed on both today and tomorrow.

My only concern is that the 2009 draft will slow us down in the future - Howard seems to be coming along, Tutt OK but very small whilst Markovic and Thorne are seemingly very limited.

[bornadog]

Agree with all of that...our list management has been really good this year and seemingly focussed on both today and tomorrow.

My only concern is that the 2009 draft will slow us down in the future - Howard seems to be coming along, Tutt OK but very small whilst Markovic and Thorne are seemingly very limited.

We did not do a good job with 2009. Looks like only Howard will come through. If Panos can get his fitness up he may become a player and as you say Tutt may be ok.

[bornadog]

Hargrave has been a let down his whole career against the top teams, if we can get everyone fit he is the weakest link in our finals defensive set up.

I suppose you are also one that bags Gia as well.

[chef]

We did not do a good job with 2009. Looks like only Howard will come through. If Panos can get his fitness up he may become a player and as you say Tutt may be ok.

And Hooper seems to be doing alright too.

[chef]

Saturday's game?

A mere flesh wound - a minor setback:D

I travelled over for the game without any notion of a Doggies win because:


A six day break from the hardest game of the year (brought about by wet conditions)

Kennel cough causing two postponements of training sessions

Players not fully recovered from virus

Unavailability of important players - Hudson, Cooney, Harbrow and Grant


Add to this on the night the inexplicable performance of Lake, the playing of unfit players, Higgins and Ward and the ineptitude (again) of Eagleton in a big match plus the lack of any attempt to play a shut-down role on their runners at centre bounces and we were on a hiding to nothing.

What will it mean come September?

Absolutely nothing, because not one of the noted events of Saturday night will be repeated.

Great post EJ, I share your optimism:).

[Ozza]

I have been stewing over the game since it finished. Really not sure what to think. My first reaction was that I fear we are poorly coached - but have since thought thats maybe too harsh. Plenty will say 'well our guys didn't follow instruction' etc - but when you're getting beaten by 100 points and go with the same formula all night - the coach has to be getting a whack too.

What worries me is that our game style simply doesn't stand up to the best teams and we seem to have no way of turning the game to have it played in the way we want. The saints can make the game a defensive slog, Geelong can turn the game into what it was the other night - flicking the ball around and using the corridor - Collingwood can swarm you with pressure and find loose players pushing forward bobbing up in the 50 on the rebound. We don't have the ability to play our preferred style, on our terms against the best.

What concerned me specifically about the other night was;

- Boyd head to head on Ablett. Boyd was smashed and there was no plan B (a Herald Sun writer had Boyd in our best 2!)
- If Cross is going to have no impact with the ball - why isn't he locking down an opposition gun?
- Saturday had to be the end for Eagle. Good against the rubbish, but rubbish against the good sides, I don't think we can afford to carry him in the big games.
- Higgins is a massive concern. Injured again, but he is slow and makes too many kicking errors and doesn't seem to step up when required.
- Johnno really battled.

The silver lining is;

- Huddo will be back...I can't remember the last time I saw a Ruckman slam the ball down his midfielders throats at top speed like Ottens did on Saturday - he schooled our boys.
- Cooney will be back.
- Williams really stood up when he needed to.

[Mantis]

I suppose you are also one that bags Gia as well.

Hargrave was poor.

His kicking was ultra predictable and he was cut apart by the Geelong smalls.

He had a stinker.

[Greystache]

I suppose you are also one that bags Gia as well.

What the hell are you talking about?

A season is only as good as how you perform when it matters most, we have several senior players who regularly fail in big games, hence we're 0-4 against the top three teams this year and 0-4 against top 4 teams in finals the past two years. Hargrave is one of them.

I suppose you're one of those supporters that walks away from losing a final saying x played 2 poor finals but he was really consistent in the H&A season, so he had a good year.

[Murphy'sLore]

Just remember how it feels to be recovering from flu - not a cold, the flu. The wobbly weakness of your whole body, the fuzzy head, the shortness of breath, the effort it takes to even contemplate getting out of bed to go to the toilet.

Now imagine you have to haul yourself out of bed in that state, not to totter down the hallway, but to go out onto the middle of Etihad Stadium and play a tough, punishing game of football against ruthless opposition.

No bloody wonder we were belted. I just hope the boys can all fully recover in time for finals.

[Mantis]

Just remember how it feels to be recovering from flu - not a cold, the flu. The wobbly weakness of your whole body, the fuzzy head, the shortness of breath, the effort it takes to even contemplate getting out of bed to go to the toilet.

Now imagine you have to haul yourself out of bed in that state, not to totter down the hallway, but to go out onto the middle of Etihad Stadium and play a tough, punishing game of football against ruthless opposition.

No bloody wonder we were belted. I just hope the boys can all fully recover in time for finals.

That's all good and well, but some of our best players on the night were those who were most affected by the virus.

From those most affected just Gilbee & Moles performed poorly.

[Jasper]

What the hell are you talking about?

A season is only as good as how you perform when it matters most, we have several senior players who regularly fail in big games, hence we're 0-4 against the top three teams this year and 0-4 against top 4 teams in finals the past two years. Hargrave is one of them.

I suppose you're one of those supporters that walks away from losing a final saying x played 2 poor finals but he was really consistent in the H&A season, so he had a good year.

If we do happen to win the flag this year, unlikely but not out of the realm of possibility, would you please start a thread entitled I AM SORRY, I WAS WRONG.

[Greystache]

If we do happen to win the flag this year, unlikely but not out of the realm of possibility, would you please start a thread entitled I AM SORRY, I WAS WRONG.

Who are you again? :rolleyes:

If we even beat one of the top sides in a final I'll happily acknowledge it.

[LostDoggy]

The fish rots from the head and all that. When Geelong, St.Kilda or Collingwood are down against the good sides, there are a few certainties: Ablett Jr, Scarlett, Selwood, and Bartel will show up for the Cats, Lenny Hayes, St. Nick and Goddard will show up for the Saints, and Dane Swan, Didak and Maxwell will show up for the Pies. They may still end up losing, but these guys will stand up and take a contested mark, grab the ball from the maul, throw themselves into tackle after tackle, launch themselves to smother kicks, force the ball over the line.

When these guys show up, even the mentally crappy, poop-in-your-pants, deer in the headlights type players like Farren Ray, Zac Dawson, Rapist Milne, Dale Thomas, Leon Davis, Travis Cloke, Cam Mooney, Tom Hawkins et al stand taller and play above themselves.

Let's stop bagging Eagle, Hargrave, Everitt, Moles, and all the other depth players on our list with clear deficiencies. They are who they are, and are often crap, but expecting them to do things they can't will only end in tears. Lyon knows that Farren can't kick in traffic, so he plans accordingly. He knows Zac can't play one-on-one, and plans accordingly.

What I'm more worried about, and has been raised by many others on this forum over the years, are our leaders. Where is our Lenny Hayes, our Dane Swan, our Jimmy Bartel? Guys who aren't just guns, but will stand up at crucial moments in a match and do the crazy 1-percenters and drag the team with them. Guys who will be quiet for half a game but then pull out 7 possies in 3 minutes when the game is on the line. Coons doesn't do that regularly enough in big games, Griff tries but hasn't quite gotten there yet, Boydy and Crossy think they're doing it but aren't really, Gia tries but just doesn't have the presence to pull it off, ditto Murph. Johnno used to be our guy.

Johnno used to be our guy.

--

ps. this is why I disliked the Aker saga so much, not because I give a crap about Aker, but because it just showed the mental fragility of our leadership. Teddy Whitten would have just taken Jason out the back for a little chat and that would have been the end of it -- when the big man spoke to you, you knew you had been spoken to. Instead, with our softly, softly type leaders, the saga dragged on and on and ended in a pissweak way. This lack of presence and inability to command respect off the field translates into a lack of influence on it. Maybe our leaders just aren't good enough (skillswise), but I think there is also an attitude factor.

In my opinion (for what it's worth), it all boils down to leadership (or the lack thereof).

[bornadog]

What the hell are you talking about?

.

I am talking about supporters that bag Hargrave and Gia when we lose, hear it all the time.



A season is only as good as how you perform when it matters most, we have several senior players who regularly fail in big games, hence we're 0-4 against the top three teams this year and 0-4 against top 4 teams in finals the past two years. Hargrave is one of them.

.

2009 Prelim versus Saints - Hargrave 25 disposals , 7 marks, only Griffen, Boyd and Cooney touched the ball more.


I suppose you're one of those supporters that walks away from losing a final saying x played 2 poor finals but he was really consistent in the H&A season, so he had a good year.

Players can have a poor finals series, doesn't mean they didn't perform for the year? In reverse, so do you believe players can have a poor H&A and two good finals so they were great that year?

[bornadog]

Hargrave was poor.

His kicking was ultra predictable and he was cut apart by the Geelong smalls.

He had a stinker.

They all had a stinker. When you lose by that much, in my opinion vitually, all positions were beaten.

Greystache 's arguement is about Hargrave's whole career not just Saturday.

[Mofra]

Gia tries but just doesn't have the presence to pull it off, ditto Murph. Johnno used to be our guy.
Murphy was the vocal at huddles and seemed to be the most dangerous ball-user of the night, especially in the first half. Gia appeared to be our most dangerous forward and still found the ball. They are probably the only two leaders who who walk off with their heads even raised slightly.

[Greystache]

Double post- iPhone crashed

[Mofra]

Ridiculous call to drop Boyd. Its not as if we have alot of midfield replacements. He has had a very good season.
Trade Cross and you sell your soul, wont happen, should not happen. (I am aware of these 2 players limitations, but you need to focus on their strengths)
Boyd has enough credit in the bank to be given the opportunity to atone for one bad game. Cross' efforts in the wet the week before were a large part of why we won over in SA. The game at the SCG probably suits their style a little more so both get the chance to play to their strengths.

I commented during the game that I was watching Eagleton's last, Moles' disposal under pressure is woeful, Minson I'm more worried about now than at the start of the year, and our forwardline offered little in the way of defensive pressure (Jones aside) which was the beiggest worry of the night as this is the one aspect of our game we've been poor all year in (ranked 16th).

Wood's injury didn't help - hard to believe he has become such an important player to us in a short space of time, but he is to the backline what Grant has become to the forwardline - raw, quick and desperate to make a difference to the result of the game.

[Greystache]

Players can have a poor finals series, doesn't mean they didn't perform for the year? In reverse, so do you believe players can have a poor H&A and two good finals so they were great that year?

Yes it does. No, great finals = great year.

The H&A serves no purpose other than to set you up for the finals so you have a chance at winning a premiership. Play a good H&A season and a crap finals you've had a poor year, play a crap H&A season and a crap finals and you get moved on. Who gives a shit about your 8 goals in round 3 against a team that finished 14th when the team loses the prelim by 2 goals and you finish with 5 possessions.

Many bulldog supporters celebrate players who are consistent H&A performers and overlook the fact they fail to deliver when it matters most, you clearly fit in this group. The true champions of our game are the ones who lift for the big occasion, they're the one's that have premiership medallions in their trophy rooms. I'm not happy to celebrate mediocrity and won't celebrate players that do.

[Ozza]

The fish rots from the head and all that. When Geelong, St.Kilda or Collingwood are down against the good sides, there are a few certainties: Ablett Jr, Scarlett, Selwood, and Bartel will show up for the Cats, Lenny Hayes, St. Nick and Goddard will show up for the Saints, and Dane Swan, Didak and Maxwell will show up for the Pies. They may still end up losing, but these guys will stand up and take a contested mark, grab the ball from the maul, throw themselves into tackle after tackle, launch themselves to smother kicks, force the ball over the line.

When these guys show up, even the mentally crappy, poop-in-your-pants, deer in the headlights type players like Farren Ray, Zac Dawson, Rapist Milne, Dale Thomas, Leon Davis, Travis Cloke, Cam Mooney, Tom Hawkins et al stand taller and play above themselves.

Let's stop bagging Eagle, Hargrave, Everitt, Moles, and all the other depth players on our list with clear deficiencies. They are who they are, and are often crap, but expecting them to do things they can't will only end in tears. Lyon knows that Farren can't kick in traffic, so he plans accordingly. He knows Zac can't play one-on-one, and plans accordingly.

What I'm more worried about, and has been raised by many others on this forum over the years, are our leaders. Where is our Lenny Hayes, our Dane Swan, our Jimmy Bartel? Guys who aren't just guns, but will stand up at crucial moments in a match and do the crazy 1-percenters and drag the team with them. Guys who will be quiet for half a game but then pull out 7 possies in 3 minutes when the game is on the line. Coons doesn't do that regularly enough in big games, Griff tries but hasn't quite gotten there yet, Boydy and Crossy think they're doing it but aren't really, Gia tries but just doesn't have the presence to pull it off, ditto Murph. Johnno used to be our guy.

Johnno used to be our guy.

--

ps. this is why I disliked the Aker saga so much, not because I give a crap about Aker, but because it just showed the mental fragility of our leadership. Teddy Whitten would have just taken Jason out the back for a little chat and that would have been the end of it -- when the big man spoke to you, you knew you had been spoken to. Instead, with our softly, softly type leaders, the saga dragged on and on and ended in a pissweak way. This lack of presence and inability to command respect off the field translates into a lack of influence on it. Maybe our leaders just aren't good enough (skillswise), but I think there is also an attitude factor.

In my opinion (for what it's worth), it all boils down to leadership (or the lack thereof).

Aker got out of hand at Brisbane too...do you think Voss, Jonno Brown and Simon Black have an inability to command respect also? Comparing today to Ted Whitten's era is absurd, most of what happened 'in the good old days' didn't involve dozens journalists and footy tv shows following every move off field, as well as the concept of an AFL club being a workplace - they're not comparable.

I don't disagree with the rest of your post. We lack a player (or two) to stand up and grab the game by the throat and shift the momentum back our way. And as you said - Johnno used to be our man. He won games for years. Chris Grant did too. This is where Cooney, Lake, Griffen and Murphy have to do the business - as they're our best players. I thought Gia and Morris lead the way on the weekend - and they played in the same way - to the same instruction - that they do every week. But in the finals we will need Cooney to be at his absolute best and the rest to follow.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Over the last month or so we have been building up towards a top 4 finish and I guess we have been building up our confidence of the playing group and the supporters.

My questions are around what will last night debacle do to our finals aspirations this year?

We can cut the side some slack because we had a few key players with injuries and we can also make some allowances for the flu that a number of players were carrying but how does the club manage to rebuild the side with the confidence and belief that they can win the flag and not necessarily just be there to make up the numbers?

A 2nd question is for our supporters, do you still rate us as a genuine flag chance and if so, what is the main trigger for that vote of confidence?

Our forward line simply isn't good enough to be a flag contender. Thank goodness for Barry Hall who has been our only consistently good forward. Gia has stepped up in recent weeks after a poor first half of the season. Johnson, Higgins, Hahn and Hill, on form simply do not rate. Grant apart from Hall has been our best forward. Jones like Roughead and Wood are the future but need more time to develop. It might be time to move Murphy back onto the forward line where his class would lift this division. Our back line and midfield have been the team's strengths. Compared to Geelong and Collingwood, we are a long way off the pace. The decision to hang on to Akermanis, Johnson, Eagleton and Hahn has proved costly and yet we probably have not had adequate relacements to take their places. The jury is still out on Moles and Everitt and dare I say it Higgins as well.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Our forward line simply isn't good enough to be a flag contender. Thank goodness for Barry Hall who has been our only consistently good forward. Gia has stepped up in recent weeks after a poor first half of the season. Johnson, Higgins, Hahn and Hill, on form simply do not rate. Grant apart from Hall has been our best forward. Jones like Roughead and Wood are the future but need more time to develop. It might be time to move Murphy back onto the forward line where his class would lift this division. Our back line and midfield have been the team's strengths. Compared to Geelong and Collingwood, we are a long way off the pace. The decision to hang on to Akermanis, Johnson, Eagleton and Hahn has proved costly and yet we probably have not had adequate relacements to take their places. The jury is still out on Moles and Everitt and dare I say it Higgins as well.

Agree with this post.

Murphy to the forward line is probably a correct call, too.

Especially against the better sides.

[Desipura]

Here is a useless stat.......which team lost to Hawthorn by 83 points in round 20 and then went on to win the grand final?

Collingwood 1990

[Murphy'sLore]

Here is a useless stat.......which team lost to Hawthorn by 83 points in round 20 and then went on to win the grand final?

Collingwood 1990

Straws. Clutching.

;)

[1eyedog]

I think we will be competitive come September. People talk about being fourth for a reason, but we lost a handful of games by under 10 points (Hawks by 3) this year, win two of those and we're a second placed team. Before Saturday night our average losing margin was 13 points, our winning was 45+ points, quarters won was on par with the top 3. When it comes down to it our record against the top 3 is poor but Geelong lost to Collingwood and St. Kilda this year too.

We are top 4 so in with a chance, under an open sky on a big ground in a finals atmosphere anything can happen.

St. Kilda are still untested against a top 4 team if you ask me, they have found form against Port and North over the past two weeks but does that mean anything?

Collingwood are capable of anything this finals series, including succumbing to pressure.

[mjp]

I'm not happy to celebrate mediocrity and won't celebrate players that do.

I thought we accepted mediocrity rather than celebrated it.

Isn't that what we do as Bulldogs supporters?;)

If Boyd had a poor outing, then he had a poor outing. Given he is our reigning B&F - voted on by the MC - and has played in much the same style this year, I doubt he is going to be dropped.

Cross has been pretty reliable in big games and is unquestionably committed. I see little value in assigning him a defensive role - who exactly is he going to be able to keep up with? His strength is winning the contested footy and gut running to provide a midfield target...and he is the best tackler at the club. We do need him.

I am pretty happy with both of these players but can understand where you are coming from with your comments - but turning round 21 they are who they are and we are who we are. No point being unhappy with them - be unhappy with the MC for advocating their performances through continued selection and B&F votes.

With the other guys you mention:
- Shaggy has had a good past month and was good in the 2009 finals.
- Hahn kicked 3 in the infamous PF defeat last year.
- Johnson is an interesting case study and given his interrupted season I am not sure anyone really knows exactly where he is at.

[Greystache]

I thought we accepted mediocrity rather than celebrated it.

Isn't that what we do as Bulldogs supporters?;)

If Boyd had a poor outing, then he had a poor outing. Given he is our reigning B&F - voted on by the MC - and has played in much the same style this year, I doubt he is going to be dropped.

Cross has been pretty reliable in big games and is unquestionably committed. I see little value in assigning him a defensive role - who exactly is he going to be able to keep up with? His strength is winning the contested footy and gut running to provide a midfield target...and he is the best tackler at the club. We do need him.

I am pretty happy with both of these players but can understand where you are coming from with your comments - but turning round 21 they are who they are and we are who we are. No point being unhappy with them - be unhappy with the MC for advocating their performances through continued selection and B&F votes.

With the other guys you mention:
- Shaggy has had a good past month and was good in the 2009 finals.
- Hahn kicked 3 in the infamous PF defeat last year.
- Johnson is an interesting case study and given his interrupted season I am not sure anyone really knows exactly where he is at.

The reasoned voice amongst the mayhem. :o

Round 21 probably is too late, the statement should've been made by the MC after the Collingwood loss. I know the match committee has addressed the issue before, after an unaccountable performance on Dane Swan Eade called him a wannabe rockstar who is believing his own press, but it hasn't changed much. St Kilda made the statement with Dal Santo and it paid off big time, but again that was at an earlier stage in the season.

I'd play Cross on Hannerbery, he's hot at the moment and it may help Cross remember how he made his mark at AFL level

I've been a big supporter of Hahn, he's looked off the pace this year but I did put him in my INS this week, he said on Friday it's the best he's felt since the NAB cup, and his form was good then. (btw he only kicked 2 in the PF but they were back to back at an important stage in the 2nd quarter)

I think Hargrave is surplus to needs when we have a full squad, and his skills under pressure are scary at times, that's just my view.

I think we know where Johno is in the scheme of modern day defensive football, it's just a matter of whether we want to admit it or not.

[bornadog]

Many bulldog supporters celebrate players who are consistent H&A performers and overlook the fact they fail to deliver when it matters most, you clearly fit in this group. The true champions of our game are the ones who lift for the big occasion, they're the one's that have premiership medallions in their trophy rooms. I'm not happy to celebrate mediocrity and won't celebrate players that do.

Mate you don't know me so don't make assumptions.

You bagged Hargrave and I showed you a stat that he played well in the prelim last year. Please don't post stuff that I am clearly this or that type of supporter.

As for true champions, well according to your statement, we haven't had one since 1954.:rolleyes:

[LostDoggy]

I agree with the theme of this thread in that it's time to make some big calls on players that don't stand up in big games for us.

This week is the week to make the St Kilda style statement in regards to team instructions and that is to drop Boyd, clearly he has gotten ahead of himself, and if he doesn't play to instruction next week at Willi he doesn't come back in. I would assign Cross a purely defensive role this week and tell him if he doesn't do it he'll be out next week. I'd drop Johnson for Grant, and when Wood is fit again I'd make the call on Hargrave. There's no point rolling on the way we are, it's going to finish like the past 2 season (lose the first final, get a consalation win over a low ranking team, then lose the prelim again).

At seasons end I'd look at trading Cross to a team looking for an inside midfielder like Carlton, preferably in exchange for one of their 3 crumbing forwards. Plus I'd call time on Johnson, Hahn, Hargrave.

Crossy may not be as suited playing indoors as opposed to outside so his worth will show in September when we can venture outdoors.

[AndrewP6]

Crossy may not be as suited playing indoors as opposed to outside so his worth will show in September when we can venture outdoors.

So we keep him on ice from March-August? (JOKING!) :)

[Raw Toast]

I think we know where Johno is in the scheme of modern day defensive football, it's just a matter of whether we want to admit it or not.

So how do you explain his impressive game against the Crows in appalling conditions (18 touches, 9 marks, 4 scoring shots), or his game against Freo which helped get us up and running (he had five tackles for the game which isn't too bad either for a small forward)?

Johnson with all his ailments so far still has the second best average for scoring assists in the side - he's got a role to play if he can keep on improving his fitness.

[GVGjr]

At seasons end I'd look at trading Cross to a team looking for an inside midfielder like Carlton, preferably in exchange for one of their 3 crumbing forwards. Plus I'd call time on Johnson, Hahn, Hargrave.

I wonder what trading a popular guy like Cross would do for team morale and how the club could sell it to the players and the fans?
I can understand why you are questioning Hahn's value but I have to say I can't see the value in off loading Hargrave. Most of his games this season have been good although Friday night he couldn't do anything right.

[Ghost Dog]

I, for one, would be really gutted if Cross were traded. What for? Nobody goes in harder and the fans love him. He has a great record and loads of respect. Heart and soul of the midfield. I realize his ability to spot a target can be shonky at times. Please explain?