TEAMS - Round 22

[bornadog]

WESTERN BULLDOGS v ESSENDON
Western Bulldogs

B: Jarrod Harbrow, Brian Lake, Dylan Addison
HB: Ryan Hargrave, Tom Williams, Lindsay Gilbee
C: Andrejs Everitt, Matthew Boyd, Liam Picken
HF: Callan Ward, Mitch Hahn, Robert Murphy
F: Daniel Giansiracusa, Barry Hall, Jarrad Grant
Foll: Ben Hudson, Ryan Griffen, Daniel Cross
I/C: Brodie Moles, Nathan Eagleton, Liam Jones, Jordan Roughead
Emg: Shaun Higgins, Will Minson, Josh Hill

In: Addison, Everitt, Roughead
Out: Adam Cooney (hamstring), Dale Morris (back), Brad Johnson (ankle)

Essendon

B: Henry Slattery, Michael Hurley, Heath Hocking
HB: David Myers, Cale Hooker, Brent Stanton
C: Courtenay Dempsey, Ben Howlett, Travis Colyer
HF: Leroy Jetta, Jake Carlisle, Jason Winderlich
F: Stewart Crameri, Kyle Hardingham, Angus Monfries
Foll: David Hille, Marcus Marigliani, Jake Melksham
I/C: Patrick Ryder, Kyle Reimers, Brent Prismall, Sam Lonergan
Emg: Jay Neagle, Michael Quinn, Tyson Slattery

In: Colyer, Ryder, Winderlich, Lonergan
Out: Jobe Watson (ankle), Mark McVeigh (knee), Jay Neagle, Michael Quinn

[LostDoggy]

B: Jarrod Harbrow, Brian Lake, Dylan Addison
HB: Ryan Hargrave, Tom Williams, Lindsay Gilbee
C: Andrejs Everitt, Matthew Boyd, Liam Picken
HF: Callan Ward, Mitch Hahn, Robert Murphy
F: Daniel Giansiracusa, Barry Hall, Jarrad Grant
Foll: Ben Hudson, Ryan Griffen, Daniel Cross
I/C: Brodie Moles, Nathan Eagleton, Liam Jones, Jordan Roughead
Emg: Shaun Higgins, Will Minson, Josh Hill

In: Addison, Everitt, Roughead
Out: Adam Cooney (hamstring), Dale Morris (back), Brad Johnson (ankle)

[comrade]

We look short on run with Cooney and Wood out - too many genuine forwards.

Having Ward and Harbrow under a cloud doesn't help either.

Time to switch to a grinding, St Kilda style bore fest to cover our injuries.

[mighty_west]

Whilst the losses of Coons & Morris hurt alot, it's still a good team on paper, good inclusions this week as well, all 3 in form players as well, a few handy types in the emer list.

Where does that leave Minson though?

[bornadog]

Who thinks Higgo is still a chance? Apparently having blood tests to see if he is ok to play.

[Greystache]

We look short on run with Cooney and Wood out - too many genuine forwards.

Having Ward and Harbrow under a cloud doesn't help either.

Time to switch to a grinding, St Kilda style bore fest to cover our injuries.

Not a big problem against Essendon who are actually quite a slow team despite their media image, but we need to work on our defensive structures in preparation for Collingwood next week.

[LostDoggy]

If we can bring Wood for pace and (a healthy) Higgins back into that team soon we won't be looking too bad.

[ReLoad]

Not a big problem against Essendon who are actually quite slow team despite their media image, but we need to work on our defensive structures in preparation for Collingwood next week.

I disagree totally, do a player versus player comparison in the speed stakes and we are well off the mark.

How the heck Hahn gets a game after last week is beyond me. Watch for an Essendon half back flanker run off him all night, i would think Stanton will have a party.

Jobe Watson is a huge out for them, his loss hurts them more than Cooney does for us.

We also will not get found out with Morris missing this week. (next week is a different story)

Minson is now behind Roughy in the picking order despite Wil's good game at Willy.

Spider Jnr, if by some miracle you read this, this is your time, you NEED and have to dominate this game of football, they have nobody to man up on you, this is your chance, reward all of us with a game that shows just what you are made of, do NOT give the MC the opportunity to drop you.

[chef]

Whilst the losses of Coons & Morris hurt alot, it's still a good team on paper, good inclusions this week as well, all 3 in form players as well, a few handy types in the emer list.

Where does that leave Minson though?

Trade bait.

[GVGjr]

We look short on run with Cooney and Wood out - too many genuine forwards.

Having Ward and Harbrow under a cloud doesn't help either.

Time to switch to a grinding, St Kilda style bore fest to cover our injuries.

I agree. Nothing against Liam Jones but I would have added another runner at his expense.

[comrade]

Not a big problem against Essendon who are actually quite a slow team despite their media image, but we need to work on our defensive structures in preparation for Collingwood next week.

Not fussed with the Bombers.

This week is all about putting our ducks in a row for the first final. I want to see 80 tackles.

[comrade]

I agree. Nothing against Liam Jones but I would have added another runner at his expense.

The one guy giving us the most defensive pressure in our forward 50 - whilst still kicking goals?

Hahn had to go because Everitt can now give a chop out defensively. If the MC think Mitch is a better option to swing back, they must have forgotten his horrible performance against Leigh Brown.

[bornadog]

Trade bait.

When Hudson goes it will be Minno and Roughie

[Greystache]

I disagree totally, do a player versus player comparison in the speed stakes and we are well off the mark.

I see them live nearly every week, take my word for it they are slow. Their own supporters say when Winderlich is out they are the slowest team in the league. The only players other than him with genuine pace are their fringe players like Jetta.

[Greystache]

Not fussed with the Bombers.

This week is all about putting our ducks in a row for the first final. I want to see 80 tackles.

Agree, absolute minimum.

[LostDoggy]

Trade bait.
I would have thought Cordy is at-least two years away from a second Ruck. So who would back up next year for Hudson and Roughead if we trade him. We should know by the end of next year whether Cordy can play at the higher level then we can look at trading.

[LostDoggy]

When Hudson goes it will be Minno and Roughie

That's the way i was looking at it, although i think Huddo has a while to go yet.

[chef]

When Hudson goes it will be Minno and Roughie

If Huddo goes on for another two seasons It could be Roughead and Cordy.

[chef]

I would have thought Cordy is at-least two years away from a second Ruck. So who would back up next year for Hudson and Roughead if we trade him. We should know by the end of next year whether Cordy can play at the higher level then we can look at trading.

I agree, I would rather keep him but if he sees himself dropping down to third in line with Cordy also in the wings it could be him and not the club wanting a trade.

[GVGjr]

The one guy giving us the most defensive pressure in our forward 50 - whilst still kicking goals?

Hahn had to go because Everitt can now give a chop out defensively. If the MC think Mitch is a better option to swing back, they must have forgotten his horrible performance against Leigh Brown.

You're right but it still would have been a decision between Jones and Hahn for me

[Twodogs]

You're right but it still would have been a decision between Jones and Hahn for me


If only every decision was as easy as that one.

[LostDoggy]

If Huddo goes on for another two seasons It could be Roughead and Cordy.



I agree, I would rather keep him but if he sees himself dropping down to third in line with Cordy also in the wings it could be him and not the club wanting a trade.


Agree - Cordy in a year or two will overtake Minson based on Wills current form line. That said I think there is room for 3 ruckmen on the list - whether it gets to the point though that Will is permanently in the 2's only time will tell - if this is the case you would expect him to be looking elsewhere.

[Go_Dogs]

Agree - Cordy in a year or two will overtake Minson based on Wills current form line. That said I think there is room for 3 ruckmen on the list - whether it gets to the point though that Will is permanently in the 2's only time will tell - if this is the case you would expect him to be looking elsewhere.

No disrespect to Ayce, but what is his current form line? He hasn't been able to string together any games at all over his first 2 years, and it's likely it'll be another couple at least before he can.

I certainly still think Minson offers quite a bit, and I don't see why we wouldn't keep all three (Hudson, Roughie and Minson)

[The Bulldogs Bite]

No disrespect to Ayce, but what is his current form line? He hasn't been able to string together any games at all over his first 2 years, and it's likely it'll be another couple at least before he can.

I certainly still think Minson offers quite a bit, and I don't see why we wouldn't keep all three (Hudson, Roughie and Minson)

Our supporters get carried away with Ayce. Reality is, he's done nothing even when he's been on the park. I made the comment at our intra club game this year that people were praising Cordy and slamming Grant. Cordy had maybe 2 possessions.

He's extremely raw and he'll take another 2 or 3 years before we see much of him IMO.

Minson still has a spot on the list, possibly even in the 22. He did have an interrupted pre-season after all.

[LostDoggy]

Not a big problem against Essendon who are actually quite a slow team despite their media image, but we need to work on our defensive structures in preparation for Collingwood next week.

They looked very quick against us last time we played them. If there is one thing I would like to see this weekend is some pressure in our inside 50 - nonexistent last time

[Mofra]

I saw enough last year to suggest to me that Ayce will be a good player for us, but that was more to do with workrate & running ability as a forward (and some crumbing efforts). Jones wasn't playing then (and has overtaken him) and Grant has certainly overtaken him.

I wouldn't want to bank on Cordy being right in two years' time, considering he has the same build of a young Warnock and he's taken longer to establish himself. Will is a no 1 bash & crash ruck and will take over from Hudson when he retires, as well as filling in over the next two years considering Hudson will probably be rested here and there - and as we've seen with Johnno, Aker & West, when an older player starts to decline it's more like hitting a cliff than a gentle slope.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

In regards to the side we're fielding, surely we can't carry all of Grant, Jones, Hahn and Everitt to the finals?

Grant and Everitt should be a lock.

Jones applies plenty of defensive pressure - should get the nod.

It leaves Hahn in the dark, obviously, but who should replace him? Is it worth playing somebody like Stack despite his cruel flaws of intensity? At least he's quick - puts him ahead of Mitch.

[stefoid]

They looked very quick against us last time we played them. If there is one thing I would like to see this weekend is some pressure in our inside 50 - nonexistent last time

Essendon play quick, regardless of their legs peed. If you dont force them to turn it over they will kill you - like they did to us last time. Not a team to get lazy against. On the other hand, if you pressure them they fold like a 3 legged card table.

Cordy is hyper thin and delicate (loose joints, shoulder recos, etc...). Long term he seems to me to be a forward and punch hit ruck. It would be madness to trade Minson and leave us one injury away from playing Williams in the ruck.

Besides, there is nothing to say that Minson wont improve - he certainly has pressure on his spot for now, so balls in his court. time to sing for your supper Will.

edit: I was going to change legs peed to leg speed, but with essendon, I think Ill leave it how I typed it :)

[mjp]

It leaves Hahn in the dark, obviously, but who should replace him? Is it worth playing somebody like Stack despite his cruel flaws of intensity? At least he's quick - puts him ahead of Mitch.

I am happy to give Mitch Hahn the benefit of the doubt re- last week. It was his first one back in and everyone got beaten. If he is poor again this weekend to me that is the end of it though and he shouldn't play again this year.

I wouldn't play Stack under any circumstances. To me he is a marginal state level player, let alone an AFL player. He wont put his head over the ball and fumbles under pressure.

Hill has been very poor at times - that I know. I would back him in now though - if there is anyone outside the core group who could provide some legitimate run and goals - proven at AFL level - it is Josh. I think he is STILL our third leading goal-kicker on the season, in only 12 games.

Isn't it time to show some faith and back him in?

[Murphy'sLore]

Hill has been very poor at times - that I know. I would back him in now though - if there is anyone outside the core group who could provide some legitimate run and goals - proven at AFL level - it is Josh. I think he is STILL our third leading goal-kicker on the season, in only 12 games.

Isn't it time to show some faith and back him in?

^^^^ This. At the risk of showing my ignorance, isn't the game decided in the end on who kicks the most goals? I understand Hill has many flaws, but he does seem to kick goals, doesn't he?

[Bulldog4life]

Who thinks Higgo is still a chance? Apparently having blood tests to see if he is ok to play.

If he is right to go it wouldn't surprise me either if there is a late change. Who for, I'm not quite sure. Jones or Hahn seem most likely.

[Greystache]

I am happy to give Mitch Hahn the benefit of the doubt re- last week. It was his first one back in and everyone got beaten. If he is poor again this weekend to me that is the end of it though and he shouldn't play again this year.

I wouldn't play Stack under any circumstances. To me he is a marginal state level player, let alone an AFL player. He wont put his head over the ball and fumbles under pressure.

Hill has been very poor at times - that I know. I would back him in now though - if there is anyone outside the core group who could provide some legitimate run and goals - proven at AFL level - it is Josh. I think he is STILL our third leading goal-kicker on the season, in only 12 games.

Isn't it time to show some faith and back him in?

I agree with all of tbat MJP, especially in relation to Hill, his defensive pressure was no worse than Higgins and at least he provided some offensive upside. Why Hill's lack of defensive output is so strongly scrutinized by the coaching staff remains a mystery to me when Johnson, Higgins, Cross, and Boyd wouldn't even be aware what number guernsey their opponents wore if ir weren't for the pre-game videos.

[Desipura]

I am happy to give Mitch Hahn the benefit of the doubt re- last week. It was his first one back in and everyone got beaten. If he is poor again this weekend to me that is the end of it though and he shouldn't play again this year.

I wouldn't play Stack under any circumstances. To me he is a marginal state level player, let alone an AFL player. He wont put his head over the ball and fumbles under pressure.

Hill has been very poor at times - that I know. I would back him in now though - if there is anyone outside the core group who could provide some legitimate run and goals - proven at AFL level - it is Josh. I think he is STILL our third leading goal-kicker on the season, in only 12 games.

Isn't it time to show some faith and back him in?

I agree and furthermore he creates a mismatch due to his ability to take an overhead mark, something Johnno used to do.

[LostDoggy]

I am happy to give Mitch Hahn the benefit of the doubt re- last week. It was his first one back in and everyone got beaten. If he is poor again this weekend to me that is the end of it though and he shouldn't play again this year.

I wouldn't play Stack under any circumstances. To me he is a marginal state level player, let alone an AFL player. He wont put his head over the ball and fumbles under pressure.

Hill has been very poor at times - that I know. I would back him in now though - if there is anyone outside the core group who could provide some legitimate run and goals - proven at AFL level - it is Josh. I think he is STILL our third leading goal-kicker on the season, in only 12 games.

Isn't it time to show some faith and back him in?

Post of the week. I dont think we have a choice but to play Hill and had him in my side this week. Hahn preferrably or Jones to make way, depending on if Hahn can show why he is better value than Jones.

If I was an Essendon player I would tank this game just to see the back of Knights.

[bornadog]

I agree with all of tbat MJP, especially in relation to Hill, his defensive pressure was no worse than Higgins and at least he provided some offensive upside. Why Hill's lack of defensive output is so strongly scrutinized by the coaching staff remains a mystery to me when Johnson, Higgins, Cross, and Boyd wouldn't even be aware what number guernsey their opponents wore if ir weren't for the pre-game videos.

Cross is one of our best tacklers and averages just over 5 per game, compared to Hill's 3.7. Cross's biggest issue is pace.

However, I agree Hill should have been given a chance to show something this week.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

If their is any truth to Hall having a leg problem I would rest him play Jones at FF and bring in Hill.

Just the same we have a fair better side than the Bombers, Eade should be sitting Josh down and stating the future direction based on Hills performance from now till the end of the year.It may just be the 'X' factor that we have all been waiting for.

If not trade him as it looks like he cant play for the current side/coaches.

Leave Higgo out as no need to risk him just give him a small run at willie if needed.

Also it should be interesting to see how DFA goes these are the moments that you pay back the faith of be a list clogger for so long and get an extension to your current contract. A bit like Tiller last year.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I am happy to give Mitch Hahn the benefit of the doubt re- last week. It was his first one back in and everyone got beaten. If he is poor again this weekend to me that is the end of it though and he shouldn't play again this year.

I wouldn't play Stack under any circumstances. To me he is a marginal state level player, let alone an AFL player. He wont put his head over the ball and fumbles under pressure.

Hill has been very poor at times - that I know. I would back him in now though - if there is anyone outside the core group who could provide some legitimate run and goals - proven at AFL level - it is Josh. I think he is STILL our third leading goal-kicker on the season, in only 12 games.

Isn't it time to show some faith and back him in?

I definitely agree with you mjp and I've been a supporter of Hill for most of the season, but I didn't bother mentioning him because his cards are already marked for this season.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I am happy to give Mitch Hahn the benefit of the doubt re- last week. It was his first one back in and everyone got beaten. If he is poor again this weekend to me that is the end of it though and he shouldn't play again this year.

I wouldn't play Stack under any circumstances. To me he is a marginal state level player, let alone an AFL player. He wont put his head over the ball and fumbles under pressure.

Hill has been very poor at times - that I know. I would back him in now though - if there is anyone outside the core group who could provide some legitimate run and goals - proven at AFL level - it is Josh. I think he is STILL our third leading goal-kicker on the season, in only 12 games.

Isn't it time to show some faith and back him in?

No.
Yes.
And no.

Stick a fork in Hahn, he's done. I simply can't see what he can offer. He's too short to play on talls, he's too slow to play on smalls and not damaging enough on the odd occassions he does get the ball. Sure he's strong, but unless Rhino O'Connor makes a comeback I can't see a single player in the league he could play on. Thanks Mitch, get your manager to make some enquiries to see if anyone else will give you another go but I suspect your time in the AFL is over.

Stack is not up to it yet but has made slow but steady progress. Not this year but I'd give him another go at some stage next year and if he has continued to improve he could still make it.

Hill has talent, no question, but his efforts at Willi have been abysmal and I wouldn't reward them with a senior spot. His body language looks to me a lot like Nathan Brown right before he left. I'll guess that Josh has already decided he's moving on and is just going through the motions at Willi.



Murphy's Lore:
"At the risk of showing my ignorance, isn't the game decided in the end on who kicks the most goals?"

In the 1972 grand final Richmond kicked 22, it didn't help them, Carlton kicked 28.
When Sydney and West Coast won in 2005/06 they kicked about 8 or 9 each.

Kicking goals is only half the equation, and a goal stopped is worth just as much as a goal scored. To play someone who picks up 2 or 3 soft ones out the back but lets his opponent run off him and set up half a dozen for them means we lose.

[mjp]

Fair enough SS.

I hate yo-yo selections which is why I supported the retention of Hahn. I didn't want him picked LAST week, but when he was figured that since we were beaten so badly across the ground that the blame could hardly be laid at his feet.

I know what you are saying re- Hill and I understand why he wasn't picked. But with Cooney out we need some class and he is all we have left. If the plan is to play a clearly restricted Harbrow as a mid and Addison down back, then I hate the plan. We are changing an elite running defender into an average midfielder and adding a defender (Addison) who can't hit targets by foot. It wont work.

[Sedat]

I know what you are saying re- Hill and I understand why he wasn't picked. But with Cooney out we need some class and he is all we have left. If the plan is to play a clearly restricted Harbrow as a mid and Addison down back, then I hate the plan. We are changing an elite running defender into an average midfielder and adding a defender (Addison) who can't hit targets by foot. It wont work.
Agree with this. Addison has been playing midfield for Willy the last few weeks and has reportedly been impressive in the role. He will be another hard-arse in the middle to at least make life difficult for Pendlebury and Ball to extract it out of the stoppages. Also being defensively-oriented, he will add some much-needed accountability in the middle. The thing with Addison moreso than most is that he is a confidence player - he was terrific in 2008 for a number of weeks when his confidence was up and he has gained some confidence at Willy in recent weeks.

We still need dash and rebound off half back, which is what Harbrow excels at. Having Addison down there is heart in mouth stuff with his questionable disposal and he would get torched by the clever small forwards for the opposition. Plus we are a chance to get Wood back next week, which will relieve Hargrave to play the more defensive lock-down role to replace Morris.

Now if we can get Boyd and Cross to focus some time on clearing space for Griff and protecting the drop zone from their direct opponents, we can nullify the Collingwood midfield clearance threat. Important to note that Hudson regularly beats up on Jolly for fun, so if the natural order is maintained next week, Collingwood has a reduced weapon in their ruck division.

[LostDoggy]

I am happy to give Mitch Hahn the benefit of the doubt re- last week. It was his first one back in and everyone got beaten. If he is poor again this weekend to me that is the end of it though and he shouldn't play again this year.

I wouldn't play Stack under any circumstances. To me he is a marginal state level player, let alone an AFL player. He wont put his head over the ball and fumbles under pressure.

Hill has been very poor at times - that I know. I would back him in now though - if there is anyone outside the core group who could provide some legitimate run and goals - proven at AFL level - it is Josh. I think he is STILL our third leading goal-kicker on the season, in only 12 games.

Isn't it time to show some faith and back him in?

Agree with your post mjp.

[Greystache]

Cross is one of our best tacklers and averages just over 5 per game, compared to Hill's 3.7. Cross's biggest issue is pace.

However, I agree Hill should have been given a chance to show something this week.

You get a hell of a lot more chances to tackle playing in the midfield, particularly at stoppages, Hill's 3.7 tackles would be by comparison higher.

[Greystache]

I am happy to give Mitch Hahn the benefit of the doubt re- last week. It was his first one back in and everyone got beaten. If he is poor again this weekend to me that is the end of it though and he shouldn't play again this year.

I think we'll see Mitch lining up in defence from here on in.

[Desipura]

I think we'll see Mitch lining up in defence from here on in.
If so, he will take Brown against Collingwood and at best break even. Whereas a Williams for example would be able to run off him.

[mighty_west]

I think we'll see Mitch lining up in defence from here on in.

Let's just hope he doesn't get exposed for his lack of pace come finals, at least with Presti he wears his opponents like a glove.

[Greystache]

Let's just hope he doesn't get exposed for his lack of pace come finals, at least with Presti he wears his opponents like a glove.

The challenge is there for him, let's hope he can rise to it.

[LostDoggy]

I agree with above sentiments. Forget the knockers and nay sayers. Play Josh Hill.

[LostDoggy]

Anyone know if all 3 emergencies are playing for Willy today at Box Hill?

Ignore that - just checked the Willy tweets, and all 3 mentioned...

[EasternWest]

Damn, wrong thread, sorry.

[EasternWest]

Let's just hope he doesn't get exposed for his lack of pace come finals, at least with Presti he wears his opponents like a glove.

True, and I actually think Presti's pretty quick in a straight line too, which is one of the reasons he troubles Hall. He can't get an easy break on him.

Very underrated Presti, IMO.