Can the Current Players and Staff win a Flag?

[Jasper]

Has this group gone as far it can? Unfortunately it has.

The Coach has built a spine around the below players, for varying reasons such as the increased speed of the game, perhaps motivation of some players, players aging, the club has decisions to make.

The first decision is on the coach. Has Rocket fallen in love with players, and has this cost the club? Is Rocket too conservative? Is his gameplan capable of winning finals and flags? Most importantly, can Rocket get the best out of his senior group and develop the new players? Has he failed with players like Hill and Everitt?

Personally, I think Rocket has had ample opportunity to build a list to win a flag. This list is now one of the oldest in the league, and the names below are over 27 or over.

Rather than wait until Round 10 next year, I believe Eade should be removed after our last game while there is at least one opportunity for him (at Essendon), and a young, new coach be given an opportunity (I don’t believe we have the funds to target Roos or Malthouse). Thoughts on players below:

Cross, Daniel, 27

Hard as a cats head, but Leigh Brown can outrun him

Boyd, Matthew, 28
Hard at it, wins the ball, but turns it over regularly and isn’t quick

Realistically only one of Boyd and Cross should stay on our list next year, Ward and Reid are all this type of player and we can’t keep so many slowish, not great footy users in our team, (Our speed won’t improve with Libba and Wallis either). We should trade one of the above for a quicker more skilled player.

Giansiracusa, Daniel, 28
Good user, not strong enough to beat his man, not fast enough to outrun him
He stays but if our list was in good shape, he would be a fringe player, is not a core player we should be relying on heavily, but we do.

Lake, Brian, 28
Elite - General of Defence, even when half fit.

Morris, Dale, 28
Great – doesn’t offer much attack but doesn’t get beaten
With Lake, backbone of defence.

Murphy, Robert, 28
Still great (when fit). His fragile body really means he must stay back

Gilbee, Lindsay, 29
Since hurting his ankle a couple of years ago seems to have lost speed and more importantly his appetite for the contest. We need a new Lindsay, can this old Lindsay reinvigorate himself? Don’t know and an elite kicker is required at our club, so he has to stay.

Hahn, Mitchell , 29
Used to give a contest, now struggles to get to one
Thank you and goodbye

Hargrave, Ryan, 29
Uses the ball extremely poorly under pressure. Struggle to see why he appears to be an automatic inclusion
Should be a depth player at best - no trade value

Hudson, Ben, 31
Tries hard, not a great tap ruckman, but always provides a contest.
A good player, and his future is dependent on the future direction of the club, his market value, and the club’s view on Minson.

Eagleton, Nathan, 32
Running hard and ball use were his strengths, both have faded, his weaknesses are still apparent
Thank you and goodbye

Akermanis, Jason, 33
Gone and good riddance

Hall, Barry, 33
A revelation this year, but needs more support around him, and maybe even has two years left. Required, and good to see a succession plan in place

Johnson, Brad, 34
One of the best dogs players I have seen, but not now, injury has cruelled him, his ball use is not strong, his contested marking is almost gone, his defensive pressure minimal. Very sadly, thank you and goodbye

[Rance Fan]

Good review...Win a flag...unlikely

[GVGjr]

Has this group gone as far it can? Unfortunately it has.

The Coach has built a spine around the below players, for varying reasons such as the increased speed of the game, perhaps motivation of some players, players aging, the club has decisions to make.

The first decision is on the coach. Has Rocket fallen in love with players, and has this cost the club? Is Rocket too conservative? Is his gameplan capable of winning finals and flags? Most importantly, can Rocket get the best out of his senior group and develop the new players? Has he failed with players like Hill and Everitt?

Personally, I think Rocket has had ample opportunity to build a list to win a flag. This list is now one of the oldest in the league, and the names below are over 27 or over.

Rather than wait until Round 10 next year, I believe Eade should be moved after our last game while there is at least one opportunity for him (at Essendon), and a young, new coach be given an opportunity (I don’t believe we have the funds to target Roos or Malthouse).


The million dollar questions. Whilst I'm a strong supporter of Eade I think he might have too much faith in a select few and that hasn't served him well this year. I think he should have seen the writing on the wall at the end of last year but he obviously thought we had a genuine chance to win the flag with the list we had and decided to top up rather than make some hard calls.
I think he has genuinely done a good job in developing young players providing they have the intensity that he feels is needed and this is part of the reason why the likes of Everitt and Hill have struggled to hold their spots.

As for moving Eade on, I don't think that is a viable option at all. Perhaps he needs a ruthless 2IC rather than Cameron.

[MrMahatma]

I'd shop Boyd and move Gia into the midfield. I don't think Gia is particularly brilliant, but he plays his best footy there and is cleaner than Boyd. Gia is an average HFF but could be a 'good' mid.

I'm over Boyd.

[Jasper]

As for moving Eade on, I don't think that is a viable option at all.

Mate I rate your considered opinions, can you elaborate further on your reasons for above?

[Jasper]

I'd shop Boyd and move Gia into the midfield. I don't think Gia is particularly brilliant, but he plays his best footy there and is cleaner than Boyd. Gia is an average HFF but could be a 'good' mid.

I'm over Boyd.

Does Gia have the tank, speed and body strength to play midfield full time??

[GVGjr]

Mate I rate your considered opinions, can you elaborate further on your reasons for above?

There is a number of reasons:

He has a contract until the end of 2011 and I'm a firm believer that contracts should be honored
There isn't that many ready made coaches
The side has had a wretched run with injuries at a critical time (I'm loathe to use this reason but it is a consideration)
And I think he can bounce back from this year.

I think we need to shake up the football department.
A different focus on list management, recruiting and the way the match committee performs should be the focus that would give us a lot more than just changing the coach.

[GVGjr]

Does Gia have the tank, speed and body strength to play midfield full time??

No he doesn't but a couple of seasons back he was used more on and off the bench and this helped him in the midfield.

[anfo27]

There is a number of reasons:

He has a contract until the end of 2011 and I'm a firm believer that contracts should be honored
There isn't that many ready made coaches
The side has had a wretched run with injuries at a critical time (I'm loathe to use this reason but it is a consideration)
And I think he can bounce back from this year.

I think we need to shake up the football department.
A different focus on list management, recruiting and the way the match committee performs should be the focus that would give us a lot more than just changing the coach.

What about his so called coaching & tactical nous? he continually gets out coached and everything he tried tonight did not even look like working.

[Scorlibo]

I'm not sure the current group can win a flag, but the one thing the club could do to put that beyond doubt would be to 'shop' players. For years we have bagged Terry Wallace, Nathan Brown, Jordan McMahon, these guys for being disloyal. It would tear my heart out, tear the heart out of the club, to sell a player. It would make all that the club are striving for that much less important.

Collingwood are the perfect example of what creates success. It's not about having the perfect personnel, it's about those personnel working as a perfect team, knowing each other's strengths and tendencies. An experienced team wins premierships, not a team of experienced players, and it astounds me how often people in the media fail to distinguish between the two.

[Jasper]

There is a number of reasons:

He has a contract until the end of 2011 and I'm a firm believer that contracts should be honored
There isn't that many ready made coaches
The side has had a wretched run with injuries at a critical time (I'm loathe to use this reason but it is a consideration)
And I think he can bounce back from this year.

I think we need to shake up the football department.
A different focus on list management, recruiting and the way the match committee performs should be the focus that would give us a lot more than just changing the coach.

So you don't go to the Essendon and Carlton school of management:)

Tend to agree in principle. How would a conversation go with Eade to the effect that "Rodney we intend to honour your contract for 2011, however there is a strong chance your contract won't be renewed post 2011, you have our blessing if you wish to pursue the two coaching positions that are open at the moment. In the interim we must say we are concerned about the lack of progress in some of the younger players and the lack of consistent opportunity they have been given. The continual playing of patently ill players such as Brad Johnson and Shaun Higgins, is a concern. We are therefore looking to introduce new systems and processes to maximise the performance of our list. This may mean a diminishment of your responsibilities."

[comrade]

I'm not sure the current group can win a flag, but the one thing the club could do to put that beyond doubt would be to 'shop' players. For years we have bagged Terry Wallace, Nathan Brown, Jordan McMahon, these guys for being disloyal. It would tear my heart out, tear the heart out of the club, to sell a player. It would make all that the club are striving for that much less important.

Collingwood are the perfect example of what creates success. It's not about having the perfect personnel, it's about those personnel working as a perfect team, knowing each other's strengths and tendencies. An experienced team wins premierships, not a team of experienced players, and it astounds me how often people in the media fail to distinguish between the two.

It's a good point, but there is something 'broken' within our team that is stopping us from taking the next step.

Is it because the players aren't good enough? Is it cultural?

Whatever it is, it needs to be fixed if we ever want to taste ultimate success, but I agree that trading blokes out isn't the answer.

[G-Mo77]

Cross, Daniel, 27

Hard as a cats head, but Leigh Brown can outrun him

Boyd, Matthew, 28
Hard at it, wins the ball, but turns it over regularly and isn’t quick

Realistically only one of Boyd and Cross should stay on our list next year, Ward and Reid are all this type of player and we can’t keep so many slowish, not great footy users in our team, (Our speed won’t improve with Libba and Wallis either). We should trade one of the above for a quicker more skilled player.



I love both these guys but I want to know at what point the defensive side of their game went missing? Both used to be able to get a lot of the ball and hold their opponent at bay fairly well now they still get a lot of the pill but their opponents get it just as much and are just so much more damaging!

[MrMahatma]

I love both these guys but I want to know at what point the defensive side of their game went missing? Both used to be able to get a lot of the ball and hold their opponent at bay fairly well now they still get a lot of the pill but their opponents get it just as much and are just so much more damaging!
Exactly. Compounded by the fact that their disposal is as bad as ever.

[LostDoggy]

It's a good point, but there is something 'broken' within our team that is stopping us from taking the next step.

Is it because the players aren't good enough? Is it cultural?

Whatever it is, it needs to be fixed if we ever want to taste ultimate success, but I agree that trading blokes out isn't the answer.

Its luck, I believe. Far worse teams than this have won flags. Dogs 2010 beats Crows 1997 and 1998.

[lemmon]

The question mark over Eade is growing substantially in my own mind. Is he capable of taking the final step and winning a flag? At Sydney and now with us he seems incapable of taking that last leap, does he have the finishing skills required? He is capable of building and getting the best out of a list but is by far the longest serving coach without a flag, questions must be raised.
His man managment also must be questioned, he seems to have only one approach and whenever things go wrong he seems to respond with a massive spray, has this method began to wear off and dull for the group?

Mark Williams as a proven premiership coach is now on the market and if we were to part way's with Eade there is seemingly a capable replacement on the horizon.

[Hotdog60]

The question mark over Eade is growing substantially in my own mind. Is he capable of taking the final step and winning a flag? At Sydney and now with us he seems incapable of taking that last leap, does he have the finishing skills required? He is capable of building and getting the best out of a list but is by far the longest serving coach without a flag, questions must be raised.
His man managment also must be questioned, he seems to have only one approach and whenever things go wrong he seems to respond with a massive spray, has this method began to wear off and dull for the group?

Mark Williams as a proven premiership coach is now on the market and if we were to part way's with Eade there is seemingly a capable replacement on the horizon.

Anybody but Williams, ex- Collingwood tie pulling wank.

[Topdog]

I love both these guys but I want to know at what point the defensive side of their game went missing? Both used to be able to get a lot of the ball and hold their opponent at bay fairly well now they still get a lot of the pill but their opponents get it just as much and are just so much more damaging!

I'm in the same boat.

Serious question here. Has there ever been a more disappointing moment that has no bearing on the final result than Cross being outrun by Leigh Brown?

[Jasper]

It would tear my heart out, tear the heart out of the club, to sell a player. It would make all that the club are striving for that much less important.

Collingwood are the perfect example of what creates success. It's not about having the perfect personnel, it's about those personnel working as a perfect team, knowing each other's strengths and tendencies. An experienced team wins premierships, not a team of experienced players, and it astounds me how often people in the media fail to distinguish between the two.

Interesting point. I wonder how Josh Fraser, Tarkyn Lockyer, Paul Medhurst and Shane O'Bree hearts feel as the club gets close to ultimate success and they sit on the sidelines. If we were any good, you'd think players like Hargrave, Gia, Johnno and even Gilbee would be in the same boat.

And every club turns players over, its an AFL requirement.

And I can understand your sentiment applying if we were successful, rather than just a good bunch of blokes who take losing well. As far as I'm concerned there needs to be a ruthlessness applied that while not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, still demands and rewards success. I don't think the club addreses poor onfield behaviours, unless your initials are A Everitt that is.

[Jasper]

I'm in the same boat.

Serious question here. Has there ever been a more disappointing moment that has no bearing on the final result than Cross being outrun by Leigh Brown?

Gia's half hearted effort near the boundary line, Callan Ward's field kicking and kicking for goal, Barry Hall's hands in the back, overall timidity, Eades tactics of allowing Maxwell free reign, Boyd's turnovers.....Shaun Higgins and Brad Johnson's inability to raise a gallop, hold their feet or win contested ball, oh hang on you said that had no bearing on the final result....:rolleyes:

Addison's brilliant hard work to win the ball against the odds, and then his kick straight to Thomas in the third quarter, summed up Dylan's career.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I think we all had high expectations for the team this year, Looking at the injuries early on they have plagued us all year. Again it's not an excuse but if you look at the other top 4 sides they are almost 100% fit.

I think the gamble with Eagle, Jonno and Aker hasn't gone our way but I was keen at the start of year on at least two of them.

I am prepared to wait a couple more games to see how we respond and sure we can make the prelim again. although that is not an improvement on last year under the circumstances I'll take it.

The off season I agree they need to sort out the players leadership group and the aging list. As for Rocket I cant see him getting paid out as I don't think anyone out their would do a better job and can we afford to do that. If the assistants are not up to it get it sorted! but we have had a huge turn off in assistant coaches and maybe that is something we need to give some more time too see the benefits.

I still rate the list but we need a strong leadership group that wont go soft in big games.

[Hotdog60]

If we were talking about a replacement for Eade, would Mathews be to far past it.
He got Collingwood over the line and took the Lions to 3 premierships.

[stefoid]

I'm in the same boat.

Serious question here. Has there ever been a more disappointing moment that has no bearing on the final result than Cross being outrun by Leigh Brown?

Hes slow, but we knew that. I was disapointed with his constant turnovers. He had a shocker.

game plan: what was with the kickins.. seriously? what was the plan there? We picked a team for rain, but that doesnt mean we have to play the whole game pretending it was raining

half of collingwoods I50s came from us bombing to an outnumbered contest 55m out and just banging it back in again. FFS!!!!

[Jasper]

I still rate the list but we need a strong leadership group that wont go soft in big games.


This sentence is the problem the club faces, we have a group of proven good H&A players, and they seem to be highly rated by the club, themselves and many supporters.

Problem is the opposition don't rate them (David King, Grant Thomas, Mark McClure, Stan Alves speak of our players with a contempt that I am sure is prevalent in the AFL community), and our senior players continue to fail against quality opposition in big games, whats the stat, two wins in thirteen games in the last few years against Geelong, Saints and Pies?

The only way to address the problem is to change personnel at the high age end of the list, this is where the culture is deepest rooted, this is where the least improvement (or more likely decline) is apparent.

This means hard decisions on a lot of the players I've listed earlier, and first decision is whether Eade can make those decisions, and on this year's performance of rewarding onfield mediocrity to players based on unfounded reputations - Eade's record at the selection table is a massive concern when it comes time to address our list.

[ReLoad]

Problem is the opposition don't rate them (David King, Grant Thomas, Mark McClure, Stan Alves speak of our players with a contempt that I am sure is prevalent in the AFL community), and our senior players continue to fail against quality opposition in big games, whats the stat, two wins in thirteen games in the last few years against Geelong, Saints and Pies?

The way Stan Alves questioned Matthew Boyd last night was appalling, if I was boydy I would have snapped him in half.

If we are taking advice from bitter and twisted old men (3 of the above 4), then were seriously stuffed.

[Jasper]

If we were talking about a replacement for Eade, would Mathews be to far past it.
He got Collingwood over the line and took the Lions to 3 premierships.

I don't believe 'old school' methods that coaches like Eade use, that is when under pressure lose control and give a spray. In the past Barassi used this tactic to great effect. Now many players switch off and lose respect. Yes there is a time to give a bake but only rarely, not weekly.

Looking at his brother, and assuming identical twins with similar grounding and premiership experience would perform similarly (big assumption??), and who has a better way of communicating to younger players, I reckon Chris Scott could be the man.

[Jasper]

The way Stan Alves questioned Matthew Boyd last night was appalling, if I was boydy I would have snapped him in half.

If we are taking advice from bitter and twisted old men (3 of the above 4), then were seriously stuffed.

Mate those bitter and twisted men know something. You don't think the contempt Thomas has for the Bulldogs hasn't permeated through the entire Saints list (wasn't McClure at the Saints when Thomas was)? I reckon the Saints would reckon they can beat us when they want - and they do.

And I think Alves questioned Gilbee.

The Alistair Lynch choking gesture to Scott West continues to haunt.

[ReLoad]

Mate those bitter and twisted men know something. You don't think the contempt Thomas has for the Bulldogs hasn't permeated through the entire Saints list (wasn't McClure at the Saints when Thomas was)? I reckon the Saints would reckon they can beat us when they want - and they do.

And I think Alves questioned Gilbee.

The Alistair Lynch choking gesture to Scott West continues to haunt.

Geez its easy to question the mental fragility of our playing group when your an outsider isnt it?

Its pretty obvious we have flaws and issues, but i've seen my team (dunno about your team) play with more spirit and heart over a long period of time. Remember that game vs collingwood after wallace got the ass? or how about the final in 2006? Or what about when Libba had his head smashed in at waverley against the saints yet still brought Robert harvey down in match saving tackle?

Its amazing how one defining point can turn a match, but you cannot tell me that last year if reiwoldt handt have gotten that free kick that we would not have won that match?

No, were not good enough to win a flag, no we dont have the personel, But only 1 team does, the team that wins, you could apply the same argument to all other 15 teams that dont win the flag.

[azabob]

So you don't go to the Essendon and Carlton school of management:)

Tend to agree in principle. How would a conversation go with Eade to the effect that "Rodney we intend to honour your contract for 2011, however there is a strong chance your contract won't be renewed post 2011, you have our blessing if you wish to pursue the two coaching positions that are open at the moment. In the interim we must say we are concerned about the lack of progress in some of the younger players and the lack of consistent opportunity they have been given. The continual playing of patently ill players such as Brad Johnson and Shaun Higgins, is a concern. We are therefore looking to introduce new systems and processes to maximise the performance of our list. This may mean a diminishment of your responsibilities."

I would love for this to happen but I dont think it will.
Smorgon is too involved / passionate to make an informed decision, does Fantasia have the hard edge to have this conversation and probably Rose would have it but does he have enough understanding of what happens on the field to do it?

[azabob]

Gia's half hearted effort near the boundary line, Callan Ward's field kicking and kicking for goal, Barry Hall's hands in the back, overall timidity, Eades tactics of allowing Maxwell free reign, Boyd's turnovers.....Shaun Higgins and Brad Johnson's inability to raise a gallop, hold their feet or win contested ball, oh hang on you said that had no bearing on the final result....:rolleyes:

Addison's brilliant hard work to win the ball against the odds, and then his kick straight to Thomas in the third quarter, summed up Dylan's career.

Don't forget Hahn not wanting to mark the football he'd rather punch it away, or Harbrow continually running over the footy, or Gilbee and the entire backline having no idea how to get the ball out of the defencive 50.

[Jasper]

Geez its easy to question the mental fragility of our playing group when your an outsider isnt it?


You don't seem to want to ackowledge or look at our big game performance recently.

2 wins
13 losses

against other top teams recently.

I reckon we have been good enough (perhaps not late this year), so it must be mental. I reckon last year we were desperately unlucky against the Saints, but don't tell me we didn't tighten up and choke against Geelong in the Qualifying final, this is the game you set your finals series up....how many of those have we won??

[azabob]

Things need to change.

The lack of faith in the younger players is the most disapointing especially considering when we did get on a roll it was without Eagelton, Hahn, Johnson.

But how do we as members make this change happen?

Can we?

Will we be satisfied if Hahn, Eagelton and Johnson move on at the end of the year? Or does more need to happen?

It appears Boyd isn't what we thought he was and the game is past Cross and even Hargrave and Gilbee to a degree.

We commit so much time, money and energy supporting the club and will continue to but the worst thing of all is the feeling of helplessnes about the whole thing.

[LostDoggy]

Simply, NO

[bornadog]

What about his so called coaching & tactical nous? he continually gets out coached and everything he tried tonight did not even look like working.

What do you know about being out coached? How do you come to this conclusion. I would love an explanation if you are going to make flippant remarks.

[bornadog]

The lack of faith in the younger players is the most disapointing especially considering when we did get on a roll it was without Eagelton, Hahn, Johnson.

.

What does that mean? We have given all young players a chance this year to prove themselves. Roughead, Jones, Grant, Wood, Stack, Everitt, Ward, Hill, Reid. Moles, have all had a go.

Who hasn't been shown any faith after showing some sort of form?

After last nights performance, I will conceed, that maybe Jones should have played and you know what, even Hill and Stack.

[azabob]

What does that mean? We have given all young players a chance this year to prove themselves. Roughead, Jones, Grant, Wood, Stack, Everitt, Ward, Hill, Reid. Moles, have all had a go.

Who hasn't been shown any faith after showing some sort of form?

After last nights performance, I will conceed, that maybe Jones should have played and you know what, even Hill and Stack.

Jones should have played ahead of Johnson. Jones can get to contests and provide a leading option, Johnson cannot do that currently.

Moles should have played ahead of Eagelton. Moles disposal is suspect but he will put his head over the footy and get to contests, Eagleton's disposal is suspect and couldn't get to contests.


My point being is younger players did well and when finals comes along they seem to be left out of the side.

Strange as it sounds I think we missed Jones last night as the lead up forward. Yes he turned it over last week but he got a lot of it.

[Charlie the Wonder Dog]

What do you know about being out coached? How do you come to this conclusion. I would love an explanation if you are going to make flippant remarks.


BAD

While not professing to have the expertise of many on this board, I am perplexed as to how we seemed powerless to get numbers to contests on the wings. Everyone knows that 'the filth' play down the wings and continually I saw 4 on 2s all last night.

To be sure we took in a number of players who were hampered by injuries, but what I wanted to see most last night was a scrap and instead I watched a training drill down both wings for the team in black and white.

I think Rodney is a very good coach and has done wonderful things for this club, but I left the ground with my confidence in him badly shaken.

[lemmon]

Anybody but Williams, ex- Collingwood tie pulling wank.

Who gives a flying toss, coached one of the more successful team of the last decade, won a flag and for a long time was seen as the premier coach in the competition. He could be just what we need to get the best out of an aging group, still capable of snagging one.
He could be Satan himself if he won us a flag and I would still love him.

[Topdog]

No, were not good enough to win a flag, no we dont have the personel, But only 1 team does, the team that wins, you could apply the same argument to all other 15 teams that dont win the flag.

Sorry but that is crap. Last year we and the Saints both had good enough personnel to win the flag and this year again 3 teams do - geelong, Saints and Collingwood.

[LostDoggy]

My main impression being at the game last night was their structures killed us as much as anything, even more so than our injuries or poor selection or whatever. They are incredibly well drilled and disciplined in their zone/ press whatever you want to call it and we had no answers for it. Take a couple of the pies good ball users and put them in the red white and blue last night and they would have struggled just like most of our players, looking up and seeing that wall of black and white . Collingwood dont have a greatly superior playing group to us imo.

[Stefcep]

My main impression being at the game last night was their structures killed us as much as anything, even more so than our injuries or poor selection or whatever. They are incredibly well drilled and disciplined in their zone/ press whatever you want to call it and we had no answers for it. Take a couple of the pies good ball users and put them in the red white and blue last night and they would have struggled just like most of our players, looking up and seeing that wall of black and white . Collingwood dont have a greatly superior playing group to us imo.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Collingwood is a team of plodders who are supremely well coached by the best coach in the league. Plus they have a winning club culture.

[Mofra]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Collingwood is a team of plodders who are supremely well coached by the best coach in the league. Plus they have a winning club culture.
Bull - they are the team with a huge amount of run, genuine stars and are well drilled, and most importantly they play for each other.
Winning club culture? They are on par with us over the past 60 years.

[LostDoggy]

No, we need to re-vamp our list and build around the "next breed".