The Match Committee/coaching panel

[Rocco Jones]

I have mentioned this in another thread but think it warrants it's own discussion.

I think we need to make changes. I am fine with seeing out Eade's contract but the MC needs a shake up. Looking at the weekly in and out threads and what the MC comes up with, I am sure I am not alone.

Our current MC makes Abbott look progressive.

[lemmon]

Why must we wait to pay out Eades contract? A proven premiership coach is available NOW in Mark Williams, why pass this up? Im not so sure our window is closed but I dont believe Rocket is the man to capitalise. He has shown at Sydney and now with us he lacks the finishing skills to take the final step, he is by far the longest serving coach without a premiership and I cant see that changing.

[MrMahatma]

Why must we wait to pay out Eades contract? A proven premiership coach is available NOW in Mark Williams, why pass this up? Im not so sure our window is closed but I dont believe Rocket is the man to capitalise. He has shown at Sydney and now with us he lacks the finishing skills to take the final step, he is by far the longest serving coach without a premiership and I cant see that changing.
We can't afford to be paying blokes a few hundred grand for nothing. Eade will coach next year. The real worry is that he goes into self preservation mode and stop developing any of our kids.

We should be turning over a load of blokes this year. Loads. If not, it'll be a major worry.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

We can't afford to be paying blokes a few hundred grand for nothing. Eade will coach next year. The real worry is that he goes into self preservation mode and stop developing any of our kids.

If he hasn't already.

I'm convinced he's lost it completely. Might write an in-depth review of this to support my argument, but in short - I don't think he can offer us anything moving forward.

[ReLoad]

I could not disagree more with this type of attitude, The players have gone into a mode where they are not playing for the team, they are only considering themselves.

I'm not saying that rocket's work is perfect but seriously you cant pin this all on him.

we have blooded plenty of new players this year: Wood, Grant, Jones, Roughhead.

The drop off in the ability and performance of the senior group isnt his fault.
Earlier this year we were saying its a masterstroke and these guys should hang around for one last roll of the dice, the gamble didnt pay off, but we gave it a shot.

Id suggest to all of you that the club will now go into a different mode, one which Eade and the MC is capable of going into. Change is needed, yes, but certainly not that drastic.

[Jasper]

The drop off in the ability and performance of the senior group isnt his fault.
Earlier this year we were saying its a masterstroke and these guys should hang around for one last roll of the dice, the gamble didnt pay off, but we gave it a shot.

Id suggest to all of you that the club will now go into a different mode, one which Eade and the MC is capable of going into. Change is needed, yes, but certainly not that drastic.

I am interested to see what happens. If Rocket is kept and I agree that he may well be, his power must be reduced. His decisions this year have been baffling:

1 - Everitt, in out and never got a run at it (while other 'players' just need to be able to tie their shoelaces to get a game - see below
2 - The selection of Hahn when he is patently too slow
3 - The retention of Eagle when he has let us down in big games where he gets no space again and again
4 - The delay in introducing Wood
5 - The playing of Sam Reid throughout a game and wrecking his shoulder and season
6 - Most painfully watching a clearly unfit, injured, underdone Higgins and Johnson waddle around the MCG, and watch hacks beat them, and listen to Pies fans mock them. It was sickening.
7 - The coaching of Boyd, is Boyd's lack of defensive pressure, regular turnovers and decision making acceptable, if so I can't understand it. If not and he has been told, why does he never get dropped?
8 - Giansiracusa - he may look good, have a great family around the club who board the new kids, he may be a great speaker, a coach in the making....but seriously how many times in the big moments does a guy go missing or let you down, before you downscale his leadership role in the team???
9 - The lack of forward line pressure and no 16th in the competition for tackles. Is Eade serious??

My question is can Eade change?? Sydney didn't think so

[GVGjr]

I have mentioned this in another thread but think it warrants it's own discussion.

I think we need to make changes. I am fine with seeing out Eade's contract but the MC needs a shake up. Looking at the weekly in and out threads and what the MC comes up with, I am sure I am not alone.

Our current MC makes Abbott look progressive.

I think you could compile a number of things I have mentioned of late at the match committee and the current list management that would support that a change is required.

[azabob]

I think you could compile a number of things I have mentioned of late at the match committee and the current list management that would support that a change is required.

Isn't Fantasia involved in list management as well as Eade?

As GVGjr said someone from Williamstown needs to be involved, Peter German seems like a bloke who would take crap from no one.

We need someone on the MC to challenge the status quo.

[Grantysghost]

The perfect model was on display last night. Collingwood were there and thereabouts for the last few years with the same personnel.
This year regulars like Fraser, Lockyer, O'Bree, Medhurst havent had a guaranteed spot and struggled as competition for places makes the team hungry. Wellingham, Sidebottom, Brown, Beams, Blair have all become regulars. Blair is a great example, came in played well, coach rewarded him and it shows in his performance.
The pies have a plan, and plug in the players they think can deliver that plan. We look rudderless and hopeful that it will click, seeminlgy without an actual plan to make it happen.

Would any of Hahn, Eagleton, Johnson, Higgins, Giansiracusa (of late) be in Micks side? Our forward pressure last night was appalling for a final.

[bornadog]

Isn't Fantasia involved in list management as well as Eade?

As GVGjr said someone from Williamstown needs to be involved, Peter German seems like a bloke who would take crap from no one.

We need someone on the MC to challenge the status quo.

Peter German is the development coach, so he is already involved.

[comrade]

Peter German is the development coach, so he is already involved.

In MC meetings?

[bornadog]

I am interested to see what happens. If Rocket is kept and I agree that he may well be, his power must be reduced. His decisions this year have been baffling:

1 - Everitt, in out and never got a run at it (while other 'players' just need to be able to tie their shoelaces to get a game - see below HAS SHOWN NOTHING THIS YEAR TO SUGGEST HE IS ANY GOOD

2 - The selection of Hahn when he is patently too slow. AGREE TIMES UP

3 - The retention of Eagle when he has let us down in big games where he gets no space again and again. SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN GIVEN ANOTHER YEAR

4 - The delay in introducing Wood. DONT AGREE DIDN'T WARRANT SELECTION EARLIER

5 - The playing of Sam Reid throughout a game and wrecking his shoulder and season. CRAP

6 - Most painfully watching a clearly unfit, injured, underdone Higgins and Johnson waddle around the MCG, and watch hacks beat them, and listen to Pies fans mock them. It was sickening. YES

7 - The coaching of Boyd, is Boyd's lack of defensive pressure, regular turnovers and decision making acceptable, if so I can't understand it. If not and he has been told, why does he never get dropped? HIS DISPOSAL IS WOEFUL, CAN'T BLAME THE COACHES

8 - Giansiracusa - he may look good, have a great family around the club who board the new kids, he may be a great speaker, a coach in the making....but seriously how many times in the big moments does a guy go missing or let you down, before you downscale his leadership role in the team??? FFS ONE OF THE BEST THIS YEAR, GET OFF HIS BACK. HAVE A LOOK AT HIS SEASON, HE HAS BEEN VERY GOOD AND IN OUR TOP 5 LAST NIGHT WITH 20 DISPOSALS AND 3 GOAL ASSISTS, 5 TACKLES 20 DISPOSALS NOT THE WORST.

9 - The lack of forward line pressure and no 16th in the competition for tackles. Is Eade serious?? WE DON'T HAVE THE PLAYERS IN THE FF.

My question is can Eade change?? Sydney didn't think so DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS STATEMENT, CHANGE WHAT? WE HAVE INTRODUCED A LOT OF YOUNG PLAYERS INTO THE TEAM AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO.

Sorry for capitals trying to show my comments amongst yours.

You want to pick on players, how about Minson 5 disposals, how about Harbrow, bloody atrocious with 23% kicking efficiency, or Cross continually turning it over with his stupid kicks, or Hargrave just bombing the ball.

[GVGjr]

Peter German is the development coach, so he is already involved.


I don't think he is part of the match day selection process. FWIW, I don't think the assistant coaches should be part of the match committee.

[Doc26]

7 - The coaching of Boyd, is Boyd's lack of defensive pressure, regular turnovers and decision making acceptable, if so I can't understand it. If not and he has been told, why does he never get dropped? HIS DISPOSAL IS WOEFUL, CAN'T BLAME THE COACHES


I agree that Matthew's efficiency is sub standard but do you not believe the coaching staff have a role to play in, well, coaching Matthew and finding a role that will be beneficial for the Team ? I have been given the impression that Matthew is not being taken to task by the MC for this efficiency and accountability issue and if true, for this I do blame them.

[Rocco Jones]

I agree that Matthew's efficiency is sub standard but do you not believe the coaching staff have a role to play in, well, coaching Matthew and finding a role that will be beneficial for the Team ? I have been given the impression that Matthew is not being taken to task by the MC for this efficiency and accountability issue and if true, for this I do blame them.

Spot on.

I don't just blame the coaches for Boyd's issues, IMO he is obviously most at fault but I definitely place some blame on them.

I hear about them wanting Boyd to be more accountable but how genuine can it come across when they also have him as the benchmark for intensity and a captain in waiting?

I don't know about everyone else but if I really valued Boyd being accountable I definitely wouldn't have him in line for the captaincy.

[DOG GOD]

Maybe the match committee need to implement something along the lines of the Saints when they dropped Dal Santo and Milne. NO player should be above the fact that they cant be dropped. Each player plays a role in the team and if its individuality over team work then we will never win a premiership. The seeds need to be sown now while the young guns are still coming thru, so that it is drilled into them that egotistical performances will not be tolerated at the Western Bulldogs.

Boyd and Cross need to be told in no uncertain terms, that they either play to team rules or play in the 2's. There should be no grey area between coaches and players. Its as simple as black and white.

[Rocco Jones]

FWIW here's what I like to see happen.

I still believe Eade has something to offer us and really value the work he has done for the club. We definitely have a much more positive benchmark for failure than before he was at the helm.

I would use Eade's last year to help us groom our next coach. Go out and try to get a gun assistant with carrot of taking over the main thing in 2012.

The Swans and Pies are using the model currently and things look alright there from what I can see. Gives a wonderful balance of experience and fresh ideas. I would earmark Eade for a role similar to the one planned for Malthouse once Buckley has taken over.

[mighty_west]

I'm still not giving up on Rocket just yet, he is a very good coach, but i do agree that there needs to be shake up of sorts, we somehoe need to get in people that Rocket really trusts, to question him when need being, to really challenge him etc.

[cambo]

Why must we wait to pay out Eades contract? A proven premiership coach is available NOW in Mark Williams, why pass this up? Im not so sure our window is closed but I dont believe Rocket is the man to capitalise. He has shown at Sydney and now with us he lacks the finishing skills to take the final step, he is by far the longest serving coach without a premiership and I cant see that changing.

Hear Hear!!!!

[LostDoggy]

1 - Everitt, in out and never got a run at it (while other 'players' just need to be able to tie their shoelaces to get a game - see below HAS SHOWN NOTHING THIS YEAR TO SUGGEST HE IS ANY GOOD

Sorry for capitals trying to show my comments amongst yours.



I think he has shown something this year in patches he has just never been given a decent run at it. Some players perhaps respond better to different motivations than others.
Hill is another who has talent but is not coming on as he should, in fact he has gone backwards. Im not an insider so i have no idea but I think it is not unfair to at least question whether the coaches should shoulder some responsibility for their lack of development .

[cambo]

I am interested to see what happens. If Rocket is kept and I agree that he may well be, his power must be reduced. His decisions this year have been baffling:

1 - Everitt, in out and never got a run at it (while other 'players' just need to be able to tie their shoelaces to get a game - see below
2 - The selection of Hahn when he is patently too slow
3 - The retention of Eagle when he has let us down in big games where he gets no space again and again
4 - The delay in introducing Wood
5 - The playing of Sam Reid throughout a game and wrecking his shoulder and season
6 - Most painfully watching a clearly unfit, injured, underdone Higgins and Johnson waddle around the MCG, and watch hacks beat them, and listen to Pies fans mock them. It was sickening.
7 - The coaching of Boyd, is Boyd's lack of defensive pressure, regular turnovers and decision making acceptable, if so I can't understand it. If not and he has been told, why does he never get dropped?
8 - Giansiracusa - he may look good, have a great family around the club who board the new kids, he may be a great speaker, a coach in the making....but seriously how many times in the big moments does a guy go missing or let you down, before you downscale his leadership role in the team???
9 - The lack of forward line pressure and no 16th in the competition for tackles. Is Eade serious??

My question is can Eade change?? Sydney didn't think so

Great reply post agree with everything except no 7 Boyd has been sensational agin this year

[cambo]

The perfect model was on display last night. Collingwood were there and thereabouts for the last few years with the same personnel.
This year regulars like Fraser, Lockyer, O'Bree, Medhurst havent had a guaranteed spot and struggled as competition for places makes the team hungry. Wellingham, Sidebottom, Brown, Beams, Blair have all become regulars. Blair is a great example, came in played well, coach rewarded him and it shows in his performance.
The pies have a plan, and plug in the players they think can deliver that plan. We look rudderless and hopeful that it will click, seeminlgy without an actual plan to make it happen.

Would any of Hahn, Eagleton, Johnson, Higgins, Giansiracusa (of late) be in Micks side? Our forward pressure last night was appalling for a final.

Well said!! No Mick wouldnt have any of them in his team Rocket has always played favourites, did at Sydney has done here.

[bornadog]

I think he has shown something this year in patches he has just never been given a decent run at it. Some players perhaps respond better to different motivations than others.

Didn't Everitt play against Essendon last week and only had 16 touches, coffed up the ball many times with stupid little passes that fell short. I think he has been given his chances, he just doesn't respond.

[comrade]

Didn't Everitt play against Essendon last week and only had 16 touches, coffed up the ball many times with stupid little passes that fell short. I think he has been given his chances, he just doesn't respond.

1 whole game in a row?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Didn't Everitt play against Essendon last week and only had 16 touches, coffed up the ball many times with stupid little passes that fell short. I think he has been given his chances, he just doesn't respond.

You regularly defend the MC, but I don't see why.

There is no logic in picking Hahn over Everitt no matter how you look at it.

[Greystache]

Didn't Everitt play against Essendon last week and only had 16 touches, coffed up the ball many times with stupid little passes that fell short. I think he has been given his chances, he just doesn't respond.

Yet Hahn, Johnson, Eagleton, Higgins get how many chances?

[Topdog]

Didn't Everitt play against Essendon last week and only had 16 touches, coffed up the ball many times with stupid little passes that fell short. I think he has been given his chances, he just doesn't respond.

How did Hahn and Eagleton play? How has Johnno and Higgins played all year?

[LostDoggy]

Going into this game i reckon Doggies fans could have wrote down how Eagleton / Hahn will perform against the pies and 100% of us would have got it correct. Atleast players like Everitt could show us something different? Not the same old same old that the other 2 have produced in big games.

From the first bounce when i saw Harry O on Higgins, Shaw on Johnson and Maxwell lose in defence i knew we were toast.

Malthouse must of loved seeing that, i'm sure that's exactly what he planned for.

[Sedat]

There is no logic in picking Hahn over Everitt no matter how you look at it.
Playing devil's advocate, on form it was a marginal call which of the two should have played as the defensive back up to offset the loss of Morris. And it isn't a future's market - you pick the best 22 you think can win a final on the night. As it transpired, Hahn stunk it up big time in the role, but had Dre played instead there would have been zero bearing on the result.

FWIW, I thought Everitt should have been selected because he was terrific and intense in the slop against Adelaide a month ago. But he hasn't commanded a permanent place in the team on form in the 2nd half of the year - the MC arguably hasn't helped but neither has Dre really commanded his place in the team the way a Jarrad Grant has.

Having said that, if the MC are to apply the logic to drop Dre after the Essendon game, they have to do likewise to Hahn this week. The odds of that happening are extremely long I suspect.

[Rocco Jones]

Playing devil's advocate, on form it was a marginal call which of the two should have played as the defensive back up to offset the loss of Morris. And it isn't a future's market - you pick the best 22 you think can win a final on the night. As it transpired, Hahn stunk it up big time in the role, but has Dre played instead there would have been zero bearing on the result.

FWIW, I thought Everitt should have been selected because he was terrific and intense in the slop against Adelaide a month ago. But he hasn't commanded a permanent place in the team on form in the 2nd half of the year - the MC arguably hasn't helped but neither has Dre really commanded his place in the team the way a Jarrad Grant has.

Having said that, if the MC are to apply the logic to drop Dre after the Essendon game, they have to do likewise to Hahn this week. The odds of that happening are extremely long I suspect.

Spot on Sedat.

[MrMahatma]

How did Hahn and Eagleton play? How has Johnno and Higgins played all year?
Yeah, but they're 'leaders'. Our MC only hold young kids who lack confidence to account for making poor decisions or not chasing hard enough. If you're in the 'leadership clique' then you can do whatever you please...

It is a complete and utter joke.

[MrMahatma]

Playing devil's advocate, on form it was a marginal call which of the two should have played as the defensive back up to offset the loss of Morris. And it isn't a future's market - you pick the best 22 you think can win a final on the night. As it transpired, Hahn stunk it up big time in the role, but had Dre played instead there would have been zero bearing on the result.

FWIW, I thought Everitt should have been selected because he was terrific and intense in the slop against Adelaide a month ago. But he hasn't commanded a permanent place in the team on form in the 2nd half of the year - the MC arguably hasn't helped but neither has Dre really commanded his place in the team the way a Jarrad Grant has.

Having said that, if the MC are to apply the logic to drop Dre after the Essendon game, they have to do likewise to Hahn this week. The odds of that happening are extremely long I suspect.
Agree with the sentiment, and one change of personel (Everitt v Hahn) doesn't change the result. But not making that call compounds our problems.

We look clearly the slowest team in the finals. By a long way I'd say - and the Saints are no speedsters. We're just so freaking slow. Everitt over Hahn improves that slightly. Hill over Johno improves it slightly again. Moles over Higgins... again, incrementally that little bit faster.

The only possible one I can stomach is Higgins playing. IF (major IF) he's past the worst of his illness then he actually would be better for the run. Johno/Hahn/Eagle aren't getting better because they're simply no longer up to it.

[Stefcep]

I agree that Matthew's efficiency is sub standard but do you not believe the coaching staff have a role to play in, well, coaching Matthew and finding a role that will be beneficial for the Team ? I have been given the impression that Matthew is not being taken to task by the MC for this efficiency and accountability issue and if true, for this I do blame them.

i was saying the same thing about Griffen 12 months ago: getting caught trying to break tackes 8 out of ten times, 50 meter runs followed by a kick thats a turnover, stupid low trajectory shots for goal..look at him now.

[FrediKanoute]

Playing devil's advocate, on form it was a marginal call which of the two should have played as the defensive back up to offset the loss of Morris. And it isn't a future's market - you pick the best 22 you think can win a final on the night. As it transpired, Hahn stunk it up big time in the role, but had Dre played instead there would have been zero bearing on the result.

FWIW, I thought Everitt should have been selected because he was terrific and intense in the slop against Adelaide a month ago. But he hasn't commanded a permanent place in the team on form in the 2nd half of the year - the MC arguably hasn't helped but neither has Dre really commanded his place in the team the way a Jarrad Grant has. Having said that, if the MC are to apply the logic to drop Dre after the Essendon game, they have to do likewise to Hahn this week. The odds of that happening are extremely long I suspect.

As I recall he was dropped from the 22 after the Adeliade game for match up reasons.....:rolleyes:

I would bring in Dre, Wood (if fit) and Hill. I'd probably dop Minno (and let dre play as a second ruckman); Johnno (sorry, but the club should have been firmer with him earelier in the year) and Eagle.......

[bornadog]

1 whole game in a row?

Against piss poor opposition and he was beaten.


You regularly defend the MC, but I don't see why.

There is no logic in picking Hahn over Everitt no matter how you look at it.

No not true, I have my opinions as well. I just don't think a bunch of supporters sitting in the stands know more than the MC. However, I believe we should express our opinions with some justification and facts.


Yet Hahn, Johnson, Eagleton, Higgins get how many chances?


How did Hahn and Eagleton play? How has Johnno and Higgins played all year?

Hahn and Eagleton versus Essendon? or on the weekend?

Lets see Higgins averaged 20 disposals, with 32 against Melbourne, 23 v Brisbane, 27 v the Hawks, etc Is that enough to get him in the team?

Johnno - poor by his past stds, but he has had some good games, 24 against Adelaide, 19 against Nth, 20 v Port, 22 v Hawthorn, 18 v Carlton. He has also contributed 25 Goals/Assists.

Eagleton - 26 v Adelaide, 23 v Port, 23 v Nth, has only played 14 games because he was dropped and only came back in due to injuries.

Look, I for one don't believe we can go in with Eagleton, Hahn in future games, but the players coming in must show something and there doesn't seem to be anyone stepping up. Moles has had his chances and can't get his hands on the ball (averaging only 16.6 disposals and playing in the midfield), similarly Everitt.

[Mofra]

The only possible one I can stomach is Higgins playing. IF (major IF) he's past the worst of his illness then he actually would be better for the run. Johno/Hahn/Eagle aren't getting better because they're simply no longer up to it.
I would play Higgins.
He will play next year, and probably be one of the most improved next year given the issues he's had. Eagle & Johnno won't play next year, and I dare say barring miracle Hahn wont play many games either.

As negative as it sounds, I'm already onto planning for 2011 and the guys who will be making an impact next year deserve more of a chance than guys who wont.

[Topdog]

Hahn and Eagleton versus Essendon? or on the weekend?

Lets see Higgins averaged 20 disposals, with 32 against Melbourne, 23 v Brisbane, 27 v the Hawks, etc Is that enough to get him in the team?

Johnno - poor by his past stds, but he has had some good games, 24 against Adelaide, 19 against Nth, 20 v Port, 22 v Hawthorn, 18 v Carlton. He has also contributed 25 Goals/Assists.

Eagleton - 26 v Adelaide, 23 v Port, 23 v Nth, has only played 14 games because he was dropped and only came back in due to injuries.

Look, I for one don't believe we can go in with Eagleton, Hahn in future games, but the players coming in must show something and there doesn't seem to be anyone stepping up. Moles has had his chances and can't get his hands on the ball (averaging only 16.6 disposals and playing in the midfield), similarly Everitt.

Hahn and Eagle against Geelong, Sydney and Essendon.

Higgins - I've no interest in his numbers because he has been clearly hampered by his illness / injuries and despite having good numbers has looked shit all year.

Johnson - 9 against Geelong, 6 against Sydney and would have had under 10 against Collingwood before he was moved to the backline. Excellent form leading into a final. But again you can take out the numbers again and look towards Higgins reasoning.

Eagle - as always against crap sides looks great.

[Sedat]

Hahn and Eagleton versus Essendon? or on the weekend?

Lets see Higgins averaged 20 disposals, with 32 against Melbourne, 23 v Brisbane, 27 v the Hawks, etc Is that enough to get him in the team?

Johnno - poor by his past stds, but he has had some good games, 24 against Adelaide, 19 against Nth, 20 v Port, 22 v Hawthorn, 18 v Carlton. He has also contributed 25 Goals/Assists.

Eagleton - 26 v Adelaide, 23 v Port, 23 v Nth, has only played 14 games because he was dropped and only came back in due to injuries.

Look, I for one don't believe we can go in with Eagleton, Hahn in future games, but the players coming in must show something and there doesn't seem to be anyone stepping up. Moles has had his chances and can't get his hands on the ball (averaging only 16.6 disposals and playing in the midfield), similarly Everitt.
BAD, I reckon you are placing an awful lot of credence on the raw numbers, especially with our forward line group. St Kilda at various stages has a collection of nondescript names of the calibre of McQualter, Eddy, Steven and Geary riding shotgun in the forward 50 alongside Roo, Schneider, Mile and Kosi. These guys are not there to gather cheapies or to initiate the play, they are there to make life extremely difficult for rebounding defenders with sacrificial acts like chasing, harrassing, tackling with intent, blocking space for the talented members of the forward line. Geelong has Varcoe (especially) and Stokes doing the same thing (they would have Rooke in there as well if he was not injured). If you are an O'Brien, Shaw or Maxwell, you will feel implied and real pressure to get rid of it quickly against St Kilda or Geelong. Unfortunately against us, we have Higgins and Johnson physically incapable of providing any defensive-oriented pressure on opposition rebounding defenders, so Collingwood's half back line had a leave pass to do as they wished on Saturday night. You saw when Addison was put onto O'Brien after half time that it completely stopped his rebounding - of course Collingwood just freed up Shaw and Maxwell to provide the run therafter. And it won't get any easier this week against R Shaw, Malceski, Kennelly and Mattner.

Our MC live and breathe the playing group and the opposition on a daily basis, so they obviously know the capabilities of our players and the opposition on any given week. But from a regular watcher's viewpoint, I thought we gave ourselves no chance of curbing a major asset of Collingwood's by the way we structured up in our forward 50. The two players we had selected in defensive roles up forward were physically incapable of performing the role due to hampered preparation and recernt injury/illness. And at the best of times, neither of these guys are what you'd call overly defensive-oriented in any case.

[bornadog]

BAD, I reckon you are placing an awful lot of credence on the raw numbers, especially with our forward line group. St Kilda at various stages has a collection of nondescript names of the calibre of McQualter, Eddy, Steven and Geary riding shotgun in the forward 50 alongside Roo, Schneider, Mile and Kosi. These guys are not there to gather cheapies or to initiate the play, they are there to make life extremely difficult for rebounding defenders with sacrificial acts like chasing, harrassing, tackling with intent, blocking space for the talented members of the forward line. Geelong has Varcoe (especially) and Stokes doing the same thing (they would have Rooke in there as well if he was not injured). If you are an O'Brien, Shaw or Maxwell, you will feel implied and real pressure to get rid of it quickly against St Kilda or Geelong. Unfortunately against us, we have Higgins and Johnson physically incapable of providing any defensive-oriented pressure on opposition rebounding defenders, so Collingwood's half back line had a leave pass to do as they wished on Saturday night. You saw when Addison was put onto O'Brien after half time that it completely stopped his rebounding - of course Collingwood just freed up Shaw and Maxwell to provide the run therafter. And it won't get any easier this week against R Shaw, Malceski, Kennelly and Mattner.

Our MC live and breathe the playing group and the opposition on a daily basis, so they obviously know the capabilities of our players and the opposition on any given week. But from a regular watcher's viewpoint, I thought we gave ourselves no chance of curbing a major asset of Collingwood's by the way we structured up in our forward 50. The two players we had selected in defensive roles up forward were physically incapable of performing the role due to hampered preparation and recernt injury/illness. And at the best of times, neither of these guys are what you'd call overly defensive-oriented in any case.

I agree with your assessment against Collingwood.

I was answering the question why these players were played during the year and I answered.

In hindsight, maybe we should have played more kids in the first half of the year and given them more game time and experience.

I have always said, we should never ever have given Johnno, Aker and Eagle another year and now it looks like Hahn as well. However, with Hahn, on last years performance deserved another year but now he looks finished.

[Topdog]

I was answering the question why these players were played during the year and I answered.


No you didn't, you posted numbers which didn't reflect reality.

[bornadog]

No you didn't, you posted numbers which didn't reflect reality.

Sorry I don't get it? and Frankly I don't care;)

[Topdog]

you didn't answer anything just post meaningless stats

[bornadog]

you didn't answer anything just post meaningless stats

Ok you want to continue the debate fine.

Those stats show that those players were playing better than players who were doing nothing at Willi.

TD, don't get me wrong, I don't think those players have had a fantastic season, what I am saying is the MC chose those players because they had no other choices. At one stage we had Jones, Wood, Roughead, Moles and Grant (discount the 1 game last year) all first year players playing in the same game. How many more first year players can we play in the same game? We have also played Stack and Reid, who are also ineffect first year players.

[Topdog]

The MC had choices this week and they dropped Jones, Moles and Everitt and stuck with the tried and tested failure of Hahn and the Bald Eagle.

[bornadog]

The MC had choices this week and they dropped Jones, Moles and Everitt and stuck with the tried and tested failure of Hahn and the Bald Eagle.

yes and do you feel Jones, Moles and Everitt were playing well? Actually no.

Personally I would have played them, but I can see the MC's reasoning.

[Mantis]

yes and do you feel Jones, Moles and Everitt were playing well? Actually no.

Personally I would have played them, but I can see the MC's reasoning.

The MC's reasoning is all on predictions.

It's predicted that Moles, Everitt & Jones will let us down in finals because they aren't great H&A players, but as yet they haven't played in a final so they haven't failed. As a group or as individuals they might actually lift in a final and surprise the MC with their efforts.

It's known that Hahn & Eagleton will let us down in finals against good teams. Sure they have played well against teams ranked 5-8, they have played a number of finals against top 4 teams have have sucked ass almost each and every time ( Hahn did have a good 10min in last years PF). They are known as failures when push comes to shove in big finals.

Take a risk on a new breed... It isn't like they could perform any worse than our serial finals failures.

[Topdog]

Moles I thought was good and Jones had 1 bad game. Everitt was at the very least on a par with Hahn. I know their reasoning its just pathetic reasoning.

[Desipura]

The MC's reasoning is all on predictions.

It's predicted that Moles, Everitt & Jones will let us down in finals because they aren't great H&A players, but as yet they haven't played in a final so they haven't failed. As a group or as individuals they might actually lift in a final and surprise the MC with their efforts.

It's known that Hahn & Eagleton will let us down in finals against good teams. Sure they have played well against teams ranked 5-8, they have played a number of finals against top 4 teams have have sucked ass almost each and every time ( Hahn did have a good 10min in last years PF). They are known as failures when push comes to shove in big finals.

Take a risk on a new breed... It isn't like they could perform any worse than our serial finals failures.
What is Gilbee, Gia, Hargrave, Murphy, Minson & Boyd's form like in finals against good teams?

[Mantis]

What is Gilbee, Gia, Hargrave, Murphy, Minson & Boyd's form like in finals against good teams?

I only used Hahn & Eagleton as examples as they were the ones being discussed, but if you wish:

Murphy's is ok, especially considering that he has carried injuries into our last 2 finals campaigns.

Gilbee played very well in last years QF, but been poor otherwise.

The rest = crapola.

[Desipura]

I only used Hahn & Eagleton as examples as they were the ones being discussed, but if you wish:

Murphy's is ok, especially considering that he has carried injuries into our last 2 finals campaigns.

Gilbee played very well in last years QF, but been poor otherwise.

The rest = crapola.
Therein lies the problem I think. I know Murphy went in injured, I really like Murphy as a player.
Morris went in with a broken leg and did very well against one of the best big men in Riewoldt. Is it any wonder why I now think he should be made captain.

[Mofra]

Murphy was behind on Griffen last weekend in our best for me, I still have plenty of faith in him.

The problem is our best ball winners (Griffen aside) have questionable footskills, and disposal efficiency in finals drops due to the extra pressure. We really need the HB line to work hard to deliver the ball and run hard for handball receives, but we couldn't generate that run last weekend (Murphy aside).

[bornadog]

The MC's reasoning is all on predictions.

It's predicted that Moles, Everitt & Jones will let us down in finals because they aren't great H&A players, but as yet they haven't played in a final so they haven't failed. As a group or as individuals they might actually lift in a final and surprise the MC with their efforts.

It's known that Hahn & Eagleton will let us down in finals against good teams. Sure they have played well against teams ranked 5-8, they have played a number of finals against top 4 teams have have sucked ass almost each and every time ( Hahn did have a good 10min in last years PF). They are known as failures when push comes to shove in big finals.

Take a risk on a new breed... It isn't like they could perform any worse than our serial finals failures.

Conservative I guess but alot at stake.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

The MC's reasoning is all on predictions.

It's predicted that Moles, Everitt & Jones will let us down in finals because they aren't great H&A players, but as yet they haven't played in a final so they haven't failed. As a group or as individuals they might actually lift in a final and surprise the MC with their efforts.

It's known that Hahn & Eagleton will let us down in finals against good teams. Sure they have played well against teams ranked 5-8, they have played a number of finals against top 4 teams have have sucked ass almost each and every time ( Hahn did have a good 10min in last years PF). They are known as failures when push comes to shove in big finals.

Take a risk on a new breed... It isn't like they could perform any worse than our serial finals failures.

I do not see a lot of value in playing both Hahn and Eagleton this week, when we would be better off looking to the future. That is why I would like to see Jones come back into the side.
I would use Everitt as a back up ruckman to Hudson as Minson was hopeless against the Pies.
Hopefully Easton Wood will return to allow Murphy to go forward where we simply lack class.
I am still to be convinced about Moles but on current form, he should be played at the expense of Higgins. We could do worse than try Hooper as a crumbing forward at the expense of Callen, allowing Harbrow to return to his defensive role where he plays his best football.

[Mantis]

Taken from the Herald Sun website:

'And in another coaching move, Western Bulldogs assistant Leon Cameron appears to be heading to Waverley Park to work under Hawthorn coach Alastair Clarkson next year. Cameron has ruled out interest in the vacant senior Essendon position.'

[Doc26]

Taken from the Herald Sun website:

'And in another coaching move, Western Bulldogs assistant Leon Cameron appears to be heading to Waverley Park to work under Hawthorn coach Alastair Clarkson next year. Cameron has ruled out interest in the vacant senior Essendon position.'

Missed that article.

Being our midfield coach I'm left unsure how much of the blame should be on Leon for the inadequacies of our midfield this season particularly in defensive accountability and efficiency. One would think he needs to shoulder some of the blame although without knowing the inner workings of this MC I'm not sure how empowered he has been. What has been Leon's influence in for example Boyd and Cross's game day approach this season ?

Would love to hear your thoughts seeing as you have a level of insight into the machinations.

[Curly5]

I agree with your assessment against Collingwood.

I was answering the question why these players were played during the year and I answered.

In hindsight, maybe we should have played more kids in the first half of the year and given them more game time and experience.

I have always said, we should never ever have given Johnno, Aker and Eagle another year and now it looks like Hahn as well. However, with Hahn, on last years performance deserved another year but now he looks finished.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it? At the end of last season we were a kick away from a GF, everyone, and I mean everyone, was playing well. Johnno 4th in the B&F, Aker 2nd (?) in the goals, and Eagle - well, the sympathy/fall-back role. Who knew that Johnno would get injured in the preseason, or that Baz (the power forward everyone said we needed) would effectively end Hahn's career, or that Aker would turn out to be the worm in the apple? Can't complain about any of the above.

I'd have stuck with Moles, but you can't depend on Everitt, and Jones is plumb tuckered out. Makes you wonder how we got to 4th this year, with all the duds we seem to have in our team. :rolleyes:

[BulldogBelle]

See Aker's article in the Herald-Sun today.
"Most coaches have their favourites. Rocket loves Brad Johnson ..."
"He also jumped off Josh hill .., Brodie Moles, Andrejes Everitt and Brennan Stack ... " ;'If he jumped off you it was a long way back'

Other favourites of his were Eagleton, Gia and Murphy. so he never really dropped any of them, maybe Eagles for a short time, but tok far too long.

Eade is too slow, a slow learner.

The Match Committe are useless and stupid and the supporters are a lot smarter and know the game better. Seems as though the MC are a bunch or traitors and are trying to sabotage our side.

Eade has the habbit of doing things a year later than the supporters in the stands have suggested:
eg Not Dropping out-of-form 'favourites', notably Eagleton but what about Gia and Johnno?
eg Not Promoting Willi players , say, Wood and Jones, but what about Hooper and Rose?
eg Playing proven duds when they should have been delisted. For example Stack and Addison.
eg Playing players in positions where they can't play, notably Hahn in the back line.
eg Giving aged players another year when they should have been retired, Aker. Eagles and Johnno.
eg Not persisting with potential young guns eg Everitt and Jones and bringing back injured old hacks eg Johnno.
eg Not using the talent in the best way. eg don't kick it to Hall least we become too Hall conscious, how stupid is that.
eg Has no plans on kick-ins from a point. The team is useless. No strategies at all. 22 kick-ins against Collingwood last week with no purpose behind any of them.
Also read other short-comings of Eade in the posts above.

The players would feel Eade's rank attitude of favourites and out of favourites and their enthusiasm would suffer.

Rocket is too stupid to be a coach. Brad Johson says that Eade says that he should go around again next year. How stupid is that. Also Eade should have at least led Johnno to announce his retirement much earlier in the year.

You want a coach to be proactive, Eade has thought up and used no new plays. He is slow, slow, slow.

Get rid of Eade and the coaching staff. maybe keep the fitness coach.

[G-Mo77]

I have always said, we should never ever have given Johnno, Aker and Eagle another year and now it looks like Hahn as well. However, with Hahn, on last years performance deserved another year but now he looks finished.

But you could make that argument for the other 3 as well. I was happy for them to all go on next year, their form from last year warranted it.

[bornadog]

But you could make that argument for the other 3 as well. I was happy for them to all go on next year, their form from last year warranted it.

The only thing was age was against the other three.

[Mofra]

The only thing was age was against the other three.
Johnno finished 4th in our B&F. People weren't asking should he go on, but how long for. He was 3rd in the comp for assists last year too IIRC.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Johnno finished 4th in our B&F. People weren't asking should he go on, but how long for. He was 3rd in the comp for assists last year too IIRC.

Yep.

Johnno along with the others deserved another contract.

The only questionable one was Eagleton.

[Mantis]

The only questionable one was Eagleton.

Up until just a few weeks ago I thought Eagleton had been handled well this year, he had played in games he should have, but had been demoted when his form had been poor and even then some of these calls were marginal, but I thought the MC had got them right.

After he played terribly against Geelong in rd 20 it should have been lights out, but unfortunately he was given a reprieve and his sub-standard performance on Saturday night was exactly what I and others expected of him.

[mighty_west]

Johnno finished 4th in our B&F. People weren't asking should he go on, but how long for. He was 3rd in the comp for assists last year too IIRC.

This is what annoys the living crap out of me with outsiders, Johhno was great last year, off course he was going to play on, and Aker continually banging on about "he was finished mid last year, all the guys knew it" was just total & utter BS, and given his amazing run with injuries, NO ONE could have predicted the season he has had, it just shows how reactive alot of opinions can be.

[mighty_west]

Up until just a few weeks ago I thought Eagleton had been handled well this year, he had played in games he should have, but had been demoted when his form had been poor and even then some of these calls were marginal, but I thought the MC had got them right.

After he played terribly against Geelong in rd 20 it should have been lights out, but unfortunately he was given a reprieve and his sub-standard performance on Saturday night was exactly what I and others expected of him.

Whilst i agree he hasn't been a great finals performer, we probably had no choice but to play Eagle, at least he was fit, and we did lose alot of run.

[GVGjr]

Rocket is too stupid to be a coach. Brad Johson says that Eade says that he should go around again next year. How stupid is that. Also Eade should have at least led Johnno to announce his retirement much earlier in the year.

You want a coach to be proactive, Eade has thought up and used no new plays. He is slow, slow, slow.

Get rid of Eade and the coaching staff. maybe keep the fitness coach.

You can't say that Eade is stupid. By all means challenge if his win loss record is good enough or if he has developed the list sufficiently but to say what you have is just based on emotion rather than facts.

[comrade]

The Australian is reporting that Leon Cameron is on the move:


And in another coaching move, Western Bulldogs assistant Leon Cameron appears to be heading to Waverley Park to work under Hawthorn coach Alastair Clarkson next year. Cameron has ruled out interest in the vacant senior Essendon position.

I think that would be a positive move for all involved.

[G-Mo77]

The Australian is reporting that Leon Cameron is on the move:



I think that's a positive move for all involved.

I think so too, he's been at the club for a while now and it wouldn't hurt to get some new blood in there.

[bornadog]

Yep.

Johnno along with the others deserved another contract.

The only questionable one was Eagleton.

and Aker.

When will clubs and players learn, once you reach a certain age, ie around 33, very few players can go on successfully the next year.

[AndrewP6]

You can't say that Eade is stupid. By all means challenge if his win loss record is good enough or if he has developed the list sufficiently but to say what you have is just based on emotion rather than facts.

Read a little snippet in today's Hun which said Rocket now has the best coaching record in Dog's history, overtaking Wallet.

[LostDoggy]

Read a little snippet in today's Hun which said Rocket now has the best coaching record in Dog's history, overtaking Wallet.

Yep read that hadnt even gave it a thought up untill then, at least Wallet is gone from our records :D

[AndrewP6]

Taken from the Herald Sun website:

'And in another coaching move, Western Bulldogs assistant Leon Cameron appears to be heading to Waverley Park to work under Hawthorn coach Alastair Clarkson next year. Cameron has ruled out interest in the vacant senior Essendon position.'

Apparently not true, according to Leon himself (from AFL.com)

Cameron said forward Andrew Hooper would be more than capable of handling the pressure of playing his first game in a final.

He also doused speculation he was headed to Waverley to work as an assistant coach to Alastair Clarkson.

"It's just another innuendo story that's floating around," he said.

"People just make up stories to try and pull things apart."