Parallels with St.Kilda class of 2008

[LostDoggy]

While we're all down at the moment, I do see some parallels with another team that has been thereabouts for a while now.

The Saints have also had a pretty rough history, and I can only imagine that coming close in last year's GF and losing, having only won one flag half a century ago, must feel pretty shit. Which reminds me that despite all this talk of the Collingwoods and St.Kildas being so good, neither of them have actually won anything recently.. at the end of the season, one or both of them will still be in the same boat as the Dogs in falling short of the ultimate prize.

In any case, at the end of 2008, the Saints fell to a rampaging Hawthorn in a preliminary final in what was largely seen as the end of their 'window'. Their 2008 had largely been a disappointment for Saints fans after quite a bit of expectation, and they 'fell' into 4th place on the last day of the H&A season on percentage with a massive win against the Bombers. It was also the season that Lyon dropped Dal Santo, and they had struggled with injury and form all year. They were the forgotten preliminary finalists, and no one was surprised by Hawthorn's win.

Since that loss, they have reemerged to be one of the powerhouses of the competition, the biggest factors being a new/completed gameplan, a healthy list and careful rejuvenation (more on this later).

The end of 2008 also saw the retirement of one of their most durable and greatest ever players, Robert Harvey.

We are in a similar position -- Johnno has just called it a day, and we have a core of very, very talented kids, allied to a bunch of mature bodies (I won't call them stars). It has also been the first year that guys like Eagleton and Hahn have been dropped at all to make way for some development (albeit not in the first final). We are probably a Nick Riewoldt away from being a genuine premiership contender, but those players don't come around everyday.

I do think that some of the talk about getting rid of Rocket is premature and a little bit knee-jerk -- I'm disturbed to find myself agreeing more and more with Eddie Everywhere these days, but he said on the Malthouse/Buckley deal that 'football gets rid of good people too quickly', and I tend to agree. Rocket has been a huge part of the rejuvenation of this football club, and while we need to continue refining some off-field structures and systems, and probably surround him with a bit more support in key areas, I believe that he should be a big part of crafting his succession plan.

There WERE some key moves in the 2009 pre-season that Lyon put in place to help propel the Saints back into contention. The first and most obvious move was of course the finalising of a gameplan that caught the competition on the hop. It was a step change from Hawthorn's zonal defense, adding a 'pressing' element which required a serious fitness base and buy-in from the whole playing group. Another change was an overhaul of the medical/physio department, with the multiple soft-tissue injuries and lack of continuity in the playing group highlighted in the off-season review as a major reason for the Saints' previous underachievement (no surprise there). In 2009, Lyon didn't have to play a single first-gamer, such was the turnaround from the previously physically fragile playing group. A third, and probably slightly underrated, move, was Lyon's trades -- Ray, Dawson, King etc. all came in and played/still play important roles in the structure of the team.

I believe that all of the three moves I've highlighted hold clues to our rejuvenation next year -- Rocket has a reputation as one of the most innovative thinkers in football, its time to cash in the chips and develop the next tactical innovation in AFL (I have some suggestions, but that's a matter for another time). We have suffered our fair share of soft -tissue injuries this year, especially with our developing/younger players, any reduction of that will have a significant bearing on our fortunes next year. Finally, some savvy trading/recruiting for the obvious deficiencies on our list (keeping in mind the needs of our revolutionary gameplan) will be necessary, especially in light of the draft rape by GC17.

We are not out of it this year yet, and will hopefully make at least another Prelim, so we are certainly not the worst team going around by any stretch of the imagination, despite our disappointment (again, I think similar to St. Kilda 2008). I won't be surprised if we are thereabouts again next year.

Apologies for the long-ish OP, feel free to discuss.

[AndrewP6]

Great post Lantern...I'm just trying to digest it all! Impressed with the use of the term "draft rape" ;)

[LostDoggy]

Didnt the saints drop a couple of senior regulars that year? I think it has been an opportunity lost for us on this account, last year and this year. Mitch and Eagle could have been put under real pressure to perform and younger guys given red hot go's at it, for better or worse.

[LostDoggy]

I dont think St Kilda had issues with key position players like we have though.

[azabob]

I dont think St Kilda had issues with key position players like we have though.

What KP issues do we have for 2011?

[stefoid]

Our key position problems are pretty much solved, with Grant, Roughead, Williams, Everitt and Jones all set for playing every game next year, complimenting Lake, Hudson and Hall.

That is one nice collection of tall talent. Staggering really.

The irony is that we now lack pace and guys that can use the ball under pressure. A fit Higgins will make some difference, and I have no problem at all with playing Wally Jnr as soon as he is able. He may not be quick, but apparently is a good ball user and thats what we desperately need around the packs.

Id love to see 'Mr Magic' Thorne get a good chance to show what he has got, and Hooper a chance at a forward pocket.

Obviously Johno is retiring, and I cant see Hahn and Eagleton getting a game next year - just countner productive.

I also feel that Hargrave has used up his gold pass and Im happy to see him compete on pure form with the likes of Everitt and Wood for a spot in defence. He just doesnt run enough and his disposal is less than it should be for mine.

[Mantis]

Our key position problems are pretty much solved, with Grant, Roughead, Williams, Everitt and Jones all set for playing every game next year, complimenting Lake, Hudson and Hall.

That is one nice collection of tall talent. Staggering really.

The irony is that we now lack pace and guys that can use the ball under pressure. A fit Higgins will make some difference, and I have no problem at all with playing Wally Jnr as soon as he is able. He may not be quick, but apparently is a good ball user and thats what we desperately need around the packs.

Id love to see 'Mr Magic' Thorne get a good chance to show what he has got, and Hooper a chance at a forward pocket.

Obviously Johno is retiring, and I cant see Hahn and Eagleton getting a game next year - just countner productive.

I also feel that Hargrave has used up his gold pass and Im happy to see him compete on pure form with the likes of Everitt and Wood for a spot in defence. He just doesnt run enough and his disposal is less than it should be for mine.

He won't be around next year.

[chef]

He won't be around next year.

May I ask why Mantis?

[Sockeye Salmon]

Id love to see 'Mr Magic' Thorne get a good chance to show what he has got,

Thorne may already be home in the NT

[Desipura]

Thorne may already be home in the NT
saw him on tv at the Johnno press conference.

[LostDoggy]

Thorne may already be home in the NT
I saw him in tghe pound at last weeks training.

[Sockeye Salmon]

saw him on tv at the Johnno press conference.

Then he hasn't

[Mantis]

May I ask why Mantis?

I keep hearing that his attitude is pretty poor and that he probably isn't dedicated enough to warrant keeping him on.

[chef]

I keep hearing that his attitude is pretty poor and that he probably isn't dedicated enough to warrant keeping him on.

That's sad, as he could have been a handy player for us next season.

[Mofra]

It's an interesting one Lantern - premiership windows tend to open just as the football world are saying it is closed. St Kilda's window was supposedly shut whan Hamill retired, then later Harvey.
Their efforts in rejuvinating their list did come on the back of some absolute steals - Gardiner & King are obvious ones, Ray is more than handy (despite being one of the designated scapegoats at the Bulldogs). They also had no hesitation in letting go Ball which was a big move.

We have been playing kids this year with pace - Jones, Grant and Wood will be best 22 players next year, Hooper will get a chance too, Murphy going to the backline improves the run from defence. We lose Harbrow which will take some run to recover but who knows what trade period will bring? Wallis may be good enough to play a few games next year by all accounts and is touted as a super-smart kid who will help us.
Ward & Higgins injury free will help our disposal no-end. I don't think our window is anywhere near closed whilst Lake & Morris are in the defensive 6.

[Desipura]

It's an interesting one Lantern - premiership windows tend to open just as the football world are saying it is closed. St Kilda's window was supposedly shut whan Hamill retired, then later Harvey.
Their efforts in rejuvinating their list did come on the back of some absolute steals - Gardiner & King are obvious ones, Ray is more than handy (despite being one of the designated scapegoats at the Bulldogs). They also had no hesitation in letting go Ball which was a big move.

We have been playing kids this year with pace - Jones, Grant and Wood will be best 22 players next year, Hooper will get a chance too, Murphy going to the backline improves the run from defence. We lose Harbrow which will take some run to recover but who knows what trade period will bring? Wallis may be good enough to play a few games next year by all accounts and is touted as a super-smart kid who will help us.
Ward & Higgins injury free will help our disposal no-end. I don't think our window is anywhere near closed whilst Lake & Morris are in the defensive 6.
Ward disposal has been shocking this year. I hope it is due to his injury.

[Sedat]

I don't think our window is anywhere near closed whilst Lake & Morris are in the defensive 6.
Been saying the same thing ever since we signed up Lake for another 4 years. We have a 4 year window from 2010 to 2013 minimum. All the oldies have contributed diddly in 2010 in any event so we will not be losing a single thing out on the park by the time the 2011 season starts.

The most important thing we need to get right is our midfield structures. We are already loaded with inside mids who do not cover the ground (add Libba and Wallis to that list next year) so a couple of jets would be high on the shopping list in the up-coming ND. I've been vocal in recent weeks about the need for Boyd and Cross to understand their future roles to provide much greater benefit to the team, so that we can enhance our strengths and improve our current weaknesses. Both these guys will need to start sacrificing their natural ball-winning instincts in order to clamp down on key opposition mids. Opposition coaches hate seeing Coons and Griff streaming down with the ball in their hands, so we need to ensure the other mids block the space and protect these guys as our key offensive ball carrying weapons.

Aside from the midfield tweaking, quick small defensive forwards would be next on the list. One of Howard or Tutt (hopefully both) will start to come through as our rebounding defenders when Murphy, Gilbee and Hargrave retire, and Tommy Gun has been very good this year and will only get better in the key negating defensive tall post. We have quite a bit of quality to work with and I can see us (normal run with injuries permitting) holding our position in the next 3 years pretty comfortably.

[mighty_west]

I keep hearing that his attitude is pretty poor and that he probably isn't dedicated enough to warrant keeping him on.

I keep hearing the same thing unfortunately, the mature aged recruit thing hasn't seemed to have worked out from last years draft, with the exception of Moles who is a handy depth player.

[Mofra]

Aside from the midfield tweaking, quick small defensive forwards would be next on the list. One of Howard or Tutt (hopefully both) will start to come through as our rebounding defenders when Murphy, Gilbee and Hargrave retire, and Tommy Gun has been very good this year and will only get better in the key negating defensive tall post. We have quite a bit of quality to work with and I can see us (normal run with injuries permitting) holding our position in the next 3 years pretty comfortably.
Agree with much of your post, and do think Howard will make it (jury still out on Tutt). Hooper should provide us with the quick, smart forward we need for next year. As far as pace goes, it's speed of ball movement which is the telling factor, which makes finding space to kick a priority.
Geelong aren't overly quick but the move the ball very quickly by hand until someone with space to kick finds the ball. Collingwood block the opponent (even on the mark) to find space to kick. St Kilda simply try to make enough space for Riewoldt to run into, and allow their 2nd tier forwards to run onto the ball in the space he leaves behind - both work with quick ball movement.

Our drafting record with pacy outside mid-types wasn't great during the Clayton years (McMahon, Ray, Power) IMO.

[mighty_west]

The Saints have done pretty well with bringing in some players from other clubs, Sydney make an art form out of it, and with the couple of years of compromised drafting and 2 gift wrapped father sons, could we perhaps look at maybe looking at a few 21-23 year olds to grow with the group we have developing, to complement the Grants, Wards, Higgins, Woods etc etc?

Harbrow is as good as gone, Everitt & Hill seem out of favour and possibly traded off, could we perhaps maybe look at a young tall defender, maybe a mid or 2, there seem to be some decent talent in SA wanting home [Gray, Knights etc], maybe also in WA [what's Mitch Brown up to?].

The other option off course is the more long term and hoping we can snag some picks in the 20's / 30's for those players, and hope we can pick up some good kids after thew Gold Coast pick the eyes out of it, and make it some kind of bumper draft for us with 3 picks in the top 30 as well as Mitch & Tom who most likely will be both top 30's going by how high they are rated.

[Mofra]

The other option off course is the more long term and hoping we can snag some picks in the 20's / 30's for those players, and hope we can pick up some good kids after thew Gold Coast pick the eyes out of it, and make it some kind of bumper draft for us with 3 picks in the top 30 as well as Mitch & Tom who most likely will be both top 30's going by how high they are rated.
We have done fairly well out of 2nd round draft picks:

2010 Tom Liberatore :D
2009 Jason Tutt (far too early to tell)
2008 Jordan Roughead, Liam Jones (Absolutely rapt with these two)
2007 Callan Ward
2006 (No pick - traded for McDougal and Aker with downgrades)
2005 Dylan Addison

Clayton's legacy with 2nd round picks isn't far off his first rounders.

[mighty_west]

We have done fairly well out of 2nd round draft picks:

2010 Tom Liberatore :D
2009 Jason Tutt (far too early to tell)
2008 Jordan Roughead, Liam Jones (Absolutely rapt with these two)
2007 Callan Ward
2006 (No pick - traded for McDougal and Aker with downgrades)
2005 Dylan Addison

Clayton's legacy with 2nd round picks isn't far off his first rounders.

I don't mind some of the kids Dalrymple brought in, the two in the main draft and especially Hooper in the rookie, perhaps we should just ask him to concentrate on the kids & not worry about mature depth, i think his 'smokie' Howard is a ripper [smokie because no one had heard of this kid].

We may very well have to take one step back to move forward [so to speak], and apart from maybe Boumann, we don't really have anyone to develop into a key defensive position, the rest of our future spine looks very good, i wonder if we could maybe look at trading one of our 29 year olds, one perhaps still with currency?

[Sedat]

We have done fairly well out of 2nd round draft picks:

2010 Tom Liberatore :D
2009 Jason Tutt (far too early to tell)
2008 Jordan Roughead, Liam Jones (Absolutely rapt with these two)
2007 Callan Ward
2006 (No pick - traded for McDougal and Aker with downgrades)
2005 Dylan Addison
Glad you stopped your list before you got to Jesse Wells :D

We also got Minno in 2002, Birss in 2001 from memory and we also traded out of the 2nd round in 2000 to get Bandy. I think we also traded out of the 2nd round in 1999 but picked up plenty of gold from the 3rd round onwards.

[Mofra]

Glad you stopped your list before you got to Jesse Wells :D

We also got Minno in 2002, Birss in 2001 from memory and we also traded out of the 2nd round in 2000 to get Bandy. I think we also traded out of the 2nd round in 1999 but picked up plenty of gold from the 3rd round onwards.
Yeah, wasn't exactly an accident stopping at 2005 :o

I was trying to highlight in recent years that 2nd round draft picks are more often than not quality players, so if we managed to get a 2nd rounder for someone who is a fringe type, I'd generally take that in a heartbeat.

The Farren Ray trade is an example - sure he'd be in our best 22, but we effectively get Liam Jones for his pick who will be a 10 year CHF which we haven't had for a long time. St Kilda get a run & carry type for a 2nd round pick. Win/win.

[mighty_west]

We have done fairly well out of 2nd round draft picks:

2010 Tom Liberatore :D
2009 Jason Tutt (far too early to tell)
2008 Jordan Roughead, Liam Jones (Absolutely rapt with these two)
2007 Callan Ward
2006 (No pick - traded for McDougal and Aker with downgrades)
2005 Dylan Addison

Clayton's legacy with 2nd round picks isn't far off his first rounders.

In hindsight, had we not gone for Aker, Clayton was all over Nathan Krakour, who has gone to GC, we could have kept Harbrow or at least Nathan.....

[Mofra]

We may very well have to take one step back to move forward [so to speak], and apart from maybe Boumann, we don't really have anyone to develop into a key defensive position, the rest of our future spine looks very good, i wonder if we could maybe look at trading one of our 29 year olds, one perhaps still with currency?
I'm not sure our 29 year olds have much currency unfortunately (the only ones that do AFL-wide are pure guns).

Going into 2010, arguably our 3 best defenders were Lake (pick 71) Morris (rookie) and Harbrow (rookie), with Shaggy & Gilbee not exactly high draft picks either.
Defence is one area I think punting on late rounders/rookies in the draft could pay dividends *cough Faulks cough*

Scarlett was F/S, but how many high-draft pick defenders are there, especially talls? Williams & Taylor? Not too many others I suspect.

[Sedat]

The Farren Ray trade is an example - sure he'd be in our best 22, but we effectively get Liam Jones for his pick who will be a 10 year CHF which we haven't had for a long time. St Kilda get a run & carry type for a 2nd round pick. Win/win.
Except in finals for the Saints ;)

I agree with the logic. We have been quick to get rid of our mid picks in some previous drafts, not utilising the ability of Clayton to unearth some gold beyond the 1st round. The likes of Hill and Everitt will definitely command some currency in the open market this trade week, and whilst you are reluctant to trade away any under 24's, you also don't want to hold onto them if their perceived flaws are considered unfixable, and they then become untradeable a year later (Thorp being a good example).

[Mantis]

St.Kilda have used the trade period very well over the past few years to top up on player types they feel they require (speedy types - Lovett & Peake, rucks - King & Gardiner, utilities - Dempster & Ray), they have also discarded players they felt were surplus.

We have also used the trading period wisely over the past 2 to 4 years so it will be interesting to see how we go about getting a few required types onto our list and perhaps trade-off those which we feel we have a surplus of.

[Sedat]

Schneider as well, who has become an intergral part of the forward set-up at St Kilda. The Saints got both Schneider and Dempster for the one pick a few years ago (a 2nd rounder from memory).

[Mantis]

The Farren Ray trade is an example - sure he'd be in our best 22, but we effectively get Liam Jones for his pick who will be a 10 year CHF which we haven't had for a long time. St Kilda get a run & carry type for a 2nd round pick. Win/win.

St.Kilda also received pick 47 as part of this trade (a pick that we were never going to use) which gave St.Kilda picks 47 & 48 which they used to pick up Heyne & Stanley who both look pretty handy prospects.

[mighty_west]

St.Kilda also received pick 47 as part of this trade (a pick that we were never going to use) which gave St.Kilda picks 47 & 48 which they used to pick up Heyne & Stanley who both look pretty handy prospects.

Isn't Stanley tipped to goto GC? Either way i like the look of him.

[mighty_west]

St.Kilda have used the trade period very well over the past few years to top up on player types they feel they require (speedy types - Lovett & Peake, rucks - King & Gardiner, utilities - Dempster & Ray), they have also discarded players they felt were surplus.

We have also used the trading period wisely over the past 2 to 4 years so it will be interesting to see how we go about getting a few required types onto our list and perhaps trade-off those which we feel we have a surplus of.

Rocket has been very smart with trades, even with the likes of McDougall, we paid a coke & fries for him, so it didn't hurt us when he didn't make it, i think alot of people still look back to the Rhode / Newport days, who were a total train wreck when it came to trading, high picks for non proven players.

He also isn't a stubborn arse with players wanting another opportunity, Birss, Power, Skipper etc.....McMahon :D, he is very much a realist when it comes to trading.

[FrediKanoute]

Agree with much of your post, and do think Howard will make it (jury still out on Tutt). Hooper should provide us with the quick, smart forward we need for next year. As far as pace goes, it's speed of ball movement which is the telling factor, which makes finding space to kick a priority.
Geelong aren't overly quick but the move the ball very quickly by hand until someone with space to kick finds the ball. Collingwood block the opponent (even on the mark) to find space to kick. St Kilda simply try to make enough space for Riewoldt to run into, and allow their 2nd tier forwards to run onto the ball in the space he leaves behind - both work with quick ball movement.

Our drafting record with pacy outside mid-types wasn't great during the Clayton years (McMahon, Ray, Power) IMO.

We could probably get this guy back for a song if we were looking for an outside winger/mid in the Eaglton mould.....I personally think it woud be good business.

[Desipura]

We could probably get this guy back for a song if we were looking for an outside winger/mid in the Eaglton mould.....I personally think it woud be good business.
I dont, I think we need a mixture of quick strong onballers who can kick and a physical back flanker ie Beau Waters type and of course a goal sneak.

[Mofra]

We could probably get this guy back for a song if we were looking for an outside winger/mid in the Eaglton mould.....I personally think it woud be good business.
If we are purely trying to add pace to the list, then he could be worth considering. Not sure on the relationship side of things the match would work, but that's an observation as an outsider.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Rocket has been very smart with trades, even with the likes of McDougall, we paid a coke & fries for him, so it didn't hurt us when he didn't make it, i think alot of people still look back to the Rhode / Newport days, who were a total train wreck when it came to trading, high picks for non proven players.


The 2003 draft has turned out to be the worst in history so we didn't really end up any worse off than everyone else. Cooney is just about the only out-and-out gun from that draft. David Mundy (gone by our first traded pick), Sam Fisher, Michael Rischitelli and Ben Hudson about the only players in the whole draft worth worrying about; and all were still available when we took Izaac Thompson..

[stefoid]

If we are purely trying to add pace to the list, then he could be worth considering. Not sure on the relationship side of things the match would work, but that's an observation as an outsider.

If we were looking for a midfielder like eagleton... yep, agree totally - if we were looking for a pacy outside player with terrible contested skills and suspect disposal under pressure then macmahon would be a perfect choice...