2011 - What we need to win a Premiership

[becmatty]

Well, sadly, another season ends on Prelimiary Final week.

Injuries, illness, tired veterans, controvesy and inconsistent form seemed to conspire against us all at once at the pointy end of the year. Despite this, we finished just 4 goals away from our best result in 50 years, losing the prelim with more scoring shots, and if not for a rampant third quarter from the Saints and a little more luck, who knows what might have been...

There are endless ifs and buts however. So, now it is time to take stock and look at the job ahead of us for 2011.

With Johnno, Eagleton, Akermanis and seemingly Hahn gone after great careers, it gives the club an opportunity to inject youth and a new look to our team. Although we are losing some favorite sons, we must now recognise that we can now reload with fresh, fast legs and pose a huge threat going forward. We have a list of young stars who are ready to explode, and who I believe and expect will take an enormous step next season.

Expect Grant, Hooper, Ward, Picken, Wood, Roughead, Addison, Reid and Jones to be the new generation to compliment our established guns with the added likely bonuses of Liberatore and Wallis Jr to debut in 2011.

And expect a fit and firing Cooney and Higgins to make a huge difference.

That being said, we need Josh Hill to stand up and play to the electrifying potential that he is capable of. When he is firing, our forward line looks like it has that extra dimension. He is all class and I hope adds consistency and a hard edge to his game. If this happens, look out. I will back him to do this.

And what of Everitt? Is he also ready for a breakout season? Such a talent and I would love to see him charging off a wing.

Below is my 2011 team. It looks bloody good to me and I hope we compliment this by drafting a speedy, slick, polished midfielder. I look forward to hearing opinions as to what extra ingredients we need to take the next step and break the drought next season!...

B: Morris Lake Harbrow (will he remain a dog?)
HB Hargrave, Williams Gilbee
C: Cross, Boyd, Giansiracusa
HF: Higgins, Grant, Murphy
F: Hill, Hall, Hooper
Foll: Hudson, Griffen, Cooney
Int: Ward, Picken, Wood, Roughead
Next in line: Everitt, Jones, Addison, Reid, Wallis, Liberatore, Stack, Cordy

[Mofra]

1. A greater presence on the HF line to keep oppositon backmen accountable (Maxwell cut us up in week 1 of the finals)
2. A fast, outside mid to run the lines
3. A crumber

If Jones and Grant improve, step 1 is achieved.
Step 2? We will need to trade, given we lose Harbrow (Wood would be looking to play 22 games next year I'd expect).
Step 3? Draft or Hooper.

A fit Cooney is vital to us.

[Dazza]

Somehow need a bit of speed throughout the midfield and up forward.

[Mantis]

Slowest centre line of all time.

The Collingwood model shows you need pace, intensity & creativity... we need to follow.

[LostDoggy]

What about Cordy???

[becmatty]

Yep, I agree you hairy little midget, Cordy could be one to rise up in a similar fashion to Grant this seaon.

I have listed him in the 'next in line for selection' in the initial post, and hope he can develop quickly into the player many believe he will become...

[Go_Dogs]

Slowest centre line of all time.

The Collingwood model shows you need pace, intensity & creativity... we need to follow.

Agree with that.

Libba ticks a few boxes with his creativity in tight which should be a strong asset in the modern game, and the defensive side. Not a speedster though.

Collingwood's drafting has been good, but their development has been outstanding. I wouldn't say they are an overly quick side, but their intensity and smart running makes them appear super quick (still definitely quicker than us, and Geelong and St Kilda...)

[Sedat]

A Jeff Garlett clone in our forward 50 would be nice, as would some pace and line-breaking ability across the midfield. You know when the Saints are making you look one-paced, you are are in desperate need of an injection of pace.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Slowest centre line of all time.

The Collingwood model shows you need pace, intensity & creativity... we need to follow.

This.

I also think we're carrying too many older types who are questionable in finals. IMHO we should not head into season 2011 with Boyd, Cross and Gia in the same side.

We need to make a few changes to our list, weeding out the players who are a) finished or b) not going to take us further.

It doesn't mean we bottom out or anything, but I think it'd be best for the club. Sort of like how St. Kilda disregarded Luke Ball.

[Jasper]

Interested in knowing the following answers, as I reckon knowing them could help us improve...

Why our disposal efficiency appeared to decrease, particularly that of Cooney, Higgins, Boyd and Ward

What are our medical staff doing to ensure players are quickly diagnosed and treated for problems, ie why was Ward playing pre-season if he had groin soreness, why did it take so long to diagnose Higgins condition, especially when another player had already had the same condition that year (MInson)

How much due dilligence was done on Shane Thorne? Why wasn't Podsiadly (and for that matter Hudson) recruited when they played in our feeder teams? In short what steps are being taken to improve our talent identification?

Why haven't Josh Hill and Everitt kicked on, both have displayed qualities that would suggest they could be good AFL standard players, yet neither has progressed?

Why is our list so thin that clearly substandard and unfit players were played in the AFL Qualifying Final against the Pies (Higgins, Johnson, Hahn, Eagleton)?



Would suggest nearly every club will be looking to inject pace and skill into their teams. We lose
Harbrow, with no ready replacement (he's pretty unique really), what will we do?

[becmatty]

Interested in knowing the following answers, as I reckon knowing them could help us improve...

Why our disposal efficiency appeared to decrease, particularly that of Cooney, Higgins, Boyd and Ward?

Higgins and Ward have been restricted by injury and I think this is a direct correlation.

I think Boyd gets a lot of kicks in the clinches and not being the speediest player, rarely has the space to release the ball when he is balanced and poised.

I think Gilbee has been the other player who has dropped with kicking efficiency, but it more seems to do with his selection/option rather than execution.

[BulldogBelle]

We need to make sure we dont make too many changes as so dont we dont have a fit and firing 22 in september. We have a good team. We need to be able to drop a griffen or lake during the season and still win.

If we play our physically best 22 every week they will once again get worn down and shredded by september.

We are too easily romanced by h&a games, thinking that form translates into finals form. Only tje fittest teams survive the modern finals

[AndrewP6]

We are too easily romanced by h&a games, thinking that form translates into finals form.

Ours did this year :(

[BulldogBelle]

Ours did this year :(

Sadly we were doomed to fail:(

Saints and Pies didnt though.

I am so dispirited by the whole thing:(

[AndrewP6]

Sadly we were doomed to fail:(

Saints and Pies didnt though.

I am so dispirited by the whole thing:(

Yep, same.

[Remi Moses]

All the emphasis will be on the older players,but really there has been some sub par seasons from a lot of the list!

[MrMahatma]

In terms of building a premiership team from the ground up - we have Williams, Grant, Jones, Roughead, Cooney, Griffen, Picken, Ward. For mine, that's the foundation.

We've got some decent young talls for the first time, and some gun mids. We have major deficiencies in our list, no doubt, but I don't feel as frustrated as I did when we had all the pace in the world and no talls. I think our problems are reasonably easily fixed through the draft and through trading (IE: A pacey mid won't cost as much as a good KPP on the trade table).

We're a fair way off and I expect 2011 to not win as many games, but in search of the right mix to win the big one.

[The Coon Dog]

I'd initially name those I feel are untradeable, everyone else up for consideration (depending on what's on offer).

Those I wouldn't trade:

Grant, Murphy, Higgins, Ward, Hudson, Griffen, Cooney, Jones, Roughead, Hall, Wood, Lake, Morris & Picken. I'd obviously have Harbrow on that list too if it wasn't for GC17.

There are youngsters such as Howard, Tutt, Prato & Cordy that you just wouldn't consider trading as we really don't know at this stage what they offer.

My worry is our one paced midfielders; Cross, Boyd, Reid, Ward, Libba & Wallis. As Mantis says we need more players with pace & creativity to assist Cooney & Griffen.

[comrade]

Unless their roles change dramatically, Cross and Boyd can't play in the same team together. Same with Hargrave and Gilbee.

[LostDoggy]

I'd initially name those I feel are untradeable, everyone else up for consideration (depending on what's on offer).

Those I wouldn't trade:

Grant, Murphy, Higgins, Ward, Hudson, Griffen, Cooney, Jones, Roughead, Hall, Wood, Lake, Morris & Picken. I'd obviously have Harbrow on that list too if it wasn't for GC17.

There are youngsters such as Howard, Tutt, Prato & Cordy that you just wouldn't consider trading as we really don't know at this stage what they offer.

My worry is our one paced midfielders; Cross, Boyd, Reid, Ward, Libba & Wallis. As Mantis says we need more players with pace & creativity to assist Cooney & Griffen.

I know it's only early stages, but Hooper could possibly be that player. More game time for him in the seniors next season, with some stints through the middle, will add plenty of speed & possibly creativity to the midfield.

I know it could be a long shot, but it's somewhere we could find a bit of pace.

Also, if Josh Hill could have big pre season & work hard on a few areas of his game. We could plonk him on a wing & leave him there, will add dash & creativity out wide once the guys like Ward, Reid, Cross etc... get it out.

[Mantis]

Come rd 1 next year I would hope that the shell of the team looks like this:

B: Morris, Lake, ***
HB: Wood, Williams, Murphy
C: Griffen, Ward, Picken
HF: Higgins, Jones, Grant
F: ***, Hall, ***
R: Hudson, Cross, Cooney

Int: Reid, ***, Roughead, ***

The rest can fight for the other spots.

[Go_Dogs]

What draft picks might we get for Boyd, Mantis?

I seriously think trading one of those premium, on the slow side, mids might be a very good idea - however I wouldn't want it to be the sort of trade that rips a club apart like Brisbane are currently experiencing.

I'd also expect to see Addison stay in that side, and I'd almost throw him into a forward pocket spot. Yes not super quick, but his over head marking and willingness to do anything to lock the ball in is important - he can be the new version of Hahn that fits in the Hall-based forward line.

I'm seriously a fan of your thinking, and believe that we need to make a few of these decisions. I really like the look of that teams ability to get the job done defensively.

One or two more young speedsters, one who can play a crumbing role, and we're looking OK, but we are going to struggle a bit for depth next year unless a few things go right.

[Hotdog60]

Come rd 1 next year I would hope that the shell of the team looks like this:

B: Morris, Lake, ***
HB: Wood, Williams, Murphy
C: Griffen, Ward, Picken
HF: Higgins, Jones, Grant
F: ***, Hall, ***
R: Hudson, Cross, Cooney

Int: Reid, ***, Roughead, ***

The rest can fight for the other spots.

On paper that looks like the right mix, if Moles could find another level he could join the bench, we need some good pace to support Coons and Griffen.

I think for the preservation of Murphy his should stay at half back.

[Mantis]

What draft picks might we get for Boyd, Mantis?

I seriously think trading one of those premium, on the slow side, mids might be a very good idea - however I wouldn't want it to be the sort of trade that rips a club apart like Brisbane are currently experiencing.

I'd also expect to see Addison stay in that side, and I'd almost throw him into a forward pocket spot. Yes not super quick, but his over head marking and willingness to do anything to lock the ball in is important - he can be the new version of Hahn that fits in the Hall-based forward line.

I'm seriously a fan of your thinking, and believe that we need to make a few of these decisions. I really like the look of that teams ability to get the job done defensively.

One or two more young speedsters, one who can play a crumbing role, and we're looking OK, but we are going to struggle a bit for depth next year unless a few things go right.

I am not saying he should be traded, I am saying that he shouldn't be an automatic selection.

He has flaws in his game which have been shown up big time over the past 6 weeks and they need to be rectified.

If he was to be traded I would hope to receive a pick from 8 to 12.

[Go_Dogs]

I am not saying he should be traded, I am saying that he shouldn't be an automatic selection.

He has flaws in his game which have been shown up big time over the past 6 weeks and they need to be rectified.

If he was to be traded I would hope to receive a pick from 8 to 12.

Agree with that to a certain extent - but he would be an automatic selection at quite a few/most of the other clubs and I'm not convinced he won't be at the Dogs next year either (in the MC's eyes).

If the MC think that Ward and Reid and Libba can do the job, then I say it's time to seriously weigh up the option to trade whilst value is high.

[Hotdog60]

I am not saying he should be traded, I am saying that he shouldn't be an automatic selection.

He has flaws in his game which have been shown up big time over the past 6 weeks and they need to be rectified.

If he was to be traded I would hope to receive a pick from 8 to 12.

Boyd is a player that needs to re-invent himself or sit down for a few days and watch his turn overs from the season. You can't knock the guys endeavor as he busts a gut day in day out but at times he has been un-accountable and had poor disposal.

I would keep him, remember how people felt last year when he said "I not here to make friends, I here to win a premiership". He was lined up as our next captain, roll forward to the end of this season opinions have changed.

He needs to find a new role within the team.

[Sedat]

He has flaws in his game which have been shown up big time over the past 6 weeks and they need to be rectified.
He was dreadful again last night, and predictably the media just looked at the stats sheet and put him in our best players. Hayes absolutely tore him another new one last night, to sit alongside the new ones torn by Ablett and Swan in the last 5 weeks. The errant handball early in the 2nd qtr gave gifted St Kilda a goal when they were not looking like it, and his field kicking was again sub-par. The less said about his defensive chasing and efforts when we didn't have the ball, the better.

Cross at least understands the need to clamp down on an opponent from time to time. Boyd has shown a complete disregard for his direct opponent and has done for some time. The top 4 coaches wet themselves laughing whenever we try and go head to head with Boyd and their best mids - guaranteed BOG for Boyd's opponent every time.

He will probably be our next captain :rolleyes:

[The Pie Man]

Boyd is a player that needs to re-invent himself or sit down for a few days and watch his turn overs from the season. You can't knock the guys endeavor as he busts a gut day in day out but at times he has been un-accountable and had poor disposal.

I would keep him, remember how people felt last year when he said "I not here to make friends, I here to win a premiership". He was lined up as our next captain, roll forward to the end of this season opinions have changed.

He needs to find a new role within the team.

If he's (forgive me for using this term) fair dinkum about that in bold, he'll be bitterly disappointed in his contribution in 2010 and he needs to challenge & confront himself about his deficiencies and the sand-bag effect that has on a group striving for the flag he wants. We get killed on turnovers, and he's a machine at providing them.

I hope I'm not seen being disrespectful just because I am angry - I acknowledge he's put his head over it for us and all that, but this is where he's at in my eyes.

[Desipura]

Lets be realistic here, Boyd will never be put up for trade. We all know that so let move on.
We need a player who can carry the ball with pace. The more I think about it, the more I believe we have to make a play for Tambling.
Look at the Geelong model, they had Byrnes, Varcoe and Stokes who can run and carry with pace. Not all players can be inside players.

We need another tall backman, if nothing else at least for insurance. Whether it be a mature aged from the lower leagues or from another club.
Although not too excited by Spangher, there may be nothing else on offer. He at least provides some run out of the backline, more of a Hargrave type. Tarrant is 30yo and would cost too much.

Eade says we are going to be active, lets do it, I am watching with a great deal of interest this years trading period.
With GC coming in, I think there will be more deals done than ever.

I would put Minson up for trade whilst he has value as I do not see any big upside to his game. If the right offer came along I would do it without hesitation. The Crows & Power are short of ruckman.
We could pick up a mature aged ruckman and the difference between him and Wil wont be that significant.
If the MC do not see a future for Hill (which looks that way) trade him. It seems a McKinley/Hill trade is fair for both teams and I would not be surprised if this deal is done.

Everitt to St Kilda or Carlton. St Kilda offered us a 1st round last year, will they do it again?
If Carlton are also keen on him (like last year) demand either an early pick or one of their misquito fleet.
Alwyn Davey or a Leeroy Jetta should be targets if they are available.

We have a talented list that needs some depth in some areas.
I expect the likes of Reid, Roughy, Jones, Wood to play alot more games next year.
Libba, Wallis and Howard may get a sniff as well.

[Pickenitup]

I really believe we should do everything possible to Get Sherman from Brisbane will add speed to our midfield and helpout up forward

[comrade]

Tambling > Sherman

[G-Mo77]

Tambling > Sherman

Who is cheaper?

I'd like to have a crack at Tambling.

[Desipura]

Sherman kicks the odd goal does not get alot of it. I remember him more for his goal celebrations than anything else. He is a strong bodied player who has pace. They are rare types.

[comrade]

Who is cheaper?

I'd like to have a crack at Tambling.

Sherman is supposedly on $400K a season which is way, way over the odds. Voss and his list management team should be shot.

Given a specific role in a new environment, I think Tambling really could shine - and if he doesn't, at least we have a scape goat replacement for Eagleton :D

[Mofra]

Come rd 1 next year I would hope that the shell of the team looks like this:

B: Morris, Lake, ***
HB: Wood, Williams, Murphy
C: Griffen, Ward, Picken
HF: Higgins, Jones, Grant
F: ***, Hall, ***
R: Hudson, Cross, Cooney

Int: Reid, ***, Roughead, ***
Interesting you have Reid in as an automatic, ahead of Gilbee. I'd probably swap them.
Jones, Wood, Roughead & Grant are the kids who should approach the pre-season believing they are best 22 players.
I very much hope to see Hooper next to Hall in round 1 - means he'd have had a solid pre-season and he does add somethign we lack.

[Mofra]

Sherman is supposedly on $400K a season which is way, way over the odds. Voss and his list management team should be shot.

Given a specific role in a new environment, I think Tambling really could shine - and if he doesn't, at least we have a scape goat replacement for Eagleton :D
I'd love to have Sherman in the side - the kid played this year for peanuts to help the team out (back-ended contract) so if we re-write the contract at his current rate ($300k) and gave him 3 years he'd be perfect for us.

I'd be in favour of Tambling as well - he could become the outside pacy wingman we lack.

[DOG GOD]

I feel quite mixed on the Tambling scenario. For one, i dont think he would come that cheap, and although he would add much needed pace to our squad, how is his defensive efforts and skill level? Its alright to have pace and run with the ball, but its no good if you are turning it over constantly with poor disposal.

[comrade]

I feel quite mixed on the Tambling scenario. For one, i dont think he would come that cheap, and although he would add much needed pace to our squad, how is his defensive efforts and skill level? Its alright to have pace and run with the ball, but its no good if you are turning it over constantly with poor disposal.

I don't think his disposal is really an issue, rather his ability to get into games and have an impact.

He reminds me of Farren Ray. With a change in environment and a defined role, a high draft pick who floated and struggled to influence games has become a valuable member of a premiership contender.

Their worth is about the same, IMO. Late second rounder or a decent player (Everitt) and third rounder.

[azabob]

Need to look at that roles Gilbee, Boyd and Hargrave play within the team. Gilbee and Hargrave especially look to move on.

Have been frustrated with our centre square clearance and kick outs this season, hopefully we can work on those.

[BulldogBelle]

The fact is, it isn't the list that is the problem. I point my finger at the MC. They are the ones that need a change. I'm damn sure that if our MC was at Collingwood, Fraser, Lockyer and Medhurst would all still be in.
We need to expand our list of "walk in" players to 30, and get rid of a "best 22" selection attitude. Make sure we peak at finals time by rotating players out in rounds 15 to 20, and stick to our structures when the momentum swings against us during games. With our current list, we will continue to be a contended for the next 2-3 years. I think with the changes I have flagged here, we could be better in 2011. We lose nothing by replacing Johnson, Hahn, Eagleton, Harbrow with Cooney, Higgins, Ried, Jones, Moles, Roughead, Hooper etc.

[becmatty]

Come rd 1 next year I would hope that the shell of the team looks like this:

B: Morris, Lake, ***
HB: Wood, Williams, Murphy
C: Griffen, Ward, Picken
HF: Higgins, Jones, Grant
F: ***, Hall, ***
R: Hudson, Cross, Cooney

Int: Reid, ***, Roughead, ***

The rest can fight for the other spots.

Boyd is the 2009 B&F andwill finish in the top 5 this year. He, Gilbee, Hargrave and Giansiracusa are automatic selections. Ridiculous to think that you would justify leaving them out based on being similar players to the others listed. Great teams adapt and evolve. In order for us to be successful, we need to be flexible with our line-up and develop all our players to become versitile in a range of roles.

[comrade]

Boyd is the 2009 B&F andwill finish in the top 5 this year. He, Gilbee, Hargrave and Giansiracusa are automatic selections. Ridiculous to think that you would justify leaving them out based on being similar players to the others listed. Great teams adapt and evolve. In order for us to be successful, we need to be flexible with our line-up and develop all our players to become versitile in a range of roles.

Mantis left them out because they continually fail to produce results in big games. Hargrave and Gilbee were terrible for the most part this year and should not be automatic inclusions.

Picking players based on reputation has seen us fall short once again. Maybe we should 'adapt and evolve' our selection criteria to include current form?

[MrMahatma]

Boyd is the 2009 B&F andwill finish in the top 5 this year. He, Gilbee, Hargrave and Giansiracusa are automatic selections. Ridiculous to think that you would justify leaving them out based on being similar players to the others listed. Great teams adapt and evolve. In order for us to be successful, we need to be flexible with our line-up and develop all our players to become versitile in a range of roles.
What are the 'range of roles' that Boyd can play?

Let's face it, most guys are good at one thing, and possibly OK at another. You need different guys whose strengths are different, not a bunch of guys who are all good at the same thing and try and make them good at something else.

I really think that this finals series should have ramifications in terms of selections. Largely, our best players were some of our youngest. If the young kids are playing good footy we should be winning more finals because the old guys should be playing good foot too. Problem is they choke in finals.

[boydogs]

Mantis left them out because they continually fail to produce results in big games. Hargrave and Gilbee were terrible for the most part this year and should not be automatic inclusions.

Picking players based on reputation has seen us fall short once again. Maybe we should 'adapt and evolve' our selection criteria to include current form?

There are too many players letting us down to fix things at the MC. They have a lot to offer in other areas, so I think we must take the approach that we need them to focus on contested & defensive work, but still give them games.

Show this in the captain selection, in meetings, at training, in the game plan, in player feedback, in the way we measure and reward players internally.

St Kilda dropped Dal Santo and Milne to send a message that team standards must be met - do that for sure, but if we were playing next week & dropped all the players below par we wouldn't have a side

[LostDoggy]

I think a lot of people here are on the right track, list management is vital, hopefully the MC have greater control and flexibility in team selections by effectively resting players, rewarding players, investing in youth and penalising repeat offenders. Damn hard job but I am sure those guys get paid well.

[chef]

Come rd 1 next year I would hope that the shell of the team looks like this:

B: Morris, Lake, ***
HB: Wood, Williams, Murphy
C: Griffen, Ward, Picken
HF: Higgins, Jones, Grant
F: ***, Hall, ***
R: Hudson, Cross, Cooney

Int: Reid, ***, Roughead, ***

The rest can fight for the other spots.

Sounds and looks good to me.

[LostDoggy]

A solid preseason for the younger players will prove fruitful, imagine Everitt with another few kilos and recruiting Tambling would fill the void of Harbrow gone. We need to be injury free and firing this time next year to get to the GF.

[1eyedog]

Come rd 1 next year I would hope that the shell of the team looks like this:

B: Morris, Lake, ***
HB: Wood, Williams, Murphy
C: Griffen, Ward, Picken
HF: Higgins, Jones, Grant
F: ***, Hall, ***
R: Hudson, Cross, Cooney

Int: Reid, ***, Roughead, ***

The rest can fight for the other spots.

I agree, but does Boyd have trade value and what would we get for him?

[LostDoggy]

We worked really hard for 2 quarters and matched St Kilda. We didn't have a week's rest and we had sore players and key injuries. We were essentially beaten by Rooey and we can't just go and get someone like him.

I think it's our style of play that has to evolve. We've become more defensive but not necessarily effective when under pressure. I mean, what intelligence exists when players get the ball and kick it and hope into a forward line that has only a couple of our players surrounded by a nest of Saints? Not once should we have done that. Yet week after week we do it.

I think we need a bigger bodied, established, mobile CHF.

And one more genuine pacy player in the middle / forward.

Staggering to think that Collingwood have developed nearly half their team in 3 years, a number of whom have been picked up through the Rookie draft. We really have to be ahead of the curve when drafting and developing particular types of players for the future.

[LostDoggy]

My worry is our one paced midfielders; Cross, Boyd, Reid, Ward, Libba & Wallis. As Mantis says we need more players with pace & creativity to assist Cooney & Griffen.




One or two more young speedsters, one who can play a crumbing role, and we're looking OK, but we are going to struggle a bit for depth next year unless a few things go right.

I really think Hooper will big a gap filler for these two problems, especially in the crumbing role.

Both him and Moles should also fit into a rotating midfield role. Not as quick as Coon and Griff but that bridge between low range gears (Boyd, Cross) and high range (Griff, Coon).

[Sedat]

Boyd is the 2009 B&F andwill finish in the top 5 this year.
Last night Boyd went head-to-head against Hayes. By half time Hayes had 18 possessions, just about every meaningful clearance and was single-handedly keeping his team in touch at the main break. At the same time Picken was doing a very effective job blanketing and limiting Goddard's impact on the game. Because Hayes ran riot we were forced to switch Picken onto him after half time - end result was releasing Goddard to have a huge impact on their 3rd qtr domination out of the centre. Irrespective of the dreadful handball error in the 2nd qtr that gifted St Kilda a goal against the run of play, Boyd's opponent was a major factor in St Kilda keeping in the game early and then running riot thereafter. And he gave scant regard to his designated opponent for the entire night. This happened in the QF and it also happened in Round 20 v Geelong. I can handle skill errors. I can handle players coughing it up in the name of taking the game on. I can't handle seeing key players for the opposition given virtual free passage to greatly influence the course of the match.

Boyd's story is a great story of perserverence and overcoming repeated rejection, and he has turned himself into an extremely valuable AFL footballer. But he has flat-out forgotten to apply the sacrificial defensive fundamentals that were a core part of his game, instead opting to take on the role of offensive midfield playmaker, to the great detriment of his overall game and, more importantly, the greater good of the team. If this is a MC directive, it is an extremely poor one IMO, and is being picked off by the better opposition coaches in the AFL. If it is not, I sincerely hope the MC and Boyd's fellow players proactively remind him of what is required from him to benefit the team. Something needs to be addressed and pronto because we cannot have our probable captain-in-waiting consistently conceding BOG's to his direct opponent.

In the words of Dirty Harry, "a man's got to know his limitations".

[Mantis]

Boyd is the 2009 B&F andwill finish in the top 5 this year. He, Gilbee, Hargrave and Giansiracusa are automatic selections. Ridiculous to think that you would justify leaving them out based on being similar players to the others listed. Great teams adapt and evolve. In order for us to be successful, we need to be flexible with our line-up and develop all our players to become versitile in a range of roles.

Under the extreme pressure that playing the top 3 brings these guys have failed time and time again.

If we are to take the next step we need to make some tough calls because these guys aren't getting any younger and are showing no sign of improvement in performance against the teams we need to beat to win a flag.

Being able to push around the leagues dud teams just doesn't cut the mustard anymore.

[1eyedog]

We worked really hard for 2 quarters and matched St Kilda. We didn't have a week's rest and we had sore players and key injuries. We were essentially beaten by Rooey and we can't just go and get someone like him.

I think it's our style of play that has to evolve. We've become more defensive but not necessarily effective when under pressure. I mean, what intelligence exists when players get the ball and kick it and hope into a forward line that has only a couple of our players surrounded by a nest of Saints? Not once should we have done that. Yet week after week we do it.

I think we need a bigger bodied, established, mobile CHF.

And one more genuine pacy player in the middle / forward.

Staggering to think that Collingwood have developed nearly half their team in 3 years, a number of whom have been picked up through the Rookie draft. We really have to be ahead of the curve when drafting and developing particular types of players for the future.

Like hens teeth. Doesn't look like there are many of these available. Better be prepared to give up a whole heap to get one if one becomes available. Need to develop Jones IMO.

[Mantis]

Both him and Moles should also fit into a rotating midfield role. Not as quick as Coon and Griff but that bridge between low range gears (Boyd, Cross) and high range (Griff, Coon).

If Moles was any good he would have taken Eagleton's spot last night. I can't see him being anything other than a 'depth' player.

In recent history there has been no short little plump bloke (no disr-respect Hoops) play a line breaking role in the competition. He has a heap of work to do on his fitness as at present he gives one effort, he needs to be able to give 3 or 4.

[LostDoggy]

Boyd is the 2009 B&F andwill finish in the top 5 this year. He, Gilbee, Hargrave and Giansiracusa are automatic selections. Ridiculous to think that you would justify leaving them out based on being similar players to the others listed. Great teams adapt and evolve. In order for us to be successful, we need to be flexible with our line-up and develop all our players to become versitile in a range of roles.

Hargrave is an example of a versatile, flexible footballer who does nothing very well but everything just okay. "Tried hard" is the report about every week on him. This lark about him playing out of his height and weight division, getting forward to snag a running goal from time to time, is getting a bit old for mine. He lacks poise and often clangers us into danger. I would not mind seeing him packed off to Richmond or Freo while there is still time, and giving his place to a young developing genuine defender.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Moles has played 6 games and is miles ahead of someone like Hooper. Why isn't he the next messiah? Strange.

[lemmon]

Less emphasis must be placed on the senior group and more faith given to the younger guys, look at the Collingwood model, they have been able to replace Medhurst, Lockyer, Frasier, Davis and Presti at times this year when form was substandard. We should be able to make Hahn, Gilbee, Boyd, Hargrave etc accountable and put pressure on their spots by having faith in fellas like Everitt (if he stays), Reid, Ward, Hooper and the rest of the young brigade with senior games. From next year we should abolish the current 'credits' selection system that Eade seems to hold and make all 22 spots open based solely on performance.

[Before I Die]

I am an Eade fan and I don't want him replaced. However, I believe it is our game plan that needs to change, whereas our line-up just requires tinkering. Ray, Blake, Dawson, is that the key to the strongest backline in the league. Or is it the zone they do their work in.

Just a few years ago this board was rejoicing in the departures of Ray and McMahon, two fast running, outside mids. Now the board is calling for Tambling to be recruited. Twelve months all we needed was a power forward. Now, after falling short again, it is a small forward and Richard Tambling. All that is happening here is that posters are identifying areas where we don't have potential All Australians and calling them weaknesses.

I hate Saints Footy and I hate Collingwood, but I am not getting any younger. What we need is to win a Premiership is a Premiership winning game plan and the discipline to carry it out.

[LostDoggy]

If Moles was any good he would have taken Eagleton's spot last night. I can't see him being anything other than a 'depth' player.

Not saying he's the next superstar of the club, I'm saying I see him being a good "bridge" between the slow and the fast. But yes, I probably would have selected him over someone like Eagle. But the MC are the brains trust of the club.

[soupman]

Hargrave is an example of a versatile, flexible footballer who does nothing very well but everything just okay. "Tried hard" is the report about every week on him. This lark about him playing out of his height and weight division, getting forward to snag a running goal from time to time, is getting a bit old for mine. He lacks poise and often clangers us into danger. I would not mind seeing him packed off to Richmond or Freo while there is still time, and giving his place to a young developing genuine defender.

Maybe this year. This year he has struggled and hasn't been great. Last year however he showed his true value to the side, and is clearly capable of being a very good player. His currency in the trade market wouldn't be anywhere near what hebrings to our side, and until we have someone performing well enough in the VFL to suggest they would be worth developing in his spot, he stays. That isn't to say he shouldn't be dropped for poor form however.

[The Pie Man]

Maybe this year. This year he has struggled and hasn't been great. Last year however he showed his true value to the side, and is clearly capable of being a very good player. His currency in the trade market wouldn't be anywhere near what hebrings to our side, and until we have someone performing well enough in the VFL to suggest they would be worth developing in his spot, he stays. That isn't to say he shouldn't be dropped for poor form however.

Agreed - sad that Tiller couldn't keep fit long enough this year, he's the one player who could've put some pressure on Shaggy and challenged. Future up in the air now, didn't have a great VFL prelim. Personally I'd hold onto him, there's a fair cut already happening to the list to suggest he could still land a spot.

[macca]

Would Tarrant be worth looking at CHB ? Frees up Lake to play forward, and allows development time for Jones. We don't want to be over playing Jones too much like the pies did Fraser. I know its easy to talk with hindsight, but last year we should have gone hard to get Luke ball. He has added some grunt to the pies midfield,and much depth, which is clearly what we are lacking in crucial crunch time ganes. Trade Gia, he can't perform on the big stage and we could get value out of him. And lets clear the list cloggers like: stack, and Mulligan. Really, why did we not pick Barlow over keeping Mulligan? Play Moles, make him play a specific role, and ask Boyd to pull out the defensive side of his game, which early on his career. Boyd is not the game breaking midfield that we have been looking for.

[becmatty]

Mantis left them out because they continually fail to produce results in big games. Hargrave and Gilbee were terrible for the most part this year and should not be automatic inclusions.

Picking players based on reputation has seen us fall short once again. Maybe we should 'adapt and evolve' our selection criteria to include current form?

Boyd has been consistent player for years and outstanding in many big games. He narrowly missed All-Australian again this year and is one of the first picked every week. Thankfully you and Mantis aren't on the MC.

Hargrave has played through injury for the best part of the year and requires surgery this week. He is a star, and will continue to be an integral part of our bakline.

Gilbee's formline took a dip this year, but still a star. Will be looking for a bigger year in 2011.

We need to draft players around these existing ones to compliment their attributes, rather than culling them.

[Mantis]

Boyd has been consistent player for years and outstanding in many big games. He narrowly missed All-Australian again this year and is one of the first picked every week. Thankfully you and Mantis aren't on the MC.

Hargrave has played through injury for the best part of the year and requires surgery this week. He is a star, and will continue to be an integral part of our bakline.

Gilbee's formline took a dip this year, but still a star. Will be looking for a bigger year in 2011.

We need to draft players around these existing ones to compliment their attributes, rather than culling them.

Which 'big' games has Boyd been outstanding in?

Both Hargrave & Gilbee have been poor this year, I didn't know about Hargrave's injury until this morning so he gets some slack cut, but both players are getting on and their best doesn't cut it against quality opponents.

[comrade]

Moles has played 6 games and is miles ahead of someone like Hooper. Why isn't he the next messiah? Strange.

Mitch Wallis board.

[LostDoggy]

I am an Eade fan and I don't want him replaced. However, I believe it is our game plan that needs to change, whereas our line-up just requires tinkering. Ray, Blake, Dawson, is that the key to the strongest backline in the league. Or is it the zone they do their work in.

Just a few years ago this board was rejoicing in the departures of Ray and McMahon, two fast running, outside mids. Now the board is calling for Tambling to be recruited. Twelve months all we needed was a power forward. Now, after falling short again, it is a small forward and Richard Tambling. All that is happening here is that posters are identifying areas where we don't have potential All Australians and calling them weaknesses.

I hate Saints Footy and I hate Collingwood, but I am not getting any younger. What we need is to win a Premiership is a Premiership winning game plan and the discipline to carry it out.

The Pies have developed a young team capable of the 'swarm'. It seems to me that for the swarm to be really effective, you need absolutely well drilled players. It also requires a depth of players who can outrun and out endure opponents, who cut the angles and cover the ground to continually deny the ball carrier space.....and who in turn have the ability to move the ball out of a pack quickly yet exceedingly accurately to free up a player.

I don't think we have the players to beat the swarm. If you are slow to react, have poor skills under pressure, and cannot shake a tag or complete a match of running without tiring badly, then you are going to struggle to beat sides like Collingwood (as we have found out 3 times this year).

[1eyedog]

Mitch Wallis board.

Because he's 25 and Hooper is 19. Moles is as good as he is going to get. He may develop further in some areas but we pretty much know what we're getting.

Hooper is an unknown, young, quick and apparently goal savvy. I don't think he is the next messiah but he is a more exciting prospect than Moles is IMO.

[Stefcep]

Higgins and Ward have been restricted by injury and I think this is a direct correlation.

I think Boyd gets a lot of kicks in the clinches and not being the speediest player, rarely has the space to release the ball when he is balanced and poised.

I think Gilbee has been the other player who has dropped with kicking efficiency, but it more seems to do with his selection/option rather than execution.

You can times this for about 15 of the players on the list: we lack players with the football intelligence to execute the right decision quickly. That also depends on the off-the-ball players creating options by moving around the ball carrier.

[Stefcep]

There's "Saints footy", we've had Geelong with their half back's and possession footy, and theres now Collingwood's "swarm". The common theme is a coach and MC devising a game plan that fits his players,and tweaking that by introducing players that fit that game plan and omitting even established names that don't. Rather than trying to emulate other club's game plans and styles, we need a MC and coach who can build a game plan and style that suits OUR players, getting a few additional players that fit that game style and omitting ones that don't. Is Eade the coach to come up with that?

[Mofra]

There's "Saints footy", we've had Geelong with their half back's and possession footy, and theres now Collingwood's "swarm". The common theme is a coach and MC devising a game plan that fits his players,and tweaking that by introducing players that fit that game plan and omitting even established names that don't. Rather than trying to emulate other club's game plans and styles, we need a MC and coach who can build a game plan and style that suits OUR players, getting a few additional players that fit that game style and omitting ones that don't. Is Eade the coach to come up with that?
Given Geelong basically started by copying Eade circa 2005, I dare say Eade is the coach. He is one of the best match-day tacticians and the problems at the club for mine are the guys at no 25-30 on the list not putting enough pressure on for a spot in the seniors.

I'm not sure any team would have won a prelim without their best player this year, including Collingwood.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Given Geelong basically started by copying Eade circa 2005, I dare say Eade is the coach. He is one of the best match-day tacticians and the problems at the club for mine are the gusy at no 25-30 on the list not putting enough pressure on for a spot in the seniors.

I'm not sure any team would have won a prelim without their best player this year, including Collingwood.

Before I Die you're right , the most critical thing we need is the team to be well drilled in an effective game plan, more so than recruiting.
Eade came up with one that Geelong perfected, which is now redundant, being surpassed by Collingwoods 'swarm'. Malthouse has shown that he and his MC can create a dominant game plan, then we must hope Eade can too. The current one didn't work or wasn't well drilled enough.

[stefoid]

Manic midfield version: as many midfielders as we can run in short bursts through the midfield - midfield is slowish, but the theory is that a fresh medium paced player will get around the ground faster than a tired quick player, both offensively AND defensively -- it takes energy to chase manically

Midfield: cooney, higgins, boyd, guido, griff, cross, picken, ward, wallis

key position: Lake, Williams, Hudson, Roughead, Jones, Hall

pure flankers: morris, gilbee, grant, wood, murphy, hargrave, everitt

backup: minson, reid, libba

Guys in bold need to be played into form. may mean we drop games earlier in the year, but we will make up for it later in the year and coming into finals.

Backup guys get their chance through injury or outstanding form.

I dont know if collingwoods midfielders are all that quick collectively, but they are certainly energetic. I think the pies have turned the notion on its head that you have to have a team of endurance runners -- its hard to train for endurance and power at the same time.

Pies model helps guys like Gia who doesnt have a big tank but is a very good ball user, and guys like griffen and coon to utilize their burst capability which must be difficult to do when tired. Also taking regular breaks probably helps concentration for those players who tend to go missing.

Need to arrange subs so that our inside midfielders have good ball users around them at all times.

Would like to see Picken utilize his pace by developing an offensive side to his game and Boyd to minimise his deficiencies in much the same way cross has done by developing more of a defensive game.

[Mofra]

^^^ Fair summary stefoid. I disagree on Everitt (intensity issues) and don't think Libba (and probably not Wallis) will be ready for a major impact next year, but the overall sentiment is something we need to implement.
I'd be hoping Reid graduates from back-up to legitimate midfield option, DFA pretty close to best 22 next year as well after his late-season run.

[bornadog]

Manic midfield version: as many midfielders as we can run in short bursts through the midfield - midfield is slowish, but the theory is that a fresh medium paced player will get around the ground faster than a tired quick player, both offensively AND defensively -- it takes energy to chase manically

Midfield: cooney, higgins, boyd, guido, griff, cross, picken, ward, wallis

key position: Lake, Williams, Hudson, Roughead, Jones, Hall

pure flankers: morris, gilbee, grant, wood, murphy, hargrave, everitt

backup: minson, reid, libba

Guys in bold need to be played into form. may mean we drop games earlier in the year, but we will make up for it later in the year and coming into finals.

Backup guys get their chance through injury or outstanding form.

I dont know if collingwoods midfielders are all that quick collectively, but they are certainly energetic. I think the pies have turned the notion on its head that you have to have a team of endurance runners -- its hard to train for endurance and power at the same time.

Pies model helps guys like Gia who doesnt have a big tank but is a very good ball user, and guys like griffen and coon to utilize their burst capability which must be difficult to do when tired. Also taking regular breaks probably helps concentration for those players who tend to go missing.

Need to arrange subs so that our inside midfielders have good ball users around them at all times.

Would like to see Picken utilize his pace by developing an offensive side to his game and Boyd to minimise his deficiencies in much the same way cross has done by developing more of a defensive game.

One thing Collingwood do is they don't have pure flankers, these guys all get rotated through the midfield.

[stefoid]

^^^ Fair summary stefoid. I disagree on Everitt (intensity issues) and don't think Libba (and probably not Wallis) will be ready for a major impact next year, but the overall sentiment is something we need to implement.
I'd be hoping Reid graduates from back-up to legitimate midfield option, DFA pretty close to best 22 next year as well after his late-season run.

Swap Wallis and Reid if you will, but (by all accounts), Wallis brings to the side elite decision making and disposal, and thats something we sorely need. If he has the fitness base, I have no problem fast tracking him in much the same manner as we did Ward, who I initially thought was brought in too early - he played some howlers in his first 10 games.

I cant get a handle on Everitt, but I do know that when Hargrave, Hall, Lake and Morris are starting to fade, we will be gald he is around. Would we be in a better or worse position today if Everitt had played every game Hahn played this year?

[Greystache]

Because he's 25 and Hooper is 19. Moles is as good as he is going to get. He may develop further in some areas but we pretty much know what we're getting.

Hooper is an unknown, young, quick and apparently goal savvy. I don't think he is the next messiah but he is a more exciting prospect than Moles is IMO.

On the contrary the club believes Moles has a massive upside, the problem is he suffers badly with pre-game nerves. He gets so wound up before a game he's mentally exhausted before the first bounce. They feel if we can work with him to overcome this he could become an A grade midfielder.

[Mofra]

I cant get a handle on Everitt, but I do know that when Hargrave, Hall, Lake and Morris are starting to fade, we will be gald he is around. Would we be in a better or worse position today if Everitt had played every game Hahn played this year?
I'm not sold on Everitt, although I would have prefered him to Hahn for much of the season as the tallish target in the forward 6 - Roughy going forward, the development of Grant and Jones getting games has rendered Hahn (sadly) redundant.
In terms of defence I haven't shut the book on Tiller just yet, and I'll start the alternating chorus of Faulks (with the reply "no, Shangher!") gladly :)

[bornadog]

On the contrary the club believes Moles has a massive upside, the problem is he suffers badly with pre-game nerves. He gets so wound up before a game he's mentally exhausted before the first bounce. They feel if we can work with him to overcome this he could become an A grade midfielder.

You can tell he is the nervous type, he tends to hurry his disposal, yet when he takes his time he can give it a real roost.

[Greystache]

You can tell he is the nervous type, he tends to hurry his disposal, yet when he takes his time he can give it a real roost.

To be honest I hadn't really noticed. I heard it from one of the match committee

[stefoid]

One thing Collingwood do is they don't have pure flankers, these guys all get rotated through the midfield.

yes more than most. Obviously guys like obrien, maxwell, shaw, toovey, play their defensive flanks, but their forward flankers tend to take their turn in the midfield.

We can do a similar thing with guys like higgins, cooney, gia, picken... players with a bit of pace and/or forward craft.

Addison, I cant get a handle on just now. I think for his development, it would be better for him to be added to the 'backup' list in the short term, where he can continue to evolve as a midfield option. Im sure if he continues to improve his disposal and decision making, his time will come when our older midfielders are fading.

[Desipura]

You can tell he is the nervous type, he tends to hurry his disposal, yet when he takes his time he can give it a real roost.
It always puzzled me why he would hit a player lace out, then butcher it other times.

[bornadog]

Addison, I cant get a handle on just now. I think for his development, it would be better for him to be added to the 'backup' list in the short term, where he can continue to evolve as a midfield option. Im sure if he continues to improve his disposal and decision making, his time will come when our older midfielders are fading.

I have seen him play more in the midfield at Willi, so the club must think he can develop into a role like that. I think a defensive forward is ideal for him.

[Sockeye Salmon]

On the contrary the club believes Moles has a massive upside, the problem is he suffers badly with pre-game nerves. He gets so wound up before a game he's mentally exhausted before the first bounce. They feel if we can work with him to overcome this he could become an A grade midfielder.

I'd like to see how Moles goes as a small lock-down defender - Tim Callan with skill if you like.

[Mofra]

I'd like to see how Moles goes as a small lock-down defender - Tim Callan with skill if you like.
Does he have the agility? He'd probably tick every other box.

[Greystache]

I'd like to see how Moles goes as a small lock-down defender - Tim Callan with skill if you like.

Maybe, but if he's a mess before a game when he's playing in the midfield I would expect that to be magnified if he knew he had a defensive role to play.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Maybe, but if he's a mess before a game when he's playing in the midfield I would expect that to be magnified if he knew he had a defensive role to play.

Sit him next to Lake and Cooney, that should help him calm down and take it easy.

[BulldogBelle]

Hargrave is an example of a versatile, flexible footballer who does nothing very well but everything just okay. "Tried hard" is the report about every week on him. This lark about him playing out of his height and weight division, getting forward to snag a running goal from time to time, is getting a bit old for mine. He lacks poise and often clangers us into danger. I would not mind seeing him packed off to Richmond or Freo while there is still time, and giving his place to a young developing genuine defender.

Agreed. I actually have thought he might benefit from a move up to the wing. Very hard to m atch up on, and plays much better when he can get out in open space.

[BulldogBelle]

Less emphasis must be placed on the senior group and more faith given to the younger guys, look at the Collingwood model, they have been able to replace Medhurst, Lockyer, Frasier, Davis and Presti at times this year when form was substandard. We should be able to make Hahn, Gilbee, Boyd, Hargrave etc accountable and put pressure on their spots by having faith in fellas like Everitt (if he stays), Reid, Ward, Hooper and the rest of the young brigade with senior games. From next year we should abolish the current 'credits' selection system that Eade seems to hold and make all 22 spots open based solely on performance.

Thought I was reading my own post from a different forum!!!!! To true. If our MC was at Collingwood, they would still have Medhurst, Lockyer and Fraser playing, and they would have finished 4th. Time to take the responsibility of being matchwinners away from Hargreaves, Gilbee, Cross and Boyd, and pass it on. For us to win a premiership, those named need to play well, but out matchwinners will be Cooney, Griffin, Grant, Everett, Jones.

[Mofra]

Thought I was reading my own post from a different forum!!!!! To true. If our MC was at Collingwood, they would still have Medhurst, Lockyer and Fraser playing, and they would have finished 4th. Time to take the responsibility of being matchwinners away from Hargreaves, Gilbee, Cross and Boyd, and pass it on. For us to win a premiership, those named need to play well, but out matchwinners will be Cooney, Griffin, Grant, Everett, Jones.
Collingwood had young guys pushing hard for selection, we didn't have as many.
The young guys we had that pushed for selection were Grant early in the season, Wood, Roughy when fit, Jones, DFA and Moles. Grant & Wood are now best 22, Moles not quite there but the club thinks he could be a player, and Jones looked raw but promising and coudl feasibly play the bulk of next year at AFL level. DFA was one of our better players during the finals and possibly stormed his way into best 22 calculations on the back of a few games of football, and Roughy cam close to taking out Minson's no2 ruckman spot (and may well have it come round 1 next year).
Hooper was close as well, debuted, and will probably play a senior football next year.

We have been playing kids, but Collingwood's group are hitting the 50 game mark. Our next generation are a season or two behind that, and not as big a proportion of the club.

[Mantis]

We have been playing kids, but Collingwood's group are hitting the 50 game mark. Our next generation are a season or two behind that, and not as big a proportion of the club.

Collingwood had 7 players in last weeks PF that have played under 50 games, that's quite a lot. I would think besides Blair most of these would be atleast 2nd year players.

It would be interesting to know how many of these played in the finals last year when they were off the pace. In my mind it was quite a few and perhaps throwing these guys too the wolves last year has fast tracked their development.

Hopefully we see a rise in performance from the likes of Grant, Wood and Hooper as they have seen what's required to play 'finals footy'. For the same reason it would have been great to give Jones and Roughy a game, but I guess Roughy's shoulder problems meant it wasn't feasible.

[LostDoggy]

Andrew Krakouer is available again, he just won the sandover medal 27yrs old, just the sought of player we are looking for.surely worth a look.
and what about Brad Miller from Melbourne (delisted) another tall strong target up forward?

[comrade]

and what about Brad Miller from Melbourne (delisted) another tall strong target up forward?

Can we draft his wife?

[The Coon Dog]

Andrew Krakouer is available again, he just won the sandover medal 27yrs old, just the sought of player we are looking for.surely worth a look.
and what about Brad Miller from Melbourne (delisted) another tall strong target up forward?

I think you'll find Andrew Krakouer will be taken by Gold Coast as they have first crack at players who have previously been on a list. From there they are likely to trade him to WCE for a pick.

[EasternWest]

Andrew Krakouer is available again, he just won the sandover medal 27yrs old, just the sought of player we are looking for.surely worth a look.
and what about Brad Miller from Melbourne (delisted) another tall strong target up forward?

I don't know about Miller. Looks like he should be the total package, but he isn't.

Looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane. Could a new club change that? Don't know.

[soupman]

and what about Brad Miller from Melbourne (delisted) another tall strong target up forward?

Miller doesn't fit our needs at all. A big, strong key forward who would just take games away from Jones and a spot on the list from a young player who could potentially be better than average. Getting Pia Miller however would be an outstanding trade.

[Before I Die]

Collingwood had 7 players in last weeks PF that have played under 50 games, that's quite a lot. I would think besides Blair most of these would be atleast 2nd year players.

It would be interesting to know how many of these played in the finals last year when they were off the pace. In my mind it was quite a few and perhaps throwing these guys too the wolves last year has fast tracked their development.

Hopefully we see a rise in performance from the likes of Grant, Wood and Hooper as they have seen what's required to play 'finals footy'. For the same reason it would have been great to give Jones and Roughy a game, but I guess Roughy's shoulder problems meant it wasn't feasible.

It is not just about improvements in players per se, it is also about improvement in game plan and the ability of players to adhere to it. Presti is a better fullback than N Brown, but it doesn't matter as long as the back six all follow team rules. Medhurst is probably the best one on one forward the pies have, but Beams and Sidebottom fit the team plan better.

I mentioned this in an earlier post, would trading Lake, Hargrave and Wood for Dawson, Blake and Ray improve our back six? The majority of WOOF posters are looking for the magic ingredient, I hope Eade and co are looking for the perfect recipe for the ingredients they already have.

[Greystache]

I don't know about Miller. Looks like he should be the total package, but he isn't.

Looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane. Could a new club change that? Don't know.

Do you know if he has ever played in defence?

[Desipura]

I do not think there will be a readymade kpp backman available (other than Tarrant) so we may have to look at recycled players.

[Dry Rot]

I think the OP asks the wrong question.

IMO the recruitment of Hall has obscured our decline from last year, and Gia, Gilbee, Hargrave, Murphy and Hahn will not get any better and mostly decline, possibly the same for Hall and Hudson. Harbrow is gone, and we could lose another very good player to GWS next year too.

I'd be asking what we need to do in 2011 to maximise a shot at a flag in 2012 or 2013. And unfortunately, a coach in his last year of his contract may not be best suited to this task.

[stefoid]

Do we need to trade for a key back desperately with Lake, Williams, Everitt, Hargrave available?

I think we should look at drafting one for depth, but not trading.

[comrade]

I hope Eade and co are looking for the perfect recipe for the ingredients they already have.

This is a really, really good point.

[chef]

Andrew Krakouer is available again, he just won the sandover medal 27yrs old, just the sought of player we are looking for.surely worth a look.
and what about Brad Miller from Melbourne (delisted) another tall strong target up forward?

Why?

One of the last people I want on our list.

[EasternWest]

Do you know if he has ever played in defence?

Nah not sure. I only ever remember him playing forward. And being underwhelming for the most part. I think he had a huge game against Brisbane a few years back, but never went on with it.

[Greystache]

Nah not sure. I only ever remember him playing forward. And being underwhelming for the most part. I think he had a huge game against Brisbane a few years back, but never went on with it.

Fair eough, just pondering whether he could be a viable option as a mature back up defender while we try to develop one of Mulligan/Boumann/Tiller (my feeling is we'll delist Tiller and Boumann). He's got the physical attributes, not sure about the talent/concentration.

[Stefcep]

i don't think we have a playing list problem. I think our list has a good balance of youth and experience. BUT compared to Collingwood, St kilda and Geelong, we play a very hapharzard style.

We either lack a system, or the players are not drilled well enough to play whatever system they're supposed to be playing. It begins with the way we get bogged in at our kick-ins from a conceded behind, to the way there is a lack of organisation at stoppages, to the way we bring the ball out of defense and break down at half forward because of a lack of forward options or just hopeful kicking to no-one in particular.

The delivery in to the forward line has been MUCH worse since Hall's arrival. We've gone from precision passing to very damaging small forwards that made us the top scoring team in the AFL with multiple goal kickers, to skying hopeful kicks, where we score less per match with far fewer goal scorers. This Hall or nothing approach needs to end, and we need to pass to Hall and the other forwards like we used to when Hall wasn't there- Hall ought to be just one option, not the only option.

[becmatty]

We will also need to CAREFULLY select a captain...

[LostDoggy]

Can we draft his wife?

:p

This comes up on WOOF everytime Brad's name comes up. All in fun, I'm sure, but Pia is a good old personal family friend, and I'm finding the refrain getting maybe a wee old...

Having said that, she gets paid to be professionally good-looking, so I guess innocent comments about her looks are entirely appropriate. Carry on.

[Mofra]

Having said that, she gets paid to be professionally good-looking
And here I am doing it for free! :p

[comrade]

:p

This comes up on WOOF everytime Brad's name comes up. All in fun, I'm sure, but Pia is a good old personal family friend, and I'm finding the refrain getting maybe a wee old...

Having said that, she gets paid to be professionally good-looking, so I guess innocent comments about her looks are entirely appropriate. Carry on.

Exactly.

She's stunning and seems like a genuinely nice person, too from the media work she does.

Well done, Brad (but you're not welcome at the Bulldogs :)).

[1eyedog]

:p

This comes up on WOOF everytime Brad's name comes up. All in fun, I'm sure, but Pia is a good old personal family friend, and I'm finding the refrain getting maybe a wee old...

Having said that, she gets paid to be professionally good-looking, so I guess innocent comments about her looks are entirely appropriate. Carry on.

She gets paid to market a product, being good looking is the prerequisite to her marketing position.

Being a family friend of yours will not (and should not) censor other peoples opinion on her looks.

Just don't take any notice.

[LostDoggy]

i don't think we have a playing list problem. I think our list has a good balance of youth and experience. BUT compared to Collingwood, St kilda and Geelong, we play a very hapharzard style.


Isn't this supposed to be intentional? I seem to remember references to 'play on at all costs', 'diagonal ball movement' etc., and a Bob Murphy piece sometime back about how our gamestyle is supposed to be organised chaos, and how we have patterns that are supposed to be confusing to our opposition but makes sense to us.

Well, a few years of video analysis later it would seem that the better clubs have worked out our movement patterns. Besides, the big tactical move in the last three years has been a zonal press, which we haven't quite seem to have cottoned on to.. we're the only serious contending team with a forwardline that believes tackling is a secondary task. Other teams have forwards who can barely kick but have as their primary purpose an intimidating forward 50 tackling presence. Addison seemed to play this role in the finals, but it's still seems a bit of a tactical afterthought with our MC rather than a serious focus.

[Mantis]

Isn't this supposed to be intentional? I seem to remember references to 'play on at all costs', 'diagonal ball movement' etc., and a Bob Murphy piece sometime back about how our gamestyle is supposed to be organised chaos, and how we have patterns that are supposed to be confusing to our opposition but makes sense to us.

Well, a few years of video analysis later it would seem that the better clubs have worked out our movement patterns. Besides, the big tactical move in the last three years has been a zonal press, which we haven't quite seem to have cottoned on to.. we're the only serious contending team with a forwardline that believes tackling is a secondary task. Other teams have forwards who can barely kick but have as their primary purpose an intimidating forward 50 tackling presence. Addison seemed to play this role in the finals, but it's still seems a bit of a tactical afterthought with our MC rather than a serious focus.

It is a real area of weakness of our team and something that needs to improve.

When Paul Williams came to the club I can remember being reported that he would like to add a real defensive aspect to our forwardline. So far this hasn't happened and it needs too.. In fairness to Paul I'm not sure if he has had the cattle to carry out this game plan, but we have all seen thus far that a forwarline that doesn't create turnovers isn't going to be able to beat the best teams.

[Stefcep]

Isn't this supposed to be intentional? I seem to remember references to 'play on at all costs', 'diagonal ball movement' etc., and a Bob Murphy piece sometime back about how our gamestyle is supposed to be organised chaos, and how we have patterns that are supposed to be confusing to our opposition but makes sense to us.

Don't remember that one. Well they did a good job of making me believe we had no system, when all along that was the plan!



Well, a few years of video analysis later it would seem that the better clubs have worked out our movement patterns. Besides, the big tactical move in the last three years has been a zonal press, which we haven't quite seem to have cottoned on to.. we're the only serious contending team with a forwardline that believes tackling is a secondary task. Other teams have forwards who can barely kick but have as their primary purpose an intimidating forward 50 tackling presence. Addison seemed to play this role in the finals, but it's still seems a bit of a tactical afterthought with our MC rather than a serious focus.

years ago someone said :defense begins when you don't have the ball."

[Mofra]

When Paul Williams came to the club I can remember being reported that he would like to add a real defensive aspect to our forwardline. So far this hasn't happened and it needs too.. In fairness to Paul I'm not sure if he has had the cattle to carry out this game plan, but we have all seen thus far that a forwarline that doesn't create turnovers isn't going to be able to beat the best teams.
Part of the reason for that is a lack of pace in the F50 IMO.
The emergence of Grant, Jones & Hooper will hopefully go some way to restoring the emphasis.

[bornadog]

Part of the reason for that is a lack of pace in the F50 IMO.
The emergence of Grant, Jones & Hooper will hopefully go some way to restoring the emphasis.

Correct, guys like Gia, Johnno, Hahn = no pace

[LostDoggy]

Part of the reason for that is a lack of pace in the F50 IMO.
The emergence of Grant, Jones & Hooper will hopefully go some way to restoring the emphasis.

Would have liked to see this kid get a finals game this year.

[LostDoggy]

Correct, guys like Gia, Johnno, Hahn = no pace

And yet we persisted with playing them, seemingly with the idea that defense in the forward 50 was optional, and as long as these guys were scoring goals they didn't have to be marked harshly the other way.

None of them would be played in a Saints or Collingwood forwardline if they didn't back up their offensive work with a defensive mindset. Even Milne had to change his focus to get a game with St.Kilda. That's why Medhurst and Anthony can't get a game with Collingwood.

I think the way football tactics have moved, it isn't optional. The fact that the guys mentioned kept getting picked means that the MC don't see defensive effectiveness in the forward 50 as a non-negotiable.

[LostDoggy]

To be fair to Rocket, Collingwood struggled before this season to implement forwardline pressure effectively as well .. insiders (I'm talking Pies and Saints matchday staff) have mentioned in private conversations I've had with them (one as recently as the Pies-Cats prelim) that they think Luke Ball going to the Pies has been a massive factor in Collingwood's improved gameplan, as he is a very smart bloke, and Malthouse picking his brain has had a lot to do with transplanting key elements of the Saints frontal press to the Pies. It would be ironic if Lyon getting rid of Ball has helped Collingwood beat St.Kilda at its own game.

What's Farren's memory like? We might want to think about getting him back *grin*.