Is The Beard in trouble?

[boydogs]

He has had a great season, but he will be 32 when the 2011 season starts and likely to be in decline. 2010 taught us nothing if not that a good season does not guarantee another next year when you are north of 30.

The proposed interchange rule changes make it an even bigger disadvantage to have 2 specialist ruckmen such as Hudson and Minson. Roughead is a lot better around the ground, and we can expect more from Minson next year without the soy milk debacle ruining his pre-season

Some posters are suggesting a Minson trade, but then what do we do in 2012 or 2013 when Hudson is likely to be gone? Roughead & Cordy would still be very young to be shouldering the load alone.

Retiring Hudson would prevent us from keeping Roughead and possibly Cordy at some stage out of the side, slowing their development. It would free some room in the cap to invest elsewhere to address key needs.

We may need Williams, Everitt or a new recruit backup behind Minson & Roughead, but those options would be more versatile than Hudson, which will allow us to compete in terms of running power with any interchange restrictions in place.

Thoughts?

I think we are probably better off holding him until Cordy is an option, but I think there are some valid questions raised here that have not been discussed

[Greystache]

His first season as an AFL footballer was when he was 25, he also had a year out with a knee, so I think his body isn't anywhere near as battered as your average 31 year old, I look at him more as a 28-29 year old.

[mjp]

No. By far our best ruckman. By far.

He will be fine.

[Rocco Jones]

Isn't he coming off his career best season?

[LostDoggy]

How dare you question the beard!

[Flamethrower]

I read the title and though that someone had shaved it off on Mad Monday. :eek:

[chef]

He still has at least another 2 seasons in him, barring serious injury.

[LostDoggy]

With Minson, Roughy and Cordy there to provide backup he could have a well earned rest for a week to help him get through if need be, there probably won't be a need to do so, but the option is there.

[LostDoggy]

I read the title and though that someone had shaved it off on Mad Monday. :eek:

Me too!! I couldn't see him playing up at Mad Monday but I could see others taking advantage of one's state of intoxication.

[LostDoggy]

Me too!! I couldn't see him playing up at Mad Monday but I could see others taking advantage of one's state of intoxication.

:eek: Who was the intoxicated? And are you far off from the pearly whites? Not appearing with them on The Footy Show Grand Final tonight are you? ;)

[EasternWest]

No. By far our best ruckman. By far.

He will be fine.

I think the OP raises some valid concerns. I agree that without him, we would definitely have lost more games, no question. He was super. And he probably will be fine, but for how long?


Isn't he coming off his career best season?

And Johnno finished fourth in the B&F the year before. And we saw how that one worked out.

The point is that as we've all seen once the decline starts, it happens very quickly. I thought Huddo had his colours lowered in the PF. The Saints obviously targeted our ruckmen for their lack of run and it hurt us.

The issue is that the day of the slow lumbering ruckman is passing. You need only look at our own club for proof. Our two ruck prospects, Roughead and Cordy, are lean mobile rucks.

I'm not calling the end of Huddo's career. Despite age, form does count, and he has been super. But at 31, and with the bang and crash style he loves, I wouldn't be surprised if 2011 was his last year. To say that he only started at 25 doesn't count for too much IMO. He's still 31 and still has a big, banged up body.

[LostDoggy]

Hudson needs to stay. But he needs to be on 1 year contracts from now on. Minson needs to stay so he can take over once Hudson goes.

Just don't know if Minson will be happy to spend a year at the VFL waiting for Hudson to finish.

[LostDoggy]

:eek: Who was the intoxicated? And are you far off from the pearly whites? Not appearing with them on The Footy Show Grand Final tonight are you? ;)

I have a very good source (Wend1604) who saw DaDruid Monday morning with his new pearly whites. :D

[Mofra]

And Johnno finished fourth in the B&F the year before. And we saw how that one worked out.

The point is that as we've all seen once the decline starts, it happens very quickly. I thought Huddo had his colours lowered in the PF. The Saints obviously targeted our ruckmen for their lack of run and it hurt us.
This is what worries me too - not just Hudson, but Hall as well.
We need to make provisions for a sudden drop off for our over 30s. Hudson I expect to play longer simply because he started later, but chances are with the new interchange rule he will spend more time in the ruck with Roughy spending time forward.

[Bulldog Joe]

Hudson needs to stay. But he needs to be on 1 year contracts from now on. Minson needs to stay so he can take over once Hudson goes.

Just don't know if Minson will be happy to spend a year at the VFL waiting for Hudson to finish.

Surely with both Hall and Hudson getting on in years, we need to give them rest periods.
I would advocate 1 week off in 4 for both of them.

I see an easy rotation using Minson and Roughead with one of the four out of the senior line-up each week.

When Hall is rested, Roughead becomes the marking target, but backs up Minson/Hudson when Hall plays. It would not only help Hall and Hudson get through the season, but would also take some pressure off Roughy's shoulders as his body develops. It would also help develop the extra dimension of Roughy as a forward.

[LostDoggy]

I do like the way you think BJ.

[EasternWest]

Surely with both Hall and Hudson getting on in years, we need to give them rest periods.
I would advocate 1 week off in 4 for both of them.

I see an easy rotation using Minson and Roughead with one of the four out of the senior line-up each week.

When Hall is rested, Roughead becomes the marking target, but backs up Minson/Hudson when Hall plays. It would not only help Hall and Hudson get through the season, but would also take some pressure off Roughy's shoulders as his body develops. It would also help develop the extra dimension of Roughy as a forward.

The idea is sound, but it's too hard to put into practice. What if our best ruckman is scheduled for a rest when we come up against a team with two great rucks? Or even a lower side who is enjoying a purple patch and we need our best team on the park?

I like the idea of resting, but it's going to have to be on an as needs basis.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

The idea is sound, but it's too hard to put into practice. What if our best ruckman is scheduled for a rest when we come up against a team with two great rucks? Or even a lower side who is enjoying a purple patch and we need our best team on the park?

I like the idea of resting, but it's going to have to be on an as needs basis.

This.

We definitely need to manage Hudson (and Hall) better than we have in recent years. Rather than waiting until they feel sore, giving them a week off in the early-mid part of the year might help. Hudson more so than Hall, as I feel 2/3 years Huddo has been a little burnt out in finals. Missing around 4 games (or so) would be beneficial to his body.

[Bulldog Joe]

The idea is sound, but it's too hard to put into practice. What if our best ruckman is scheduled for a rest when we come up against a team with two great rucks? Or even a lower side who is enjoying a purple patch and we need our best team on the park?

I like the idea of resting, but it's going to have to be on an as needs basis.

I don't see it as hard to put into practice at all.

Realistically, prior to 2010 Minson was pretty close to Hudson. If you factor in the interruptions Will had you can overlook 2010.

I recall Hudson being rested in round 22 for 2008 and 2009 and Minson did an admirable job on both occasions.

Obviously if one of the four has a genuine injury he rests, but the others become interchangeable REGARDLESS of the opposition. If we are to be a genuine contender we need to be able to cover a player of that standard and if we enforce it through the h&a the finals spots simply go to the best performers.

[EasternWest]

I don't see it as hard to put into practice at all.
Realistically, prior to 2010 Minson was pretty close to Hudson. If you factor in the interruptions Will had you can overlook 2010.

I recall Hudson being rested in round 22 for 2008 and 2009 and Minson did an admirable job on both occasions.

Obviously if one of the four has a genuine injury he rests, but the others become interchangeable REGARDLESS of the opposition. If we are to be a genuine contender we need to be able to cover a player of that standard and if we enforce it through the h&a the finals spots simply go to the best performers.

No the idea isn't hard to put into practice, but scheduled breaks I don't think are feasible.

[mjp]

Realistically, prior to 2010 Minson was pretty close to Hudson.

Huh?

Do you mean they have lockers close to one another? Or that they were great mates? If you are talking about their performances on the field, well, no. It wasn't close - whilst Hudson was winning stoppages Minson was dropping marks down at full-forward.

I cannot understand how the impact of Hudson on our clearance play over the past couple of seasons is so easily dismissed...before he arrived we were a woeful stoppages team. We have been amongst the best in the league since he got here.

[LostDoggy]

And Ben is coming off All-Australian form (if the selectors weren't so media-blinkered).

We can schedule breaks based on best-case scenario when the fixture comes out, with the proviso that it is a flexible schedule. Bulldog Joe makes a good point mainly in saying that we REALLY need to get breaks into the older guys, which Rocket has promised for two seasons now but has rarely practiced. In that sense, advance planning seems to be a prudent way to try to ensure that it happens.

[Sedat]

I cannot understand how the impact of Hudson on our clearance play over the past couple of seasons is so easily dismissed...before he arrived we were a woeful stoppages team. We have been amongst the best in the league since he got here.
This.

We were bottom 2 for clearances and contested possessions when we had the lamp post as our ruckman, and the minute Huddo came to the club we have been in the top 3-4 clubs in the competition in both key stastical measurements. Put simply Huddo has been a massive influence in transforming us from a bottom 4 club (that was inept at the stoppages) to a top 4 club the last 3 years running.

I sincerely hope the beard isn't in trouble yet because he has been a vitally important part of our team for the last 3 years. He is basically an older Mumford, who I believe will be the best ruckman in the competition within the next 2 years. I love the ruckmen that bash into their opponents and then work their arse off at ground level to block for their teammates or win the contested possession themselves. The tall mobile ruckmen that racks up the stats across half back are very overrated IMO. Why would you want your lumbering big blokes to get it 25 times when your mids can actually run with it and cause much more damage? These types are good for nothing but Super Coach IMO.

[Rocco Jones]

If the Beard is in trouble than anywhere near 30 is in trouble. Of course his career can go into decline quickly but that's the same with so many players. I think his game is less reliant the things you lose with old age than anyone else on the list.

I have been a strong advocate of the modern game only allowing for one pure ruckman but that's all Hudson needs. He is an absolute gun at the moment and miles ahead of Will in the role.

[Bulldog Joe]

Huh?

Do you mean they have lockers close to one another? Or that they were great mates? If you are talking about their performances on the field, well, no. It wasn't close - whilst Hudson was winning stoppages Minson was dropping marks down at full-forward.

I cannot understand how the impact of Hudson on our clearance play over the past couple of seasons is so easily dismissed...before he arrived we were a woeful stoppages team. We have been amongst the best in the league since he got here.

mjp I believe you are being harsh on Will.

Minson debuted in 2004 and was a very good ruckman in 2005 in his second year including a match winning performance against Brisbane.

In 2006 and 2007 he had injury interruptions (broken leg in 2007)

He has played as second ruck behind Hudson through 08 and 09 playing 25 games in both years. He also took over the No 1 role successfully when Hudson missed. As a team we lost little when Minson was rucking.

2010 was a disaster for Will and it actually started in the 09 finals when he suffered a broken toe, followed by the Soy Milk saga combining to destroy his pre-season. When he was back and playing well he suffered a pretty serious ankle injury (Hawthorn game).

While this was happening to Will, Hudson produced his best ever season. I think this gives a false sense of their relative merits.

If the next pre-season for Will is uninterrupted I think you will see him perform at a good standard, wherever he plays.

[mjp]

mjp I believe you are being harsh on Will.


Maybe. I am certainly very tired of his on-ground tough man antics that never seem to be backed up by either effort or output.



Minson debuted in 2004 and was a very good ruckman in 2005 in his second year including a match winning performance against Brisbane.

Hmmm. A VERY good ruckman? I don't think so. He was a very good ruckman for a second year player, but let's not get too carried away. We saw isolated flashes of what he could be - the Brisbane game (Chris Grant's 300th I reckon) was a good example, but are we crediting him or Cooney - or Darcy! - with the match winning aspect of that one?



In 2006 and 2007 he had injury interruptions (broken leg in 2007)

Acknowledged.




He has played as second ruck behind Hudson through 08 and 09 playing 25 games in both years. He also took over the No 1 role successfully when Hudson missed. As a team we lost little when Minson was rucking.

Strongly disagree that we lost nothing when Hudson was out. We certainly didn't miss having Will dropping marks in the forward line.



2010 was a disaster for Will and it actually started in the 09 finals when he suffered a broken toe, followed by the Soy Milk saga combining to destroy his pre-season. When he was back and playing well he suffered a pretty serious ankle injury (Hawthorn game).

While this was happening to Will, Hudson produced his best ever season. I think this gives a false sense of their relative merits.


Agree with most of that...except the part where Minson never really took hold of games at VFL level. Interrupted pre-season or not, he should be dominating second tier footy and he simply isn't.



If the next pre-season for Will is uninterrupted I think you will see him perform at a good standard, wherever he plays.

For his sake I hope so, but I just haven't seen any compelling evidence that this will happen. He does not work hard to provide a marking target, his release by hand is slow and often mis-directed and he regularly gives away dumb free-kicks that should have been out of his game by u16's.

[LostDoggy]

With Jacobs, Blake, West, and others on the market, not a good time to be trading a ruckmam, his value would decrease, supply/demand.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Strongly disagree that we lost nothing when Hudson was out. We certainly didn't miss having Will dropping marks in the forward line.


I think that Minson's biggest perception problem. As a forward he is bone fide poo. As a forward Hudson is double bone fide poo so Minson has to do it. I wonder if our perceptions would change if it was Hudson playing deep forward dropping marks instead?



Agree with most of that...except the part where Minson never really took hold of games at VFL level. Interrupted pre-season or not, he should be dominating second tier footy and he simply isn't.


He simply is. Will was really very good for Willi including a couple of games that were beauties.

If Hudson and Roughead keep him out next year Minson will win the Liston.

[Raw Toast]

Huh?I cannot understand how the impact of Hudson on our clearance play over the past couple of seasons is so easily dismissed...before he arrived we were a woeful stoppages team. We have been amongst the best in the league since he got here.


And Ben is coming off All-Australian form (if the selectors weren't so media-blinkered).

Agree with both these. Hudson was in the best few rucks this year. We as a club know it, so it doesn't matter as much that the rest of the footy world doesn't seem to. But our supporters should be recognising him as the incredibly important player he is.


I think that Minson's biggest perception problem. As a forward he is bone fide poo. As a forward Hudson is double bone fide poo so Minson has to do it. I wonder if our perceptions would change if it was Hudson playing deep forward dropping marks instead?

Will was really very good for Willi including a couple of games that were beauties.

If Hudson and Roughead keep him out next year Minson will win the Liston.

Excellent post imo. While Hudson has been great, Minson is seriously undervalued. He's had a bad run and makes some appalling mistakes at times. But he's likely to be coming into his prime in the next few years and while Roughead will likely challenge him again next year he's done enough to indicate that he still has a pretty significant upside and I wouldn't be thinking of trading him unless the deal was very heavily weighted in our favour.

[craigsahibee]

I read the title and though that someone had shaved it off on Mad Monday. :eek:

It's listed by the National Trust, so anyone even suspected of shaving it off could go away for a very long time.

[Bulldog Joe]

Maybe. I am certainly very tired of his on-ground tough man antics that never seem to be backed up by either effort or output.

I acknowledge that Will has had a few issues with free kicks, but disgree on his output.


Hmmm. A VERY good ruckman? I don't think so. He was a very good ruckman for a second year player, but let's not get too carried away. We saw isolated flashes of what he could be - the Brisbane game (Chris Grant's 300th I reckon) was a good example, but are we crediting him or Cooney - or Darcy! - with the match winning aspect of that one?

The Chris Grant game was against Adelaide and Darcy was the important player, allowed to play forward by Minson successfully taking the ruck duties. The Brisbane game I alluded to was later in the season (Darcy out with a knee injured the week after the Adelaide game). Cooney got the accolades for centre clearances, but received every one (about 8) directly from a Minson hitout

Acknowledged.



Strongly disagree that we lost nothing when Hudson was out. We certainly didn't miss having Will dropping marks in the forward line.

Will took over the ruck duties and dominated particularly against Collingwood in 09



Agree with most of that...except the part where Minson never really took hold of games at VFL level. Interrupted pre-season or not, he should be dominating second tier footy and he simply isn't.

Sorry mjp but this point is simply wrong. Minson DID dominate at VFL level. I attended 2 games and watched 2 on TV and he was BOG in all of them, including 1 against Werribee where he was the prime instigator in a 75 point turnaround in the second half.



For his sake I hope so, but I just haven't seen any compelling evidence that this will happen. He does not work hard to provide a marking target, his release by hand is slow and often mis-directed and he regularly gives away dumb free-kicks that should have been out of his game by u16's.

Again I disagree on him working hard enough. He has consistently been as good or better than Hudson in this aspect until 2010. He certainly took more marks. I do concede the frees as Will's problem

mjp I usually find your posts well informed, but I repeat that I feel you are being a little harsh on Will.