We are better

[LostDoggy]

I dont care what anyone says on this forum or any other!

I dont care if the Mods or any other Woofer thinks this is not worthy of a thread!

I dont care what anyone says on the street or off it!

I dont care what my Boss or Workmates thinks!

I dont care what my friends or family says!

Our full side at 98% or 97% FSI is better than the Saints today tomorrow or next week and it pisses me off to watch them run around with their heads held high. It pisses me off to watch them crack the Pies with nothing more than what Our full side has.

It pisses me off to listen to commentators praise the Saints for their pressure and skill!

Because our fully fit side is better than theirs and I dont want to see a Replay!

End this terribly unlucky season NOW!

[Dry Rot]

Someone else here posted that we are 15-20% off the pace of the two teams who played today, and I agree with them.

We are not better than either of them.

[Remi Moses]

We have to improve our tackling pressure immediately to take the next step.
Ability wise I'd say we're the equal and better,but we just have to improve our pressure and the WHOLE side has to be in synch . The lack of tackling by most is totally unacceptable,the saints and the pies bring intensity to every moment not just occasionally like we do!!!

[Remi Moses]

They get praised and rightly so! I thought their comeback was heroic and a credit to their belief.

[Before I Die]

We have to improve our tackling pressure immediately to take the next step.
Ability wise I'd say we're the equal and better,but we just have to improve our pressure and the WHOLE side has to be in synch . The lack of tackling by most is totally unacceptable,the saints and the pies bring intensity to every moment not just occasionally like we do!!!

I think there is no doubt we have a list of equal quality, it is all about game plan and implementation. I am hoping we can pick up an assistant coach from Collingwood or St.Kilda for next year. Max Hughton going to Collingwood and there adoption of a zone game plan this year are not unrelated. We have an opening, let's take the opportunity.

[LostDoggy]

I used to think we were as good but not now, who do we have who could take a mark like Goddard did in those final minutes, or kick a goal from 50 under enormous pressue like Hayes????

[Twodogs]

No. We're not.


If we were we would have been playing yesterday, it's as simple as that.

[EasternWest]

I think across the board our skill level would be better, but the Saints have three game breaking superstars and play to a disciplined plan (as much as I hate that plan).

Sorry Rooner, love your passion, but can't agree.

But next year. Next year :).

[LostDoggy]

We have just lost three preliminary finals in a row .......... what does that tell you?

[Greystache]

We've got a combined record of 0-5 against these two teams this year for a reason.

The way their leaders stand up when the game gets tight, the COLLECTIVE effort of their defensive pressure, and the ability of their players to kick goals under pressure put them a long way ahead of us.

[DOG GOD]

I couldnt see Boyd or Cross kicking that goal that Lenny did yesterday, 50 out under immense pressure. They have leaders who take the game by the scruff and bust a gut for their team mates. Until we get that, we arent even close.

[LostDoggy]

I couldnt see Boyd or Cross kicking that goal that Lenny did yesterday, 50 out under immense pressure. They have leaders who take the game by the scruff and bust a gut for their team mates. Until we get that, we arent even close.

Agree DG - I hope our players see what they have to do......

[bornadog]

Everything has to go right, especially in the last 4 weeks leading up to the finals, so no injuries, all players in top form and all clicking like a team and playing for each other.

We are a top four team, but we had too many passengers this year in the finals. You can't play in a final with players who can't even get their hands on the ball, especially in the first half. eg versus Collingwood, Gia, Eagle, Johnno, Grant, Higgins didn't even have 20 disposals between them.

[azabob]

It pisses me off to listen to commentators praise the Saints for their pressure and skill!

!

Do you know why it annoys you so? Its because you wish our team could be like their's. Nothing more, nothing less.

[mjp]

Our full side at 98% or 97% FSI is better than the Saints today tomorrow or next week and it pisses me off to watch them run around with their heads held high. It pisses me off to watch them crack the Pies with nothing more than what Our full side has.


Either way, they have beaten us in the last two prelims. Games are decided by the scoreboard, not by opinion and they have made the GF on merit.

Yesterday's game - whilst not a 'great' game - was a terrific example of what a committed side who believe in a plan (and one another) can do. The Saints hung tough and probably could have pinched it in the end - they were just a desperate, hungry group of players who refused to concede and just had a belief that the tide would turn.

I don't enjoy their style of footy but their effort and desperation is to be admired.

[comrade]

Either way, they have beaten us in the last two prelims. Games are decided by the scoreboard, not by opinion and they have made the GF on merit.

Yesterday's game - whilst not a 'great' game - was a terrific example of what a committed side who believe in a plan (and one another) can do. The Saints hung tough and probably could have pinched it in the end - they were just a desperate, hungry group of players who refused to concede and just had a belief that the tide would turn.

I don't enjoy their style of footy but their effort and desperation is to be admired.

In your opinion, do their leaders stand up under pressure because they're guns or because they're mentally tough- i.e. does clutch football exist?

[comrade]

We laid 49 tackles in the Prelim.

St Kilda laid 100 yesterday.

That stat tells you a lot about the respective mindset of each playing group. If we want to take the next step, tackling has to be a high priority.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I couldnt see Boyd or Cross kicking that goal that Lenny did yesterday, 50 out under immense pressure. They have leaders who take the game by the scruff and bust a gut for their team mates. Until we get that, we arent even close.

I doubt st. Kilda would have had anyone who could do that either.

St, Kilda's big 3 are very, very good.

[mjp]

In your opinion, do their leaders stand up under pressure because they're guns or because they're mentally tough- i.e. does clutch football exist?

Under extreme pressure, you revert to your WORST habits.

To me, it means the Saints players are incredibly well drilled because their worst habits are pretty darn good. They tackle, chase and stick their head over the footy.

Those aren't things they do some of the time - they do them ALL of the time. It isn't clutch footy - for them it is just footy and that is why they are so consistent.

[LostDoggy]

We laid 49 tackles in the Prelim.

St Kilda laid 100 yesterday.

That stat tells you a lot about the respective mindset of each playing group. If we want to take the next step, tackling has to be a high priority.

Comrade, we used to be one of the hardest tackling teams.

I hate saying "We used to be"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :(

[comrade]

Under extreme pressure, you revert to your WORST habits.

To me, it means the Saints players are incredibly well drilled because their worst habits are pretty darn good. They tackle, chase and stick their head over the footy.

Those aren't things they do some of the time - they do them ALL of the time. It isn't clutch footy - for them it is just footy and that is why they are so consistent.

That's a great insight.

[bornadog]

Under extreme pressure, you revert to your WORST habits.

To me, it means the Saints players are incredibly well drilled because their worst habits are pretty darn good. They tackle, chase and stick their head over the footy.

Those aren't things they do some of the time - they do them ALL of the time. It isn't clutch footy - for them it is just footy and that is why they are so consistent.

Takes a lot of mental toughness to do that.

[EasternWest]

Under extreme pressure, you revert to your WORST habits.

To me, it means the Saints players are incredibly well drilled because their worst habits are pretty darn good. They tackle, chase and stick their head over the footy.

Those aren't things they do some of the time - they do them ALL of the time. It isn't clutch footy - for them it is just footy and that is why they are so consistent.

I don't want to get tied up in mjp love, but I think this is the best post I've read on WOOF.

[ledge]

Does that include Farren Ray?

[stevieg]

Does that include Farren Ray?

Ray's decision making and execution can be questioned but not his courage. He will back into a pack to attempt to take a mark and put his head over the ball when it is in dispute. St Kilda proves the importance of a very good coach. I think we have a more talented list overall but are we a better team? The answer over the last 2 years is unfortunately 'no'.

[Dry Rot]

I don't want to get tied up in mjp love, but I think this is the best post I've read on WOOF.

Agreed. Explains a few other things well, like when a young bottom 8 team against a really good team can get on top for a couple of quarters (playing out of their skins) but then revert to their worst under pressure is really bad and lose the game.

[comrade]

I don't want to get tied up in mjp love, but I think this is the best post I've read on WOOF.

Happy to take some of the credit for asking such a profound question.

:D

[LostDoggy]

I think across the board our skill level would be better, but the Saints have three game breaking superstars and play to a disciplined plan (as much as I hate that plan).

Sorry Rooner, love your passion, but can't agree.

But next year. Next year :).

Our skill level has been poor this year. We have continued to miss targets when under no pressure. Our clanger count has been way too high. Just can't do that at the highest level and expect to get away with it.

[LostDoggy]

Apart from what everyone else has said about tackling, contested footy, game plan and leadership, I don't believe we actually have a better team.

My view is that we don't have the players to win a flag. Against St Kilda we tried our best and threw everything at the them for a half, but because we lacked the quality to go up a gear when they did in the third, we were left chasing tail.

We need a stronger CHF. Just gotta find one somewhere. And I am not convinced in today's football that we can continue with both Boyd AND Cross in the middle. Need a Lennie Hayes to complement the mid field. Just gotta get more pace in there.

The forward line needs rejigging with more pace and crumbing 'magic'. We need to groom a replacement for Hall.

I can see us having to go down the ladder to get the players we need. Unfortunately going down the ladder won't help much over the next few years. A pity because we need a couple of no 1 draft choices into the team to add to the father-sons we are entitled to select.

Player like Hahn who lack leg speed or quick, accurate movement of the ball under pressure will have to be replaced if they can't develop.

[ledge]

Ray's decision making and execution can be questioned but not his courage. He will back into a pack to attempt to take a mark and put his head over the ball when it is in dispute. St Kilda proves the importance of a very good coach. I think we have a more talented list overall but are we a better team? The answer over the last 2 years is unfortunately 'no'.

The reason I ask is does this mean Lyon got something out of Ray Eade couldnt?
Was Eade playing Ray in a different role?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

The reason I ask is does this mean Lyon got something out of Ray Eade couldnt?
Was Eade playing Ray in a different role?

Different team game plans for a start.

We wanted Ray to run and carry the ball, then spot up targets. All of which are his weakness. At St. Kilda he rarely tries to make the play - he'll always chip sideways or give off a handball to the likes of Goddard, Montagna, Dal Santo, Hayes, Gilbert, Gram etc. It suits their style of play because they like to slow the play down, control the tempo and then move forward when the ball is in the 'right' hands. Too often - and because of our 'quick' gameplan - we end up with the ball in the wrong hands.

He's no better a player than he was with us, but he knows his role within the team and doesn't stray outside of that. It's great coaching by Lyon.

[LostDoggy]

Do you know why it annoys you so? Its because you wish our team could be like their's. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sorry Bob but I dont wish my team was like theirs. The Saints courage can never be questioned but I remember what we can do with everyone fit and we havnt been since the NAB Cup so I will repeat myself at FULL strength we are better. Nothing more, nothing less.

[chef]

Sorry Bob but I dont wish my team was like theirs. The Saints courage can never be questioned but I remember what we can do with everyone fit and we havnt been since the NAB Cup so I will repeat myself at FULL strength we are better. Nothing more, nothing less.

They were practice games and we weren't that convincing in a couple of them either. We were the forth best team this year, even at full strength.

[LostDoggy]

They were practice games and we weren't that convincing in a couple of them either. We were the forth best team this year, even at full strength.

Agreed, didn't we play Brisbane in round 1 on the NAB Cup and only won due to some interchange infringements/lucky late goals? I can't remember too well, but I'm pretty sure we very nearly didn't make it to week 2.

I think we were the 4th best team this year, we would have been pumped by either team yesterday.

[chef]

Agreed, didn't we play Brisbane in round 1 on the NAB Cup and only won due to some interchange infringements/lucky late goals? I can't remember too well, but I'm pretty sure we very nearly didn't make it to week 2.

I think we were the 4th best team this year, we would have been pumped by either team yesterday.

Port should have beaten us in the semi final.

[LostDoggy]

They were practice games and we weren't that convincing in a couple of them either. We were the forth best team this year, even at full strength.

Are you saying the Saints were half hearted in the Final?

[LostDoggy]

Sorry Bob but I dont wish my team was like theirs. The Saints courage can never be questioned but I remember what we can do with everyone fit and we havnt been since the NAB Cup so I will repeat myself at FULL strength we are better. Nothing more, nothing less.

St Kilda had Dal Santo, Gram & Kosi with question marks yesterday, they also played half the game without Gardiner & were still able to push Collingwood into a second GF.

We are clearly not as good as the saints, in my opinion.

[alwaysadog]

Either way, they have beaten us in the last two prelims. Games are decided by the scoreboard, not by opinion and they have made the GF on merit.

Yesterday's game - whilst not a 'great' game - was a terrific example of what a committed side who believe in a plan (and one another) can do. The Saints hung tough and probably could have pinched it in the end - they were just a desperate, hungry group of players who refused to concede and just had a belief that the tide would turn.

I don't enjoy their style of footy but their effort and desperation is to be admired.

Hit the nail on the head mjp. At the elite AFL level the difference between sides isn't ability, and I doubt it’s game plans or physical conditioning, it's that other aspect; what goes on between the ears, and a bit of luck, especially with injuries.

12 months ago those same players who now lack much according to some, had closed the intensity gap with the top sides. In fact in the preseason we went on and beat the aints and quite comfortably so; desperation and belief were our hall marks.

The question for me, if we are to improve, is what has gone wrong? We could blame a few players, for our underperformance, that’s all too easy and while emotionally satisfying for some ... it doesn’t answer the question.

Within a week of our triumph confidence had evaporated, all season we struggled especially against any side that showed belief, and while at season’s end we played two half games of reasonable finals football, we did so in at least one case because we had more class, but in both we played more in hope than belief, and when the hard question was asked we didn’t have sufficient reserves of that qualityso players looked hesitant (seen as slow and lacking toughness by some posters) while those who had faith in the aspects mjp identified, ran riot.

This analysis isn’t original, attempts to start a thread about it early in the season weren't appreciated. Then about two weeks later Bob Murphy in his Age column suggested that fear of failing was a problem the squad was struggling with, the very point that the earlier thread sought to explore. Then at season’s end Rocket identifies lack of belief as a major problem he was working on.

In some ways this is a startling situation given it occurs during our implementation of the leading teams package which is supposed to create higher sustained performance through greater honesty, bonding, trust, and mutual support within the team. All those qualities seemed to be in poor shape if not absent when the going got tough.

But then it’s a process and as anybody with experience in organisational change knows that a process and its outcomes are only as good as the values that drive it. Perhaps those with much greater insight into what goes on at the WO can provide insights about whether this has been identified and actioned and provide some hints about how it might be addressed.

[LostDoggy]

In your opinion, do their leaders stand up under pressure because they're guns or because they're mentally tough- i.e. does clutch football exist?

This something i have questioned about our group over the last few years, it's an area we seem to fall down at.

In the big games we seem to lack the mental toughness, to really get the job done.

How do we fix it?

[chef]

Are you saying the Saints were half hearted in the Final?

Yep, especially after Fisher did his ankle. They played it like it was a practice match.

[Mantis]

Yep, especially after Fisher did his ankle. They played it like it was a practice match.

They were also missing one L.Hayes who goes ok.... especially against us.

[LostDoggy]

People have been saying for years that our team or more to the point half the players are mentally weak. We can pull in therapist but I feel you either have that belief in one self or you don't.

Only thing to do is weed out those guys and move them on. People will wonder about a C.Brown going to GC and why they picked him up but makes sense to me as he has that belief.

[Ozza]

St.Kilda's mindset, committment and spirit is better than ours.
They also have 3 players (Riewoldt, Hayes and Goddard) who are better than any players on our list.

They are better than us right now...we need a good deal of improvement across the board to be as good as them. I also think they are better coached - but thats for another thread and another time!

I'd love to say it wasn't so - but my feeling is - if we were 24 points down at Half time against Collingwood - with our current side - we wouldn't have drawn...we probably would have lost by 50+.

Sorry if that seems a bit strong. But we are not a Grand Final team yet.

[LostDoggy]

St.Kilda's mindset, committment and spirit is better than ours.
They also have 3 players (Riewoldt, Hayes and Goddard) who are better than any players on our list.

They are better than us right now...we need a good deal of improvement across the board to be as good as them. I also think they are better coached - but thats for another thread and another time!

I'd love to say it wasn't so - but my feeling is - if we were 24 points down at Half time against Collingwood - with our current side - we wouldn't have drawn...we probably would have lost by 50+.
Sorry if that seems a bit strong. But we are not a Grand Final team yet.

Collingwood's ablity to play the game out is questionable. They have had some poor last quarters this year. It is false to assume they went easy in these games because they were in front. Their game plan takes so much out of them which they can't continue for the whole game.

We were 30 points down against the Swans and got up. There is nothing wrong with our endeavour, we have a fair dinkum crack but we can only do what we can with the cattle we have. And then they need to be fit at the right time. Collingwood have blessed in this department.

No, we have no Riewoldt or something similar. That is where we miss out right now.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

St.Kilda's mindset, committment and spirit is better than ours.
They also have 3 players (Riewoldt, Hayes and Goddard) who are better than any players on our list.

They are better than us right now...we need a good deal of improvement across the board to be as good as them. I also think they are better coached - but thats for another thread and another time!

I'd love to say it wasn't so - but my feeling is - if we were 24 points down at Half time against Collingwood - with our current side - we wouldn't have drawn...we probably would have lost by 50+.

Sorry if that seems a bit strong. But we are not a Grand Final team yet.

I agree with these sentiments. Very interesting to see how many reject players in the Saints line up who have fitted so well into their brand of football. We still need to find more desperate players like Cross and Picken of which we do not have enough with the mental capacity to perform consistently under pressure against quality teams. Our lack of depth is also a major concern with a number of our players getting regular games in spite of mediocre performances.

[Desipura]

Collingwood is one of the most evenly talented teams going around (similar to Geelong were).
St Kilda nearly pipped them on the weekend with the likes of Hayes & Goddard leading the way.

Riewoldt was good but far from their best on the weekend. They are not a one man team, if they were, they would not be playing off in a grand final.
The days you rely on one champion player to get you a flag are non existent

[Bulldog Revolution]

The huge difference between us and the saints is the consistency of what they do

We threw everything at them in the 2009 prelim final, in our best and most agressive performance of the year, and couldn't quite get the job done.

They consistently play at a much higher level which we can muster only a couple of times a year.

[LostDoggy]

This something i have questioned about our group over the last few years, it's an area we seem to fall down at.

In the big games we seem to lack the mental toughness, to really get the job done.

How do we fix it?

The biggest thing for me, is that we can fix it. Nobody can make Hahn run faster. Nobody can make Josh Hill a tough, tackling type of footballer. That's just not who they are, it's not their strengths or what they contribute to the team. You can't really do much about the ability of a player, outside of teaching and coaching them as best you can and hoping they pick it up and get better, but at this level, they either have it or they don't.

What we can fix, is the stuff between the ears. And this must be done by the coach, and to the coach by the board. I've said a few times in other threads, any organisation change must be driven from the top, not the bottom.

Part of that is weeding out the hackers from the slackers. You look at each member of the team, write down their strengths — are they the strengths we need? Write down their weaknesses — are those weaknesses a liability we can live with? Honestly assess each member of the team and make the hard calls, and make every decision about results. Players' attitude will follow suit.

But a coaching panel and board who play favourites and look at players with skewed perspectives cannot achieve this.

I remember how shocked the football world was when St Kilda sacked Grant Thomas after making the finals. Who's laughing now?

P.S. I'm not necessarily suggesting a change of coach, just hoping that all avenues are looked at, and they don't just address the easy questions.

[azabob]

But a coaching panel and board who play favourites and look at players with skewed perspectives cannot achieve this.

I remember how shocked the football world was when St Kilda sacked Grant Thomas after making the finals. Who's laughing now?

P.S. I'm not necessarily suggesting a change of coach, just hoping that all avenues are looked at, and they don't just address the easy questions.

This was a huge call by the St.Kilda board and good on them for making the hard call, and they stood by their man even when the year after they missed the finals.

[Greystache]

This was a huge call by the St.Kilda board and good on them for making the hard call, and they stood by their man even when the year after they missed the finals.

It certainly seems to have been the right call, but you would have to think a factor in the decision making process was personal issues between coach and president unrelated to the teams performance.

[alwaysadog]

It certainly seems to have been the right call, but you would have to think a factor in the decision making process was personal issues between coach and president unrelated to the teams performance.

Or in the end did they both point in the same direction?

[alwaysadog]

St.Kilda's mindset, committment and spirit is better than ours.


How this comes about... and how can we achieve it seem to me to be the questions we need to address.

[Greystache]

Or in the end did they both point in the same direction?

Given one fired the other it's more likely they were pointing in exactly the opposite directions.

[alwaysadog]

Given one fired the other it's more likely they were pointing in exactly the opposite directions.

The point I was making was didn't they both point to the need for the coach to be dispensed with.

[LostDoggy]

End of 09 season we just needed to improve mainly in finishing off games. (Big example was our rnd. 22 game with collingwood). But we went backwards in that area and so many others. I.e. Tackling, basic kicking, etc.

[Mofra]

The biggest thing for me, is that we can fix it. Nobody can make Hahn run faster. Nobody can make Josh Hill a tough, tackling type of footballer.
His average no of tackles at AFL level this year puts him 6th on our list. More of an indictment of other players than support for Josh.