The Top Shelf - bare?

[Bulldog Revolution]

Watching the finals one of the things that has stood out for me is that we have few absolute guns (stars of the competition) who are consistently able to determine the outcomes of games.

The thread on Goddard got me thinking that its not just that we dont have someone of Goddards shape and size, its that we dont have anyone who can consistently influence games like him.

Cooney and Lake are perhaps our closest, but do they need to go to another level for us to win a flag. Can Cooney get to the level of an Ablett/Swan/Judd? Is Lake at the level of Scarlett in his best years?

Griffen and Boyd are perhaps a rung back, respected by the competition but dont consistently decide big games. Can Boyd get to the level of Hayes?
Can Griffen get to the level of Hodge/Goddard?

Is Higgins capable of becoming a genuine top liner?

[Desipura]

Watching the finals one of the things that has stood out for me is that we have few absolute guns (stars of the competition) who are consistently able to determine the outcomes of games.

The thread on Goddard got me thinking that its not just that we dont have someone of Goddards shape and size, its that we dont have anyone who can consistently influence games like him.

Cooney and Lake are perhaps our closest, but do they need to go to another level for us to win a flag. Can Cooney get to the level of an Ablett/Swan/Judd? Is Lake at the level of Scarlett in his best years?

Griffen and Boyd are perhaps a rung back, respected by the competition but dont consistently decide big games. Can Boyd get to the level of Hayes?
Can Griffen get to the level of Hodge/Goddard?

Is Higgins capable of becoming a genuine top liner?
Cooney could do it. He has shown when pushed forward he can kick multiple goals, kicked 4 against Melbourne a few seasons back.
Can he do it on the big stage? I hope to find out in 12 months.

[Mofra]

I'm not too sure Cooney has another level to go to; he is already A grade but I'm not banking on him being the difference.

I think Griffen has the ability to exceed Cooney - he has the burst & is untackleable (shaddup it is too a word) at full flight, and he just keeps finding it. The two of them will be a sight to behold if they are both flying at once.

I don't expect Grant to have such a poor finals series next year either.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Cooney could do it. He has shown when pushed forward he can kick multiple goals, kicked 4 against Melbourne a few seasons back.
Can he do it on the big stage? I hope to find out in 12 months.

Coons has kicked 5 twice. Once against Adelaide in '06 and once against Sydney in '08.

However, I don't think Cooney has been as damagaing as he was in 2008. Thought he had a bit of a disappointing year by his standards this season. He's developed more of an inside game since his Brownlow year, which whilst is very good, I'd like to see more run and carry.

In regards to the OP, Lake has been phenomenal the last 3 years and can't be asked to do any more.

Cooney, Griffen, Higgins and Ward are the four we need to really 'take over' from next year onwards.

[Bulldog Joe]

I think Lake and Cooney are capable and also believe Griffen can provide it.

What we need is to have them fit and firing at the right time and not carrying injury into those important games.

I also believe Callan Ward has shown that he will be able to do the things required.

If we could have a full list in 2011 with those 4 at the top of their game ... well we would be a huge chance.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Cooney, Griffen, Higgins and Ward are the four we need to really 'take over' from next year onwards.

Ward is the other one I wondered about, whether he could actually become top shelf

And I'd meant to ask whether people see Ward as perhaps most likely to become our Lenny Hayes type enging room.

You shouldn't go on one game, but he was super in the prelim against St Kilda, and he does have the bravado and swagger of a star - does he have the game to do it consistently? Will he ever get seriously fit?

[Scorlibo]

I think Lake may be excluded from this topic to an extent, he has propelled himself to become a very well respected player out of the backline, and he does consistently influence games with those trademark heroic marks. He is better than Scarlett has ever been imo.

The big 3: Cooney, Griffen, Higgins.

Cooney just needs to add that little bit extra to his game to raise himself to the heights of Ablett, Swan, Judd, Hayes etc. I want him and Griffen to both start believing how good they could be, to take charge and say, "I'm the best player in this team, so give me the ball", and I want teammates to look for them, to shepherd for them.

Higgins, well, he looks so self-conscious out there. I never see him doing something as undignified as sucking in the big ones, or getting really pumped up after a goal, or running full-pelt, or doing anything really which implies that he's giving the game his all. Drop him from the leadership group and make him earn the right to look like there's something permanently shoved up his *ss.

Outside of these 3 I think Ward and Murphy can both become players who influence games regularly. If either can recapture what they showed at various points during the finals series throughout 2011, the flag will be well within our grasp again.

[AndrewP6]

. Drop him from the leadership group and make him earn the right to look like there's something permanently shoved up his *ss.

That look would have to be described as "extremely uncomfortable" :)



Outside of these 3 I think Ward and Murphy can both become players who influence games regularly. If either can recapture what they showed at various points during the finals series throughout 2011, the flag will be well within our grasp again.

I hope Murph can maintain the sort of form you're referring to, I just fear we've seen his best. Injuries have made it harder for him, but it seems to me that he's up and down a lot. Hope he disproves this in 2011.

[FrediKanoute]

Cooney - just needs to believe that he belongs in esteemed company as Judd, Ablett etc. If he gets his self belief right he will be as good! Also the last couple of years he has become a sensational creater of goals. He probably is kicking less himself but his goal assists are right up there.

Griffin - similar to Cooney, but I think is starting to believe. Doesn't have the burst capacity of Cooney, but in full flight is unstoppable. I am lokking forward to next year!

Higgins - injuries have ******** him, but pound for pound he is probably one of the most skillful players on our list. When fit he has time, much like Murphy always seems to have time. Importantly too, he is probably the best shot for goal out of these three. I expect him to really step up if he can get his body right.

Ward - 2010 he spent most of the year injured, but took a massive step forward in the Prelim. I think he can be top shelp. he is probably the most physical of these guys, so a Lenny Hayes comparison (though he is a better kick) is not unkind.

[AndrewP6]

Griffin - similar to Cooney, but I think is starting to believe. Doesn't have the burst capacity of Cooney, but in full flight is unstoppable. I am lokking forward to next year!


Griffen is a far better player ;)

Agree with pretty much all of your post...

[LostDoggy]

Coons has already reached his potential, as has Lake and Murph -- all A-grade if they can stay on the park, but not once-in-a-lifetime types, although Lake is pretty unique. Bazz is our other A-grader, and Huddo is also A-grade on 2010 form.

Ward BEST CASE would be a Hayes type, but looks more likely to turn out a Luke Ball type with his ball winning nous but limited kicking range, which is not bad at all, but not quite bona-fide superstar.

Griff is the only one already in the senior team who has a bit more to give, but not much more in finals, I don't think -- the main thing he can improve is his kicking on the run, but other than that he's already pretty close to his potential.

Grant, Jones and Roughhead are the three youngsters that look to have the tools to be absolutely elite, but a lot have to go right in the next few years, some of us thought Tom Williams could be elite, but it looks like he'll have to settle with being a very important structural cog.

In direct response to the OP, we have become a lot more even as a team, but are definitely missing the three or four top-liners the likes of Granty and West. Johnno and Aker were, but had lost it by this year. Gilbs is the big disappointment here -- looked like he could go on to become a real weapon, but has just disappeared as a match-winning factor.

[Ozza]

Coons has already reached his potential, as has Lake and Murph -- all A-grade if they can stay on the park, but not once-in-a-lifetime types, although Lake is pretty unique. Bazz is our other A-grader, and Huddo is also A-grade on 2010 form.

Ward BEST CASE would be a Hayes type, but looks more likely to turn out a Luke Ball type with his ball winning nous but limited kicking range, which is not bad at all, but not quite bona-fide superstar.

Griff is the only one already in the senior team who has a bit more to give, but not much more in finals, I don't think -- the main thing he can improve is his kicking on the run, but other than that he's already pretty close to his potential.

Grant, Jones and Roughhead are the three youngsters that look to have the tools to be absolutely elite, but a lot have to go right in the next few years, some of us thought Tom Williams could be elite, but it looks like he'll have to settle with being a very important structural cog.

In direct response to the OP, we have become a lot more even as a team, but are definitely missing the three or four top-liners the likes of Granty and West. Johnno and Aker were, but had lost it by this year. Gilbs is the big disappointment here -- looked like he could go on to become a real weapon, but has just disappeared as a match-winning factor.

Agree with all of that except for Ward's comparison with Luke Ball. I think Ward has got more line breaking ability and is a long kick - and definitely more a 'kicking' than 'handballing' player.

Absolutely agree with the rest.

[stefoid]

Wish Coon could get back to his early 08 fitness. I reckon thats about the only time we have seen him 100% fit and he was simple awesome through that period.

[Scorlibo]

Coons has already reached his potential, as has Lake and Murph -- all A-grade if they can stay on the park, but not once-in-a-lifetime types, although Lake is pretty unique. Bazz is our other A-grader, and Huddo is also A-grade on 2010 form.

Ward BEST CASE would be a Hayes type, but looks more likely to turn out a Luke Ball type with his ball winning nous but limited kicking range, which is not bad at all, but not quite bona-fide superstar.

Griff is the only one already in the senior team who has a bit more to give, but not much more in finals, I don't think -- the main thing he can improve is his kicking on the run, but other than that he's already pretty close to his potential.

Grant, Jones and Roughhead are the three youngsters that look to have the tools to be absolutely elite, but a lot have to go right in the next few years, some of us thought Tom Williams could be elite, but it looks like he'll have to settle with being a very important structural cog.

In direct response to the OP, we have become a lot more even as a team, but are definitely missing the three or four top-liners the likes of Granty and West. Johnno and Aker were, but had lost it by this year. Gilbs is the big disappointment here -- looked like he could go on to become a real weapon, but has just disappeared as a match-winning factor.

I disagree on Cooney, I don't think we have seen the best of him, he has the potential to be the best player in the competition, so he hasn't reached his potential yet.

If Ward turns out like Ball I wouldn't be at all disappointed, I really rate him and think he is one of the biggest reasons for the Pies' success this year. Ward's kicking range is pretty massive, bigger than Lenny's.

[Bulldog Revolution]

I disagree on Cooney, I don't think we have seen the best of him, he has the potential to be the best player in the competition, so he hasn't reached his potential yet.



Some posters have suggested that for Cooney the issue is self belief. I tend to believe he needs to keep working on his skills to continue to polish his game. His work rate is now very good but I dont think he is punishing with his skills as other top liners in the competition.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Some posters have suggested that for Cooney the issue is self belief. I tend to believe he needs to keep working on his skills to continue to polish his game. His work rate is now very good but I dont think he is punishing with his skills as other top liners in the competition.

Yep - definitely agree with this.

Particularly this season, where he often rushed his disposal. Room for improvement left in Cooney IMO. He should be a 25-30 goal kicking mid too.

[LostDoggy]

Agree with all of that except for Ward's comparison with Luke Ball. I think Ward has got more line breaking ability and is a long kick - and definitely more a 'kicking' than 'handballing' player.

Absolutely agree with the rest.

I agree, I think ward's hip or groin injury affected his kicking this year, he may have been playing with a jab in that area. As a junior he would take the kick in duties at the jets and use his kicking to set up play from the backline.

If he gets his body right his kicking could become elite IMO

[LostDoggy]

Coons has already reached his potential, as has Lake and Murph -- all A-grade if they can stay on the park, but not once-in-a-lifetime types, although Lake is pretty unique. Bazz is our other A-grader, and Huddo is also A-grade on 2010 form.


Lake is up there with the best of them. In the history of the game, no full-back (including Silvagni and Scarlett) has won 40 possesions in one game.

No Full-back in the modern era has backed himself and succeeded in consistently out-marking key forwards.

He is unquestionably elite.

[comrade]

Lake is up there with the best of them. In the history of the game, no full-back (including Silvagni and Scarlett) has won 40 possesions in one game.

No Full-back in the modern era has backed himself and succeeded in consistently out-marking key forwards.

He is unquestionably elite.

I agree. Lake is definitely a once in a lifetime full back.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Lake is up there with the best of them. In the history of the game, no full-back (including Silvagni and Scarlett) has won 40 possesions in one game.

No Full-back in the modern era has backed himself and succeeded in consistently out-marking key forwards.

He is unquestionably elite.

David Dench changed full back. He was the first full back who left his man to run up the ground and attack. I saw him kick 2 v Hawthorn in an era when a fullback could go his whole career and never kick one at all.

Lake is changing full back now just as Dench did 40 years ago. No other fullback has ever backed himself to outmark his opponent so frequently and pull it off.

Thinking back to the number of times I got a blast from a coach for not punching from behind. I thought I was undisciplined,but really, I was just playing in the wrong era.

[LostDoggy]

I did say Lake was 'pretty unique', and A-grade IS elite (I mean, there isn't really an empirical scale of "goodness"), but I don't think I could quite put him in the category of 'generational' player. His last two years have been unquestionably outstanding, but the few brainfades that he's had (undoubtedly fewer than previous years) still hold him back from being that 'best player of his generation' category. He's also fallen off at times in big games (although his first half in this year's PF was outstanding) and opponents like Fev and Bazz have kicked bags on him as recently as last year (although this is as much due to the lack of midfield pressure as anything Brian's done wrong).

Brian is unquestionably elite, though, and a brilliant, brilliant full-back.

[LostDoggy]

I was just playing in the wrong era.

A man out of his time. That's my excuse as well.

[EasternWest]

A man out of his time. That's my excuse as well.

You guys are lucky. I only had a complete lack of speed, skill and timing to blame. At least your failings were generational:).

[Go_Dogs]

At least your failings were generational:).

Besides of course the fact that Lake is the ONLY player around who should try to mark from behind. (Well, there are a couple of others, but not many) :D

[Sedat]

Watching the finals one of the things that has stood out for me is that we have few absolute guns (stars of the competition) who are consistently able to determine the outcomes of games.

The thread on Goddard got me thinking that its not just that we dont have someone of Goddards shape and size, its that we dont have anyone who can consistently influence games like him.

Cooney and Lake are perhaps our closest, but do they need to go to another level for us to win a flag. Can Cooney get to the level of an Ablett/Swan/Judd? Is Lake at the level of Scarlett in his best years?

Griffen and Boyd are perhaps a rung back, respected by the competition but dont consistently decide big games. Can Boyd get to the level of Hayes?
Can Griffen get to the level of Hodge/Goddard?

Is Higgins capable of becoming a genuine top liner?
Good thread topic BR, and an extension of this thread from the start of the season:
http://woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=7122

I think the GF proved that you need your top echelon stars to be a competitive force deep in September - I think we have 3-4 players that have the capability to move into that superstar bracket (the usual suspects already mentioned) but only Griff and Lake have shown this consistently in September. Coons at 100% walks into this elite territory, and Bob is not far behind either when he is 100% healthy.

[LostDoggy]

Good thread topic BR, and an extension of this thread from the start of the season:
http://woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=7122

I think the GF proved that you need your top echelon stars to be a competitive force deep in September - I think we have 3-4 players that have the capability to move into that superstar bracket (the usual suspects already mentioned) but only Griff and Lake have shown this consistently in September. Coons at 100% walks into this elite territory, and Bob is not far behind either when he is 100% healthy.

Cooney wouldve destroyed the Saints in the 2nd quarter of the P/F and our season wouldve went a week longer.......We just have to wait another year.

[Ghost Dog]

Coons has kicked 5 twice. Once against Adelaide in '06 and once against Sydney in '08.


In regards to the OP, Lake has been phenomenal the last 3 years and can't be asked to do any more.

.

Good point. How about Huddo and Picken? I think they have been really good this year.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Good point. How about Huddo and Picken? I think they have been really good this year.

Very good players but not elite. Both aren't that far off it though, and Picken still has plenty of years left in the tank.