Fantasia and Dalrymple

[Jasper]

Am interested in knowing more about the guys driving our list management.

I might be a little ignorant, and am hoping people have a bit more information on Fantasia and Dalrymple's roles with us and their overall careers. From what I've seen, it appears Fantasia is taking a more leading role this year, whreeas Clayton had the lead in the past.

Is Dalrymple the list manager doing trades and recruiting or is he just recruiting in the drafts?

Is Fantasia doing trades, and having sign off on drafting?

At present am a little edgy about how things will go, only luke warm on the Vezpremi - Everitt trade, am worried we will overpay for Sherman, and get minimal return for Minson and Hill.

Interested in feedback on Fantasia and Dalrymple's records.

1 - When was Fantasia in charge of the Crows recruiting - was he guy who did the Carey trade that saw the Crows get Carey for year or two for Kane Johnson (and miss Wells). Seem to recall Adelaide burning some high draft picks for so so players (Clarke?)
2 - 6 players out of the top 35 draft picks didn't play AFL level last year, two were ours, none of our draft picks played AFL last year, there may be extenuating circumstances but what is Dalrymple's background?
3 - Fantasia seems to have done some big trades in the past and some ordinary drafting at the top end with the exception of Burton? He still got some decent players in the lower end (Tippett, Knights), but it seems a lot of Adelaide's guns were recruited prior to him starting out, is that right?. Fantasia seems to present okay, but is he a good list manager and a good negotiator (if that is what he is doing)?

[AndrewP6]

This from the WB site at the time of Fanta's appointment gives a bit of info on him, and his role. Not entirely certain how much it's changed since then...
http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/Season2007/News/NewsArticle/tabid/4112/Default.aspx?newsId=54096

This is the current info on him from the site (although how 'current' is anyone's guess! It does have him under the "Coaches" tab :eek:

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/TheClub/Coaches/CoachProfile/tabid/8644/Default.aspx?coachId=193

Not a heap on Dalrymple

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/TheClub/Coaches/CoachProfile/tabid/8644/Default.aspx?coachId=193

[LostDoggy]

Am interested in knowing more about the guys driving our list management.

I might be a little ignorant, and am hoping people have a bit more information on Fantasia and Dalrymple's roles with us and their overall careers. From what I've seen, it appears Fantasia is taking a more leading role this year, whreeas Clayton had the lead in the past.

Is Dalrymple the list manager doing trades and recruiting or is he just recruiting in the drafts?

Is Fantasia doing trades, and having sign off on drafting?

At present am a little edgy about how things will go, only luke warm on the Vezpremi - Everitt trade, am worried we will overpay for Sherman, and get minimal return for Minson and Hill.

Interested in feedback on Fantasia and Dalrymple's records.

1 - When was Fantasia in charge of the Crows recruiting - was he guy who did the Carey trade that saw the Crows get Carey for year or two for Kane Johnson (and miss Wells). Seem to recall Adelaide burning some high draft picks for so so players (Clarke?)
2 - 6 players out of the top 35 draft picks didn't play AFL level last year, two were ours, none of our draft picks played AFL last year, there may be extenuating circumstances but what is Dalrymple's background?
3 - Fantasia seems to have done some big trades in the past and some ordinary drafting at the top end with the exception of Burton? He still got some decent players in the lower end (Tippett, Knights), but it seems a lot of Adelaide's guns were recruited prior to him starting out, is that right?. Fantasia seems to present okay, but is he a good list manager and a good negotiator (if that is what he is doing)?

Ayers was the driver in getting Carey

[Mofra]

Wasn't Dalrymple the TAC u18 stats & data guru of a few years ago? I believe that was touted as an advantage when we signed him up.

[GVGjr]

Dalrymple, Fantasia and Eade all have a role in recruitment.

Eade and Fantasia would identify gaps in the list. Dalrymple would then be asked if it could be covered in the draft. Where that can not be covered Eade and Fantasia would look at trade opportunities which is what they are doing with vigor at the moment.

This highlights two things to me.
1) we need a list manager
2) we haven't been active enough in the last two seasons at turning the list over.

[LostDoggy]

Dalrymple, Fantasia and Eade all have a role in recruitment.

Eade and Fantasia would identify gaps in the list. Dalrymple would then be asked if it could be covered in the draft. Where that can not be covered Eade and Fantasia would look at trade opportunities which is what they are doing with vigor at the moment.

This highlights two things to me.
1) we need a list manager
2) we haven't been active enough in the last two seasons at turning the list over.

Surely this is a task within Dalrymple's role.

[DOG GOD]

Dalrymple, Fantasia and Eade all have a role in recruitment.

Eade and Fantasia would identify gaps in the list. Dalrymple would then be asked if it could be covered in the draft. Where that can not be covered Eade and Fantasia would look at trade opportunities which is what they are doing with vigor at the moment.

This highlights two things to me.
1) we need a list manager
2) we haven't been active enough in the last two seasons at turning the list over.

How active can we afford to be this year GVGjr?
Gone: Aker, Johnno, Eagle, Callan,
Maybe delisted: Hahn, Thorne, Tiller, Boumann
Traded: Everitt, Hill, Stack, Minson

Would that be too many to turn over this year? and that would still leave Markovic and Mulligan on the list who wont play next year anyway.

Thoughts?

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Dalrymple, Fantasia and Eade all have a role in recruitment.

Eade and Fantasia would identify gaps in the list. Dalrymple would then be asked if it could be covered in the draft. Where that can not be covered Eade and Fantasia would look at trade opportunities which is what they are doing with vigor at the moment.

This highlights two things to me.
1) we need a list manager
2) we haven't been active enough in the last two seasons at turning the list over.

We can turn our list over but what we have to offer in return means our pick ups are still questionable. Collingwood led the way this year in the recruitment of two quality players in Jolly and Luke Ball which topped off their already strong list. Sherman could be alright but that is still questionable as is Djerrkura and Veszpremi who are still largely unproven at senior AFL level. The limitations in our salary cap doesn't leave much room for recruiting quality players.

[Mitcha]

Wasn't Dalrymple the TAC u18 stats & data guru of a few years ago? I believe that was touted as an advantage when we signed him up.
That would be Aidrian Caruso.

[comrade]

That would be Aidrian Caruso.

If he isn't poached, I wouldn't be suprised if he was made recruiting manager in the future.

[Go_Dogs]

Surely this is a task within Dalrymple's role.

At the moment he probably plays a role in that area, but I agree with GVGjr that it's time to look at a specific list manager's role and I think have an independent person who isn't involved in the talent identification aspect, at least in the traditional, recruiting manager way.

[GVGjr]

How active can we afford to be this year GVGjr?
Gone: Aker, Johnno, Eagle, Callan,
Maybe delisted: Hahn, Thorne, Tiller, Boumann
Traded: Everitt, Hill, Stack, Minson

Would that be too many to turn over this year? and that would still leave Markovic and Mulligan on the list who wont play next year anyway.

Thoughts?

It looks like we have to make 8 or 9 changes and that probably means keeping a couple of very lucky players.

Normally during the trade period we look at just one player and perhaps a filler but this year if things would have gone our way better we might have got 4 players which is very different to our normal approach.

I'd ask how many of the players you nominated should have been kept on at the end of last year?

In my opinion 12 months ago that we didn't cut into the list hard enough especially given the likely retirements to come. We traded for Hall and added just Howard, Tutt, Markovic and Thorne to the senior list.
The year before that we drafted just Cordy, Roughead and Jones. That's not a lot of changes.

We are now searching for pace but the signs were there at least 12 months back that the list was too old and we had almost certainly committed to two great father son selections that weren't known as genuine speedsters. On top of that we also knew the coming drafts were going to be heavily compromised by the new sides.

[GVGjr]

Surely this is a task within Dalrymple's role.

There is a difference between a list manager and a recruiting manager.
The recruiting manager evaluates the talent for the drafts and the list manager sets the strategy, handles the financials and the potential trades etc

Whilst they need to work together very closely I see them as very different positions.

[DOG GOD]

It looks like we have to make 8 or 9 changes and that probably means keeping a couple of very lucky players.

Normally during the trade period we look at just one player and perhaps a filler but this year if things would have gone our way better we might have got 4 players which is very different to our normal approach.

I'd ask how many of the players you nominated should have been kept on at the end of last year?

In my opinion 12 months ago that we didn't cut into the list hard enough especially given the likely retirements to come. We traded for Hall and added just Howard, Tutt, Markovic and Thorne to the senior list.
The year before that we drafted just Cordy, Roughead and Jones. That's not a lot of changes.

We are now searching for pace but the signs were there at least 12 months back that the list was too old and we had almost certainly committed to two great father son selections that weren't known as genuine speedsters. On top of that we also knew the coming drafts were going to be heavily compromised by the new sides.

Well certainly Eagle and Aker shouldnt have been given another year which wouldve brought in 2 young kids (with hopefully pace).

I also think our drafting last year had a lot to be desired. We picked Thorne (yes with a late pick) but it was a big gamble that hasnt paid off. We picked Markovic, a guy who was drafted ONLY if lake went down injured. So why not rookie him.

I think we have really dropped the ball over the last 2 drafts id say. This draft will be interesting especially considering we wont have a pick until around 40+

[Mantis]

I think we have really dropped the ball over the last 2 drafts id say. This draft will be interesting especially considering we wont have a pick until around 40+

Yet if he we had 2 picks inside the top 40 and had picked up 2 players with the credentials of Wallis & Libba we would be doing cartwheels.

Agree on the first point, lets hope Howard & Tutt turn out ok.

[OLD SCRAGGer]

Dalrymple, Fantasia and Eade all have a role in recruitment.

Eade and Fantasia would identify gaps in the list. Dalrymple would then be asked if it could be covered in the draft. Where that can not be covered Eade and Fantasia would look at trade opportunities which is what they are doing with vigor at the moment.

This highlights two things to me.
1) we need a list manager
2) we haven't been active enough in the last two seasons at turning the list over.

I've heard on fairly good authority that we will de-list up to 12 players (that includes retirements, trades etc...)

[G-Mo77]

[/B]

I've heard on fairly good authority that we will de-list up to 12 players (that includes retirements, trades etc...)

Want to fire off a list. I can come up with about 6 - 7 names.

Johnno
Eagle
Troll
Stack (Freebie to WC)
Thorne
Callan

Hahn??

Any others

[Mantis]

Want to fire off a list. I can come up with about 6 - 7 names.

Johnno
Eagle
Troll
Stack (Freebie to WC)
Thorne
Callan

Hahn??

Any others

Rose & Daniels would be included in the figure even though they are rookie listed players.

Tiller would be on shaky ground as well.

We probably won't keep all of Boumann, Mulligan & Markovic too.

[G-Mo77]

Rose & Daniels would be included in the figure even though they are rookie listed players.

Tiller would be on shaky ground as well.

We probably won't keep all of Boumann, Mulligan & Markovic too.

Isn't he under contract? I thought I heard Pask say that he will stay if he can't get to another club via trade week. Or was that just wishfull thinking on his managers behalf?

[Mofra]

We are now searching for pace but the signs were there at least 12 months back that the list was too old and we had almost certainly committed to two great father son selections that weren't known as genuine speedsters. On top of that we also knew the coming drafts were going to be heavily compromised by the new sides.
We also went very tall in 2008 knowing we had Wallis & Libba to add to the mix, and last year we seemed to put a premium on footskills with Howard & Tutt as our first two picks.
I think it's easier to add pace to a list than it is to add quality talls and talent.

[soupman]

Isn't he under contract? I thought I heard Pask say that he will stay if he can't get to another club via trade week. Or was that just wishfull thinking on his managers behalf?

I think thats Pask just trying not to burn all of Tiller's options.

[GVGjr]

I've heard on fairly good authority that we will de-list up to 12 players (that includes retirements, trades etc...)
Which supports my view that we managed the list poorly over the last two years.

That's a huge over correction.

[comrade]

Which supports my view that we managed the list poorly over the last two years.

That's a huge over correction.

Interesting that Rose was quoted in the Sun that if we had more cash we'd invest in a list manager, so it's clearly a concern at the Club.

[Sedat]

Which supports my view that we managed the list poorly over the last two years.

That's a huge over correction.
It is, but what is going out provided very little in terms of collective on-field output in 2010 (and would have been even less in 2011). You're right your assertion that we should have done more pruning in both 2008 and 2009, but better late than never.

[Desipura]

Quote from Fanasia re DJ
“Nathan is someone we have had our eye on for a while now," Bulldogs football manager James Fantasia said.

Quote from Fantasia re Vesper
“Patrick is a player we have kept our eyes on for a while now and we are very excited to get him down to the club," Bulldogs football manager James Fantasia said.


Come up with a new line James!

[soupman]

Attention all fringe small players. James Fantasia is watching you.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Quote from Fanasia re DJ
“Nathan is someone we have had our eye on for a while now," Bulldogs football manager James Fantasia said.

Quote from Fantasia re Vesper
“Patrick is a player we have kept our eyes on for a while now and we are very excited to get him down to the club," Bulldogs football manager James Fantasia said.


Come up with a new line James!

We have been watching Vesper far more closely - we've used both eyes.

[Desipura]

We have been watching Vesper far more closely - we've used both eyes.
I hope they watched him close enough to know he has had weight issues in the past.

[comrade]

I hope they watched him close enough to know he has had weight issues in the past.

So did Hodgey.

[Desipura]

So did Hodgey.
So did Allen Jackovich

[Greystache]

So did Hodgey.

So did Pavlich

[Desipura]

So did Pavlich
No he was not. I watched him play in the SA vs Vic VFL Grand Final before he was drafted, definately was not over weight then,

[GVGjr]

It is, but what is going out provided very little in terms of collective on-field output in 2010 (and would have been even less in 2011). You're right your assertion that we should have done more pruning in both 2008 and 2009, but better late than never.
Reactive rather than proactive shouldn't be regarded as good management though.

[Greystache]

No he was not. I watched him play in the SA vs Vic VFL Grand Final before he was drafted, definately was not over weight then,

You need to watch it again, he was tubby as you like. The reason he slipped to number 4 in the draft was his fitness and body shape. On The Couch showed video of him in the under 18's a while back and looked like Cameron Ling when he was drafted.

[bornadog]

I hope they watched him close enough to know he has had weight issues in the past.

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/mmsalih/lally.jpg

[Sedat]

Reactive rather than proactive shouldn't be regarded as good management though.
Agreed - we botched our list management at the end of last season especially.

[LostDoggy]

Only one way to go.

Fix it. I think they're doing that now.

[GVGjr]

Only one way to go.

Fix it. I think they're doing that now.
Remains to be seen. We have a history of not being able to make the hard call.

[Scorlibo]

Clearly the club did identify a couple of areas which we would soon have deficiencies - quick small forwards and key defenders - a fair way out. In 2006 we drafted Hill, Stack, Harbrow and Lynch with a view to at least a couple coming on to fill the small forward void. As it turns out only one of them came on and that was as a running defender. In 2007 we drafted Grant, Boumann and Mulligan, in 2008 we drafted Jones and in 2009 we drafted Markovic, whilst also already having Everitt on our list. It would have been fair for one to suggest that amongst these players one would come on as a key defender.

Maybe they left too much to chance with the quality/type of players they recruited, but they clearly were well aware of the state of the list.

[Twodogs]

Which supports my view that we managed the list poorly over the last two years.

That's a huge over correction.


If Aker and Johnno had been even half as effective in '10 as they had been in '09 would you be saying the same thing? As it stands they had unbelievably poor seasons and had almost a negative affect on team perfomance.


BUT if Johnno hadnt been injured and Aker had been a little more circumspect and mature, really played some good footy, Hahn had continued his preseason cup form and Eagleton had a better year and we'd perfrmed better as a team then we'd all be saing that eade and the MC were godlike genius's that had led us out of the desert into the promised land.

I'm comfortable with the choices we made at the end of last year. Playing it safe and giving those guys a chance to see if they could make a better forward line with Hall was a chance worth taking I reckon.

As it stands even if we have to lose a heap of experience at once I'm not that fussed. It was the most experienced guys who ultimatly let us down this year and we'll lose nothing in onfield perormance with their departure.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

We also went very tall in 2008 knowing we had Wallis & Libba to add to the mix, and last year we seemed to put a premium on footskills with Howard & Tutt as our first two picks.
I think it's easier to add pace to a list than it is to add quality talls and talent.

IMHO I think the recruiting has been OK, With a little luck we could have gone all the way this year. The only change is I would not have kept Eagleton and it was shocking the Jonno year.

This year the couple of runners and couple of mids will just take the pressure off a little if Hahn & Cross don't get up week in week out.

[GVGjr]

If Aker and Johnno had been even half as effective in '10 as they had been in '09 would you be saying the same thing? As it stands they had unbelievably poor seasons and had almost a negative affect on team perfomance.



12 months ago I was a strong advocate that we need to cut into the list a lot deeper than we did.
A small sample of reasons were:

- Knowing that we were adding a 32yo forward to an already old list.
- Maintaining Eagleton when there was question marks on how Johnson and Akermanis could be managed during the season and the surprising upgrade of Mulligan to the senior list when we had the chance to keep another season as a rookie.
- The fact that the year prior we only drafted 3 youngsters.
- Knowing that the next 2 seasons were heavily compromised drafts.
I could go on.

To me, not cutting deeper was very poor list management.

[Raw Toast]

12 months ago I was a strong advocate that we need to cut into the list a lot deeper than we did.

You were GvGjr, but most of the others of us didn't see it (including me).

I think the biggest mistake was in keeping Eagleton. He'd had a shocker against the Saints (admittedly after being close to bog against the Lions), but the players wanted to keep him on I think, they took paycuts and sentiment probably got mixed into the judgment as to whether or not to keep him on. It was a tricky situation at the time.

The elevation of Mulligan was maybe even more questionable. He hadn't showed he deserved it and it did take away another pick from us.

Even with hindsight though, I've got no problems with keeping Johnson and Aker on. Johnno was very good last year and that *#@$#@$ golf cart incident should never have happened. And Aker was really good for most of last year as well.

So we could have had two more pretty late picks. Every extra player counts, but we'd still be cutting very hard into the list this year anyway.

[GVGjr]

So we could have had two more pretty late picks. Every extra player counts, but we'd still be cutting very hard into the list this year anyway.

We might have even used the Markovic and Thorne picks a little more wisely.

The thing is though, whilst we say we could have only got 2 late picks for Eagleton and Mulligan, the picks that we will likely use this year will be very late as well. At least we would have had the guys for 12 months.

[Bulldog Revolution]

I agree with GVG,

I didn't have a problem with giving the older guys another year but not axeing others to get more youngsters on the list was a real mistake

I dont know whether it should have been Tiller, Boumann, Mulligan etc, and we could argue over who, but whats obvious was we needed to cut and it was always going to be hard on someone, but three picks at the draft was stupid

Last year it was desperately needed kicking and this year it seems to be speed.

[Sockeye Salmon]

We might have even used the Markovic and Thorne picks a little more wisely.

The thing is though, whilst we say we could have only got 2 late picks for Eagleton and Mulligan, the picks that we will likely use this year will be very late as well. At least we would have had the guys for 12 months.

We wanted to draft Moles and rookie Thorne but we found out Collingwood wanted to rookie Thorne as well and they had the pick before us - source: Rocket - East-West family day last Feb.

Had we delisted Eagleton and Mulligan, we wouldn't have recieved another draft pick for Eagle - he was a vet - and we most certainly would have used the extra draft pick for Mulligan on Moles, who we elevated anyway.

Assuming we kept Mulligan as a rookie, all we would have been better off by is one more rookie pick to replace Eagleton.

[Twodogs]

To me, not cutting deeper was very poor list management.


I agree but I can see the sense at the time of keeping Aker and Johnno on at the end of 2009. I still maintain that their total lack of output would have been a 100 to 1 prospect when the MC were assessing their prospective influence for 2010 and it wsa still a worthwhile decision for them to go around one more time. At the time Johnno had played something like 350 games from a possible 360 since his debut and aker was coming of a season where he'd been close to AA selection.

You know what my opinion of Eagleton's value to the team has been for a few years now. I would have been quite happy to see him hang the boots last year.

[mjp]

We wanted to draft Moles and rookie Thorne but we found out Collingwood wanted to rookie Thorne as well and they had the pick before us - source: Rocket - East-West family day last Feb.


In retrospect just letting them have him might have been our best strategy.

[LostDoggy]

Remains to be seen. We have a history of not being able to make the hard call.




And we will know whether we've learnt from errors past or are destined to repeat the same mistakes when the club announces whether Mitch Hahn is delisted this year or not.






I think the biggest mistake was in keeping Eagleton. He'd had a shocker against the Saints (admittedly after being close to bog against the Lions), but the players wanted to keep him on I think, they took paycuts and sentiment probably got mixed into the judgment as to whether or not to keep him on. It was a tricky situation at the time.




Delisting Mitch may be even trickier; but it must be done.

He's been a wonderful club servant and had a great career; but the game had already past him by before the AFL announced the reduced interchange bench for next season.

There is simply no place left on the ground for Mitch any more and this year he played a number of games in the seniors when he should have been playing at Williamstown (to the detriment of the team).

Five ageing players from the one draft (Murphy, Giansiracusa, Gilbee, Hargrave & Hahn) cannot conclude their senior careers together. One has to go first and it must be Mitch.

If Hahn is given another contract then the men responsible for managing our playing list are seriously letting down the club.

[LostDoggy]

I think only taking 3 picks in the 2008 draft was a bad move. It was a decent draft and an ability to freshen up before GC and GWS come in. The fact that we gave a 3rd round back to StKilda in exchange for Ray and their 2nd Round was pretty significant.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Five ageing players from the one draft (Murphy, Giansiracusa, Gilbee, Hargrave & Hahn) cannot conclude their senior careers together. One has to go first and it must be Mitch.

I think you are correct with the thought on Mitch and I wonder if the reason Minson was put up and no one looked at him was also the game changing rules.

Out of the 5 players you mentioned I would have Mitch No1 then Gilbee as No2. Unfortunately other clubs are locking down on him and Rocket started him in the forward 1/2 but he is not as dangerous as he is running of 1/2back. I think he needs to work on this as this year we should have a fit Reid, Wood and Sherman fighting for spots with him.

I suggest to all those on here if we had a fit Jonno, Ward, Reid, Wood, Lake, Morris, Cooney, Higgans, Harbrow, Murphy and Minson, things could have been a whole lot different.

I still think that the list is OK as if we get reasonable years out the the 5 stated above that will get us through to the young kids starting to impact the AFL the year after.

Mitch should go, Cross, Minson and Gilbee need to be looking over their shoulders with an eye on the young guys wanting a spot in the side.

[LostDoggy]

We could of managed the list better or culled more players or whatever but the facts are we didn't we had a crack and it didn't pay off. I don't blame them for that and can understand why they did. The year didn't end because of list management or because we kept players on the list that we shouldve moved on it ended because we didn't get any luck and I've lost my voice the amount of times I've said our year wouldve went a week longer had our list been as healthy as the other top four sides. Nothing more nothing less just luck we didn't get any of it. Now we have to move on and do what needs to be done and I think we are targeting the right players and being active which is very positive.

*

[Mofra]

We might have even used the Markovic and Thorne picks a little more wisely.
The idea was right, the execution was woeful. Thorne was the quick X factor we lacked, Marcovic was the Lake replacement in case of injury.

Neither have worked out - Marcovic looks slow and if Lake went down, I'd rather put Williams on the monster and try Morris as a CHB on the leading types (teams rarely/never play two gorillas at the same time because it kills their rebound).