The one thing stopping us winning the flag?

[Dry Rot]

I got into footy and the Dogs in 1998.

As an ex-rugby league fan in Sydney, I had no problem with the complaints by other teams' fans about questionable behaviour about some of our players. I liked winning, but if we couldn't win, then I liked the fact that certain mongrel players of ours would take their toll.

With Rhode and Eade, for whatever reason, that reputation and those acts would fade away, along with certain players. I think we have now lost our edge, and there's only one or two Dogs players that are truly "feared".

Then there was this exchange on another thread, and IMO Twodogs nailed it.


Or the reverse? Barry Hall decked Chris Grant off the ball right in front me at the SCG.

Of course, he's a perfect gentleman now in my eyes. :D


I rermeber being angrier with our blokes than Hall. Not one of them flew the flag while Grant was spreadeagled on the ground. Until Shaggy took his chance.

This game was IIRC in 2003 or 2004 but what's changed?

Our players can get decked, and no-one flies the flag. Who really helped Hall when North went birko this season?

To win the flag IMO we have to be harder across the field and if one of one our players get cleaned up, the the opposition has to know that there will be consequences on-field then and there.

IMO, if we don't HTFU we won't win the flag, no matter what talent we have.

[Bulldog Joe]

Well I think we have hardened up under Eade.

It was Wallace that brought in the softies Bowden, McMahon etc.

Nowadays you just can't go the biff but we have some real hard nuts

Picken, Reid, Addison, Ward and Wood among our younger brigade do not shirk the contest and I think they can all make sure that the opposition knows they are around.

Brett Deledio is certainly aware of Picken and I'm pretty sure Sam Gilbert and Brett Kirk were given plenty of evidence of Addison's presence in the final series.

[Mantis]

I don't agree at all DR...

The game has changed and the payback system that used to be around no longer exists.

Our hardness isn't holding us back.

[Hotdog60]

I got into footy and the Dogs in 1998.
Our players can get decked, and no-one flies the flag. Who really helped Hall when North went birko this season?


Stack was there, he came in to assist and he held a NM players jumper while desperately looking around to see who was coming to help.:D

[LostDoggy]

I think the main thing is we've struggled over the last few years to find an answer to structures like St Kildas, and more particularly Collingwoods last year. Or to come up with one of our own that other teams can't deal with. We have the list .

[Sockeye Salmon]

This game was IIRC in 2003 or 2004 but what's changed?

Our players can get decked, and no-one flies the flag. Who really helped Hall when North went birko this season?



Our blokes were all too busy getting the ball and kicking goals

[LostDoggy]

Our players can get decked, and no-one flies the flag. Who really helped Hall when North went birko this season?


This is something that has troubled me.
There seems to be a real "divide" for lack of a better word, among our group.
No real unity.

[LostDoggy]

As if Hall can't handle himself

[LostDoggy]

Coons did some weird fly-kick/tumble. Ended up nowhere i think :)

We haven't done a great deal since Peter Sumich almost met his maker.

[mighty_west]

Im reckon the one thing stopping us has been luck with injuries, since when have we gone in with a fit Cooney? Every year we always seem to have a few important players missing or going at 40%, it just kills you.

[soupman]

I like that we don't seem to get distracted by incidents like the Hall scenario, but I would have liked to see more of our players come in and support him. Nothing stupid needed to be done, but a few players actually helping him out would be good to see. I know round 1 against Collingwood when Hall cleaned up Wellingham we all ran in to support him, and thats what I want to see us doing.

Really with the AFL being so picky over small incidents (see Addison's suspension in the PF) now, I'm not sure that getting revenge is really that good an idea unless we can legitimately dish it out within the rules, which I hope we are doing already. I'm all for opposition players knowing they are going to get a whack on the head if they touch one of our players, but I would rather our best 22 still being available the following week.

[LostDoggy]

I'm all for opposition players knowing they are going to get a whack on the head if they touch one of our players, but I would rather our best 22 still being available the following week.

Nah (first half of sentence), yeah (second half). Who does that crap anymore? Only teams doing 'line in the sand' crap like Hawthorn and Essendon in their shit years. The better teams are all trying to get through the season without suspensions, the crappier teams are trying to bait you into engaging in the rough stuff.

Brisbane in their three-peat years were tough as nails without being dickheads, when they started falling back to the pack was when they started with the niggle with lame stunts like giving Saint Nick's injured shoulder a whack, and it was a downhill slide after that.

Only shit teams like Norf (and shit players, or older players who are now shit) still dish up lame argy-bargy. And you can just hear Dermie on SEN every week during the season itching for someone to go the biff so he can defend how manly his sport is!

[AndrewP6]

As if Hall can't handle himself

Problem is, if he handled himself the way he probably felt like doing against Norf, he'd never play again. Our blokes should have done more to give him a chop-out (pardon the gratuitous use of your username :) ) And not the Adam Cooney "jump on his back, hold on tight and hope for the best" chop out either :)

[LostDoggy]

Problem is, if he handled himself the way he probably felt like doing against Norf, he'd never play again. Our blokes should have done more to give him a chop-out (pardon the gratuitous use of your username :) ) And not the Adam Cooney "jump on his back, hold on tight and hope for the best" chop out either :)
Its a strange one cos North's performance on the day was pathetic. Once they knew they were going to lose they went the man. For them a win was to try and up set Barry.

I remember in the last round game in 1997 Hawthorn played the same way. We had a number of players that flew the flag. Hawthorn had nothing to lose yet we copped the key suspensions for the finals. Could say Southern being outted(not sure if Dimma did too) and Kolynuik rubbed out a few weeks earlier, cost us the premiership that year cos we did fly the flag.

[The Coon Dog]

Its a strange one cos North's performance on the day was pathetic. Once they knew they were going to lose they went the man. For them a win was to try and up set Barry.

I remember in the last round game in 1997 Hawthorn played the same way. We had a number of players that flew the flag. Hawthorn had nothing to lose yet we copped the key suspensions for the finals. Could say Southern being outted(not sure if Dimma did too) and Kolynuik rubbed out a few weeks earlier, cost us the premiership that year cos we did fly the flag.

Yup, Dimma got 2 weeks for striking Rayden Tallis.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Yup, Dimma got 2 weeks for striking Rayden Tallis.

Was that not the game where Daniel Southern got 2 weeks for wrestling?

[Sedat]

I remember in the last round game in 1997 Hawthorn played the same way. We had a number of players that flew the flag. Hawthorn had nothing to lose yet we copped the key suspensions for the finals. Could say Southern being outted(not sure if Dimma did too) and Kolynuik rubbed out a few weeks earlier, cost us the premiership that year cos we did fly the flag.
The chief protagonist for the hawks that day is the curent coach of NM - no surprises there. Even the big fish got ugly that day and conceded two 50m penalties against Wynd to start the match.

Whilst the AFL had us in the gun in 1997 for Libba evading sanctions and a few other misdemeanours and royally screwed us in the aftermath of that R22 match, it is proof that flying the flag and retaliating is rather a stupid thing to do, even more so in today's hyper-sensitive climate.

[BulldogBelle]

It was very disappointing to see only Stack to assist Hall when attacked by Norf. We have had poor retaliatory aggression that goes back to players like Rohan Smith and his ilk who never seemed to stick up for a team mate who was under fire. Its piss poor, shameful.

Players should be coached on how to defend their mates who have been decked or are in a melee. They should be able to demonstrate their abhorrence at an opposition's detestable play without breaking the rules. The players have to be taught to take the right option and be trained in it.

One way would be to get to the scene of the crime and shout loudly in the face of the perpetrator.
Chesting the perpetrator would also work. But they should at least rush to the scene. Surely the coaches should be able to think up some procedures.

I don't like seeing our champs get decked and the rats get away with it. I don't like the do nothing method.

[chef]

It was very disappointing to see only Stack to assist Hall when attacked by Norf. We have had poor retaliatory aggression that goes back to players like Rohan Smith and his ilk who never seemed to stick up for a team mate who was under fire. Its piss poor, shameful.

Players should be coached on how to defend their mates who have been decked or are in a melee. They should be able to demonstrate their abhorrence at an opposition's detestable play without breaking the rules. The players have to be taught to take the right option and be trained in it.

One way would be to get to the scene of the crime and shout loudly in the face of the perpetrator.
Chesting the perpetrator would also work. But they should at least rush to the scene. Surely the coaches should be able to think up some procedures.

I don't like seeing our champs get decked and the rats get away with it. I don't like the do nothing method.

I would rather our players stick to the task at hand, then leave their man just to try to look macho. Times have changed and the best way to hurt the opposition is to kick a goal.

[comrade]

It was very disappointing to see only Stack to assist Hall when attacked by Norf. We have had poor retaliatory aggression that goes back to players like Rohan Smith and his ilk who never seemed to stick up for a team mate who was under fire. Its piss poor, shameful.


Sorry, but that is garbage.

The ball was in play in OUR forward line. It might just be me, but I'd prefer they didn't stop mid play and run up the other end of the ground for some argy bargy.

More importantly, it wasn't just Stack. Once our players realised what was happening Cooney got involved, others assisted as Barry tried to run off the ground and big Brian ran frm full back to push his weight around. To say that Stack was the only one flying the flag is blatantly wrong. It was just that he was the only player in the vicinity when those Norf flogs first took Barry on.

It's easy to latch on to one thing like 'flying the flag' and say "yep, this is why we haven't won a flag". The real reason is harder to admit; we haven't been good enough, plain and simple.

[Mantis]

Sorry, but that is garbage.

The ball was in play in OUR forward line. It might just be me, but I'd prefer they didn't stop mid play and run up the other end of the ground for some argy bargy.

More importantly, it wasn't just Stack. Once our players realised what was happening Cooney got involved, others assisted as Barry tried to run off the ground and big Brian ran frm full back to push his weight around. To say that Stack was the only one flying the flag is blatantly wrong. It was just that he was the only player in the vicinity when those Norf flogs first took Barry on.

It's easy to latch on to one thing like 'flying the flag' and say "yep, this is why we haven't won a flag". The real reason is harder to admit; we haven't been good enough, plain and simple.

The ball was actually in their forward line.

[comrade]

The ball was actually in their forward line.

Duh.

Of course, why would Bazza be at full back? :D

You could have just PM'd me so I could stealth edit my post and save me the embarrassment ;)

[LostDoggy]

The one thing stopping us from winning a flag is that we can't win a preliminary final. :(

[LostDoggy]

The one thing stopping us from winning a flag is that we can't win a preliminary final. :(

Haha this. Absolutely.

We played North in a nothing game that we won by 1000 points. It's not like we have a cultural problem that stops us from winning winnable games, we just can't win the really tough ones at the business end, where no one bothers to 'fly the flag' because the on-the-ball action is plenty tough enough.

[Hotdog60]

My thoughts on flying the flag is more like when Johnno gave Barnes a spray at the end of the game against Essendon in 2000, when you win of course.

Just to let the opposition know you won't take that kind of stuff, but like others have said this day and age you can't even the score otherwise you let the team down being rubbed out for a couple of weeks.

[EasternWest]

Sorry, but that is garbage.

The ball was in play in OUR forward line. It might just be me, but I'd prefer they didn't stop mid play and run up the other end of the ground for some argy bargy.

More importantly, it wasn't even Stack. Once our players realised what was happening Cooney got involved, others assisted as Barry tried to run off the ground and big Brian ran frm full back to push his weight around. To say that Stack was the only one flying the flag is blatantly wrong. It was just that he was the only player in the vicinity when those Norf flogs first took Barry on.

It's easy to latch on to one thing like 'flying the flag' and say "yep, this is why we haven't won a flag". The real reason is harder to admit; we haven't been good enough, plain and simple.

You made a mistake in your post Comrade. I fixed it for you. Being there does not necessarily constitute doing anything.


Duh.

Of course, why would Bazza be at full back? :D

You could have just PM'd me so I could stealth edit my post and save me the embarrassment ;)

Where's the fun in that?


My thoughts on flying the flag is more like when Johnno gave Barnes a spray at the end of the game against Essendon in 2000, when you win of course.


From a safe distance, also of course.

[chef]

Sorry, but that is garbage.

The ball was in play in OUR forward line. It might just be me, but I'd prefer they didn't stop mid play and run up the other end of the ground for some argy bargy.

More importantly, it wasn't just Stack. Once our players realised what was happening Cooney got involved, others assisted as Barry tried to run off the ground and big Brian ran frm full back to push his weight around. To say that Stack was the only one flying the flag is blatantly wrong. It was just that he was the only player in the vicinity when those Norf flogs first took Barry on.

It's easy to latch on to one thing like 'flying the flag' and say "yep, this is why we haven't won a flag". The real reason is harder to admit; we haven't been good enough, plain and simple.

And really why does Bazza need help, he could take them all by himself.

[Ghost Dog]

I got into footy and the Dogs in 1998.



Our players can get decked, and no-one flies the flag. Who really helped Hall when North went birko this season?

.

Coon Dog was into it. Seem to remember Adam barging in and throwing some player on his head, then ending up with his head under another blokes crotch in some wierd twister event.

North off with the fairies in that game and the results spoke for themselves.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Watching Lake stream from full back to throw his weight around was enough for me. My love for the man grew that day.

As others have said, our problem is beating the best sides. We haven't been good enough, particularly last season, but I'm confident we can begin to turn that around.

[Ghost Dog]

The one thing stopping us winning the flag? Money. Lack of it.
Clubs with deep pockets / better stadium arrangements and powerful backing win premierships more often. Footy departments need cash, pure and simple.

Western growth corridor is swelling, and the dogs day in the sun will come.

[LostDoggy]

Key player Injuries plain and simple. All resulting from to many games on a carpark. Move to the G or Geelong and we go back to back.

[AndrewP6]

And really why does Bazza need help, he could take them all by himself.


Coon Dog was into it. Seem to remember Adam barging in and throwing some player on his head, then ending up with his head under another blokes crotch in some wierd twister event.


This post answers both (I think!)


Problem is, if he handled himself the way he probably felt like doing against Norf, he'd never play again. Our blokes should have done more to give him a chop-out (pardon the gratuitous use of your username :) ) And not the Adam Cooney "jump on his back, hold on tight and hope for the best" chop out either :)

[LostDoggy]

The one thing stopping us winning the flag? Money. Lack of it.
Clubs with deep pockets / better stadium arrangements and powerful backing win premierships more often. Footy departments need cash, pure and simple.

Western growth corridor is swelling, and the dogs day in the sun will come.

Broadly agree with this -- having said that, Norf won a few back in the day on the oil of a smelly rag and the best CHF who ever played.

[Desipura]

Coon Dog was into it. Seem to remember Adam barging in and throwing some player on his head, then ending up with his head under another blokes crotch in some wierd twister event.

North off with the fairies in that game and the results spoke for themselves.
I was going to say Barry does not strike me (pardon the pun) as someone who would be into fighting.:D

[bornadog]

To win the flag everything must go right for you throughout the year and then the finals, and that means very few injuries. Have a look at the last few premiership winners, virtually no injuries to key players throughout the year. I can't remember one prelim from 1992 to this year where we haven't had a major injury, or suspension to players going into finals. The 1985 prelim we did go in with very few injuries, although I think Rick Kennedy was not fully fit after suffering an injury.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I don't agree at all DR...

The game has changed and the payback system that used to be around no longer exists.

Our hardness isn't holding us back.

A number of our players lack a strong physical presence. It was most noticeable in season 2010 where if it wasn't for the influences of Hall, Lake, Hudson and Cross in particular we would have struggled to make the top four.

[Dazza]

If Johnno and Akermanis contributed like they had in 2009 I'd say we would have given the flag a fair shake.

[Ghost Dog]

Pardon my ignorance. What's a chop out? Some kind of wrestling term for fending someone off?

[Ghost Dog]

Broadly agree with this -- having said that, Norf won a few back in the day on the oil of a smelly rag and the best CHF who ever played.

Right. It's possible. It's fun to watch those old Youtube highlights of Carey. kicking goals off one step from 50 out. And in retrospect, probably hung over.

[EasternWest]

Pardon my ignorance. What's a chop out? Some kind of wrestling term for fending someone off?

It just means to come into help. Like I'm giving you a chop out with this answer.

[w3design]

Pardon my ignorance. What's a chop out? Some kind of wrestling term for fending someone off?



I actually think he was using a pun, replying to a poster named chops. Substituting the "cop" in "cop-out" for chop.

[AndrewP6]

Pardon my ignorance. What's a chop out? Some kind of wrestling term for fending someone off?


It just means to come into help. Like I'm giving you a chop out with this answer.

Yep, this is it.

[Maddog37]

We need more mongrel at the kennel.

[The Underdog]

I'm interested in the concept that there was only one thing holding us back from winning the flag.
I would have thought in 2010 that at least all of
1. Injuries to top 22 players
2. Poor performance/injury/dickheadedness by our Johnson/Eagleton/Hahn/Akermanis
3. Some players not playing up to the level of previous years / playing selfish football
4. Lack of depth on the list

would top it in importance.

I understand that the OP is about a long term issue within the club but I think it's down the list every year if it's indeed important at all.

[The Underdog]

We need more mongrel at the kennel.

I don't think Collingwood were characterised by a great deal of mongrel, yet they won the premiership. I would have thought an overall committment to the gameplan and role within that was more instrumental.

[Ghost Dog]

I don't think Collingwood were characterised by a great deal of mongrel, yet they won the premiership. I would have thought an overall committment to the gameplan and role within that was more instrumental.

Totally disagree

Case in point: Harry O'brian stepped it up in 2010. More wrestle, more niggle and that thing that SHITS me, taking the player on the mark out of the play- player coming from behind to block . Were they doing that in 2009?
thought Collingwood looked far more agressive than us in 2010.

There is a time and a place for mongrel. But tackling is a huge issue at the pound. Rather that than biffo

[anfo27]

Can't be injuries, every team has injuries come finals. I just don't think we are mentally tough enough to match the best teams. We have shown time and time that we are unable to block out outside pressures whatever they might be and come out and play our best.

[Dazza]

Collingwood ran every team off it's feet from it's defensive half. The new interchange rule might slow them down slightly.

[soupman]

Can't be injuries, every team has injuries come finals. I just don't think we are mentally tough enough to match the best teams. We have shown time and time that we are unable to block out outside pressures whatever they might be and come out and play our best.

I disagree.

Whilst I believe injuries shouldn't be used as an excuse, it would be ignorant to suggest they don't have an impact on finals performances. You can't say Adfam Cooney's injury didn't affect our performances.

[BulldogBelle]

We had a very bad run with injuries at the pointy end of the season

Cooney, Morris, Lake, Higgins....some of our best either not playing or underdone...

I'm not going nto point the finger at our medical staff as the majority of our injuries werent soft tissue...with Morris' and Lakes it would have been tough to prevent them

[stefoid]

one ounce of "ability to perform under pressure" would be worth a tonne of "mongrel".

[anfo27]

I disagree.

Whilst I believe injuries shouldn't be used as an excuse, it would be ignorant to suggest they don't have an impact on finals performances. You can't say Adfam Cooney's injury didn't affect our performances.

The way we performed all year would suggest to me that even with Cooney we would not have won through to a grand final. Cooney doesn't exactly have a good record in finals.
It just annoys me to read people use injuries as to why we haven't done well in finals, thats a cop out. Every team plays players that probably shouldn't be playing come finals and we had all those players last year and it was the same result.

[Ghost Dog]

Agreed
We may have gone alright with Adam in, and was a huge out, but you need enough depth to be able to cover injuries.
It was too big an out to suggest our list was too thin on performers.

[boydogs]

one ounce of "ability to perform under pressure" would be worth a tonne of "mongrel".

Those two things are far from being mutually exclusive.

The nice guy, skillful players get shut down under finals pressure and easily lose confidence.
The hard nuts relish the contest and believe they deserve to win.

[LostDoggy]

Those two things are far from being mutually exclusive.

The nice guy, skillful players get shut down under finals pressure and easily lose confidence.
The hard nuts relish the contest and believe they deserve to win.

I think this is overly simplistic -- some players play aggressively to compensate for low confidence, which is exposed in finals. See half of St.Kilda's list for examples.

Meanwhile, plenty of professional, nice-guy players have thrived in finals over the history of our game, as of course, 'niceness' is not mutually exclusive (to use your term) from 'hardness'.

I agree that hardness at the contest is important, but that and 'mongrel' are two different things -- you can be a fair player and still hit a contest hard, and you can be an eye-gouger and scratcher and general dickhead and still duck your head at a contest or be a non-factor in finals.

Ryan Griffen has been our best performer in finals, and Callan Ward wasn't far behind him this year, and neither of them are dickheads. And how is Stephen Milne's record in finals?

[LostDoggy]

I'm interested in the concept that there was only one thing holding us back from winning the flag.
I would have thought in 2010 that at least all of
1. Injuries to top 22 players
2. Poor performance/injury/dickheadedness by our Johnson/Eagleton/Hahn/Akermanis
3. Some players not playing up to the level of previous years / playing selfish football
4. Lack of depth on the list

would top it in importance.

I understand that the OP is about a long term issue within the club but I think it's down the list every year if it's indeed important at all.

You might be right but people are always looking for new excuses/someone to blame.
This weeks word is Mongrel.
Shame A.Mongrel didn't nominate himself on the draft. Anyway he would have been taken prior our first pick.

[boydogs]

I think this is overly simplistic -- some players play aggressively to compensate for low confidence, which is exposed in finals. See half of St.Kilda's list for examples.

Meanwhile, plenty of professional, nice-guy players have thrived in finals over the history of our game, as of course, 'niceness' is not mutually exclusive (to use your term) from 'hardness'.

I agree that hardness at the contest is important, but that and 'mongrel' are two different things -- you can be a fair player and still hit a contest hard, and you can be an eye-gouger and scratcher and general dickhead and still duck your head at a contest or be a non-factor in finals.

Ryan Griffen has been our best performer in finals, and Callan Ward wasn't far behind him this year, and neither of them are dickheads. And how is Stephen Milne's record in finals?

We're waxing lyrical a bit here. I'm just saying there is a certain commonailty between players who are outwardly confident enough to have a physical prescence, and players with the confidence not to fall to water under pressure.

You shouldn't need Brian Lake to run from FB to escort the FF off the field. Cooney & Stack's efforts could best be described as 'token'. The 2010 PF was lost because no-one stood up to stem the tide against us, as we gave up our half time lead during the 3rd quarter. I think there is validity in the thinking that we need more players prepared to make their mark in that situation.

[LostDoggy]

The 2010 PF was lost because no-one stood up to stem the tide against us, as we gave up our half time lead during the 3rd quarter. I think there is validity in the thinking that we need more players prepared to make their mark in that situation.

Totally agree with this -- but the best way to stem the tide is to go up to their end and score a couple of goals, not engage in argy-bargy, which these days, is more likely to end up in a free-kick and goal to the opposition anyway, which is the most certain way to NOT stem the tide ie. 2009 PF when Riewoldt went down as if shot from Lake's elbow to the ribs and got a free goal from it.

[boydogs]

Totally agree with this -- but the best way to stem the tide is to go up to their end and score a couple of goals, not engage in argy-bargy, which these days, is more likely to end up in a free-kick and goal to the opposition anyway, which is the most certain way to NOT stem the tide ie. 2009 PF when Riewoldt went down as if shot from Lake's elbow to the ribs and got a free goal from it.

The Riewoldt dive is a poor example for a few reasons. It was never intended to be a serious hit, it was not done whilst the Saints were on top and it should never have been given a free as it was just a dive.

Look at what happened with Hawthorn v Essendon in round 22, 2009, and then tell me that physicality can't turn a match on its head.

[The Underdog]

The Riewoldt dive is a poor example for a few reasons. It was never intended to be a serious hit, it was not done whilst the Saints were on top and it should never have been given a free as it was just a dive.

Look at what happened with Hawthorn v Essendon in round 22, 2009, and then tell me that physicality can't turn a match on its head.

What role did Matthew Lloyd play in the first week of the finals?

[LostDoggy]

The 2010 PF was lost because no-one stood up to stem the tide against us, as we gave up our half time lead during the 3rd quarter. I think there is validity in the thinking that we need more players prepared to make their mark in that situation.

You must of been at a different game. We lost cause we weren't good enough. If you are going to saying injurys prior and during the game played there part, its a more valid excuse.

[LostDoggy]

Some of the big factors was the Beard damaging his ankle in Darwin. Cooney and Cross were struggling for consistent form. Our biggest problem was that we abandoned our run and carry through the corridor, too often a promising drive upfield resulted in a switch of play to the wing and we would turn it over. I like BB as our rock at FF but we tried to drop it on his head instead of having him lead to the ball, again a turnover , we needed young Higgins to be our Crumber but he was injured or ill. Our decision making in the tight games let us down too many times. 2010 was a tough year , disruptions, controversy , injuries .

2011 brings a No 2 ruck battle between Big W and J-Ruff , Hooper ( the 4X4 ) moving to a midfield rotation with Cooney, Easton Wood replacing Shaggy at HB, Nathan Djerrkura slotting in at BP, Callan Ward and the Sherminator competing for a spot on the bench as Rebounding Flankers , Dylan Addison to mould his game on Rooke - Defensive Forward and move to FP , Liam Jones and Veszpremi to compete for a HF starting spot

The future is positive, we have a good platform to launch a great campaign for September glory

The question should be , Who is going to be good enough to stop us ?
.

[boydogs]

What role did Matthew Lloyd play in the first week of the finals?

What role did the Hawks play?


You must of been at a different game. We lost cause we weren't good enough. If you are going to saying injurys prior and during the game played there part, its a more valid excuse.

We were in front at half time without Cooney and Higgins. The Saints got a run on in the 3rd and all of a sudden our season was over without firing a shot.

[LostDoggy]

We were in front at half time without Cooney and Higgins. The Saints got a run on in the 3rd and all of a sudden our season was over without firing a shot.
Yes cos we copped a few more injurys not because we didn't go in hard enough.
If you don't think the saints were better than us you're kidding yourself.

[Mantis]

2011 brings a No 2 ruck battle between Big W and J-Ruff , Hooper ( the 4X4 ) moving to a midfield rotation with Cooney, Easton Wood replacing Shaggy at HB, Nathan Djerrkura slotting in at BP, Callan Ward and the Sherminator competing for a spot on the bench as Rebounding Flankers , Dylan Addison to mould his game on Rooke - Defensive Forward and move to FP , Liam Jones and Veszpremi to compete for a HF starting spot



I can't agree with much of this.

Hooper to the midfield - I can't see it happening, his motor isn't big enough and his body shape isn't really designed to play as a modern day midfielder.

Wood was already in our best 22 last season (along with Hargrave).

Djerrkura has played all his footy as a mid/ forward and although a positional change worked with Harbrow one would suggest that it would be a stretch for it to happen again.

Ward showed his value in the centre square in the PF, thats where he belongs.

Sherman is a winger/ HF, he needs to be running with the ball forward of centre.

Jones & Veszpremi will not be competing for a spot in the team. Jones is a CHF, Ves is a small/mid forward.

[LostDoggy]

Look at what happened with Hawthorn v Essendon in round 22, 2009, and then tell me that physicality can't turn a match on its head.

Look at our first final vs. Collingwood in 2006 where they cleaned up Monty while we went down and scored two goals -- it's usually more trouble than its worth.

In the last decade, teams have won premierships by beating other teams, mainly on toughness and skill. The only teams engaging in stupid crap are the ones that know that they are outclassed.

Only Hawthorn, with its 'unsociable footy' crap, has pulled it off, but mainly because Buddy kicked 150 goals that year, not because they eye-gouged everyone they played. They still eye gouge and have players suspended weekly, so they've maintained their so-called 'mongrel', but Buddy and Roughhead's output has diminished, and they've become a finals non-factor.

The example you use of the Hawthorn Essendon match is actually a perfect illustration of the opposite of your point -- neither of them were a serious factor that year due to being completely shit so had to go out and make a statement with a hip and shoulder rather than just outscoring their opponents. No one else in the footy world really gave a shit about anything that went on in that game, especially not those actually challenging for a flag that year, and Lloydy's hip-and-shoulder had zero bearing on where the flag ended up.

[LostDoggy]

The Riewoldt dive is a poor example for a few reasons. It was never intended to be a serious hit, it was not done whilst the Saints were on top and it should never have been given a free as it was just a dive.
.

But that's PRECISELY why it's stupid to bother engaging in try-hard mongrel antics, because the umps are inconsistent and the AFL are clamping down on behind-the-play rubbish. It's no use complaining after the fact that it was a 'dive' etc. etc. -- the Saints won the match, we didn't.

And if you don't think the free changed the momentum of the match (and helped decide a tight game won by less than two goals) then we were watching a different game. I was pissed off at the ump at the time too, but really, Lake should have known better after the ump warned him just before he went ahead and did it anyway.

Cleaning a Saints player up wouldn't have changed the result of the game -- Lake not giving away the free and Gia kicking straight in the last two minutes probably would have.

[boydogs]

Look at our first final vs. Collingwood in 2006 where they cleaned up Monty while we went down and scored two goals -- it's usually more trouble than its worth.

In the last decade, teams have won premierships by beating other teams, mainly on toughness and skill. The only teams engaging in stupid crap are the ones that know that they are outclassed.

Only Hawthorn, with its 'unsociable footy' crap, has pulled it off, but mainly because Buddy kicked 150 goals that year, not because they eye-gouged everyone they played. They still eye gouge and have players suspended weekly, so they've maintained their so-called 'mongrel', but Buddy and Roughhead's output has diminished, and they've become a finals non-factor.

The example you use of the Hawthorn Essendon match is actually a perfect illustration of the opposite of your point -- neither of them were a serious factor that year due to being completely shit so had to go out and make a statement with a hip and shoulder rather than just outscoring their opponents. No one else in the footy world really gave a shit about anything that went on in that game, especially not those actually challenging for a flag that year, and Lloydy's hip-and-shoulder had zero bearing on where the flag ended up.

Collingwood were in front at quarter time in that final following the Holland/Monty bump at the opening bounce before we kicked about 15 goals in a row after we finally settled down again. It didn't help Essendon the next week, but the Lloyd/Sewell bump definitely won them that game.

Regardless, we are getting away from the point I was trying to make. I'm not really promoting physicality, just saying that 'good under pressure' and 'mongrel' often go hand in hand. It's a confidence thing to believe you can turn things around when it's all going against you, or prevail when it matters, and most players with a bit of mongrel have that confidence.


But that's PRECISELY why it's stupid to bother engaging in try-hard mongrel antics, because the umps are inconsistent and the AFL are clamping down on behind-the-play rubbish. It's no use complaining after the fact that it was a 'dive' etc. etc. -- the Saints won the match, we didn't.

And if you don't think the free changed the momentum of the match (and helped decide a tight game won by less than two goals) then we were watching a different game. I was pissed off at the ump at the time too, but really, Lake should have known better after the ump warned him just before he went ahead and did it anyway.

Cleaning a Saints player up wouldn't have changed the result of the game -- Lake not giving away the free and Gia kicking straight in the last two minutes probably would have.

That bump absolutely changed the momentum of the match, but it still wasn't an example of trying to turn the momentum by getting physical.

[LostDoggy]

Collingwood were in front at quarter time in that final following the Holland/Monty bump at the opening bounce before we kicked about 15 goals in a row after we finally settled down again. It didn't help Essendon the next week, but the Lloyd/Sewell bump definitely won them that game.

Your memory is short. Franklin being outted for the week before for sconing Cousins won had more influence on the result.

[LostDoggy]

Yes cos we copped a few more injurys not because we didn't go in hard enough.
If you don't think the saints were better than us you're kidding yourself.

I've said it way to many times already but I'll say it once more, THE SAINTS WERE NOT AND ARE NOT BETTER. Just luckier. And that's y'all I've gat ta say bout that.

[chef]

I've said it way to many times already but I'll say it once more, THE SAINTS WERE NOT AND ARE NOT BETTER. Just luckier. And that's y'all I've gat ta say bout that.

The Saints were better than us over the last two seasons, the results speak for themselves(no luck involved). Whether they are again next year us yet to be seen but IMO we will finish above them.

[anfo27]

I've said it way to many times already but I'll say it once more, THE SAINTS WERE NOT AND ARE NOT BETTER. Just luckier. And that's y'all I've gat ta say bout that.

We definately have more talent then the saints but talent only takes you so far. The saints are better than us because they play to the game plan and their mental strength makes up for their lack of talent.

[EasternWest]

I've said it way to many times already but I'll say it once more, THE SAINTS WERE NOT AND ARE NOT BETTER. Just luckier. And that's y'all I've gat ta say bout that.

The Saints were slightly better and luckier in the 09 pf. In 10 they were clearly better, and luck was not a factor.

Love your rose coloured glasses, but gotta disagree.

[EasternWest]

Your memory is short. Franklin being outted for the week before for sconing Cousins won had more influence on the result.

I was at that game. Sewell was cutting Essendon up, and Lloyd ironing him out absolutely, definitively turned the game. I know you don't like it when people disagree with you Chops, but that's just how it was.

As an aside, it was also the hardest hit I've ever seen with my own eyes. I'd say Harbrow hitting Lewis was close, but Lloyd wins due to mass.

[LostDoggy]

I was at that game. Sewell was cutting Essendon up, and Lloyd ironing him out absolutely, definitively turned the game. I know you don't like it when people disagree with you Chops, but that's just how it was.

As an aside, it was also the hardest hit I've ever seen with my own eyes. I'd say Harbrow hitting Lewis was a close, but Lloyd wins on mass.
I'm not doubting the Sewell hit changed that game at the time but I doubt Hawthorn would have lost (Sewell hit or not) had Franklin not been suspended for hitting Cousins the week before.
You can say Lloyd won that game for Essendon or Franklin lost it for Hawthorn.

Please clarify what I meant next time before you accuse me of being disagreeable.

[EasternWest]

I'm not doubting the Sewell hit changed that game at the time but I doubt Hawthorn would have lost (Sewell hit or not) had Franklin not been suspended for hitting Cousins the week before.
You can say Lloyd won that game for Essendon or Franklin lost it for Hawthorn.

Hmm. Your logic. I can't argue with it. Touché good sir.

[LostDoggy]

Hmm. Your logic. I can't argue with it. Touché good sir.

??? Thank you for your patronising.
This thread is about the difference winning and losing a GF through thuggery. Just saying it works boths ways.

I also seem to recall Phil Carman being suspended missing the 77? GF and possibly being the difference between Collingwood winning and losing.

[EasternWest]

??? Thank you for your patronising.
This thread is about the difference winning and losing a GF through thuggery. Just saying it works boths ways.

I also seem to recall Phil Carman being suspended missing the 77? GF and possibly being the difference between Collingwood winning and losing.

No I wasn't being patronising. You made a good point and I acknowledge that. Sorry if it came off that way.

The Sewell hit turned the game at the game, but you're right that Franklin missing entirely is probably more pertinent.

[The Underdog]

What role did the Hawks play?


Essendon's prize was to turn up in Adelaide next week and be thoroughly embarrassed. Apparently the "mongrel" that got them up against Hawthorn only went so far. I don't disagree if someone is espousing the theory that we lack leadership in big games and often a physical presence, but what Essendon resorted to in the Hawthorn game was thuggery and it didn't serve them the following week when they were asked to beat a superior team in a final.

[The Underdog]

We definately have more talent then the saints but talent only takes you so far. The saints are better than us because they play to the game plan and their mental strength makes up for their lack of talent.

They also have Riewoldt, we don't have a player that can impact a match in the way he can. We may be a more evenly talented team across the park but they have a superstar and we don't.

[Greystache]

Essendon's prize was to turn up in Adelaide next week and be thoroughly embarrassed. Apparently the "mongrel" that got them up against Hawthorn only went so far. I don't disagree if someone is espousing the theory that we lack leadership in big games and often a physical presence, but what Essendon resorted to in the Hawthorn game was thuggery and it didn't serve them the following week when they were asked to beat a superior team in a final.

I agree with you entirely except for the part about Essendon resorting to thuggery. The Lloyd hit was the only major incident from Essendon, and while Lloyd saw an opportunity to add some physical presence, the difference between it being a 6 week suspension and a clean hit was microseconds. Hawthorn lost the plot after that and tried to play thuggish football while Essendon kicked goals (Hurley in particular)

[The Underdog]

I agree with you entirely except for the part about Essendon resorting to thuggery. The Lloyd hit was the only major incident from Essendon, and while Lloyd saw an opportunity to add some physical presence, the difference between it being a 6 week suspension and a clean hit was microseconds. Hawthorn lost the plot after that and tried to play thuggish football while Essendon kicked goals (Hurley in particular)

Fair enough, I should have said what Lloyd resorted to was thuggery rather than the team (despite the difference between the possible result and the actual result it was). I disagree that this is the kind of "physical presence" needed to get us over the line or that it served Essendon in the long run in any way or that they were a team with the ability to use physicality positively. What we need is leaders who can help turn a game our way when it is going against us, not through knocking someone out but by winning contests and breaking the opposition spirit. We don't have anyone who does this in my opinion. We may not have anyone capable but maybe we'll see.

[Greystache]

Fair enough, I should have said what Lloyd resorted to was thuggery rather than the team (despite the difference between the possible result and the actual result it was). I disagree that this is the kind of "physical presence" needed to get us over the line or that it served Essendon in the long run in any way or that they were a team with the ability to use physicality positively. What we need is leaders who can help turn a game our way when it is going against us, not through knocking someone out but by winning contests and breaking the opposition spirit. We don't have anyone who does this in my opinion. We may not have anyone capable but maybe we'll see.

I'm not saying it's what we lacked, I agree with you entirely on where we fell short and what we need to do better. I just think the thuggery part of the Lloyd incident is over blown, it looks dirty in super slow motion, but I was at the game and it happened in a split second.

Also I think we all know we have one bloke capable of knocking someone out if it really came down to it... Yes Bob Murphy I'm talking about you ;)

[LostDoggy]

The Saints were slightly better and luckier in the 09 pf. In 10 they were clearly better, and luck was not a factor.

Love your rose coloured glasses, but gotta disagree.

Ok I'll put the glasses down hehe. Both teams at full strength, no niggles, no broken bones or thyroid problems or hips or knees. Just gun against gun and I still have no doubt the results would be reversed. But it's December and I guess it hardly matters now...

[chef]

They also have Riewoldt, we don't have a player that can impact a match in the way he can. We may be a more evenly talented team across the park but they have a superstar and we don't.

This^

Chuck Roo in our forward line and we would have won one of the last three flags.

[LostDoggy]

Fair enough, I should have said what Lloyd resorted to was thuggery rather than the team (despite the difference between the possible result and the actual result it was). I disagree that this is the kind of "physical presence" needed to get us over the line or that it served Essendon in the long run in any way or that they were a team with the ability to use physicality positively. What we need is leaders who can help turn a game our way when it is going against us, not through knocking someone out but by winning contests and breaking the opposition spirit. We don't have anyone who does this in my opinion. We may not have anyone capable but maybe we'll see.

Absolutely. Essendon didn't win that match, Hawthorn lost it by moving their focus from the ball to the man to "avenge" Sewell. They'd have been better served playing modern footy, because they may have stitched Adelaide up the week after.

[LostDoggy]

If I Have to name just the one thing that is stopping us from winning a flag it would have to be our lack of grand final appearances.:p

[Ghost Dog]

Absolutely. Essendon didn't win that match, Hawthorn lost it by moving their focus from the ball to the man to "avenge" Sewell. They'd have been better served playing modern footy, because they may have stitched Adelaide up the week after.

It also takes 'hardness' to not be baited. To stay cool. As you say, Hawthorn take the bait easily - have a bad run with injuries. (A factor?)
To keep your mind on the game or cleverly take a man out of play by stretching the rules, just enough.

Didak, Buddy, Barry, have had some very bad days, being 'hard', usually having been sucked into a fray. You want to put it up the opposition, put some points on the board.
The normal machismo type of hardness is easy to see. People puffing their chests out. It's part of the game. ok.
Poise and restraint is less obvious and little celebrated, but in any sport - it's the cooler heads with minds on job, usually get it done.

Mind you, every team needs a L. Picken - AKA chuck norris.

[LostDoggy]

If I Have to name just the one thing that is stopping us from winning a flag it would have to be our lack of grand final appearances.:p

Well, it does'nt matter how much of a JunkYard Dog you are , if your not there at the Grand Final you can flex your pecs and bulge your biceps at Pre-Season training as you get over missing out for another year

I would much rather a team of Dogs who are mentally switched on than a team with a few people who are mental http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq262/cca31/Emoticons/tummenupp.gif

.

[LostDoggy]

Well, it does'nt matter how much of a JunkYard Dog you are , if your not there at the Grand Final you can flex your pecs and bulge your biceps at Pre-Season training as you get over missing out for another year

I would much rather a team of Dogs who are mentally switched on than a team with a few people who are mental http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq262/cca31/Emoticons/tummenupp.gif

.
Nothing wrong with mentals, I am related to a long line of Mentals. I have an cousin who was a scientist, Experi Mental. His wife is a full blown greenie, Enviro Mental. His dad Develop Mental works in real estate. His uncle is a classical guitarist, Instru Mental. who's wife Basket, is actually the daughter of the luggage/travel accessory pioneer, Suit Case. Instru and Basket have several kids, Ima Mental-Case, Youra Mental-Case, Hesa Mental-Case and Shesa Mental-Case.
Experi used to go visit his grandfather who had retired from the county court, Judge Mental. Judge had a younger brother who became a priest in a Christian cult, Funda Mental. Funda got his congregation to believe that this world would end unless they revert to the pagan practices of worshipping the Earth Mother, which just so happened to be his dear wife, Ele Mental.Their daughter, Sacra Mental was involved somehow as well in some sort of perverted pagan ceremony that got them all arrested. This really upset their son who struggled with the notoriety and was never the the same, poor Detri Mental.
On further reflection, even though I'm a little bit Mental myself, I won't get involved with that situation. Can do without more Mental problems on my mind. ;):D

[LostDoggy]

http://smileys.emoticonsonly.com/emoticons/b/bow_down-963.gif http://smileys.emoticonsonly.com/emoticons/b/bow_down-963.gif http://smileys.emoticonsonly.com/emoticons/b/bow_down-963.gif
No, I,ve got nothing , legend !!!!!!!
.

[Twodogs]

Getting back to Barry's trouble against North. I know for a fact that certain players were assigned preseason to 'look after' Barry if trouble sprung up during a game.

Not look after him as in go the thump but if trouble looked like brewing then they were to get to Barry, calm him down and then get him off the ground.
I remember during the game looking down and realising that nearly all of those players were either out injured or sitting on the sidelines.

[AndrewP6]

Getting back to Barry's trouble against North. I know for a fact that certain players were assigned preseason to 'look after' Barry if trouble sprung up during a game.

Not look after him as in go the thump but if trouble looked like brewing then they were to get to Barry, calm him down and then get him off the ground.
I remember during the game looking down and realising that nearly all of those players were either out injured or sitting on the sidelines.

Which certain players? Go on, pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeease....