The enigmatic Daniel Cross

[BulldogBelle]

The enigmatic Daniel Cross
When I think of Daniel Cross I think of an enigma - something puzzling, inexplicable and contradictory.

Here we have an immensely talented, courageous and often inspirational player with a determination to succeed without rival. In each match he usually racks up dozens of disposals and is usually listed amongst the best. He has an unsurpassed ability to be where the ball is, rather than where it isn't and he has great awareness in that he knows where his teammates are so that he can shoot out a lightening hand-pass. He is an adequate mark and generally very accurate with his disposal. He rarely has a bad game, the NAB cup game last week was his worst ever; if he plays until he is 93 he will never have such a bad game.

He plays in the midfield and it is here for me that the enigma lies. My vision of a midfielder is of one who can quickly get the ball away from the stoppages, one who has pace and can run around his rivals, go for running bounces, a long penetrating kick or at least one who can hit a forward target lace out with a fast kick.

Daniel Cross is none of this, he can't kick further than a few meters, he can't run fast and seems to have practically no evasive skills. He is not a great tagger. He often seems to be afraid to have a shot at goal. I don't like his get and quick dish off by handpass, it seems to me that he should be capable of running the ball forward himself. However, having stated that I believe he corrected that situation somewhat last year. Sure he gets a lot of possessions, but wouldn't anybody who got half of the possessions do twice as much with them?

So, fellow posters please educate me as to exactly what is Daniel Cross's role in the team. Cross seems to get most of his possessions in the back half of centre.

1. Is he a defensive midfielder? Is 'Defensive Midfielder' a position?
2. Are there other defensive midfielders like him in the AFL? Do other teams have their version of Cross?
3. Is Cross a one-off?
4. What sort of job is he given from week to week?
5. Would he be better suited to a back pocket? Isn't he good enough to succeed at it?
6. Seems like Tom Liberatore is similar to Cross only better as Libba can also kick and evade and run, will Libba take Cross's job?
7. Would Cross be concerned about Libba and maybe even Wallis taking over his role?
8. Are there Forward midfielders?
9. When selecting their best teams a lot of people put Cross on a wing. But Cross can't run? So why? Is there a wing position any more?
10. Why did Cross play badly in the NAB cup, its not like him at all?

[soupman]

At risk of derailing the thread your post reminds me of this:

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[AndrewP6]

This one's in the too hard basket. It's late, and I've had a few. I'll defer to other WOOFers for the time being.

[Before I Die]

I have always admired Cross as a player and clearly so do the coaching staff from his B&F placings. However, since I watched Leigh Brown run past him like he was standing still in the finals I have had grave concerns regarding his role in our future. This concern was further fuelled in the NAB cup game where I felt he was getting some of his possessions because the opposition were sitting off him, like most teams do with Zac Dawson, hoping he would receive the ball and then cough it up with his poor disposal. The classic example of this was Gia's sideways pass to him on attacking 50 followed by Crossy's left foot grubber into the 50 metre zone.
What I hope for is Cross to maintain his passion and form and for Libba or Wallis to improve quickly to the point where they surpass him and take his place in the team.

[Ghost Dog]

I have always admired Cross as a player and clearly so do the coaching staff from his B&F placings. However, since I watched Leigh Brown run past him like he was standing still in the finals I have had grave concerns regarding his role in our future. This concern was further fuelled in the NAB cup game where I felt he was getting some of his possessions because the opposition were sitting off him, like most teams do with Zac Dawson, hoping he would receive the ball and then cough it up with his poor disposal. The classic example of this was Gia's sideways pass to him on attacking 50 followed by Crossy's left foot grubber into the 50 metre zone.
What I hope for is Cross to maintain his passion and form and for Libba or Wallis to improve quickly to the point where they surpass him and take his place in the team.

With roatations as they are, specialized players will really need a bit more flexibility, yes?
A midfielder who can penetrate accurately with passes can cover lack of depth in your back half. in a bind; that's an issue with your specialist in-an-under player who, well, can't kick longish.
Admire him and love him as I do, I know a lot of opposition supporters will bring up his disposal first time his name comes up.

[boydogs]

I don't know what it is about Cross that makes him so slow. He's one centimetre shorter than Griff, and the same weight. Sometimes I think he works better when not given the chance to overthink, but he is definitely slow running in a straight line.

Maybe try adding 3-4kg's to his frame to build his power?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Still think playing Cross and Boyd in the same side often does more harm than good.

Elite runner, but his severe lack of pace means he's unable to perform tagging roles. I don't consider him a particularly smart player, primarily because he continually makes the same mistakes. IE. Playing on and dancing on the spot, running around to his left side to kick the ball when he's average on his right. He's very brave and a strong mark, whilst obviously having the ability to accumulate possessions.

His role is to be in and under at every pack. The thing is, Boyd is a better clearance player than Cross, and they share other similarities too - which means we have two of the same. Against the top sides, it kills us. This may be part of why Boyd has tried to turn himself into an offensive weapon - unsuccessfully might I add.

Sounds harsh, but it's the way I see it, despite Cross being a good player.

[stefoid]

You can list all the things you think cross is not, but you know what he is?

Effective!

In the link below, I looked at a bunch of indicators for effectiveness, such as how often the player was involved in a play which resulted in a shot on goal, how many effective tackles and 1%ers etc. Guess what?

Cross was at the top or in the top 4 for almost every category of effectiveness I could think of, both offensively and defensively.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=662615

[Mantis]

Some good discussion in this thread and not much that can be argued with. (but I bet SS will -- if he can be bothered)

I was extremely surprised when I noticed that Jon Ralph listed him as one of our better players in our game v Geelong, but then when you see that he had 14 touches you can see why. However if he had looked at his efficiency rating and noticed that this was under 40% you could good see that many of these touches were ineffectual & wasted.

I too am confused about his role in the team. He regularly lines up on the wing, but plays as an inside mid as he has no real outside game, but I guess just because he doesn't start as an 'inside' mid doesn't mean he doesn't play this role once he is allowed to move around, but with our outside game being a real area of concern I would love to see an outside player (or atleast a player who can hurt the opposition going forward) playing in this position.

He did some pretty good run with roles at certain points last year, but as explained his lack of pace means he is limited to the types he can play on, but Ling isn't quick either and up until he was showed up late last year he was the best run with player going around, and yes his tactics are illegal, but he does what he has to stay relevant... Crossy is as fair as they come, but may need to step a little closer to the 'annnoying prick' line to play the tagger role (if that's the role we see for him).

I guess how he plays over the next few weeks is irrelevant, but I will watch with keen interest to the roles that he and his captain play this year. Personally I can't see us improving if we allow these 2 to continue playing attacking roles within the team (especially against the other top 4 teams). Improvement will still come from the likes of Ward, Higgins, Cooney, Grant, Wood, etc.. but I am not sure that it will be enough.

But the season is still 4 weeks away so we will just have to wait and see.

[always right]

Sometimes a player's worth is difficult to quantify. Whenever you analyse Crossy's positives and negatives you end up wondering how he gets a game each week. It's happened ever since he joined the club. Hell I wrote him off very early in his career....now he's just about my favourite player.

How do you quantify the effect on the team every time he backs into a pack without hesitation....every time. The effect when his desparation prevents the opposition from taking the ball away? Amongst all the statistics does anyone capture the difficulty of the circumstance in which he gains posession? Sure they capture contested posessions but it hardly reflects some of the situations where Crossy manages to get hold of the footy and feed it off to a team mate. I've lost count of the number of times he has won posession when he simply had no right to.

People cite last year's final when Leigh Brown ran past him , almost embarrassed that the big lug outsprinted one of our midfielders. Yet I reckon there would be plenty of opposition supporters who wonder how Crossy manages to continually win contests in situations where he is competing with much bigger bodies...against blokes like Leigh Brown who are expected to be far too powerful.

A successful team has lots of components. If you break a team down player by player you'll inevitably come up with a list of players you consider weak links. Sometimes you simply need to accept that team chemistry is often as important as individual talent. I reckon our blokes like playing with Crossy....they appreciate his courage and competitiveness.....the way he sacrifices himself to bring others into the game. When things aren't going well on the field Crossy is a constant, his effort never wanes, you can depend on him doing everything he can for the team. I reckon that counts for something.

[Sockeye Salmon]

You know me well, Mantis.

I could have a real crack but I can't be bothered, I'll just keep it to one or two points.



The single main reason Cross is a superstar is in the stat "Starting scoring chains". Cross leads the league in getting the first ball that ultimately leads to a score.

Cooney is faster, Griffen is more exciting, Higgins is prettier; but if Cross didn't get the thing in the first place none of them would be anywhere near as effective as they are. I read in a match report once that Cross was responsible for possesion chains of more than 100 possesions over a course of a game, that is, 1/3 of all of our possesions that day were originally created by Daniel Cross winning the ball in the first place.


The single most important thing in footy is now, as it has always been, get the bloody thing; and Cross gets it for himself more often than anyone else we've got.

[Rance Fan]

Cross is always 1st to the ball and at the bottom of the pack. Sure rather him there rather than an opposition player!!

[Mofra]

Cooney is faster, Griffen is more exciting, Higgins is prettier; but if Cross didn't get the thing in the first place none of them would be anywhere near as effective as they are. I read in a match report once that Cross was responsible for possesion chains of more than 100 possesions over a course of a game, that is, 1/3 of all of our possesions that day were originally created by Daniel Cross winning the ball in the first place.


The single most important thing in footy is now, as it has always been, get the bloody thing; and Cross gets it for himself more often than anyone else we've got.
Interesting point - football went through a phase of uncontested football, but with fatigue more likely to set in and full ground presses, it is likely that we will see more contested football creep back into the game.
He is an elite ball winner with elite endurance - he could be one player who benefits greatly from the sub rule.

FWIW for the OP, I rate his marking ability highly - excellent mark for his size, especially shooting his arms up out of a pack.

[Ghost Dog]

You know me well, Mantis.

I could have a real crack but I can't be bothered, I'll just keep it to one or two points.



The single main reason Cross is a superstar is in the stat "Starting scoring chains". Cross leads the league in getting the first ball that ultimately leads to a score.

Cooney is faster, Griffen is more exciting, Higgins is prettier; but if Cross didn't get the thing in the first place none of them would be anywhere near as effective as they are. I read in a match report once that Cross was responsible for possesion chains of more than 100 possesions over a course of a game, that is, 1/3 of all of our possesions that day were originally created by Daniel Cross winning the ball in the first place.


The single most important thing in footy is now, as it has always been, get the bloody thing; and Cross gets it for himself more often than anyone else we've got.


Ok nice post. So does that clear it up JC? He's a ball ferret.


http://mm.afl.com.au/Portals/0/images_bulldogs/cross_williams_462.jpg

Not to mention a hero in HK!

[Mantis]

A successful team has lots of components. If you break a team down player by player you'll inevitably come up with a list of players you consider weak links. Sometimes you simply need to accept that team chemistry is often as important as individual talent. I reckon our blokes like playing with Crossy....they appreciate his courage and competitiveness.....the way he sacrifices himself to bring others into the game. When things aren't going well on the field Crossy is a constant, his effort never wanes, you can depend on him doing everything he can for the team. I reckon that counts for something.

Good point ar.

But in this (and the bits I've deleted) you haven't explained what his role is within the team which was one of the OP's main queries?

But I guess maybe that's being too simplistic and he doesn't need a defined role, perhaps his role as SS explained is ball gatherer.

[LostDoggy]

You're right, he isn't your standard pigeon holed player, which makes our game great. Speak to the man himself and he is under no illusions that he is not a Judd. But your point 9 is misleading saying he "can't run". Complete opposite applies here. He runs farther than Forest Gump, I can only assume you mean he can't run fast? Dennis Commetti summed him up best when he said "Daniel Cross, I love him, he is Chris Judd in ugg boots!"
9. When selecting their best teams a lot of people put Cross on a wing. But Cross can't run? So why? Is there a wing position any more?

[always right]

Good point ar.

But in this (and the bits I've deleted) you haven't explained what his role is within the team which was one of the OP's main queries?But I guess maybe that's being too simplistic and he doesn't need a defined role, perhaps his role as SS explained is ball gatherer.

IMO he is a link player who is particularly effective at feeding the ball out to our runners from stoppages and contests. What he certainly isn't is a finisher.

[Mantis]

IMO he is a link player who is particularly effective at feeding the ball out to our runners from stoppages and contests. What he certainly isn't is a finisher.

Certainly.

I guess what I and perhaps others see as being disappointing & frustrating is his inability to move the ball on quickly when it's his responsibility to do so. We quite often see him in open play or at a stopped play situation holding onto the ball for far too long while upfield the options are being covered. With our game style being all about fast ball movement he is most definitely a momentum killer.

The MC I would think would want him to move the ball on quickly, but his refusal to do so isn't helping us to improve as a team like we need to.

[LostDoggy]

You know me well, Mantis.

I could have a real crack but I can't be bothered, I'll just keep it to one or two points.



The single main reason Cross is a superstar is in the stat "Starting scoring chains". Cross leads the league in getting the first ball that ultimately leads to a score.

Cooney is faster, Griffen is more exciting, Higgins is prettier; but if Cross didn't get the thing in the first place none of them would be anywhere near as effective as they are. I read in a match report once that Cross was responsible for possesion chains of more than 100 possesions over a course of a game, that is, 1/3 of all of our possesions that day were originally created by Daniel Cross winning the ball in the first place.


The single most important thing in footy is now, as it has always been, get the bloody thing; and Cross gets it for himself more often than anyone else we've got.

The man is a superstar. You should've left it there, as no more explanation is needed if you actually watch the game.

[LostDoggy]

You know me well, Mantis.


The single main reason Cross is a superstar is in the stat "Starting scoring chains". Cross leads the league in getting the first ball that ultimately leads to a score.

Cooney is faster, Griffen is more exciting, Higgins is prettier; but if Cross didn't get the thing in the first place none of them would be anywhere near as effective as they are. I read in a match report once that Cross was responsible for possesion chains of more than 100 possesions over a course of a game, that is, 1/3 of all of our possesions that day were originally created by Daniel Cross winning the ball in the first place.



Hit the nail on the head, I couldnt have expresssed my feelings on the matter any better.

[always right]

Certainly.

I guess what I and perhaps others see as being disappointing & frustrating is his inability to move the ball on quickly when it's his responsibility to do so. We quite often see him in open play or at a stopped play situation holding onto the ball for far too long while upfield the options are being covered. With our game style being all about fast ball movement he is most definitely a momentum killer.

The MC I would think would want him to move the ball on quickly, but his refusal to do so isn't helping us to improve as a team like we need to.

I think the key is for our blokes to run in support. Whenever Cross gets the ball there needs to be someone running past or calling for the ball over the top. Crossy in open play on his own simply doesn't have the penetration to hurt the opposition. Play to his strengths and work hard to be the next link in the chain.

[Go_Dogs]

I think the key is for our blokes to run in support. Whenever Cross gets the ball there needs to be someone running past or calling for the ball over the top. Crossy in open play on his own simply doesn't have the penetration to hurt the opposition. Play to his strengths and work hard to be the next link in the chain.

The problem being Crossy is one of our hardest working players to get to space to create an option and receive the ball, and therefore is often alone with no target in the immediate vicinity. Perhaps someone will always have to follow him into space to receive the feed. Even if it does draw a second opposition player (the target's direct opponent) Crossy can probably beat them both and then handball off to the target! :D

[Maddog37]

He may be good etc but you cannot help but wonder how long before the kids overtake him.

[stefoid]

With only 3 on the bench, Boyd and Cross will be spending more time on the ground so the racehorses can still have their frequent resty-poos.

[BulldogBelle]

He may be good etc but you cannot help but wonder how long before the kids overtake him.

We have not seen enough of the kids to make a definitive judgement regarding if and when they will overtake him. Let's assume for argument's sake that by round 11 this year both are burning (as we would love them to be) and the circumstance arises that it seems as though Cross is now playing second fiddle. Can Cross play in the back pocket?

People will say that Cross will not succeed in the BP because he can't kick far enough and he will not be able to run the ball out, but I say that Cross will succeed but in his own style. For example, Gordon Casey was a great BP player for us. He wasn't fast and Cross is a better player.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

The single main reason Cross is a superstar is in the stat "Starting scoring chains". Cross leads the league in getting the first ball that ultimately leads to a score.

Cooney is faster, Griffen is more exciting, Higgins is prettier; but if Cross didn't get the thing in the first place none of them would be anywhere near as effective as they are. I read in a match report once that Cross was responsible for possesion chains of more than 100 possesions over a course of a game, that is, 1/3 of all of our possesions that day were originally created by Daniel Cross winning the ball in the first place.

Some good points made, but Cross is no superstar IMO. He's a good player, and as you've highlighted, very good at winning the football - but the game isn't just about getting your hands on it. You've got to be able to dispose of it, and that isn't Cross' strong suit. He needs to play within his limitations more.

The only superstar we have is Lake.

Cooney and Griffen are stars, but still have to prove themselves a little more. Particularly the former in big games. Griff needs to nail the important goals.



People will say that Cross will not succeed in the BP because he can't kick far enough and he will not be able to run the ball out, but I say that Cross will succeed but in his own style. For example, Gordon Casey was a great BP player for us. He wasn't fast and Cross is a better player.

Cross is far too slow to play any type of defensive role such as a BP. He would be absolutely killed in this type of role, especially on the lead.

[mjp]

1. Is he a defensive midfielder? Is 'Defensive Midfielder' a position?

Defensive midfielder is a position in some sides, not in ours. So no, he isn't one of those.


2. Are there other defensive midfielders like him in the AFL? Do other teams have their version of Cross?

He isn't really a defensive mid - but most sides have a Cross-equivalent...not necessarily in skill set, but more in commitment and attitude. A player who is far greater than the sum of the parts but can often be seen for what they can't do rather than what they can.

To me, another example of this is former WCE Rowan Jones. Dismissed by supporters across the land, he was the player who enabled Judd/Cousins/Kerr et al to run goal-side of the contest at stoppages and take the glory. His retirement - not necessarily the troubles of Cousins - spelt doom for them in 2007.


3. Is Cross a one-off?

His running ability is unique...so is his marking ability (and his kicking ability). Maybe.


4. What sort of job is he given from week to week?

Win the ball. Give it too Adam. Push back and help the defenders. Provide a kick-too target for the backs to switch too.


5. Would he be better suited to a back pocket? Isn't he good enough to succeed at it?

Back pocket would be bad. Too slow and can't hit targets by foot. Half forward who can lead up all day (endurance) take a mark and dish off? Maybe now you are on to something.


6. Seems like Tom Liberatore is similar to Cross only better as Libba can also kick and evade and run, will Libba take Cross's job?

Libber Jnr has not played a game and Crossy was RU B&F last year. Let's not get carried away just yet...but I would imagine if there is a succession plan for players those two names would both be in the midfield.


7. Would Cross be concerned about Libba and maybe even Wallis taking over his role?

No. He is a leader and a professional. He would be concerned about winning.


8. Are there Forward midfielders?

Yes. We have one of those - Gia. Didak is another good example.


9. When selecting their best teams a lot of people put Cross on a wing. But Cross can't run? So why? Is there a wing position any more?

No, Wing doesn't exist. People put him there because he regularly starts outside the square and naming the side in the traditional way makes sense to everyone.


10. Why did Cross play badly in the NAB cup, its not like him at all?

He didn't really play that badly. He won a heap of the ball but made a few bad decisions...it is FEBRUARY.

[LostDoggy]

B&F winner, always in top 5, play maker..........etc etc etc

What is the point of this thread?????????????

Champion

[Bulldog Revolution]

B&F winner, always in top 5, play maker..........etc etc etc

What is the point of this thread?????????????

Champion

It seems to me its about discussing Crossys role in the side

Nobody is arguing about his career achievements, more discussing what role he might play in a Premiership Bulldogs team, which I consider more important than his future performances in B&F's

Watching the pre-season it seems to me that his kicking has improved, and his confidence in his left foot is high, but he is still taking to look to get the ball moving at times, which is frustrating

[Ghost Dog]

I'm not sure what other role he CAN play other than the one he does very very well.
To get his hands on that ball, anyway he can and quickly dish it out. He is a great overhead mark for his size, but where else would he go?

[Maddog37]

He could play as a high forward and run his opponents up and down the ground until they cannot run any more. Sort of as a defensive forward.

[Greystache]

He could play as a high forward and run his opponents up and down the ground until they cannot run any more. Sort of as a defensive forward.

I too think this could be a good role for Cross should our young mids come on the way we hope. His work rate to provide a leading target would be valuable, he's got good marking skills for his size, can beat most in the second effort stakes, plus he's actually a pretty decent set shot for goal if he'd just back himself.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I too think this could be a good role for Cross should our young mids come on the way we hope. His work rate to provide a leading target would be valuable, he's got good marking skills for his size, can beat most in the second effort stakes, plus he's actually a pretty decent set shot for goal if he'd just back himself.

He would be put to the sword on the rebound though, and considering we're already slow to apply defensive pressure in our forward half, Cross would only compound the problem.

[LostDoggy]

It seems to me its about discussing Crossys role in the side

Nobody is arguing about his career achievements, more discussing what role he might play in a Premiership Bulldogs team, which I consider more important than his future performances in B&F'sWatching the pre-season it seems to me that his kicking has improved, and his confidence in his left foot is high, but he is still taking to look to get the ball moving at times, which is frustrating


I think if we dont win it this year then he wont play in a Premiership Bulldogs team.

[Go_Dogs]

He would be put to the sword on the rebound though, and considering we're already slow to apply defensive pressure in our forward half, Cross would only compound the problem.

Agree, could be exposed massively against the quick, evasive hbf types of the modern game and struggle to get to contests quick enough if not in his immediate vicinity.

Midfield is definitely still his best spot. If he can get himself involved in more blocking, creative handball putting runners in space from the bottom of packs etc he can still be a very dangerous commodity, especially if he continues to work on staying defensive at the same time. The new sub rule will also help him, I think he'll have another good year.

[Greystache]

He would be put to the sword on the rebound though, and considering we're already slow to apply defensive pressure in our forward half, Cross would only compound the problem.

No worse than Johnson, Higgins, and Gia have done. Gia's slow too, and Higgins and Johnson have simply refused to defend, at least Cross would make the effort, and he's arguably our best tackler.

[ReLoad]

Luke ball was slower than the eastern free-way at 8.30am on a weekday, and yet the pies used his skills perfectly, no reason cross doesn't take a similar role.

Daniel Cross is an integral part of this team, and unless we magically find players who are just as good at in and under and can break a line like Cooney, then he stays.

[azabob]

No worse than Johnson, Higgins, and Gia have done. Gia's slow too, and Higgins and Johnson have simply refused to defend, at least Cross would make the effort, and he's arguably our best tackler.

Fair points, but Gia and Higgins now are more likely to hurt the opposition with their foot skills.

To be a high leading forward I would think you'd also need an initial burst of pace, but as others have said his a very very strong overhead mark.

[Greystache]

Fair points, but Gia and Higgins now are more likely to hurt the opposition with their foot skills.

To be a high leading forward I would think you'd also need an initial burst of pace, but as others have said his a very very strong overhead mark.

You do to get separation if marking on the lead is your bread and butter, but in the case of Cross, if he doesn't take a mark on the lead, so long as he brings it to ground I'd back him to win out in a one on one contest.

It's a hypothetical anyway as we'd need several midfielders to step up before we looks at other roles for Cross.

[Go_Dogs]

No worse than Johnson, Higgins, and Gia have done. Gia's slow too, and Higgins and Johnson have simply refused to defend, at least Cross would make the effort, and he's arguably our best tackler.

True, but it's an area we need to improve in. Replacing one plodder with another doesn't do that.

[stefoid]

It seems to me its about discussing Crossys role in the side

Nobody is arguing about his career achievements, more discussing what role he might play in a Premiership Bulldogs team, which I consider more important than his future performances in B&F's

Watching the pre-season it seems to me that his kicking has improved, and his confidence in his left foot is high, but he is still taking to look to get the ball moving at times, which is frustrating

He kicks it about 5 times a game.

The simple fact is he is one of the top 3 in being involved in scoring chains at the club, PLUS he is one of the best defensive players at the club. The aim of the game is to score and restrict the opposition from scoring, is it not?

[Doc26]

To me, another example of this is former WCE Rowan Jones. Dismissed by supporters across the land, he was the player who enabled Judd/Cousins/Kerr et al to run goal-side of the contest at stoppages and take the glory. His retirement - not necessarily the troubles of Cousins - spelt doom for them in 2007.


This observation from MJP keeps ringing home to me on the value Cross should still bring us in 2011. That is, his value around the stoppages to critically get first hands on the ball and then to (hopefully) effectively get it out to the likes of Cooney, Griff and now Sherman will be a key element to any success we have this year, not too dissimilar to the role a Luke Ball will have in getting it out to Swan, Pendlebury etc or even an ageing Hayes to Dal, Montagna etc. My main concern with Cross and Boyd is still with their lack of accountability to the damage their opponents do when going the other way. This point is the one I truly hope will be addressed as the year unfolds.

[LostDoggy]

Cross would be a walk up start in any team IMO.

He is better then what some of you give him credit for.

I would take him over Captain turnover anyday

[always right]

Cross would be a walk up start in any team IMO.

He is better then what some of you give him credit for.

I would take him over Captain turnover anyday

Christ!....the season hasn't started and you're already bagging the captain. It's going to be a long year.:rolleyes:

[bornadog]

Bump!

Cross played on Fisher tonight and I thought he did ok, basically negated him. What did Woofers think of this move by the coach?

[GVGjr]

Bump!

Cross played on Fisher tonight and I thought he did ok, basically negated him. What did Woofers think of this move by the coach?

I like the idea of Cross playing as a defensive forward especially with this type of match-up.
Good plan by Eade.

[always right]

Thought it was a pretty honest performance in a negating role. Fisher normally kills us. Should have kicked that goal in the last qtr....but then again, he got closer than Griff.

[KT31]

Thought it was a pretty honest performance in a negating role. Fisher normally kills us. Should have kicked that goal in the last qtr....but then again, he got closer than Griff.

Agree, love Crossy and finding him another role in the team might just allow us to keep him in with Libba and Wallace.
Still think we need to change our game plan or find some pace to take the pressure of the ball carriers.

[The Pie Man]

I liked the Cross as a defensive forward theory before tonight. A couple of problems emerge in execution.

1. Inconsistent hands - we tried to go through him and he turned it over

2. Poor disposal

I'll leave it at that, as I'm very very very angry and close to over it

[SonofScray]

Will need to watch the game again I suppose but my impressions on the night were that he was poor. I observed a handful of really poor decisions and skill errors which for mine he simply cannot afford to be making. He is still courageous as all hell. We have enough kids who are hard at it, we have a solid fleet of foot soldiers. We need to start using the ones that can execute well.

I don't want to hang the guy because I rate what he has produced as a Bulldog and he may get a chance to refresh things a bit as a genuine stopper but I am not sure we should persist with him now.

[The Pie Man]

Will need to watch the game again I suppose but my impressions on the night were that he was poor. I observed a handful of really poor decisions and skill errors which for mine he simply cannot afford to be making. He is still courageous as all hell. We have enough kids who are hard at it, we have a solid fleet of foot soldiers. We need to start using the ones that can execute well.

I don't want to hang the guy because I rate what he has produced as a Bulldog and he may get a chance to refresh things a bit as a genuine stopper but I am not sure we should persist with him now.

Maybe not the best time for me to post, but I agree with SoS, and I ask myself 'will he help us move forward?'

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Sentiment should be thrown out the window.

It's simple; Cross is not good enough anymore. His decline has been gradual from a couple of years ago, but I feel this year has proven it moreso. Beena good player for the club, but like many of his team mates, he's done.

[SlimPickens]

I was disappointed in Cross's work rate across half forward tonight and that is something I have never said about Daniel Cross. Yes he shut down fisher well, but he didn't make enough effort to be an option across half forward.

[Greystache]

I was disappointed in Cross's work rate across half forward tonight and that is something I have never said about Daniel Cross. Yes he shut down fisher well, but he didn't make enough effort to be an option across half forward.

Agreed, I don't know whether it was because he didn't know where to present, just had a down day, or if he just didn't really want to be the one with the ball in his hands having to then kick to a target, but I expected to see lead after lead after lead from Cross but it didn't happen. I thought with Cross playing across half forward we'd at least have someone always presenting, but he seemed more focused on defending.

[Jasper]

Agreed, I don't know whether it was because he didn't know where to present, just had a down day, or if he just didn't really want to be the one with the ball in his hands having to then kick to a target, but I expected to see lead after lead after lead from Cross but it didn't happen. I thought with Cross playing across half forward we'd at least have someone always presenting, but he seemed more focused on defending.

I think Daniel may have been asked to play a defensive job on Fisher, I think, so you are right, he was playing as a defensive forward.

Daniel Cross is what he is. Hard worker. Slow runner. Reasonable handballer. Poor kick. Hard at it. Poor decision maker.

A club can carry a couple of these players. Off the top of my head, we have...

Boyd
Cross
Addison
Picken

When combined with other slowish players like Libba, Wallis, Higgins, Gia, etc

Unless he is contracted or we lose other similar players, I would doubt he will be playing next year. One of my favourite players over the years, team orientated, plays within his limitations, trys and runs his guts out week in, week out.

[craigsahibee]

We do not seem to be able to maintain any momentum when we go through Crossy anymore. We all know he is reluctant to kick and we just do not have the runners going past anymore to receive his handball's, which today are more often than not missing the target. Crossy's first instict is to go lateral to runners who aren't there. By the time he has made up his mind, all available options are covered. Maybe he has been let down by his team-mates and their lack of run and work rate, but sadly I think it's all over for him from next year.

The future is definately with Wallis, Ward and Libba with the likes of Howard breaking the lines with his run

[chef]

Stick a fork in him IMO. Sadly the game has passed him by

He doesn't seem to go in as hard anymore(his strength) and spends far too long lying on the ground.

[GVGjr]

Calls for Cross to be dropped and de-listed seem way too premature as far as I am concerned.
We can get a lot more out of him and I thought he was an effective player last night.

[LostDoggy]

Bump!

Cross played on Fisher tonight and I thought he did ok, basically negated him. What did Woofers think of this move by the coach?

The fish is a good player, this move was one of several good moves by Rodney in my opinion. Leg speed is over rated, hard work is more important. Better disposal is necessary too, hard to see him retain this role if he can't snag one occasionally.

[LostDoggy]

Thought his three goal turnaround was brilliant from a senior player.

[Dogmatic]

Will need to watch the game again I suppose but my impressions on the night were that he was poor. I observed a handful of really poor decisions and skill errors which for mine he simply cannot afford to be making. He is still courageous as all hell. We have enough kids who are hard at it, we have a solid fleet of foot soldiers. We need to start using the ones that can execute well.

I don't want to hang the guy because I rate what he has produced as a Bulldog and he may get a chance to refresh things a bit as a genuine stopper but I am not sure we should persist with him now.


Good post. I totally agree

[Scorlibo]

Calls for Cross to be dropped and de-listed seem way too premature as far as I am concerned.
We can get a lot more out of him and I thought he was an effective player last night.

I agree, and I think we need to persist with Cross in this role, although Rocket Eade said in his presser after the match that he has been given a midfield defensive role each week and that this week was no different, except that Fisher played a fair bit down back which is why we saw Cross forward. His instructions were to just follow Fisher wherever. My only criticism on the night was that there were maybe three of four instances where Cross was completely out-positioned in the marking contests. Fisher is a very good mark of the ball, but I would have expected Crossy to put a bit more body on him in several situations.

I get really disgruntled when the inevitable, 'unfortunately the game has passed him by...' line comes out. Most of the time it's used on players who have never been favourites (Hahn, Cross) but have proven themselves high quality players and escaped criticism in years past. Yet a small slip in form and the sharks emerge, they smell blood and go in for the kill. I only wish some of these sharks would be honest with themselves and accept that they will never be happy with the likes of Cross in the team. Short-term memory and impatience.

[Maddog37]

Crossy needs to move from being a core part of the team to being more of a depth/foot soldier type role moving forward IMO.

He is a valuable member of the side still but needs to move to a lesser role.

[Topdog]

Calls for Cross to be dropped and de-listed seem way too premature as far as I am concerned.
We can get a lot more out of him and I thought he was an effective player last night.

Agree and disagree. He has become quite effective at being a defensive stopper and that is a good thing. However we aren't winning games this year and we aren't playing finals so I wouldn't mind getting as many games as possible into the young guys.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Agree and disagree. He has become quite effective at being a defensive stopper and that is a good thing. However we aren't winning games this year and we aren't playing finals so I wouldn't mind getting as many games as possible into the young guys.

We can hardly fit any more young guys in.

[bornadog]

I get really disgruntled when the inevitable, 'unfortunately the game has passed him by...' line comes out. Most of the time it's used on players who have never been favourites (Hahn, Cross) but have proven themselves high quality players and escaped criticism in years past. Yet a small slip in form and the sharks emerge, they smell blood and go in for the kill. I only wish some of these sharks would be honest with themselves and accept that they will never be happy with the likes of Cross in the team. Short-term memory and impatience.

so bloody true

[Topdog]

We can hardly fit any more young guys in.

Currently yes but if Cooney, Lake and Hall come back I wouldn't object to Cross being made to sit a week or 2 out in Willi.

I'd like to see us basically use a rotation system for the rest of the year where by both seniors and juniors spend time at Willi. Or for the seniors just rest their body if needed.

1st up for me would be Jones. I'd love to see him go back to Willi for 2 weeks and get some good results and confidence.

[ledge]

He has been used as a tagger more this year and I dont think he is one, he is more a get in and under player but with young Libber coming in he is being groomed for that role.
Thus Daniel isnt getting the ball as much.

[Desipura]

I thought he's only chance to prolong his career was as a tagger, he is cooked unfortunately!

[LostDoggy]

Sentiment should be thrown out the window.

It's simple; Cross is not good enough anymore. His decline has been gradual from a couple of years ago, but I feel this year has proven it moreso. Beena good player for the club, but like many of his team mates, he's done.

I certainly support your opinion with this one TBB.

If we are setting ourselves up for the future, sentiment has to go at our club. It is no use trying to find a useful spot at the Bulldogs when Boyd is now the "in & under" player and Picken is the tagger.

If we want to see a team that is quick and skillful, there really isnt a spot for Cross if the other two are in the team.

[the banker]

Cross is a player without penetration. His instinct is to stop and go laterally or backwards because his kicking is so weak. The game seems to stop when he gets it. When everyone around him is moving fast with confidence he can be a pivot but given where the team is ATM I think he may be clogging.

James Cuming's initial post has even more relevance now. What is Daniel's role going forward? Not significant I would think.

[always right]

1st up for me would be Jones. I'd love to see him go back to Willi for 2 weeks and get some good results and confidence.

Could not disagree more. Sure his kicking lacks penetration but I know there's plenty of work going on to improve this area. I don't think he lacks confidence at all and he now goes for his marks with real intent. Finals are gone and Jones is exactly the type of player we need to persevere with.

[Pickenitup]

I am very surprised people want Jones out He is Our Future and he must be played.
In regards to Crossy i think we should retain him as he sets a great example to the younger players
but he should be told to expect to spend alot of time at Willi Next year pretty similar to what Tuck is doing at Richmond.

[Topdog]

Could not disagree more. Sure his kicking lacks penetration but I know there's plenty of work going on to improve this area. I don't think he lacks confidence at all and he now goes for his marks with real intent. Finals are gone and Jones is exactly the type of player we need to persevere with.

The dropped mark and 2 massive misses in a 5 minute period suggest that he is lacking confidence.

I love what I have seen from him and am expecting a great career for him, just rather that he come back into the side with some goals to his name at Willy

[always right]

The dropped mark and 2 massive misses in a 5 minute period suggest that he is lacking confidence.

I love what I have seen from him and am expecting a great career for him, just rather that he come back into the side with some goals to his name at Willy

The 2 massive misses suggest he has a weakness in his kicking. The dropped mark was poor but if we dropped everyone who fumbled last night, we would not be fielding a team. Jones has been a positive this year......we should be developing him in the seniors not the VFL.

[Topdog]

What I am suggesting isn't dropping him though. He is a young kid and has played the last 7 weeks in the seniors. Playing 15+ games is plenty for development. 4 or 5 should be plenty for confidence / easing the workload on his body.

[LostDoggy]

Malthouse had a good discussion on radio about the tagger on backman. Basically discussed the issues Shaw had with a tagger. Malthouse basically said that if your tagged so be and just get on with playing your normal role. Either way for Malthouse it was a win win as if Shaw was stopped so was the player tagging him as basically the forward line for the opposition was one short and it was one less forward Malthouse had to worry about. Therefore Malthouse just said to Shaw you just need play the best you can for the team and not worry about being tagged as he was not fussed. Of course now Shaw is starring and no tagger can stop him.

Whilst Fisher may have less of an influence in the Game Cross basically had none up forward. Is this a win for the team. I don't think it is as a couple of goals from an actual forward would have won us the game. You make Fisher accountable by winning the ball.

I thought playing Cross on Fisher was a negative move. I also thought the MC are desperate to keep Cross in the side and are inventing positions for him.

If Cross was Pacey like King for Richmond there would be a spot in the side because Pace will always cause pressure. Just take a look at Rioli and how many tackles and run downs he gets a game. Point is if your slow your a liability to the side and in a foot race I would hazard a guess that Cross would be the slowest player in the team even lining up against Hudson.

Unfortunately there are no positions for Cross to play. Maybe a Sub could now be his spot?

[Scorlibo]

I thought playing Cross on Fisher was a negative move. I also thought the MC are desperate to keep Cross in the side and are inventing positions for him.

Unfortunately there are no positions for Cross to play. Maybe a Sub could now be his spot?

Sorry but this is ridiculous, Daniel Cross remains one of our best and most consistent performers.

His role on Friday night was not a result of some inability to perform in his usual position through the midfield. When he has played midfield this year every indicator suggests that he is playing just as well there as he has for six years previously. The only reason he is attempting new roles is because of our wealth of young midfield talent coming through and the resultant positional congestion foreseeable in the not too distant future.

By Supercoach points (the best unbiased indicator available):

1. M Boyd: 116.1
2. R Griffen: 111.5
3. D Cross: 94.8
4. W Minson: 89.6
5. R Murphy: 87.9
6. B Hudson: 85.7
7. S Higgins: 81.1
8. T Liberatore: 80.7
9. C Ward: 80.6
10. D Giansiracusa: 80.3

This would suggest that Cross is behind only Boyd, Griffen, Murphy and Morris in a list of our best players.

So, you think our fifth best performer has no role to play?

[LostDoggy]

Sorry but this is ridiculous, Daniel Cross remains one of our best and most consistent performers.

His role on Friday night was not a result of some inability to perform in his usual position through the midfield. When he has played midfield this year every indicator suggests that he is playing just as well there as he has for six years previously. The only reason he is attempting new roles is because of our wealth of young midfield talent coming through and the resultant positional congestion foreseeable in the not too distant future.

By Supercoach points (the best unbiased indicator available):

1. M Boyd: 116.1
2. R Griffen: 111.5
3. D Cross: 94.8
4. W Minson: 89.6
5. R Murphy: 87.9
6. B Hudson: 85.7
7. S Higgins: 81.1
8. T Liberatore: 80.7
9. C Ward: 80.6
10. D Giansiracusa: 80.3

This would suggest that Cross is behind only Boyd, Griffen, Murphy and Morris in a list of our best players.

So, you think our fifth best performer has no role to play?

You say Potato, I say Potahto. One question, if Cross is doing do well then why move him at all? Why not move Ward or some other Mid who is not performing as well? Regardless of possessions he is to slow to apply defensive pressure. We get chopped up week in week out in the middle because we lack pace in the Middle and the slowest bloke there is?

[Scorlibo]

You say Potato, I say Potahto.

That expression applies where two people are effectively saying the same thing, just in a different manner. It does not apply here.


One question, if Cross is doing do well then why move him at all? Why not move Ward or some other Mid who is not performing as well?

Because Ward is part of the future. Between Ward, Cooney, Griffen, Higgins, Liberatore, Wallis and more we have an incredibly packed midfield group for the future. Cross' role change is a result of foresight in this regard, realising that when the above group do overtake him he will need to play elsewhere.


Regardless of possessions he is to slow to apply defensive pressure.

5.1 tackles per game represents his second best year from a defensive point of view. He has always been slow.


We get chopped up week in week out in the middle because we lack pace in the Middle and the slowest bloke there is?

It seems as though you're simply stating what Cross' perennial deficiencies are instead of offering your reasoning for thinking he has gone from our 2nd best player last year (by b+f results) to not even being part of our best 22 this year.

He has placed,

2nd - 2010
2nd - 2009
1st - 2008
9th - 2007 (Despite missing half the season)
3rd - 2006
2nd - 2005

in the Sutton Medal, and all this while still being a slow player. What has CHANGED so dramatically that could possibly justify your call to not play him?

[LostDoggy]

That expression applies where two people are effectively saying the same thing, just in a different manner. It does not apply here.



Because Ward is part of the future. Between Ward, Cooney, Griffen, Higgins, Liberatore, Wallis and more we have an incredibly packed midfield group for the future. Cross' role change is a result of foresight in this regard, realising that when the above group do overtake him he will need to play elsewhere.



5.1 tackles per game represents his second best year from a defensive point of view. He has always been slow.



It seems as though you're simply stating what Cross' perennial deficiencies are instead of offering your reasoning for thinking he has gone from our 2nd best player last year (by b+f results) to not even being part of our best 22 this year.

He has placed,

2nd - 2010
2nd - 2009
1st - 2008
9th - 2007 (Despite missing half the season)
3rd - 2006
2nd - 2005

in the Sutton Medal, and all this while still being a slow player. What has CHANGED so dramatically that could possibly justify your call to not play him?


If Cross is our second best player I will eat my hat. I justify not playing him because he is to slow, can't kick. No doubt he has been a good warrior for us but time waits for no one. You think he should stay and he may well just do that. But for me the game has changed and the slow distance runner types are not part of the future.

[Topdog]

By Supercoach points (the best unbiased indicator available):

1. M Boyd: 116.1
2. R Griffen: 111.5
3. D Cross: 94.8
4. W Minson: 89.6
5. R Murphy: 87.9
6. B Hudson: 85.7
7. S Higgins: 81.1
8. T Liberatore: 80.7
9. C Ward: 80.6
10. D Giansiracusa: 80.3


No seriously you did not just do and say that!

[Scorlibo]

If Cross is our second best player I will eat my hat. I justify not playing him because he is to slow, can't kick. No doubt he has been a good warrior for us but time waits for no one. You think he should stay and he may well just do that. But for me the game has changed and the slow distance runner types are not part of the future.

Yet he has been an integral part of our side in the very recent past? I cannot believe that the game has changed so much in the space of a year that Cross has fallen from being our second best player to our 30th best!


No seriously you did not just do and say that!

Would you like to have another go at providing a reasoned reply?

Champion Data's ranking system represents a system with more thought and more effort put into it than perhaps has ever been put into a sporting ranking system, worldwide. It has been quite unfortunately brought into disrepute by its association with the game of Supercoach, but the system remains the finest unbiased ranking system available, this is undeniable.

[Stefcep]

Yet he has been an integral part of our side in the very recent past? I cannot believe that the game has changed so much in the space of a year that Cross has fallen from being our second best player to our 30th best!

Would you like to have another go at providing a reasoned reply?



I'll have a go:

The players that made up for his deficiencies are either not playing or not in the same form eg Cooney, Eagleton, Gilbee, Hargreave, Harbrow: these are players that Cross could handball off to as they ran past, carry the ball with their better leg speed, and kick long.

Cross is and always will be a "grunt" player. i think we've had a tendancy to celebrate "grunt players" too much. Now Cross is being found out. Grunt players will get the ball, but they won't tick the scoreboard over.

[Topdog]

Wow you were actually serious. So Hudson and Gilbee have been in our top 12 players this year? Hudson is having as good a year as Scarlett?

[LostDoggy]

I'll have a go:

The players that made up for his deficiencies are either not playing or not in the same form eg Cooney, Eagleton, Gilbee, Hargreave, Harbrow: these are players that Cross could handball off to as they ran past, carry the ball with their better leg speed, and kick long.

Cross is and always will be a "grunt" player. i think we've had a tendancy to celebrate "grunt players" too much. Now Cross is being found out. Grunt players will get the ball, but they won't tick the scoreboard over.

Add to that we have an over abundance of Cross types in the side. Most of them are younger faster and still developing therefore he makes room for the new ball carriers coming in.

Hopefully the predator will be one of them to fill the role.

[Scorlibo]

I'll have a go:

The players that made up for his deficiencies are either not playing or not in the same form eg Cooney, Eagleton, Gilbee, Hargreave, Harbrow: these are players that Cross could handball off to as they ran past, carry the ball with their better leg speed, and kick long.

Cross is and always will be a "grunt" player. i think we've had a tendancy to celebrate "grunt players" too much. Now Cross is being found out. Grunt players will get the ball, but they won't tick the scoreboard over.

The bolded part I absolutely agree with. We love nothing more than a player who 'has a dig' and tend to dismiss those who look comparatively laconic. However, Cross deserves recognition beyond being just a 'grunt' player and in any case getting the ball and distributing it smartly would tick the scoreboard over as much as anything else.

I take your point about our lack of players with forward movement intent, Cross' influence may well have been negated by injuries to the penetrating players you mentioned, but shouldn't the concerns then be placed over the players who have replaced Cooney, Eagleton, Gilbee, Hargrave and Harbrow? It would seem as though Cross is procuring the ball from difficult situations as effectively as ever, and is suffering in a similar manner to how any inside midfielder would suffer from a decrease in lay-off options.


Wow you were actually serious. So Hudson and Gilbee have been in our top 12 players this year? Hudson is having as good a year as Scarlett?

Why would I be anything but serious? This is just a callous attempt at belittlement. I find it puzzling that we are not allowed to swear on these forums, yet we are allowed to utilise any number of phrases and tones which ultimately are more potent in personal attacks.

The rankings measure the influence a player has on the game by their direct contact with the football. They are not perfect, but they are the closest thing to.

I would wager that Hudson and Gilbee have indeed done enough with their influence on the ball to be considered among our best 12 this season in this respect. What the rankings do not do is account for the amount of opportunity each player gets to directly influence the football. Hudson as the ruckman gets a lot of opportunity to influence the movements of the football. Scarlett would get relatively few. Thus, to compare the two, we must compare where they sit among similar players:

Ruckmen to have played over half the season to round 11:

1. D Cox: 126.9
2. A Sandilands: 121.3
3. T Goldstein: 109.9
4. S Mumford: 108.4
5. B Ottens: 106.7
6. M Jamar: 102.0
7. B McEvoy: 96.0
8. M Leuenberger: 90.1
9. Z Smith: 89.8
10. W Minson: 89.7
11. D Brogan: 86.8
12. S Jacobs: 86.6
13. B Hudson: 85.7

[Sample size = 24]

So Hudson sits in the bottom 50% of this group, behind the leading ruckman at 12 clubs (nearly 75%), including, most significantly, our own leading ruckman - Minson.

Now Scarlett:

1. T Chaplin: 92.5
2. H Grundy: 89.4
3. J Gibson: 87.3
4. D Merrett: 86.1
4. S Thompson: 86.1
6. M Scarlett: 85.9

[Sample size = 47]

Thus, Scarlett sits roughly in the top 13% of this defensive group.

You might have noticed that when I posted the ranking data, I included Murphy and Morris above Cross, despite them being below him on the list. This is because I realised that the position they play influences their ranking.

[Topdog]

Anything that has Chaplin, Grundy and Gibson ahead of Scarlett deserves very little recognition.

It is a decent attempt by Champion Data but to suggest that anyone should put any thought into the results of their scores is absolute folly. Feel free to attack me but I was honestly staggered that anyone would use something that states Sam Fisher is the best defender in the comp as a way of making a point about a players worth.

[Scorlibo]

Anything that has Chaplin, Grundy and Gibson ahead of Scarlett deserves very little recognition.

Scarlett is a champion of the game, undoubtedly, but could you confidently put him ahead of Chaplin, Grundy and Gibson based purely on this season? Having not seen every game that these players have played in, I could base my judgment instead on hearsay and media hype over Scarlett, but I would much rather place my faith in something completely removed from the rumblings of the media and football forums, completely objective and unbiased.

Furthermore, in the instances I have seen Chaplin, Grundy and Gibson I have been very impressed, and I'm not surprised to see them ahead of Scarlett.


Feel free to attack me

I have not done so yet, and I don't intend to now.


I was honestly staggered

I don't doubt this, but you are an experienced poster around these parts and you must know that especially on this forum hoax posts are a supreme rarity, you knew that I was serious so your only reason to ask if I wasn't was to discredit my views.


that anyone would use something that states Sam Fisher is the best defender in the comp as a way of making a point about a players worth.

This is not really true, and is definitely an instance of Supercoach bringing these rankings into disrepute, the rankings state that Sam Fisher averages 110.5 points per game. However, St Kilda games so far this season would suggest that he has spent a large portion of time through the midfield, or as an attacking defender and cannot be compared to other defenders in the true sense of the position.

Out of curiosity, do you not rate Sam Fisher? On Friday night he took many telling marks and is one of the smarter and more effective players in the AFL at the moment I would have thought. Who would be your number one defender?

[Topdog]

Gibsons opponent last night kicked 6 goals.
Gibson got 86.

[w3design]

Regarding the role Cross played last night, the next day I heard Leigh Matthews discuss this. He commented that because Cross did not even really attempt to play as a forward, ie his sole focus was stopping Fisher, we effectively had only a 5 man forward line. In a forward line not endowed with stars, this was a serious weakness and he thought the saints would have been pretty happy wit this tactic as even though Fisher was to some degree nullified we were also disadvantaged.

This was on AW. They also discussed (including Brad Johnson) an incident at 3/4 time where they believed Cross was pleading his case with Rocket to be 'let off the lease' and put back on the ball. Apparently he was actually put back in the centre for the first bounce.

Just thought these were interesting observations, any thoughts, anyone?

[MrMahatma]

It seems every week/after every break we hear the coaches say "we handball too much/not kicking which is what we're instructing them to do".

I love what Cross has done over the past years, but we can't have him, Libba, Wallis, Ward, Boyd all playing in the same team. It's too slow and there's no silk. We're unlikely to drop our captain, so Cross should be in the gun, IMO. Can't kick. Refuses to. We've lost the run off HB so he can't give the handball around the back anymore - and handballing through the press isn't working/is against instructions.

I'd be a harsh call, I don't disagree, but I think he should be considered for a trade/depth player at best. Tough calls have to be made when you're transitioning, and the midfield would appear the one area we can afford to make those calls at the moment.

[Ghost Dog]

It seems every week/after every break we hear the coaches say "we handball too much/not kicking which is what we're instructing them to do".

I love what Cross has done over the past years, but we can't have him, Libba, Wallis, Ward, Boyd all playing in the same team. It's too slow and there's no silk. We're unlikely to drop our captain, so Cross should be in the gun, IMO. Can't kick. Refuses to. We've lost the run off HB so he can't give the handball around the back anymore - and handballing through the press isn't working/is against instructions.

I'd be a harsh call, I don't disagree, but I think he should be considered for a trade/depth player at best. Tough calls have to be made when you're transitioning, and the midfield would appear the one area we can afford to make those calls at the moment.

A few clubs might have a look at him, but most would not. Opposition supporters I've spoken to don't really rate him based on this season. Depth player - another rookie eg Mitch Hahn?

[Scorlibo]

Gibsons opponent last night kicked 6 goals.
Gibson got 86.

You're now using another, infinitely less complex and archaic statistic, to back up your argument against using statistics as an accurate measure?

[stefoid]

Cross is 2nd on the list behind Boyd for 'scoring involvement'. Being involved in a chain of possessions that results on a shot on goal. Ahead of Griffen and Ward and every other midfielder bar Boyd.

Also 2nd behind boyd for 'playmaker' = being the first guy in the chain of disposals that results in a shot on goal.

Hes our top midfielder for 1%ers and 3rd in the team for tackles.

OK, so he isnt the guy that gets the scoring assists or goals, but he does contribute to the scoreline by running all over the ground all day getting the job done, and plays a good defensive game at the same time.

Being slow is like being short or skinny. It doesnt mean anything in itself. You have to look at the whole package.

[Topdog]

You're now using another, infinitely less complex and archaic statistic, to back up your argument against using statistics as an accurate measure?

No I'm simply saying that you cannot rely on Champion Data rankings at all to tell you who is playing well.

[Ghost Dog]

Cross is 2nd on the list behind Boyd for 'scoring involvement'. Being involved in a chain of possessions that results on a shot on goal. Ahead of Griffen and Ward and every other midfielder bar Boyd.

Also 2nd behind boyd for 'playmaker' = being the first guy in the chain of disposals that results in a shot on goal.

Hes our top midfielder for 1%ers and 3rd in the team for tackles.

OK, so he isnt the guy that gets the scoring assists or goals, but he does contribute to the scoreline by running all over the ground all day getting the job done, and plays a good defensive game at the same time.

Being slow is like being short or skinny. It doesnt mean anything in itself. You have to look at the whole package.

People often say this, but why have a middle man when you dont need one?
We saw this V saints. Hand pass after hand pass, chains going all over the place.
Is he not a link we could at times do without? I mean he racks up the stats, but without a long game, is limited. I respect cross, but having cooney out makes it harder for him to be effective.
At certain times we will need him, but othertimes, we have the tough in and under types now, younger options who can give us better speed. That's the natural cycle of things.

[Scorlibo]

No I'm simply saying that you cannot rely on Champion Data rankings at all to tell you who is playing well.

Because you can rely on goals against?

The 86 is an indication of Gibson's measurable influence on the ball, like I stated before. You can then manipulate this in accordance with opportunity and opportunity for his opponent.

But long gone are the days when defenders were rated solely on what their opponent did.

[Sockeye Salmon]

People often say this, but why have a middle man when you dont need one?
We saw this V saints. Hand pass after hand pass, chains going all over the place.
Is he not a link we could at times do without? I mean he racks up the stats, but without a long game, is limited. I respect cross, but having cooney out makes it harder for him to be effective.
At certain times we will need him, but othertimes, we have the tough in and under types now, younger options who can give us better speed. That's the natural cycle of things.

The single most important thing in football is being able to get it in the first place.

There was a stat from a game last year that we racked up nearly 200 possessions from balls that were initially won by Cross.

[Ghost Dog]

The single most important thing in football is being able to get it in the first place.

There was a stat from a game last year that we racked up nearly 200 possessions from balls that were initially won by Cross.

That was last year.
Barry Hall kicked 80 goals last season
Alot of players did things last season.

Anyway, the part in bold is a simplistic way of looking at it.
Get the ball 400 times you will still lose if you don't kick goals.
It's fine if you get 200 possessions, but if you give it to the opp 50 times, and they kick goals from that, it seriously erodes alot of your hard work. We're a turnover team, one of the worst.
As others have noted. In the past we had better run and carry from the centre. Cross has been hurt by Coon's injury.
Posessions are fine, it depends what you do with them.

I admit, last year cross was one of our most consistent. My brother picked him in his dream team for this reason and is having a minor crisis over it this season. :D

[Grantysghost]

Because you can rely on goals against?

The 86 is an indication of Gibson's measurable influence on the ball, like I stated before. You can then manipulate this in accordance with opportunity and opportunity for his opponent.

But long gone are the days when defenders were rated solely on what their opponent did.

How do you measure the work a player does when they aren't directly involved, eg Nick Reiwoldt leading 5 times to get the ball? Shepherds? Blocking to create space? Or how closely they are following the coaches instructions. Bryce Gibbs has been way down on possession and therefore supercoach scores this year, however i believe his role to the team is more important now stopping the oppositions gun forwards. I love supercoach but i dont think the scores accurately reflect a players game. I like the coaches votes i find them interesting, and married up with the experts votes and your own thoughts you can get a good idea of both sides and make your own decision.

As for Cross, the deficiencies mentioned are the ones he has always had. Some tough calls are going to have to be made at years end i personally think he adds value and should stay. Most courageous player i've seen in recent memory for the dogs.

[Jasper]

The single most important thing in football is being able to get it in the first place.

There was a stat from a game last year that we racked up nearly 200 possessions from balls that were initially won by Cross.

Interesting position you state and impossible not to agree.

I doubt anyone looks at ball winning in isolation. I would think defensive pressure, dispoal efficiency and metres gained would also be important. When discussing Cross (and Boyd for that matter), we have to look at the complete package. For instance what if someone get 50 possies a game, you say elite ball winner. But if he turns it over 40 possies a game, you have someone not able to play AFL. Now where the pass mark for defence pressure, efficiency and metres gained is, is the debatable area. Cross might might be okay in ball winning, tackling, and even disposal efficiency. But if as mid his possies go backwards and sideways, and he can't provide defensive pressure due to lack of speed.....

The whole balance of who adds value and who doesn't is going to be interesting from here on, because its about the subjective views of supporters.

[stefoid]

People often say this, but why have a middle man when you dont need one?
We saw this V saints. Hand pass after hand pass, chains going all over the place.
Is he not a link we could at times do without? I mean he racks up the stats, but without a long game, is limited. I respect cross, but having cooney out makes it harder for him to be effective.
At certain times we will need him, but othertimes, we have the tough in and under types now, younger options who can give us better speed. That's the natural cycle of things.

He is 2nd in the team for marks. The next best midfielder is Higgins at #8 (who plays forward a fair bit, then griffen at 16) 16!!!!

Our midfielders dont mark the @$#@$@ ball, except for Cross. Why not? We are ranked 15th as a team for marks. Hawks, Geelong, Carlton and Collingwood are in the top 5 for marks.

Cross might be slow, but he goes all day. His speed up and down the ground and making options for teammates is obviously superior to most of the other midfielders in the side, maybe even our best.

[Scorlibo]

Anyway, the part in bold is a simplistic way of looking at it.
Get the ball 400 times you will still lose if you don't kick goals.
It's fine if you get 200 possessions, but if you give it to the opp 50 times, and they kick goals from that, it seriously erodes alot of your hard work. We're a turnover team, one of the worst.
Posessions are fine, it depends what you do with them.


I don't think it's a simplistic way of looking at it at all. In fact, for someone like Cross, Sockeye has pulled perhaps the most relevant statistic. I suspect that you have misinterpreted it? The 200 possessions weren't won by Cross, they were had as a result of balls won by Cross initially. This is a huge statistic, considering a team might get 400 possessions in a match, that Cross has been the instigator of half of those possessions.

The fact that there have been such large chains resulting from Cross' ball wins implies also that he not only disposes of the ball efficiently himself, but is the starting point of efficient disposal chains.


How do you measure the work a player does when they aren't directly involved, eg Nick Reiwoldt leading 5 times to get the ball? Shepherds? Blocking to create space? Or how closely they are following the coaches instructions. Bryce Gibbs has been way down on possession and therefore supercoach scores this year, however i believe his role to the team is more important now stopping the oppositions gun forwards. I love supercoach but i dont think the scores accurately reflect a players game. I like the coaches votes i find them interesting, and married up with the experts votes and your own thoughts you can get a good idea of both sides and make your own decision.

As for Cross, the deficiencies mentioned are the ones he has always had. Some tough calls are going to have to be made at years end i personally think he adds value and should stay. Most courageous player i've seen in recent memory for the dogs.

1. Riewoldt leading five times to get the ball: it doesn't matter how many times a player leads for the ball, what matters is how many successful leads they make.

2. Shepherds: I'm fairly sure these are included in the ranking.

3. Blocking to create space: sounds like a shepherd to me.

4. Coach's instructions: how closely a player follows coach's instructions is not a measure of how influential a player is. The coach's instructions could be to kick backwards at every opportunity, just because a player does this does not make them a positively influential player.

5. Bryce Gibbs: he ranks as one of the best defensive defenders around. He did not rank as one of the best midfielders around. That is the comparison you should be making.

I too take interest in the coaches' votes, but I think you'll find they correlate pretty well with supercoach points. Experts' votes? What experts? The only so called experts I see around the media are those who have been around the industry too long to produce any non-conformist views. You're much better off taking note of the correlation between stats and players while watching a game, so that you are then able to formulate your opinion of games you don't see based purely on unbiased stats.

[Ghost Dog]

I don't think it's a simplistic way of looking at it at all. In fact, for someone like Cross, Sockeye has pulled perhaps the most relevant statistic. I suspect that you have misinterpreted it? The 200 possessions weren't won by Cross, they were had as a result of balls won by Cross initially. This is a huge statistic, considering a team might get 400 possessions in a match, that Cross has been the instigator of half of those possessions.

The fact that there have been such large chains resulting from Cross' ball wins implies also that he not only disposes of the ball efficiently himself, but is the starting point of efficient disposal chains.

.

That was LAST YEAR. Our team mix is different now and he's a year older.
There's still a role for him, but it's not every week and it should depend on form, like always, which hasn't been good.

[Ghost Dog]

Well Scorlibo, I'm surprised by the marking stat. It's the good thing about forums like this because perceptions are often not accurate and you can learn some things about players that are not obvious. We're certainly learning about the enigmatic Daniel Cross here.
All considered though, he had a pretty lousy game V saints and the turnovers were most frustrating. I don't think there's any other position for him but midfield.
However, the stats do prove why he is picked week in week out.

[Jasper]

Well, I'm surprised by the marking stat. It's the good thing about forums like this because perceptions are often not accurate and you can learn some things about players that are not obvious. We're certainly learning about the enigmatic Daniel Cross here.
All considered though, he had a pretty lousy game V saints and the turnovers were most frustrating. I don't think there's any other position for him but midfield.
However, the stats do prove why he is picked week in week out.

Its a bit hard on Cross, but when you have a bloke 40m out and he won't take shot, you know he won't kick (much), you know he won't carry the ball or use devastating speed to break the lines, you know he will stop and prop and slow the opposition down, why would you man him up?'. This could help explain the amount of marks Cross gets.

[always right]

Its a bit hard on Cross, but when you have a bloke 40m out and he won't take shot, you know he won't kick (much), you know he won't carry the ball or use devastating speed to break the lines, you know he will stop and prop and slow the opposition down, why would you man him up?'. This could help explain the amount of marks Cross gets.

Perhaps "contested marks" would be a more appropriate stat for Cross considering he probably takes more of them than anyone else in our side. For all his shortcomings, his ability to take marks should not be questioned.

[Ghost Dog]

Perhaps "contested marks" would be a more appropriate stat for Cross considering he probably takes more of them than anyone else in our side. For all his shortcomings, his ability to take marks should not be questioned.

Really? Which games has he taken those marks in...against top four sides?
I'm not saying it's true, but we have quite a few seniors who seem to towel up lower sides and go on holiday when we play the big guns.
Also, people using stats from 12 months ago are kidding themselves. At the elite level, people drop off very fast.
Just on his games agains quality opposition this season, some question marks over what our options in the midfield

[The Pie Man]

Regarding the role Cross played last night, the next day I heard Leigh Matthews discuss this. He commented that because Cross did not even really attempt to play as a forward, ie his sole focus was stopping Fisher, we effectively had only a 5 man forward line. In a forward line not endowed with stars, this was a serious weakness and he thought the saints would have been pretty happy wit this tactic as even though Fisher was to some degree nullified we were also disadvantaged.

This was on AW. They also discussed (including Brad Johnson) an incident at 3/4 time where they believed Cross was pleading his case with Rocket to be 'let off the lease' and put back on the ball. Apparently he was actually put back in the centre for the first bounce.

Just thought these were interesting observations, any thoughts, anyone?

Don't know why I was so angry on Friday night, probably because it was St Kilda and we really should've won.

Anyway - if Cross' primary task from the MC is to be a stopper, than he gets a tick. Barney saying we essentially played with a 5 man fwd line is probably mostly correct, though I do remember a few times we tried to play through Cross on the HF line and he either spilled the ball or made crucial errors. Would he make the same errors in the same spot next week? Maybe/probably not.

If he was pleading to be 'let off the leash' (so to speak) then perhaps he hasn't emotionally accepted the revised role (was going to say new, but he's tagged before early in his career hasn't he?) which he seems ok at.

He'll be 29 at the start of next season and is a fitness freak, so he likely has 2 years at least of AFL footy left. I wouldn't drop him, I seriously wouldn't - but at seasons close we have to consider whether he can still contribute at an elite level given his limitations.

I take no joy in thinking that, he's been <insert praise all WB fans have for a warrior like Cross>, I just want what's best for our next crack at a flag. Keeping team harmony does nothing for me when we're close to bottom 4, you have to shake it up.

[always right]

Really? Which games has he taken those marks in...against top four sides?
I'm not saying it's true, but we have quite a few seniors who seem to towel up lower sides and go on holiday when we play the big guns.
Also, people using stats from 12 months ago are kidding themselves. At the elite level, people drop off very fast.
Just on his games agains quality opposition this season, some question marks over what our options in the midfield

Yes really. Would you also like to know which end of the ground he took them?:rolleyes:

[Topdog]

1. Riewoldt leading five times to get the ball: it doesn't matter how many times a player leads for the ball, what matters is how many successful leads they make.

2. Shepherds: I'm fairly sure these are included in the ranking.

3. Blocking to create space: sounds like a shepherd to me.

4. Coach's instructions: how closely a player follows coach's instructions is not a measure of how influential a player is. The coach's instructions could be to kick backwards at every opportunity, just because a player does this does not make them a positively influential player.

5. Bryce Gibbs: he ranks as one of the best defensive defenders around. He did not rank as one of the best midfielders around. That is the comparison you should be making.


1. Well it's one of the most important thing to do as a forward these days so it's a negative for me.

2. I'm fairly sure they aren't.

3. See 2.

4. Rubbish. If a guys roll is to shut down Ablett and Ablett gets < 20 touches that man has followed his coaches instructions well and been influential. However unless he has tackled Ablett a lot or got a lot of touches himself he will get a low score.

5. He got high scores early cos he got a lot of the pill. Would be ranked 20th in the past 6 weeks.

I like SC and as I said CD have made a good effort but I would never use it to try and back up an argument. For me it holds as much credibility as wiki.

[Scorlibo]

1. Well it's one of the most important thing to do as a forward these days so it's a negative for me.

2. I'm fairly sure they aren't.

3. See 2.

4. Rubbish. If a guys roll is to shut down Ablett and Ablett gets < 20 touches that man has followed his coaches instructions well and been influential. However unless he has tackled Ablett a lot or got a lot of touches himself he will get a low score.

5. He got high scores early cos he got a lot of the pill. Would be ranked 20th in the past 6 weeks.

I like SC and as I said CD have made a good effort but I would never use it to try and back up an argument. For me it holds as much credibility as wiki.

1. Of course it is, it's important to do because it increases your chances of marking the ball, and the amount of times a player marks the ball is recorded. What you're effectively saying is that players should get ranking points for unsuccessful leads, and this is obviously a very silly proposition.

2. What makes you so sure? This is a ranking system which on last count included somewhere close to 100 different statistics. I know for a fact that the system includes things like spoils and tap-ons, so I reckon shepherds would be a probable inclusion, even if they are under the guise of '1%ers'.

3. See above.

4. The player has then been influential because he has shut down Ablett, NOT because he followed coaches' instructions. That the two happen to coincide in this instance is lucky, and to imply that they always coincide, which you seem to be doing, is to say that coaches are always correct with their implementations. Obviously this is incorrect.

In what ways might this player shut Ablett down anyway? Tackling him is the obvious one, winning the ball himself is the other, knocking the ball away from Ablett, spoiling Ablett. All of these are measured in the rankings. I accept that there are other nuances such as niggle and blocking his run which are not noted, but you must accept that most factors which make up a tagging or defensive role are covered within the rankings.

5. 20th out of defensive defenders? I highly doubt that. Again you appear to be simply comparing players based on where they allowed to play in Supercoach.

I presume your last statement is trying to dismiss the CD rankings, yet you have compared their credibility to the best moderated and updated data source in the world?

[BulldogBelle]

Here's a statistic for you.

Cross has only missed 2 games in the last 3 and a half years. These were rounds 20 and 21 in 2009. These were against Brisbane and Geelong, powerhouses at that time. We won both of those games.

Therefore it stands to reason that Cross must be a liability. Leave him out and we win!

[LostDoggy]

I love you James

[Topdog]

I presume your last statement is trying to dismiss the CD rankings, yet you have compared their credibility to the best moderated and updated data source in the world?

AGAIN it is not to dismiss CD rankings, they are good and have their place but they are not something you should back up arguments with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Cross_(footballer)

[Ghost Dog]

"There was a stat from a game last year that we racked up nearly 200 possessions from balls that were initially won by Cross."

Doesn't not justify why someone should continue to be an automatic selection this year, does it?
New need to cut the teeth of young pups
Complimantary players to Cross ( Cooney ) who who are out.

Giving players credit for what they did last year seems nutty to me.
Yes, he is in our 22. No, he shouldn't be automatically selected.

[jeemak]

1. Of course it is, it's important to do because it increases your chances of marking the ball, and the amount of times a player marks the ball is recorded. What you're effectively saying is that players should get ranking points for unsuccessful leads, and this is obviously a very silly proposition.

2. What makes you so sure? This is a ranking system which on last count included somewhere close to 100 different statistics. I know for a fact that the system includes things like spoils and tap-ons, so I reckon shepherds would be a probable inclusion, even if they are under the guise of '1%ers'.

3. See above.

4. The player has then been influential because he has shut down Ablett, NOT because he followed coaches' instructions. That the two happen to coincide in this instance is lucky, and to imply that they always coincide, which you seem to be doing, is to say that coaches are always correct with their implementations. Obviously this is incorrect.

In what ways might this player shut Ablett down anyway? Tackling him is the obvious one, winning the ball himself is the other, knocking the ball away from Ablett, spoiling Ablett. All of these are measured in the rankings. I accept that there are other nuances such as niggle and blocking his run which are not noted, but you must accept that most factors which make up a tagging or defensive role are covered within the rankings.

5. 20th out of defensive defenders? I highly doubt that. Again you appear to be simply comparing players based on where they allowed to play in Supercoach.

I presume your last statement is trying to dismiss the CD rankings, yet you have compared their credibility to the best moderated and updated data source in the world?

1. Leading multiple times increases the fluidity of your forward line and creates space for other players to move in to. Sure it increases your chances of being provided with an opportunity to contest, and pick up a CD stat, but the real value lies in disrupting the oppositions defensive set up. I don't think you should get points for leads made, but it's a glaring example of the things that help the team that CD don't record.

2. Shepherding is a difficult stat to measure, and what constitutes an effective shepherd is up for debate. I know a lot of body contact in contests is missed by commentators and the average football watcher, and often only the instances where significant body contact is made would be recorded.

3. Blocking and shepherding aren't the same. Particularly when well and truly off the ball, where a small block with minimal, if any body contact can instigate confusion between defenders resulting in a forward getting a break of five metres. Not likely to be picked up by CD either.

4. I'd have thought the most important part of tagging is body positioning. Smart negators know where to put themselves to ensure their opponent is not considered a viable option to receive the ball. Are you sure that blocking a handball is counted as an intercept or a spoil?

5. A defender not scoring well in SC doesn't necessarily reflect his performance as a defensive stopper. Once again positioning, a stat that isn't recorded is a major factor in determining if your opponent is going to be considered as a target.

The only way I can see Cross maintaining longevity in the game is through becoming an excellent tagger, on a player that doesn't win possession through explosive pace, although such players are becoming rare.

The game is not forgiving to midfielders and flankers that can't penetrate with run or foot skill, or to those who get burned off by their opponents in a foot race. While he has been an excellent, courageous, dedicated ball winner and feeder for our club he doesn't have the attributes within his game to take our club forward. We are clearly lacking in pace and foot skill, and these are areas Cross doesn't satisfy already and his scope for improvement in these areas is non-existent.

As for CD stats in general, they don't measure the game on a qualitative level. Sure a player might get credited with a spoil, but why was that player behind in the first place? Same goes with tackles, if you're in the midfield and playing reactive football you're in a better position to lay a tackle than when making the play yourself. While the stats might measure involvement, they don't necessarily measure value.

[Scorlibo]

AGAIN it is not to dismiss CD rankings, they are good and have their place but they are not something you should back up arguments with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Cross_(footballer)

It is absolutely something one should use to assist in arguments. Like I have stated, and have continued to justify, they are the best form of unbiased player rankings out there.

I'm not sure what your reason is for linking me to Daniel Cross' wiki page?



Doesn't not justify why someone should continue to be an automatic selection this year, does it?

Yes, when one can show through alternate means that Cross' output remains only marginally worse than in previous years, you can appreciate and go someway towards justifying his automatic selection through the statistic which Sockeye provided.


New need to cut the teeth of young pups

This is not a new need. In any case the best way for young players to come in is with experience and success flanking them. We need to continue to pick the best side available.


Complimantary players to Cross ( Cooney ) who who are out.

Let me pose a question to you.

A ruckman is complimentary to a rover. In this particular imaginary side, the rover is one of the best players in the team because he's so good at reading the hitouts of his ruckman. When the ruckman gets injured, and is replaced in the side by a back-up, the rover's work is somewhat negated because he cannot work in tandem with the back-up ruckman as he could with the side's mainstay ruckman. Now, you are the coach, and you must make a decision, you have three options:

1. Leave both the back-up ruckman and the star rover in the team, hoping they will forge some on field chemistry, and return the rover to form.

2. Drop the back-up ruckman, he isn't providing the service which the rover has become accustomed to. Try someone else out.

3. Drop the rover, you are losing the hit-outs, and the rover can't win hitouts. Bring in another young back-up ruckman in place of the rover and watch as you dominate the hit-outs!

Your aim is for a winning team. Which do you choose?

In the Cross situation you have chosen option three, where the ruckman is our outside players/runners, the rover is Cross, the back-up ruckman is the kids who have replaced our injured/gone outside types and the rover's inability to win hitouts is Cross' inability to run in a fast or direct manner.

[ps. Option three has big issues!]


Giving players credit for what they did last year seems nutty to me.

What is being said is that at his best, Cross is a great player. We know that he is marginally below his best, but being marginally below great is still bloody good.


Yes, he is in our 22. No, he shouldn't be automatically selected.

No player should really be automatically selected, but Cross could well be in the first five or so players to pass the selection process, and he is being talked about like he is in the last five.

Statements like, 'he is cooked' are just so far off the mark, this whole scene reeks of Mitch Hahn circa 2010, and Cross is a much better player than Hahn ever was.

[Greystache]

I'm not sure what your reason is for linking me to Daniel Cross' wiki page?

You obviously missed the irony of the reliable source that is Wikipedia currently listing Daniel Cross as having being delisted at the end of 2011.

[jeemak]

A ruckman is complimentary to a rover. In this particular imaginary side, the rover is one of the best players in the team because he's so good at reading the hitouts of his ruckman. When the ruckman gets injured, and is replaced in the side by a back-up, the rover's work is somewhat negated because he cannot work in tandem with the back-up ruckman as he could with the side's mainstay ruckman. Now, you are the coach, and you must make a decision, you have three options:

1. Leave both the back-up ruckman and the star rover in the team, hoping they will forge some on field chemistry, and return the rover to form.

2. Drop the back-up ruckman, he isn't providing the service which the rover has become accustomed to. Try someone else out.

3. Drop the rover, you are losing the hit-outs, and the rover can't win hitouts. Bring in another young back-up ruckman in place of the rover and watch as you dominate the hit-outs!

Your aim is for a winning team. Which do you choose?

In the Cross situation you have chosen option three, where the ruckman is our outside players/runners, the rover is Cross, the back-up ruckman is the kids who have replaced our injured/gone outside types and the rover's inability to win hitouts is Cross' inability to run in a fast or direct manner.

[ps. Option three has big issues!]

What is being said is that at his best, Cross is a great player. We know that he is marginally below his best, but being marginally below great is still bloody good.

No player should really be automatically selected, but Cross could well be in the first five or so players to pass the selection process, and he is being talked about like he is in the last five.

Statements like, 'he is cooked' are just so far off the mark, this whole scene reeks of Mitch Hahn circa 2010, and Cross is a much better player than Hahn ever was.

I guess the option you've left out is the rover changing his game to ensure he is able to compliment the team. Sure, he might not be able to link with the missing ruckman, or the ruckman's replacements, but can the rover modify his game style to enable the team to rely on another means of clearing the ball? Can Cross change his game to the required level where he's as influential on a team level as he once was?

I'd love to see Cross change his game to the point where he doesn't rely on outside runners presenting a lateral option immediately to be the effective link that he once was, but I can't see it happening.

[Topdog]

You obviously missed the irony of the reliable source that is Wikipedia currently listing Daniel Cross as having being delisted at the end of 2011.

correct. updated and edited by anyone. Yet another useful thing to use in certain situations but to rely on wiki would be foolish.

[Scorlibo]

1. Leading multiple times increases the fluidity of your forward line and creates space for other players to move in to. Sure it increases your chances of being provided with an opportunity to contest, and pick up a CD stat, but the real value lies in disrupting the oppositions defensive set up. I don't think you should get points for leads made, but it's a glaring example of the things that help the team that CD don't record.

2. Shepherding is a difficult stat to measure, and what constitutes an effective shepherd is up for debate. I know a lot of body contact in contests is missed by commentators and the average football watcher, and often only the instances where significant body contact is made would be recorded.

3. Blocking and shepherding aren't the same. Particularly when well and truly off the ball, where a small block with minimal, if any body contact can instigate confusion between defenders resulting in a forward getting a break of five metres. Not likely to be picked up by CD either.

4. I'd have thought the most important part of tagging is body positioning. Smart negators know where to put themselves to ensure their opponent is not considered a viable option to receive the ball. Are you sure that blocking a handball is counted as an intercept or a spoil?

5. A defender not scoring well in SC doesn't necessarily reflect his performance as a defensive stopper. Once again positioning, a stat that isn't recorded is a major factor in determining if your opponent is going to be considered as a target.

The only way I can see Cross maintaining longevity in the game is through becoming an excellent tagger, on a player that doesn't win possession through explosive pace, although such players are becoming rare.

The game is not forgiving to midfielders and flankers that can't penetrate with run or foot skill, or to those who get burned off by their opponents in a foot race. While he has been an excellent, courageous, dedicated ball winner and feeder for our club he doesn't have the attributes within his game to take our club forward. We are clearly lacking in pace and foot skill, and these are areas Cross doesn't satisfy already and his scope for improvement in these areas is non-existent.

As for CD stats in general, they don't measure the game on a qualitative level. Sure a player might get credited with a spoil, but why was that player behind in the first place? Same goes with tackles, if you're in the midfield and playing reactive football you're in a better position to lay a tackle than when making the play yourself. While the stats might measure involvement, they don't necessarily measure value.

1. You have mentioned that such leads can disrupt the defensive structure of the opposition and create space for your own players. Indeed, this CAN happen, yet it is almost equally as likely that your own forward set up will be disrupted and that the space created balances with the space taken away. I see the point that you are trying to make about the inability to measure this kind of element, but I feel that repeated leading is a poor example, and that you might struggle to think of a good one. Additionally, I am yet to come across a person who can watch every player on the ground (individually) and how they manipulate space. It follows that when we talk about how good a player is this facet is barely considered part of the equation, and is generally more associated with a team as a whole.

2. Absolutely, but if you are implying that this is a stat unable to be recorded effectively then you must also acknowledge that it is an element unlikely to be gauged effectively by any other means.

3. A shepherd is a block, but a block does not have to be a shepherd. In your particular example, this is not likely to be picked up by anyone consistently, and when it is you can be sure that it is not, and does not form a significant part of, the criteria on which any person judges that player, wrongly or rightly.

4. Body positioning is an integral part of a tagging role at the stoppages. One of two things will happen: the tagged will try to win the ball himself, resulting in a tight contest where most of the play can be measured, or the tagged will opt to try and receive the ball, and the tagger may make body position so as to prevent either of the players getting the ball, meaning neither of them should score.

5. Ditto as above. Defensive stoppers should be compared to each other in the same way as taggers should, or any defined position should.

On Cross: he has never been fleet of foot or had tremendous disposal confidence under pressure, yet has proven himself a great player nonetheless. Why should we start demanding pace and disposal skills from him, when there are any number of lesser players we could demand it from instead?

On CD: you are right, there are certain nuances which cannot be picked up by theirs, or any system. However, if one watches games regularly and is familiar with these nuances and how they apply to certain players, one can get a very good idea of how a player has played, without having watched the game, from the CD rankings, and thus they are a very good point of reference in these discussions. If none of us had watched a game of football, CD rankings would be significantly less helpful than how they are used now, and how stats are used generally, as points of reference for output and involvement.

[Scorlibo]

You obviously missed the irony of the reliable source that is Wikipedia currently listing Daniel Cross as having being delisted at the end of 2011.

I didn't miss it.


I guess the option you've left out is the rover changing his game to ensure he is able to compliment the team. Sure, he might not be able to link with the missing ruckman, or the ruckman's replacements, but can the rover modify his game style to enable the team to rely on another means of clearing the ball? Can Cross change his game to the required level where he's as influential on a team level as he once was?

I'd love to see Cross change his game to the point where he doesn't rely on outside runners presenting a lateral option immediately to be the effective link that he once was, but I can't see it happening.

I'll concede this is another option, and one I myself would enjoy to see eventuate, more in regards to our midfield for the future than in light of performances this season.

Only the very best inside midfielders do not rely on outside runners. Judd, Ablett, Cooney, these types.


correct. updated and edited by anyone. Yet another useful thing to use in certain situations but to rely on wiki would be foolish.

And yet I suspect it was you who altered Daniel Cross' wiki page? Tell me how often a wiki page is altered, with the aim of inaccuracy, to prove a point on an online forum? Not often I would wager. You fail to see that people do not visit wikipedia with the intention of smurfing up information.

The common bash at wikipedia: 'Anyone can make/edit a page'

The overlooked bash on the internet in general: Anyone can make/edit a page

The difference between the internet generally and wikipedia: Wikipedia is a community moderated website, with huge popularity, meaning that inaccuracies are quickly seen and amended: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Cross_(footballer) .

For this reason, Wikipedia is one of, if not the, most reliable sources on the web. That this is not widely acknowledged is farcical, the sooner it is acknowledged, the better.

Sorry to go off topic, but the point is, I'm quite happy with you comparing the reliability of CD rankings to that of wikipedia.

[jeemak]

1. You have mentioned that such leads can disrupt the defensive structure of the opposition and create space for your own players. Indeed, this CAN happen, yet it is almost equally as likely that your own forward set up will be disrupted and that the space created balances with the space taken away. I see the point that you are trying to make about the inability to measure this kind of element, but I feel that repeated leading is a poor example, and that you might struggle to think of a good one. Additionally, I am yet to come across a person who can watch every player on the ground (individually) and how they manipulate space. It follows that when we talk about how good a player is this facet is barely considered part of the equation, and is generally more associated with a team as a whole.

2. Absolutely, but if you are implying that this is a stat unable to be recorded effectively then you must also acknowledge that it is an element unlikely to be gauged effectively by any other means.

3. A shepherd is a block, but a block does not have to be a shepherd. In your particular example, this is not likely to be picked up by anyone consistently, and when it is you can be sure that it is not, and does not form a significant part of, the criteria on which any person judges that player, wrongly or rightly.

4. Body positioning is an integral part of a tagging role at the stoppages. One of two things will happen: the tagged will try to win the ball himself, resulting in a tight contest where most of the play can be measured, or the tagged will opt to try and receive the ball, and the tagger may make body position so as to prevent either of the players getting the ball, meaning neither of them should score.

5. Ditto as above. Defensive stoppers should be compared to each other in the same way as taggers should, or any defined position should.

On Cross: he has never been fleet of foot or had tremendous disposal confidence under pressure, yet has proven himself a great player nonetheless. Why should we start demanding pace and disposal skills from him, when there are any number of lesser players we could demand it from instead?

On CD: you are right, there are certain nuances which cannot be picked up by theirs, or any system. However, if one watches games regularly and is familiar with these nuances and how they apply to certain players, one can get a very good idea of how a player has played, without having watched the game, from the CD rankings, and thus they are a very good point of reference in these discussions. If none of us had watched a game of football, CD rankings would be significantly less helpful than how they are used now, and how stats are used generally, as points of reference for output and involvement.

1. Why would continual leading by a player upset our offensive structure, if it was part of our initial plan anyway? A major knock on our forward movement right now is that we don't have enough players presenting to the ball. And rightly so, not just one player needs to lead on multiple occaisions to nullify zoning and provide options, many players need to. How do you think we managed to kick big scores over the years with a small forward line, even when teams were getting numbers back?

2. By any quantitative means, you're right. That's where the subjective nature of measuring a players performances and value comes in to it. You can't watch the entire game at once, but you can watch replays or rely on observers your club has in place to provide that information.

3. I think the forward coaches would look at this aspect constantly. I also think teams would have player feedback sessions in their respective positional groups and talk about this as being something they're either doing well or not on a regular basis. Once again, important but not quantitatively measured easily.

4. Of course neither of them should score. But who wins in terms of their respective objective in the contest? I would have thought the tagger would consider it a victory.

5. Agree, but why put so much value in the statistical side of it?

We shouldn't be demanding of Cross in terms of foot skill and pace. That would be silly. But the team needs that, and it also needs to develop its younger players, many of whom fit the same category as he does in that they're not super quick outside players.

The club needs to develop the younger players that it has, and in the meantime work on its defficiency of outside run and skill. Both are equally important, Cross playing beyond this year probably makes it a bit harder for us to do both immediately.

[Scorlibo]

1. Why would continual leading by a player upset our offensive structure, if it was part of our initial plan anyway? A major knock on our forward movement right now is that we don't have enough players presenting to the ball. And rightly so, not just one player needs to lead on multiple occaisions to nullify zoning and provide options, many players need to. How do you think we managed to kick big scores over the years with a small forward line, even when teams were getting numbers back?

I talk about upset structure in the sense that leading into a space is closing that space as well as opening up other space, thus it may affect other players within the structure both positively and negatively. (ie. two players lead to one space and spoil each other)


2. By any quantitative means, you're right. That's where the subjective nature of measuring a players performances and value comes in to it. You can't watch the entire game at once, but you can watch replays or rely on observers your club has in place to provide that information.

And yet there's really no such thing as subjective measurement. The point is that by subjective means, threads like this become useless because it essentially goes like this:

OP: Statement/question

Reply1: I think this

Reply2: I disagree, I think this.

With however many iterations of this until it becomes obvious that progress has stagnated at Reply2.


3. I think the forward coaches would look at this aspect constantly. I also think teams would have player feedback sessions in their respective positional groups and talk about this as being something they're either doing well or not on a regular basis. Once again, important but not quantitatively measured easily.

I'm sure they would look at things like this a fair bit, and despite it representing good team ethics and cohesiveness, it would be valued relatively lowly even in the internal workings of a club when compared to more individually significant and noticeable acts. In regards to how we talk about the worth of players and how the media does also, elements of the game such as these are almost non-factors.


4. Of course neither of them should score. But who wins in terms of their respective objective in the contest? I would have thought the tagger would consider it a victory.

The tagger would consider it a victory because they have followed coaches' instructions. Whether they have actually had a victory remains to be seen. If every player through the midfield tagged every player through the opposition midfield, and did 'well' by keeping those players below their usual output, I would strongly suspect that the taggers would still lose the midfield battle.


5. Agree, but why put so much value in the statistical side of it?

I put value in objectivity, and there are only two forms of objective material, what is visually apparent at the game itself, and the statistics recorded at the game. The rest is interpretation.


We shouldn't be demanding of Cross in terms of foot skill and pace. That would be silly. But the team needs that, and it also needs to develop its younger players, many of whom fit the same category as he does in that they're not super quick outside players.

Why can't players develop without senior experience? From what I have seen the best development comes from demanding young players to develop their games to the point at which they are good enough to oust a current senior player, and earn a spot in their own right (not as a result of their age). At the moment Cross remains just about the best at playing the role he does. Until Liberatore, Wallis or Ward are better than him, they can develop in other positions or at a lower level.


The club needs to develop the younger players that it has, and in the meantime work on its defficiency of outside run and skill. Both are equally important, Cross playing beyond this year probably makes it a bit harder for us to do both immediately.

If you remove Cross, you might gain an outside player, say Tutt, who is faster and has better disposal. Someone like Libba will then take Cross' position through the midfield. Yet if Libba cannot perform the role Cross does as efficiently (highly doubtful) then this decision has made the team worse. Furthermore, there appears to be no evidence of players benefiting more from playing AFL when not ready than playing VFL until ready.

[FrediKanoute]

Interesting position you state and impossible not to agree.

I doubt anyone looks at ball winning in isolation. I would think defensive pressure, dispoal efficiency and metres gained would also be important. When discussing Cross (and Boyd for that matter), we have to look at the complete package. For instance what if someone get 50 possies a game, you say elite ball winner. But if he turns it over 40 possies a game, you have someone not able to play AFL. Now where the pass mark for defence pressure, efficiency and metres gained is, is the debatable area. Cross might might be okay in ball winning, tackling, and even disposal efficiency. But if as mid his possies go backwards and sideways, and he can't provide defensive pressure due to lack of speed.....

The whole balance of who adds value and who doesn't is going to be interesting from here on, because its about the subjective views of supporters.

I like Crossy and I like what he brings to the team.....here it comes, but I don't tink he is a player who wins you GF's or in our case prelims. He is the ideal role model for a team like the Dees or a team like the Tigers who are on the way up, but once at that top 4 level he is surplus.

[MrMahatma]

Cross may have positives, no one is saying he does nothing well. Just that he's treacle slow and can't kick.

He has major limitations that I don't think we can afford to have in the team anymore.

But it's and opinions game...

[chef]

What is being said is that at his best, Cross is a great player. We know that he is marginally below his best, but being marginally below great is still bloody good.



No player should really be automatically selected, but Cross could well be in the first five or so players to pass the selection process, and he is being talked about like he is in the last five.

Statements like, 'he is cooked' are just so far off the mark, this whole scene reeks of Mitch Hahn circa 2010, and Cross is a much better player than Hahn ever was.

Good player not great. He what he and Hahn have done/achieve for us is very similar and I don't think Cross was that much better of a player.

[Scorlibo]

Good player not great. He what he and Hahn have done/achieve for us is very similar and I don't think Cross was that much better of a player.

Most indicators are against you.

[Jasper]

Most indicators are against you.

Scorlibo - I am disappointed in your lack of appreciation of Mitch Hahn, Mitch Hahn should still be playing, he was great player for the Bulldogs. I can't believe your disregard of Mitch :p

[BulldogBelle]

Good player not great. He what he and Hahn have done/achieve for us is very similar and I don't think Cross was that much better of a player.



Cross cant play the press - offensively.

Handballs dont beat the press- short accurate kicks do- which Daniel cant offer. Our older style of run and gun, constant ball movement and lots of handballs helped Cross, but given that game plan is redundant so is Cross to an extent.

Being a linkman without a reciever (Cooney, Boyd's change of role) has hurt Cross also this season.

Playing Cross as a defensive forward is great, given his ability to tag and run into space, but offensively again but when he has an opportunity to kick for goal, or pass to a team mate, we generally dont get an optimal outcome.

I would prefer Picken and Addison playing as defensive forwards. Hard tacklers, great runners and can both hit a set shot from > 40m.

[stefoid]

OK guys, think about this - Cross is a 188cm slow-over-short-distances midfielder who is reasonable overhead but can run and run all day, and is great in the clinches.

We (apparently) are the last team in the AFL to switch from one-on-one footy to some kind of zoning/press system. [see OWAAT thread]

Is Crossy going to benefit from a change to a zoning plan or not? I think massively benefit.

Zoning requires a will and an ability to gut offensively and defensively, but not necessarilly to chase around any particular opponent -- you just have to get on your bike and get to where you need to be, constantly all day. He can do that in spades.

[stefoid]

Cross cant play the press - offensively.


Being a linkman without a reciever (Cooney, Boyd's change of role) has hurt Cross also this season.

.

Is Cross having a bad season individually? In what way? Or is he being scape-goated because the team is crap?

[chef]

Most indicators are against you.

So you think Cross is a great player?

[Scorlibo]

So you think Cross is a great player?

At the moment he is a good player. Over the last seven seasons he has proven himself a great player, this is the common view. If you think he is just a solid player and has never been better than Mitch Hahn then you are most certainly in the minority.

[chef]

At the moment he is a good player. Over the last seven seasons he has proven himself a great player, this is the common view. If you think he is just a solid player and has never been better than Mitch Hahn then you are most certainly in the minority.

Fair enough, to me a great player is someone like Johnno or West or Smith or Hawkins or Grant etc. I wouldn't have Cross in this company and I don't think many others would either. His and Mitch's service to our club is very similar IMO.

[Topdog]

I've never rated Crossy as a great player. He has been a super important player to us but great is really stretching it IMO.