Stand-alone team in the VFL.

[chef]

The Demons' move comes after both Richmond and the Western Bulldogs have declared their desire to develop stand-alone teams in the VFL and again raises the prospect of an AFL reserves competition or an over-crowded or decimated VFL.


http://www.smh.com.au/afl/afl-news/sting-in-the-tail-for-casey-20110309-1bo05.html

Anyone know any more about this?

[stefoid]

Who are the clubs that do field their own VFL teams. Obviously collingwood. Cant say definitely that the progress of some of their younger players is down to that, but they are obviously doing something right down there.

[The Pie Man]

I think the Williamstown alignment has worked well for us, though who wouldn't like to see Bulldog colours at the WO again?*

*Assuming WO is up to VFL standard - I imagine it is

[LostDoggy]

Who are the clubs that do field their own VFL teams. Obviously collingwood. Cant say definitely that the progress of some of their younger players is down to that, but they are obviously doing something right down there.

Geelong does also.. interesting because I thought the alliance with Willi had been a success so far. I think the culture of some of our first / second year players having to earn a spot in a successful side has actually bred a competitive attitude in our pups..

Could this be all because of the rule where only a certain number of AFL listed players being able to play in vfl-affilliate side (e.g if I recall Panos was relegated to 2nds a number of times last year due to this rule and not form)?

[Twodogs]

I have been hoping and wishing that we would have a stand alone team for years.


I really want this to happen.

[aker39]

I have been hoping and wishing that we would have a stand alone team for years.

I really want this to happen.

It's no going to happen why we have massive debt.

[Jasper]

It's no going to happen why we have massive debt.

Why are you talking like the kid off the porridge commercial?

"That's NOOOO how you make porridge..........." :)

[Cyberdoggie]

I think the Williamstown alignment has worked well for us, though who wouldn't like to see Bulldog colours at the WO again?*

*Assuming WO is up to VFL standard - I imagine it is

Standard yes but you have to make a lot of changes to host games there.

There is no fencing, no public facilities, it's just not set up to host games anymore (unless they are for free). I'm also not sure if there are opposition change rooms at all.

[stefoid]

Geelong does also.. interesting because I thought the alliance with Willi had been a success so far. I think the culture of some of our first / second year players having to earn a spot in a successful side has actually bred a competitive attitude in our pups..

Could this be all because of the rule where only a certain number of AFL listed players being able to play in vfl-affilliate side (e.g if I recall Panos was relegated to 2nds a number of times last year due to this rule and not form)?

Ultimately the competition is for the AFL side -- thats not going to change. Im sure young players would benefit from playing reserves grade footy rather than being relegated to willi 2nds. Become used to the habits of their teammates, etc... Im sure it would be beneficial to the Dogs to field their own side

The only counter argument for me is it bad for the standard of victorian footy as a whole (the VFL) ? Probably.

But is that the Bulldogs concern? Some clubs already have reserves teams, and the AFL itself has come out and said 'if you can afford it, do what you want', so I dont see why the responsibility for the standard of the VFL has to fall at the feet of random individual AFL clubs like us.

[alwaysadog]

Has the limit on the number of AFL listed players that can play for a VFL side been removed?

Recently someone, they know who they are but I can't remember the name, was telling me that the AFL had organised this to head off the stand alone push.

[LostDoggy]

Take a look at the SANFL or WAFL — both quality comps that do not rely on AFL-listed players. Sure it's tough on the VFL having ten AFL teams here to snatch away all the talent, but I'd put it more down to administration and the like rather than player talent.

[Swoop]

Has the limit on the number of AFL listed players that can play for a VFL side been removed?

Recently someone, they know who they are but I can't remember the name, was telling me that the AFL had organised this to head off the stand alone push.
Yes, the 12-10 player rule has been removed, which means that VFL sides can field as many AFL listed players as they would like.

[Greystache]

Take a look at the SANFL or WAFL — both quality comps that do not rely on AFL-listed players. Sure it's tough on the VFL having ten AFL teams here to snatch away all the talent, but I'd put it more down to administration and the like rather than player talent.

The VFL team team beat the WAFL team last year by 80 points, and that doesn't count the fact that 10 clubs worth of AFL listed players were not selected compared to two. The standard of the VFL is continually underrated

[Scraggers]

Take a look at the SANFL or WAFL — both quality comps that do not rely on AFL-listed players. Sure it's tough on the VFL having ten AFL teams here to snatch away all the talent, but I'd put it more down to administration and the like rather than player talent.

The news over here is that both the Dockers and Eagles are pushing the WAFL for stand alone teams as well.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Issue of de jour.

A few years ago we had a run of non-Victorian sides winning premierships and every journo in the country was screaming about the demise of Victorian clubs and allowances had to be made.

Clubs with stand-alone reserves have won 3 of the last 4 premierships so the over-reactions begin.

[the banker]

Bring back the 2s curtainraisers.

[stefoid]

Oh yeah.

[Throughandthrough]

The news over here is that both the Dockers and Eagles are pushing the WAFL for stand alone teams as well.

The day that happens in the SANFL will be a very, very low point in my life.

[LostDoggy]

We couldn't afford this could we? I'd imagine that Willi take on a lot of costs, fund raising etc. How on earth could we cover supporting 2 teams?

[Ghost Dog]

Bring back the 2s curtainraisers.
Seconded

[BulldogBelle]

I have been hoping and wishing that we would have a stand alone team for years.

Same here, I hope it happens.

[Sockeye Salmon]

The day that happens in the SANFL will be a very, very low point in my life.

Why is that?

Just two more teams for Glenelg to beat, isn't it?

[Throughandthrough]

Why is that?

Just two more teams for Glenelg to beat, isn't it?


During the minor round, yes....


But it would seriously stuff up the whole competition, on so many levels.

I feel really sad for any old Werribee/Willy type member who has seen their team merge/unmerge with various AFL teams as the years go by.

[Sockeye Salmon]

During the minor round, yes....


But it would seriously stuff up the whole competition, on so many levels.

I feel really sad for any old Werribee/Willy type member who has seen their team merge/unmerge with various AFL teams as the years go by.

For the most part, though, the VFL is very different to the SANFL.

The VFA/VFL was dead anyway. No-one has really cared about it for years. The AFL club involvement has actually helped generate interest and increased attendances.

[LostDoggy]

Issue of de jour.



"Question du jour", you mean. Well, really "question du moment" (since its more the current issue, rather than the issue of the day).

Sorry, sorry.

[Maddog37]

Apparently it would cost an additional $250k per annum to run your stand alone seconds side.

Not too bad really.

[Ghost Dog]

Apparently it would cost an additional $250k per annum to run your stand alone seconds side.

Not too bad really.

Source?

[Hotdog60]

Seconded

In the main article at the start of the thread.

[Dazza]

Bring back the 2s curtainraisers.

Would love this to happen.

Would also like a 2nd's side in the VFL called Footscray that wore the old jumpers.

[w3design]

Anyone reckon this is only bought to the fore because of the shitstorm at Melbourne/Casey.

Melbourne appear to have cracked it at the Scorpions over the Fevola issue and are making noise about a stand alone Melbourne VFL side.

[GVGjr]

I think the Williamstown alignment has worked well for us, though who wouldn't like to see Bulldog colours at the WO again?*

*Assuming WO is up to VFL standard - I imagine it is

The WO is not up to VFL standards from what I was told last year.
One of the requirements is that the venue needs to be fully fenced and we can't do that at the WO because of our deal with the council. No scoreboard nor sufficient public amenities is another hurdle to get over.

There would need to be some good deals struck but it's probably not impossible.

[Maddog37]

Source?

AFL 360 on fox sports. That skinny balding fella Wateley or whatever his name is.

[macca]

250k it cost Collingwood and Geelong per year to field their own team. How many grand finals have they played in ? How strong is their depth and development of young players ? For 250k per year it sounds like a worthwhile investment to have a crack at a flag. Its cheaper than over paying for a player. At least the 250K is spread at giving players on the list opportunities to develop and play specific or learn other roles.

[Ghost Dog]

In the main article at the start of the thread.

well that's why I'm confused.


article says they would expect to pay about $500,000 for a stand-alone VFL team.

Maddog cites 360 as saying $250,000 - half the figure.

[Remi Moses]

Bit each way I see as clubs like Willy have an eye on a flag and a responsibility of developing our list. I agree with Sockeye that the media just jump all over a stat like flags going to non aligned clubs. Going back Port or Hawthorn and West Coast,Sydney have won flags!
You could argue that it was a miracle that Sydney won a flag with their players playing in the Canberra league.

[Sockeye Salmon]

well that's why I'm confused.


article says they would expect to pay about $500,000 for a stand-alone VFL team.

Maddog cites 360 as saying $250,000 - half the figure.

It costs about $500K to field a VFL team.

Melbourne donate $250K to Casey as part of their alignment deal.

It would cost Melbourne an extra $250K to go it alone.


I have no idea if it is common to pay alignment clubs like this or if we have this kind of arrangement with Willi.

[Twodogs]

The WO is not up to VFL standards from what I was told last year.
One of the requirements is that the venue needs to be fully fenced and we can't do that at the WO because of our deal with the council. No scoreboard nor sufficient public amenities is another hurdle to get over.

There would need to be some good deals struck but it's probably not impossible.


Nothing is impossible if you want it enough.

[Hotdog60]

If the club could afford it, I could see a lot of pluses to have a second team. One would have to think that the club would get a better assessment on the development of it's young players and potential of rookie players if they were all player senior VFL football.
Surely it would help with the development of the team list, seeing if a player can make the grade or not.

Also we can revisit dropping senior players back to the reserves if we can't make a flag in the AFL and the reserves can.:)

Footscray reserves won 6 grand finals and had 11 Gardiner Medals

[mjp]

If the club could afford it, I could see a lot of pluses to have a second team. One would have to think that the club would get a better assessment on the development of it's young players and potential of rookie players if they were all player senior VFL football.
Surely it would help with the development of the team list, seeing if a player can make the grade or not.


Well, not necessarily.

If every club having their own side forces hardened state league vets to the Ammo's/Local footy comps then what will a kid getting a kick against other kids actually prove?

The reason I like the system as it is today is that young players coming through have to earn their spots in the side. Further, when they play they are competing against 150-game state league players who are pretty darn good - certainly better players with a few more tricks that the ones they played TAC Cup (or colts, or whatever) against in the past.

If every club fielded their own 2's side and the current model was abandoned, it would really be a game between 2 x u23 sides full of players not ready and not good enough...what would being successful in that environment prove?

In my experience, the players who make an impact at State level footy - who show they are capable of 'stepping up' - will probably do the same when they hit the big time. Those who don't - or who languish in the 2's - are not good enough and not ready. Everyone who says the state league sides are driven by winning is right - because of this they try and field the best team that they can...if the AFL aligned players are good enough, they play!

[Hotdog60]

Well, not necessarily.

If every club having their own side forces hardened state league vets to the Ammo's/Local footy comps then what will a kid getting a kick against other kids actually prove?

The reason I like the system as it is today is that young players coming through have to earn their spots in the side. Further, when they play they are competing against 150-game state league players who are pretty darn good - certainly better players with a few more tricks that the ones they played TAC Cup (or colts, or whatever) against in the past.

If every club fielded their own 2's side and the current model was abandoned, it would really be a game between 2 x u23 sides full of players not ready and not good enough...what would being successful in that environment prove?

In my experience, the players who make an impact at State level footy - who show they are capable of 'stepping up' - will probably do the same when they hit the big time. Those who don't - or who languish in the 2's - are not good enough and not ready. Everyone who says the state league sides are driven by winning is right - because of this they try and field the best team that they can...if the AFL aligned players are good enough, they play!

I see your point and it's a fair comment, with 10 Victorian clubs and 6 or 8 VFL clubs would those 6 or 8 VFL sides dominate or would they be at a disadvantage. As you say would there be enough hardness with those VFL sides to give the AFL sides a good run.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Well, not necessarily.

If every club having their own side forces hardened state league vets to the Ammo's/Local footy comps then what will a kid getting a kick against other kids actually prove?

The reason I like the system as it is today is that young players coming through have to earn their spots in the side. Further, when they play they are competing against 150-game state league players who are pretty darn good - certainly better players with a few more tricks that the ones they played TAC Cup (or colts, or whatever) against in the past.

If every club fielded their own 2's side and the current model was abandoned, it would really be a game between 2 x u23 sides full of players not ready and not good enough...what would being successful in that environment prove?

In my experience, the players who make an impact at State level footy - who show they are capable of 'stepping up' - will probably do the same when they hit the big time. Those who don't - or who languish in the 2's - are not good enough and not ready. Everyone who says the state league sides are driven by winning is right - because of this they try and field the best team that they can...if the AFL aligned players are good enough, they play!

This.

And players who can't get a kick in the VFL will not miraculously become superstars in the AFL!

[Ghost Dog]

Well, not necessarily.

If every club having their own side forces hardened state league vets to the Ammo's/Local footy comps then what will a kid getting a kick against other kids actually prove?

The reason I like the system as it is today is that young players coming through have to earn their spots in the side. Further, when they play they are competing against 150-game state league players who are pretty darn good - certainly better players with a few more tricks that the ones they played TAC Cup (or colts, or whatever) against in the past.

If every club fielded their own 2's side and the current model was abandoned, it would really be a game between 2 x u23 sides full of players not ready and not good enough...what would being successful in that environment prove?

In my experience, the players who make an impact at State level footy - who show they are capable of 'stepping up' - will probably do the same when they hit the big time. Those who don't - or who languish in the 2's - are not good enough and not ready. Everyone who says the state league sides are driven by winning is right - because of this they try and field the best team that they can...if the AFL aligned players are good enough, they play!

So if every club fielded their own 2's the Eker's of the world would rejoice! ^_^

Yay to grass roots footy and long live the seagulls.

[boydogs]

Well, not necessarily.

If every club having their own side forces hardened state league vets to the Ammo's/Local footy comps then what will a kid getting a kick against other kids actually prove?

The reason I like the system as it is today is that young players coming through have to earn their spots in the side. Further, when they play they are competing against 150-game state league players who are pretty darn good - certainly better players with a few more tricks that the ones they played TAC Cup (or colts, or whatever) against in the past.

If every club fielded their own 2's side and the current model was abandoned, it would really be a game between 2 x u23 sides full of players not ready and not good enough...what would being successful in that environment prove?

In my experience, the players who make an impact at State level footy - who show they are capable of 'stepping up' - will probably do the same when they hit the big time. Those who don't - or who languish in the 2's - are not good enough and not ready. Everyone who says the state league sides are driven by winning is right - because of this they try and field the best team that they can...if the AFL aligned players are good enough, they play!


This.

And players who can't get a kick in the VFL will not miraculously become superstars in the AFL!

Except that it's about development more than it is about proving their ability. Geelong & Collingwood have the best of both worlds - playing the AFL listed players, and playing against seasoned opponents.

Turning it into a reserves comp would degrade the quality, but if we were to join Geelong & Collingwood to the exception of other clubs we would have an advantage.

[mjp]

Except that it's about development more than it is about proving their ability. Geelong & Collingwood have the best of both worlds - playing the AFL listed players, and playing against seasoned opponents.



Agree with all of this...but every single side that goes to a stand-alone team in the VFL will drop the quality of that competition. At the moment it is 2 and yep, those clubs are probably benefiting from it. When it becomes 10 though the same point will not hold.

I actually don't mind if our listed players are running around in the VFL reserves - it just means that they need to play better...

[GVGjr]

I actually don't mind if our listed players are running around in the VFL reserves - it just means that they need to play better...

Spot on. I have been saying this for a while but I don't think a spell or two in the reserves poses too many problems for the development of our younger players.
It's the same as having someone like Panos playing alongside of Little last season.
Competition for a spot in the seniors at Williamstown rather than having a walk up start can be a very good thing.

[LostDoggy]

Would love to see the Footscray Bulldogs VFL team as our stand alone and at $250+ a year its a no brainer. Why do some people take it as an insult to the Williamstown alliance that we want a stand alone team? A billion dollar industry has to move with the times and allow all teams to have full control over list devlopment.

[stefoid]

Except that it's about development more than it is about proving their ability. Geelong & Collingwood have the best of both worlds - playing the AFL listed players, and playing against seasoned opponents.

Turning it into a reserves comp would degrade the quality, but if we were to join Geelong & Collingwood to the exception of other clubs we would have an advantage.

Its nice to be doing the cats and the pies a favor. We're such great guys.

[bornadog]

Would love to see the Footscray Bulldogs VFL team as our stand alone and at $250+ a year its a no brainer. Why do some people take it as an insult to the Williamstown alliance that we want a stand alone team? A billion dollar industry has to move with the times and allow all teams to have full control over list devlopment.

That is the main reason why a stand alone team would benefit us, ie having full control of our list development. A few years ago when we were aligned to Werribee, this was a real issue for us. It hasn't been too bad with Willi, but that could change quickly as they have a club to run with their own supporters and want to make their own choices of who is in and who is out. I am sure if Rocket had his way, there would be alot more players playing for the Willi seniors than the Willi reserves.

[Twodogs]

if the AFL aligned players are good enough, they play!


Not every time. A couple of years ago Willy didnt play Jarryd Harbrow in the seniors for team balance reasons. We were forced into promoting a player straight from VFL 2nds into our senior AFL side. That wasnt an ideal situation and who's to say that it wont happen again in the future to a kid like Panos who usually played well in VFL seconds and had some promising performances in the seniors but regularly got dropped back to the reserves so Willy could play Little. How does that help his development?

And now Little has gone to the Bendigo Bombers. So that means Panos was held back and stopped from playing senior footy just for Willy's benefit.


VFL teams will always do what's best for them and that's their perogative. We should have our own VFL team so we can do what we think is best for the development of our own players.

[comrade]

VFL teams will always do what's best for them and that's their perogative. We should have our own VFL team so we can do what we think is best for the development of our own players.

Fair points but let's just be thankful we now have German as the head coach. I have no doubt Gotch would have chased Fevola if he was still at Willy, regardless of the Bulldog's wishes. The balance between success and development is tough to manage but Gotch was clearly pre-occupied with his own success at Williamstown.

Our alignment is close to the most successful in the VFL, IMO. I'd love to see a stand alone Footscray team but I'm happy with the current arrangement now that Gotch has departed.

[GVGjr]

Our alignment is close to the most successful in the VFL, IMO. I'd love to see a stand alone Footscray team but I'm happy with the current arrangement now that Gotch has departed.

I agree that the alignment works OK as well but I think you are a touch harsh on Gotch who did a good job with the boys. Peter German and Adam Potter are definitely a better fit for us but I can't be too critical of Gotchs management of the Bulldogs boys. I understand that he may not have always followed Rockets wishes but that's just part of the teething problems we have had along the way.

[comrade]

I agree that the alignment works OK as well but I think you are a touch harsh on Gotch who did a good job with the boys. Peter German and Adam Potter are definitely a better fit for us but I can't be too critical of Gotchs management of the Bulldogs boys. I understand that he may not have always followed Rockets wishes but that's just part of the teething problems we have had along the way.

The recent Fevola debacle highlights Gotch's attitude to AFL/VFL alignments.

[GVGjr]

The recent Fevola debacle highlights Gotch's attitude to AFL/VFL alignments.

It was a board decision to ignore Melbourne's wishes and whilst I think Gotch must have been supportive I think it was just a mistake by everyone concerned. I can't single him out for it.
He is probably aware that his future is at the state footy level rather than as an assistant at an AFL side and of course his decision are based on that.

I didn't think he did a bad job with us but of course we looks like we have now got a better outcome.

[LongWait]

The NBA uses the D league (Development League) and the MBL uses the various Minor League feeder competitions. In both instances the feeder teams are aligned with but not owned by the major league team and listed players who are not in the senior roster play in the feeder league. A similar setup to the AFL, with it's feeder league the VFL in Victoria.

None of the pro sports in the USA field their own minor league teams any more to the best of my knowledge. The few remaining NBA teams who owned and operated their own D League teams have stopped the arrangement in the last two years. If the players in the feeder leagues are not good enough, they play in an even lower level. Players have to earn their positions on the minor league team and then, if good enough, progress onto the senior roster of the major league team.

I'd rather keep the arrangement with Willi and make Panos and others earn their spots in the VFL team. If they are unable to do that, then they will not make quality AFL players.