Tom Liberatore and Mitch Wallis push for Dogs' debut

[AndrewP6]

Thought someone would beat me to it! From the Hun:

TOM Liberatore and Mitch Wallis are in the mix to make fairytale debuts on Sunday, as the Western Bulldogs grapple with major selection headaches.

The father-son draftees have barged their way into calculations to face Essendon, placing heat on several more seasoned players.

"They certainly are in the mix, most definitely," Bulldogs football manager James Fantasia said last night.

Full article http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/tom-liberatore-and-mitch-wallis-push-for-dogs-debut/story-e6frf9jf-1226025750965

[Cyberdoggie]

Would be very unlikely that they would both force their way into the side.

The spots just aren't there, especially for such a big game.

Perhaps against Brisbane or GC.

[egan-kennedy-ford]

The Age website has an interview with Cooney. He reckons Wallis is ahead of Libba at present, I was a bit surprised as most others seem to have Libba ahead at present.

[Ozza]

I'm not sure if its a matter or one being ahead of the other in development. But they are different types of players - so I think one player before (or more often) than the other may initial be dependant upon where they fit into the team.

[mjp]

The article quotes Lake as being 'genuinely ready to play'.

So why is there still debate as to whether he should? What is the alternative? If he is fit and 'genuinely ready', then he should play...and not as the sub - as the starting full-back. What possible benefit could there be of him playing at Williamstown?

I am baffled by all of this talk...

[egan-kennedy-ford]

Good point Ozza.

From what I can gather, Wallis is very much an in and under type. With Cross and Boyd our linch pins and Ward pressing hard for more time in the centre, it will be tricky to find a spot for Wallis right now. Libba may be more suited for a run with type role and may find a spot sooner.

Sorry to go off topic slightly, but who do people see as our main players to be rotated through the centre clearances throughout a match. Most teams seem to have 6 as a minimum - Boyd, Cross, Griffen, Cooney and Ward are givens, with maybe Higgins or Picken (depending on match ups) as the 6th??

[Mantis]

Sorry to go off topic slightly, but who do people see as our main players to be rotated through the centre clearances throughout a match. Most teams seem to have 6 as a minimum - Boyd, Cross, Griffen, Cooney and Ward are givens, with maybe Higgins or Picken (depending on match ups) as the 6th??

Gia will have a run through the midfield.

If playing I would expect Djerrkura & Moles would also spend time in there.

[Maddog37]

Off topic sorry but not sure if I should start a new thread. Watched the replay of Dogs and Swans final last night on Fox.

Gilbee and Shaggy were very very good. Lake was really struggling but the way they worked together as a unit is outstanding.

I have been one of the people suggesting Gilbs is looking a touch down but after watching that game he was massive defensively and also played forward a little.

Shaggy was a touch agro which was good to watch and he did a magic blind turn. Hope he can get over his troubles and get back to his best.

The back half is where I fear for us the most this year unless these guys can get on the park consistently or some new blood steps up very quickly.

[bornadog]

Off topic sorry but not sure if I should start a new thread. Watched the replay of Dogs and Swans final last night on Fox.

Gilbee and Shaggy were very very good. Lake was really struggling but the way they worked together as a unit is outstanding.

I have been one of the people suggesting Gilbs is looking a touch down but after watching that game he was massive defensively and also played forward a little.

Shaggy was a touch agro which was good to watch and he did a magic blind turn. Hope he can get over his troubles and get back to his best.

The back half is where I fear for us the most this year unless these guys can get on the park consistently or some new blood steps up very quickly.

Shaggy is one of the most underratted players in our side. If you look at all his finals games in the past three years he has been one of the best in most games. He didn't play well against Collingwood last year, but then again who did. People need to go back like you did and watch how he plays. We will miss him in the first half of this year.

[Greystache]

Shaggy is one of the most underratted players in our side. If you look at all his finals games in the past three years he has been one of the best in most games. He didn't play well against Collingwood last year, but then again who did. People need to go back like you did and watch how he plays. We will miss him in the first half of this year.

He plays well in our consolation finals win each year, that's the win against a team that had no chance of winning the premiership. His other games are usually poor. It will be interesting to see how Sydney go this year because our two previous wins in finals were against team that didn't make the finals the following year (Sydney & Brisbane).

The wipping boys (Hargrave, Eaglelton, Gia etc) wouldn't be wipping boys if they put in their best performances against ACTUAL contenders, as it is our games against the best teams are routinely their worst.

[Desipura]

He plays well in our consolation finals win each year, that's the win against a team that had no chance of winning the premiership. His other games are usually poor. It will be interesting to see how Sydney go this year because our two previous wins in finals were against team that didn't make the finals the following year (Sydney & Brisbane).

The wipping boys (Hargrave, Eaglelton, Gia etc) wouldn't be wipping boys if they put in their best performances against ACTUAL contenders, as it is our games against the best teams are routinely their worst.

Well said.

[bornadog]

He plays well in our consolation finals win each year, that's the win against a team that had no chance of winning the premiership. His other games are usually poor. It will be interesting to see how Sydney go this year because our two previous wins in finals were against team that didn't make the finals the following year (Sydney & Brisbane).

The wipping boys (Hargrave, Eaglelton, Gia etc) wouldn't be wipping boys if they put in their best performances against ACTUAL contenders, as it is our games against the best teams are routinely their worst.

So you don't rate his game versus The Saints last year. Sorry can't agree with you, have another look at the game and previous games a bit closer and take the whipping boy attitude away.

2010 Prelim 24 disposals (17 kicks and 7 handballs), 3 marks and 5 tackles in the Western Bulldogs' Preliminary Final 24-pt loss to St Kilda at the MCG.

2009 - similar stats - 25 disposals

2008 - Geelong prelim - 19 disposals, 5 marks 6 tackles.

[bornadog]

Well said.

Bull - you and Greystache are typical supporters who see one mistake by players such as Gia and Shaggy and rate their whole game on it.

[Mantis]

So you don't rate his game versus The Saints last year. Sorry can't agree with you, have another look at the game and previous games a bit closer and take the whipping boy attitude away.

2010 Prelim 24 disposals (17 kicks and 7 handballs), 3 marks and 5 tackles in the Western Bulldogs' Preliminary Final 24-pt loss to St Kilda at the MCG.

2009 - similar stats - 25 disposals

2008 - Geelong prelim - 19 disposals, 5 marks 6 tackles.

In both the 2009 & 2010 PF's Shaggy's kicking was atrocious.

His dodgy foot wouldn't have helped, but you need to dig a little deeper than to just rely on pure numbers.

[Desipura]

Bull - you and Greystache are typical supporters who see one mistake by players such as Gia and Shaggy and rate their whole game on it.
Correction BOD, we are MEMBERS (in my case, every year since 1983).
If more of our senior players played well against quality opposition in big finals instead of freezing, we may have broken the premiership drought.

[bornadog]

In both the 2009 & 2010 PF's Shaggy's kicking was atrocious.

His dodgy foot wouldn't have helped, but you need to dig a little deeper than to just rely on pure numbers.

Take another look and you will find that is an incorrect statement. I agree that was certainly the case versus Collingwood and yes he is known to sometimes bomb the ball long when under pressure, but if you have a close look at his performance in those three prelims you will change your mind.


Correction BOD, we are MEMBERS (in my case, every year since 1983).
If more of our senior players played well against quality opposition in big finals instead of freezing, we may have broken the premiership drought.

Sorry Members that bag two or three players with no justification.

[Greystache]

So you don't rate his game versus The Saints last year. Sorry can't agree with you, have another look at the game and previous games a bit closer and take the whipping boy attitude away.

2010 Prelim 24 disposals (17 kicks and 7 handballs), 3 marks and 5 tackles in the Western Bulldogs' Preliminary Final 24-pt loss to St Kilda at the MCG.

2009 - similar stats - 25 disposals

2008 - Geelong prelim - 19 disposals, 5 marks 6 tackles.

Stats are great- if you're a statistician, or a newspaper reporter who only watched the highlights and want to decide who played well. Daniel Cross had 39 possesions in the 2008 Qualifying final, yet his output was negligible.

Both prelims were tight fought contests where goals were very difficult to come by and maintaining possesion a premium. Hargrave's blond bombing of the ball out of defence when not always under pressure hurt badly in a game where we were being beaten out of the middle in patches.


Bull - you and Greystache are typical supporters who see one mistake by players such as Gia and Shaggy and rate their whole game on it.

Nice generalisation- considering you have no idea how I form my opinions. My sweeping generalisation of you is that of a typical bulldog supporter who strives for mediocrity, easily forgets our failures, and remembers our wins (regardless of how small) with the accuracy of an elephant.

Personally I find mindless positivity just as tiresome as mindless negativity.

[Desipura]

Take another look and you will find that is an incorrect statement. I agree that was certainly the case versus Collingwood and yes he is known to sometimes bomb the ball long when under pressure, but if you have a close look at his performance in those three prelims you will change your mind.



Sorry Members that bag two or three players with no justification.
If you are going to pluck out stats, how about how the other 2 performed in the BIG finals.
You have to stop looking at things through rose coloured glasses. There is a reason we have only one premiership and why we continually fail on the big stage.
This year Im hoping the likes of Ward, Griffen & Cooney (have stepped up in big finals) can take us to granny and win the bloody thing.

[Mantis]

Take another look and you will find that is an incorrect statement. I agree that was certainly the case versus Collingwood and yes he is known to sometimes bomb the ball long when under pressure, but if you have a close look at his performance in those three prelims you will change your mind.



I have watched each of those prelims on a number of occassions and my opinions remain the same.

[bornadog]

Stats are great- if you're a statistician, or a newspaper reporter who only watched the highlights and want to decide who played well. Daniel Cross had 39 possesions in the 2008 Qualifying final, yet his output was negligible.

Both prelims were tight fought contests where goals were very difficult to come by and maintaining possesion a premium. Hargrave's blond bombing of the ball out of defence when not always under pressure hurt badly in a game where we were being beaten out of the middle in patches.
.

Yep exactly what I said , a couple of bombs and you rate his whole game on that. I don't rely on just stats, Iw atch the full game and assess the player performance over the whole game.




Nice generalisation- considering you have no idea how I form my opinions. My sweeping generalisation of you is that of a typical bulldog supporter who strives for mediocrity, easily forgets our failures, and remembers our wins (regardless of how small) with the accuracy of an elephant.

Personally I find mindless positivity just as tiresome as mindless negativity.

Well you don't know me then do you:mad:

[Ghost Dog]

Stats are great- if you're a statistician, or a newspaper reporter who only watched the highlights and want to decide who played well. Daniel Cross had 39 possesions in the 2008 Qualifying final, yet his output was negligible.

Both prelims were tight fought contests where goals were very difficult to come by and maintaining possesion a premium. Hargrave's blond bombing of the ball out of defence when not always under pressure hurt badly in a game where we were being beaten out of the middle in patches.



Nice generalisation- considering you have no idea how I form my opinions. My sweeping generalisation of you is that of a typical bulldog supporter who strives for mediocrity, easily forgets our failures, and remembers our wins (regardless of how small) with the accuracy of an elephant.

Personally I find mindless positivity just as tiresome as mindless negativity.

What's blond bombing Grestache? Is that like a blonde bombshell?:D
Come on guys, keep it on thread.

[Maddog37]

Everyone has a different view and rates different areas as more important than others. It is what makes our game great. Some love the hardness. Some love the skills and speed.

No one view is always correct as different games are won in different ways.

Respecting other peoples views is not always easy but a worthwhile pursuit in my humble opinion.

Also that final against swans last year I was amazed once again by cross' toughness and also impresses by gias hardness which I have not always appreciated.

It is amazing how much more you see when you take the emotion out of it.

[bornadog]

If you are going to pluck out stats, how about how the other 2 performed in the BIG finals.
You have to stop looking at things through rose coloured glasses. There is a reason we have only one premiership and why we continually fail on the big stage.
This year Im hoping the likes of Ward, Griffen & Cooney (have stepped up in big finals) can take us to granny and win the bloody thing.

Sorry can you remind what other two? Do you mean Gia and Gilbee?

By the way Desi, I am not happy about the performance of our team over the past 56 years at all; how can I be. God, next month I will be 55 and I haven't seen a Grand Final. I was 6 years old when we played in the last one.

My post is about members who bag the likes of Shaggy and Gia and from what I can see all due to one or two mistakes in a game. Some players are loved by supporters and can do no wrong. Example Harbrow, but do you know his kicking efficiency last year was 37%, a disgraceful stat.

[Greystache]

Yep exactly what I said , a couple of bombs and you rate his whole game on that. I don't rely on just stats, Iw atch the full game and assess the player performance over the whole game.

When one of your primary roles in the team is providing defensive rebound (we have manipulated the match ups to give him the weakest forward) and you're bombing wildly then you have played poorly. Too many of our supposed senior players have proven they cannot handle the additional pressure top teams apply in big finals, we will never win a premiership (or even beat a good team at our current rate) until that changes. Hargrave, along with Johnson, Eagleton, Gilbee, Gia, and until last year Murphy are all/were senior players and all have poor finals records. Cooney has also never lifted for a final but I excuse him at this stage because he's never had a decent run with injury.



Well you don't know me then do you:mad:

I'm talking about you as a supporter. You continually refer to our consolation finals win each year as proof certain players are proven finals players, you always exclude the fact they are poor against the actual contenders. You have spoken of the great pride you have in our 3 consecutive prelim finals, yet exclude the fact we're 0-6 against actual premiership contenders. That says to me you're happy with mediocrity- Just being there is good enough.

I don't want to accept that, and I don't want to accept players continually failing us when it matters most.

[bornadog]

I'm talking about you as a supporter. You continually refer to our consolation finals win each year as proof certain players are proven finals players, you always exclude the fact they are poor against the actual contenders. You have spoken of the great pride you have in our 3 consecutive prelim finals, yet exclude the fact we're 0-6 against actual premiership contenders. That says to me you're happy with mediocrity- Just being there is good enough.

I don't want to accept that, and I don't want to accept players continually failing us when it matters most.

Please don't post rubbish.

When do I continually talk about our three prelims with pride. Your the one that brings up players that play well during the season and you don't rate them unless they play well against the other top teams then they are no good. As far as I am concerned, other than Ryan Griffen, Cal Ward, Ryan Hargrave and Gilbee in one final (Qualifying v Geelong), no one else has played to the standard required, maybe Lake. Anyway, its got to be a team performance and we haven't had the team with no injuries and a little luck to be able to get into the GF.

Show me one post where I have pride in mediocrity? That is a crap statement.

[mjp]

If making the prelim every year is accepting mediocrity then I accept it.

[Ozza]

Guys I think some unfair assumptions have been made going both ways. Probably best to leave it IMO as you're both good posters.

I'll enter in on Hargrave. I think he got to a stage where he became (at least close to) an A grade defender in 2008/09 - and probably fell away a fair bit last year. The defensive side of his game was still pretty strong but I think his disposal issues were syptomatic of two factors. One being the increased focus of all of the good sides on forward pressure - which made clearing defence so much harder. And secondly, (possibly due to our general lack of pace) I didn't think we spreaded and used the space very well last season - and this puts pressure on the bloke with the ball - pressure which Shaggy didn't deal with well at times.

[Greystache]

Please don't post rubbish.

When do I continually talk about our three prelims with pride. Your the one that brings up players that play well during the season and you don't rate them unless they play well against the other top teams then they are no good. As far as I am concerned, other than Ryan Griffen, Cal Ward, Ryan Hargrave and Gilbee in one final (Qualifying v Geelong), no one else has played to the standard required, maybe Lake. Anyway, its got to be a team performance and we haven't had the team with no injuries and a little luck to be able to get into the GF.

Show me one post where I have pride in mediocrity? That is a crap statement.

Talk about crap posting. If you think Gilbee and Hargrave have been two of our best players (and ahead of Lake) in BIG finals, then I'm not even going to reply to any of your posts on the subject. You must be scratching your head at our 0-6 record. FFS!!

[bornadog]

Talk about crap posting. If you think Gilbee and Hargrave have been two of our best players (and ahead of Lake) in BIG finals, then I'm not even going to reply to any of your posts on the subject. You must be scratching your head at our 0-6 record. FFS!!

Can't you read, Gilbee played well in one final, and no they were not in any particluar order and Lake virtually lost us a spot in the GF with his stupid push of Riewoldt that changed the game. Last year Riewoldt kicked four on Lake after half time and thats what we lost by. Show me a game where Lake dominated in the finals agaisnt the so called non pretenders you talk about?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Can't you read, Gilbee played well in one final, and no they were not in any particluar order and Lake virtually lost us the GF with his stupid push of Riewoldt that changed the game.

Lake didn't lose us anything. We would have lost by 5-10 goals if he didn't play.

Gilbee is the one that lost us the GF birth, finding a way to completely stuff up a soda with about 5 minutes left. I'll never forget that moment.

[Greystache]

Please don't post rubbish.

When do I continually talk about our three prelims with pride. Your the one that brings up players that play well during the season and you don't rate them unless they play well against the other top teams then they are no good. As far as I am concerned, other than Ryan Griffen, Cal Ward, Ryan Hargrave and Gilbee in one final (Qualifying v Geelong), no one else has played to the standard required, maybe Lake. Anyway, its got to be a team performance and we haven't had the team with no injuries and a little luck to be able to get into the GF.

Show me one post where I have pride in mediocrity? That is a crap statement.

Talk about crap posting. If you think Gilbee and Hargrave have been two of our best players (and ahead of Lake) in BIG finals, then I'm not even going to reply to any of your posts on the subject. You must be scratching your head at our 0-6 record. FFS!!

[Greystache]

Can't you read, Gilbee played well in one final, and no they were not in any particluar order and Lake virtually lost us a spot in the GF with his stupid push of Riewoldt that changed the game. Last year Riewoldt kicked four on Lake after half time and thats what we lost by. Show me a game where Lake dominated in the finals agaisnt the so called non pretenders you talk about?

Lake 2008 PF- the most dominate big final I can remember from a Bulldog player.

I've got nothing more to add, I think your view on the subject is as detached from reality as anyone I speak to- with the possible exception of an elderly relative who claims we've been the most successful team of the past 5 years. I've rebuked you numerous on the issue (including prior to last years finals), so I'll just ignore going forward.

[Greystache]

If making the prelim every year is accepting mediocrity then I accept it.

But as you know, no team does every year, the cyclical nature of AFL means you're up for a time before the inevitable fall back down the ladder. Patting yourself on the back for having an up period and not achieving anything is accepting mediocrity.

[bornadog]

I think Libba will play this week but not Wallis.

[Greystache]

I think Libba will play this week but not Wallis.

As do I :D

[Dazza]

Libba Snr was interviewed on triple m yesterday about Libba Jnr making his debut. Snr wasn't even sure if he was being selected.

[Sedat]

Lake virtually lost us a spot in the GF with his stupid push of Riewoldt that changed the game.
I'll never blame Lake for this - the blame can be laid solely at the ego of Shane McInerney for plucking this free kick out of his arse to involve himself in a big moment of the PF. Whilst they have been paid since, these frees were never paid before the Lake one - it was a wretched decision at the time and it has not aged any better.

Last year Riewoldt kicked four on Lake after half time and thats what we lost by. Show me a game where Lake dominated in the finals agaisnt the so called non pretenders you talk about?
I think you'll find Tommy-gun was playing on Riewoldt in the 3rd qtr when he cut loose (or more accurately got it on a platter from Hayes). IMO Lake has been our best finals performer outside of Griffen in the last 3 years. His games were massive in both the 2008 and 2009 PF's, and he wasn't half bad in the 2010 finals series on one leg and with a dodgy hip/knee.

[bornadog]

I'll never blame Lake for this - the blame can be laid solely at the ego of Shane McInerney for plucking this free kick out of his arse to involve himself in a big moment of the PF. Whilst they have been paid since, these frees were never paid before the Lake one - it was a wretched decision at the time and it has not aged any better.

I think you'll find Tommy-gun was playing on Riewoldt in the 3rd qtr when he cut loose (or more accurately got it on a platter from Hayes). Reckon you're being a tad harsh on Lake - he has been our best finals performer outside of Griffen in the last 3 years IMO. His games were massive in both the 08 and 09 PF's.

Agree, I love Lake.

I was just trying to show that you can pick one or two moments in a game and turn that around and say the player is not good. Members and so called supporters love to pick on guys like Gia and Shaggy because they make a mistake in a game and judge the whole game on it. Often these guys are set a role to play by the coach but supporters want them all to be super stars. Many times I sit in the stand and hear the abuse towards both these guys after one silly mistake and i just shake my head. Its all a matter of perception.

[mjp]

But as you know, no team does every year, the cyclical nature of AFL means you're up for a time before the inevitable fall back down the ladder. Patting yourself on the back for having an up period and not achieving anything is accepting mediocrity.

Agreed, but I can't stand all the criticism of the side when we are playing in the second last week of the year. I remember too well (and it was not that long ago) not even wanting to check the score because I KNEW I would again be disappointed. At least when I read season previews at the moment I see us mentioned as potential premiers, not potential spooners...

The fall is inevitable? Well, maybe it is and maybe it isn't. If you recruit well, top up when necessary and have good coaching then you absolutely can contend year in, year out. I simply don't subscribe to the idea that you have to bottom out to climb the ladder...but you do have to make tough calls on players who are on the downside of their careers. Has our recruiting and willingness to make 'tough calls' been exemplary? Maybe not and that is my worry - but it is not a worry for 2011.

[bornadog]

Agreed, but I can't stand all the criticism of the side when we are playing in the second last week of the year. I remember too well (and it was not that long ago) not even wanting to check the score because I KNEW I would again be disappointed. At least when I read season previews at the moment I see us mentioned as potential premiers, not potential spooners...

The fall is inevitable? Well, maybe it is and maybe it isn't. If you recruit well, top up when necessary and have good coaching then you absolutely can contend year in, year out. I simply don't subscribe to the idea that you have to bottom out to climb the ladder...but you do have to make tough calls on players who are on the downside of their careers. Has our recruiting and willingness to make 'tough calls' been exemplary? Maybe not and that is my worry - but it is not a worry for 2011.

Recruitment will be vital in the next few years as guys like Gia, Shaggy, Gilbee, Lake, Hall, Huddo, Hahn, are all either hitting 30 or over. Hopefully the three father sons and the others we have recruited this year can play at the level required to keep us as a contender in future years

[LostDoggy]

When one of your primary roles in the team is providing defensive rebound (we have manipulated the match ups to give him the weakest forward) and you're bombing wildly then you have played poorly. Too many of our supposed senior players have proven they cannot handle the additional pressure top teams apply in big finals, we will never win a premiership (or even beat a good team at our current rate) until that changes. Hargrave, along with Johnson, Eagleton, Gilbee, Gia, and until last year Murphy are all/were senior players and all have poor finals records. Cooney has also never lifted for a final but I excuse him at this stage because he's never had a decent run with injury.




I'm talking about you as a supporter. You continually refer to our consolation finals win each year as proof certain players are proven finals players, you always exclude the fact they are poor against the actual contenders. You have spoken of the great pride you have in our 3 consecutive prelim finals, yet exclude the fact we're 0-6 against actual premiership contenders. That says to me you're happy with mediocrity- Just being there is good enough.

I don't want to accept that, and I don't want to accept players continually failing us when it matters most.


But as you know, no team does every year, the cyclical nature of AFL means you're up for a time before the inevitable fall back down the ladder. Patting yourself on the back for having an up period and not achieving anything is accepting mediocrity.

If you're that beat up about mediocrity mate, piss off.

I'm happier than my Richmond-supporting mates…

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Guys it looks & feels like we are all ready for the footy to start!

[Ghost Dog]

Agreed, but I can't stand all the criticism of the side when we are playing in the second last week of the year. I remember too well (and it was not that long ago) not even wanting to check the score because I KNEW I would again be disappointed. At least when I read season previews at the moment I see us mentioned as potential premiers, not potential spooners...

The fall is inevitable? Well, maybe it is and maybe it isn't. If you recruit well, top up when necessary and have good coaching then you absolutely can contend year in, year out. I simply don't subscribe to the idea that you have to bottom out to climb the ladder...but you do have to make tough calls on players who are on the downside of their careers. Has our recruiting and willingness to make 'tough calls' been exemplary? Maybe not and that is my worry - but it is not a worry for 2011.

Like

[LostDoggy]

I think anyone that comes out with the accepting mediocrity line should pee off back to BF.

[Maddog37]

If the old "culture" chestnut comes out I will fair dinkum spew up!

[Greystache]

Agreed, but I can't stand all the criticism of the side when we are playing in the second last week of the year. I remember too well (and it was not that long ago) not even wanting to check the score because I KNEW I would again be disappointed. At least when I read season previews at the moment I see us mentioned as potential premiers, not potential spooners...

The fall is inevitable? Well, maybe it is and maybe it isn't. If you recruit well, top up when necessary and have good coaching then you absolutely can contend year in, year out. I simply don't subscribe to the idea that you have to bottom out to climb the ladder...but you do have to make tough calls on players who are on the downside of their careers. Has our recruiting and willingness to make 'tough calls' been exemplary? Maybe not and that is my worry - but it is not a worry for 2011.

Nothing mandates the fall happens, but history shows it does. It becomes harder to recruit and retain your next batch of stars while you're up the top. Obviously with the draft you get latter picks, but drafting is hardly such a precise science that it can't be overcome, the main problem is salary cap and offering opportunities to players who could develop. Young players who show a bit early start to command bigger dollars perhaps before they deserve them, and players who've been on the list for a couple of years expect regular games, warranted or not. Being able to keep your next group together and content is pretty tough.

I look at Brian Lake, who's probably the key to our team, even as late as the start of 2006 he was still a bit of an unknown quantity, would he have been getting the opportunities in 2008 that he was afforded in 2004/5, probably not, and if he put his hand out for a pay increase when our salary cap was tight would we have considered making him trade bait to create room? Possibly, but we didn't have to because we were down the bottom and to the surprise of many he's developed into the AFL's best defender. Losing one or two players like that can make a massive difference to the overall team.

[Ghost Dog]

I think anyone that comes out with the accepting mediocrity line should pee off back to BF.

Think they could both play as a kind of marketing ploy. Return of Wallis and Liberatore. Fans go wild!

Guys, is it really neccessary to say 'go back to bf'.

Voltaire - I defend your right to say it, even if I think it's bull**** - or something like that.

Heres to reasoned, logical robust debate that makes this forum one of the best of its kind.
I've strayed to forums of other clubs and they are lousy, even big clubs.

[AndrewP6]

Boy this thread has a sheen about. Charlie Sheen, that is. The article was about Libba and Wallis and the possibility of them getting debuts in Rd 1.

[LostDoggy]

So big announcement by Eade. How many debutants people reckon. I reckon 2-3

[AndrewP6]

So big announcement by Eade. How many debutants people reckon. I reckon 2-3

I'll say Libba, and Shermanator, with DJ as the sub.

[Maddog37]

Vez, sherm, dj and lib/wallis and a big maybe, Barlow.

[AndrewP6]

Vez, sherm, dj and lib/wallis and a big maybe, Barlow.

Oops, forgot Vez, I'll add him.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Think they could both play as a kind of marketing ploy. Return of Wallis and Liberatore. Fans go wild!

Guys, is it really neccessary to say 'go back to bf'.

Voltaire - I defend your right to say it, even if I think it's bull**** - or something like that.

Heres to reasoned, logical robust debate that makes this forum one of the best of its kind.
I've strayed to forums of other clubs and they are lousy, even big clubs.

“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

It's crap of course. Some people are too stupid to be allowed free speech.

[comrade]

So big announcement by Eade. How many debutants people reckon. I reckon 2-3

What's this big announcement talk?

[AndrewP6]

What's this big announcement talk?

Dogs are touting a big announcement, which is really only the team announcement for Sunday's game. 5pm on the WB website, Eade is going to announce the team apparently.

[Ghost Dog]

“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

It's crap of course. Some people are too stupid to be allowed free speech.

Classique .:D...LOL. And I really DID laugh out loud.

[LostDoggy]

What's this big announcement talk?

Team for Sunday.

But according to Footy show just now, they have stated that Wallis will start on the field and Libba on the extended Interchange? I was thinking the team lists they were putting up were predictions...

[LostDoggy]

TFS named Mitch on the field and said he will play.
The team i don't believe is at all offical (had a 9 name bench) but wow

[LostDoggy]

TFS named Mitch on the field and said he will play.
The team i don't believe is at all offical (had a 9 name bench) but wow

It's an extended bench, same when teams are announced and Thursdays. Sundays teams always have an extended bench. (Final team list for Sunday games, come out on Friday)

[LostDoggy]

It's an extended bench, same when teams are announced and Thursdays. Sundays teams always have an extended bench. (Final team list for Sunday games, come out on Friday)

If that is the case, it is an interesting line-up. Suprised that Jones, Hill and Wallis made the team ahead of a few others because they didnt have a great pre-season.

Anyway, the coaches have a far better understanding of what is happening with players and strategies than we do.

[Before I Die]

Giansiracusa named in the back pocket? I know listed positions don't really mean anything, but would the MC name Gia in the back pocket? How much credibility does this Footy Show team have? Is it just their best guess or has it really come from the club? I won't be surprised if the actual team is significantly different.

[Dazza]

AFL teams had Vespremi on the half forward flank and no Wallis.

[LostDoggy]

I'll just assume it's made up and wait till tomorrow at 5

[G-Mo77]

I'll just assume it's made up and wait till tomorrow at 5

Yeah, I think that is the case as well.

[LostDoggy]

You know what, I don't care which one plays first, or if they play together (no offence intended) - let's just get it happening!!!!!!!! Bring on Sunday ;)

[bornadog]

You know what, I don't care which one plays first, or if they play together (no offence intended) - let's just get it happening!!!!!!!! Bring on Sunday ;)

I agree, I think they are both exciting prospects for the future.

[LostDoggy]

You know what, I don't care which one plays first, or if they play together (no offence intended) - let's just get it happening!!!!!!!! Bring on Sunday ;)

Exactly MG ...... my thoughts as well, it's been too long between drinks (at the Dome) ;)

[EasternWest]

Can't you read, Gilbee played well in one final, and no they were not in any particluar order and Lake virtually lost us a spot in the GF with his stupid push of Riewoldt that changed the game. Last year Riewoldt kicked four on Lake after half time and thats what we lost by. Show me a game where Lake dominated in the finals agaisnt the so called non pretenders you talk about?

Going off topic aside, I've found this thread pretty interesting. Good points have been raised on both sides.

But I had to speak on this: In no way will I ever blame Lake for that. Though I agree that it did change the game, it was a ridiculous piece of over officiating that a game as great as that game just did not deserve.

Back on topic. Does anyone know for sure whether one or both of the boys will debut? From what I've been hearing it seemed more likely to be Libba. Can we take both of them in?

[bornadog]

Going off topic aside, I've found this thread pretty interesting. Good points have been raised on both sides.

But I had to speak on this: In no way will I ever blame Lake for that. Though I agree that it did change the game, it was a ridiculous piece of over officiating that a game as great as that game just did not deserve.

answered below


Agree, I love Lake.

I was just trying to show that you can pick one or two moments in a game and turn that around and say the player is not good. Members and so called supporters love to pick on guys like Gia and Shaggy because they make a mistake in a game and judge the whole game on it. Often these guys are set a role to play by the coach but supporters want them all to be super stars. Many times I sit in the stand and hear the abuse towards both these guys after one silly mistake and i just shake my head. Its all a matter of perception.


Back on topic. Does anyone know for sure whether one or both of the boys will debut? From what I've been hearing it seemed more likely to be Libba. Can we take both of them in?

We will soon find out.

[mjp]

Giansiracusa named in the back pocket?

Not a bad idea that.

[Mantis]

Back on topic. Does anyone know for sure whether one or both of the boys will debut? From what I've been hearing it seemed more likely to be Libba. Can we take both of them in?

No reason why we couldn't, but I don't think both will play. Personally I don't think either of them will play.

[Mantis]

Not a bad idea that.

Would lack of pace be an issue?

[EasternWest]

answered below

Oh sorry, I wasn't taking a poke at you. I saw your later comment. I agreed with what you said about it being a turning moment.

I just can't blame Lake as the bump was pretty much the same tactic that had clamped down on Riewoldt so effectively all night. Roughing him up and cutting off his supply was working beautifully, up till that point.


No reason why we couldn't, but I don't think both will play. Personally I don't think either of them will play.

Because?

[Mofra]

Would lack of pace be an issue?
I'd say yes.
He's very good in congestion and I'd prefer we find a way to maximise on that advantage - I wouldn't think he'd keep up with many (if any) oppositon forwards on the lead, especially against Essendon who are a quick side.
Very good football brain might help him a bit.

[Mantis]

Because?

Of the lack of flexibility they provide.

Just think when we are getting down to picking our bench players we need guys who can multiple positions and at this stage I see these 2 as only midfielders.

[EasternWest]

Of the lack of flexibility they provide.

Just think when we are getting down to picking our bench players we need guys who can multiple positions and at this stage I see these 2 as only midfielders.

Yep that's what I thought you'd say. Fair enough too.

[mjp]

Would lack of pace be an issue?

Maybe, but is he that much slower than the other options?

I am more concerned about the loss of his goal-kicking / goal assists than his pace...but having another good user of the footy behind the ball appeals to me. With Gia and Murphy both playing back opposition zones would be less of a stress...

[bornadog]

Maybe, but is he that much slower than the other options?

I am more concerned about the loss of his goal-kicking / goal assists than his pace...but having another good user of the footy behind the ball appeals to me. With Gia and Murphy both playing back opposition zones would be less of a stress...

Number one for goal assists in AFL for 2010. I would leave him in the forward line.

[Desipura]

Number one for goal assists in AFL for 2010. I would leave him in the forward line.

Last 3 prelim's:
Gia
2010 prelim 11 possies 1 goal, 1 tackle
2009 prelim 16 possies 1 goal, 5 tackles
2008 prelim 24 possies 0 goals, 2 tackles

Gilbee
2010 prelim 17 possies, 1 tackles
2009 prelim 18 possies 3 tackles
2008 prelim 25 possies, 2 tackles

Murphy
2010 prelim 10 possies, 0 goals
2009 prelim 16 possies, (9 marks) 0 goals
2008 prelim 23 possies (16 marks) 0 goals

[Greystache]

Maybe, but is he that much slower than the other options?

I am more concerned about the loss of his goal-kicking / goal assists than his pace...but having another good user of the footy behind the ball appeals to me. With Gia and Murphy both playing back opposition zones would be less of a stress...

It's an interesting thought MJP, and one I hadn't considered. With the loss of Harbrow and concerns over Gilbee, could Giansiracus be a good option as the 7th defender? It would eliminate the concern over his pace being exposed by quick forwards, and his ball use is in the top couple at the club. It may also reduce the amount of time he spends in games out of the play.

[Mofra]

It's an interesting thought MJP, and one I hadn't considered. With the loss of Harbrow and concerns over Gilbee, could Giansiracus be a good option as the 7th defender? It would eliminate the concern over his pace being exposed by quick forwards, and his ball use is in the top couple at the club. It may also reduce the amount of time he spends in games out of the play.
He was also 2nd on our goalkicking list last year, although one would hope a genuine FT forward (like Grant) overtakes him.

Given he is one of our better gut runners though, does that mean we start rotating players through our backline? I'd worry that our structure could lapse at times if we rotate through too heavily.

[Greystache]

He was also 2nd on our goalkicking list last year, although one would hope a genuine FT forward (like Grant) overtakes him.

Given he is one of our better gut runners though, does that mean we start rotating players through our backline? I'd worry that our structure could lapse at times if we rotate through too heavily.

He's a strong gut runner but he doesn't necessarily use that to be in the play as well as he could. He finds the ball really well in the midfield but we're loath to use him there because he's another player lacking pace in an area we're already weak in. The more I think about it the more I think he could be really damaging in the Maxwell/Gilbert sort of role.

[Maddog37]

Being that both Wallis and Lbba have been identified for some time and been involved with the club, is it reasonable to expect them to be further along than a first year recruit would be?

After a few games under their belt to get used to the pace and intensity i would hope they improve very quickly.

That would be a massive bonus for the team IMO both short and long term.

Boyd, Cross, Cooney, Griffin, Ward, Picken, Higgins, DJ, Gia, Libba, Wallis, Sherman, Addison, Moles, Reid.

15 Midfielders, all of pretty reasonable quality.

[bornadog]

Last 3 prelim's:
Gia
2010 prelim 11 possies 1 goal, 1 tackle
2009 prelim 16 possies 1 goal, 5 tackles
2008 prelim 24 possies 0 goals, 2 tackles

Gilbee
2010 prelim 17 possies, 1 tackles
2009 prelim 18 possies 3 tackles
2008 prelim 25 possies, 2 tackles

Murphy
2010 prelim 10 possies, 0 goals
2009 prelim 16 possies, (9 marks) 0 goals
2008 prelim 23 possies (16 marks) 0 goals

Your Point?

[Desipura]

Your Point?

Stats don't always paint a true picture. Whilst Murphs stats look good, he butchered the ball the night he took 9 marks againt the Saints. The stats also do not highlight how Gilbs and Gia froze when given a relatively easy shot at goal by their standards.

[Ghost Dog]

Stats don't always paint a true picture. Whilst Murphs stats look good, he butchered the ball the night he took 9 marks againt the Saints. The stats also do not highlight how Gilbs and Gia froze when given a relatively easy shot at goal by their standards.

You gotta be in it to win it. You could easily take the opposite view that its better to have had the pill and a chance than no chance at all. Granted, Stats often overlook lots of things.

[bornadog]

Stats don't always paint a true picture. Whilst Murphs stats look good, he butchered the ball the night he took 9 marks againt the Saints. The stats also do not highlight how Gilbs and Gia froze when given a relatively easy shot at goal by their standards.

Gia number one for goal asists for the whole of 2010 out of 600 players. Not a bad stat at all.

[Desipura]

Gia number one for goal asists for the whole of 2010 out of 600 players. Not a bad stat at all.
A very good stat, I never bag Gia at the footy and clap and aknowledge when he or any other bulldog do something during a game or play a good game (in Gia's case there were a few really good ones). I stood up and clapped when he backed into a pack against Archer at the MCG a few years back, that would have silenced some who questioned his courage.

Murphy is one of my favourites and Johnno was my favourite.
The facts are Murphy, Gilbee and Gia froze at crucial times of a game. Johnno also did not have the best finals record.
You can pull out all the stats you like, it does not change the end result, another lost prelim.


Great to see Libba in the side for his first game!

[bornadog]

A very good stat, I never bag Gia at the footy and clap and aknowledge when he or any other bulldog do something during a game or play a good game (in Gia's case there were a few really good ones). I stood up and clapped when he backed into a pack against Archer at the MCG a few years back, that would have silenced some who questioned his courage.

Murphy is one of my favourites and Johnno was my favourite.
The facts are Murphy, Gilbee and Gia froze at crucial times of a game. Johnno also did not have the best finals record.
You can pull out all the stats you like, it does not change the end result, another lost prelim.


Great to see Libba in the side for his first game!

Yep they are only human, but you can't judge their whole career based on a couple of failed performances in finals. Not saying you do, some others do.

Lets hope we can go all the way this year.

Note: BTW, the stat on Gia was in answer to a post about him playing in the back pocket and I responded with the stat on goal assists. Nothing to do with finals.

[LostDoggy]

A very good stat, I never bag Gia at the footy and clap and aknowledge when he or any other bulldog do something during a game or play a good game (in Gia's case there were a few really good ones). I stood up and clapped when he backed into a pack against Archer at the MCG a few years back, that would have silenced some who questioned his courage.

Murphy is one of my favourites and Johnno was my favourite.
The facts are Murphy, Gilbee and Gia froze at crucial times of a game. Johnno also did not have the best finals record.
You can pull out all the stats you like, it does not change the end result, another lost prelim.


Great to see Libba in the side for his first game!

Murphy, Gilbee, Gia and Johnno's poor record in finals, whilst surely not good, cannot be listed as the sole reason we lost another prelim.

No Cooney. Lake on his last legs. Morris' back. Tired, limping as far as they could, there was never much hope and they did well to get where they did.

Blaming it on four blokes is a bit short-sighted.

[LostDoggy]

I came here looking for discussion on Libba and Wallis...

[Ghost Dog]

I hope the fans can give them a chance to settle in and expectations are realistic.
Wonder if their Dads will be sitting together on the day.

[Mantis]

I tell you what. 20 years of age, didn't play a seniors game at all last year. These boys are doing unbelievable things. I hope the fans can give them a chance and expectations are realistic.

When I was 20 I was still pickin my nose! as a friend of mine often says.

Who are you talking about?

Both Wallis & Liberatore are still 18 and were playing under age footy up until the end of 2010.

[Ghost Dog]

right - stand corrected. 18, So young. Keep a lid on it dogs fans. I suppose they have been training at the kennel for sometime.

[bornadog]

When is the last time an 18 year old draftee played in round one for us?

[comrade]

When is the last time an 18 year old draftee played in round one for us?

Coon?

[bornadog]

Coon?

Correct, 2004 vs Westcoast

[LostDoggy]

When I saw Coon and West Coast in the same post I thought of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwuQOFrOEkQ

Maybe we should pinch hit Cooney in the ruck this Sunday?

(Sorry for getting even more off topic)

P.S. I know that link wasn't Cooney in 2004

[AndrewP6]

I came here looking for discussion on Libba and Wallis...

Me too...


Boy this thread has a sheen about. Charlie Sheen, that is. The article was about Libba and Wallis and the possibility of them getting debuts in Rd 1.