Guido into defence

[stefoid]

Discuss....

pros:

good user of the ball, rarely turns it over and often puts it to advantage
gets one of our good users of the ball involved in a more proactive role, rather than being dependent on work down field - same argument as murphy playing back.
plays taller than he is



cons:

may not be able to adapt to a defensive position
pace could be an issue

[Mantis]

How does he player taller than he is?... If this was the case I would think he would be strong in the air, but I can't remember him taking a strong contested mark against his opponent.

His lack of pace is an obvious issue too.

A big NO from me on this suggestion.

[ratsmac]

No from me too.

Cons: running around like a headless chook.

[the banker]

Cant see this working. Gia is one of our better converters. Seems well suited to current role to me.

Hill, Murphy, Picken, Addison and even Cross look better suited to a defensive role IMO.
Cross could go back and we could look for more speed through the midfield or introduce Wallis.

[Greystache]

As the 7th defender, yes from me.

If you're looking to play him on an opposition forward, then a resounding NO from me.

[Mantis]

As the 7th defender, yes from me.



I still can't see him being particularly effective in this role because even though he is a good distributor of the ball he isn't going to influence an aerial contest in the way you would like this person too.

[1eyedog]

PROS to playing down back: certainly doesn't play taller than his 6 feet but reads the ball very well through the air and can create space for himself despite his obvious lack of pace. He's smart.

CONS to playing down back: Too valuable for the backline and a real worry that opposition coaches will try to get a pacy forward on him to make him accountable. Would struggle to get to contests down back whereas he makes the contest up forward, so pace not so much of an issue. Unless Vez or DJ are ahead of him he needs to play in the forward line with stints in the middle to give other mids a chop out.

[Ghost Dog]

Anything is better than a repeat of the Essendon game. He's the Ricky Ponting of our football club.

[bornadog]

NO thank you, robbing the forward line with his goal assists and goals he kicks.

Last year kicked 35, plus 23 goal assists.

I can't see him as a defender at all.

[Mantis]

Anything is better than a repeat of the Essendon game. He's the Ricky Ponting of our football club.

How so?

[Remi Moses]

Anything is better than a repeat of the Essendon game. He's the Ricky Ponting of our football club.

Comparing one of our greatest players of all time to Daniel is funny!
I hope you're referring to the stick Ponting gets

[Ghost Dog]

A born leader. Let's not forget, a hair's breadth away from being Captain. Many here would have been ok with having him as captain, while not jumping for joy.
Yet he cops a great deal of stick and his form can be very very frustrating. Does great things, cementing his spot in the side, teasing with a promise of more. Flashes of brilliance.
Yet perhaps just a bit too overconfident, or swanning along on his natural brilliance, causing lapses when simple the simple rules should apply.

[Mantis]

A born leader. Let's not forget, a hair's breadth away from being Captain. Many here would have been ok with having him as captain, while not jumping for joy.
Yet he cops a great deal of stick and his form can be very very frustrating. he will do enough to keep himself in the team, deservedly so, teasing with a promise of more. Flashes of brilliance.
Yet perhaps just a bit too overconfident, or swanning along on his natural brilliance, causing lapses.

Ponting has shown more than a flash of brilliance over his career, he is quite possibly our best batsman since Bradman and when the dust settles he will go down as an all time great.

You comparing him to Gia is laughable.

[Ghost Dog]

Ponting has shown more than a flash of brilliance over his career, he is quite possibly our best batsman since Bradman and when the dust settles he will go down as an all time great.

You comparing him to Gia is laughable.

Current era. Recent History Mantis.

[Mantis]

Current era. Recent History Mantis.

Rightly or wrongly Gia has been copping flak for his whole career.

Ponting has only started copping it over the past 18 months and well after 13 or 14 years of elite performances.

[Greystache]

I still can't see him being particularly effective in this role because even though he is a good distributor of the ball he isn't going to influence an aerial contest in the way you would like this person too.

True he wouldn't, realistically he doesn't even like to put his arms above his head in a marking contest, but assuming Lake comes back that's an area we can overcome. Having an extra defender behind the ball, and a good user of it at that, would be really helpful in trying to create the overlap we've been badly lacking for some time. We usually try to create the free man in the midfield but more often that not when trying to run the ball from defence we end up with a group of midfielders all bunched together not providing any real option.

[LostDoggy]

I always find it funny how people will say he can't play there because of x but have no problems of him playing forward. My self I think if there is an x then he can't play either. If he is to slow to play back the same applies playing forward. Todays game requires pressure put on all over the ground and to my way of thinking if you can't then your in trouble.

[Greystache]

A born leader. Let's not forget, a hair's breadth away from being Captain. Many here would have been ok with having him as captain, while not jumping for joy.
Yet he cops a great deal of stick and his form can be very very frustrating. Does great things, cementing his spot in the side, teasing with a promise of more. Flashes of brilliance.
Yet perhaps just a bit too overconfident, or swanning along on his natural brilliance, causing lapses when simple the simple rules should apply.

I don't recall Gia ever doing the football equivalent of back to back test double centuries against India in a drawn series. If you're looking for an equivalent from cricket perhaps Michael Slater, or at a push Mark Waugh. Ponting is the equivalent of Wayne Carey.

[Mantis]

I always find it funny how people will say he can't play there because of x but have no problems of him playing forward. My self I think if there is an x then he can't play either. If he is to slow to play back the same applies playing forward. Todays game requires pressure put on all over the ground and to my way of thinking if you can't then your in trouble.

I think we tend be more lenient on Gia as a forward because he is such a good user of the ball and he usually makes his touches in the front half count.

I do agree that we really need to be careful of his lack of defensive pressure especially if he continues to play on much quicker opponents as he has been exposed a bit in our most recent games.

[Mofra]

Defence is his weakest spot for mine - he wouldn't have the pace to cut off an opposition lead.

He was no 1 in the competiton for assists last year, but we do need to be wary of defensive efforts (FWIW he was 4th on our tackles list last year so his defensive efforts are ok when he can catch the opposition). He still has value as a forward.

Ideally he'd play in the midfield but with pace issues there already we couldn't play Cross, and Boyd there at the same time.

[LostDoggy]

I think we tend be more lenient on Gia as a forward because he is such a good user of the ball and he usually makes his touches in the front half count.

I do agree that we really need to be careful of his lack of defensive pressure especially if he continues to play on much quicker opponents as he has been exposed a bit in our most recent games.

The point is his ball use would be just as good down back as it is forward. It just seems more effective because it usually directly relates to a goal unlike with the backs usually being the first of 3 - 4 possessions before a goal is scored but both possessions have the same importance in the chain of events. Like down back defense is seen as critical but the defense that is started up forward is just as important as the last chain of it in defense that may stop a scoring shot.

Personally I feel defense starts every where like good kicking and must take effect all over. If a player cannot be selected because his defensive game is not up to then surely this applies to any position on the field.

Lets say for example that Gia gets 2 goals and has 2 assists and 1 tackle for the game. His counterpart in the opposition forward line has similar stats. But also has done 2 smothers 5 tackles. Effectively the opposite number may have resulted in 4 or 5 thwarted thrust forward causeing his team to score 4 or 5 more goals. Hence he may have been able to help the team get 9 scoring shots.

Personally I am very frustrated with the lack of defense in the forward line and the midfield players. Speed may be a factor. But from what I saw on the weekend there was a bit of front running going on and that is something Gia relies on to get his possessions.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

For me it's also a no. I think he is a little light on and will get pushed off the contest a bit. The best reason is that he is still dangerous up forward and if he gets 12 touches we get 6 goals. I wouldn't want to move him from the forward line as we miss Murf already, a second hit up player would far out way the benefits IMO.

[comrade]

Gia = Michael Clarke

[Mantis]

According to Robbo on AFL 360:

Gia = finished.

[EasternWest]

According to Robbo on AFL 360:

Gia = finished.

Did he elaborate?

[Mantis]

Did he elaborate?

Too slow to play as a forward due to an ability to apply offensive pressure which is a must in the modern game.

[Go_Dogs]

Too slow to play as a forward due to an ability to apply offensive pressure which is a must in the modern game.

His best returns last year were when he played midfield in my opinion. His hands are good in tight, and he's good by foot too - so in my mind he's a possibly a better option as a "slow" midfielder than some of the other guys we are playing through there. We need to find a way to balance the rest of the midfield rotations so that Gia can play more minutes in there.

[boydogs]

His best returns last year were when he played midfield in my opinion. His hands are good in tight, and he's good by foot too - so in my mind he's a possibly a better option as a "slow" midfielder than some of the other guys we are playing through there. We need to find a way to balance the rest of the midfield rotations so that Gia can play more minutes in there.

Cross to defence? Everyone keeps talking about how bad his 39 possession game was in the 2008 QF, I reckon his fitness and marking could be put to good use there.

[Mantis]

They were pretty scathing of our performance and the way we played.

The main points of concern were that we had just 1 tackle in our F50 and we were smashed in contested play, but still had players getting forward of the ball.

Pretty much said that Gia needs to get his hands dirty and that if he won't apply pressure which is a most in the modern game then he doesn't have a role to play.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

They were pretty scathing of our performance and the way we played.

The main points of concern were that we had just 1 tackle in our F50 and we were smashed in contested play, but still had players getting forward of the ball.

Pretty much said that Gia needs to get his hands dirty and that if he won't apply pressure which is a most in the modern game then he doesn't have a role to play.

Obviously we are a good contested ball side, and I'm more than confident that's a stat we can turn around ... but 1 tackle in the F50 after it was a focal point in the off season? That's disgusting.

I can't argue with those comments about Gia, either. Problem is, you can add Cross, Gilbee and probably Hudson to that list too. It's a problem.

[AndrewP6]

Obviously we are a good contested ball side, and I'm more than confident that's a stat we can turn around ... but 1 tackle in the F50 after it was a focal point in the off season? That's disgusting.

I can't argue with those comments about Gia, either. Problem is, you can add Cross, Gilbee and probably Hudson to that list too. It's a problem.

One thing Huddo is good at is getting his hands dirty. Applying pressure, well, maybe not so much ;)

[The Bulldogs Bite]

One thing Huddo is good at is getting his hands dirty. Applying pressure, well, maybe not so much ;)

I've been a massive fan of Hudson, but I can't see how he's going to impact games like he has for us. Primarily, because of the ridiculous sub rule. The ruck situation is going to cause us massive headaches, unless Roughead finds form/durability.

I fear Hudson will become a liability, as opposed to the strength he was.

[Mofra]

Too slow to play as a forward due to an ability to apply offensive pressure which is a must in the modern game.
The problem is that leaves (arguably) our best ball user in traffic on the outer.

As an inside mid covering for Boyd he had his best games for the year last year - he was 4th on our list for tackles last year, I wonder how many of those were in the middle?

Have we reached the point where we need to make a hard call on one of Cross, Boyd & Gia early in the season? All are elite endurance runners but the modern game is about burst speed and repeated efforts.

[Topdog]

Gia in defense would be a disaster. He is far from finished but the fact that Boyd and Cross can only play one position on the ground really hurts us. Gia should be in the middle and IMO would be more useful there than Cross and Boyd.

[bornadog]

Gia in defense would be a disaster. He is far from finished but the fact that Boyd and Cross can only play one position on the ground really hurts us. Gia should be in the middle and IMO would be more useful there than Cross and Boyd.

Boyd use to play the tagging role. Maybe he needs to go back to doing that.

[LostDoggy]

Cant see this working. Gia is one of our better converters. Seems well suited to current role to me.

Hill, Murphy, Picken, Addison and even Cross look better suited to a defensive role IMO.
Cross could go back and we could look for more speed through the midfield or introduce Wallis.

Would love to see Wallis in the centre, with Crossy providing a Nick-Maxwell-esque role along with Murphy.

[1eyedog]

His best returns last year were when he played midfield in my opinion. His hands are good in tight, and he's good by foot too - so in my mind he's a possibly a better option as a "slow" midfielder than some of the other guys we are playing through there. We need to find a way to balance the rest of the midfield rotations so that Gia can play more minutes in there.

Yep we have plenty of these. So you think Gia is a better option there than Cross? Boyd?

[1eyedog]

Boyd use to play the tagging role. Maybe he needs to go back to doing that.

Exactly, but I'd use the term negating midfielder as I think Boyd can negate and also get a bit of ball rather than solely being responsible for a man. The strength of Boyd before last year was that he was effectively negating an opposition mid and also getting a bit of ball himself.

Stop thinking you're Chris Judd Boydy.

[stefoid]

We really missed gilbee, hargrave and harbrow. Morris got his usual 6 possessions, but without anyone to give them to he was forced to take 6 kicks and is credited with 6 turnovers. In defence!

Ability to dispose well under pressure is our achilles heel, and I am now convinced that until we start to shed a few guys who cant dispose well under pressure and replace them with guys who can, we will not progress.

guido, for all his perceived faults, can dispose well under pressure.

no Im not advocating ditching Morris obviously, but he needs to be surrounded by guys who can receive he ball safely from him and use it well on his behalf.

[Maddog37]

Gee I hope we are all jumping at shadows re Gia, Boyd and Crossy.

I really do believe Boydy played his best footy as a tagger on the oppositions best player. Crossy, I did like the idea of a Nick Maxwell type role as third man up against opposition KPFs. He would also be able to run forward all day long which would take the sting out of his opponent possibly.

Gia, hmmmm. Needs to be told if he does not tackle he will be in the VFL. Harsh to single him out but if we are going to make an example of people it needs to be senior players.

I just hope that as the year goes on these guys will get better and better. They are after all seasoned pros in a tough sport. If they struggle this year though.........well things will get very interesting.

[Greystache]

Boyd use to play the tagging role. Maybe he needs to go back to doing that.

Please God yes, his attempts to turn himself in to the next Gary Ablett have been a disaster.

His role should be to try and win the ball at the stoppages, then go straight to his opponent and try to shut them down.

[the banker]

Lots of sense in these posts IMHO. Boyd a defensive midfield role, Cross to defence,Gia as sub?, bring Wallis and Sherman into midfield.

[Ghost Dog]

Lots of sense in these posts IMHO. Boyd a defensive midfield role, Cross to defence,Gia as sub?, bring Wallis and Sherman into midfield.

Cross to defence?.
Imagine you're an opposition coach.
would you see him as a threat at all?
And what opportunities would that present for your team?
Very little speed to rebound or baulk / break the lines
Poor kicking penetration
A good mark, but not a tall player.
A very fit player, who can run all day. but perhaps not keep up with even taller opponents.

Crossy is well loved at the club and most of our scoring opportunities in the past started with him. But a player does not always have to be at their lowest point to see that's it's time to start a transition to the new guard, with older players being slowly given decent but less opportunities against lesser opponents to allow the Wallis's and Libba's of the world to cut their teeth. Same goes for Gia. It's not to take a pot at players, but it's just their time, not to be cut from the team, but to share the load with younger players. The mentoring and experience, leadership they can provide is invaluable.

[Desipura]

Too slow to play as a forward due to an ability to apply offensive pressure which is a must in the modern game.
Well that is pretty obvious to the non rose coloured.

[Desipura]

They were pretty scathing of our performance and the way we played.

The main points of concern were that we had just 1 tackle in our F50 and we were smashed in contested play, but still had players getting forward of the ball.

Pretty much said that Gia needs to get his hands dirty and that if he won't apply pressure which is a most in the modern game then he doesn't have a role to play.
These are the stats that mean more these days.

[stefoid]

Saints would love Crossy - run up and down the field all day in a zone, compete in the air defensively and then handball to someone running past when he wins the ball. Like they get from Farren Ray, but much better in the clinches.

how to get the best from the players we have, thats the question. boyds disposal under pressure is dodgy and cross cant kick. We have to find roles/team plans for these guys that maximise their strengths and minimize their weaknesses.

Thats the general consensus Im getting.

[Greystache]

Saints would love Crossy - run up and down the field all day in a zone, compete in the air defensively and then handball to someone running past when he wins the ball. Like they get from Farren Ray, but much better in the clinches.

how to get the best from the players we have, thats the question. boyds disposal under pressure is dodgy and cross cant kick. We have to find roles/team plans for these guys that maximise their strengths and minimize their weaknesses.

Thats the general consensus Im getting.

A slow, strong tackling, handballing, possession accumulator?

Something like Luke Ball who they gave away for nothing?

[stefoid]

A slow, strong tackling, handballing, possession accumulator?

Something like Luke Ball who they gave away for nothing?

Their loss.

Crossy has more legs than ball and plays taller. Better player.

[EasternWest]

Cross to defence?.
Imagine you're an opposition coach.
would you see him as a threat at all?
And what opportunities would that present for your team?
Very little speed to rebound or baulk / break the lines
Poor kicking penetration
A good mark, but not a tall player.
A very fit player, who can run all day. but perhaps not keep up with even taller opponents.

Crossy is well loved at the club and most of our scoring opportunities in the past started with him. But a player does not always have to be at their lowest point to see that's it's time to start a transition to the new guard, with older players being slowly given decent but less opportunities against lesser opponents to allow the Wallis's and Libba's of the world to cut their teeth. Same goes for Gia. It's not to take a pot at players, but it's just their time, not to be cut from the team, but to share the load with younger players. The mentoring and experience, leadership they can provide is invaluable.

You make some good points. Transitioning players must be very difficult to do, especially when they're so entrenched as "heart and soul" type players.

But it's gotta be done.

I was filthy with the way West was treated, but in hindsight, the club just had to do it. He was filthy at the time too, but even he concedes it was the right thing.

Tough one.

[Topdog]

Yep we have plenty of these. So you think Gia is a better option there than Cross? Boyd?

I do!

[Greystache]

Their loss.

Crossy has more legs than ball and plays taller. Better player.

Their loss?

Clearly they didn't want him, and obviously in no way would they "love Cross"

[comrade]

Their loss?

Clearly they didn't want him, and obviously in no way would they "love Cross"

It is their loss. They're clearly crying out for someone to help out Lenny in the clinches and are forced to use Armitage, who is a poor man's Luke Ball.

They offered him a contract, so they did want him but who knows how much game time Lyon would have given him. He wanted to go elsewhere where he felt he provided more value and it proved a masterstroke.

Definitely a loss for the Saints.

[Greystache]

It is their loss. They're clearly crying out for someone to help out Lenny in the clinches and are forced to use Armitage, who is a poor man's Luke Ball.

They offered him a contract, so they did want him but who knows how much game time Lyon would have given him. He wanted to go elsewhere where he felt he provided more value and it proved a masterstroke.

Definitely a loss for the Saints.

The point is they were comfortable to let him go, if they really wanted to keep him they would have. They wouldn't give him time on the field because they thought they had better options. Whether we think it's right or not, they don't feel they miss him.

My response was to a claim St Kilda would love Cross, given they let go a former captain, All Australian, and B&F winner at their own club who plays the same role, they clearly wouldn't love Cross.

[Mofra]

The point is they were comfortable to let him go, if they really wanted to keep him they would have. They wouldn't give him time on the field because they thought they had better options. Whether we think it's right or not, they don't feel they miss him.

My response was to a claim St Kilda would love Cross, given they let go a former captain, All Australian, and B&F winner at their own club who plays the same role, they clearly wouldn't love Cross.
Either way they were one unlucky bounce away from the premiership last year - I'm prepared to cut their list management approach some slack.

[comrade]

Either way they were one unlucky bounce away from the premiership last year - I'm prepared to cut their list management approach some slack.

Their coaching/game plan covers the cracks of their list management. We'll see them fall off a cliff in the next few years.