stats, stats, stats

[stefoid]

Two games in, pro-stats have their stats available.

Heres the two ones I like most - play maker: which basically identifies who starts a chain of posessions resulting in a shot on goal (either by getting the ball, or a free or doing something that strips the opposition of the ball)

and scoring involvement: which means being involved in that chain of possessions somewhere along the line.


I also think turnovers are a good stat to look at. We all know what a turnover is.

play maker leaderboard:

1 Thomas Liberatore 3.0
2 Callan Ward 2.5
3 Robert Murphy 2.0
3 Jordan Roughead 2.0
5 Benjamin Hudson 1.5
5 Adam Cooney 1.5


scor inv leaderboard:

1 Matthew Boyd 5.0
2 Ryan Griffen 4.5
3 Jordan Roughead 4.0
3 Callan Ward 4.0
3 Thomas Liberatore 4.0
6 Adam Cooney 3.5
6 Daniel Cross 3.5
8 Robert Murphy 3.0

turnover 'leader' board
1 Ryan Griffen 8.5
2 Matthew Boyd 8.0
2 Josh Hill 8.0
2 Adam Cooney 8.0
5 Shaun Higgins 7.5
6 Benjamin Hudson 7.0
7 Daniel Cross 6.5

scoring assists leaderboard - that crucial last disposal to the guy who has the shot.
1 Daniel Giansiracusa 2.0
1 Shaun Higgins 2.0
1 Jordan Roughead 2.0
1 Thomas Liberatore 2.0
1 Jarrad Grant 2.0
1 Ryan Griffen 2.0

[LostDoggy]

So effectively Griff is -2 ?

Roughy high up on the positive boards from one game :)

[stefoid]

Depends how many of grifs turnovers resulted in opposition having shots on goal. For a primarily outside player, he just has to do better under pressure.

Libba very effective. I wonder how much improvement he has left in him? Course he is yet to be tagged.

[Mofra]

Libba very effective. I wonder how much improvement he has left in him? Course he is yet to be tagged.
Very surprised at Libba's score, considering some of his disposals are quick kicks from the bottom of packs. He just seems body-size and a bit of cardio away from elite status.

[LostDoggy]

He just seems body-size and a bit of cardio away from elite status.

And its great that his 'downsides' aren't setbacks, just something to work on to become even better

[AndrewP6]

Depends how many of grifs turnovers resulted in opposition having shots on goal. For a primarily outside player, he just has to do better under pressure.

Libba very effective. I wonder how much improvement he has left in him? Course he is yet to be tagged.

Given he's only played 2 games and is only 18, I'd say 'a fair bit' - which is exciting.

[bornadog]

The stats are all wrong just ask Cyberdoggie:D

[bulldogsfight]

t:Dhey did a survey and discovered that 45% of stats are wrong 76% of the time

[LostDoggy]

Very surprised at Libba's score, considering some of his disposals are quick kicks from the bottom of packs. He just seems body-size and a bit of cardio away from elite status.

Pretty bloody exciting really.

[ratsmac]

I would like to know if a turnover is an errant handball or kick, or is it also being tackled whilst trying to bust out of congestion, because that would explain that list of players having so many. It's understandable that you might cough up the ball in a tight situation trying to release a team mate. Although some we know are just terrible disposes of the footy at times.

These are good stats, but they'll be interesting reading to see who drops out of some of these lists in the big games against tougher opposition.

[Bulldog Joe]

I would like to know if a turnover is an errant handball or kick, or is it also being tackled whilst trying to bust out of congestion, because that would explain that list of players having so many. It's understandable that you might cough up the ball in a tight situation trying to release a team mate. Although some we know are just terrible disposes of the footy at times.

These are good stats, but they'll be interesting reading to see who drops out of some of these lists in the big games against tougher opposition.

The problem with Stats is that it is hard to really cover contingencies.

Is it a turnover when somewhere clears from the backline to an empty forward area and the ball is gathered by the opposition?

Should it be a turnover if it passed to a player on the lead who either drops the ball or gets spoilt. Is any weighting given to the degree of advantage afforded by the delivery. Some absolute shanks get to a team mate, but a well executed pass can be thwarted by good opposition play.

It would be better to know if they chose the better or best option and executed the skill.

On the stats listed Roughead is ahead of Hudson in relation to the team scoring. We all know this is clearly not the case.

[Desipura]

The problem with Stats is that it is hard to really cover contingencies.

Is it a turnover when somewhere clears from the backline to an empty forward area and the ball is gathered by the opposition?

Should it be a turnover if it passed to a player on the lead who either drops the ball or gets spoilt. Is any weighting given to the degree of advantage afforded by the delivery. Some absolute shanks get to a team mate, but a well executed pass can be thwarted by good opposition play.

It would be better to know if they chose the better or best option and executed the skill.

On the stats listed Roughead is ahead of Hudson in relation to the team scoring. We all know this is clearly not the case.

Yet you used stats to back up your argument about Minson.

[Bulldog Joe]

Yet you used stats to back up your argument about Minson.

That is being selective Desi.

My views on Will do not rely on stats, but I did quote some that show Will compares better than most believe.

The real value that Will offers won't show up with stats. He brings an aggression at the contest that tires opponents and you won't find a stat for that.

[1eyedog]

That is being selective Desi.

My views on Will do not rely on stats, but I did quote some that show Will compares better than most believe.

The real value that Will offers won't show up with stats. He brings an aggression at the contest that tires opponents and you won't find a stat for that.

A propensity to give away free kicks at crucial stages more like it.

[LostDoggy]

That is being selective Desi.

My views on Will do not rely on stats, but I did quote some that show Will compares better than most believe.

The real value that Will offers won't show up with stats. He brings an aggression at the contest that tires opponents and you won't find a stat for that.

And a fist from the ruck as good as a kick!

[stefoid]

If memory serves, turnovers are handballs or short kicks that end up (somehow) with the opposition. They dont count long kicks to contests as turnovers, but they do include long kicks directly to an opponent.

Sure, they dont tell the whole story. The closer you are to goal, the harder it is to get the ball into a teammates hands, with that last crucial 'score assist' disposal usually being the hardest, unless the opposition defence has totally broken down.

Most of Grifs work is done forward of centre, so he has to take the hard kicks, so maybe he gets some slack, but the difference between him being a good outside player for us and a great one is turning 2 or 3 of his turnovers into scoring involvements. Same goes for Boyd.

I also read into those stats that Murph is on track for a good season and is really important for us - at the moment he is winning the ball in the backline (playmaker) and turning it into shots on goal. playmaker isnt receiving a handball, its beating your opponent or winning a free in a contest or rewarded tackle, that launches a scoring chain for your side. playmakers are gold. by definition, they are good disposals under pressure, whereas a score involvement might be a recieve in space. Still important, but not necessarily under pressure.

turnovers, on the other hand, are by definition indications of poor disposal.

The stats dont lie in that roughie had a good game against brisbane, getting involved in a a few scoring chains - good on him. Its only one game though.

Obviously we expect to see Cooney progress up the scoring charts and fade down the turnover chart as the season progresses, since fit and firing he is hands down our best mid.

As for crossie, usually he is higher up the rankings, but maybe libba and ward are cutting his lunch a bit in that regard. This is good for the team


The problem with Stats is that it is hard to really cover contingencies.

Is it a turnover when somewhere clears from the backline to an empty forward area and the ball is gathered by the opposition?

Should it be a turnover if it passed to a player on the lead who either drops the ball or gets spoilt. Is any weighting given to the degree of advantage afforded by the delivery. Some absolute shanks get to a team mate, but a well executed pass can be thwarted by good opposition play.

It would be better to know if they chose the better or best option and executed the skill.

On the stats listed Roughead is ahead of Hudson in relation to the team scoring. We all know this is clearly not the case.

[stefoid]

Should add, only one game in yes, but sherman got a lot of the ball against brisbane, forward of centre and did jack shit with it.

Had 7 inside 50s, (2 more than anyone else in the team), but had 9 turnovers, 4 critical errors (turnover resulting in opposition shot on goal, which is pretty impressive considering brisbane only had 15 shots on goal)

He had no goal assist or scoring assists! he did kick one goal himself.

He has a score of 1 playmaker and 1 scoring involvement so far.

Again, only 1 game, but he really needs to start hitting targets, because he is getting a lot of the ball forward of centre and just pissing it away. A quick outside midfielder that gets heaps of the ball and does nothing with it is a liability.

[ledge]

Should add, only one game in yes, but sherman got a lot of the ball against brisbane, forward of centre and did jack shit with it.

Had 7 inside 50s, (2 more than anyone else in the team), but had 9 turnovers, 4 critical errors (turnover resulting in opposition shot on goal, which is pretty impressive considering brisbane only had 15 shots on goal)

He had no goal assist or scoring assists! he did kick one goal himself.

He has a score of 1 playmaker and 1 scoring involvement so far.

Again, only 1 game, but he really needs to start hitting targets, because he is getting a lot of the ball forward of centre and just pissing it away. A quick outside midfielder that gets heaps of the ball and does nothing with it is a liability.

I give him a little slack, he does get the hard ball as an outside midfielder, he breaks tackles and no doubt he will have days everything will go right, settling in to a new team and different game plan (god knows what Voss game plan is) it will come if he keeps getting the ball the way he does.
Very impressed with his hardness.

[Bulldog Joe]

A propensity to give away free kicks at crucial stages more like it.

Yes Will has had some issues with umpiring decisions, but he is not as bad as some believe on the free kicks, that's if you want to look at the stats.

[1eyedog]

[QUOTE=Bulldog Joe;207077]Yes Will has had some issues with umpiring decisions
but he is not as bad as some believe on the free kicks, that's if you want to look at the stats


No it's not the umpiring decisions he has had problems with it's his inability to physically exert himself on a contest without giving away legitimate free kicks. In order to suggest that the stats indicate that Will doesn't give away that many free kicks you would need to assess how many contests he gets to full stop regardless of whether he gets a possession or not. That data is simply lacking.

High free kick counts both for and against are higher for running midfielders who are constantly on the ball. Will simply doesn't get to enough contests to give away high free kick counts so may be low on this stat, but my point is that when he does get to contests he gives them away.

I hope he can turn lots of things around in his game when he gets the chance, but in all reality he gives away too many free kicks and drops too many marks when he gets two hands to the ball. A bloke his size should take morethan he does. The upside of Will I agree is that he can will himself on a contest and his goal kicking is not too bad, not in the Jolly class, but for his size it's not too bad. I'm leaning towards developing Roughhead now.

[Desipura]

That is being selective Desi.

My views on Will do not rely on stats, but I did quote some that show Will compares better than most believe.

The real value that Will offers won't show up with stats. He brings an aggression at the contest that tires opponents and you won't find a stat for that.
Selective a bit like stats BJ? ;)

[Bulldog Joe]

[QUOTE=Bulldog Joe;207077]Yes Will has had some issues with umpiring decisions
but he is not as bad as some believe on the free kicks, that's if you want to look at the stats


No it's not the umpiring decisions he has had problems with it's his inability to physically exert himself on a contest without giving away legitimate free kicks. In order to suggest that the stats say that Will doesn't give away that many free kicks you would need to assess how many contests he gets to regardless of whether he gets a possession or not. That data is simply lacking.

The stats provide a free kick ratio scale which is obviously at the higher end of both free kicks for and against with regard to ball winners. Will simply doesn't get to enough contests to give away high freek kick counts so may be low on this stat. My point is that when he does get to contests he gives them away.

I hope he can turn lots of things around in his game when he gets the chance, but in all reality he gives away too many free kicks and drops too many marks when he gets two hands to the ball. A bloke his size should take morethan he does. The upside of Will I agree is that he can will himself on a contest and his goal kicking is not too bad, not in the Jolly class, but for his size it's not too bad.

If you look at his stats for and against you will find that he has improved significantly from his early years.

In 2010 he reduced his differential to -0.27 with 1.33 for (total 20) and 1.60 against(25) on a per game basis. Shows that he didn't give away that many. As a comparison Jolly at Collingwood gave away 21 more frees in 11 more games and had a differential of -0.25 per game.

[1eyedog]

If you look at his stats for and against you will find that he has improved significantly from his early years.

In 2010 he reduced his differential to -0.27 with 1.33 for (total 20) and 1.60 against(25) on a per game basis. Shows that he didn't give away that many. As a comparison Jolly at Collingwood gave away 21 more frees in 11 more games and had a differential of -0.25 per game.

Thanks for highlighting that. Glad to see some improvement over the years but as he develops you would expect this.

My point still stands, IMO and I have no stats to back this up, Jolly rucks over longer periods than Will and is invloved in far more contests, I bet he wins a heap more free kicks too. Comparing Jolly's return to Will's is like comparing the French to the Germans.

[stefoid]

I give him a little slack, he does get the hard ball as an outside midfielder, he breaks tackles and no doubt he will have days everything will go right, settling in to a new team and different game plan (god knows what Voss game plan is) it will come if he keeps getting the ball the way he does.
Very impressed with his hardness.

Hardness is fine, but our achilles heel is disposal under pressure, and if youre not part of the solution, then youre part of the problem.

Libba is definitely part of the solution.

[Bulldog Joe]

Thanks for highlighting that. Glad to see some improvement over the years but as he develops you would expect this.

My point still stands, IMO and I have no stats to back this up, Jolly rucks over longer periods than Will and is invloved in far more contests, I bet he wins a heap more free kicks too. Comparing Jolly's return to Will's is like comparing the French to the Germans.

Sorry but I was incorrect with the first one's on Jolly
Averages per game in 2010

Jolly Frees For 1.385 Free Against 1.846 Total Frees Involvement 84
Minson 1.333 1.667 45

I take your point on contests but this shows that when the whistle blows Jolly is more likely to have a free paid against him.

[LostDoggy]

The Pro Stats website has Libba's tackle count wrong. Did he make 6 tackles (as stated on Pro Stats) or 10 (as stated everywhere else) against Brisbane?

[1eyedog]

Sorry but I was incorrect with the first one's on Jolly
Averages per game in 2010

Jolly Frees For 1.385 Free Against 1.846 Total Frees Involvement 84
Minson 1.333 1.667 45

I take your point on contests but this shows that when the whistle blows Jolly is more likely to have a free paid against him.

Okay fair enough

[GVGjr]

That is being selective Desi.

My views on Will do not rely on stats, but I did quote some that show Will compares better than most believe.

The real value that Will offers won't show up with stats. He brings an aggression at the contest that tires opponents and you won't find a stat for that.

I like your views on Minson. Hudson is better at the moment but Minson could very well be the number 1 ruckman for us next season.

[The Coon Dog]

I can't confirm this but a guy at work told me today that after 2 rounds St.Kilda lead the inside 15's! ;)

[EasternWest]

I can't confirm this but a guy at work told me today that after 2 rounds St.Kilda lead the inside 15's! ;)

I feel dirty just giggling at that.

[AndrewP6]

I can't confirm this but a guy at work told me today that after 2 rounds St.Kilda lead the inside 15's! ;)

:DMade me spill a bit of my drink.:D

[Bulldog Joe]

I like your views on Minson. Hudson is better at the moment but Minson could very well be the number 1 ruckman for us next season.

Thanks.

Hudson is clearly the best clearance player much like Scott Wynd. Unfortunately he has never been a player to take many marks.

Roughead looks more likely to develop into a marking ruckman, but his ruckwork seems a long way off.

Will can be very important while Roughy and Cordy develop.

The official Williamstown report gave Minson a nice wrap for his work forward as well.

[1eyedog]

Hardness is fine, but our achilles heel is disposal under pressure, and if youre not part of the solution, then youre part of the problem.

Libba is definitely part of the solution.

Yes but you've got to be able to win your own hard ball against top quality opposition before you can dispose of it incorrectly.

Strong, quick hard-bodied players who win their own ball and have excellent disposal under pressure are like hens teeth.

I would say each club has no more than two of them.

[stefoid]

Yes but you've got to be able to win your own hard ball against top quality opposition before you can dispose of it incorrectly.

Strong, quick hard-bodied players who win their own ball and have excellent disposal under pressure are like hens teeth.

I would say each club has no more than two of them.

You can also receive it like Sherman and Griffen. I would also be playing Cooney in a more outside role. We know he CAN win his own hard ball, but given the number of players we have that can play inside and have dodgy disposal, I think cooney is more use to us outside.

[Ghost Dog]

You can also receive it like Sherman and Griffen. I would also be playing Cooney in a more outside role. We know he CAN win his own hard ball, but given the number of players we have that can play inside and have dodgy disposal, I think cooney is more use to us outside.


good point stefoid. He's also a great finisher closer to goal. If he does get a free within goal range, good set shot.

[BulldogBelle]

I like the stat they give in the Hun of total distance gained over the game per player. That has to be a good thing :confused:

Griff won it last week I think by a big margin.

[bornadog]

I like the stat they give in the Hun of total distance gained over the game per player. That has to be a good thing :confused:

Griff won it last week I think by a big margin.

Do you mean run and bounce? Interestingly Rob Murphy leads the AFL with run and bounce followed by Del SAnto who is equal with Josh Hill, and Heath Shaw. Murph is also second to Richmonds Newman for rebound 50's.

[Scorlibo]

Do you mean run and bounce? Interestingly Rob Murphy leads the AFL with run and bounce followed by Del SAnto who is equal with Josh Hill, and Heath Shaw. Murph is also second to Richmonds Newman for rebound 50's.

I think F32 means total metres gained - including how far the player's run and disposal carry the ball towards goal. Griffen usually dominates the stat due to his long kicking.

An interesting stat you provide with run and bounce. Bob has been in AA form in the first few rounds, could even have a few votes in the brownlow to this stage. Josh Hill has been an excellent surprise, and to have them both providing the equal best run and carry in the league to this stage is comforting.

[LostDoggy]

scoring assists leaderboard - that crucial last disposal to the guy who has the shot.
1 Daniel Giansiracusa 2.0
1 Shaun Higgins 2.0
1 Jordan Roughead 2.0
1 Thomas Liberatore 2.0
1 Jarrad Grant 2.0
1 Ryan Griffen 2.0

Very underrated stat this.
I know it is very "American" but an assist is a major stat. Most cases the last and second last peson to touch the ball before a goal has worked his backside off, then the glory boys finish the job.

[1eyedog]

Do you mean run and bounce? Interestingly Rob Murphy leads the AFL with run and bounce followed by Del SAnto who is equal with Josh Hill, and Heath Shaw. Murph is also second to Richmonds Newman for rebound 50's.

Some players bounce it 3 times over 20 metres.

[Greystache]

Some players bounce it 3 times over 20 metres.

The David King rule!

[bornadog]

Interesting stats come out of Saturdays game. Basically statistically (except score) we beat the Swans in most areas, it just a shame we couldn't captilise on it.

Contested possessions, we won 176/173

Uncontested a whopping 260/206

Tackles inside 50 11/7

Tackles overall, we were down by 10

Most other stats were even like hitouts, inside 50, etc

Free kicks 15 to 24, in my opinion disgraceful as many frees to the Swans were soft and there was no consistency.

Overall in the AFL we are getting a lot of the ball and sit 4th for disposals, but we are just not using the ball properly. I think this is due to our midfield who get alot of the ball but are not damging enough to the opposition. Boyd is 3rd on average disposals and Cross and Griffen are in the top 15 in the AFL, but effective disposals are less than 70% with Griffen sitting on 62%.

Our midfield needs to work harder on their skills and become damaging.

[BulldogBelle]

Interesting stats come out of Saturdays game. Basically statistically (except score) we beat the Swans in most areas, it just a shame we couldn't captilise on it.

Contested possessions, we won 176/173

Uncontested a whopping 260/206

Tackles inside 50 11/7

Tackles overall, we were down by 10

Most other stats were even like hitouts, inside 50, etc

Free kicks 15 to 24, in my opinion disgraceful as many frees to the Swans were soft and there was no consistency.

Overall in the AFL we are getting a lot of the ball and sit 4th for disposals, but we are just not using the ball properly. I think this is due to our midfield who get alot of the ball but are not damging enough to the opposition. Boyd is 3rd on average disposals and Cross and Griffen are in the top 15 in the AFL, but effective disposals are less than 70% with Griffen sitting on 62%.

Our midfield needs to work harder on their skills and become damaging.



Thanks bornadog

Do you have any numbers on effective disposals split by our midfielders???

And how this compared to other sides

We really need some outside players to step up and use the ball properly...

[bornadog]

Thanks bornadog

Do you have any numbers on effective disposals split by our midfielders???

And how this compared to other sides

We really need some outside players to step up and use the ball properly...

Top AFL AVERAGE DISPOSALS with effective disposals

1. Sam Mitchell - 74.5
2. D Swan - 70.3
3. Boyd - 68.3
4. J Watson - 70.1
5. M. Murphy - 71.3
6. Mundy - 76.9

12. Cross - 73.9
12. C Judd - 64

15. R Griffen - 62.3

24. Higgins (4 games only) 62.4

49. Cooney - 62.6

Cross hasn't been too bad, but Boyd really needs to lift. The outside players are way down.

[EasternWest]

Top AFL AVERAGE DISPOSALS with effective disposals

1. Sam Mitchell - 74.5
2. D Swan - 70.3
3. Boyd - 68.3
4. J Watson - 70.1
5. M. Murphy - 71.3
6. Mundy - 76.9

12. Cross - 73.9
12. C Judd - 64

15. R Griffen - 62.3

24. Higgins (4 games only) 62.4

49. Cooney - 62.6

Cross hasn't been too bad, but Boyd really needs to lift. The outside players are way down.

What percentage makes for an acceptable pass mark? Not being facetious, serious question.

[Greystache]

Cross hasn't been too bad, but Boyd really needs to lift. The outside players are way down.

Cross' % is high because most times he gets the ball he holds it up and the goes short to a player sideways. It makes your disposal efficentcy % high, but it kills the momentum of the team.

[bornadog]

Cross' % is high because most times he gets the ball he holds it up and the goes short to a player sideways. It makes your disposal efficentcy % high, but it kills the momentum of the team.

At least he hits a target unlike say Boyd.

[bornadog]

What percentage makes for an acceptable pass mark? Not being facetious, serious question.

Looks like the best midfielders are above 70%.

[Greystache]

At least he hits a target unlike say Boyd.

Boyd could up his too by doing the same thing, but if he did we'd never score. Anyone can hit a target 15m away in open space who's not being defended because they're not in a dangerous position. The bulk of Cross' possession in open play are valueless.

[bornadog]

Boyd could up his too by doing the same thing, but if he did we'd never score. Anyone can hit a target 15m away in open space who's not being defended because they're not in a dangerous position. The bulk of Cross' possession in open play are valueless.

Its easy to sit back and say that stats are misleading and pick out a couple of times this happens and then fling dirt.

Greystache, I know you don't like Cross, but please next time you go to the footy, keep some stats on how many times this happens with Cross and report back. Then we can see some facts.

eg. Against the Suns, posters came on and said that Stack fumbles too much and doesn't hit targets. I went back to the replay and counted how many times this happened in that game and the answer was nil. People get a preconception about a player due to seeing a couple of errors and that seems to stick into their mind instead of all the good things they do.

Maybe Cross does do what you say, and if so I am the first to agree with you. Maybe I am not as observant as you are during a game.

[Maddog37]

Harder to hit clear targets when our team does not spread well too.

I do believe the balance is somehow not right with Cross, Ward, Libba, Boyd, Picken and Wallis all playing.

Are the above two points linked?

[bornadog]

Harder to hit clear targets when our team does not spread well too.

I do believe the balance is somehow not right with Cross, Ward, Libba, Boyd, Picken and Wallis all playing.

Are the above two points linked?

I agree, too many in and under types.

The discussion was about the midfields effciency disposal %. Cross has the highest in the midfield, but Greystache says most of his disposals are valueless.

[Greystache]

Its easy to sit back and say that stats are misleading and pick out a couple of times this happens and then fling dirt.

Greystache, I know you don't like Cross, but please next time you go to the footy, keep some stats on how many times this happens with Cross and report back. Then we can see some facts.

eg. Against the Suns, posters came on and said that Stack fumbles too much and doesn't hit targets. I went back to the replay and counted how many times this happened in that game and the answer was nil. People get a preconception about a player due to seeing a couple of errors and that seems to stick into their mind instead of all the good things they do.

Maybe Cross does do what you say, and if so I am the first to agree with you. Maybe I am not as observant as you are during a game.

I think Cross has been a great player for the club and I admire a player who gets the most out of themselves, to say I don't like Cross is wrong. However I think the nature of footy these days has seen the game go past Cross.

I've watched him very closely at games, his first instinct is to go backwards or sideways. It's only when he doesn't have any options that he'll reluctantly look to kick forward. A player who does that will always have high efficiency %, but the effectiveness of those possessions are minimal, mostly because it gives the opposition time to set up defensively meaning the player he gives the ball to then has a wall of players in front of him.

[bornadog]

I think Cross has been a great player for the club and I admire a player who gets the most out of themselves, to say I don't like Cross is wrong. However I think the nature of footy these days has seen the game go past Cross.

I've watched him very closely at games, his first instinct is to go backwards or sideways. It's only when he doesn't have any options that he'll reluctantly look to kick forward. A player who does that will always have high efficiency %, but the effectiveness of those possessions are minimal.

Well maybe Moles, Cooney, or Griffen should be running pass to get the handball, its not his fault if he has the guts to put his head over the ball to find no backup. This is one of our biggest issues. Guys like Swan are surrounded by outside runners, but our in and unders often have no one to dish off to so they slam the ball on the foot or hand pass sides ways looking for someone.

[Greystache]

Well maybe Moles, Cooney, or Griffen should be running pass to get the handball, its not his fault if he has the guts to put his head over the ball to find no backup. This is one of our biggest issues. Guys like Swan are surrounded by outside runners, but our in and unders often have no one to dish off to so they slam the ball on the foot or hand pass sides ways looking for someone.

You're confusing the two different situations. When Cross wins the ball in a contest (usually through a courageous act) and doesn't have any runners to give the ball out to that's the fault of the outside players. When he gets given the ball in space and he holds up play and then goes sideways to another player in space that's Cross' fault.

I'm talking about the latter scenario.

If Cross was our primary extractor that would be fine, but he's not a great stoppage player, and we have an abundance of inside midfielders in Boyd, Libba, Cross, Ward, Cooney, and Wallis, and Picken, Cross doesn't have another dimension to his game.

[Ghost Dog]

Doggoneit, Cross has to be the most devisive player in here.
From "can't live without him"...to "can't live with him".

[jeemak]

You're confusing the two different situations. When Cross wins the ball in a contest (usually through a courageous act) and doesn't have any runners to give the ball out to that's the fault of the outside players. When he gets given the ball in space and he holds up play and then goes sideways to another player in space that's Cross' fault.

I'm talking about the latter scenario.

If Cross was our primary extractor that would be fine, but he's not a great stoppage player, and we have an abundance of inside midfielders in Boyd, Libba, Cross, Ward, Cooney, and Wallis, and Picken, Cross doesn't have another dimension to his game.

I think this post is spot on.

With exception to Cross being a player that can drop back and take a mark in front of opposition forwards. The downside of this though, is often when the ball isn't kicked long in to our backline Cross is busy gaurding space and not manning a loose player receiving the next, shorter kick in.

The game has passed by players that don't have an ability to move the ball forward by foot as a first instinct. Particularly midfielders in a side that is lacking for outside run.

For this I think Cross needs to have his place in the side looked at by some supporters just as often as Gia does. Gia's main deficiency is his inability to apply quick defensive pressure once he's not in a position to get it himself. Cross rarely being able to kick the football proactively causes just as many issues.

[Bulldog Joe]

Cross' % is high because most times he gets the ball he holds it up and the goes short to a player sideways. It makes your disposal efficentcy % high, but it kills the momentum of the team.

100% agree


At least he hits a target unlike say Boyd.

Not much value in hitting a target if the target is placed worse than you were when you got the ball 30 secs earlier.

There is simply more pressure on the next disposal because Cross took to long and passed off responsibility for doing something constructive.


Rating Cross as more efficient than Griffen just shows the stupidity of stats.

Griffen at least tries to do something constructive and creates more scoring opportunities.

[Scorlibo]

Top AFL AVERAGE DISPOSALS with effective disposals

1. Sam Mitchell - 74.5
2. D Swan - 70.3
3. Boyd - 68.3
4. J Watson - 70.1
5. M. Murphy - 71.3
6. Mundy - 76.9

12. Cross - 73.9
12. C Judd - 64

15. R Griffen - 62.3

24. Higgins (4 games only) 62.4

49. Cooney - 62.6

Cross hasn't been too bad, but Boyd really needs to lift. The outside players are way down.

What outside players? All of Griffen, Cooney and Higgins are first and foremost contested football players. This is a tremendously overrated statistic anyway. Having watched every game this year I can comfortably say that Griffen has been far more effective than he has been in any of his other midfield seasons.

[Bulldog Joe]

What outside players? All of Griffen, Cooney and Higgins are first and foremost contested football players. This is a tremendously overrated statistic anyway. Having watched every game this year I can comfortably say that Griffen has been far more effective than he has been in any of his other midfield seasons.
and far more effective with the ball than anyone else going through the midfield.

I would prefer Griff have it once then Cross have it 2 or 3 times, even allowing for the so called efficiency stats.

[EasternWest]

What outside players? All of Griffen, Cooney and Higgins are first and foremost contested football players. This is a tremendously overrated statistic anyway. Having watched every game this year I can comfortably say that Griffen has been far more effective than he has been in any of his other midfield seasons.

I wouldn't think Higgins is a contested football player. Not knocking him, but to me he looks more dangerous in open play.

[Scorlibo]

I wouldn't think Higgins is a contested football player. Not knocking him, but to me he looks more dangerous in open play.

When he was drafted, he was drafted as an inside midfielder. He soon impressed with his kicking and was given an outside job in order to play a role within the team, but he remains at his best an elite operator through heavy traffic and he now needs to assume the position he was drafted under. Higgins is more an inside midfielder than Cross is.

[Scorlibo]

and far more effective with the ball than anyone else going through the midfield.

I would prefer Griff have it once then Cross have it 2 or 3 times, even allowing for the so called efficiency stats.

I agree, but not because Cross is inefficient, but because he doesn't look to be damaging with his disposals.

[bornadog]

Some stats on rankings to round 14

Team Ranking

* 5th for tackles
* 6th for clearances
* 9th Contested possessions
* 4th in 1st possession
* 13th in kick to advantage
*14th for tackles i50
* 5th in centre bounce clearances
*6th in turnovers

Players

* Boyd 1st in disposals, clearances, 2nd in 1st poss, 9th in Cont poss and 3rd Unc poss
* Picken 14 in tackles
* Murphy 8th in R50, 3rd in Kicks to adv, 5th in Play on and 3rd in run and bounce.
* Morris 5th in 1percenters
* Sherman 9th in scoring ass

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Some stats on rankings to round 14

Team Ranking

* 5th for tackles

*14th for tackles i50


those 2 are very interesting. We are one of the better sides in tackling yet one of the worst for tackling I50. This is a HUGE indicator that our forwards are not doing enough! Yes we have known this but why hasn't it been fixed?

[stefoid]

Id say it has more to to with the gameplan and the quality of our I50s than the specific 6 forwards.

Remember, a forward press is pretty much every player in the side running into their own forward half. Who are the kings of this? eagles, pies, blues. And they make up 3 of the top 5 I50 tacklers.

The cats on the other hand, who are unbeaten on top of the ladder, are 13th for tackles inside 50.

The other 2 sides in the top 5 for T50s are sydney and freo, neither of which is going to threaten for the flag this year.

I dont think many of our players, including the 6 forwards, are lazy defensively. I do think we are doing a pretty good imitation of headless chooks out there on the field however.

[stefoid]

If you want to look at stats, we are pretty good at 1st hands on the ball, clearances, rebounding the ball out of our defensive 50, tackling...

But we suck at actually getting the ball through the midfield into our F50 and scoring. We are 10 inside 50s off the pace, and the quality of those I50s is lacking.

Our gameplan relies way too much on kicking long to packs, and when we do kick long we seem to have forgotten how to kick long to advantage - AND we are 20-30 uncontested marks off the pace of the top teams.

We have quality players, but our system is shot. Theoretically, this is something we should be able to turn around within 12 months.

[bornadog]

Looking at the stats for Saturday, we won most of the key stats that you need to win a game yet we lost by 49 points.

Contested P - 197 to 143

Clearances - 45 to 42

Tackles inside 50 14 to 8

Inside 50's 68 to 60

However we were beaten on rebound 50's, Turnovers, and total tackles.

Just goes to show stats do lie.

[Mantis]

Looking at the stats for Saturday, we won most of the key stats that you need to win a game yet we lost by 49 points.

Contested P - 197 to 143

Clearances - 45 to 42

Tackles inside 50 14 to 8

Inside 50's 68 to 60

However we were beaten on rebound 50's, Turnovers, and total tackles.

Just goes to show stats do lie.

What were the stats for uncontested marks?

At qtr time it was almost 40 to Essendon and less than 10 for us.

[bornadog]

What were the stats for uncontested marks?

At qtr time it was almost 40 to Essendon and less than 10 for us.

Huge difference in uncontested marks, which obviously came from the rebound 50's. taking the ball from one end to the other.

[Mantis]

Huge difference in uncontested marks, which obviously came from the rebound 50's. taking the ball from one end to the other.

It was also as a result of some very slack manning up, they burnt us on the counter attack... mostly due to our stupid turnovers.

[bornadog]

It was also as a result of some very slack manning up, they burnt us on the counter attack... mostly due to our stupid turnovers.

Yes thats right, that is the rebound 50's stat.

[LostDoggy]

It was also as a result of some very slack manning up, they burnt us on the counter attack... mostly due to our stupid turnovers.

I've been reflecting on this -- I agree that it was frustrating seeing their players spreading from their defence with all the freedom in the world, but I don't think it's as simple as slack manning up. Our mids were all in the forward 50 busting a gut to keep the ball in.. I remember Boydy (both our favourite whipping boy for being a lazy man-upper) diving in at players' feet repeatedly to attempt smothers, but when the ball spills loose and the Bombers manage to get it out of their 50 his player would be free as they are spreading forward as he is trying to pick himself up and run back.

It was crazy kamikaze stuff -- we probably don't really have the balance between a forward press and the rest of the field stuff right at the moment.

With our 'stupid turnovers' there was quite a few of those, but some of the turnovers just came from just bombing it into their forward 50 and giving possession up.

[SlimPickens]

We probably don't really have the balance between a forward press and the rest of the field stuff right at the moment.

Which is the big concern, this had to be our focus coming into this season. Our inability to perform and master a forward press and also our inability to work our way through it has been part of the reason for our fall back to the pack this year. It's also the reason i feel Rocket may struggle to hold his position next year.

[stefoid]

Looking at the stats for Saturday, we won most of the key stats that you need to win a game yet we lost by 49 points.

Contested P - 197 to 143

Clearances - 45 to 42

Tackles inside 50 14 to 8

Inside 50's 68 to 60

However we were beaten on rebound 50's, Turnovers, and total tackles.

Just goes to show stats do lie.

So obviously we won our share of the ball, but we didnt use it well.

[LostDoggy]

So obviously we won our share of the ball, but we didnt use it well.

No surprise there -- our ball magnet midfield would probably have the worst kicking skills of any team. Hudson, Crossy, Boydy, Ward, Libba and Griff can all win the ball, but every single one of them has middling to poor skills by foot in traffic (with apologies to Libba, who is two-footed and a beautiful short kick but only an okay long kick).

[bornadog]

No surprise there -- our ball magnet midfield would probably have the worst kicking skills of any team. Hudson, Crossy, Boydy, Ward, Libba and Griff can all win the ball, but every single one of them has middling to poor skills by foot in traffic (with apologies to Libba, who is two-footed and a beautiful short kick but only an okay long kick).

Libba was at 80% efficiency for his 20 disposals.

[LostDoggy]

Libba was at 80% efficiency for his 20 disposals.

He's a beauty isn't he. Just class in traffic.

[Greystache]

I've been reflecting on this -- I agree that it was frustrating seeing their players spreading from their defence with all the freedom in the world, but I don't think it's as simple as slack manning up. Our mids were all in the forward 50 busting a gut to keep the ball in.. I remember Boydy (both our favourite whipping boy for being a lazy man-upper) diving in at players' feet repeatedly to attempt smothers, but when the ball spills loose and the Bombers manage to get it out of their 50 his player would be free as they are spreading forward as he is trying to pick himself up and run back.

It was crazy kamikaze stuff -- we probably don't really have the balance between a forward press and the rest of the field stuff right at the moment.

With our 'stupid turnovers' there was quite a few of those, but some of the turnovers just came from just bombing it into their forward 50 and giving possession up.

If we actually set our forward press up properly Boyd wouldn't be inside our forward 50m trying to hold it in, he'd be further up the ground so his opponent wouldn't be free to burn us on the rebound. Our setup is a shambles, mostly because we're trying to implement it on the run, basically because we realised our plans weren't going to hold up this season and are now trying to copy what other teams are doing.

[Sedat]

Our setup is a shambles, mostly because we're trying to implement it on the run, basically because we realised our plans weren't going to hold up this season and are now trying to copy what other teams are doing.With our skill set in the midfield, we'd argubly be more successful adopting the Sydney stoppage shuffle circa 2005-6. We'd be burnt on the rebound far less and it would play to our contested possession strengths. Butt ugly to watch every week though

[LostDoggy]

With our skill set in the midfield, we'd argubly be more successful adopting the Sydney stoppage shuffle circa 2005-6. We'd be burnt on the rebound far less and it would play to our contested possession strengths. Butt ugly to watch every week though

I've been saying this for three years.

The prelims we've looked best in (and closest to winning) have been the ones where we've been able to shut the game down and make it a low-scoring arm wrestle. With our skillset I would back us against anyone in that type of game, but make it a big ground runaround and we'll kick the ball away most of the day and not have the legspeed to keep up with faster teams (which is everyone these days) anyway.

We can still clearly match anyone in the contested possession stats (won them in a game we lost by 50 points), but what Sydney 2005/6 does that we don't is keeping possession as much as possible for 4 quarters. We try to do the gun and run style that we just don't have the personnel for anymore and just end up giving the ball away ad nauseum.

[Greystache]

With our skill set in the midfield, we'd argubly be more successful adopting the Sydney stoppage shuffle circa 2005-6. We'd be burnt on the rebound far less and it would play to our contested possession strengths. Butt ugly to watch every week though

Yep, I've had the same opinion as you for some time Sedat. Not only were we training to play a game style that's redundant, but is also completely unsuited to our playing list. Some of our players are good kicks when under no pressure, but horrible when under the pump, so why in God's name do we then instruct them to play on at all costs? If we actually hung onto the ball and tried to spot up players under no pressure then our kicking efficiency might not be one of the worst in the AFL.

Sydney's game style might have been ugly, but in my opinion playing an attacking style we can't execute is even worse to watch.

[chef]

He's a beauty isn't he. Just class in traffic.

On a sidetracked note, I hope they give him number 6 next year.

[the banker]

Yep, I've had the same opinion as you for some time Sedat. Not only were we training to play a game style that's redundant, but is also completely unsuited to our playing list. Some of our players are good kicks when under no pressure, but horrible when under the pump, so why in God's name do we then instruct them to play on at all costs? If we actually hung onto the ball and tried to spot up players under no pressure then our kicking efficiency might not be one of the worst in the AFL.

Sydney's game style might have been ugly, but in my opinion playing an attacking style we can't execute is even worse to watch.

The stats are pretty damning of our game style and its execution giving us such a bad result. I think we look chaotic at times a bit of crash or crash through with no secure game plan to help us control the tempo. Teams get away from us too easily.

This post and the general feeling in this thread, IMO calls for a change. I have been a big fan of Rocket and he has been a fantastic coach for us, but all good things come to an end. I think we need a fresh approach. Rocket and Melbourne look a great match.

But who for the Dogs?

[stefoid]

Maybe Im wrong, because I havent been able to see a lot of footy this year, but my impression is we dont do what Sydney did when they played that style which was bring the ball up the ground with repeated short passing to retain posession. Unless there is someone obviously free, we tend to kick long and wide to a contest.

But yeah, the difference between when Murphy is running out of defence and someone else is immense in the opportunities it tends to create. These days you need 3 or 4 Murphys playing in defence to opent he game up for your side. Loosing Harbrow hurt us more than we realize I reckon.

Howard and Tutt look to be just what the doctor ordered in that regard, nice forward thinking by the club -- they cant really come on quick enough, can they?

Its also why I like the sound of this McKenzie guy from the other thread - a smart player who can read the play well, play in defence or midfield and an elite kick off either foot under pressure? bring it on!

Dont despair guys, we can do a 'west coast' next year if we do the right things during the preseason.

[LongWait]

The stats are pretty damning of our game style and its execution giving us such a bad result. I think we look chaotic at times a bit of crash or crash through with no secure game plan to help us control the tempo. Teams get away from us too easily.

This post and the general feeling in this thread, IMO calls for a change. I have been a big fan of Rocket and he has been a fantastic coach for us, but all good things come to an end. I think we need a fresh approach. Rocket and Melbourne look a great match.

But who for the Dogs?

Almost certain to be Leon Cameron if Rocket is not re-appointed.

[chef]

Almost certain to be Leon Cameron if Rocket is not re-appointed.

I would be happy with him or Neeld.

[Mantis]

Almost certain to be Leon Cameron if Rocket is not re-appointed.

It is?

No thanks.

[the banker]

Neeld had good poise on Insiders last night. But not up to speed on his coaching attributes and footy philosophy. Can someone enlighten?

[Maddog37]

It is?

No thanks.

Why?