Round 3 teams

[Greystache]

HS reporting

In- Lake, Gilbee
Out- Jones, Djerrkura

[Greystache]

GC

In- Weller, Coad, Gorringe
Out- Fraser (ankle), Lock, Toy

[BulldogBelle]

Tough, but absolutely wrapped with that decision.

[anfo27]

would that mean Lake will play forward?

[BulldogBelle]

HS reporting

In- Lake, Gilbee
Out- Jones, Djerrkura


So Markovic stays in the side, even with the inclusion of Lake.

Exciting that Lake may play more of a floating defender role, rather than having the responsibility of having to lock down and constantly focus on the oppositions number 1 forward.

Notwithstanding the GC's #1 forward has only played 1 game ;-)

[Greystache]

Perhaps a heart/form related ankle there for Josh Fraser.

[LostDoggy]

Fraser injured, I can't believe Collingwood got Krakouer for a guy they were going to delist.

[Greystache]

So Markovic stays in the side, even with the inclusion of Lake.

Exciting that Lake may play more of a floating defender role, rather than having the responsibility of having to lock down and constantly focus on the oppositions number 1 forward.

Notwithstanding the GC's #1 forward has only played 1 game ;-)

It's a tall team, Lake may play forward at times. Perhaps switching with Markovic who's played forward before, or even Williams.

[LostDoggy]

I have a feeling its really Lake for Hall

[Greystache]

Fraser injured, I can't believe Collingwood got Krakouer for a guy they were going to delist.

Peter Street version 2.0

Maybe GC have engaged the services of Peter "the mastermind" Rhode.

[LostDoggy]

HS reporting

In- Lake, Gilbee
Out- Jones, Djerrkura




Idiocy reigns at Match Committee.

Imagine not playing Jones against the kids who've played only six times less than he has.

This decision marks the first sign of my biggest fear this year; that an out of contract Eade won't lift his eyes up from this season and will compromise our chances in the next two years as a result.

[LostDoggy]

Can't believe Jones is out, he plays a vital role for us in my opinion.

[Mofra]

The final teams aren't announced until 90 minutes before play are they? ;)

[Ozza]

Idiocy reigns at Match Committee.

Imagine not playing Jones against the kids who've played only six times less than he has.

This decision marks the first sign of my biggest fear this year; that an out of contract Eade won't lift his eyes up from this season and will compromise our chances in the next two years as a result.

I had a suspicion you'd be riled up about that one Rocket.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Tend to agree with Rocket. Jones should be playing against the Gold Coast, even though his form doesn't warrant it.

However, happy to see Markovic get another opportunity. He has deserved it. Will be interesting to see if they play all of Lake, Markovic and Williams in defence. I suspect one may go forward, in which case a late change (Hall out) could be possible as Chops alluded to.

Somebody was going to be stiff. It was either Jones or Markovic. Do you side with youth, or form?

I don't think it's such a bad call.

[BulldogBelle]

Idiocy reigns at Match Committee.

Imagine not playing Jones against the kids who've played only six times less than he has.

This decision marks the first sign of my biggest fear this year; that an out of contract Eade won't lift his eyes up from this season and will compromise our chances in the next two years as a result.

Chill out, it's one game, and who does it help if Jones dominates against lesser and inexperienced opposition?

Markovic has plenty of years left in him so there is still development there, and it was either him or Jones.

[Grantysghost]

Interesting... Im dissapointed they've dropped Jones, i think he presents well and provides good defensive pressure up forward and takes a tall back, but im interested to see how the Lake/Markovic double team works out.

[The Pie Man]

Remember that Roughead, who is at the same experience level as Jones, can spend plenty of time forward.

Sounds like (from the hints on this thread) there may be a late change anyway.

Good vote of confidence in Stack & Markovic. DJ I presume needs some match conditioning after essentially playing 1 game in 2

[bornadog]

Western Bulldogs

B: Brennan Stack, Brian Lake, Dale Morris
HB: Liam Picken, Tom L. Williams, Robert Murphy
C: Daniel Cross, Matthew Boyd, Justin Sherman
HF: Josh Hill, Barry Hall, Shaun Higgins
F: Daniel Giansiracusa, Jordan Roughead, Jarrad Grant
Foll: Ben Hudson, Adam Cooney, Ryan Griffen
I/C: Lindsay Gilbee, Callan Ward, Lukas Markovic, Thomas Liberatore

Emg: Liam Jones, Nathan Djerrkura, Mitchell Wallis
In: Lindsay Gilbee, Brian Lake
Out: Liam Jones, Nathan Djerrkura

Gold Coast Suns

B: Michael Coad, Nathan Bock, Campbell Brown
HB: Seb Tape, Karmichael Hunt, Nathan Krakouer
C: Jarrod Harbrow, Daniel Harris, Michael Rischitelli
HF: Harley Bennell, Charlie Dixon, Daniel Stanley
F: Jared Brennan, Daniel Gorringe, Brandon Matera
Foll: Zac Smith, Gary Ablett, David Swallow
I/C: Maverick Weller, Alik Magin, Trent McKenzie, Dion Prestia

Emg: Marc Lock, Josh Toy, Matt Shaw
In: Maverick Weller, Michael Coad, Daniel Gorringe
Out: Marc Lock, Josh Fraser (Ankle), Josh Toy
New: Maverick Weller (Burnie Dockers, TAS), Michael Coad (Sturt, SA), Daniel Gorringe (Norwood, SA)

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Going by that, could Markovic be the sub?

[LostDoggy]

Chill out, it's one game, and who does it help if Jones dominates against lesser and inexperienced opposition?




You mean besides Jones himself and the team as a whole?

I don't have time to rewrite the same argument, so please forgive the arrogance in quoting myself:





Jones must spend the season in the seniors.

He has only played six games, he just turned twenty, and his first year at the club was spent playing school footy. His development for the long term must be a priority and he'll only learn about AFL football by playing in the seniors.

Quality key position forwards don't grow on trees. That's why we've only been able to develop one of them in the past twenty one years (and he debuted in 1990).

The dominant key forwards in the game today have significant experience:

Brown - 201 games
Riewoldt - 198 games
Hall - 275 games
Pavlich - 237 games
Franklin - 121 games
Roughead - 126 games
Cloke - 125 games

With the exception of Brown (who besides being a freak started with the best midfield in the AFL on his side and with other big bodies around him), the players listed above weren't match winners at the beginning of their careers. All of them played games much worse than Jones did against Essendon; but all were backed in by their clubs and given the time needed to develop because football clubs understand that key position forwards are the rarest and most valuable commodity in football.

Even the young forwards in the league who hope to become the next generation of stars have at least five times the experience that Jones has.

Jack Riewoldt was seen as Johnny Come Lately last year, but is in fact playing his 70th game this week. His performances in his first thirty games were hardly awe inspiring, but Richmond continued to play him.

Tippett's played 65 games, Dawes has played 31, Hurley has played 30, Henderson has played 35, Hansen has played 51 and Gumbleton has played 22 (and he needs a lot more time which Essendon will give him). Patty Ryder is developing nicely; he's played 94 games so far.

Once again, Jones has played in the seniors just six times.

He has potential and the club genuinely believes that he can make it, so we have to give him every opportunity to develop. Jones' selection shouldn't be a week by week proposition; it should be a certainty unless he is injured or not obeying instruction or team rules.

If we don't back Jones in (and Grant - who looks much better after his 22 games in the seniors so far) this year then we'll be missing our only opportunity of building a post-Hall forward line that will be ready when Barry retires.

They simply have to play. If that costs us sometimes, then we simply have to wear it.




When writing that, I forgot about the improvement West Coast are seeing in Josh Kennedy, who is really starting to look the goods after his seventy games in the system. Kennedy was beyond hit and miss in his early days at Carlton but they and West Coast persisted with him and he is now paying them back for their faith.

We just kicked a seven game tall out of our team. Who does that help?

[LostDoggy]

Agree with everything from the above ^

[bornadog]

You mean besides Jones himself and the team as a whole?

I don't have time to rewrite the same argument, so please forgive the arrogance in quoting myself:





When writing that, I forgot about the improvement West Coast are seeing in Josh Kennedy, who is really starting to look the goods after his seventy games in the system. Kennedy was beyond hit and miss in his early days at Carlton but they and West Coast persisted with him and he is now paying them back for their faith.

We just kicked a seven game tall out of our team. Who does that help?

I think Jones missed due to his height as Suns have a short backline and with Roughead in the team one had to be dropped. Jones is still only 20 and he needs to gain some confidence at Willi, especially his marking which has been down.

[LostDoggy]

I can see Jones as a late inclusion for Hall, if he's under an injury cloud why risk him?

[LostDoggy]

I had a suspicion you'd be riled up about that one Rocket.




I'm nothing if not consistent. ;)

I know I've been banging on about playing Jones and Roughead repeatedly, but I really do think that they are that important to our future.

We are a chance at winning the flag this year, but if we don't then it doesn't mean that our Premiership Window is closing. We'll still have an excellent list even if we were to lose Hall, Hudson and another thirty year old from our super draft; but our kids won't be ready to replace them if we don't put the time into them this year and the talls take more time.

[Bulldog4life]

It's a tall team, Lake may play forward at times. Perhaps switching with Markovic who's played forward before, or even Williams.

I've been thinking the same way myself. Perhaps they'll start off with Markovic at CHF. If that move works they could swap Lake & Markovic anytime they want.

[LostDoggy]

I've been thinking the same way myself. Perhaps they'll start off with Markovic at CHF. If that move works they could swap Lake & Markovic anytime they want.

Where does Williams play?

[azabob]

Going by that, could Markovic be the sub?

Guess it depends on how much gametime they think Lake can play. Weird choice of sub otherwise.

[Before I Die]

We just kicked a seven game tall out of our team. Who does that help?

And we have just retained a two game tall who has shown beter form in the first two games.

Don't get me wrong, I am a Jones fan, but when Lake came back a tall had to go out, and out of Jones, Markovic and Roughead (who by the way is a nine game tall), Jones was the obvious choice.

Also the argument that players get better after 70 odd games is a self fufilling prophecy as the ones who are no good don't get that many games.

[Before I Die]

It's a tall team, Lake may play forward at times. Perhaps switching with Markovic who's played forward before, or even Williams.

No taller than last week.

Markovic has played back, forward and in the ruck last year at Williamstown. He may not be as quick as Jones, but he gives us more flexibility. I am quite excited to see what he can offer us.

I am also confident that Jones can become a good player, but he still has some way to go and a trip back to Williamstown won't do him any harm.

[Bulldog4life]

Where does Williams play?

Williams CHB & Lake FB.

[LostDoggy]

Also the argument that players get better after 70 odd games is a self fufilling prophecy as the ones who are no good don't get that many games.




That's not the argument I was making. With respect, I think you have missed my point entirely.

The point I was making was that in the early stages of their careers, the majority of the forwards I listed performed at no greater level than Jones has since his debut. All of their teams were prepared to keep playing them in the seniors so that they would have the chance to develop into good players. We have to do the same with Jones and Roughead.

History has shown that young talls won't develop exclusively in the VFL and that they may not be great for some time to come (if they make it at all), but smart teams bite the bullet and play them anyway when they think they have a chance to become match winners.

Once again, we haven't successfully introduced a key position forward since 1990. They are the rarest and most valuable commodity in football. I've been really happy with Markovic this year, but playing in defense is a hell of a lot easier than playing as a forward. No one at the club has suggested that he will be anything more than a solid defender; with Jones we have the potential for something better.

[chef]

I can see Jones as a late inclusion for Hall, if he's under an injury cloud why risk him?

That's what I'm thinking too.

[Before I Die]

That's not the argument I was making. With respect, I think you have missed my point entirely.

No, I understood your post, I just don't agree. However, I don't want to get into a tit for tat situation so I am happy to just agree to disagree regarding the need to play talls at AFL level if they are to improve.

What I am happy to debate is the merit of playing a player based on potential rather than form. You earn your place in the team and you retain it on merit. When two players can't be separated on form you play the younger one when you are in the development stage and the older one when winning is all important.

But if it is a choice between two young key position players, ie Markovic and Jones, you pick the form player. Picking on potential which has not been reflected in form is just kidding yourself.
Our Captain was a rookie selection. Maxwell at the Pies was a rookie and was seen as a plodder in his early years. What is to say Markovic can't become a key player at the Dogs.

Jones stays means Markovic goes or we are to top heavy. I can't support that selection. However, if Hall doesn't come up, I would be very happy to see Jones come in.

[always right]

I have high hopes for Jones but I've yet to see any real evidence of his much vaunted contested marking. Has this been over-rated by posters or is he simply struggling to take his marks up against senior footballers?

[LostDoggy]

I have high hopes for Jones but I've yet to see any real evidence of his much vaunted contested marking. Has this been over-rated by posters or is he simply struggling to take his marks up against senior footballers?

I find that he struggles to judge the flight of the ball at AFL level, seems to be jumping to early.

[LostDoggy]

But if it is a choice between two young key position players, ie Markovic and Jones, you pick the form player.




Gosh it must be fun being a young forward.

You spend your first game of the year being triple teamed whilst your midfield kicks at fifty percent and spend the second working hard into space and chasing well in the hardest position on the ground; but you spill a few marks so you're deemed out of form and kicked out of the team.

Being a young defender seems like the easier gig. You follow your man instead of creating play, you punch instead of mark and you have Morris and Williams as backup if the ball comes in high. You can hold your head up high after your team gets smashed because you were resolute whilst your midfield was rubbish, and can be given great kudos after playing on a nobody against a team that could only manage six goals.

Markovic has been terrific so far. I like his composure and hope he does well, but to suggest that his current form dictates that he continue in the seniors over Jones makes the mistake of underestimating the difficulty of playing at centre half forward.

We've developed a number of tall defenders in the last twenty one years but only one forward; who, incidentally, was also the best centre half back I've ever seen play for us and who has regularly stated that it is much easier to play in defense than up forward. On radio on Sunday afternoon, the Great Man in question said that the club needs to get as many games into Jones as possible.






What I am happy to debate is the merit of playing a player based on potential rather than form. You earn your place in the team and you retain it on merit.




This is exactly why I've been banging on so much about playing Jones and Roughead around here.

The question of retaining a spot on merit requires an understanding of what level of performance 'merit' constitutes. Does Jones with his seven games of experience and playing in the hardest position on the ground have to be a match winner? Does he have to clunk a few contested marks each week? Does he have to kick three goals? A certain number of goal assists?

None of the big forwards in the game (except Brown) achieved those things consistently if at all in their first twenty odd games but all were better for having played them. Before I Die has already compared him to a young defender as his performance evaluation and that simply isn't right. 'Merit' for Jones needs to be adhering to the forward structures, chasing hard, moving into the right positions and developing an understanding with our midfielders. As he develops, his value to the team will increase.

If playing Jones instead of another runner, or playing Roughead instead of Minson, constitutes playing players on potential rather than form then so be it. Good clubs do it because they understand the importance of finding and developing quality tall forwards. Hell, even Peter Rohde was vaguely aware of the concept back in his Mastermind days at the Kennel, playing the kid Harris (with fourteen games experience) in defense seventeen times in 2004 at the expense of the fantastic Matthew Croft.

Whilst our position on the ladder is now greatly improved, the need for developing young tall forwards is as important now as it was then. Jones, Roughead and Grant have to be given every chance now or one day we will come to rue the fact that we didn't. Who knows, maybe with twenty more games under their belts they could make a difference for us this September.

[mjp]

I am happy to support all of the arguments put forward by 'The Rocket' and agree with his points about developing talls.

It is worth keeping in mind though that:

- Josh Kennedy played in wooden spoon sides at Carlton and West Coast.
- Nick Riewoldt was in a bottom 3 side at the 'aints.
- Brown was in the wooden spoon group at Brisbane.
- Hall played as a CHB-come Ruckman at St Kilda.
- Fremantle were a basket case for much of Pavlich's early games and won 2 spoons.
- Franklin and the Hawks went through a LOT of pain on the scoreboard....
....

I am happy to go on. We are not in the same situation as those sides and whilst I agree Jones needs games he doesn't need to play every week. He is not going to play every week. We are supposed to be trying to win a flag THIS year, which means we need to make sure our match-ups and team structure is set to beat a few sides (including Collingwood) who do run 3 tall forwards out there on occasion.

Jones will occasionally miss and occasionally play. As long as the balance is being managed, I will be happy enough...to me, if Lake plays then one of Markovic or Jones needs to go out...the MC have decided it will be Jones this week...so be it.

[LostDoggy]

I'm not disappointed they've dropped Jones. Yes he is young and needs to gain experience. But he has looked quite poor in the last 2 hitouts (some others have also I understand that). And we do have a lot of players capable of playing forward, especially the way we have traded in the off-season

[Greystache]

I am happy to support all of the arguments put forward by 'The Rocket' and agree with his points about developing talls.

It is worth keeping in mind though that:

- Josh Kennedy played in wooden spoon sides at Carlton and West Coast.
- Nick Riewoldt was in a bottom 3 side at the 'aints.
- Brown was in the wooden spoon group at Brisbane.
- Hall played as a CHB-come Ruckman at St Kilda.
- Fremantle were a basket case for much of Pavlich's early games and won 2 spoons.
- Franklin and the Hawks went through a LOT of pain on the scoreboard....
....

I am happy to go on. We are not in the same situation as those sides and whilst I agree Jones needs games he doesn't need to play every week. He is not going to play every week. We are supposed to be trying to win a flag THIS year, which means we need to make sure our match-ups and team structure is set to beat a few sides (including Collingwood) who do run 3 tall forwards out there on occasion.

Jones will occasionally miss and occasionally play. As long as the balance is being managed, I will be happy enough...to me, if Lake plays then one of Markovic or Jones needs to go out...the MC have decided it will be Jones this week...so be it.

Are you talking about Jonathan Brown at Brisbane? His first 76 games were in a team that made the semi-final, then went on to win the next 3 flags. We're in exactly the same situation Brisbane were in when Brown was given games.

[LostDoggy]

Can't believe Jones is out, he plays a vital role for us in my opinion.

He's not ready for this level IMO. Continuously drops marks, forward pressure is average. I think he can play long-term; but play at Willy for a few weeks for mine. Roughead makes more sense and Markovic deserves his spot on the last two weeks more than Jones does. All the best for Liam's career in the future but Roughy adds more to the dynamic as a better rounded prospect at the moment for mine.

[MrMahatma]

Def want to put games into Jones, and the GC seem like the perfect opp, but I have to agree that he hasn't been setting the world on fire.

Let's not forget that in that line up we have 7 players with fewer than 50 games, and 2 more between 50-60 games.

It's not like we're rolling out Dad's army at the expense of youth entirely.

[SlimPickens]

[QUOTE=Superdog;207310]He's not ready for this level IMO. forward pressure is average[QUOTE].

For a big guy, I actually think his forward pressure has been one of his strengths, the chase through the centre which he should have got a free kick against Brisbane springs to mind. Gave the no-name Brisbane player 15m, chased him down and caused incorrect disposal, if only the umpire had paid the free.

[always right]

I'm not disappointed they've dropped Jones. Yes he is young and needs to gain experience. But he has looked quite poor in the last 2 hitouts (some others have also I understand that). And we do have a lot of players capable of playing forward, especially the way we have traded in the off-season

And how many of these do you believe will be suitable replacements for barry Hall when he retires next year?

Personally I would like them to persevere with Jones as he looks our best (only?) key position rospect.

[Mantis]

For a big guy, I actually think his forward pressure has been one of his strengths, the chase through the centre which he should have got a free kick against Brisbane springs to mind. Gave the no-name Brisbane player 15m, chased him down and caused incorrect disposal, if only the umpire had paid the free.

What I am hearing is that his defensive pressure is a little reactionary in that he waits for the play to unfold rather than predicting what will happen. It often means he arrives a little later to the contest than perhaps he should, but I guess its hoped that this will improve with experience.

[G-Mo77]

I can see Jones as a late inclusion for Hall, if he's under an injury cloud why risk him?

I don't think we're going to throw any smoke screens out there and keep Gold Coast guessing. it hardly seems worth it. I'd be very surprised if Hall didn't play.

[SlimPickens]

What I am hearing is that his defensive pressure is a little reactionary in that he waits for the play to unfold rather than predicting what will happen. It often means he arrives a little later to the contest than perhaps he should, but I guess its hoped that this will improve with experience.

Fair enough, you can't fault his effort however and what you're pointing out will come with experience. I like Jones and like The Rocket feel he should get as much experience at senior level before Hall retires. I would hope he plays 15+ games this year.

[bornadog]

Fair enough, you can't fault his effort however and what you're pointing out will come with experience. I like Jones and like The Rocket feel he should get as much experience at senior level before Hall retires. I would hope he plays 15+ games this year.

Some game time at Willi won't hurt him at all.

[Mantis]

Fair enough, you can't fault his effort however and what you're pointing out will come with experience. I like Jones and like The Rocket feel he should get as much experience at senior level before Hall retires. I would hope he plays 15+ games this year.

As do I and in a perfect world he would be in my team too, but the MC have thought a spell at Willi would be good for him such that he can address a few parts of his game which have been failing him.

I'm pretty sure the MC would want to get games into him for the reasons you ( & The Rocket) have described, but the occasional run at Willi where he can be the focus of the forwardline will certainly help his development... I guess if he is left down there for extended periods it may cause concern, but I doubt this will happen.

[SlimPickens]

As do I and in a perfect world he would be in my team too, but the MC have thought a spell at Willi would be good for him such that he can address a few parts of his game which have been failing him.

I'm pretty sure the MC would want to get games into him for the reasons you ( & The Rocket) have described, but the occasional run at Willi where he can be the focus of the forwardline will certainly help his development... I guess if he is left down there for extended periods it may cause concern, but I doubt this will happen.

Hope you're right.

[the banker]

Would like to see Lake play the floating defensive role - what a weapon.
Hall CHF Roughie FF can work with Grant/Higgins/Gia (cooney/Griff) providing a quick leading target alongside him. This side looks balanced.
When Hudson is benched, Grant to CHF, BBBH to FF. Lake swing?
Lots of options.

[The Coon Dog]

Would like to see Lake play the floating defensive role - what a weapon.


Agree with this. Brian, see ball, get ball.

[mjp]

Are you talking about Jonathan Brown at Brisbane? His first 76 games were in a team that made the semi-final, then went on to win the next 3 flags. We're in exactly the same situation Brisbane were in when Brown was given games.

Really???

Jonathon Brown was drafted in 1999. Apologies but I thought it was 98 when he was drafted. Setting that aside, you are going to tell me that playing Brown up forward coming off a wooden spoon (like Brisbane were in 99) is EXACTLY the same situation as us playing Jones coming off 3 prelims? It is not the same. It is nowhere close to the same. They basically had a free hit in 1999 - expectations were zippo and what was the worst thing that could happen? They lose games? They were coming off a wooden spoon for goodness sake.

Us - we drop a single game against Essendon and the supporters go into meltdown. And with nearly 10000 people not renewing from last year - after a prelim - supporters is a term used in the very broadest sense.

This week it came down to Markovic or Jones and the MC picked another young player in Markovic. What is wrong with that? Jones has played 3 times as many games as he has...doesn't he need to play as well? Maybe we should drop Hall or leave Lake in the magoos? Or maybe Grant should miss out...or we use Jones as ruck backup and drop Roughead? Because they are pretty much the choices we had.

We can only play 22. That is all we can play. Addison needs games too. So does Howard to be perfectly honest...but they can't all be squeezed in.

[Ghost Dog]

Really???


Us - we drop a single game against Essendon and the supporters go into meltdown. And with nearly 10000 people not renewing from last year - after a prelim - supporters is a term used in the very broadest sense.

.

What proof do you have that the two events are linked?
The loss to Essendon and being down on memberships?

The fact is, a lot of people are doing it hard at the moment. I live in the west and teach adults, so I know a bit about that.
A single income for a family with two kids of 30,000 doesn't get you far these days in Melbourne.
A recent survey of Marybinong residents ( Melb leader reported this ), paid survey mind you of residents across melb, found those in that area to be the unhappiest in Melbourne ( Job, Home, Family, Social life )
So before taking a swipe at people for not being members, try to consider the current situation in Melbourne for many families.

Two hobarts ( population ) or several Ballarats have been added to Melbourne in the past 9 years. Alot of that growth has put enourmous stress on people.

[LostDoggy]

And how many of these do you believe will be suitable replacements for barry Hall when he retires next year?

Personally I would like them to persevere with Jones as he looks our best (only?) key position rospect.

Shouldn't need a replacement. We probably have done better (on paper) without him. Yes he has been our shining star last year, but who said we need another big full forward again after he goes?

[Greystache]

Really???

Jonathon Brown was drafted in 1999. Apologies but I thought it was 98 when he was drafted. Setting that aside, you are going to tell me that playing Brown up forward coming off a wooden spoon (like Brisbane were in 99) is EXACTLY the same situation as us playing Jones coming off 3 prelims? It is not the same. It is nowhere close to the same. They basically had a free hit in 1999 - expectations were zippo and what was the worst thing that could happen? They lose games? They were coming off a wooden spoon for goodness sake.

Us - we drop a single game against Essendon and the supporters go into meltdown. And with nearly 10000 people not renewing from last year - after a prelim - supporters is a term used in the very broadest sense.

This week it came down to Markovic or Jones and the MC picked another young player in Markovic. What is wrong with that? Jones has played 3 times as many games as he has...doesn't he need to play as well? Maybe we should drop Hall or leave Lake in the magoos? Or maybe Grant should miss out...or we use Jones as ruck backup and drop Roughead? Because they are pretty much the choices we had.

We can only play 22. That is all we can play. Addison needs games too. So does Howard to be perfectly honest...but they can't all be squeezed in.

Do you want to revisit all of this and post again?

Brown ws drafted in 1999, his first season was 2000. In 1999 Brisbane finished 3rd and made the prelim final (beating us in the semi final). Brown's first season at Brisbane was 2000, where they made the semi final. The next 3 years they won the flag. So I say again, Brisbane were in almost EXACTLY the same situation as us.

I'm not claiming the decision to drop Jones was right or wrong, the point is teams don't have to be at the bottom of the ladder to get games into a young KPF.

[1eyedog]

Good call and the right one to reward Markovic with an extra game before Jones comes back in.

[The Pie Man]

What proof do you have that the two events are linked?
The loss to Essendon and being down on memberships?

The fact is, a lot of people are doing it hard at the moment. I live in the west and teach adults, so I know a bit about that.
A single income for a family with two kids of 30,000 doesn't get you far these days in Melbourne.
A recent survey of Marybinong residents ( Melb leader reported this ), paid survey mind you of residents across melb, found those in that area to be the unhappiest in Melbourne ( Job, Home, Family, Social life )
So before taking a swipe at people for not being members, try to consider the current situation in Melbourne for many families.

Two hobarts ( population ) or several Ballarats have been added to Melbourne in the past 9 years. Alot of that growth has put enourmous stress on people.

That's all true Ghost Dog, though I don't think it's unreasonable of mjp to contend that early season form can influence membership numbers, as it has seemed to historically - do I have definitive proof of that? No I don't - pretty confident it is the case though.

No swipe at those struggling financially intended at all.

And having said that, I think the club has gotten a lot better at building the membership base pre-season than it ever has.

[Mofra]

Are you talking about Jonathan Brown at Brisbane? His first 76 games were in a team that made the semi-final, then went on to win the next 3 flags. We're in exactly the same situation Brisbane were in when Brown was given games.
Brown was a classic mesomorph who also performed well in his first games - better than Jones IMO.

Jones is only in his second year of playing against men (playing school footy during the first year on our list). It's not like his non-selection (which is sus considering Hall may not play anyway) equates to being cut from the list.

I note other promising young talls in top sides such as Rhys Stanley (StK), Mitch Brown (Geel), Jesse White (Syd) and Lachie Henderson (Carl) aren't given a free ride into their respective teams either

[mjp]

The fact is, a lot of people are doing it hard at the moment. I live in the west and teach adults, so I know a bit about that.


Spare me. More than 25% of our members have not renewed. Are 25% of people really doing it tougher than they were 12-months ago?

When people say our supporters 'lack the passion and commitment of other teams', this is what it is about. Only 22000 to the seasons first home game? Give me a break - that is a disgraceful crowd and points to a lack of enthusiasm and support...

Are you trying to tell me that the disappointment of the 2010 finals and big first up loss to Essendon haven't contributed to the lower level of renewals?

[LostDoggy]

Do you have to be a member or physically go to a game to be a passionate supporter?

[The Pie Man]

Brown was a classic mesomorph who also performed well in his first games - better than Jones IMO.


It is a while back (10 years) but from what I can recall of seeing a young Jon Brown play was that he came in physically prepared to have an impact - he was a large man at 18.

[Mahama]

Shouldn't need a replacement. We probably have done better (on paper) without him. Yes he has been our shining star last year, but who said we need another big full forward again after he goes?

Let's not forget the reason we got Barry Hall in the first place; to provide some kind of decent target up forward during the finals, who would at least make a contest out of long bombs into the forward line, so as to prevent a Fisher/Mackie/Maxwell from taking an easy mark and rebounding the ball straight back out. With the recent emphasis on forward pressure, preventing these kinds of easy rebounds has become even more vital, and so having a big full forward ready to replace Barry is something the club needs to work on.

Our list of players who can adequately fill this role is somewhat limited, especially if you exclude Will Minson (who appears to be losing his battle with Jordan Roughead in any case) and Brian Lake (who is of course so important down back).

Liam Jones is probably our best option after Barry Hall, and given Hall's age and our recent experience with losing players for finals through injury, I'm of the opinion that we should be preparing Liam Jones for a key finals role as well as possible, which means playing him when his form may not warrant it.

Keep in mind we were forced to debut Hooper in last year's semi-final; he kicked a important goal, sure, but barely touched it all night, and no doubt would've benefited from extra games earlier in the season. At the time there was much moaning from supporters about the lack of foresight from the club in not getting more games into our depth players, so I'd think that remedying that situation in areas of poor depth would be a priority for the club this season.

Basically, if we lose Barry Hall for the finals, Liam Jones will be our contest-maker up forward, and I'd rather he had 25 games in him than 10 if that time comes.

In saying all that, if Markovic proves he can hold down Full Back on the top notch forwards, perhaps Brian Lake as the backup to Barry Hall becomes the preferred option, so from that viewpoint I have no problem with the week's selections!

[mjp]

Do you want to revisit all of this and post again?

Brown ws drafted in 1999, his first season was 2000. In 1999 Brisbane finished 3rd and made the prelim final (beating us in the semi final). Brown's first season at Brisbane was 2000, where they made the semi final. The next 3 years they won the flag. So I say again, Brisbane were in almost EXACTLY the same situation as us.

I'm not claiming the decision to drop Jones was right or wrong, the point is teams don't have to be at the bottom of the ladder to get games into a young KPF.

OK - I had been working from memory but will look it up.

Brisbane finishes:

1998: 16th
1999: 3rd (Brown Drafted)
2000: 6th (Brown played 16 games)

Bulldogs finishes:

2008: 3rd (Jones drafted)
2009: 3rd (Jones played school footy, Bulldogs recruit Barry Hall)
2010: 4th (Jones plays 5 games, Halls wins goalkicking)

The situations are simply not the same. If you changed the Brisbane comments in 1999 to 'Brown drafted, Lions recruit Tony Lockett' then maybe you can do a straight comparison. The reason this becomes important is that although Brown's numbers in his first year are not massively better than Jones (though did feature a 23 possession performance) Brisbane were not trying to get games into another tall, highly rated draftee (Grant) at the same time whilst also supporting another new recruit (though I admit they had Lynch). Given Jones spent a year playing school footy, if he has played 16-20 games by the end of this year he is really not that far behind Brown is he?

My point remains - every circumanstance is unique and pointing at Brown, Pavlich and Riewoldt (and whoever else was mentioned) and saying 'Look - those clubs played them' does not apply to us. My other point remains - it was going to be Lake, Hall, Markovic or Jones who missed out. The MC chose Jones. Why is this a problem???

[Greystache]

Brown was a classic mesomorph who also performed well in his first games - better than Jones IMO.

Jones is only in his second year of playing against men (playing school footy during the first year on our list). It's not like his non-selection (which is sus considering Hall may not play anyway) equates to being cut from the list.

I note other promising young talls in top sides such as Rhys Stanley (StK), Mitch Brown (Geel), Jesse White (Syd) and Lachie Henderson (Carl) aren't given a free ride into their respective teams either

Brown wasn't my example, I was merely refuting you have to be a bottom side to get games in young key forwards.

FWIW- Brown's stats were mediocre for his first 3 years, all of which were in a top 4 side.

2000- 13 games, ave 9.5 disposals, 3.6 marks, 0.4 goals
2001- 25 games, ave 13.9 disposals, 6.3 marks, 1.5 goals
2002- 19 games, ave 12.1 disposals, 5.1 marks, 0.7 goals

Jones

2010- 5 games, ave 9.4 disposals, 4.0 marks, 1.2 goals
2011- 2 games, ave 8 disposals, 3.0 marks, 0.5 goals

[Greystache]

OK - I had been working from memory but will look it up.

Brisbane finishes:

1998: 16th
1999: 3rd (Brown Drafted)
2000: 6th (Brown played 16 games)

Bulldogs finishes:

2008: 3rd (Jones drafted)
2009: 3rd (Jones played school footy, Bulldogs recruit Barry Hall)
2010: 4th (Jones plays 5 games, Halls wins goalkicking)

The situations are simply not the same. If you changed the Brisbane comments in 1999 to 'Brown drafted, Lions recruit Tony Lockett' then maybe you can do a straight comparison. The reason this becomes important is that although Brown's numbers in his first year are not massively better than Jones (though did feature a 23 possession performance) Brisbane were not trying to get games into another tall, highly rated draftee (Grant) at the same time whilst also supporting another new recruit (though I admit they had Lynch). Given Jones spent a year playing school footy, if he has played 16-20 games by the end of this year he is really not that far behind Brown is he?

My point remains - every circumanstance is unique and pointing at Brown, Pavlich and Riewoldt (and whoever else was mentioned) and saying 'Look - those clubs played them' does not apply to us. My other point remains - it was going to be Lake, Hall, Markovic or Jones who missed out. The MC chose Jones. Why is this a problem???

I don't have a big problem with Jones going out this week, I've already said that, so long as it's not for an extended period. I was simply pointing out that you can be a top 4 side and still get games into a young key forward who's not doing a lot. I was disappointed he was dropped for the finals last year given we weren't going to beat anyone of quality, but that's an old discussion now.

Grant's not a key forward, he may become one late in his career but it's probably not likely. He's the quickest player in our forward line, is the best crumber, and applies the best defensive pressure. I don't see him as a developing tall, more as a versatile midsized forward.

[Ghost Dog]

Spare me. More than 25% of our members have not renewed. Are 25% of people really doing it tougher than they were 12-months ago?
When people say our supporters 'lack the passion and commitment of other teams', this is what it is about. Only 22000 to the seasons first home game? Give me a break - that is a disgraceful crowd and points to a lack of enthusiasm and support...

Are you trying to tell me that the disappointment of the 2010 finals and big first up loss to Essendon haven't contributed to the lower level of renewals?

Yes MJP. People at the coal face will tell you many are. I can give you some stats if you care. Somehow I think you don't so as requested, I will 'spare you'.

Yes, low turn out points to lack of support. Because many people have other worries.

You made the point so you prove it. What's the connection between the big loss to Essendon and the low renewal rate of supporters? Where is your proof?

[LostDoggy]

Shouldn't need a replacement. We probably have done better (on paper) without him. Yes he has been our shining star last year, but who said we need another big full forward again after he goes?




Have you watched a game of footy this year, mate?

The big forwards are becoming even more important now that the long kick into the forward line has come back into the game.

Looking back just a little, let's see:


Premiership Key Forwards on Grand Final Day

2010 - Collingwood - Cloke and Dawes

2009 - Geelong - Mooney and Hawkins

2008 - Hawthorn - Franklin and Roughead

2007 - Geelong - Mooney

2006 - West Coast - Lynch and Hansen

2005 - Sydney - Hall

2004 - Port Adelaide - Tredrea

2003 - Brisbane - Lynch, Bradshaw and Brown

2002 - Brisbane - Lynch and Brown

2001 - Brisbane - Lynch, Bradshaw and Brown

2000 - Essendon - Lloyd and Lucas


I, for one, am definitely saying that we need key position forwards once Hall goes. I doubt a team can win a Premiership without them.

[LostDoggy]

Willy have arrived in Perth.

I think this is the back of Jones' head:


http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg620/scaled.php?tn=0&server=620&filename=gxlim.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640

[bornadog]

Yes MJP. People at the coal face will tell you many are. I can give you some stats if you care. Somehow I think you don't so as requested, I will 'spare you'.

Yes, low turn out points to lack of support. Because many people have other worries.



Many people do have other worries but not the whole of the Western Suburbs of 600,000 plus. Forget the single mums etc they can't afford a membership, however there are many that would rather spend their money on the following and then say they don't have the money for membership:

* Cost of cigarettes = per packet about $14? Most people smoke a pack a day
* A coffee per day $3.50
* Beer - $3 , $4 per pot?

Compare to:

Membership equals =
* $180 Adult or 50cents per day
* Family = $360 or $1 per day (approx)

Personally, I believe we have a core of about 20,000 and the rest don't care about the dogs unless they win.

Like GVGjr I have known plenty of people who claim they are supporters but don't buy a membership ticket.

Solution

I have said this before on this forum and others, we have sell membership as not just a ticket to a game but more. Membership is being a member of a club, like the golf club, or tennis club etc. You don't play tennis every week or golf but you are a member. Therefore there has to be something else that entices you to buy a CLUB membership. I have plenty of ideas but will write about that another time.

[LostDoggy]

Have you watched a game of footy this year, mate?

The big forwards are becoming even more important now that the long kick into the forward line has come back into the game.

Looking back just a little, let's see:


Premiership Key Forwards on Grand Final Day

2010 - Collingwood - Cloke and Dawes

2009 - Geelong - Mooney and Hawkins

2008 - Hawthorn - Franklin and Roughead

2007 - Geelong - Mooney

2006 - West Coast - Lynch and Hansen

2005 - Sydney - Hall

2004 - Port Adelaide - Tredrea

2003 - Brisbane - Lynch, Bradshaw and Brown

2002 - Brisbane - Lynch and Brown

2001 - Brisbane - Lynch, Bradshaw and Brown

2000 - Essendon - Lloyd and Lucas


I, for one, am definitely saying that we need key position forwards once Hall goes. I doubt a team can win a Premiership without them.

Have always thought the same.

[LostDoggy]

I think we need to look at why Markovic has been preferred to Jones in this match. Jones has not marked the ball with the assurity that is needed for a CHF. If Markovic can play back, then Williams or Lake can play forward, especially against opposition like the Suns and they should do the job at least as well as Jones has done. In any event, the dropping of simple marks and getting himself out of position for contests can mean a 2 goal turn around. He should be marking it like a Higgins or a Lake in a 2 or 3 man contest. He needs to get that right before returning. I think Markovic gives us slightly more options with how we move around the back half. For example, is Jones up to playing FB (if Marko was omitted) so as to release Lake to go forward? However a problem against the best teams would be where do you play Markovic if we have to play Lake at full back. It's then we might find we need a an improved Jones in the forward line.

I also think we need to get game time into Jones (as the best way for him to improve his marking and positioning) but it's no biggie if he doesn't play every week. Extra coaching at Willi is no bad thing.

If Hall doesn't play, I wonder how Jones would go at full forward on his own for a whole game. You would think this would be a game to find out....(unless of course they go with Lake at FF, Jones at CHF, which they can plan for more easily with Markovic in the side).

Markovic appears to have done more of what is required of him than Jones thus far.

[bornadog]

I think we need to look at why Markovic has been preferred to Jones in this match. Jones has not marked the ball with the assurity that is needed for a CHF. If Markovic can play back, then Williams or Lake can play forward, especially against opposition like the Suns and they should do the job at least as well as Jones has done. In any event, the dropping of simple marks and getting himself out of position for contests can mean a 2 goal turn around. He should be marking it like a Higgins or a Lake in a 2 or 3 man contest. He needs to get that right before returning. I think Markovic gives us slightly more options with how we move around the back half. For example, is Jones up to playing FB (if Marko was omitted) so as to release Lake to go forward? However a problem against the best teams would be where do you play Markovic if we have to play Lake at full back. It's then we might find we need a an improved Jones in the forward line.

I also think we need to get game time into Jones (as the best way for him to improve his marking and positioning) but it's no biggie if he doesn't play every week. Extra coaching at Willi is no bad thing.

If Hall doesn't play, I wonder how Jones would go at full forward on his own for a whole game. You would think this would be a game to find out....(unless of course they go with Lake at FF, Jones at CHF, which they can plan for more easily with Markovic in the side).

Markovic appears to have done more of what is required of him than Jones thus far.

I think its pretty simple.

Markovic has performed well in the two games. Lake hasn't played this year, therefore Markovic is insurance.

Jones is a tall. Roughead is a tall and plays ruck and forward. GC are short in the backline, therefore one had to go.

[DOG GOD]

Markovic may be the sub and go on for lake at 3 qtr time.

[mjp]

Do you have to be a member or physically go to a game to be a passionate supporter?

YES.

If you claim to be a supporter then you should be a member. That is all there is too it.

[Ghost Dog]

Many people do have other worries but not the whole of the Western Suburbs of 600,000 plus. Forget the single mums etc they can't afford a membership, however there are many that would rather spend their money on the following and then say they don't have the money for membership:

* Cost of cigarettes = per packet about $14? Most people smoke a pack a day
* A coffee per day $3.50
* Beer - $3 , $4 per pot?

Compare to:

Membership equals =
* $180 Adult or 50cents per day
* Family = $360 or $1 per day (approx)

.

Prob should be in the 'membership' thread
For starters, we are not talking about Single mothers.
I know ordinary working people who had their rent put up four times in the last year ( Seddon, Middle and west Footscray )
Almost 10,000 former members don't suddenly forsake their club over one game.... That's a big number.

[mjp]

Yes MJP. People at the coal face will tell you many are. I can give you some stats if you care. Somehow I think you don't so as requested, I will 'spare you'.

Yes, low turn out points to lack of support. Because many people have other worries.

You made the point so you prove it. What's the connection between the big loss to Essendon and the low renewal rate of supporters? Where is your proof?

Many people have other worries?

No disrespect, but I think I understand. Having opened a small business and not drawn a wage for more than 12-months, I think I understand difficult financial circumstances. I also undertake a voluntary counselling role for people suffering from depression twice per week - and if you think this means I don't have any understanding or empathy or I am not 'at the coal face' then you just flat out wrong. As with everything, what you are talking about is choices being made by people and what they consider to be important.

Membership for a family costs me just over $1.50 per day (I have 3 kids)...that is not a lot of money regardless of your circumstances (as mine will prove).

It is about support and passion.

You want to correlate events? In 2008 we played Brisbane in Melbourne before a crowd of 39320. The week before that, we beat the Saints, the week before that we knocked over the Hawks...a couple of years later we draw just 22K to the same fixture one week after being spanked by Essendon.

You will say it has nothing to do with the Essendon result and is purely related to financial circumstances. I say it has more to do with our so-called supporters who simply don't stick when times are tough. Prove it? How? Good luck.

[Rocco Jones]

Not saying it's right or wrong but I truly believe we have nearly exhausted/exhausted a lot of our fans due to the combination of our poor history and the whole losing prelims thing.

Maybe it's just me but I have really noticed our fans being more negative than ever. I really think our prelim losses as well as a rather poor record in 'big' games have turn the cynical volume to full blast.

[Greystache]

Not saying it's right or wrong but I truly believe we have nearly exhausted/exhausted a lot of our fans due to the combination of our poor history and the whole losing prelims thing.

Maybe it's just me but I have really noticed our fans being more negative than ever. I really think our prelim losses as well as a rather poor record in 'big' games have turn the cynical volume to full blast.

I think you're on the money there Rocco.

I get the feeling a lot of our supporters feel like we've reached the end of our upward climb. I don't think people expect us to drop away too much, but when you don't think we'll go any further it can make everyone feel a bit apathetic and reluctant to commit the emotional energy of other years. Even on WOOF there was quite a few who weren't pumped about the upcoming season, and we're the hardcore supporter group.

[LostDoggy]

Not saying it's right or wrong but I truly believe we have nearly exhausted/exhausted a lot of our fans due to the combination of our poor history and the whole losing prelims thing.

Maybe it's just me but I have really noticed our fans being more negative than ever. I really think our prelim losses as well as a rather poor record in 'big' games have turn the cynical volume to full blast.

If that's true then many of our fans are gutless. Win or lose I support the club, it's not conditional.

[LongWait]

If that's true then many of our fans are gutless. Win or lose I support the club, it's not conditional.

Not everyone is like us Chops - that is why the loss to Essendon is unforgivable and was so destructive. Many (including members of my family I'm ashamed to say) think that we will slide badly because we were so poor against Essendon. It reinforced our inabaility to beat good opposition and convinced many to use the money to pay down credit card debt or put a little money away rather than buy a membership.

[Ghost Dog]

Many people have other worries?

No disrespect, but I think I understand. Having opened a small business and not drawn a wage for more than 12-months, I think I understand difficult financial circumstances. I also undertake a voluntary counselling role for people suffering from depression twice per week - and if you think this means I don't have any understanding or empathy or I am not 'at the coal face' then you just flat out wrong. As with everything, what you are talking about is choices being made by people and what they consider to be important.

Membership for a family costs me just over $1.50 per day (I have 3 kids)...that is not a lot of money regardless of your circumstances (as mine will prove).

It is about support and passion.

You want to correlate events? In 2008 we played Brisbane in Melbourne before a crowd of 39320. The week before that, we beat the Saints, the week before that we knocked over the Hawks...a couple of years later we draw just 22K to the same fixture one week after being spanked by Essendon.

You will say it has nothing to do with the Essendon result and is purely related to financial circumstances. I say it has more to do with our so-called supporters who simply don't stick when times are tough. Prove it? How? Good luck.

Fatigued. 9,000 people vote with their feet. Financially or otherwise, the choose not to commit. It's a huge problem and affects the on field performance of the club. That's a fact.

You can shout 'toughen up' to 9000 people if you want, but that's unlikely to attract them back to the club. Especially those, I hazard a guess, a growing proportion, who saw the round 1 result as an excuse to opt out in order to spend their money on other things.

$1.50 a day may not be much for some. However, the facts are that many people are under growing stress in the west amd other parts of Melbourne. It carries over to the business of membership.
That's the way it is.

By the way, no disrespect either but most business owners don't draw a wage in their first year. *shrug*
Your volunteer work sounds interesting - Maybe they have a slot for you at the Whitten oval? September is a busy time in the counselling rooms there I hear!:D

It will take some serious inspiration on field and clever work by the club to win back these members. The club must also feel a down about it, given the team this season is very very good.
The fact is we are not a financially strong club in a part of melbourne where many people live because its a cheap area to live.

Of course it's not purely about round one. 9,000 people is too many for that to be true.

We need some innovation! I say we organize a boxing match. Danny Green V Barry Hall - members only!

[G-Mo77]

Of course it's not purely about round one. 9,000 people is too many for that to be true.


I disagree with that. There are so many people who use the wait and see approach before they even consider buying a membership. Granted it probably not the whole 9,000 but I'd be willing to put money on it being well over half of those made their minds up in the 2nd quarter of round 1. I'd rather not have these fickle douche bags but unfortunately they are needed. A win over Freo and even a gallant performance against Collingwood would wrangle up quite a few of them.

[Ghost Dog]

I disagree with that. There are so many people who use the wait and see approach before they even consider buying a membership. Granted it probably not the whole 9,000 but I'd be willing to put money on it being well over half of those made their minds up in the 2nd quarter of round 1. I'd rather not have these fickle douche bags but unfortunately they are needed. A win over Freo and even a gallant performance against Collingwood would wrangle up quite a few of them.

right. If you got $12 dollars an hour sanding at a panel beaters you would be careful with your money too. you can call it fickle if you want. It doesn't change the reality of life for many people living in the western suburbs.

[G-Mo77]

right. If you got $12 dollars an hour sanding at a panel beaters you would be careful with your money too. you can call it fickle if you want. It doesn't change the reality of life for many people living in the western suburbs.

I'm not talking about people who can't afford it, so many can and won't put their money down.

On another topic. $12 an hour? Seriously? A little less exaggeration. :)

[Ghost Dog]

I'm not talking about people who can't afford it, so many can and won't put their money down.

On another topic. $12 an hour? Seriously? A little less exaggeration. :)

No exaggeration. My sisters ex, who lives in the flat near her. The rent increased in their block four times in the last month. He used to follow the footy, but no longer does.
The rise in rents is a serious kill joy in melb.

[GVGjr]

No exaggeration. My sisters ex, who lives in the flat near her. The rent increased in their block four times in the last month. He used to follow the footy, but no longer does.
The rise in rents is a serious kill joy in melb.

In my opinion for every example like the one you have detailed there are twice as many that just can't be bothered. That is the challenge for the club.
Anyway, lets not get too obsessive with this as the thread has certainly gotten way off track.

[bornadog]

Not saying it's right or wrong but I truly believe we have nearly exhausted/exhausted a lot of our fans due to the combination of our poor history and the whole losing prelims thing.

Maybe it's just me but I have really noticed our fans being more negative than ever. I really think our prelim losses as well as a rather poor record in 'big' games have turn the cynical volume to full blast.


I think you're on the money there Rocco.

I get the feeling a lot of our supporters feel like we've reached the end of our upward climb. I don't think people expect us to drop away too much, but when you don't think we'll go any further it can make everyone feel a bit apathetic and reluctant to commit the emotional energy of other years. Even on WOOF there was quite a few who weren't pumped about the upcoming season, and we're the hardcore supporter group.

Collingwood didn't win a flag for 33 years and has won two in 50. Their supporters stick with them through thick and thin.

[Greystache]

Collingwood didn't win a flag for 33 years and has won two in 50. Their supporters stick with them through thick and thin.

They've played in 15 Grand Finals and won 2 flags since our last one. They're hardly starved of success. Regularly playing in grand finals does a hell of a lot more for your supporter base than a handful of honourable preliminary final losses.

[LostDoggy]

So... round 3 teams anyone?

If the team stays as it is, do we expect Marko to play forward at all?
Will lake be subbed off for gilbee? Can roughy handle ff past today? Is hall at Cfh a short term prospect as well?
I don't the team structured as listed for long periods today.

[EasternWest]

So... round 3 teams anyone?

If the team stays as it is, do we expect Marko to play forward at all?
Will lake be subbed off for gilbee? Can roughy handle ff past today? Is hall at Cfh a short term prospect as well?
I don't the team structured as listed for long periods today.

I reckon it'll be a Lake for Markovic sub or vice versa.

[Mantis]

Collingwood didn't win a flag for 33 years and has won two in 50. Their supporters stick with them through thick and thin.

Just over 10 years ago they were last on the ladder and $5 mil in debt... They were on their knees.

Only through the contribution of Eddie & the team he has built have we seen them rise to the power they are now.

[Sockeye Salmon]

No exaggeration. My sisters ex, who lives in the flat near her. The rent increased in their block four times in the last month. He used to follow the footy, but no longer does.
The rise in rents is a serious kill joy in melb.

That's illegal

[Mofra]

No exaggeration. My sisters ex, who lives in the flat near her. The rent increased in their block four times in the last month.
Rents cannot rise more than 10% in a calender year IIRC, so he may want to contact the residential tenancy board.

In any case I really don't think if we had beaten Essendon we would still have 8,000+ unsigned members from last year. To suggest that a poor start to the season is not a contributing factor doesn;t make sense.

[ledge]

Gee I came in here to look at the round 3 games, I got that wrong.

[bornadog]

They've played in 15 Grand Finals and won 2 flags since our last one. They're hardly starved of success. Regularly playing in grand finals does a hell of a lot more for your supporter base than a handful of honourable preliminary final losses.

Fine thats true. How about Richmond, have played in two finals in 28 years and they could fill the MCG if they wanted. Still getting fantastic crowds and have a bigger membership base than us.

[bornadog]

Just over 10 years ago they were last on the ladder and $5 mil in debt... They were on their knees.

Only through the contribution of Eddie & the team he has built have we seen them rise to the power they are now.

That wasn't the fault of the supporters, that was previous mismanagement by the administrators of the club.

We were down and out at the end of 1996 and Smorgon and co have done a great job to get us the best facilities in the AFL (and everyone is now copying), steady the ship, post some profits and now working on the debt. Too bad the supporters won't get behind us. We should have the whole of the Western Suburbs supporting us, or even 10% would give us 60,000, but we barely have 5%

[Greystache]

Fine thats true. How about Richmond, have played in two finals in 28 years and they could fill the MCG if they wanted. Still getting fantastic crowds and have a bigger membership base than us.

Richmond has a massive supporter base due to the number of premierships they've won over an extended period, their fan base dwarfs our. Until they struggled in the past 28 years they were a powerhouse of the AFL/VFL. They claim if they can start winning on field again they can generate 75,000 members. Yet for the past 20 years they've barely managed more members than us, and their crowds are not much bigger. I think that proves that despite their massive supporter base their supporters WON'T sign up through thick and thin.

[bornadog]

Getting back on to the thread.

Anyone have a gut feeling Hall won't play today and Mitch will come in?

[LostDoggy]

Getting back on to the thread.

Anyone have a gut feeling Hall won't play today and Mitch will come in?

Yep thats been my feel since he was named an emergency on Thursday

[G-Mo77]

Getting back on to the thread.

Anyone have a gut feeling Hall won't play today and Mitch will come in?

I think he'll play. I don't see the point in firing off smoke screens to the Gold Coast.

[G-Mo77]

If there was any doubt I'm pretty sure they would have pulled him from the team. Had it been a game against one of the better sides then I'm sure they would have waited until the last minute to decide.

I'm sure now that I have said that Barry Hall will be a late withdrawal from the team. :D

[Ghost Dog]

That's illegal

Apparently not. That law, which used to exist, no longer does. Anyway. Back on the thread.