Picken - do we need a hard tag?

[stefoid]

Im getting over the hard tag. We used to lament not having a hard tag because certain players would run amok, but Im not sure these days that Picken really is keeping those players under wraps any more. Seems like his effectiveness at keeping quality opponents out of the game is diminishing.

Im not sure why that is, perhaps its just that his opponents have had a look at his style and prepare for him.

But regardless, do we need a hard tag at all? Collingwood dosnt do it. They may have a run with player who follow the opposition player around the ground, but at stoppages those players set up the way collingwood wants them to set up, with their priority being to help collingwood win and clear the ball.

A hard tag that is extremely effective in shutting down an opposition play maker is worthwhile, but anything less than that I think is a liability these days.

I think it might be getting to the stage where we want a player with a more rounded role in the midfield rather than a hard tag. Whether that player is still Picken, Im not sure, but it stands to reason that if Picken is sitting in his opponents pocket when we win the ball, he isnt presenting an option for a clean clearance, is he?

Do we want to keep on with the hard tag?

If no, can Picken play a different role?

[Remi Moses]

What are people's thoughts on Liam being a defensive forward?

[bornadog]

Good discussion Stefoid. I agree, the midfield is the midfield and they should be held accountable for their opponent. I like Liam in the back pocket against the small forward which everyone seems to have these days. He played that role well in the preseason and has started in the backline a few times this season.

[the banker]

Good discussion. Hard tags seem to work on players suceptible to them eg Hill Some players eg Swan and other highly rotated players are difficult to tag.

Picken has kicked a few vital goals, could see him as a defensive forward. Good reader of the play. By the same token he looks suited to taking the small forward as well. Be interested to hear how he sees himself.

[Dry Rot]

Defensive forward.

Put him we here we most need him. Knows how to kick a goal too.

[jeemak]

We need Cross and Boyd to play more defensively through the middle. Both are creative enough and win enough of the ball to hurt teams going our way to a point, and when they apply themselves they can both shut down opposition mids. Having said that, their game would have to be more defensively geared because they'll struggle to impact the game going forward on a head to head basis as much as their opponents.

I agree that Picken could be well used as a defensive forward. If there's an obvious small forward for him to man up and nullify then you can swap things around, but it's blindingly obvious that we need more pressure from out forward six.

[LostDoggy]

If there's an obvious small forward for him to man up and nullify then you can swap things around, but it's blindingly obvious that we need more pressure from out forward six.

From the first three rounds its pretty clear that pressure all over hasn't improved much from last year. Somehow we just forgot to how to tackle from about round 9 2010. Clearly the new blood adds a sense of desperation (libba's first three rounds). I hope they find a place for both Wallis and Addison as once played they'll be desperate to be retained and might push out some of those that are shying from the contest. I'll name names - Gia and Grant. I admire both but this is a massive weakness for each that's costing us IMO. I'd try Picken, Wallis and Addison all up forward alongside Roughy, BBB and Higgins. Better balance of attacking and defensive forwards IMO.

[Ghost Dog]

Is the MC or Coach going to be risque enough to pick up on any of this?
Brilliant idea IMO but doubt it's going to happen under Rocket.
A couple of snaps kicked by Picken last year were all class. Great finishing confidence.
Alot of Taggers don't have that touch of class around goal.

[bornadog]

From the first three rounds its pretty clear that pressure all over hasn't improved much from last year. Somehow we just forgot to how to tackle from about round 9 2010. .

We are currently sitting equal 5th (with Freo) in average tackles per game. I would say we have improved in this area.

[LostDoggy]

We are currently sitting equal 5th (with Freo) in average tackles per game. I would say we have improved in this area.

OK, fair-nuff. Wasn't aware of this stat. I would love to see a stat that better qualified the effectiveness of tackles. Many that we seem to lay in the foward 50 (in particular) seem to get awarded in the stats yet lack true effectiveness in changing the gameplay. I'll be delighted to be proven wrong in the next two weeks. If we get the pressure right we are a chance in both games. It will be another Essendon bloodbath if we don't. I'm thinking the answer to the question raised in this thread might be that we may not need a hard tag but we definately need Billy Picken; The Hardest Man :cool:

[jeemak]

Tackling isn't the only aspect of forward pressure. Teams need to position players to block avenues opposition defenders would prefer to take when clearing the ball, or take the space away from potential receiving players.

Our tackle count in the forward 50 would naturally incrase if we got our defensive positioning right. I often see three of our players run to the ball carrier, leaving one or two opposition players free to receive. It frustrates the hell out of me, but it's someting I've noticed as I've started going to more games over the last couple of years.

If one player nominates to attack the ball carrier, and the rest stay off covering potential hand ball receivers the opposition is likely to bomb high and wide which would play into the hands of our zoning half backs and mids.

I'm not sure whether it's a coaching/tactical issue or an application issue on behalf of the players. Either way, a side like Collingwood has gotten it right and know how they need to position themselves when teams are attempting to move the ball forward from defense.

[FrediKanoute]

Good discussion. Hard tags seem to work on players suceptible to them eg Hill Some players eg Swan and other highly rotated players are difficult to tag.

Picken has kicked a few vital goals, could see him as a defensive forward. Good reader of the play. By the same token he looks suited to taking the small forward as well. Be interested to hear how he sees himself.

High rotations were ultimately a means of combatting a hard tag. If you rotated the guy being tagged through the bench then he would end up fresher. The main characteristics of a tagger were a player of above average endurance who was relatively low skilled. ROtations meant that the main weapon, endurance was blunted.

Personally, midfield accountability is more important these days than having a nullifying player. On the odd game it works is great, but its more a tactic as part of an overall stategy, rather than a stategy in itself. Picken for mine would be better off as a defensive forward. Offers us more there I feel.

[Dry Rot]

Is the MC or Coach going to be risque enough to pick up on any of this?
Brilliant idea IMO but doubt it's going to happen under Rocket.
A couple of snaps kicked by Picken last year were all class. Great finishing confidence.
Alot of Taggers don't have that touch of class around goal.

The Cats skipper is a good example.

Normally a negating player, if Ling gets the ball on the forward line it's often a goal.

Both Picken and Ling started footy life as forwards, IIRC.

[stefoid]

Good point about quicker rotations - that probably makes it harder to tag as well.

But why have a 'defensive forward'? Isnt that just like a hard tag in the midfield? Robbing yourself of offensive ability in order to set up defensively?

It would be better to have all offensive forwards who also happen to chase when we dont have the ball -- not just one guy who is the 'defensive guy'

Does this mean that people only see picken as a defensive only player, but not capable of actually playing in defense?

[LostDoggy]

Here's a stat:

Picken is 98% 1%ers.

This guy sacrifices himself to the betterment of the team every time he hits the turf.

[LostDoggy]

I do not have any statistical evidence to back up my previous statistic.

[Sedat]

Good point about quicker rotations - that probably makes it harder to tag as well.

But why have a 'defensive forward'? Isnt that just like a hard tag in the midfield? Robbing yourself of offensive ability in order to set up defensively?
The modern game dictates that all forwards should have the requisite defensive mindset when the time demands it. Not much point having one designated defensive forward if the rest of the forward line won't assist in chasing, harrassing and coralling the rebounding defenders - the extra numbers down back will invariably find the weak link(s) in the chain and successfully clear a path out of defensive 50. Freo is a good example - De Boer is their nominated 'defensive forward' but everyone that spends time in the forward 50 will do their bit defensively when the opposition has the ball, which really should be the minimum requirement from all your forward group. Similarly everyone that spends time on Collingwood's front half also does their bit to pressure the opposition rebounders to try and lock it in forward 50. St Kilda in '09 and '10 were the epitome of team-defence in their forward 50 - they even performed the minor miracle of turning the Tiprat into a player dedicated to defensive pursuits when the opposition has the ball. Unfortunately that hasn't been the case with our forward group since the start of last season. That doesn't mean you should stack your forward line with a bunch of McQualter's and Eddy's, but our most offensive weapons simply have to apply sustained and meaningful defensive pressure when the ball is in the opposition's hands - this has not happened anywhere near enough in our forward line since the start of last season, probably because this defensive orientation does not come naturally to most of our offensive-minded forward line group.

Dogs remind me of Arsenal in the EPL in that we love to kick pretty coast to coast goals with sublime forward 50 entries, but are not prepared to fight and scrap to score ugly goalmouth scrambles in order to get the result. If we cannot spot up the forward 50 target with precision, we are not likely to win the ball back inside forward 50 and keep it locked in there.

[Ghost Dog]

I think we have lacked the speed to really pressure opponents inside 50 but the intent has been there.

[LostDoggy]

Here's a stat:

Picken is 98% 1%ers.

This guy sacrifices himself to the betterment of the team every time he hits the turf.

Don't know about your stats Marcov, but I do agree that Pickers puts all on the line every time he gets on the field.
Wish we had a few more with his guts

[LostDoggy]

Yes, it's a very good question about what to do with Picken now that is role within the team has been effectively removed by a rule change.

It does seem that we are trying to structure the team without at least two tagging/ shutdown players , once Picken named himself as our hard tag but he's now relegated to the bench . The Sub rule I think has effectively cut out the tagging/ shutdown role , the role now is a Midfield Grinder , Libba quite quickly defined how that role works , grind your opponent down by working harder for the ball and spreading it quickly to the running midfielders . Picken has now been forced to reinvent his role within the side , in reality he is almost a clone of Brad Johnson , same size and shape , quick over 30m , if he was switched to FP he would have to prove how good he is at leading for the ball and overhead marking , I would have no problem with his hardness at the ball or his ability to harass and tackle the opposition rebounders

.

[Sedat]

I think we have lacked the speed to really pressure opponents inside 50 but the intent has been there. Granted, Hill was not good at all in that area previously so see how he shapes up this season.
I disagree. Guys like Murph, Gia, Higgins, Hill, Johnno and Aker are playmakers - defensive intensity doesn't come naturally to any of this group and they have comprised the majority of our forward line group in recent seasons. It came naturally to Hahn but his body was too shot to be able to repeat the effort and get from one contest to the next.

It definitely comes naturally to Grant and Jones, which augers well for the future. Comes naturally to Hall as well, although he is now feeling the pinch at his age (similarly to Hahn) and can't sustain this pressure as well as he could at the Swans.

[Ghost Dog]

I disagree. Guys like Murph, Gia, Higgins, Hill, Johnno and Aker are playmakers - defensive intensity doesn't come naturally to any of this group and they have comprised the majority of our forward line group in recent seasons. It came naturally to Hahn but his body was too shot to be able to repeat the effort and get from one contest to the next.

It definitely comes naturally to Grant and Jones, which augers well for the future. Comes naturally to Hall as well, although he is now feeling the pinch at his age (similarly to Hahn) and can't sustain this pressure as well as he could at the Swans.

Well, Higgins couldn't have last year if he had wanted to with dodgy thyroids. ( His chase hasn't been bad this season but could improve if he didn't fall over as much. ) Neither could Johnno, just too slow at that stage. Aker didn't too badly I thought but was slow at that stage. Murph has dodgy knees and putting him at Half back was a way of re-inventing him to stave off issues relating to that.

Of those mentioned I couldn't find any excuses for Hill and Gia. Hill looks better this season in that area and Gia....dare I comment?

[Before I Die]

Yes, it's a very good question about what to do with Picken now that is role within the team has been effectively removed by a rule change.

It does seem that we are trying to structure the team without at least two tagging/ shutdown players , once Picken named himself as our hard tag but he's now relegated to the bench . The Sub rule I think has effectively cut out the tagging/ shutdown role , the role now is a Midfield Grinder , Libba quite quickly defined how that role works , grind your opponent down by working harder for the ball and spreading it quickly to the running midfielders . Picken has now been forced to reinvent his role within the side , in reality he is almost a clone of Brad Johnson , same size and shape , quick over 30m , if he was switched to FP he would have to prove how good he is at leading for the ball and overhead marking , I would have no problem with his hardness at the ball or his ability to harass and tackle the opposition rebounders
.

If anything, the sub rule should help the task of the tagger, forcing the elite players to stay on the field longer and testing their endurance. Collingwood's swarm doesn't include a tagging role because all opposition players are placed under pressure at all times and because the would be tagger is rquired to play fulfil their role in the swarm.