Game Day 2011 - R5 Western Bulldogs vs Fremantle

[GVGjr]

Only the Bulldogs can dishearten, enthrall, then destroy their fan base in the space of 20 minutes.

Are we really the only side that can do that?

[AndrewP6]

I guess that is fair enough, but that was a really good game against very good opposition.

I feel better about the season now than I did before the bounce...

Really? About our inability to ice games, or convert opportunities, or execute basic skills?

[Prince Imperial]

At least Higgo and Grant lifted in that last quarter. Four good goals to Sherman.

Stack did stufff up at the end but was good for most of the night. Murphy and Cooney failed to execute under pressure.

Minson will replace Roughead next week.

[KT31]

Did not spot Lake in the last few minutes .
Was this a coaching error or injury ?

[LostDoggy]

True enough but we were never in the Essendon game. We needed this one especially with the Pies next week.

Feel the same.
Can't see getting a win against Collingwood. Needed the 4 pts today.

[Ghost Dog]

Plan...forward line??

[angelopetraglia]

Gutted. Do all the hard work to get back from the impossible. 20 down, 12 min to play and they had kicked the last 4.

Gutsy as to come back and get 7 points up. We should have killed the game. We missed shots and did not take our chances. Had the momentum and the ball in our forward line with 3 min to play. Can't believe the stuff up with stack at CHF that gifted them that goal.

Would have been a remarkable win, but now a devastating loss.

2-2 with the Pies next week.

[GVGjr]

I guess that is fair enough, but that was a really good game against very good opposition.

I feel better about the season now than I did before the bounce...

I tend to agree but it will be a mountain to climb if we get well beaten next week.

[AndrewP6]

Feel the same.
Can't see getting a win against Collingwood. Needed the 4 pts today.

I can't see us getting within ten goals of them.

[ReLoad]

WTF. simply WTF.

Possession footy anyone? helllooooooooooooooo.

Well there sure as hell will be some changes this week.

[EasternWest]

I guess that is fair enough, but that was a really good game against very good opposition.

I feel better about the season now than I did before the bounce...

Very hard to make a judgement on our skill level given the obvious humidity there. Showed a bit in the end, and I guess that's important.

Can't help but think if we'd had a bit more intensity earlier we could have won by a few goals, but Freo over there is a tough ask.

I'm not satisfied with the loss, in any way, but at least we had a bit of ticker. Some questions still need answering though.

[Dry Rot]

Gutted. Do all the hard work to get back from the impossible. 20 down, 12 min to play and they had kicked the last 4.

Gutsy as to come back and get 7 points up. We should have killed the game. We missed shots and did not take our chances. Had the momentum and the ball in our forward line with 3 min to play. Can't believe the stuff up with stack at CHF that gifted them that goal.

Would have been a remarkable win, but now a devastating loss.

2-2 with the Pies next week.


Maybe that's why we only make prelim finals.

Need to win games like this IMO.

[AndrewP6]

Maybe that's why we only make prelim finals.

Need to win games like this IMO.

Absolutely.

[Rocco Jones]

I guess that is fair enough, but that was a really good game against very good opposition.

I feel better about the season now than I did before the bounce...

I really am sick of that line. Sorry, I really do respect you and get where you are coming from but I am well and truly over the 'we just lost to quality opposition' thing.

People have a go at us for playing poorly in big games. Overall we don't but as we did tonight, it's that final 5% that just lets done the great efforts of the other 95% of the game.

We do the wonderful work to get us into positions to win against quality and then crumble.

[Sedat]

I guess that is fair enough, but that was a really good game against very good opposition.

I feel better about the season now than I did before the bounce...
Same to be honest. Absolutely shattered that we didn't get the points but Subi is a tough road trip and we handled the zone press game style tonight better than we've ever had. Hate the loss but like how we played against the zone. We'll win more than we lose if we bring that sort of intensity and structure to the table. Giving up a 7 point lead in time-on hurts like hell.

[G-Mo77]

Nah, not taking this one at all. I've been glass half full all season but this has pushed me over. This was a terrible loss. Freo couldn't have played any worse in this game and we still found a way to lose this game when we should have blown them out early.

Terrible loss! I'm finding it hard to take positives out of this at this stage apart from the 20 point hole they clawed out of.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I guess that is fair enough, but that was a really good game against very good opposition.

I feel better about the season now than I did before the bounce...

Not having been involved in a football team before, I don't know how a team losing a game like this, being up by 7 with under 5 minutes to go, will feel? Is this likely to make them feel more confident or less confident?

[The Pie Man]

I tend to agree but it will be a mountain to climb if we get well beaten next week.

This was my fear looking ahead to this game - sure it was an enthralling last quarter, but that doesn't help our ladder position moving forward.

Despite showing some heart, I'm VERY pessimistic about 2011

And seriously Cooney, WTF? :mad:

[LostDoggy]

Gee, I think I'm going to hate the bye (especially this early in the season). No excuse, but it makes you wonder, doesn't it?

[LostDoggy]

It would be nice if Cooney was able to slot that goal! Wasn't a very difficult shot. He hasn't done much this year to be honest. Has he put 4 quarters together this year yet?

What was with some of our players decision making? It was horrid all night. We also had terrible skills.

[The Pie Man]

Gee, I think I'm going to hate the bye (especially this early in the season). No excuse, but it makes you wonder, doesn't it?

It does - though what it really makes me think is why so many teams win prelims after having the week off following a QF win?

Struggling after the bye doesn't make sense...unless it's byes early in the season perhaps.

[angelopetraglia]

Maybe that's why we only make prelim finals.

Need to win games like this IMO.

Agree. We have a way of losing from positions no one should lose from. e.g. St Kilda game last year.

[KT31]

WTF. simply WTF.

Possession footy anyone? helllooooooooooooooo.

Well there sure as hell will be some changes this week.

With who ?
have to have the depth and form to warrent a game.
A lot said we would be thumped and we should have had a victory except for sloppy skills.

[Rocco Jones]

Same to be honest. Absolutely shattered that we didn't get the points but Subi is a tough road trip and we handled the zone press game style tonight better than we've ever had. Hate the loss but like how we played against the zone. We'll win more than we lose if we bring that sort of intensity and structure to the table. Giving up a 7 point lead in time-on hurts like hell.

I really get the sentiments behind what you and mjp are saying but does it mean we are any different to the last few years? Awesome footy for 95% then turn into Richie 'The Baumer' Tennebaum when it there to be won.

[AndrewP6]

Not having been involved in a football team before, I don't know how a team losing a game like this, being up by 7 with under 5 minutes to go, will feel? Is this likely to make them feel more confident or less confident?

I've played in plenty of teams (not footy, of course :) ) and for mine, this sort of loss would be a real dent in the confidence. If we were underwhelming underdogs, I'd be as pleased as you could get with a loss, but we should've won that.

[bornadog]

Boyd with 45 possessions is unbelievable really but gee he butchers some doesn't he.

We really lost the game at the start of the 4th quarter when we let them kick three easy ones, but to the boys credit they fought back. Higgins did well in the last quarter and Grant was also a little better. Williams off, hurt our structure and not sure where Brian Lake was in the last quarter other than seeing him briefly in the forward line.

Roughead has a long way to go and I would seriously consider Minson for next week.

[Dry Rot]

Agree. We have a way of losing from positions no one should lose from. e.g. St Kilda game last year.

We won't win a flag until we can overcome this.

[the banker]

Effort was exceptional but I think there are serious issues with some of the players.What is wrong with Cooney. He looks distracted and has lost the sharpness. Is it just fitness? Stack mistake was the game in the end. Minson must come in for Roughead next week. Brian needs to work into condition/form.

Some great efforts: Morris, Ward, Picken, Griff, Boyd, Sherman, Cross.

The draw has seriously been against us : 16 day break then a 6 day break following the graveyard flight back from Perth. Just seems we can't get a normal run at things.

[w3design]

I guess that is fair enough, but that was a really good game against very good opposition.

I feel better about the season now than I did before the bounce...
Me too.

[LostDoggy]

It would be nice if Cooney was able to slot that goal! Wasn't a very difficult shot. He hasn't done much this year to be honest. Has he put 4 quarters together this year yet?

He missed a few easy goals .:mad: Griff is miles ahead of him at the moment. Cooney
doesn't look 100% fit anyway and is playing with no confidence.

[Ghost Dog]

I only listened to the Radio, but in general, seems the intent was there but the skills were not owing to the pressure applied by the Dockers.

Sounded like Boyd tried his heart out.
The Cooney miss from straight out was unbelievable.
Just saw the vision on the highlights (afl.com.au)

[Dry Rot]

On a positive note, was Sherman the good news tonight?

Also Wallis did kind of OK on debut.

[LostDoggy]

It does - though what it really makes me think is why so many teams win prelims after having the week off following a QF win?


Because they are usually the better side to be in that position in the first place.

[w3design]

Was Brian on in the last few minutes? He went forward, then I saw him head for the bench. Did not see him again.

[LostDoggy]

He missed a few easy goals .:mad: Griff is miles ahead of him at the moment. Cooney
doesn't look 100% fit anyway and is playing with no confidence.

I'm sick of everyone making excuses for him! If he's not fit then why play him? Either he is fit or he isn't. He hasn't done anything for us.

I really wonder if he will ever get to his Brownlow season form?

Boyd, Ward, Picken, Morris, Markovic, Sherman and Libba were the only real standouts for mine.

[angelopetraglia]

Barry Hall had an absolute shocker. Could not mark anything. Kicking for goal was deplorable. No defensive pressure. 12 Super Coach points says it all.

[G-Mo77]

What is wrong with Cooney. He looks distracted and has lost the sharpness. Is it just fitness?


I'm getting tired of the ol' injury/lack of fitness excuse. Cooney just doesn't have that killer instinct! How this guy escapes the wrath of the most brutal supporters is beyond me.

[Hotdog60]

There was no smart footy, poor skills and a lack of run.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Boyd with 45 possessions is unbelievable really but gee he butchers some doesn't he.

We really lost the game at the start of the 4th quarter when we let them kick three easy ones, but to the boys credit they fought back. Higgins did well in the last quarter and Grant was also a little better. Williams off, hurt our structure and not sure where Brian Lake was in the last quarter other than seeing him briefly in the forward line.

Roughead has a long way to go and I would seriously consider Minson for next week.

I am so over, his and Cross's blind panic kick, often without even having a look up field. Even on the TV, as soon as you see it go off the boot, you know an opposition player is going to be camped under it. I know it's a pressure situation, but so often the rebound that occurs results in a goal. I'd much rather them try and take a split second longer to look for someone short outisde, and risk them getting caught with the ball than what occurs now.

45 possies, but really as the captain, he has to set the tone, and his lack of precision at key times by foot was not the kind of example to set for the rest of the team.

[The Pie Man]

Because they are usually the better side to be in that position in the first place.

Yep - so good teams will win after the bye

[EasternWest]

On a positive note, was Sherman the good news tonight?

Also Wallis did kind of OK on debut.

3 touches, 3 sharp handballs. Plus applied himself defensively, in a high pressure last quarter. Did ok, and will be better for it.

[LostDoggy]

We have major problems with our defensive pressure when inside our forward 50. We don't hold it in long enough and force enough stoppages. Teams get it out so easily against us. Why is this happening?

[bornadog]

Was Brian on in the last few minutes? He went forward, then I saw him head for the bench. Did not see him again.

Come to think of it he landed awkwardly in that contest where I think Grant ran into an open goal.

[LostDoggy]

not going to say it on BF because i may get banned, but i people need to ease up on Stack. I used to really hate him, and i was shattered when he got picked, but other than the one handball he was very good today, clearly his best game and he's got a lot of potential of half back. We've got to remember Harbow gave away a lot of HtBs and made a lot of errors in his early days down back as well.
Either way, can't wait till Easton Wood is back

[jazzadogs]

I'm with mjp. The pressure and intensity, and the way we attempted to work around the press, was definitely pleasing. Both teams struggled with the greasy ball, and ultimately it was the team that made fewer errors that came away with it.

Still plenty to work on, but that has shown that we can match it against the good sides (although having been at the G today, I can see the Pies destroying us).

We might not have won, but that was a hell of a lot better than the game against the Bombers.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Because they are usually the better side to be in that position in the first place.

Also they've had all season to get match hardened.
I think a bye late in the season is going to be less of a problem than in the first 2 months of the season.

[Sedat]

I really get the sentiments behind what you and mjp are saying but does it mean we are any different to the last few years? Awesome footy for 95% then turn into Richie 'The Baumer' Tennebaum when it there to be won.
I get your sentiments as well Rocco, and I really, really hate losing games when in a position to win them against quality opposition. I guess I'm torn between seeing genuine substance in handling the zone press against a good team and taking the short term pain of losing the match.

[Dry Rot]

3 touches, 3 sharp handballs. Plus applied himself defensively, in a high pressure last quarter. Did ok, and will be better for it.

Agreed. To his credit, got over our shocking start to Q4 and did some nice things.

[KT31]

We have major problems with our defensive pressure when inside our forward 50. We don't hold it in long enough and force enough stoppages. Teams get it out so easily against us. Why is this happening?

Ok, where was the best defender in the cpmpetition in the last 10 minutes ?

[G-Mo77]

3 touches, 3 sharp handballs. Plus applied himself defensively, in a high pressure last quarter. Did ok, and will be better for it.

Poor use of the sub again on our behalf. 1 out of 4 games so far. Get it right FFS!

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

We have major problems with our defensive pressure when inside our forward 50. We don't hold it in long enough and force enough stoppages. Teams get it out so easily against us. Why is this happening?

As the Commentators pointed out, we don't employ as high a defensive forward zone as other teams that are good at this do.
There must be a reason for it, whether Eade is concerned that we don't have the ability to do it well, and might get exploited by pushing too high up I don't know, but we are setting up much differently in this regard than many other teams.

[ReLoad]

We have major problems with our defensive pressure when inside our forward 50. We don't hold it in long enough and force enough stoppages. Teams get it out so easily against us. Why is this happening?

Becasue Grant is the ultimate in lazy, he lives next door to a pizza parlour and gets home delivery.

[GVGjr]

I'm getting tired of the ol' injury/lack of fitness excuse. Cooney just doesn't have that killer instinct! How this guy escapes the wrath of the most brutal supporters is beyond me.

He's hugely popular with the supporters who often can't find fault with him. At times I think I was the lone hand on the forum that didn't want him as the captain.

[G-Mo77]

I really get the sentiments behind what you and mjp are saying but does it mean we are any different to the last few years? Awesome footy for 95% then turn into Richie 'The Baumer' Tennebaum when it there to be won.

Ha ha. Love it! I haven't smiled all evening until I read that,

Thanks. :)

[SonofScray]

Just frustrating to watch, we let them off the hook in the 2nd quarter and failed to lock the ball up when it counted. Our player most likely and deserving of the 'match winner' tag in Cooney let us down, to the point where I am not convinced I should be expecting him to nail those big goals anymore.

We carried far too many players, some who put in here and there (eg Grant), others who were let down by the game plan (eg Hall) and a few that just flat out struggled (eg Roughie). While the overall effort and intensity was acceptable for large parts of the game you need a better buy in from all your players. It felt like it took a ferocious Picken attack on the ball to wake the rest up.

Sherman stepped right up, a great performance from him really. Put what we need from him on show.

Grant could be in the mix for a rest, his efforts at times were very poor. He looks like he is down and out a bit and hasn't been able to get involved at the level I think we'd have expected from him this season. To his credit though, when the game was in the balance and needed someone to get hands on the ball and get the goal, he did it. That's a quality we're really lacking in so maybe he gets a reprieve.

Higgins in the 4th quarter showed me what he is capable of, really turned around a poor first three quarters with some great work. Missed one of his set shots but he had an assist, a good goal and was right in the thick of it, sure of hand and foot when it counted. I am a harsh marker on the kid but if he can bring that increasingly into games then he will get the pats on the back.

Minson has to get a go. Roughhead gave us very little, looked lost and frustrated.

We're really staring down the barrel of a horror start to the year now with the prospect of a flogging next week looming fairly large.I'm mostly happy that we actually got up and running close to our best intensity, if not skill, for parts of tonight but the same old issues tend to pop up don't they. No real match winners, poor consistency over four quarters, sloppy delivery into the forward line etc etc.

[EasternWest]

Poor use of the sub again on our behalf. 1 out of 4 games so far. Get it right FFS!

TBH, Wallis as sub puzzled me a bit from the get go. Surely he would have been better coming off the bench at the start?

Not saying I know who should have been sub, but I don't think Mitch should have been.

[LostDoggy]

Becasue Grant is the ultimate in lazy, he lives next door to a pizza parlour and gets home delivery.

Wasn't always though. Last year he had a lot of great chases. He fell off far to many of the tackles at the end, but atleast he tried and ran. Now it looks like he has just cut out the middle step

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Poor use of the sub again on our behalf. 1 out of 4 games so far. Get it right FFS!

Do you mean as in the player chosen, or the timing of use?
If the latter, I don't think it was by choice. Williams was grabbing at the back of his leg late in the 3rd, and that was why he was subbed off.

[bornadog]

Also they've had all season to get match hardened.
I think a bye late in the season is going to be less of a problem than in the first 2 months of the season.

Our next bye is around round 20 so will be handy, but this bye was timed so badly, 16 days is just ridiculous by the AFL.

[w3design]

One memory that hurts is the ease with which they cleared it when we kicked points in last quarter. How did that happen? In contrast, murf seemed to have no options, and certainly no coherent plan, when he kicked out, leading to his mistake.

And a distinct, horrible memory in last frantic minute of seeing wallis left in goal square with sandilands. Aaarrrgghhhhhhh!

[G-Mo77]

Do you mean as in the player chosen, or the timing of use?
If the latter, I don't think it was by choice. Williams was grabbing at the back of his leg late in the 3rd, and that was why he was subbed off.

Player chosen. A first gamer waiting 3 quarters to get his first chance of AFL football. Great choice guys. :rolleyes:

[jazzadogs]

I only listened to the Radio, but in general, seems the intent was there but the skills were not owing to the pressure applied by the Dockers.

Sounded like Boyd tried his heart out.
The Cooney miss from straight out was unbelievable.
Just saw the vision on the highlights (afl.com.au)
I would say skills were down more to the greasy ball than due to the pressure. Their pressure was good, but I would say ours was much better.

As for Boyd, he did a few good things but he still tries to do too much. 45 touches at 60% efficiency is still 27 effective touches, but those extra 18 could have been better utilised by our 'better' ball users.

[Dry Rot]

Poor use of the sub again on our behalf. 1 out of 4 games so far. Get it right FFS!

Yeah,agree with that. Need some imagination here.

[AndrewP6]

but other than the one handball he was very good today, clearly his best game and he's got a lot of potential of half back.


I wouldn't have said very good. Thought he was just OK.


Either way, can't wait till Easton Wood is back

Me too. Lucky for Stack he's got a while.

[Rocco Jones]

I get your sentiments as well Rocco, and I really, really hate losing games when in a position to win them against quality opposition. I guess I'm torn between seeing genuine substance in handling the zone press against a good team and taking the short term pain of losing the match.

If we were a marathon runner we would be the best in the world over 41km.

It's so hard to dissect these games. I am neither with the people who just hammer us and say we don't turn up to big games nor the ones who rate the overall performance so highly.

To say we don't turn up just dismisses the vast majority of big games where are in the game/in a winning position for pretty much the whole game. However, how long can we keep on rating these performances so highly when we just crumble when it's there to be won?

These performances reek of what we are. Prelim finalists. That might sound like I am having a go, I'm not. Coming 3rd or 4th is ridiculously underrated. In other sports it would meet lofty rewards such as qualifications for Champions League or divisional championships but here it gets you nothing and that's reflected in the respect it gets you. Our performances in these big games prove what we are. Better than 75% of the comp, compete very well with the best but just cannot beat them.

I am actually with you and mjp in rating us higher than I did before the game. I thought we were in a log jam talent wise and could be in the latter half of the eight but I rate us as a top 4 side. I just don't see us being more than that.

[jazzadogs]

Player chosen. A first gamer waiting 3 quarters to get his first chance of AFL football. Great choice guys. :rolleyes:
Yep. Especially to chuck him straight in the centre circle, matched up against Mundy.

Should have been given three quarters to play himself in, then subbed out if anything. Would have been fierce at the start of the match, but not as much as it would have been at the start of the last quarter with scores level!

[angelopetraglia]

Why start Wallis in the guts when the game is on the line at the start of the last quarter?

They had two easy clearances for two easy goals. They score two goals in 90 seconds after scoring one lucky goal in the entire third term. Very strange decision.

Why not go with your guns in the centre at such a critical time?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Yeah,agree with that. Need some imagination here.

So who was the obvious choice for sub? Djerkerra maybe?

[AndrewP6]

These performances reek of what we are. Prelim finalists.

Better than 75% of the comp, compete very well with the best but just cannot beat them.

Unfortunately I agree.

[LostDoggy]

With a loss next week (which to be honest, i don't have high hopes for) we could be in a lot of trouble.
8 points after Round 6 and we'll below Richmond. (assuming they can beat Brissy down here) Season's not over yet, but it will be a massive struggle to make the 4.
I know it's only one game, but i'm starting to lose confidence that this group really can win a flag. Theres just something not right there

[LostDoggy]

Me too. Lucky for Stack he's got a while.

Was Stack poor?

[angelopetraglia]

I would say skills were down more to the greasy ball than due to the pressure. Their pressure was good, but I would say ours was much better.

As for Boyd, he did a few good things but he still tries to do too much. 45 touches at 60% efficiency is still 27 effective touches, but those extra 18 could have been better utilised by our 'better' ball users.

The problem is they don't work harder enough to get the pill often enough. Cooney 22 touches, Griffen 23 touches. Boyd doesn't have their talent but has a heart the size of Phar Lap.

Boyd tonight.

45 touches.
24 contested possessions.
12 clearances.
7 tackles.

A captains game.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Was Stack poor?

Up until he committed a howler of an error by hand late in the game that ended up with a Freo goal, he had played quite a decent game.

[FrediKanoute]

45 touches is awesome. Problem is how many of the 45 actually hurt the divide?

[LostDoggy]

Ok, where was the best defender in the cpmpetition in the last 10 minutes ?

I don't understand what that has to do with my point?

[Dry Rot]

So who was the obvious choice for sub? Djerkerra maybe?

Good question, but I'm not across Willi form. It just seems that some other teams are using the sub better and more imaginatively that us.

Maybe the thoughts of super-NRL coach Wayne Bennett are relevant?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Not sure how anyone can put a positive spin on tonight.

The same thing happened: we got challenged by a good side, we put ourselves in a winning position, and then FOUND a way to blow it.

As always, our best players DON'T step up when we need them to. Cooney is the biggest culprit of all.

Grant had a poor game, but at least the kid took responsibility for his actions and nailed a pressure goal.

I'm sick of the same results in the same situations.

[SonofScray]

Up until he committed a howler of an error by hand late in the game that ended up with a Freo goal, he had played quite a decent game.

Agree. Hudson made a similar error in the defensive 50 late as well.

Stack's game was OK, spoiled by an absolute howler late. A real basic error, do not give up possession in the corridor.

[jazzadogs]

The problem is they don't work harder enough to get the pill often enough. Cooney 22 touches, Griffen 23 touches. Boyd doesn't have their talent but has a heart the size of Phar Lap.


I was going to add something at the end about the fact he would probably would give it to these 'better' users, if they were in a good position when he was ready to give it off.

I guess that's the question. A lot of us have a go at Boyd for trying to do too much, but is the problem just that Griff, Cooney, Higgins aren't doing enough?

[Dry Rot]

Up until he committed a howler of an error by hand late in the game that ended up with a Freo goal, he had played quite a decent game.

Agreed, aside from a howler he went OK. Reminds of the old Greek goat shepherd joke re reputation.

[G-Mo77]

Yep. Especially to chuck him straight in the centre circle, matched up against Mundy.

Should have been given three quarters to play himself in, then subbed out if anything. Would have been fierce at the start of the match, but not as much as it would have been at the start of the last quarter with scores level!

Addison would have been a much better choice if this is the role they had planned for Mitch. I really feel sorry for the kid after the way he was handled tonight.

[angelopetraglia]

45 touches is awesome. Problem is how many of the 45 actually hurt the divide?

24 contested possessions. 12 clearances. He gets it on inside where the pressure and heat are immense. He was everywhere. Gets a lot of ball to the outside runners. Winning the inside footy is such an important part of the game. He is not the reason we lost.

[Dry Rot]

As always, our best players DON'T step up when we need them to.

Agreed. At best we are lazy but realistically we are mentally weak and this explains seasons 2008, 2009 and 2010.

looks like we'll be spared the anguish of another PF loss year.

[comrade]

I am actually with you and mjp in rating us higher than I did before the game. I thought we were in a log jam talent wise and could be in the latter half of the eight but I rate us as a top 4 side. I just don't see us being more than that.

Then what do we have to do to take us to the next level?

[Dry Rot]

Then what do we have to do to take us to the next level?

A number of heart transplants.

[comrade]

A number of heart transplants.

Be constructive.

[Rocco Jones]

Agreed. At best we are lazy but realistically we are mentally weak and this explains seasons 2008, 2009 and 2010.

looks like we'll be spared the anguish of another PF loss year.

Definitely don't agree with the lazy call but do somewhat with the mentally weak. Some sides can be so mentally weak that they cannot simply compete with the gun sides, we are different. We definitely can compete and do it very well. We just crumble when the win is in sight.

Tonight made me more confident that we are a top 4 side but probably a little less belief that we win the flag (which is very minimal anyway).

[GVGjr]

Agreed. At best we are lazy but realistically we are mentally weak and this explains seasons 2008, 2009 and 2010.

looks like we'll be spared the anguish of another PF loss year.

I can't agree as this is nothing more than an embarrassingly inaccurate critique.

I just can't be bothered going over this again with you.

[ReLoad]

The fact wasnt that our players didnt have heart, they came back and fought as hard as I have ever seen from them before. It was that we were not smart, and we did not capitalise on our opportunities.

Things we should have done differently: Lake going forward was the right thing to do, but after we were in front stick him back again. We needed him down there to stabilise.
We should have played some uncontested footy, drop guys back and play kick to kick, control the tempo. Nick Maxwell at Collingcrap would have commanded and directed this, likewise the coaching staff should have orchestrated this.

Needless to say, we got in a winning position, we worked hard enough to get there, its just taking control of that situation and finishign it off.
That game will have Freo in an amazing frame of mind, whereas we're going to get smacked around now and be pushign it uphill.

We also have some seriously sore bodies and underdone players, I have a feeling this is going to get ugly.

[Rocco Jones]

A number of heart transplants.

Ridiculous call. I am extremely frustrated believe me but one of us knows very little about footy if you thought that performance lacked 'heart'. I actually think we care 'too much' if that could even begin to make sense. We work so bloody hard in these big games but the monkey keeps on getting bigger and our guys know it. No surprise that it's the senior guys who struggle most with it.


Then what do we have to do to take us to the next level?

I'm not sure but a few things could help.

Win a huge game by 'accident'. For example Freo just wasting all the opportunities we handled to them during our meltdown. Just winning a huge game, even if it's despite a meltdown, would be huge with our confidence.

New guys who haven't really been a part of the meltdowns coming into the side. This is not to say they should just be handed a game of course and inexperience brings it's own issues in big moments too obviously but just seems like there are a lot of our guys with that ape on their back.

[Dry Rot]

Be constructive.

I'm being accurate.

IIRC in late 2000 we took on a hot Carlton side before Kouta did his knee. We were way under strength and beat the bastards. A few weeks later, we beat the "unbeatable" Bombers side.

And then in in 2002 with club in chaos we had that memorable draw against the Bombers and then IIRC last round beat the worthy 2002 grand finalists the Pies.

Victories won with heart against better opponents.

When did we last do this this against similar teams/similar odds in 2008 - 2011?

[The Pie Man]

Then what do we have to do to take us to the next level?

If it's about executing in the moment as Eade has mentioned during the week, it was a bit of 1 step forward, 2 steps back tonight. Coming back from 20 down was impressive, but Freo were pretty bad in partly allowing that..and then we can't close it out despite having possesion in the forward 50 wih 3 mins left and being a goal up.

The team's been built - we can perform better than tonight, though is there a new level they can get to that we haven't previously seen?

[comrade]

New guys who haven't really been a part of the meltdowns coming into the side. This is not to say they should just be handed a game of course and inexperience brings it's own issues in big moments too obviously but just seems like there are a lot of our guys with that ape on their back.

The side is already undergoing a transition with players like Jones, Roughead, Liberatore, Wallis, Ward (if he stays), Grant all playing roles. Say if we get half way through the year and it's looking likely we're just going to be making up the numbers, do we turbo charge the transition and get games into Howard, Cordy, Dahlhaus, Schofield etc?

I know dreamers play kids but I'm dreaming of a premiership and despite how fantastic the guys drafted in 1999-2001 have been, it's looking more and more like they're not going to be the ones to break our drought.

[The Pie Man]

The side is already undergoing a transition with players like Jones, Roughead, Liberatore, Wallis, Ward (if he stays), Grant all playing roles. Say if we get half way through the year and it's looking likely we're just going to be making up the numbers, do we turbo charge the transition and get games into Howard, Cordy, Dahlhaus, Schofield etc?

I know dreamers play kids but I'm dreaming of a premiership and despite how fantastic the guys drafted in 1999-2001 have been, it's looking more and more like they're not going to be the ones to break our drought.

I'm going to give it until after the Sydney game to make this call to myself - I agree with your comment

[Dry Rot]

Ridiculous call. I am extremely frustrated believe me but one of us knows very little about footy if you thought that performance lacked 'heart'. I actually think we care 'too much' if that could even begin to make sense. We work so bloody hard in these big games but the monkey keeps on getting bigger and our guys know it. No surprise that it's the senior guys who struggle most with it.



See post above. If not heart, then what is it? Between the ears?

We used to win some of these pressure games, now we don't. Simple fact.

I can also recall that game v North when their vice captain returned after his head was almost sliced off. Absolute pressure to the end, with that clearance from the centre to Croft and Carey.

We used to win our fair share of these high pressure/against the odds games, but now we don't.

Why?

[comrade]

See post above. If not heart, then what is it? Between the ears?

We used to win some of these pressure games, now we don't. Simple fact.

I can also recall that game v North when their vice captain returned after his head was almost sliced off. Absolute pressure to the end, with that clearance from the centre to Croft and Carey.

We used to win our fair share of these games, but now we don't.

Why?

Most of the blokes playing in those games have been key players in our last 3 tilts. So, they had heart then, but they don't now?

The fact is, WE HAVEN'T BEEN GOOD ENOUGH for the past 3 years. In the 3 prelims we went in as underdogs because the opposition were better than us. Bookies love punters who bet on the underdog because statistically they just don't win that often.

The fact you had to pick out a mere 3 or 4 games from the past decade to demonstrate some intangible concept called HEART is proof that it's bollocks.

What about the comeback win against Sydney in last year's semi? What about our against the odds win against Adelaide in the wet?

[Rocco Jones]

See post above. If not heart, then what is it? Between the ears?


If you have read any of my numerous post game posts you would know I think it's the part in bold.

I think mental fragility and 'heart' are very different things. As bloody annoying as it is, I guess I find mental fragility less intolerable than lacking heart. Our guys work hard and are desperate to win, they just mentally implode when the oh so huge win is ours for the taking.

[Dry Rot]

If you have read any of my numerous post game posts you would know I think it's the part in bold.

I think mental fragility and 'heart' are very different things. As bloody annoying as it is, I guess I find mental fragility less intolerable than lacking heart. Our guys work hard and are desperate to win, they just mentally implode when the oh so huge win is ours for the taking.

I suppose I reckon when the heat's on, there's not not much difference between "heart" and "mentally tough/weak", so maybe we're on the same page.

[LostDoggy]

It took a lot of heart to come back from 20 points down.

Sherman was great as was Hudson, Picken and Ward.

Stack played pretty well, lots of spoils and some accurate disposal but then may have lost us the game.

It was better than the Essendon game but I am filthy that we couldn't hang on with a few minutes to go. We should be able to make it impossible to get out of our forward fifty.

Ugly game for 3 qtrs.

[lemmon]

Higgins is probably the most frustrating player I've seen, for god sake how can you put up that filth for three quarters only to show that undeniable talent in the last. Would make him the sub for next week as a pure and simple kick up the arse

[Dry Rot]

Most of the blokes playing in those games have been key players in our last 3 tilts. So, they had heart then, but they don't now?

The fact is, WE HAVEN'T BEEN GOOD ENOUGH for the past 3 years. In the 3 prelims we went in as underdogs because the opposition were better than us. Bookies love punters who bet on the underdog because statistically they just don't win that often.

The fact you had to pick out a mere 3 or 4 games from the past decade to demonstrate some intangible concept called HEART is proof that it's bollocks.

What about the comeback win against Sydney in last year's semi? What about our against the odds win against Adelaide in the wet?

There were other games too. I wouldn't compare the Swans and Crows games you cite in the same breath as the games I mentioned, and both were below us.

BTW, don't just look at the PFs, we were not giant killers in the season proper for 2008-2010 either. We were flat track bullies, with very few heroic wins.

[KT31]

The problem is they don't work harder enough to get the pill often enough. Cooney 22 touches, Griffen 23 touches. Boyd doesn't have their talent but has a heart the size of Phar Lap.

Boyd tonight.

45 touches.
24 contested possessions.
12 clearances.
7 tackles.

A captains game.

This by a dozen.

[comrade]

There were other games too. I wouldn't compare the Swans and Crows games you cite in the same breath as the games I mentioned, and both were below us.

The reason you highlight those wins is because they're so rare. We've been in the top echelon of the competition so we haven't gone in as underdogs very often.

As I said, most underdogs lose because the other team is better. This is what has happened to us the last 3 years. Nothing to do with heart.


BTW, don't just look at the PFs, we were not giant killers in the season proper for 2008-2010 either. We were flat track bullies, with very few heroic wins.

What are you talking about? We beat the eventual premiers in 2007, 2008 and 2009 during the H&A season.

[KT31]

Would someone like to answer this question for an interstate poster.
Where was Lake last 1/2 last quarter.
Injury or just not fit ?

[SonofScray]

I half agree with DR in the sense that we have had very few 'heroic' wins, last season as an example I don't recall really being lifted by a result or walking away knowing that I'd seen a real match winning, game breaking individual effort, or a memorable result. It was all very ho hum and clinical.

[Dry Rot]

What are you talking about? We beat the eventual premiers in 2007, 2008 and 2009 during the H&A season.

In the context of my earlier post, I trust you are taking the piss.

[SonofScray]

Would someone like to answere this question for an interstate poster.
Where was Lake last 1/2 last quarter.
Injury or just not fit ?

Have heard from other posters that he limped off late. Can't find anything to confirm that though. He was up forward with about 8 minutes to go, thats the last I saw of him.

[KT31]

Have heard from other posters that he limped off late. Can't find anything to confirm that though. He was up forward with about 8 minutes to go, thats the last I saw of him.

Hope it is not serious and just poor coaching decision.

[bresker]

I don't think coming from 20 points down was anything to write home about, because they should never have been 20 points ahead in the first place.

In most of the 3rd quarter we smashed them & forced them right back. Yet we couldn't buy a goal.

Our forward structure is poor. Nevermind B. Lake up there late in the game. Murph would have been better, earlier on.

We are a great team but if we can't get the scores on the board we look like bloody fools.

[KT31]

I don't think coming from 20 points down was anything to write home about, because they should never have been 20 points ahead in the first place.

In most of the 3rd quarter we smashed them & forced them right back. Yet we couldn't buy a goal.

Our forward structure is poor. Nevermind B. Lake up there late in the game. Murph would have been better, earlier on.

We are a great team but if we can't get the scores on the board we look like bloody fools.

Not sure if this was a coaching disision or Eades.
Whoever it was it was a monumental @#$% up.

[FrediKanoute]

24 contested possessions. 12 clearances. He gets it on inside where the pressure and heat are immense. He was everywhere. Gets a lot of ball to the outside runners. Winning the inside footy is such an important part of the game. He is not the reason we lost.

Not saying he is the reason we lost. We lost for a whole host of other reasons, most notably a dysfunctional forward set up who desppite having most of the possession in the 3rd quarter failing to capiatlise. My issue with Boyd is pretty simple. So often he would get the ball and just kick in hope. Its one thing getting 45 possessions it another using then effectively!

[chef]

I guess that is fair enough, but that was a really good game against very good opposition.

I feel better about the season now than I did before the bounce...

Same here.

[chef]

Was Stack poor?

Hell no, it's just being a whipping boy people focus more on his mistakes than anyone else.

[the banker]

Why start Wallis in the guts when the game is on the line at the start of the last quarter?

They had two easy clearances for two easy goals. They score two goals in 90 seconds after scoring one lucky goal in the entire third term. Very strange decision.

Why not go with your guns in the centre at such a critical time?

And why wasn't Lake down back once we go 7 points up in time on?

[GVGjr]

I'm being accurate.

IIRC in late 2000 we took on a hot Carlton side before Kouta did his knee. We were way under strength and beat the bastards. A few weeks later, we beat the "unbeatable" Bombers side.

And then in in 2002 with club in chaos we had that memorable draw against the Bombers and then IIRC last round beat the worthy 2002 grand finalists the Pies.

Victories won with heart against better opponents.



We beat the unbeatable Bombers because Wallace had come up with a brilliant game plan not because we just rallied and won with the heart.

[Go_Dogs]

I agree with the few who say there are a few positives to come out of the game:

1) We only just lost to a strong side that's up and running in Perth and quite a few of our A Graders didn't have good nights. A couple in Cooney and Lake can possibly be put on lacking match fitness. Either way, I'd rather them at 100% in September, unlike last year. Yes we need to win enough games to make the 4, but we can still do that.

2) Sherman, whilst not a heap of the ball kicked a small bag and looks to be fitting in well - he'll get better as the year progresses and offers us something we were lacking last year.

3) Higgins is getting a lot of the ball, perhaps not still at the level we need but not far off at all - if he can keep getting 25-30 touches and start nailing all of his shots on goal he's very important.

4) It's a long season. Longer than normal even ;) so we've got time to fine tune, make adjustments and get it right. At this time last year 5 rounds in, Brisbane was 4-1, and Sydney was on top of the ladder. Most pundits were talking about a St Kilda v Geelong grand final and Collingwood were miles off being seen as a dominant force who'll win every premiership for the next 5 years. Hawthorn, who had only won 1 game at that stage made the 8.

[Go_Dogs]

That being said, any day Van Berlo and Bradley kick 4 each is not a proud day.

[LostDoggy]

OH dear, Williams back related hammy , Lake ankle, so a potential backline against Collingwood of Markovic at FB,Morris, Murphy, Stack and whoever else we have who is tall enough/ strong enough vs Cloke, Dawes, Brown, Jolly etc

Our midfield will have to improve it's effective disposals . Our forward line needs a restructure - we need more defensive pressure, leading for the ball, more crumbing for the ball . We must focus on running the ball into the Forward 50 then make a decision to either kick the goal or pass to a leading player - just bombing it in to a stationary pack does not work

How much pressure we can apply to Collingwood to restrict their ball movement will determine our place in the 8

.

[Ghost Dog]

Did anyone watch the Anzac game and get a bit of hope?
I thought Essendon were right in it. They are a bit of a smaller team like us, or slighter. If we bring that intensity last night into the game, I'll be pretty satisfied.

[mjp]

Really? About our inability to ice games, or convert opportunities, or execute basic skills?

No. About our ability to crack in at the contest, apply defensive pressure and continue working/fighting when the chips are down.

[G-Mo77]

Did anyone watch the Anzac game and get a bit of hope?
I thought Essendon were right in it. They are a bit of a smaller team like us, or slighter. If we bring that intensity last night into the game, I'll be pretty satisfied.

I did but they were squashed last night when they threw away another close game against quality opposition. I've simmered since last night but my outlook is still pretty bleak right now for next week and beyond.

[AndrewP6]

Did anyone watch the Anzac game and get a bit of hope?
I thought Essendon were right in it. They are a bit of a smaller team like us, or slighter. If we bring that intensity last night into the game, I'll be pretty satisfied.

Nope, I think we'll get thumped.

[AndrewP6]

No. About our ability to crack in at the contest, apply defensive pressure and continue working/fighting when the chips are down.

Fair enough, I think our deficiencies negate those things.

[mjp]

A number of heart transplants.

This is crap.

We played hard last night and I don't think we lost because of lack of effort. The past two games we had crushing wins and all anyone could talk about was the poor clearance work and lack of pressure...last night both of those things were excellent.

We came back from 20 points down early in the last quarter playing interstate in front of a very large (and loud) crowd...we didn't ice the game...OK - I get it. But pointing the finger at individuals or suggesting we need a heart transplant is simply wrong.

The things that cost us (yes, Stack's handball, Boyd's rushed kick out of the defensive stoppage) were errors of commission - players trying desperately to do things - rather than errors of ommission or mistakes made due to laziness or inaction.

[mjp]

Fair enough, I think our deficiencies negate those things.

But last week they WERE our deficiencies and what everyone wanted to see. It is all about winning - I get that - but sometimes the parts are greater than the whole. A gallant performance interstate - with a trip together at the end of it - has the potential to galvanise us. It was not the same side that played against Essendon last night.

[Ghost Dog]

This is crap.

We played hard last night and I don't think we lost because of lack of effort. The past two games we had crushing wins and all anyone could talk about was the poor clearance work and lack of pressure...last night both of those things were excellent.

We came back from 20 points down early in the last quarter playing interstate in front of a very large (and loud) crowd...we didn't ice the game...OK - I get it. But pointing the finger at individuals or suggesting we need a heart transplant is simply wrong.

The things that cost us (yes, Stack's handball, Boyd's rushed kick out of the defensive stoppage) were errors of commission - players trying desperately to do things - rather than errors of ommission or mistakes made due to laziness or inaction.

Nice

[Greystache]

Did anyone watch the Anzac game and get a bit of hope?
I thought Essendon were right in it. They are a bit of a smaller team like us, or slighter. If we bring that intensity last night into the game, I'll be pretty satisfied.

I went, I took no hope from it.

The team that crushed us were outclassed by the team we played next week.

Our game plan won't allow us to apply the pressure that Essendon were able to, and we won't handle the pressure Collingwood apply any better than Essendon did. I'm expecting a blowout.

[Hotdog60]

The simple problem was a failure to execute.
I think I heard that we have a 54% kicking efficiency, not good enough at this level if you want to win games. Most of the other things needed to win the game were there, if we can get back to the elite disposal from a couple of years back then we will be hot favorites and good enough to take out the big one.

[bornadog]

This is crap.

We played hard last night and I don't think we lost because of lack of effort. The past two games we had crushing wins and all anyone could talk about was the poor clearance work and lack of pressure...last night both of those things were excellent.

We came back from 20 points down early in the last quarter playing interstate in front of a very large (and loud) crowd...we didn't ice the game...OK - I get it. But pointing the finger at individuals or suggesting we need a heart transplant is simply wrong.

The things that cost us (yes, Stack's handball, Boyd's rushed kick out of the defensive stoppage) were errors of commission - players trying desperately to do things - rather than errors of ommission or mistakes made due to laziness or inaction.

I had another look at Stack's handball. Grant had the ball and tried to runaway from his opponent in the forward 50, but was about to be caught, so instead of kicking it he turned backwards and handballed to Stack who was under pressure. Stack was tackled so he handballed towards Libba, but unfortunately it was at his feet and Freo took possession.

This is just one incident in many during 120 minutes. At the end of the day we should have tried to hang on in the last few minutes but with both Lake and Williams off the ground our defence wasn't able to hang on.

[AndrewP6]

But last week they WERE our deficiencies and what everyone wanted to see. It is all about winning - I get that - but sometimes the parts are greater than the whole. A gallant performance interstate - with a trip together at the end of it - has the potential to galvanise us. It was not the same side that played against Essendon last night.

Well put, but I'm not sold. No, it wasn't the same side that played against Essendon, but it was the same one that can't put teams away when they should. A performance like that, but where we showed we can ice a game that we should have, would convince me more.

Nothing would please me more than to be proven wrong on this.

[Maddog37]

If we split the next two weeks we will be 3/3. Same as last two years isn't it?

Getting Shaggy and Wood back would allow us to play Murphy forward which would gave been ideal last night.

[bornadog]

If we split the next two weeks we will be 3/3. Same as last two years isn't it?

Getting Shaggy and Wood back would allow us to play Murphy forward which would gave been ideal last night.

We do have a tough run coming up. Like MJP I was pleased with the intensity last night as well as the never give up attitude, which was lacking last year.

After watching some of the Essendon match, I thought Collingwood looked vulnerable, particularly with the Essendon talls in their forward line. Essendon really lost because Hooker is not good enough to take on Cloke. Our skill level is going to have to be spot on against Collingwood.

[Ghost Dog]

We do have a tough run coming up. Like MJP I was pleased with the intensity last night as well as the never give up attitude, which was lacking last year.

After watching some of the Essendon match, I thought Collingwood looked vulnerable, particularly with the Essendon talls in their forward line. Essendon really lost because Hooker is not good enough to take on Cloke. Our skill level is going to have to be spot on against Collingwood.

Hall must be played with a crumber. It's madness otherwise.

[Ghost Dog]

Indeed! And even the commentators are calling him 'Shermanator' :rolleyes:

In the age, it says delivery to hall was just too high, allowing McPhee to punch it out at will.

[anfo27]

Indeed! And even the commentators are calling him 'Shermanator' :rolleyes:

In the age, it says delivery to hall was just too high, allowing McPhee to punch it out at will.

He played in the forward line

[LostDoggy]

I thought our intensity was up and we certainly flipped the ball around with speed, thus enabling a player to get free. But the freed up player would either bomb the ball forward or try to hit a leading target. A leading target needs to mark the ball out the front of his face in a contested situation. I saw Cloke do it against Essendon, but we seem unable to do it at all. We have the ball punched away from us or we drop it.

I am concerned about our leg speed and think we will struggle to contain the spread and run of teams like Collingwood and Essendon.

Add to this is our appalling execution where we make unforced errors of missing targets completely. What concerns me most is that we have been like this for a couple of years now. Gone are the days when Gilbee would be run through the middle with a long pinpoint pass to our forwards. The top teams don't miss targets like we do. And in a game that is essentially keepings off we just have to do better if we are to be top 4 in 2011.

[anfo27]

I didn't see many positives last night other than our intensity, never give in attitude and another game into the kids.
I've red a few posters suggesting we are still top4 material, i think we need to be realistic. There are a number of teams who have clearly gone past us and we are quickly becoming irrelevant when it comes to serious finals challengers. We should worry about making the 8 let alone the 4, i think we are in a world of trouble & a big chance not to make the 8.
Yes i am one of the Stack bashers but thought he tooka step in the right direction tonight. Yeah he made some errors but overall i saw more from him last night than i have from his previous 14 games combined. Gilbee on the other hand is a worry, missed 2 shots which is his bread & butter in the 1st 5 minutes of the game.
Was disgusted with Rougheads effort for the first 3quarters. He has a guy in the 2's who has played 3 BOGs and to come out with that tackling effort on Van Berlo (i think, can't remember quarter) to kick an easy goal was disgraceful. Wasn't pleased with Huddo's first 3quarters either.
I have never seen a team drop so many uncontested mark in a game before, that really hurt us.
Cooney's decision making and kicking is bewildering for someone who is suppose to be elite. Classic example was when he had the ball on his own 55m out, had 2 team mates run to provide an option and all he had to do was draw the defender, handball over the top for an easy goal but no he had to choose the most difficult option which stopped us from scoring all together, I can't believe we didn't score from that.
Big Barry was terrible. We really need a runner to carry a snickers bar with him at all times for situations just like last night.
Can't understand posters potting Boyd for last nights effort. We know his kicking isn't top shelf so we shouldn't be expecting perfection. He gets the ball under a lot of pressure and he doesn't have the ability to do what a Pendlebury can. Libba on the other hand showed great composure to pick out Grant in that last quarter when under immense pressure.
Hats off to Morris, Picken, Boyd & few others who were fantastic.
I'm going overseas next week so thankfully i will spared from watching the Collingwood game as i really can't see us get within 10 goals of them.

[w3design]

The Age gave one of the worst summaries of the game I have seen. A goal to 'ryan' Higgins, and Cooney in the best, among other clangers (conversely ward, Morris and Picken NOT in best, seeming to suggest a reporter who just scanned possession numbers.) Hopeless.

For what it's worth, thanks to MJP and Rocco for summing up my feelings about the game. Not a lack of heart or effort, but maybe a history of failure that has hung around the club makes us over anxious, introverted, burdened by fear of losing which sometimes swamps more than the fierce desire to win. Anyone who doubts their desire and heart is just silly.

But, we could have, should have, won. Despite these factors which give me hope :

1. shockers from our better players..cooney, hall. You'd like to think they could not play as poorly again. Also seriously doubting where gilbee is at.
2. back line which has been unstable for first few rounds..Brian absent, markovich though fitting in well still learning, stack ditto. Our key defenders Williams and Brian were not out there in last quarter (Williams injured, Brian in fwd line and then ??? Injured??)
3. Draw has not helped us regain confidence, skills, flow, and a recognizable 'game plan '.

Yet if we had eliminated one or two of the howlers (stacks handball, murph's OOF, hudsons dropped mark, hill's defensive effort which all cost goals)..we would have won, in a tough road trip. how buoyant would we all be if just one of those things had gone differently. I know some may say the point is, they don't far too often, but this is a game of inches..ask the saints and a rogue GF bounce.

[Ghost Dog]

He played in the forward line

McPharlin

[AndrewP6]

Big Barry was terrible. We really need a runner to carry a snickers bar with him at all times for situations just like last night.

He's a health nut, he wouldn't eat it! ;)


i really can't see us get within 10 goals of them.
Agreed, unfortunately.

[AndrewP6]

In the age, it says delivery to hall was just too high,

True enough, and very frustrating (for us, let alone Barry!)

[LostDoggy]

barry caanot play in the wet or dew. if any game is like this in the future he should be a late withdrawl

[LostDoggy]

I didn't think Barry was that bad.
I thought he worked his backside off pushing up the ground and trying to keep the ball in the F50. At the end he was either stuffed or injured. He got a lot of poor delivery and was often out numbered. 2 shots were from 50+. He was no worse than Higgins and Grant were for 3 quarters, Roughead for 4.

[LostDoggy]

Barry had multiple on him on a number of occasions. Where were the crumbers?

Does Grant always misjudge marks? He generally seems to either run under the line or if he gets there it's almost past his apex and he's trying to mark at full extention, almost behind his bodyline.

Thought Roughy was poor, but with Hudson possibly tired, Barry injured, he may be needed down forward. If Huddo is drained then i really think Mince should come in. He's roaring atm.


Like to see Wallis and Libba stay in.

The Pies match is a real test for those that flashed in late in the game against Freo who should be 3-4 quarter perfomers.

[Sedat]

Our game plan won't allow us to apply the pressure that Essendon were able to, and we won't handle the pressure Collingwood apply any better than Essendon did.
Bit harsh 'stache. Our game plan last night was good enough to withstand (for 117 minutes anyway) a team that implements a forward press every bit as fanatical as Collingwood's or Essendon's, and furthermore we were successful in regularly picking holes ourselves through the press. We have been frankly rubbish at handling the press, not to mention counter-attack through/around the press, in the last season and a bit, so for me the rate of improvement in 4 short weeks against this style of game has been significant. The key is for the playing group to buy in to this every week from now on.

[Ghost Dog]

We do have a tough run coming up. Like MJP I was pleased with the intensity last night as well as the never give up attitude, which was lacking last year.

After watching some of the Essendon match, I thought Collingwood looked vulnerable, particularly with the Essendon talls in their forward line. Essendon really lost because Hooker is not good enough to take on Cloke. Our skill level is going to have to be spot on against Collingwood.

Actually, after watching today's game Hawks V Geelong, actually the Cats who I think may pose the greater challenge. Either way, I think we have to be realistic about the season.

[Sedat]

As an aside, I noticed that Ryan Crowley had the grand total of 2 possessions for the entire match playing a (monumentally unsuccessful) defensive forward role on Murph - going on that performance, I think Jayden Schofield might still have trouble recognising him ;)

[Greystache]

Bit harsh 'stache. Our game plan last night was good enough to withstand (for 117 minutes anyway) a team that implements a forward press every bit as fanatical as Collingwood's or Essendon's, and furthermore we were successful in regularly picking holes ourselves through the press. We have been frankly rubbish at handling the press, not to mention counter-attack through/around the press, in the last season and a bit, so for me the rate of improvement in 4 short weeks against this style of game has been significant. The key is for the playing group to buy in to this every week from now on.

It is hard to tell from tv but I felt Freo's press isn't quite a refined as Essendon and substantially down on Collingwood's. Sunday will give us a better indication how much we've improved in our handling of intense pressure, like you said 2.5-3 quarters won't be good enough. The real issue is we yet again find ourselves kicking to a sole target inside forward 50 who has 2-3 opponents marking him, it happened all last season to Hall, and it happened the 2 years before that to Hahn, nothing has changed. It's so predictable opposition coaches know a loose defender across the defensive 50 will have a field day, yet we still allow our forwards to get sucked up the ground and stand stagnant in the midfield while we bomb long to a no win situation. Why? It's not as if they're providing such a vital role through the middle that we couldn't cope without the extra numbers, half the time we're bombing it in from the defensive side of the centre circle.

Which brings me to my major gripe.

The problem, or frustration more to the point, for me is this is only half the game, we also have to pressure and restrict Collingwood's attacks. It seems to me the only real improvement we've looked to make over the summer is in the area you've mentioned, and the jury's still out on how much progress we've actually made. Why we haven't made our primary off season focus to develop a vice like defensive press, or heaven forbid actually take a step forward and develop an evolution of last years successful tactic, and use that to help us take the next step is beyond my comprehension. Essendon were the most one dimensional, all out attacking, defenseless entity in recent memory, yet one preseason of pure focus on building a strong defensive structure and they have managed to pass about 8 other teams, and that's without having Brian Lake to repel attack after attack. We've been talking about it for 3 years, and other than a token effort to bring in a fringe player here and there who will chase in the forward line, we still concede nearly every opposition foray into the midfield will turn into an inside 50 entry, and just assume the defence will bail us out again.

I felt with the squad we've got we should have been a contender this year, but I think we'll be an also ran that gets exposed for lack of defensive structure, and a highly reboundable forward 50, not because we can't do it better but because we won't make it a non-negotiable for everyone in the team.

[bornadog]

Which brings me to my major gripe.

The problem, or frustration more to the point, for me is this is only half the game, we also have to pressure and restrict Collingwood's attacks. It seems to me the only real improvement we've looked to make over the summer is in the area you've mentioned, and the jury's still out on how much progress we've actually made. Why we haven't made our primary off season focus to develop a vice like defensive press, or heaven forbid actually take a step forward and develop an evolution of last years successful tactic, and use that to help us take the next step is beyond my comprehension. Essendon were the most one dimensional, all out attacking, defenseless entity in recent memory, yet one preseason of pure focus on building a strong defensive structure and they have managed to pass about 8 other teams, and that's without having Brian Lake to repel attack after attack. We've been talking about it for 3 years, and other than a token effort to bring in a fringe player here and there who will chase in the forward line, we still concede nearly every opposition foray into the midfield will turn into an inside 50 entry, and just assume the defence will bail us out again.

I felt with the squad we've got we should have been a contender this year, but I think we'll be an also ran that gets exposed for lack of defensive structure, and a highly reboundable forward 50, not because we can't do it better but because we won't make it a non-negotiable for everyone in the team.

I don't believe defense is an issue for us. Last year we were in the top couple of teams for least kicked against us and so far this year its a similar situation.

[Greystache]

I don't believe defense is an issue for us. Last year we were in the top couple of teams for least kicked against us and so far this year its a similar situation.

Last year the top 3 sides averaged 110 points per game against us, it's a major issue against premiership contenders.

[LostDoggy]

I felt with the squad we've got we should have been a contender this year, but I think we'll be an also ran that gets exposed for lack of defensive structure, and a highly reboundable forward 50, not because we can't do it better but because we won't make it a non-negotiable for everyone in the team.

It hasn't been a great start but I still think it's another month before we really know whether we can contest. Cooney had no pre-season and still looks far from settled. Just hope it is physical rather than mental or we are truely stuffed. Lake is still really only just out of hospital from a ridiculous number of operations. I hope barry hasn't suddenly hit middle age (yesterday was shocking) and then the grants, rougheads, wards etc need to really start to dig deep. Once shaggy comes back and we start to get some of guys fitter I'm hoping this group will start to gell again. I'm still confident we'll see different outfit in a month or so. The question will be whether it is then all too late. However,..... There's life in these old dogs yet!

[bornadog]

Last year the top 3 sides averaged 110 points per game against us, it's a major issue against premiership contenders.

Collingwood, yes but we also kicked 93, and 103 - still lost though, and that woeful game against Geelong. Forget the Saints they can't kick goals.

[Sedat]

Last year the top 3 sides averaged 110 points per game against us, it's a major issue against premiership contenders.
Agree with this, we have leaked like a sieve against the best teams of late. Hence why I think restricting Freo to 85 points (should have been 71 points) on their own patch is a step in the right direction defensively. Worth noting that Freo kicked about the same score against the Cats earlier this season and missed a hatful of gettable goals in that match.

[Desipura]

The problem is they don't work harder enough to get the pill often enough. Cooney 22 touches, Griffen 23 touches. Boyd doesn't have their talent but has a heart the size of Phar Lap.

Boyd tonight.

45 touches.
24 contested possessions.
12 clearances.
7 tackles.

A captains game.
No one can question they way he lead the team. His opponent had 1 good quarter

[Desipura]

He's hugely popular with the supporters who often can't find fault with him. At times I think I was the lone hand on the forum that didn't want him as the captain.
Correction, no you were not the only one.

[Desipura]

I would say skills were down more to the greasy ball than due to the pressure. Their pressure was good, but I would say ours was much better.

As for Boyd, he did a few good things but he still tries to do too much. 45 touches at 60% efficiency is still 27 effective touches, but those extra 18 could have been better utilised by our 'better' ball users.

When your forwards are not on the move, pretty hard to pinpoint delivery to them dont you think?

[bornadog]

Agree with this, we have leaked like a sieve against the best teams of late. Hence why I think restricting Freo to 85 points (should have been 71 points) on their own patch is a step in the right direction defensively. Worth noting that Freo kicked about the same score against the Cats earlier this season and missed a hatful of gettable goals in that match.

Yes Freo should be undefeated, they threw away that game.

[LostDoggy]

So glad for my “try to wait one day before posting” rule this year…

What I took out of Monday night was our effort. It was there for the entire game. That's all I want. It was a totally different loss to Round 1, and as long as we take that effort into the Collingwood match and they bleed red white and blue for 4 quarters, I don't give a toss what the result is.

It will be different come the business end of the season, of course, but for the moment the key thing to take away is that the boys are not laying down to die, nor are they imploding and blaming each other like St Kilda are.

[BulldogBelle]

So glad for my “try to wait one day before posting” rule this year…

What I took out of Monday night was our effort. It was there for the entire game. That's all I want. It was a totally different loss to Round 1, and as long as we take that effort into the Collingwood match and they bleed red white and blue for 4 quarters, I don't give a toss what the result is.

It will be different come the business end of the season, of course, but for the moment the key thing to take away is that the boys are not laying down to die, nor are they imploding and blaming each other like St Kilda are.



Agree.

Sometimes close games go your way, other times they dont.

We also have to remember that we are playing Libba, Roughead, Stack, Wallis, Jones (not last week) and Markovic- all with less than 20 games experience.

With Gia, Hargrave, and a fitter Cooney, Hall, Gilbee and Lake we are a vastly superior side.

Hey- if we played keepings off when we were 2 goals up in the last quarter, and Muphy didnt kick the ball out of bounds from a kick in, then the result may have been a tad different.....

[anfo27]

Agree.

Sometimes close games go your way, other times they dont.

We also have to remember that we are playing Libba, Roughead, Stack, Wallis, Jones (not last week) and Markovic- all with less than 20 games experience.

With Gia, Hargrave, and a fitter Cooney, Hall, Gilbee and Lake we are a vastly superior side.

Hey- if we played keepings off when we were 2 goals up in the last quarter, and Muphy didnt kick the ball out of bounds from a kick in, then the result may have been a tad different.....

Freo had quite a few out themselves Dog House.

If Freo didn't hand us a few goals in the last quarter by dropping easy marks inside their defensive 50 then the game would of been over a lot earlier. Easy to play the what if game.

[Murphy'sLore]

With Gia, Hargrave, and a fitter Cooney, Hall, Gilbee and Lake we are a vastly superior side.



I don't know if we should be relying on these players to pull us out of trouble. Hargrave, Hall and Gilbee are all showing signs of age. Who knows what's going on with Cooney. Maybe even Brian is starting to rust a little.

Not saying all is lost, but perhaps we are in a building phase this year rather than having a red hot crack.

[Ghost Dog]

I don't know if we should be relying on these players to pull us out of trouble. Hargrave, Hall and Gilbee are all showing signs of age. Who knows what's going on with Cooney. Maybe even Brian is starting to rust a little.
Not saying all is lost, but perhaps we are in a building phase this year rather than having a red hot crack.


He made some clangers V freo... just going through the replay on AFL.com.au.

In terms of foward line without Barry, you would have to say yes. Rebuilding.
We'll get good value out of him this season I hope before he hangs up the boots.

[Maddog37]

Hopefully Shaggy can get back to good form and Easton can come back in as well. This should provide more run and free up Murph and Even Lake at times to move forward depending on the need for lead up forward or another clunking mark type.

Against Freo we looked at our best when we ran through the forward 50 line rather than kicking into the 50. If not for Cooneys misses I reckon this would be even more pronounced.