Roughead Vs Collingwood

[Rance Fan]

As Hall is likely to out this week do you reckon we should have Roughead play out of the square at full forward or maybe have him back in the backline if Williams or Lake are out?
Maybe play him on Cloke, Dawes or Lee Brown?

Thoughts

[LostDoggy]

Don't think he would be mobile enough to down back, leave him in the forward & then have stints in the ruck.

[AndrewP6]

Forward and ruck.

[bornadog]

Can we also include Minson, with Roughead and Hudson and Hall out? Would that work?

[Rance Fan]

Can we also include Minson, with Roughead and Hudson and Hall out? Would that work?


I think so, we have to compete with their bigs and try something out of the ordinary to win this one.
For me Roughead CHB, Minson FF, Hudson R.. I think Roughhead is agile enough and Minson has been kicking goals in the VFL.
Could be a master stroke...possibly a major disaster. :D

[bornadog]

I think so, we have to compete with their bigs and try something out of the ordinary to win this one.
For me Roughead CHB, Minson FF, Hudson R.. I think Roughhead is agile enough and Minson has been kicking goals in the VFL.
Could be a master stroke...possibly a major disaster. :D

I can't see Roughie playing centre half back, he would get murdered by Cloke. Cloke is very athletic and covers a massive amount of ground. I just hope Williams is ok to go for Sunday.

[LostDoggy]

With young Jordon it's all about his centre of gravity, on the lead he's hard to stop as its hard to get past him , in a stationary pack anyone strong through the hips can push him over. He just would,nt be able to compete/ contribute effectively if he's was put in at CHB against Collingwood. The best place for him is the 40 metre square from the top of the forward 50 to the centre , any ball coming his way he can lead for then either mark - kick to a lead in the 50, mark - handpass to a runner, tap down to a runner. Jolly being free is a problem but the problem goes the other way too, Malthouse will have to decide whether to have Jolly stay with Roughhead or move Brown to work him over . Malthouse will also be tempted to move Maxwell in behind Roughhead to collect any spilled marks, as I have stated before I would want Grant to shadow Maxwell but only inside the 50 not if he moves up the ground. The idea would be to have Roughead and Grant as the one/ two punch , if Brown or Jolly moves to Roughead , Grant goes to either one and tries to drag them into the 50, Roughead goes to Maxwell but again he has to lead for the ball - Maxwell will push him off the ball if he's stationary. The whole idea is to try to keep either Brown or Jolly from going forward, if we can keep either one occupied by being tied up in the one/ two punch and we are able to create a few goals in the process , it's a win/win

Well, that's the theory anyway ;)

.

[Ghost Dog]

I think so, we have to compete with their bigs and try something out of the ordinary to win this one.
For me Roughead CHB, Minson FF, Hudson R.. I think Roughhead is agile enough and Minson has been kicking goals in the VFL.
Could be a master stroke...possibly a major disaster. :D

Watching the Anzac Day game, Cloke and Dawes were dangerous when they managed to get it but the key really is to cut off their supply.
Our midfield will be competative with Collingwoods. Boyd, Cross, Wallis / Ward V Thomas, Pendelbury / swan...we look ok there.

Certainly need to be prepared to throw a surprise at Collingwood -


I worry about Minson in our forward line, giving out frees. Still, it's now or never for Big Will.
Roughy at CBH... interesting.

[Mantis]

Our midfield will be competative with Collingwoods. Boyd, Cross, Wallis / Ward V Thomas, Pendelbury / swan...we look ok there.

Good luck with that.


I worry about Minson in our forward line, giving out frees. Still, it's now or never for Big Will.


How many frees does he give away in the forward line?

I wouldn't have thought it would be anywhere near the amount that Hall gives away.

[BulldogBelle]

Good luck with that.



How many frees does he give away in the forward line?

I wouldn't have thought it would be anywhere near the amount that Hall gives away.



Minson was notorious at giving away frees last season, which Rocket acredited to the Soy milk saga, whereby Will was playing overweight and was couldnt keep up with the pace of the game, hence making errors whilst fatigued.

Minson wont offer much more defensive pressure that what Hall offers, so for the weeks its a much for muchness swap.

I like the idea of both Cooney (when he gets his goalkicking on target) and Sherman playing in the forwardline, both are quick of the mark and give our forward line a bit of a X factor, plus they both can generally crumb quite well and read the play.

[Hotdog60]

If it was between Roughead and Minson, I would go Will. If Will gave away a free kick now and then I wouldn't mind as long as it hurt them physically. Hudson if fit as number 1 ruck and Will as the number 2. Also I would rest Huddo in the pocket instead of the bench so we can carry more runners.

[Mofra]

Minson wont offer much more defensive pressure that what Hall offers, so for the weeks its a much for muchness swap.
An empty twisties packet offers more defensive pressure than Hall. He is possibly the worst forward in the competition when it comes to defensive pressure.

Given Minson's attitude towards pre-season and his VFL form, I'm confident he has the ticker to do everything he can as a forward - I'm not confident he has the ability as a forward. He's a no 1 ruckman and I still don't believe that he can play in the same side as Hudson, especially against a side notorious for spreading well whenever they win the ball. We need the extra runner.

[LostDoggy]

Don't like Roughie in the backline - he is not mobile enough IMO. We have got to give Wilbur a run - he is tearing the house down in the VFL and deserves a run. Have been saying this for a couple of weeks now, I was surprised he didn't make the trip to WA.

[Sedat]

An empty twisties packet offers more defensive pressure than Hall. He is possibly the worst forward in the competition when it comes to defensive pressure.
Absolutely correct for 2011, but miles off the mark for 2010 and during Hall's tenure up in Sydney. One of Hall's great strengths as a key forward compared to other key forwards has been his defensive intensity - he would not have lasted at Sydney without these attributes. A combination of age and injury is rendering him impotent in this area in 2011 to date, and I agree that it is hurting our ability to pressure the defensive rebounders by having one lame duck in our forward 50. Teams are so good at finding the free man in congestion these days that the forward press breaks down unless everyone is able and willing to apply the defensive heat when needed to loock the ball in.

[Cyberdoggie]

I thought Jordan had a fairly ordinary game against Freo, also made a couple of soft mistakes, 1 in particular lead to a goal for freo, and he didn't really provide anything around the ground.

Having said that i wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. He's young and inexperienced and entitled to a bad game here and there. I'd say he's our next best contested marker in our list and he should play the majority up forward in Barry's spot plus some ruckwork to help out Hudson. I'd like Will in the side but there just isn't a spot for him, at least this week anyway.

[DOG GOD]

If i had to choose between Jones and roughie up fwd i would go for Jones. At least he is quick and can apply defensive pressure. I feel roughie (or minson for that fact) wont be agile enough to chase down the rebounding defenders. We need to be able to hold the ball in our 50 for as long as possible, and this is why players like Shaw and harryO need to be made accountable. Ward and Addison for mine, with Jones taking Maxwell away from the play. Who plays FF on Reid will be interesting.

[Mofra]

Absolutely correct for 2011, but miles off the mark for 2010 and during Hall's tenure up in Sydney.
Really? In 2010 he was 31st on our list for average tackles per game (1.17) and had a total of 28 from 24 games.

Gia had 94 (25 games), Hahn had 54 (19 games), Higgins had 52 (17 games), Josh Hill had 44 (12 games) - heck, even Aker managed 27 from his 9 games. Only Johnno was worse in our F50, with 14 from 15 games.

Hall compares poorly with his Bulldog peers, and compared to his peers he's not in the same league (2010).

Franklin - 68 from 18 games
Roughead - 43 from 23 games
Koschitzke - 35 from 21 games
N. Riewoldt - 26 from 15 games
J. Riewoldt - 68 from 22 games
Cloke - 56 from 24 games
Dawes - 51 from 20 games
Tom Hawkins - 47 from 18 games
Mooney - 32 from 21 games

Admitetdly I didn't go back to his glory years at the Swans, but the game has changed and forwards who don't provide defensive pressure are a dying breed. Hall is the worst at it in our F50 and given he gets so many F50 entries directed towards him, top sides will work this out and kill us on the rebound.

Do agree with the second part of your analysis.

[Greystache]

I mentioned it in the game day thread against Norf in Ballarat, Hall was providing zero defensive pressure and Norf appeared to be targeting his direct opponent as their get out player. It concerned me at the time and that hasn't changed still.

[Mofra]

I mentioned it in the game day thread against Norf in Ballarat, Hall was providing zero defensive pressure and Norf appeared to be targeting his direct opponent as their get out player. It concerned me at the time and that hasn't changed still.
Teams that perfect the third man up (ie Maxwell/Harry O at Collingwood) will have a field day.

[ratsmac]

I think it's about time for Minson to be given another go. Whether if its at the expence of Roughhead or not I not quite sure. Roughhead was poor last Monday but he wasn't alone. Hudsun is super competitive which is a massive plus but his decision making and disposal has been off. I believe Hudson will turn it around and doesn't need a spell in the VFL for that to happen. Hudson is still our safest bet as first ruck. Minson for Roughhead is most likely but will it happen.
I think playing the the 3 (Roughy Huddo and Minno) in the same team is far to risky. They aren't exactly your mobile style ruckmen are they. We are way too slow as it is. I'd be giving Roughhead a spell at Williamstown this week and leave these experiments for the lesser teams rather than the reigning premiers. Roughhead getting suspended for a week wouldn't have been too bad. It would of made it easier at the selection table thats for sure. But in saying that, I was upset he had a free kick paid against him for that let alone suspended, probably because we scored a goal and it didn't count.

[Murphy'sLore]

I'd be giving Roughhead a spell at Williamstown this week and leave these experiments for the lesser teams rather than the reigning premiers.

Disagree -- we are on a hiding to nothing this week anyway. We need to play like we've got nothing to lose.

[Sedat]

Really? In 2010 he was 31st on our list for average tackles per game (1.17) and had a total of 28 from 24 games.

Gia had 94 (25 games), Hahn had 54 (19 games), Higgins had 52 (17 games), Josh Hill had 44 (12 games) - heck, even Aker managed 27 from his 9 games. Only Johnno was worse in our F50, with 14 from 15 games.

Hall compares poorly with his Bulldog peers, and compared to his peers he's not in the same league (2010).

Franklin - 68 from 18 games
Roughead - 43 from 23 games
Koschitzke - 35 from 21 games
N. Riewoldt - 26 from 15 games
J. Riewoldt - 68 from 22 games
Cloke - 56 from 24 games
Dawes - 51 from 20 games
Tom Hawkins - 47 from 18 games
Mooney - 32 from 21 games

Admitetdly I didn't go back to his glory years at the Swans, but the game has changed and forwards who don't provide defensive pressure are a dying breed. Hall is the worst at it in our F50 and given he gets so many F50 entries directed towards him, top sides will work this out and kill us on the rebound.

Do agree with the second part of your analysis.
I stand corrected Mofra, but that genuinely staggers me. My underlying memories of Hall last year when he didn't have the ball was that he chased, harrassed and generally terrorised opposition defenders as soon as the ball hit the deck. With 28 tackles in 24 matches, that proves to be cleary not the case. He definitely had a strong defensive work ethic at the Swans.

I wonder if pressure acts were recorded last year, how would Hall stack up in that regard? I don't often recall him trailing in the wake of an opponent and allowing easy passage out of defensive 50. He's certainly regressed significantly this year in this area (off a lower base than I thought), which has been a noted Achilles Heel of our team in the last couple of years.

[Swoop]

Speaking of our forwardline, all preseason Eade was quite adamant that in 2011 we would modify our forward structures to ensure the goalspread was being shared and they highlighted our forward pressure as an area of weakness. Previously the argument was made that with an aging Johnson, Akermanis and Hahn we were exposed however 4 games into the season and with those 3 not playing have we improved this area of our game?

In terms of our forward set up, has anyone noticed any great change to the way we have previously set up? So far we have played two quality sides and our forward line has failed us on both occassions, my concern is that we knew about this weakness, have supposedly addressed this area yet nothing seems to have actually changed or improved.

[1eyedog]

Speaking of our forwardline, all preseason Eade was quite adamant that in 2011 we would modify our forward structures to ensure the goalspread was being shared and they highlighted our forward pressure as an area of weakness. Previously the argument was made that with an aging Johnson, Akermanis and Hahn we were exposed however 4 games into the season and with those 3 not playing have we improved this area of our game?

In terms of our forward set up, has anyone noticed any great change to the way we have previously set up? So far we have played two quality sides and our forward line has failed us on both occassions, my concern is that we knew about this weakness, have supposedly addressed this area yet nothing seems to have actually changed or improved.

Indeed.

Would we benefit form a reshuffle to a once again smaller forward line. Considering the lack of output we have gotten from Hall and Grant in terms of both points for as well as forward pressure and tackle counts inside F50 would it be worth throwing both DJ and Hooper in there? Can they both operate in there like a Milne and Schneider scenario?

[LostDoggy]

Speaking of our forwardline, all preseason Eade was quite adamant that in 2011 we would modify our forward structures to ensure the goalspread was being shared and they highlighted our forward pressure as an area of weakness. Previously the argument was made that with an aging Johnson, Akermanis and Hahn we were exposed however 4 games into the season and with those 3 not playing have we improved this area of our game?

In terms of our forward set up, has anyone noticed any great change to the way we have previously set up? So far we have played two quality sides and our forward line has failed us on both occassions, my concern is that we knew about this weakness, have supposedly addressed this area yet nothing seems to have actually changed or improved.

I thought the forward line was better in pressuring Fremantle than it has been all season. The big issue though was the delivery and the Barry Hall only vision of the midfielders delivering the pill.

Not a factor this week as Hall is out. I am looking forward to how we structure up this week.

[Go_Dogs]

I thought the forward line was better in pressuring Fremantle than it has been all season. The big issue though was the delivery and the Barry Hall only vision of the midfielders delivering the pill.

Not a factor this week as Hall is out. I am looking forward to how we structure up this week.

Hypothetical, but if we kick 20+ goals and win on Sunday, do we bring Hall back?

[AndrewP6]

Hypothetical, but if we kick 20+ goals and win on Sunday, do we bring Hall back?

Absolutely. If he's good to go, it'd be madness to leave him on the sideline.

[Ghost Dog]

There was one bit of play in the 4Q V Dockers.
Hall goes back into the square and three defenders go to him.
Shermen scoops up the ball, passes to a jogging Grant
Grant shunts it over the line.
Barry, even underdone, will draw defenders and it's not something you can get a stat for.
Sherman and Hall can work alongside each other very well.

[Mofra]

I wonder if pressure acts were recorded last year, how would Hall stack up in that regard? I don't often recall him trailing in the wake of an opponent and allowing easy passage out of defensive 50. He's certainly regressed significantly this year in this area (off a lower base than I thought), which has been a noted Achilles Heel of our team in the last couple of years.
Hard to find stats on it, but when Jones was running around (and noting Grant's efforts last year), it was noticeable the difference in defensive pressure. Jones is excellent in his chasing/harassing opponents - he almost plays like a defensive forward at times.

FWIW my concern with Jones is he seems to have a little bit of "Cam Faulkner" syndrome - can do all the tough stuff, but not enough of the easy stuff. Another poster noted he often goes for marks with his arms bent too, which allow his opponent a chance to spoil. The best marks in the game tend to take their marks at full extention (Cloke & the Riewoldts are excellent examples). Hopefully this is something we can coach out of him in time, remembering the kid is only playing in his second season against adults.

[LostDoggy]

There was one bit of play in the 4Q V Dockers.
Hall goes back into the square and three defenders go to him.
Shermen scoops up the ball, passes to a jogging Grant
Grant shunts it over the line.
Barry, even underdone, will draw defenders and it's not something you can get a stat for.
Sherman and Hall can work alongside each other very well.

I agree but the players delivering the ball need to widen there vision. A lot of time even on the TV you could see loose forwards yet it was still kicked to Barry.

[LostDoggy]

With young Jordon it's all about his centre of gravity, on the lead he's hard to stop as its hard to get past him , in a stationary pack anyone strong through the hips can push him over. He just would,nt be able to compete/ contribute effectively if he's was put in at CHB against Collingwood. The best place for him is the 40 metre square from the top of the forward 50 to the centre , any ball coming his way he can lead for then either mark - kick to a lead in the 50, mark - handpass to a runner, tap down to a runner. Jolly being free is a problem but the problem goes the other way too, Malthouse will have to decide whether to have Jolly stay with Roughhead or move Brown to work him over . Malthouse will also be tempted to move Maxwell in behind Roughhead to collect any spilled marks, as I have stated before I would want Grant to shadow Maxwell but only inside the 50 not if he moves up the ground. The idea would be to have Roughead and Grant as the one/ two punch , if Brown or Jolly moves to Roughead , Grant goes to either one and tries to drag them into the 50, Roughead goes to Maxwell but again he has to lead for the ball - Maxwell will push him off the ball if he's stationary. The whole idea is to try to keep either Brown or Jolly from going forward, if we can keep either one occupied by being tied up in the one/ two punch and we are able to create a few goals in the process , it's a win/win

Well, that's the theory anyway ;)

.

Well, with Jolly out , the theory still stands , dragging Wood or Brown in to our Forward 50 and dragging Maxwell to the top of the 50 or into the centre unbalances Collingwood's rebound structure, the main point of the one/ two punch is try to create a goal opportunity from a mismatch, Grant is too fast on the lead for Wood or Brown, Roughead is too hard to get around on the lead for Maxwell , you then rotate Roughead and Grant again so Roughead is back in the 40m square from the top of the 50 to the centre , and Grant shadows Maxwell.

Even if this only works properly 60% of the time , thats 60% of the game where Malthouse has a rebound imbalance, thats 60% of the game where we can create a goal from a mismatch

again, that's the theory anyway

.