So where are we at?

[Maddog37]

I think this may be my first thread so bear with me.

The ongoing selection of youth really has me confused as to what this year is all about. Are we challengers nursing older guys into form or are we transitioning into a young up and coming team?

Rocket is certainly giving players a chance (some might say even when not fully deserved) to step up which makes the Doggies a great place to be if you are young and fit.

How do we think we will look at years end. Will Lake nudge out Marko? Will Will or Huddo keep out Ruff? Will Shaggy get back to his best and jettison Stack? Easton looks a certainty to me as does Libba and Wallis. What happens if Zephi turns it on and Jones continues to improve? Does this mean Gilbee and Gia are under pressure? Where does Reid fit in?

One thing is for sure, it is bloody great to see the kids play and if we get to see Tutt, Howard, Cordy, Schofield and maybe Mulligan before the year is out I will be a happy camper.

Everything I hear about Dollhouse is also super positive.

If I did not know better I would think Rocket is trying to win a flag and implement a youth policy at the same time. As Dennis Cometti would say "that's ambitious."

[mjp]

I want to see kids playing as long as we are winning.

The Skinner selection this week - and suggestions of adding the likes of Mulligan to the team - smack of desperation moves to me and I dont like them...

[bornadog]

I want to see kids playing as long as we are winning. ...

Agree, as long as we win and blood the kids the future will be super bright. In fact thats what Collingwood did a few years ago and played finals at the same time.

[LostDoggy]

I think this may be my first thread so bear with me.

The ongoing selection of youth really has me confused as to what this year is all about. Are we challengers nursing older guys into form or are we transitioning into a young up and coming team?

Rocket is certainly giving players a chance (some might say even when not fully deserved) to step up which makes the Doggies a great place to be if you are young and fit.

How do we think we will look at years end. Will Lake nudge out Marko? Will Will or Huddo keep out Ruff? Will Shaggy get back to his best and jettison Stack? Easton looks a certainty to me as does Libba and Wallis. What happens if Zephi turns it on and Jones continues to improve? Does this mean Gilbee and Gia are under pressure? Where does Reid fit in?

One thing is for sure, it is bloody great to see the kids play and if we get to see Tutt, Howard, Cordy, Schofield and maybe Mulligan before the year is out I will be a happy camper.

Everything I hear about Dollhouse is also super positive.

If I did not know better I would think Rocket is trying to win a flag and implement a youth policy at the same time. As Dennis Cometti would say "that's ambitious."

Where are we at ? The same place everyone else is , list management with regards to the Interchange Rule/ Sub Rule, it's just that we havn't quite kicked into gear. Our Backline is being rebuilt , Lake ( when he's properly match fit ), Williams and Markovic are our main structure that the backline will be built around, 1 Full back/ Swing Defense ( Lake ) , 2 Center Half Back ( Williams , Markovic ) , 1 Blocker/ Shutdown ( Morris ) , 1 Defense Support ( Murphy ) , 1 Runner ( still to be decided ). Our Midfield has been reshuffled with the addition of Libba and Wallis , the change in the Tag role has Picken needing to provide screens rather than shutting down an individual player. Our Forward Line is in a state of flux, not enough output , not enough defensive pressure , not enough options, Hall is injured, Higgins and Grant are low on form, Jones has promise , Sherman has injected some life , Roughead has to learn how to lead for the ball, Minson could play a role , the focus from now on will be on structure and pressure.

At the moment we are playing like a side trying to organize a move into the Top 8 but there are positives , even though we are rebuilding we drew level with Collingwood before they found another gear. Our rotation of players will benefit us later , the more game time they get the better Libba, Wallis and the others will be come the last 10 games of the Season

As Dennis Cometti once said " It's like watching Usain Bolt run in Doc Martens , you know the power is there but he just can't get power to the ground "

.

[Pedro Sanchez]

Although I'm all for kids getting game time and as this is not actually possible at the moment, but I'd like to see Hahn back in the team up forward.

His strength and experience would be invaluable to Grant and Jones - especially with Barry out.

Anyway I look forward to Wood making a return - he's exciting.

[jeemak]

We're playing the cards dealt to us, making the most of early season injury to see what some young folk can do.

Lake - Not up to it at the moment, out of the team for fitness and IMO disciplinary reasons

Wood - Injured, would be in most peoples preferred 22

Hall - Injured, would be in most peoples preferred 22

Higgins - Injured, would be in most peoples preferred 22

Hargrave - Injured, would be in most peoples preferred 22


Having these guys out of the side, plus losing from last year Harbrow, Eagleton, Johnson and effectively Hahn we have no other choice than to blood some youngsters.

This week the experience of players like Gia and Gilbee will be incredibly important. Some people have called for them not to be included, all I'll say is it's a fine balance when you have significant injury and many young players trying to fill the void.

We're aiming for a premiership this year, but at the same time we're taking the opportunity to throw youth into the deep end while we can. Our list will mature very well if we can win games along the way.

[Doc26]

Although I'm all for kids getting game time and as this is not actually possible at the moment, but I'd like to see Hahn back in the team up forward.

His strength and experience would be invaluable to Grant and Jones - especially with Barry out.

Anyway I look forward to Wood making a return - he's exciting.

Of course Hahn being rookie listed is only permitted to return if we had someone placed on the long term injury list which for now is not an option.

[Bulldog Revolution]

The ongoing selection of youth really has me confused as to what this year is all about. Are we challengers nursing older guys into form or are we transitioning into a young up and coming team?

If I did not know better I would think Rocket is trying to win a flag and implement a youth policy at the same time. As Dennis Cometti would say "that's ambitious."

I think we are selling the vision that we are contenders, but the reality of performances is that we are not, and the coaching staff believes we need to introduce new players to compete

I view the only way forward as blooding kids and introducing youth, and seeing who can cut it, who will lift their work rate, whose game translates, and who desperately wants to make it etc

That said if we can string together a good couple of months then Eade will be hailed retrospectively as a genius

[Sedat]

The Skinner selection this week - and suggestions of adding the likes of Mulligan to the team - smack of desperation moves to me and I dont like them...
Is he that much of a pipe dream right now? Can he add some much needed defensive intensity in our forward 50? I'll bow to your judgement as well as the Willy track watchers, as I hardly see any VFL action.

I understand the negaitves on him at the moment but can he bring something positive to the table for us tomorrow? Our MC must be pleased with certain aspects of his game to give him a run in the seniors.

[mjp]

Is he that much of a pipe dream right now? Can he add some much needed defensive intensity in our forward 50? I'll bow to your judgement as well as the Willy track watchers, as I hardly see any VFL action.

I understand the negaitves on him at the moment but can he bring something positive to the table for us tomorrow? Our MC must be pleased with certain aspects of his game to give him a run in the seniors.

Don't bend to my judgement - I haven't seen him play (vs Swans only game I saw) but forward pressure was not really something that jumped out at me. What role will he play? Forward I guess, but where...you wouldn't want him matched up against a running machine like Shaw or Kenneally, so does that mean Mattner? Maybe Smith? I guess it means deep...where we have been screaming out for crumbers but he wasn't that when I saw him.

I don't like yo-yo selections (Addison, Stack over the past two weeks) particularly when they relate to peripheral players...they are not going to win or lose the game for us.

[DOG GOD]

The dropping of players only to be called the following week absolutely makes no sense to me. Stack hasnt set the world on fire and realistically is only an avge AFL player. He gets dropped, doesnt do much in the VFL, then gets recalled the following week. What happened to players earning their spots, slugging it away in the lower grade putting together a string of 3-4 strong performances before getting their chance in the 1sts.

I agree with MJP that the yo-yo selections really leaves me scratching my head as they are nothing more than fringe players. If the MC pick the guy, keep with him UNLESS someone in the lower league is knocking the door down. I cant see that Stack wouldve been picked exclusively for a certain matchup.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I think we are selling the vision that we are contenders, but the reality of performances is that we are not, and the coaching staff believes we need to introduce new players to compete

I view the only way forward as blooding kids and introducing youth, and seeing who can cut it, who will lift their work rate, whose game translates, and who desperately wants to make it etc

That said if we can string together a good couple of months then Eade will be hailed retrospectively as a genius

The introduction of youth has largely been influenced by an ineffective attack and an indifferent defense.We remain competitive whilst the likes of Griffen,Boyd and Cross continue to play well. We need the likes of Ward,Higgins and Sherman to become more consistent players. Minson also becomes a key in the ruck if he can become more reliable and effective in the ruck. Quality key forwards and backs remain a problem.

[FrediKanoute]

I think we are at a bit of a crossroad. The loss of experienced players of the last 2 seasons, even though they may not have been contributing greatly on the field, has left a hole. Whilst Johnno last year was ineffective he still drew a good player to mind him. What we are seeing this year is other players havign to shoulder more of the role and tbh they probably aren't quite ready for it.

I think we are a top 8 side, but have slipped off the pace a little in terms of top 4. I think though that this slip is a blip, more of a pause, whilst we catch our breath and relaunch later this season......watch for the fast finishing doggies!

[LostDoggy]

Where are we at? We will get another indication today.

[LostDoggy]

I think we are at a bit of a crossroad. The loss of experienced players of the last 2 seasons, even though they may not have been contributing greatly on the field, has left a hole. Whilst Johnno last year was ineffective he still drew a good player to mind him. What we are seeing this year is other players havign to shoulder more of the role and tbh they probably aren't quite ready for it.

I think we are a top 8 side, but have slipped off the pace a little in terms of top 4. I think though that this slip is a blip, more of a pause, whilst we catch our breath and relaunch later this season......watch for the fast finishing doggies!

I think your right that we will finish fast but maybe not fast enough for top 4.

[LostDoggy]

Don't bend to my judgement - I haven't seen him play (vs Swans only game I saw) but forward pressure was not really something that jumped out at me. What role will he play? Forward I guess, but where...you wouldn't want him matched up against a running machine like Shaw or Kenneally, so does that mean Mattner? Maybe Smith? I guess it means deep...where we have been screaming out for crumbers but he wasn't that when I saw him.

I don't like yo-yo selections (Addison, Stack over the past two weeks) particularly when they relate to peripheral players...they are not going to win or lose the game for us.

I thought it was tough on Addison to only get one game in and then back to Willi, must kill his confidence.

[LostDoggy]

on today's performance , all at sea :confused: :mad:

.

[AndrewP6]

Staring at the top 8 from beneath, IMO.

[Ghost Dog]

At a guess, I have a hint we still may make the 8 but that'sabout as far.
In terms of finals footy, time to start thinking about next season which is really sad.

[DOG GOD]

If teams like Rich, Melb, Syd, and Saints pull off some flukey wins, it will make it hard for us. We need to pull off a win against one or two top sides, which i cant see us doing by todays 4 qtr effort.

[LostDoggy]

We play Richmond next week and that will tell you something.

[FrediKanoute]

The tigers game is a must win game now. Not an easy one either. The thing is though its an even competition and 11 wins will probably see a side into the 8. We have 2 with 6 games played. I would back us to win another 9 out if 16 or so games left.

With our injury list, this was always going to be a tough 1st half offered year. With a little bit if pick we could be 4-2 instead of 2-4. I wonder though if the lake dramas are a sign of a deeper level of disharmony in the squad.

[Chicago1]

So... we have the same number of wins as the Gold Coast Suns. And we play Richmond, who demolished the Dockers, next week. Great. This year is not turning out like I had expected. :(

We must beat Richmond next week. Must!

[chef]

Time to get games into as many kids as we can with an eye for the future, but with Eade trying to hold onto his job I can't see this happening.

[azabob]

Time to get games into as many kids as we can with an eye for the future, but with Eade trying to hold onto his job I can't see this happening.

But why not? Let's just say for a moment we continue to go south. Eade goes to the board and says, Im taking a different approach I am going to play the younger players with a view to the future.

If he does that and they show something why wouldn't Garlick and Co give him another 2 years?

[chef]

But why not? Let's just say for a moment we continue to go south. Eade goes to the board and says, Im taking a different approach I am going to play the younger players with a view to the future.

If he does that and they show something why wouldn't Garlick and Co give him another 2 years?

Your asking the wrong person as I think it's time for a change.

[azabob]

Your asking the wrong person as I think it's time for a change.

I don't know which way to go. Would you want a tried or untried coach?

[SonofScray]

It has really started to look like a another horror year for us. A little bit out of the blue, like 2007 where we just ell in a heap after a few promising seasons. Only this time the frustration exponentially larger because we have risen, and risen under Eade and now appear to be slipping with nothing to show for it.

Where are we at? I think we're in strife. As a fan I've really lost any sense of what our team stands for, unlike a few years ago when we were really a slick, running side working on our contested ability. At the moment we're a bit like the other top teams just not as good at any aspect they've become elite at.

We've got serious issues around consistency and effort, skill level is deteriorating and injuries have been cruel. I'm getting the sense that some of these player issues like Aker and the Lake/Eagleton stuff might have eroded some of the 'esprit de corps' around the traps as well. I think we've seen some Dog's teams over the years really look like they are playing for each other, for the jumper and bring that emotional side of the game to match day. This current crop as we venture further into Eade's tenure has become much more robotic (some will argue that this should read 'more professional.')

If things fall into place we're still a chance for finals and still a chance to win a few games there. Unfortunately though I have no confidence in this squad to get it done. We've had three chances, gone to the well with the same plan each time and have been let down by the same players. Nothing about this year suggests that any of those class of 99 types will do the job Rocket wants when it counts, maybe Bob if he is fit.

I'm still in the wait and see camp but have a bad feeling the season is shot already. Might be time to turn the torch on a few players and Rocket.

[mjp]

Time to get games into as many kids as we can with an eye for the future, but with Eade trying to hold onto his job I can't see this happening.

How many more kids do you want to play?

[Ghost Dog]

Your asking the wrong person as I think it's time for a change.

Hi Chef.


So in your view, a % figure of players V coach regarding how much blame you lay regarding our current prediciment

I was talking to a friend of mine about American NFL, where the contract arrangements a la Neil Craig are more the norm. He said, the pressure is a lot less when things go south over there, whereas in AFL, fans get pretty feral on the coach fast.
The constant speculation is a factor they don't have or something along those lines and the players tend to be blamed more than the coach. Not sure...just what he said.

You honestly think Rocket was to blame for our mid game fade out on Sunday?

[chef]

I don't know which way to go. Would you want a tried or untried coach?

Probably an untried coach(unless Roos wanted to coach us, plus we would never be able to afford Malthouse)).

[chef]

Hi Chef.


So in your view, a % figure of players V coach regarding how much blame you lay regarding our current prediciment

I was talking to a friend of mine about American NFL, where the contract arrangements a la Neil Craig are more the norm. He said, the pressure is a lot less when things go south over there, whereas in AFL, fans get pretty feral on the coach fast.
The constant speculation is a factor they don't have or something along those lines and the players tend to be blamed more than the coach. Not sure...just what he said.

You honestly think Rocket was to blame for our mid game fade out on Sunday?

It's his game style and his group of players. He's had 7 years to mould this.

[chef]

How many more kids do you want to play?

I would like as many as possible, but I have the view that this group of players are not going to win us a flag(I hope I'm wrong) and we missed our chance over the last 3 years.

[mjp]

I would like as many as possible, but I have the view that this group of players are not going to win us a flag(I hope I'm wrong) and we missed our chance over the last 3 years.

OK.

But we are already playing:

Markovic
Ward
Skinner
Wallis
Higgins
Roughead
Jones
Grant
Hill
Stack
Moles
Wood
Addison

Fair enough with regards to vets (Gia, Hall, Boyd, Cross, Hudson, Gilbee, Hargrave, Morris, Lake, Murphy) and young vets (Cooney, Griffen, Williams, Picken) but I am not sure how much younger we can get.

If Shaggy comes in over the next couple of weeks (and I think he should) then the likes of Schofield will move back a rung in terms of selection...

I know you are saying 'play the kids' but I would have said that we ARE playing the kids. The problem I have with it is playing a kid like Skinner yesterday when to me he was never going to be right to play. And others such as Dalhous who appears to both fit a need and be 'ready' to be given a go are not eligible to be promoted.

[chef]

OK.

But we are already playing:

Markovic
Ward
Skinner
Wallis
Higgins
Roughead
Jones
Grant
Hill
Stack
Moles
Wood
Addison

Fair enough with regards to vets (Gia, Hall, Boyd, Cross, Hudson, Gilbee, Hargrave, Morris, Lake, Murphy) and young vets (Cooney, Griffen, Williams, Picken) but I am not sure how much younger we can get.

If Shaggy comes in over the next couple of weeks (and I think he should) then the likes of Schofield will move back a rung in terms of selection...

I know you are saying 'play the kids' but I would have said that we ARE playing the kids. The problem I have with it is playing a kid like Skinner yesterday when to me he was never going to be right to play. And others such as Dalhous who appears to both fit a need and be 'ready' to be given a go are not eligible to be promoted.

I guess there is only one way to find out who is the right kid to play. I would like to give Skinner a couple more weeks before making judgement on him, coming on as a sub during the third quarter isn't the best IMO.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I guess there is only one way to find out who is the right kid to play. I would like to give Skinner a couple more weeks before making judgement on him, coming on as a sub during the third quarter isn't the best IMO.

You're just making excuses for a kid who isn't anywhere near ready for AFL football. OK, he's had a taste and should have an idea of how far he has to go. Now send him back to Willi for the rest of the year.

We are where we are because we have played too many kids. The 20 game rule means we are not allowed to critisize because obviously every one of them is our saviour - except Stack of course - but the harsh reality is that "good efforts" and "encouraging" from inexperienced players is equal to "should be dumped forever and possibly shot just to make sure" from experienced players.


Probably a bad example, but Boyd - 33 touches, 6 tackles, 67% efficency was apparently the cause of the problem. Ward - 24 touches, 1 tackle, 71% efficency was BOG.

The difference I see there was Boyd tackled and got it a heap more times.

[chef]

You're just making excuses for a kid who isn't anywhere near ready for AFL football. OK, he's had a taste and should have an idea of how far he has to go. Now send him back to Willi for the rest of the year.

We are where we are because we have played too many kids. The 20 game rule means we are not allowed to criticize because obviously every one of them is our saviour - except Stack of course - but the harsh reality is that "good efforts" and "encouraging" from inexperienced players is equal to "should be dumped forever and possibly shot just to make sure" from experienced players.


Probably a bad example, but Boyd - 33 touches, 6 tackles, 67% efficiency was apparently the cause of the problem. Ward - 24 touches, 1 tackle, 71% efficency was BOG.

The difference I see there was Boyd tackled and got it a heap more times.

I'm not making excuses, how can we tell if he's ready for AFL coming on as a sub in the third quarter. I would just like to see him get a couple of games in a row. Could you tell with Wallis after his game against Freo?

We are where we are at because our more senior players aren't having a big enough influence on matches(and maybe our game plan is outdated?), Boyd excluded as he has been fantastic so far this year but can't do it all by himself.

I don't mind us playing the kids because in my mind ATM we are not a premiership threat and the games we can get into them this year will hold us in good stead for the future.

[LostDoggy]

I'm not making excuses, how can we tell if he's ready for AFL coming on as a sub in the third quarter. I would just like to see him get a couple of games in a row. Could you tell with Wallis after his game against Freo?

We are where we are at because our more senior players aren't having a big enough influence on matches(and maybe our game plan is outdated?), Boyd excluded as he has been fantastic so far this year but can't do it all by himself.I don't mind us playing the kids because in my mind ATM we are not a premiership threat and the games we can get into them this year will hold us in good stead for the future.

First time I've heard this on this website.

[chef]

First time I've heard this on this website.

Really?

I thought he has lead well by example in all our matches this year.

[LostDoggy]

Really?

I thought he has lead well by example in all our matches this year.
I agree Boyd has been great, people whinge about his disposal, when you get the ball as much as someone like him you are going to stuff some up, better than not getting the ball.

[the banker]

I think the obsession with youth is silly. Paul Roos and Michael Malthouse have built premierships on recruiting experienced players that will do a job and help build the team ethos. For a kid to come in and impose on a game is extremely rare. (Martin is one out of the box) In an Aristotlean sense I think we need balance. At the moment on this forum there seems to be an excess of "try kid" mentality. We have been blooding enough kids (probably too many). Give responsibility and a sense of purpose to the older players. Experience counts for lots in my book.

Our aim at this point should be to start winning games. If we won the next 2 we will have confidence going in against the Hawks. We haven't failed yet so lets keep our sights on making the eight, and having the team up and going in September.

[LostDoggy]

I agree Boyd has been great, people whinge about his disposal, when you get the ball as much as someone like him you are going to stuff some up, better than not getting the ball.

Absolute crap.

Griffen had 27 disposals on the weekend, and was a lot more effective then Boyd.

I would rather Boyd have 20 disposals, all effective & have an impact on the game.

[Ghost Dog]

I think the obsession with youth is silly. Paul Roos and Michael Malthouse have built premierships on recruiting experienced players that will do a job and help build the team ethos. For a kid to come in and impose on a game is extremely rare. (Martin is one out of the box) In an Aristotlean sense I think we need balance. At the moment on this forum there seems to be an excess of "try kid" mentality. We have been blooding enough kids (probably too many). Give responsibility and a sense of purpose to the older players. Experience counts for lots in my book.

Our aim at this point should be to start winning games. If we won the next 2 we will have confidence going in against the Hawks. We haven't failed yet so lets keep our sights on making the eight, and having the team up and going in September.


LOL in an Aristotlean sense...hmmmm
I suddenly had an image of Rocket Eade in a Toga..
How does an Aristotlean sense of balance differ from your common garden variety of balance? ^_^

Glove38 - didn't Boyd come out in an article and pretty much admit his disposal had been pretty awful? Seem to recall him being pretty honest about it....

[GVGjr]

I'm not making excuses, how can we tell if he's ready for AFL coming on as a sub in the third quarter.


His form at Williamstown and on the training track is a fairly good indication. I get where you are coming from but the match committee did him no favors by selecting him.

[LostDoggy]

Glove38 - didn't Boyd come out in an article and pretty much admit his disposal had been pretty awful? Seem to recall him being pretty honest about it....

I am not sure, if he did, i am glad he is honest in his own assessment of himself this season.

Boyd can definitely improve a hell of a lot this season, that's the one bonus we have.

[LostDoggy]

His form at Williamstown and on the training track is a fairly good indication. I get where you are coming from but the match committee did him no favors by selecting him.

I suspect the MC went to him because they are desperate to fix our foward line and he at least brings (or was meant to) forward pressure. He's not ready, but our forward line is filled with not quite readies ATM. We desperately need Grant to show more of his form from late last year, Jones is 2 years away IMO, Roughy could be anything if he gets 1000 hours kicking practice in, and them we throw some bitza's up there each week. Johnno is a desperate loss - the timing of his fade-out is just terrible as we need his fortitude and calming presence up front at the moment. I think we seriousy need to consider faking an injury, bring back Hahn and possibly Murphy to the front third of the ground. I don't disagree with the arguments about the risks to Murphs longevity but its a punt we really need to start considering if we are going to be contenders IMO....

[Ghost Dog]

I suspect the MC went to him because they are desperate to fix our foward line and he at least brings (or was meant to) forward pressure. He's not ready, but our forward line is filled with not quite readies ATM. We desperately need Grant to show more of his form from late last year, Jones is 2 years away IMO, Roughy could be anything if he gets 1000 hours kicking practice in, and them we throw some bitza's up there each week. Johnno is a desperate loss - the timing of his fade-out is just terrible as we need his fortitude and calming presence up front at the moment. I think we seriousy need to consider faking an injury, bring back Hahn and possibly Murphy to the front third of the ground. I don't disagree with the arguments about the risks to Murphs longevity but its a punt we really need to start considering if we are going to be contenders IMO....

Contenders....
Who, out of those close to the club still think we are contenders this season?

[LostDoggy]

Contenders....
Who, out of those close to the club still think we are contenders this season?

While the emotional supporter in me is looking for forks to stick in us so I can just write the season off there are still some factors that lead me to think this is premature.

Following a pattern set in the last two years we have had a slowish start to the season. Sadly for us as the competition has improved and we have not had some of the easy wins we have enjoyed in the last two years. We have had two close games that we could have won but didn't, where in previous years we have won some games that we might have dropped. I think we have been preparing with a view to hitting form later in the year and expected to have won more of these close games even though not running at full tilt.

I think while we do not want to deal in excuses our draw has been horrible, a terrible first up loss followed by two very easy wins, then a 16 day break and trip to WA, then a 6 day break to tackle the premiers, then another 6 day break and travel to Canberra. We have had to work with a lot of disruption in our preparation.

Also our injuries have been significant with half of our starting backline out, Wood, Lake, Hargave and Gilbee who is being played up field. Our forward line has consistently missed half of its starting team as well with Higgins, Hall and Gia all missing key games. Key players have played games that they were not fit to play which has also hurt us in Lake and Hall.

Player turnover has also been really high with a higher number of changes then we would normally look to make. We have added new players to the mix in Sherman, Djerkurra, Wallis, Libba, Markovic and Skinner, as well as getting games into players with less then 20games experience in Roughead and Jones. Not only is this a high number of changes but they are mutliple changes in the forward and defensive ends not conducive to creating good team flow.

This is not to say that we do not have our problems. We still seem to be falling off too many tackles especially from front on, and have recorded very few run down tackles compared to some other sides. We have been caught very badly short with finding a more versatile ruck combination and the form of Hudson is a grave concern given he has arguably been well beaten by all of Hillle, Sandilands and Mumford. Our midfiled which has the least best 22 players out has so far struggled to dominate a game like we feel they should. Although in part this may be effected by our ruck troubles.

We also do not seem to have really embraced a new game style, with easy wins showing us moving the ball through the corridor but the last two weeks showing us adopt the Collingwood around the boundary style of football.

Once we get a side that is closer to our best 22 on the park then I think we might be in a better position to judge where we are at. Although at this rate unless our form turns sharply and we play like we did mid way through last year for the rest of the year, we are almost no show of making top four which would require us to lose no more then 2 or 3 more games for the season. I think we can still make 5 or 6 but it has been a long time since a side made the GF from there although Collingwood were a kick away from it in 2007.

[LostDoggy]

Hi Chef.


So in your view, a % figure of players V coach regarding how much blame you lay regarding our current prediciment

I was talking to a friend of mine about American NFL, where the contract arrangements a la Neil Craig are more the norm. He said, the pressure is a lot less when things go south over there, whereas in AFL, fans get pretty feral on the coach fast.
The constant speculation is a factor they don't have or something along those lines and the players tend to be blamed more than the coach. Not sure...just what he said.

You honestly think Rocket was to blame for our mid game fade out on Sunday?

He's the top man, so yes, it's his fault. Such is the responsibility of command. :)

For the record, I'm not saying let's sack him yet. But he does need to shoulder the blame. I haven't seen him accept blame for anything in a long time (except the ruck fiasco vs Essendon)

[LostDoggy]

I think while we do not want to deal in excuses our draw has been horrible, a terrible first up loss followed by two very easy wins, then a 16 day break and trip to WA, then a 6 day break to tackle the premiers, then another 6 day break and travel to Canberra. We have had to work with a lot of disruption in our preparation.


Yeah look I have whinged about our draw before but this one was our fault entirely, I think the $ we gained from selling our home game to Canberra has equated to a cost of four points.

[LostDoggy]

Absolute crap.

Griffen had 27 disposals on the weekend, and was a lot more effective then Boyd.

I would rather Boyd have 20 disposals, all effective & have an impact on the game.
Who would you have in instead of Boyd if he is so bad, which I think is CRAP

[bornadog]

Absolute crap.

Griffen had 27 disposals on the weekend, and was a lot more effective then Boyd.

I would rather Boyd have 20 disposals, all effective & have an impact on the game.

Based on prostats:

Boyd - 30 disposals at 83.3% effective, 5 turnovers

Griffen 27 - at 59.3% - 11 turnovers

[comrade]

Based on prostats:

Boyd - 30 disposals at 83.3% effective, 5 turnovers

Griffen 27 - at 59.3% - 11 turnovers

There is a difference between effective and damaging.

How does Prostats measure effectiveness and what do they deem a turnover? Is it an errant kick or handball to the opposition, is it a kick to a contest which gets taken away by the other team?

[LostDoggy]

Contenders....
Who, out of those close to the club still think we are contenders this season?

Just give up then??! I'm not convinced we are cooked just yet. Issues, yes, but if the boys can click over the next 5-6 weeks we can get back into this. Sometimes a little bit of pressure and few losses can make a team harden up. St Kilda were written off in the same way this time last year and just missed a flag......

[Go_Dogs]

Based on prostats:

Boyd - 30 disposals at 83.3% effective, 5 turnovers

Griffen 27 - at 59.3% - 11 turnovers

The Champion Data stats credit Griff with 81% efficiency and Boyd 67%.

Griff had 19 kicks, 8 handballs and Boyd 18 kicks, 15 handballs.

Interesting discrepancy between the two set of stats :confused:

[bornadog]

The Champion Data stats credit Griff with 81% efficiency and Boyd 67%.

Griff had 19 kicks, 8 handballs and Boyd 18 kicks, 15 handballs.

Interesting discrepancy between the two set of stats :confused:

you had me worried so I went back and checked again, and that is what they are showing.

[Dry Rot]

Yeah look I have whinged about our draw before but this one was our fault entirely, I think the $ we gained from selling our home game to Canberra has equated to a cost of four points.

Really? How do you explain our recent wins there then?

[mjp]

I suspect the MC went to him because they are desperate to fix our foward line and he at least brings (or was meant to) forward pressure. He's not ready, but our forward line is filled with not quite readies ATM.

What forward pressure...everyone keeps saying this but based on WHAT evidence?

If it is because he is an indigenous kid who plays forward and the stereotype says he should therefore provide great forward pressure, well....

[comrade]

What forward pressure...everyone keeps saying this but based on WHAT evidence?

If it is because he is an indigenous kid who plays forward and the stereotype says he should therefore provide great forward pressure, well....

Every Williamstown match review from WOOFers has mentioned his tackling/pressure in the forward line as a stand out of his game.

I think alluding to racial profiling is a bit of a stretch just because he didn't really show off his defensive pressure in his limited 20 minutes of game time.

[mjp]

Every Williamstown match review from WOOFers has mentioned his tackling/pressure in the forward line as a stand out of his game.


I have now seen him play twice:

- vs Sydney.
- vs Swan Districts.

Zero forward pressure. That is the only sample I have comrade and I only comment based on what I see and not on what I have been told.

[Desipura]

Where are we at? I think we are in big strife if Hall, Higgins, Williams and to a lesser extent Lake (due to form/fitness) are not playing.

[Mantis]

Where are we at? I think we are in big strife if Hall, Higgins, Williams and to a lesser extent Lake (due to form/fitness) are not playing.

I would think that if you take the CHB, FB, FF & talented HF out of most sides you would see them struggle... especially when your FB & FF are AA players.

[Desipura]

I would think that if you take the CHB, FB, FF & talented HF out of most sides you would see them struggle... especially when your FB & FF are AA players.
On current form Lake is not an AA player, and Hall is possibly playing his last season at AFL level we need to be able to cover him.

[Maddog37]

I am seeing this weekend more and more as make or break.

[Topdog]

On current form Lake is not an AA player, and Hall is possibly playing his last season at AFL level we need to be able to cover him.

Current form? he has played 3(4?) games and been injured for all of them.

When I think of a player that is missing I think of what their ability provides us and Lake's ability is to be the best FB in the comp.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Current form? he has played 3(4?) games and been injured for all of them.

When I think of a player that is missing I think of what their ability provides us and Lake's ability is to be the best FB in the comp.

I would think that the double A rating refers to 2010 when both Hall and Lake where starring and very instrumental in us making the preliminary final. This year has been vastly different with both players struggling with injuries.

[LostDoggy]

On current form Lake is not an AA player, and Hall is possibly playing his last season at AFL level we need to be able to cover him.

But that's just the point — his form is affected by fitness and attitude, not by his ability.

We need to be able to cover Hall, yes, but we simply can't just yet — that's why we have Hall in the first place, if you recall — and expecting Jones to match an 80-goal-a-year experienced forward is just too much pressure on the kid. Next year, you'd expect a lot more out of Grant, a hell of a lot more out of Higgins and a decent improvement from Jones, Skinner, etc. Next year, if/when Hall's gone. Pushing them too fast isn't going to prevent them stumbling, in fact, it'll have the opposite effect.

If we can't cover him, chop up the game plan, and that's what's not happening, so from what I see of the previous posts, the point being made is that with two players who were only 6 months ago AA's, now playing far below that level, and the team structure still based around having them at that level, any team would struggle, and I agree with this. I don't think it's the sole reason, but definitely a factor.

[Topdog]

I would think that the double A rating refers to 2010 when both Hall and Lake where starring and very instrumental in us making the preliminary final. This year has been vastly different with both players struggling with injuries.

Yes and that is one of the reasons we are struggling this year. Hall may not be able to reproduce that form but Lake certainly isn't in the too old basket.

[LostDoggy]

Really? How do you explain our recent wins there then?

Really pointless comment Rot. I was talking about Saturdays game.

[Ghost Dog]

I am seeing this weekend more and more as make or break.

I guess I choose to see it like the stock market.
There are dips that worry you, but the long term trend is upward
We have a far better list than last year ( when fit )
Agreed?

A better TEAM or not remains to be proven
lost alot of experience last season.

McClure's comments on 360 were interesting
If true, maybe the old guard have to be prepared to suffer through
the learning curve of the new brigade.

[Mantis]

I guess I choose to see it like the stock market.
There are dips that worry you, but the long term trend is upward
We have a far better list than last year ( when fit )
Agreed?



What is this assumption based on? Names?

[Ghost Dog]

What is this assumption based on? Names?

Stay positive Mantis, we're all feeling the slow start.

Age, relating to fitness, relating to speed, relating to options in the foward line.
Better Depth in the backline, more height around the ground, more options in the midfield, small attacking players ( sherman, vez )
some more players with a bit of pep ( sherman again, possibly schofield ) and so on.

Still, yet to show it at full swing but we'll get there. Have some faith

[BulldogBelle]

Ah come'on ! Stay positive Mantis, ya poor Doggies fan. ^_^
Based on a lot of things and you know very well what they are.

Age, relating to fitness, relating to speed, relating to options in the foward line.
Better Depth in the backline, more height around the ground, more options in the midfield, crumbers ( sherman )
some more players with a bit of pep ( sherman, possibly schofield ) and so on.



Johnson, Hahn and Eagleton - all gone in 2011...all 3 only had patchy on field impact last season. Although their on and off field leadership is a massive loss.

Lake, Hall, Hargave, Wood, Cooney, Higgins- all injured or playing underdone from preseason injuries in large parts of 2011. Apart from Wood, these 5 guys are easily in our top or most important 10 players.

Gilbee, Hudson- declining footballers unfortunately

Harbrow- gone with the wind, and also did a significant amount of run from the backline. Playing Murphy in his place has robbed Peter to pay Paul.

Feel free to add to this list

So the turnover through injury, retirements, playing underdone, trading and decline has affected >10 of our better players.

We have lost 2 games (Sydney and Fremantle) which could have gone either way...we were close to Collingwood until midway through the 3rd quarter, and against Essendon we didnt turn up.

The glass is half full...and will start filling up even more shortly...

[Mantis]

Stay positive Mantis, we're all feeling the slow start.

Age, relating to fitness, relating to speed, relating to options in the foward line.
Better Depth in the backline, more height around the ground, more options in the midfield, small attacking players ( sherman, vez )
some more players with a bit of pep ( sherman again, possibly schofield ) and so on.

Still, yet to show it at full swing but we'll get there. Have some faith

That doesn't make any sense at all.

We are seeing a big decline in form from many of our mature aged players (28+ yo)

We have seen minimal improvement (if any) from our younger players.

Our recruits have made minimal impact thus far.

---

I am of a firm belief that we will improve as the season unfolds, but to say we have a better list than last year just isn't correct at this point in time.

[DOG GOD]

I agree with Mantis. We can blame injury until the cows come home, but the facts are that our leadership group aren't playing to potential and the young guys who have played a few years havent gone to the next level...YET.

I also believe that we will see some sort of improvement as the year progresses, but in reality, if we lose our next 4, it wont matter what happens in the last half. We would be lucky to make the 8.

[Ghost Dog]

That doesn't make any sense at all.

We are seeing a big decline in form from many of our mature aged players (28+ yo)

We have seen minimal improvement (if any) from our younger players.

Our recruits have made minimal impact thus far.

---

I am of a firm belief that we will improve as the season unfolds, but to say we have a better list than last year just isn't correct at this point in time.

Last year's side was a topped up list designed to get us over the line.
Our recruits, realistically, will take time to develop. But as a side they have achieved about as much as last year's did.

[Topdog]

Last year's side was a topped up list designed to get us over the line.
Our recruits, realistically, will take time to develop. But as a side they have achieved about as much as last year's did.

We went 2-4 last year.

[Mantis]

We went 2-4 last year.

We actually started off 3-3 and even though we won our next 3 after that we were still 6-5 after 11 rounds.

[LostDoggy]

Where are we at?
What result has the "Sub Rule" had on the team this year? I remember last year when rotations were the main talking point, I hoped that nothing would change interchange wise since the Dogs were a heavy rotation team. When the Sub was introduced I though it would be an issue, the midfield seemed to rely on it's bench to run (or pace) out a game. Do you guys think the Dogs and/or Rocket is struggling to adapt to this change?

[LostDoggy]

Where are we at?


We're back ..... :cool:

[Bumper Bulldogs]

We're back ..... :cool:

Bugger you beat me to it. The upside is we still have the most improvement left out of all the sides. Hall, Higgins, Lake, Williams, Wood will be walk up starts in most sides with in the 8.

Add to this a fit Cooney, Hargrave, Morris and things are on the way up.

[Ghost Dog]

Gilbee in the fw line. Absolute Genius from Rocket. Maximize his strengths and minimize discrepancies.. Well done Lindsay. So happy for him and great work Rocket.

"It's good to play up forward and instead of chasing backsides they got to chase my backside a bit.

[mjp]

Gilbee in the fw line. Absolute Genius from Rocket. Maximize his strengths and minimize discrepancies.. Well done Lindsay. So happy for him and great work Rocket.

He played forward against Freo a couple of weeks back...or at least started there.

Why is it genius today yet unworthy of mention on ANZAC Day? I am happy for both Gilbee and Eade as well, but this is the same tactic that was tried without success only two games back.

[Ghost Dog]

He played forward against Freo a couple of weeks back...or at least started there.

Why is it genius today yet unworthy of mention on ANZAC Day? I am happy for both Gilbee and Eade as well, but this is the same tactic that was tried without success only two games back.

He kicked 6 goals. That's why.
Some things just take a while to bear fruit.