Round #10 Match Committee

[GVGjr]

If you were on the Match Committee who would the likely ins and outs for the round 10 home game against the in form Hawks side next Sunday evening.

[Rocco Jones]

IN: Hall, Wallis, Hill, Cooney (if fit)

OUT: Hudson, Grant, Moles, Stack (if Cooney's not right)

I really don't want to drop Grant because I think his speed and ability to apply forward pressure is massively important to use but he just doesn't have enough influence due to his work rate/tank and he needs the lesson.

I think we need to learn how to play without Hudson and Minson. The part time ruckman might look ugly whoever it is but we need to give it time rather than doing it once every two months and wondering why we struggle with it.

[Go_Dogs]

In: Dahlhaus (elevated), Hall

Out: Gilbee/Higgins, Grant

[GVGjr]

IN: Hall, Wallis, Hill, Cooney (if fit)

OUT: Hudson, Grant, Moles, Stack (if Cooney's not right)



I was told by a good source on Friday that Cooney will only miss a week but given his form it's not necessarily a good in for us as it would normally be.

[JohnGentStand]

In - Hall, Cooney, Lake ( yes Lake MUST play)

Out - all passengers just get off now

Grant, Gia, Higgins would be a good start...Hudson , I know you try but....

I would be happy to see 5 - 8 changes this week.
Probably too annoyed to be analytical right now but a sharp axe needs to swing from the match commitee this week. I know West Coast are a decent team. I know we are out of touch. BUT JESUS H. CHRIST THAT WAS 20 GOALS !!!!

[G-Mo77]

Is there a limit on how many players you can drop in one week? I could easily pull 10 names from the team today.

Sadly we'll hear the same excuses all week, not good enough, players not following directions etc.

Then they'll drop Libba, Stack and Moles and bring in Hall, Lake and Cooney or something similar.

[LostDoggy]

At this early stage , I,d say swap Higgins for Djerrkura and slot him in the FP , Wood can be swapped for Mulligan to play as a second CHB , Hargrave and Gia can go to the bench , Moles can get a bench seat , Hill brought back as the Sub

Hall did have a good hit out for Williamstown but needs another week , I would'nt want to bring him back too soon

so OUT : Higgins, Wood In : Djerrkura, Mulligan , Hill as the Sub

bench Hargrave, Giansiracusa , Moles Sub - Hill

.

[JohnGentStand]

Hall did have a good hit out for Williamstown but needs another week , I would'nt want to bring him back too soon
.

too soon ???
as opposed to Wood & Higgins ?
just get him in.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Can Johno come back, at least on the training track and install a little bit of pride?

[LostDoggy]

I've had it with Williams. A great athlete, but so was Daniel Bandy.
Stack does not have clean enough hands. Fumbles constantly.
Higgins believes his own haircut. He is not that good.

One of the key problems is CHF. We need someone to crash packs and cause a contest there. I was laughed at heartily by posters here for saying we should have gone after Lynch last year, who plays that sort of role. How they laughed.

Out: Williams, Stack, Moles
In: Harris, Hahn, Wallis

[comrade]

One of the key problems is CHF. We need someone to crash packs and cause a contest there. I was laughed at heartily by posters here for saying we should have gone after Lynch last year, who plays that sort of role. How they laughed.


While I can't recall your post about drafting Lynch and I'm not a fan of retrospective gloating but Lynch would certainly help out with our second ruck situation.

[LostDoggy]

I think bring in Williams, Wood and Higgins was a mistake. None of them really liked upto it today. Everyone should have to have at least 1 run at Willy!!!

Hall in for Grant or Jones
Wallis for Stack
Mulligan / Lake in for Williams / Markovich

Huddo is no good against 2 mobile ruckman - but the hawks don't really have them so he should stay in..

[LostDoggy]

While I can't recall your post about drafting Lynch and I'm not a fan of retrospective gloating but Lynch would certainly help out with our second ruck situation.

Its not a gloat my friend, who can in these circumstances, but a lament. The deeper issue is tactics I think - on paper we have a better list than that mob but we lost by 100+ points.

[LostDoggy]

Maybe we ned to take a similar approach to Richmond and dont select players who will not be there in 2-3 years.

[Before I Die]

I don't think it is about the players so much as it is about the game plan. I don't want Eade sacked, but I do want him to adopt a different approach. In the game as it is being played today, it is a case of swarm or be swamped. A forward line containing Kennedy, Lynch, Darling and one of Cox or Natanui was able to continually cause turnovers. Not because they ran players down, but because they were disciplined and supported by midfield runners.

Anyway,

In: Hall, Cooney (if fit), Dahlhaus (if promoted)

Out: Grant, Stack, ????

[comrade]

Anyway,

In: Hall, Cooney (if fit), Dahlhaus (if promoted)

Out: Grant, Stack, ????

Dropping those two is a short term view. I think we need to look long term now.

Yep, Grant barely got a sniff but how many times was the ball in the forward line? Also, Stack was ok and kicked a very nice goal after a strong tackle. His burst runs opened WC up a few times, too.

[Rocco Jones]

Dropping those two is a short term view. I think we need to look long term now.

Yep, Grant barely got a sniff but how many times was the ball in the forward line? Also, Stack was ok and kicked a very nice goal after a strong tackle. His burst runs opened WC up a few times, too.

I can see the idea of being patient with Stack but not Grant.

You mention the short term vs long term view. I think it's the opposite with Grant. Short term he adds best 22 value but I think he needs a 'lesson'. Of course that's only on the outside looking in but I think it would be a good long term view type decision to show him that his spot is guaranteed.

[comrade]

I can see the idea of being patient with Stack but not Grant.

You mention the short term vs long term view. I think it's the opposite with Grant. Short term he adds best 22 value but I think he needs a 'lesson'. Of course that's only on the outside looking in but I think it would be a good long term view type decision to show him that his spot is guaranteed.

Possibly, but if it's just to fit Hall in, the I don't agree. If he's not following team rules or working hard enough, then he's certainly not on his own.

[Before I Die]

Dropping those two is a short term view. I think we need to look long term now.

Yep, Grant barely got a sniff but how many times was the ball in the forward line? Also, Stack was ok and kicked a very nice goal after a strong tackle. His burst runs opened WC up a few times, too.

Dropping Grant and Stack had more to do with the bringing Hall and Cooney in than anything else. In reality, unless we address the game plan we are sinply moving deck chairs on the Titanic.

[Pickenitup]

In Hall Lake Cooney Addison
Out Stack Hudson Moles Grant.
Williams to be Our 2nd Ruckman against Roughead have to try something

[Jasper]

Dropping those two is a short term view. I think we need to look long term now.

Yep, Grant barely got a sniff but how many times was the ball in the forward line? Also, Stack was ok and kicked a very nice goal after a strong tackle. His burst runs opened WC up a few times, too.

I'll tell you why I don't like the stack brand of football

1 - He doesn't commit himself to getting the hard ball

and believe it or not I could handle point 1, this if it wasn't for point 2

2 - Stack is not a great user of the ball, nor is he a great decision maker under pressure.

Having said that:

Ins

Hall, Cooney (if fit enough to at least nail half his kicks...), Lake (if he is fit enough mentally and physically to play to team instruction, or perhaps he could set himself to play on Buddy in the forward 60 - Buddy's range)

Outs

Take your pick, but Higgins and Grant must be near the top of the list for various reasons.

[SlimPickens]

Is there a limit on how many players you can drop in one week? I could easily pull 10 names from the team today.

Sadly we'll hear the same excuses all week, not good enough, players not following directions etc.

Then they'll drop Libba, Stack and Moles and bring in Hall, Lake and Cooney or something similar.

Spot on.

[GVGjr]

There would be a valid argument to drop 8 players on tonight's effort but I think it's going to be more around shuffling some of the players around.
I would certainly look at moving Cross to the half forward line and utilising his marking strength rather than having him in the midfield.

In Hall, Cooney and Hill
Out Grant, Higgins and Stack

Not sure what we should do about Hudson

[Ghost Dog]

Cross at Half fwd...gulp. um..er... the lengthy debate that followed the last time someone wheeled that idea out could have filled a few yellow pages. pace? kicking ability?
Hell, I'd give it a go, but show me another player like that in any half fwd in the comp.

[boydogs]

I'm not seeing any inspiring in's. Hall, Lake & Cooney could probably do with another week, and some of the recent in's like Williams & Wood probably need more time to adjust.

What I would do is send the same 22 back out again with the instruction that if they can't do any better, then they will be dropped and traded/delisted at the end of the year.

[bornadog]

Is there a limit on how many players you can drop in one week? I could easily pull 10 names from the team today.

Sadly we'll hear the same excuses all week, not good enough, players not following directions etc.

Then they'll drop Libba, Stack and Moles and bring in Hall, Lake and Cooney or something similar.

Well what would you do if you were the MC?

[G-Mo77]

Well what would you do if you were the MC?

Drop players who are not and have not been performing. Take your pick today, there are lots of them. The last time the axe was suppose to have swung they dropped Skinner and Wallis. OK we won with those changes but we're back here again after another very bad loss and things are not getting any better.

Here is a list of who I think should be under the pump and who the possible replacements should be. I doubt that many changes will take place and it will probably be just Hall, Lake and Cooney. I'll condense it a little more as the week progresses.

Possible Outs:
Higgins
Gilbee
Giansiracusa
Williams
Grant

Possible Ins:
Hall
Lake
Cooney
Wallis
Addison
Hill
Schofield
Mulligan

[SquirrelGrip]

To that I'll add:


Drop players who are not and have not been performing. Take your pick today, there are lots of them. The last time the axe was suppose to have swung they dropped Skinner and Wallis. OK we won with those changes but we're back here again after another very bad loss and things are not getting any better.

Here is a list of who I think should be under the pump and who the possible replacements should be. I doubt that many changes will take place and it will probably be just Hall, Lake and Cooney. I'll condense it a little more as the week progresses.

Possible Outs:
Higgins
Gilbee
Giansiracusa
Williams
Grant
Hudson

Possible Ins:
Hall
Lake
Cooney
Wallis
Addison
Hill
Schofield
Mulligan

Cordy
Howard

[Mofra]

I really don't want to drop Grant because I think his speed and ability to apply forward pressure is massively important to use but he just doesn't have enough influence due to his work rate/tank and he needs the lesson.
Grant has been terrible over the past few weeks and needs a spell - he bobs up for the odd goal with pace.
Stack actually looked ok in parts yesterday as a forward - wasn't our worst.

At this stage
Out: Higgins, Grant, Hudson (Hawks play part time rucks - we can get away with one ruck this game)
In: Addison, Wallis, Schofield

Cooney may need more time, Hall is the biggest downhill skiier on our list and provides zero defensive pressure, and Lake was terrible by all accounts, no none of them come back.

Wallis runs his heart out & is the future of this club, Addison gives 100% and Schofield is patently unsociable on the field and god we need that right now. Roll the dice with Tommy getting first crack at Buddy and Markovic takes Roughy. Markovic/Jones will have to pintch hit in the ruck which is a gamble.
Gilbee is very lucky to hold his spot - possible out for Dalhaus if we decide to elevate the kid.

[Mofra]

Cross at Half fwd...gulp. um..er... the lengthy debate that followed the last time someone wheeled that idea out could have filled a few yellow pages. pace? kicking ability?
Hell, I'd give it a go, but show me another player like that in any half fwd in the comp.
He has workrate and will just keep presenting all the time and is decent overhead.
Our workrate forward has been terrible (Gia & Jones aside) so this solves a need and give us the chance to bring in another inside mid - Addison gets a run simply because he's a complete prick on the field.

[Mantis]

He has workrate and will just keep presenting all the time and is decent overhead.
Our workrate forward has been terrible (Gia & Jones aside) so this solves a need and give us the chance to bring in another inside mid - Addison gets a run simply because he's a complete prick on the field.

To play where?

[Ozza]

If we assume nobody out of the game is injured;

Outs: Grant, Cross, Hudson; Markovic
Ins: Hall; Wallis; Lake; Cooney

[bulldogsthru&thru]

IN:

Hall, Cooney, Cordy, Hooper, Addison, Lake, Wallis

Out:

Grant, Stack, Minson, Gilbee, Williams, Gia, Moles


The problem is with our intensity and desire. Only Boyd, Cross, Picken, Ward, Morris, Griffen (this year) and Libba (still early goings with him) bring the intensity and consistency in effort every week. Thats 6 or 7 players out of 22 who can actually be relied on. The rest are either passengers or are so inconsistent they may as well be dropped every 2nd week

[comrade]

Minson omitted yet Hudson stays?

If the MC does this, they've lost the plot.

[Mantis]

I reckon there's at least 15 different names listed as possible ins yet not once have I seen Djerrkura's name.... Why not?

We traded for this guy, gave him a long term contract, but as it seems isn't in anyone's plans... What gives?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Minson is way too inconsistent. He can barely run. His days as a footballer are numbered unless he can turn into a forward and we have Cordy and Roughy to take over the ruck once Hudson is done.
Hudson gives us experience in the ruck and finds the right place to be in the midfield. Throw Cordy/Roughhead in with him and we develop our future ruck tandem.

[ReLoad]

I think we need to take a more structured look at the ins and outs this week, and I am a HUGE believer in giving people a job on the field.

As such I think its important that we do that with the changes this week:

First out: Grant, needs a spell. Simply not consistent enough.
First In: Barry hall. The hawks backline is shot to bits, and nobody has the strength to go with Baz.

Second Out: Hudson, Not only was he completely dominated, he isn’t the future of the club anymore.
Second In: (would have been roughy but he’s stuffed now): Cordy, Its time to take a look, some players can immediately respond when given a chance, and things couldn’t get any worse. We have done it before, where we have given a kid a game, and said we know you are not ready, but this is your opportunity to get a taste and to see the level which you need to play at. I think the benefits of playing him and the learning experience far outweigh the negatives.

Third Out: Higgins, Not fit, not mentally switched on enough, ZERO defensive effort in his game play.
Third In: Addison, Personally he isn’t in our best 22, but I think if we give him a job to do, then he’s our man. I say Let him sit on Jordan Lewis’s head all day and piss him off so badly we get some free’s

Fourth Out: Moles, As a sub which he is being used, its just not working, isn’t versatile enough IMHO
Fourth In: Elevate and bring in Dollhouse, This will allow Gilbee to play more forward, where he is better suited now that he doesn’t have his old bag of tricks anymore.

Fifth Out: Wood, needs game time at Willy, looked totally at sea last night, given he was supposed to be a half back flanker and the ball was in there 90% of the time, he was lost.
Fifth in: Schofield, Again another player we can put on a mission, go and terrorise Burgoyne, and rip him a new one.

apologies to Wallis who needs to come in, but he'll come in at the expense of cross who has earnt enough tickets to have one more go at it, and i could NEVER question his heart or spirit.

No lake, he is still stuck on the same game of mental sudoku that he has been playing for a month, i would expect him to take another 4-6 weeks until he figures it out.

Cooney's knee is busted.

DJ wasnt good enough at the cats and has done nothgin to show he will be at the dogs yet.

Vespa, put in a good show at willi for 2 weeks and you are in.

Hill, Without a job for him on the field he is in no mans land, and i cant see a match up agaisntt he hawks that works.

[The Underdog]

I reckon there's at least 15 different names listed as possible ins yet not once have I seen Djerrkura's name.... Why not?

We traded for this guy, gave him a long term contract, but as it seems isn't in anyone's plans... What gives?

He hasn't exactly inspired any rampant advocacy based on performance. He hasn't really helped supply forward pressure. If he's not doing that, I'm not sure what he supplies. Might get a shot just on a wholesale change basis though.

[The Pie Man]

He hasn't exactly inspired any rampant advocacy based on performance. He hasn't really helped supply forward pressure. If he's not doing that, I'm not sure what he supplies. Might get a shot just on a wholesale change basis though.

He was serviceable as a sub vs Brisbane, but un-seen since. From reports, he hasn't set the world on fire at VFL level, but maybe he does need a prolonged stint to prove his worth.

I think Barlow would be worth a punt this week.

[Sedat]

Cross at Half fwd...gulp. um..er... the lengthy debate that followed the last time someone wheeled that idea out could have filled a few yellow pages. pace? kicking ability?
Hell, I'd give it a go, but show me another player like that in any half fwd in the comp.
St Kilda nearly made such luminaries as McQualter and Eddy into 2-time premiership players.

[bornadog]

I don't understand the call for Gia to be dropped. The ball was hardly in our forward 50 and when it was he was involved in most goals (the little we kicked). He kicked one himself and directly assisted another 3.

[Dazza]

Would like to see Schofield and Dalhous make their debuts. Both have pace and desire for the contest. We could trial Picken up forward if this were to happen.

I'd take out cross and Gilbee/Higgins. Love crossy but I think his value has become very limited now that we have other good extractors around him. Either play him in the guts where he's useful or don't play him at all. Gilbee and Higgins have the same problem. Pace.

[G-Mo77]

To that I'll add:
Possible Outs:
Hudson

Possible Ins:
Cordy
Howard


Yeah Hudson as well but I think he's safe because of the Roughead injury and I still don't think Cordy is ready yet.

As for Howard I just simply forgot. :o


I don't understand the call for Gia to be dropped. The ball was hardly in our forward 50 and when it was he was involved in most goals (the little we kicked). He kicked one himself and directly assisted another 3.

Really? I thought he was very poor. I usually defend Gia but I thought his game was ordinary. There were a few cameo plays but nowhere near good enough. Looked very slow, couldn't hold his feet and applied no pressure at all. This is a senior player who is in the leadership group.

[LostDoggy]

I don't understand the call for Gia to be dropped. The ball was hardly in our forward 50 and when it was he was involved in most goals (the little we kicked). He kicked one himself and directly assisted another 3.

Easier to name a scapegoat then question a number of others. He was one of better ones of a bad lot.

[bornadog]

Really? I thought he was very poor. I usually defend Gia but I thought his game was ordinary. There were a few cameo plays but nowhere near good enough. Looked very slow, couldn't hold his feet and applied no pressure at all. This is a senior player who is in the leadership group.

Where did Gia play? The forward line. How many forward enetries were there - 31, very poor. How many goals did we kick =8. Gia involved in 4.

as Chops says Scapegoat.
I tell you who was very very poor. MURPHY, GILBEE, HIGGINS, WILLIAMS, all senior players that should know better. Add to that WARD who played a cracker last week and couldn't get his hands on the ball. Many more as well but really talking about the players who had less than 10 possessions and have played more than 50 games. (ok Ward is at 46)

[G-Mo77]

as Chops says Scapegoat.

That's pathetic on your behalf. Go through so of my posts and see that I always defend him. Yeah I'm just scapegoating him. :rolleyes:


I tell you who was very very poor. MURPHY, GILBEE, HIGGINS, WILLIAMS, all senior players that should know better.

And if you bothered to read my post earlier I did name 3 of those 4. Yeah, you know what I'm just naming a scape goat. :rolleyes:

Pull your head out of you arse!

[bornadog]

That's pathetic on your behalf. Go through so of my posts and see that I always defend him. Yeah I'm just scapegoating him. :rolleyes:



And if you bothered to read my post earlier I did name 3 of those 4. Yeah, you know what I'm just naming a scape goat. :rolleyes:

Pull your head out of you arse!

is that necessary:mad:

[Greystache]

That's pathetic on your behalf. Go through so of my posts and see that I always defend him. Yeah I'm just scapegoating him. :rolleyes:



And if you bothered to read my post earlier I did name 3 of those 4. Yeah, you know what I'm just naming a scape goat. :rolleyes:

Pull your head out of you arse!

It's just a cut and paste from every MC thread after a loss, better to just ignore him than give him the argument he wants.

[G-Mo77]

is that necessary:mad:

Yep, you want to accuse me of something without backing it up it seems like a fair comment.

[LostDoggy]

Can we PLEASE stop eating our own !

[Murphy'sLore]

Settle down boys, we're all hurting, let's not turn on each other.

God, if we can't keep it together imagine what it must be like in the rooms.

[Mofra]

To play where?
Inside mid role - move Cross to the HF line so we have someone who will simply present all day.
WCE simply walked out with the ball too many times at centre contests. Hawks may still win it with Addison there, but at least they'll limp out.

[westbulldog]

We cannot do any worse........

Outs
Higgins (no defensive pressure, beginning to think he is overrated)
Grant (no defensive pressure)
Hudson (6 frees against for starters)
Gianciracusa (no defensive pressure)
Williams (see Kennedy's stats)
Stack (seemed to run around in ever decreasing circles)

Ins
Lake
Hall
Schofield
Addison
Wallis
Mulligan

[bornadog]

Yep, you want to accuse me of something without backing it up it seems like a fair comment.

It was a general comment about the way our so called fans like to pick on Gia and not other players, and perhaps an over reaction to that from me. But your comment doesnot belong in this forum, or any forum and is totally not called for. If you think its a fair comment its best you post on BF if it stills exists beacuse its probably in total melt down by now.

[bornadog]

It's just a cut and paste from every MC thread after a loss, better to just ignore him than give him the argument he wants.

Not sure what you mean by that comment.

[EasternWest]

Where did Gia play? The forward line. How many forward enetries were there - 31, very poor. How many goals did we kick =8. Gia involved in 4.

as Chops says Scapegoat.
I tell you who was very very poor. MURPHY, GILBEE, HIGGINS, WILLIAMS, all senior players that should know better. Add to that WARD who played a cracker last week and couldn't get his hands on the ball. Many more as well but really talking about the players who had less than 10 possessions and have played more than 50 games. (ok Ward is at 46)

Murphy's been good this year. In his case, I think it'd be better off to say he played poorly in this game and move on. Not so much credits in the bank for him, more that the Eagles game was an aberration and put it behind.


Easier to name a scapegoat then question a number of others. He was one of better ones of a bad lot.

This is pretty much a standard thing for you to say when others are giving their opinion.

I'm not saying that you're right or wrong in that he's used as a scapegoat, but I'm more interested in hearing what people think as to who the changes should be.

That's yourself included Chops. On this occasion, I'm not having a go at you for saying what a lot of posters think re: scapegoating, but I'd be very interested to hear what changes you think should be made.

[Mantis]

Inside mid role - move Cross to the HF line so we have someone who will simply present all day.
WCE simply walked out with the ball too many times at centre contests. Hawks may still win it with Addison there, but at least they'll limp out.

Wouldn't Reid be a better option for this role?? Addison has never shown the ability to play this role, Reid has... well atleast a little.

[Greystache]

Not sure what you mean by that comment.

The scapegoat comment, it's boring, repetitive, and adds nothing. We have 25 scapegoats on our list according to Chops.

[Ghost Dog]

He has workrate and will just keep presenting all the time and is decent overhead.
Our workrate forward has been terrible (Gia & Jones aside) so this solves a need and give us the chance to bring in another inside mid - Addison gets a run simply because he's a complete prick on the field.

Sure then. Go for it. It's the kind of swap we need. Something new. I just have my doubts about Cross's ability to lock it into the 50 owing to pace. But he just might prove me wrong.

[bornadog]

Murphy's been good this year. In his case, I think it'd be better off to say he played poorly in this game and move on. Not so much credits in the bank for him, more that the Eagles game was an aberration and put it behind.

.

Murphy would almost be leading out B&F this year and hope it was just an abberration, hope the whole team performance was.

[bornadog]

The scapegoat comment, it's boring, repetitive, and adds nothing. We have 25 scapegoats on our list according to Chops.

The thing is there are two players that posters and fans pick on every week. Gia and Stack and maybe they deserve it or maybe not. The thing is why do people pick on the same players when others also play poorly?

Everyone was calling for Wood to play and replace Stack. He did replace Stack in the backline but did no better, yet no one calls for his head. Yes boring repetitive and adds nothing, but so does calling for the head of the same players week after week, especially when its not called for.

Anyway, as you say I am bored with this subject:D

[Bulldog Joe]

Really? I thought he was very poor. I usually defend Gia but I thought his game was ordinary. There were a few cameo plays but nowhere near good enough. Looked very slow, couldn't hold his feet and applied no pressure at all. This is a senior player who is in the leadership group.

Gia was a lot closer to doing his job than most.

Pretty hard for him when the ball did not get into his area and we had Higgins providing less than nothing.

I fear Higgins has OP and needs to be sent away for the best possible treatment and rehab. Looks LTI from my observation.

[Greystache]

The thing is there are two players that posters and fans pick on every week. Gia and Stack and maybe they deserve it or maybe not. The thing is why do people pick on the same players when others also play poorly?

Everyone was calling for Wood to play and replace Stack. He did replace Stack in the backline but did no better, yet no one calls for his head. Yes boring repetitive and adds nothing, but so does calling for the head of the same players week after week, especially when its not called for.

Anyway, as you say I am bored with this subject:D

At least the discussion of player omissions is football related, and can be avoided by skipping the ins and outs type of thread. The boring scapegoat rubbish is posted in nearly every thread, there's no way to avoid it.

But as you suggest we'll move on. ;)

[Hotdog60]

I find it a bit hard with the ins and outs this week, I think the heat needs to be placed on the players for some more consistent performances if the season is already shot do we need to look for some stability with the side. I would like to see Luke Dahlhaus play in the very near future as he looks exciting every-time he gets near the ball.
Rocket needs to place onus on the players that if their performance doesn't improve over the next 3 or 4 weeks they will be sent to Williamstown, with the leaders not being exempt and make them fully aware that this can happen regardless of who you are in the team.
Looking at this week and Hawthorn with some major big men injuries do we need to exploit this so I wouldn't touch our rucks. I would consider Cooney, Hall, Veszpremi and Lake.

Who goes out?

I'm not sure as a lot of players were down, Grant as maybe a week or two back may help him get the hunger back and Higgins to find some form. Moles for Cooney and Markovic for Lake.

Buddy is the main threat and if he wants to wrestle then Lake takes him, if he's leading Williams.

That's 4 changes but maybe it should only be 2.

[BulldogBelle]

Stoppages
Our work at stoppages was woeful on the weekend, and far to many times, we got suckered into having several players trying to extract the ball, only to be beaten by West Coast, who spead far wider, and far quicker than us...

Workrate
Comes down to workrate of the mids, and their ability to know when and where to run...

WC ran back like crazy to defend everytime the ball looked like going into our F50

As soon as there was a stoppage near the centre line or on our HFF line, West Coast simply flooded, and then won the clearances in the same way I mentioned above

We look a lot better with Addison and Picken playing as defensive forwards

Some of the players who are in the crosshairs this week...

Hudson - how many free kicks did he give away? How many ruck contests did he win?
Grant - How many tackles did he land? Hw many marks did he get? Workrate?
Cross- What % of his disposals were effective?
Stack- I closed my eyes and hope for the best when he had the ball on Sunday...
Higgins- Is he fit? Ready?

The list goes on...

[BulldogBelle]

I find it a bit hard with the ins and outs this week, I think the heat needs to be placed on the players for some more consistent performances if the season is already shot do we need to look for some stability with the side. I would like to see Luke Dahlhaus play in the very near future as he looks exciting every-time he gets near the ball.
Rocket needs to place onus on the players that if their performance doesn't improve over the next 3 or 4 weeks they will be sent to Williamstown, with the leaders not being exempt and make them fully aware that this can happen regardless of who you are in the team.
Looking at this week and Hawthorn with some major big men injuries do we need to exploit this so I wouldn't touch our rucks. I would consider Cooney, Hall, Veszpremi and Lake.

Who goes out?

I'm not sure as a lot of players were down, Grant as maybe a week or two back may help him get the hunger back and Higgins to find some form. Moles for Cooney and Markovic for Lake.

Buddy is the main threat and if he wants to wrestle then Lake takes him, if he's leading Williams.
That's 4 changes but maybe it should only be 2.


Brian has lost a few kgs...doubt he still has the strength of last season....And may still be hurting from shoulder/hip whatever injuries he had in the off season

I would play Williams on him

[Hotdog60]

Brian has lost a few kgs...doubt he still has the strength of last season....And may still be hurting from shoulder/hip whatever injuries he had in the off season

I would play Williams on him

Here's one out of left field, what about Wood? Strength might be a issue but he's athletic enough and fast enough but would he be good enough.

[bornadog]

Here's one out of left field, what about Wood? Strength might be a issue but he's athletic enough and fast enough but would he be good enough.

He would conceed 10cm, 18kg and 120 games. Buddy eats guys like Wood for breakfast.

There are only two players that can play on Buddy and that is Lake or Williams. I don't believe Markovic has the smarts, Morris is too short as are the rest of our players. Unfortunatelty Lake is out of sorts, but we may have to bring him in and fire him up. Williams is going to have to find some form quick smart. I really don't like playing Williams at Fullback as he did at the start on Kennedy. He is better off at CHB, and Buddy does tend to roam abit.

[The Pie Man]

Going to take a stab at this

In: Hall, Barlow, Cooney
Out: Grant, Hudson, Higgins

I get lost from there - not exactly an axe swing, but some names amongst them.

I imagine Stack will come under scrutiny (he wasn't our worst)... perhaps for Hill. Moles will need a full game somewhere, as will Howard.

[always right]

I despair when I see Barlow being suggested as an inclusion. Has it really come to this?

Bring Lake in for Buddy and challenge him. I imagine he loves the thought that he has owned Buddy in recent times. See if he rises to the challenge.

Fitness shouldn't be an issue even if Buddy runs up and down the ground. The way Lake plays him is to let someone else take Budy when he pushes up onto the wing, picking him up on his way back.

[G-Mo77]

How can Barlow come in? Has he even been elevated? If so obviously it was for Shaggy wouldn't he be back on there now?

[Mantis]

How can Barlow come in? Has he even been elevated? If so obviously it was for Shaggy wouldn't he be back on there now?

The talk about his promotion has to do with Roughy being injured and possibly moved onto the LTI.

[G-Mo77]

The talk about his promotion has to do with Roughy being injured and possibly moved onto the LTI.

I'd rather promote Doll House if Roughy is LTI.

[The Pie Man]

I despair when I see Barlow being suggested as an inclusion. Has it really come to this?

Bring Lake in for Buddy and challenge him. I imagine he loves the thought that he has owned Buddy in recent times. See if he rises to the challenge.

Fitness shouldn't be an issue even if Buddy runs up and down the ground. The way Lake plays him is to let someone else take Budy when he pushes up onto the wing, picking him up on his way back.

Just in case your reference to the Buddy match-up was related to my Barlow inclusion call, I was more seeing him as a direct replacement for Hudson, playing no. 2 ruck/roaming forward.

And I'll own up to forgetting Barlow would have gone back to being an unavailable rookie with Ryan's return to the team (he was elevated initially though wasn't he?)

But yes, Roughead potentially has a long term injury from the weekend that could see another rookie elevated :o

[The Pie Man]

I'd rather promote Doll House if Roughy is LTI.

He sounds exciting, I wouldn't be unhappy with this (I haven't seen him play)

[DOG GOD]

F: DJ Hall Gia
HF: Ward Jones Sherman
C: Griffen Liberatore Cross
HB: Murphy Williams Hargrave
B: Morris Markovic Schofield
FOLL: Minson Boyd Picken
INT: Wood Walllis Mulligan Gilbee (S)

Ins: DJ, Hall, Wallis, Schofield, Mulligan
Out: Grant, Higgins, Hudson, Stack, Moles

Gia and Cross survive due to their leadership abilities and the fact that the MC would never drop them :)
Lake doesnt get a look in until he gets his act together mentally and physically.
Addison and Hill dont get a look in as Im not a believer of a one week in, next week out revolving door.

[always right]

Just in case your reference to the Buddy match-up was related to my Barlow inclusion call, I was more seeing him as a direct replacement for Hudson, playing no. 2 ruck/roaming forward.And I'll own up to forgetting Barlow would have gone back to being an unavailable rookie with Ryan's return to the team (he was elevated initially though wasn't he?)

But yes, Roughead potentially has a long term injury from the weekend that could see another rookie elevated :o

I wasn't making the link.

if we are going to promote a rookie however, it should be Dalhaus. He potentially provides more of what we need. Not suggesting he is the answer but I'm desperate for anything at the moment.

[LostDoggy]

This is pretty much a standard thing for you to say when others are giving their opinion.

I thought it was pretty much standard to blame Gia or Stack after a loss.


I'm not saying that you're right or wrong in that he's used as a scapegoat, but I'm more interested in hearing what people think as to who the changes should be.

That's yourself included Chops. On this occasion, I'm not having a go at you for saying what a lot of posters think re: scapegoating, but I'd be very interested to hear what changes you think should be made.
You could change all 22 if you want as when you lose by 123 something is wrong thats greater than one or two players, the game plan or the coach individually.
In terms of changes you would have to look those who gave up and/or the biggest offenders in not doing what was asked of them over 4 quarters.
Unless we are on the MC we can't really tell the 2nd part but I suggested and someone else has as well that Gia wasn't the worst with the opportunities he had.

Not sure why he would be one of the first calls to be dropped.
Personally I think Grant is in trouble and maybe Huddo.

[w3design]

I despair when I see Barlow being suggested as an inclusion. Has it really come to this?

Bring Lake in for Buddy and challenge him. I imagine he loves the thought that he has owned Buddy in recent times. See if he rises to the challenge.

Fitness shouldn't be an issue even if Buddy runs up and down the ground. The way Lake plays him is to let someone else take Budy when he pushes up onto the wing, picking him up on his way back.
Was thinking the same. Champions play at their best when they have been challenged. Is Brian a champion? If he has pride and heart you'd think he would be champing at the bit to show the footy world that he is still relevant, still the reigning AA full back, and still the guy who made Buddy look second rate.

[chef]

Out
Hudson
Cross
Stack
Markovic
Grant
Moles
Gilbee

In
Mulligan
Reid
Hill
Hall
Howard
Addison(Djerrkura if DFA is not fit)
Dahlhaus

[G-Mo77]

You sure that's it chef. ;)

[chef]

You sure that's it chef. ;)

I could have kept on going:(.

If we don't make serious changes this week my faith in Rocket will have disappeared, not that that means much.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I would certainly look at moving Cross to the half forward line and utilising his marking strength rather than having him in the midfield.

Not sure what we should do about Hudson

Not sure on this GVGjr, Cross on the 1/2 forward line yes can take a mark but wouldn't hit the score board, I would see Hill as a better option across 1/2 forward but would go with a lock in player.

As for Hudson, I would give the ruck duties to Will and give him a rest with Barlow, Skinner or Roughy coming in, Guess the Everett thing has bitten us once again!

[azabob]

I could have kept on going:(.

If we don't make serious changes this week my faith in Rocket will have disappeared, not that that means much.

What's your theory behind swapping Mulligan for Markovic?

[azabob]

IN - Wallis, Hall, Vespremi, Schofield

OUT - Gilbee, Higgins, Grant, Hudson

[Mantis]

^^^^

Vez goes from Willi 2's into the Dogs team.... I know we were really bad, but is that likely?

[azabob]

^^^^

Vez goes from Willi 2's into the Dogs team.... I know we were really bad, but is that likely?

Probably not likely, but the thread is about what I would look to do.

[LostDoggy]

Very early possible

FB....Picken.........Markovic.........Morris..........
HB......................Murphy.............................
CHB........Mulligan............Williams................
C....Ward..............Boyd........... Griffen.........
HF...Sherman......Minson...........Gilbee..........
F.....Stack............Jones.............Grant..........
Foll......Hudson.....Cross......Liberatore...........

Int..Hargrave...Giansiracusa...Moles...Hill ( Sub )

I did want to bring in Howard but went for extra height with Mulligan, and yes I have named 2 CHB this is to try and create a rebound press , on the kick-in Ward and Griffen drop back to the 40m arc while Mulligan and Williams move up past the 50m arc as tall targets

Stack and Sherman in the forward line gives us more leg speed, as Addison is injured Stack gets a chance as a defensive forward I would have preferred to bring in Djerrkura but he had a quiet game for Williamstown , Moles gets a move onto the bench , Hill had a good hitout for Williamstown and gives us a flexible Sub

.

[1eyedog]

INS: Cooney, Hall, Lake, Vezpremi/Hill, Wallis

OUTS: Higgins, Grant, Gia, Moles, Cross

Sorry Crossy but we are top heavy with slow inside mids and I'd like to play Libba and Wallis.

I would prefer to see what Stack has for the remainder of the year.

[1eyedog]

^^^^

Vez goes from Willi 2's into the Dogs team.... I know we were really bad, but is that likely?

As you know he's only there because he's coming back from a pretty serious tendon injury. Prior to his injury the coaching staff stated he was knocking on the door.

[chef]

What's your theory behind swapping Mulligan for Markovic?

Markovic is struggling a bit and Mulligan has been in the bests a few times over the last few weeks and according to some at the club was close to selection. I would like to see what he has to offer as a full back before Lake is ready as he is in the last year of his contract.

[BulldogBelle]

Not sure on this GVGjr, Cross on the 1/2 forward line yes can take a mark but wouldn't hit the score board, I would see Hill as a better option across 1/2 forward but would go with a lock in player.

As for Hudson, I would give the ruck duties to Will and give him a rest with Barlow, Skinner or Roughy coming in, Guess the Everett thing has bitten us once again!


The Swans have been using Mumford and Pyke, and not using Everitt in the ruck at all - but yes, he showed in a couple of games for us (against Collingwood pre Jolly in 2009 when we beat them vs Wood) that he could ruck...

Hudson got destoyed on the weekend, and gave away numerous stupid free kicks - signs of a frustrated and fatigued player...

[Mantis]

As you know he's only there because he's coming back from a pretty serious tendon injury. Prior to his injury the coaching staff stated he was knocking on the door.

He is?

He played the week before in the bog at Port Melb. in the Willi 1's, but reports were that he was very poor so I assumed he had been dropped.

[Desipura]

Out: Grant
Stack
Gilbee
Gia
Moles

In: Hall
Cooney
Lake
Schofield
Howard

Huddo stays in due to Roughy copping an injury.
Cross stays in due to the MC not willing to make the hard decisions on a popular player who gives his all for the club

[the banker]

At this point I would be selecting players who you would want in the trenches. No nervous Nellys. I liked the look of Schofield in the pre season match I saw. He can bring the right attitude. We need players with energy and a future, hopefully, courageous young players like Libba, Wood, Schofield, Ward and others that never give in like Cross and Boyd can inspire some of the finesse players. I would love to know where Brian Lake's head is at. If he is fit and wants to play for the club and his fellow team members this could be the time to get him back on track.

We desperately need Roughhead and Cordy to come on. Hudson chosen only because we can't go with only Minson. Given Hawthorn ruck stocks we shoudl eb aiming to capitalise on Centre Bounce Clearances...Hudson to workover Jarryd Roughead.

Schofield Lake Morris
Wood Williams Hargrave
Ward Griffen Cross
Sherman Jones Murphy
Minson Hall Stack

Hudson Boyd Liberatore

Picken Moles Gia (sub) Gilbee

[Mofra]

The thing is there are two players that posters and fans pick on every week. Gia and Stack and maybe they deserve it or maybe not. The thing is why do people pick on the same players when others also play poorly?
Stack actually did ok in the forwardline, and Gia (along with Jones) kept running & presenting all game. The three I've mentioned are part of the few players who would keep their spots in an ideal world.

[LostDoggy]

As far as I can see, our 3 major problems are speed, intensity and kicking.

We have far too many players in our side that are plodders and are simply too slow to generate inferred pressure.

Our mix of players is hurting us far more than our game plan.

I say it's time to to give guys like Dahlhaus, Howard and Schofield a run. Sure they will make mistakes and conceede ground but they all have leg speed and are not afraid to take the game on by foot. Collingwood has shown that you don't need superstars to play a role and create intensity. Blair, Sidebottom, Beams, Wellingham, Dick are not great players but they create intensity and hold the structure in place.

Stack is just not up to it right now, he plays with blinkers and zero awareness. He causes far too much damage with his constant turnovers, he has to go.

Markovic, whilst he is a good stopper he offers absolutely nothing else. It's time to earn your money Brian.

Gia. Speed of the game has passed him by, sure he is creative when he has the ball but he simply doesn't get it enough. He doesn't work the other way because he is too slow. Running all day is no good when you're always second to the contest. It's time to throw this bloke into the middle where he has dominated in the past or set an example and drop him.

Higgins. Obviously injured. Why the hell do we keep playing him?

Grant. Mr millionaire has to realise that he only has $1.50 in his pocket, enough with the look away handballs and cheeky side taps. rtime to chase and tackle son. Drops his head too easily and gives up.

We have enough class and wise heads all over the park, we need some speed and dash to compliment this. We are a few tweeks from getting it right, I think its time for Eade to actually practice what he preachs and swing the axe with some club fav's who are quite obviously way past their best. No more time for favourites, no more time for "he is so popular in the changerooms, we can't drop him".

[LostDoggy]

Out: Grant
Stack
Gilbee
Gia
Moles

In: Hall
Cooney
Lake
Schofield
Howard

Huddo stays in due to Roughy copping an injury.
Cross stays in due to the MC not willing to make the hard decisions on a popular player who gives his all for the club

Yet you think they will and/or to want drop Gia and Gilbee.

[LostDoggy]

I say it's time to to give guys like Dahlhaus, Howard and Schofield a run. Sure they will make mistakes and conceede ground but they all have leg speed and are not afraid to take the game on by foot.

I didn't know Howard was fast.

[LostDoggy]

He definately not slow, he can kick a football I'm told and has been impressing at Willy. Hitting targets from half back and penetrating with long kicks is severely lacking at the moment. Why not give him a go?

Hope that clears it up

[1eyedog]

He is?

He played the week before in the bog at Port Melb. in the Willi 1's, but reports were that he was very poor so I assumed he had been dropped.

He was dropped but I think that is purely a product of the injury sustained to his hand and the 4 odd weeks he had out. He was looking very good in the firsts over a number of weeks prior to injuring his hand at training. I think he will recapture the form if he is persisted with. He has AFL experience and we were prepared to swap him for Everitt so obvioulsy saw something in him. If now isn't a time to test him out over a one month period when is? I think it's worth having a look at him over this period playing in better playing conditions.

[1eyedog]

I despair when I see Barlow being suggested as an inclusion. Has it really come to this?

Bring Lake in for Buddy and challenge him. I imagine he loves the thought that he has owned Buddy in recent times. See if he rises to the challenge.

Fitness shouldn't be an issue even if Buddy runs up and down the ground. The way Lake plays him is to let someone else take Budy when he pushes up onto the wing, picking him up on his way back.

Yeah like the 2008 finals series

[Cyberdoggie]

There would be a valid argument to drop 8 players on tonight's effort but I think it's going to be more around shuffling some of the players around.
I would certainly look at moving Cross to the half forward line and utilising his marking strength rather than having him in the midfield.

In Hall, Cooney and Hill
Out Grant, Higgins and Stack

Not sure what we should do about Hudson

An interesting option. Cross is a strong mark overhead.

We certainly don't have marking targets which may be the reason why the players aren't kicking it long when they are instructed to.

I wouldn't want to kick it long if i looked up and could only see Jones, Grant and Minson as our talls. While they can be options they aren't go to men when we are in defensive mode and looking for a tall target to compete.
Unfortunately we are quick weak in this area.

[Maddog37]

Yeah like the 2008 finals series

It was Morris Buddy owned that game. After Lake moved onto him he beat him IMO.

[soupman]

Markovic is struggling a bit and Mulligan has been in the bests a few times over the last few weeks and according to some at the club was close to selection. I would like to see what he has to offer as a full back before Lake is ready as he is in the last year of his contract.

He is? Prior to this week nearly every thread has been talking about how impressive and reliable he has been. Yes he was terrible on the weekend, but I would hardly consider him to be struggling. The bad game was the abberation, not the five or so good ones prior to that.

[Desipura]

Yet you think they will and/or to want drop Gia and Gilbee.

I dont think it is a huge call on Gia, but in hindsight to everyone esle it is a huge call. Gilbee kicking goals against Richmond will give him credits for a few more weeks

[LostDoggy]

He is? Prior to this week nearly every thread has been talking about how impressive and reliable he has been. Yes he was terrible on the weekend, but I would hardly consider him to be struggling. The bad game was the abberation, not the five or so good ones prior to that.
I agree and would be disappointed if he was dropped. If it is based on last weeks performance 90% of that team should be dropped.

[Desipura]

He definately not slow, he can kick a football I'm told and has been impressing at Willy. Hitting targets from half back and penetrating with long kicks is severely lacking at the moment. Why not give him a go?

Hope that clears it up
Im assuming you are talking about Howard?

[G-Mo77]

I dont think it is a huge call on Gia, but in hindsight to everyone esle it is a huge call. Gilbee kicking goals against Richmond will give him credits for a few more weeks

I really hope that is not the mentality of the MC this week. Gilbee was poor up until then. 1 game shouldn't save a guy from being dropped. As the old saying goes: You're only as good as your last game. Gilbee was poor again and shouldn't have any credits in the machine.

[The Whale]

I like your thinking. I read in todays press that the issues with the eagle are out of the way. Throw the boy a challenge and let us see what he is made of. Shagy can follow buddy up the ground. Can anyone do worse than Tom Williams at present. His lack of physical presence is an embarrasment.

[Mofra]

An interesting option. Cross is a strong mark overhead.
He is also one of our best tacklers which helps the low level of forward pressure we apply - although I suspect Hall will be back who provides next to none himself.

[Greystache]

He is also one of our best tacklers which helps the low level of forward pressure we apply - although I suspect Hall will be back who provides next to none himself.

He also has a better second effort and ability to lock the ball in at a contest than most of our forwards.

[soupman]

The problem with Cross into our forwardline though is it makes it even more one paced. Considering Hall comes in, and Grant probably goes out, we'll have a forwardline of Higgins, Hall, Cross, Minson, Jones and Giansiracusa for large periods. That is the slowest forwardline ever seen at AFL level.

[bornadog]

Stack is just not up to it right now, he plays with blinkers and zero awareness. He causes far too much damage with his constant turnovers, he has to go.".

Is this perception or you checked his stats for turnovers? Perception I would say.

FYI- Stacks turnovers average 4 per game which is 20th worse in our team.

[Greystache]

The problem with Cross into our forwardline though is it makes it even more one paced. Considering Hall comes in, and Grant probably goes out, we'll have a forwardline of Higgins, Hall, Cross, Minson, Jones and Giansiracusa for large periods. That is the slowest forwardline ever seen at AFL level.

Agreed, I don't think we can afford to have Gia and Higgins in the same forward line.

[soupman]

Agreed, I don't think we can afford to have Gia and Higgins in the same forward line.

Well if thats the case I'd rather omit Higgins than Gia. Gia atleast gives us something.

[Greystache]

Well if thats the case I'd rather omit Higgins than Gia. Gia atleast gives us something.

Agreed, and make it dependent on form from there on in.

[LostDoggy]

I dont think it is a huge call on Gia, but in hindsight to everyone esle it is a huge call.

Let me get this straight dropping Gia who wasn't the in the 10 worse this week, was close being made captain and due to play his 200th this week isn't a huge call in your view.

[bornadog]

Let me get this straight dropping Gia who wasn't the in the 10 worse this week, was close being made captain and due to play his 200th this week isn't a huge call in your view.

Hey Chops, I posted this in another thread to a post made by Tama


Sorry, I have to disagree with you on Gia. I think he is in good form this year although patchy in some quarters. He is averaging 17 disposals per game, he is ranked 3rd on goal assists behind Boyd and Griffen and 3rd with tackles inside 50 and 4th in goals kicked. He is doing everything expected of him for a HFF.

Gia is one player I wouldn't be dropping.

[LostDoggy]

Is this perception or you checked his stats for turnovers? Perception I would say.

FYI- Stacks turnovers average 4 per game which is 20th worse in our team.

I don't need stats, I have a pair of eyes and they don't lie. He is a nervous, timid and mistake riddled footballer. Just because he is young doesn't excuse him from scrutiny. He offers little in the way of physical presence to accomodate his timid ball use.

Mind you he is not the only one.

[1eyedog]

It was Morris Buddy owned that game. After Lake moved onto him he beat him IMO.

He beat them both IMO

Mind you he was not bereft of supply

[bornadog]

I don't need stats, I have a pair of eyes and they don't lie. He is a nervous, timid and mistake riddled footballer. Just because he is young doesn't excuse him from scrutiny. He offers little in the way of physical presence to accomodate his timid ball use.

Mind you he is not the only one.

so perception.

As I said I agree he is indecisive, but he also has potential, yet he is picked on by supporters and others such as Wood, who make similar mistakes arenot even spoken about. His turnovers and error stast donot show as many as posters think. I must admit I do shudder abit when he has the ball and wonder what he is going to do. But posting things like he dishes out garbage is very harsh.

[G-Mo77]

so perception.

As I said I agree he is indecisive, but he also has potential, yet he is picked on by supporters and others such as Wood, who make similar mistakes arenot even spoken about. His turnovers and error stast donot show as many as posters think. I must admit I do shudder abit when he has the ball and wonder what he is going to do. But posting things like he dishes out garbage is very harsh.

So why do you shudder when the stats suggest he is a reliable user of the ball? :o

Stats can be bent to make anyone look good or bad.

[LostDoggy]

so perception.

As I said I agree he is indecisive, but he also has potential, yet he is picked on by supporters and others such as Wood, who make similar mistakes arenot even spoken about. His turnovers and error stast donot show as many as posters think. I must admit I do shudder abit when he has the ball and wonder what he is going to do. But posting things like he dishes out garbage is very harsh.

I agree the language was inappropriate, harsh and uncalled for. I will go back and edit it out. Apologies.

You're right, Wood does make mistakes, difference is, Wood has confidence in his game, takes it on at every chance and has proven to be an effective shut down player first and foremost.

Nervous footballers playing in defence need the stability of a solid core of backmen to aid thier development. Our backline has been decimated in compariosn to last year and has left Stack overly exposed in a new position. He is getting killed out there, he has no protection and is far too timid for the role asked of him.

[G-Mo77]

Nervous footballers playing in defence need the stability of a solid core of backmen to aid thier development. Our backline has been decimated in compariosn to last year and has left Stack overly exposed in a new position. He is getting killed out there, he has no protection and is far too timid for the role asked of him.

I'd have to agree with that. He moved up forward later in the game and looked more composed and confident.

There have been times I've been pleased with the way he plays but the unforced errors he makes cancel them out. He just comes across as a player who hasn't found his niche in the team when or if he finds that he may be a lot more confident.

[LostDoggy]

I'd have to agree with that. He moved up forward later in the game and looked more composed and confident.

There have been times I've been pleased with the way he plays but the unforced errors he makes cancel them out. He just comes across as a player who hasn't found his niche in the team when or if he finds that he may be a lot more confident.


Hope so!

It seems the MC can't find a position for him, thus far he hasn't proven himself at either end of the park.

I can't see how that chopping and changing would be helping his confidence either.

[bornadog]

So why do you shudder when the stats suggest he is a reliable user of the ball? :o

Stats can be bent to make anyone look good or bad.


I'd have to agree with that. He moved up forward later in the game and looked more composed and confident.

There have been times I've been pleased with the way he plays but the unforced errors he makes cancel them out. He just comes across as a player who hasn't found his niche in the team when or if he finds that he may be a lot more confident.

I think you and Tama have answered the question. I guess it is a confidence thing, but I still believe he can make it. Having said all that, with only 10 disposals last week, he is under the hammer(as are plenty others) and his Richmond game was ok but not brilliant.

[G-Mo77]

Hope so!

It seems the MC can't find a position for him, thus far he hasn't proven himself at either end of the park.

I can't see how that chopping and changing would be helping his confidence either.

No it doesn't help at all. I'm honestly not sure were to play him. He played some forward last year and did some good things and this season he's shown some good signs in the back half. :confused:

[bornadog]

No it doesn't help at all. I'm honestly not sure were to play him. He played some forward last year and did some good things and this season he's shown some good signs in the back half. :confused:

The MC should not have subbed him for the Suns match. Playing against the kids was perect for him to gain confidence.

For the future, if he can develop and with his pace, would be great to see Stack and Wood off HBF. I can't see Hill as a backman at all.

[The Whale]

In: The Vespa (straight from Willy 2nds), Hall, Lake, Wallis. Hahn (create a long term injury) Cooney,

Out: WIlliams (he must have photos of Eade as he can't ever do a thing wrong). Grant, Markovic, Hill, Higgins, Easten (gone south) Wood.

Williams will make gret trade bait for 2012. The Vespa was picked up to be a small forward so lets us him. Markovic gives his opponent far too much ground. Higgins a poor mans ALan Stoneham, (will never live up to his promise).

[LostDoggy]

In: The Vespa (straight from Willy 2nds), Hall, Lake, Wallis. Hahn (create a long term injury) Cooney,

Out: WIlliams (he must have photos of Eade as he can't ever do a thing wrong). Grant, Markovic, Hill, Higgins, Easten (gone south) Wood.

Williams will make gret trade bait for 2012. The Vespa was picked up to be a small forward so lets us him. Markovic gives his opponent far too much ground. Higgins a poor mans ALan Stoneham, (will never live up to his promise).
Can not drop Hill when he was not in to drop !

[Desipura]

Wood has pace to burn, Stack has no outstanding feature to his game. Wood does not mind taking the game on whilst Stack does not have the cleanest hands. Wood has more upside hence why Stack cops criticism

[Desipura]

Let me get this straight dropping Gia who wasn't the in the 10 worse this week, was close being made captain and due to play his 200th this week isn't a huge call in your view.
It depends how highly you rate him, I obviously dont rate him as highly as you or many others, regardless of what credentials you want to put forward to me.

I think he has been a very good AFL player who's best is behind him and the game has passed him by. I was not aware it is his 200th game this week, if thats the case...the call suddenly is a bit bigger.

[1eyedog]

In: The Vespa (straight from Willy 2nds), Hall, Lake, Wallis. Hahn (create a long term injury) Cooney,

Out: WIlliams (he must have photos of Eadeas he can't ever do a thing wrong). Grant, Markovic, Hill, Higgins, Easten (gone south) Wood.

Williams will make gret trade bait for 2012. The Vespa was picked up to be a small forward so lets us him. Markovic gives his opponent far too much ground. Higgins a poor mans ALan Stoneham, (will never live up to his promise).

Where has Wood gone south? He has hardly played a game this season. Williams is a long-term project that the MC are persisting with, key CHB who can run are like hen's teeth. It's worth persisting IMO. You have ommitted some serious key backs with no sight of any replacements. Will Hahn shore up our backline now with Williams and Markovic ommitted?

[bornadog]

Wood has pace to burn, Stack has no outstanding feature to his game. Wood does not mind taking the game on whilst Stack doesn ot have the cleanest hands. Wood has more upside hence why Stack cops criticism


It depends how highly you rate him, I obviously dont rate him as highly as you or many others, regardless of what credentials you want to put forward to me.

I think he has been a very good AFL player who's best is behind him and the game has passed him by.

Well no use flogging a dead horse, so we will have to just agree to disagree. I guess the MC also doesn't agree with you as well.

[Desipura]

Well no use flogging a dead horse, so we will have to just agree to disagree. I guess the MC also doesn't agree with you as well.
In what way? Wood has come straight back in the firsts after a lengthy time out injured, I think the MC rate him very highly.
Do you think Stack would come straight back into the team after a long term injury?
Stack is in the team due to not having many running half back flankers in form or AFL ready.

[bornadog]

In what way? Wood has come straight back in the firsts after a lengthy time out injured, I think the MC rate him very highly.
Do you think Stack would come straight back into the team after a long term injury?
Stack is in the team due to not having many running half back flankers in form or AFL ready.

Stack will most likely get dropped this week, Gia won't and shouldn't.

[always right]

Some on this board have suggested that Mulligan be brought in. I haven't seen him play in quite a while. Has he really improved that much?

The last time I saw him play he looked to be a very average VFL player. Would be very happy if he has taken some big steps. In what areas of his game has he improved markedly?

[Doc26]

Some on this board have suggested that Mulligan be brought in. I haven't seen him play in quite a while. Has he really improved that much?

The last time I saw him play he looked to be a very average VFL player. Would be very happy if he has taken some big steps. In what areas of his game has he improved markedly?

He has improved, now he's an average VFL player heading towards solid.

[chef]

He is? Prior to this week nearly every thread has been talking about how impressive and reliable he has been. Yes he was terrible on the weekend, but I would hardly consider him to be struggling. The bad game was the abberation, not the five or so good ones prior to that.

To me he is, Richmond's talls also kicked a few on him.

[GVGjr]

Some on this board have suggested that Mulligan be brought in. I haven't seen him play in quite a while. Has he really improved that much?

The last time I saw him play he looked to be a very average VFL player. Would be very happy if he has taken some big steps. In what areas of his game has he improved markedly?

Mulligan isn't a high possession winner and he isn't a particularly strong mark. What he has done well this season is deny his opponent the ball and negate their influence on the game.
Physically he is the sort of player that you would want in the side but even if he was promoted I couldn't see him becoming a regular senior player.

[Rocco Jones]

Mulligan isn't a high possession winner and he isn't a particularly strong mark. What he has done well this season is deny his opponent the ball and negate their influence on the game.
Physically he is the sort of player that you would want in the side but even if he was promoted I couldn't see him becoming a regular senior player.

I agree with that.

What kind of opponents does he play on for Willy? These negating types can be hard to measure as they can sometimes seamlessly move into the higher level. It's hard to look great as a negating player at any level.

[LostDoggy]

Very early possible

FB....Picken.........Markovic.........Morris..........
HB......................Murphy.............................
CHB........Mulligan............Williams................
C....Ward..............Boyd........... Griffen.........
HF...Sherman......Minson...........Gilbee..........
F.....Stack............Jones.............Grant..........
Foll......Hudson.....Cross......Liberatore...........

Int..Hargrave...Giansiracusa...Moles...Hill ( Sub )

I did want to bring in Howard but went for extra height with Mulligan, and yes I have named 2 CHB this is to try and create a rebound press , on the kick-in Ward and Griffen drop back to the 40m arc while Mulligan and Williams move up past the 50m arc as tall targets

Stack and Sherman in the forward line gives us more leg speed, as Addison is injured Stack gets a chance as a defensive forward I would have preferred to bring in Djerrkura but he had a quiet game for Williamstown , Moles gets a move onto the bench , Hill had a good hitout for Williamstown and gives us a flexible Sub

.

If Addison passes a late medical then Stack goes out , Addison is the better pick as a defensive forward. The fact that Tom Hill is possibly going on the LTIL does bring into the mix that we promote Barlow, as a rebounding tall he could come in instead of Mulligan, he can also pinch hit in the ruck and move forward

.

[GVGjr]

I agree with that.

What kind of opponents does he play on for Willy? These negating types can be hard to measure as they can sometimes seamlessly move into the higher level. It's hard to look great as a negating player at any level.

He typically gets one one the two key forwards so he's getting some good opponents but my doubts are if he could do that against even better opponents.

[Greystache]

He typically gets one one the two key forwards so he's getting some good opponents but my doubts are if he could do that against even better opponents.

I have my doubts too, but I thought he did a good job on Jayden Post against Coburg, and Post showed a bit on Saturday night against Essendon.

[FrediKanoute]

Ins - Mulligan - may or may not be up to AFL Standard, but for mine I'd pick based on form and all indicators are that he has form;
- Hill - been dropped/responded deserves a recall
- Dahlhaus - elevate. The kid has been carving it up at a lower level and we need pace. Rough's injury is a shame, but that's life
- Cooney - if he is fit play him; if he is unfit use him as a sub.
- Hall - we have about 3 or 4 weeks to get the season back on track and then its gone. Hall must be part of this

Out - Grant - needs a spell in the 2's - even if only for a week to regain some form;
- Cross - we need to inject pace into the midfield and Cross is the odd man out;
- Moles - if Cooney is in do we need him? Who does he replace?
- Gilbee - hate to say it but he is cooked. Unless he can reinvent himself as a forward he's done for and we are better off playing Wood/Stack and Hill.
- one other.......maybe Mulligan waits another week

[BulldogBelle]

Ins - Mulligan - may or may not be up to AFL Standard, but for mine I'd pick based on form and all indicators are that he has form;
- Hill - been dropped/responded deserves a recall
- Dahlhaus - elevate. The kid has been carving it up at a lower level and we need pace. Rough's injury is a shame, but that's life
- Cooney - if he is fit play him; if he is unfit use him as a sub.
- Hall - we have about 3 or 4 weeks to get the season back on track and then its gone. Hall must be part of this

Out - Grant - needs a spell in the 2's - even if only for a week to regain some form;
- Cross - we need to inject pace into the midfield and Cross is the odd man out;
- Moles - if Cooney is in do we need him? Who does he replace?
- Gilbee - hate to say it but he is cooked. Unless he can reinvent himself as a forward he's done for and we are better off playing Wood/Stack and Hill.
- one other.......maybe Mulligan waits another week


I would bring back Lake this week - if he is mentally and physically ready to play.

I realise his game vs Collingwood's VFL side last week wasnt too flash, but he is the sort of enigma that we need to kickstart our season again, and if he is mentally prepared to play, then I'm sure he can play under an amount of physical duress. He has done so in previous seasons (eg at the end of 2010 and been effective).

Our last quarter efforts showed that the game is player 90% above the shoulders- so I would elevate experienced campaigners to give the rest of the team a rev up. Dalhaus should be elevated from the rookie list if Rougheads shoulder is a long term injury, he has shown the necessary desire, energy and skill that we require at present.

I would bring Brad Johnson into the rooms during the week to speak to all of the players and try to re-install some pride and confidence back into the group.

Geelong smashed us in roung 20 last year by 99 points - we bounced back against Essendon and Sydney in the finals - we can do it again


Ins
Cooney
Dalhaus
Lake
Hall

Outs
Grant
Stack
Gilbee
Higgins

[ratsmac]

An interesting option. Cross is a strong mark overhead.

We certainly don't have marking targets which may be the reason why the players aren't kicking it long when they are instructed to.

I wouldn't want to kick it long if i looked up and could only see Jones, Grant and Minson as our talls. While they can be options they aren't go to men when we are in defensive mode and looking for a tall target to compete.
Unfortunately we are quick weak in this area.

People keep saying that Cross is a strong mark overhead. I would say yes but only when he is cutting off a lead or just around the ground. It's a totally different situation when your on the forward line with a defender who's job is to stop you from marking the ball. Cross isn't quick enough to get into space with a defender tagging him and I don't think he is strong enough to constantly win one on one marking contests.

Cross I feel might be in trouble given our current situation. They might want to try him as a sub option coming on later in games when players are fatigued and his leg speed might not be so evident. I love Crossy because of the heart he has shown over the years. He was Scott West's side kick but what he doesn't seem to do the same as West is create play. He is a super extractor of the ball but it isn't enough.

Crossy your days are numbered, but your not alone.

[1eyedog]

I have my doubts too, but I thought he did a good job on Jayden Post against Coburg, and Post showed a bit on Saturday night against Essendon.

No he didn't he was woeful in my opinion. Dropped an easy chest mark to top his night off 30 metres out from goal. he looked all at sea and my money is he will be back at Coburg.

Still, he has done a bit over the past few weeks at Coburg and had reasonable form going into the match against Essendon. I live in Coburg and walk around to watch games regularly (Jake King is almost always there) and can say with some surety that R*&*mond do not have a Plan B after Riewoldt for their forward line. I'm not suprised Mulligan played well on Post.

[Mofra]

Mulligan isn't a high possession winner and he isn't a particularly strong mark. What he has done well this season is deny his opponent the ball and negate their influence on the game.
Physically he is the sort of player that you would want in the side but even if he was promoted I couldn't see him becoming a regular senior player.
As described, he is basically someone you can't have in the same side as Markovic, who is really another negator.

[Mofra]

Cross I feel might be in trouble given our current situation. They might want to try him as a sub option coming on later in games when players are fatigued and his leg speed might not be so evident.
Disagree completely - his forte is running ability and endurance. Take that away (by making him a sub) and he's finished.

I much prefer we play players to their strengths and not against their weaknesses.

[1eyedog]

People keep saying that Cross is a strong mark overhead. I would say yes but only when he is cutting off a lead or just around the ground. It's a totally different situation when your on the forward line with a defender who's job is to stop you from marking the ball. Cross isn't quick enough to get into space with a defender tagging him and I don't think he is strong enough to constantly win one on one marking contests.

Cross I feel might be in trouble given our current situation. They might want to try him as a sub option coming on later in games when players are fatigued and his leg speed might not be so evident. I love Crossy because of the heart he has shown over the years. He was Scott West's side kick but what he doesn't seem to do the same as West is create play. He is a super extractor of the ball but it isn't enough.

Crossy your days are numbered, but your not alone.

I'm sick of comments like this geez they make me angry. Cross was almost best on field against Richmond, come off with a split eye and inspired the third quarter comeback. He has a shocker like the rest of the team (apologies to Boyd and Griff) last week and you're back on here with daggers out. I appreciate that you are emotional about the loss but it looks ridiculous when your emotions run on a week to week basis.

What is your opinion if he is BOG against Hawthorn on Sunday because it may just happen.

[ratsmac]

Disagree completely - his forte is running ability and endurance. Take that away (by making him a sub) and he's finished.

I much prefer we play players to their strengths and not against their weaknesses.

This is my point. Cross is slow, very slow. By letting the game slow down with players becoming tired he would out run his opponents with his endurance. He can run out games easily but wouldn't he better (quicker) with half a game. It's just a thought to prolong the inevitable. If this doesn't work, your right he may well be finished. We need pace in our team, with boyd, Cross, Cooney on one leg, Ward, Picken, Gilbee, Gia and Libba all between the half forward and half back lines we are way too slow and are getting smashed.

[ratsmac]

I'm sick of comments like this geez they make me angry. Cross was almost best on field against Richmond, come off with a split eye and inspired the third quarter comeback. He has a shocker like the rest of the team (apologies to Boyd and Griff) last week and you're back on here with daggers out. I appreciate that you are emotional about the loss but it looks ridiculous when your emotions run on a week to week basis.

What is your opinion if he is BOG against Hawthorn on Sunday because it may just happen.

I hope I'm wrong, I love Cross, If every player played with his heart we might not be 3-5. But I feel that we can't continue with such a slow team. We seem to have to many of the same type of players. All I'm saying is something must change because what we are running with doesn't stand up against the better teams. We can smash lower teams but too many times we are found wanting against good teams and are going through these same sort of discussions. I hope he is BOG against the Hawks and he goes on to win the Brownlow. Is he the player to build our premiership team around? Maybe once upon a time but not anymore.

[Greystache]

No he didn't he was woeful in my opinion. Dropped an easy chest mark to top his night off 30 metres out from goal. he looked all at sea and my money is he will be back at Coburg.

Still, he has done a bit over the past few weeks at Coburg and had reasonable form going into the match against Essendon. I live in Coburg and walk around to watch games regularly (Jake King is almost always there) and can say with some surety that R*&*mond do not have a Plan B after Riewoldt for their forward line. I'm not suprised Mulligan played well on Post.

I don't agree. I went to the game, and thought he presented and contested fairly well. In a game that had little contribution from marking forwards Post was as good as anyone Essendon had.

[BulldogBelle]

I hope I'm wrong, I love Cross, If every player played with his heart we might not be 3-5. But I feel that we can't continue with such a slow team. We seem to have to many of the same type of players. All I'm saying is something must change because what we are running with doesn't stand up against the better teams. We can smash lower teams but too many times we are found wanting against good teams and are going through these same sort of discussions. I hope he is BOG against the Hawks and he goes on to win the Brownlow. Is he the player to build our premiership team around? Maybe once upon a time but not anymore.



When Geelong beat us in the 2008 prelim, the post season message to supporters was that the team needed to develop size and bulk, and win stoppages- which it seems we have had reasonable success in doing

Against St Kilda in the 2009 prelim, the post season message was to supporters that our unpredictable small forward line would benefit from a power forward, as our small forwards couldnt score in a tight finals environment - we responded by recruiting Barry Hall.

In the wash-up from 2010, the clubs #1 message was that we needed to address deficiancies surrounding speed, hence the recruitment of Sherman, Vespa and DJ- as quicker sides like Collingwood smashed us.


All of the discussion above surrounding Cross is focused on his speed, and the fact that he is surrounded by Boyd, Libba, Ward, Higgins etc who arent road runners...

Our game plan of trying to take on the press by handballing isnt suited to the players we have (slower team overall)

Geelong arent quick, but their game plan is predicated by quick and long movements of the ball by foot, and they seem to play much closer to the boundary line under Scott than they did under Thompson.

Whilst we are generally slow (eg the above mentioned mids), we move the ball by hand (particularly accross the backline and in the midfield), and we kick to a contest, we are happy for the ball to run out of bounds, where I think the coaching staff believes are biggers bodies can win the clearance.

We didnt work hard enough against West Coast, and we had Hudson being smashed in the ruck, and the West Coast players simply playing smarter and spreading much quicker as soon as they had a sniff of the ball in contests. Our mids simply got sucked into multiple players trying to extract the ball, and not thinking two moves ahead about who to get the ball to once the first possesion was gained - our mids didnt spread quick enough, and the number of tackles we missed was disgusting.

Comes down to workrate, and game plan - not breakneck speed.

Daniel Cross is simply a scapegoat, as is Gia due to their lack of footspeed, but they remain two of our most important players.

[Mofra]

This is my point. Cross is slow, very slow. By letting the game slow down with players becoming tired he would out run his opponents with his endurance. He can run out games easily but wouldn't he better (quicker) with half a game.
So we take away his one advantage to make his major downfall slightly less worse?

We would be losing far more than we gain.

[Ozza]

I'm sick of comments like this geez they make me angry. Cross was almost best on field against Richmond, come off with a split eye and inspired the third quarter comeback. He has a shocker like the rest of the team (apologies to Boyd and Griff) last week and you're back on here with daggers out. I appreciate that you are emotional about the loss but it looks ridiculous when your emotions run on a week to week basis.

What is your opinion if he is BOG against Hawthorn on Sunday because it may just happen.

If Crossy is our best player against Hawthorn - then it is not likely that we have won the game.

I don't mean to be harsh to Crossy - as a supporter I think we have all loved him in terms of his bravery, dedication, willingness to put his head over it - and for quite a few years - be an important cog in our midfield with his endurance.

But as the game has evolved - its become more and more crucial to be able to hurt the opposition with the ball and he has become a liability to our ball movement. Yes he is great overhead - but he is not in the side to be taking contested marks. And when he does mark the footy, he inevitably slows the play down by going sidewards because his capabilities dictate that he hasn't got the penetration to look upwards in the 'V' ahead of him. Add to that, when he does play on, he is regularly either kicking to the opposition or handballing to a team mate under pressure.

He isn't a centre clearance player - so his case as an 'inside mid' is questionable, and he is limited in who he tags if we continue down that route.

At the moment, in my opinion, Crossy is a team man, who'd get his head kniocked off for his club - but he is slow and can't kick - and I'm not sure where his role is going forward if we are to get better as a side.

I'm well aware this opinion will be extremely unpopular with many.

[LostDoggy]

Cross Lake Morris
Hargrave Murphy Picken
Griffin Boyd Sherman
Giansiracusa Cordy Cooney
Veszpremi Hall Higgins

Minson Ward Liberatore
Gilbee Moles Wood Djerrkura

Grant, Jones, Williams, Stack, Hill all get to go back to the Magoos

Sheese - didn't think it would get to this in January....

[G-Mo77]

Grant, Jones, Williams, Stack, Hill all get to go back to the Magoos

Poor Josh, he doesn't even play and still gets the blame for a bad loss. :D

[Greystache]

Cross Lake Morris
Hargrave Murphy Picken
Griffin Boyd Sherman
Giansiracusa Cordy Cooney
Veszpremi Hall Higgins

Minson Ward Liberatore
Gilbee Moles Wood Djerrkura

Grant, Jones, Williams, Stack, Hill all get to go back to the Magoos

Sheese - didn't think it would get to this in January....

Drop Jones? The player who's been about our only positive this year?

For someone who played Willi reserves last week, or a guy who struggles at VFL level!:rolleyes:

[bornadog]

This is the best post in this thread


When Geelong beat us in the 2008 prelim, the post season message to supporters was that the team needed to develop size and bulk, and win stoppages- which it seems we have had reasonable success in doing

Against St Kilda in the 2009 prelim, the post season message was to supporters that our unpredictable small forward line would benefit from a power forward, as our small forwards couldnt score in a tight finals environment - we responded by recruiting Barry Hall.

In the wash-up from 2010, the clubs #1 message was that we needed to address deficiancies surrounding speed, hence the recruitment of Sherman, Vespa and DJ- as quicker sides like Collingwood smashed us.


All of the discussion above surrounding Cross is focused on his speed, and the fact that he is surrounded by Boyd, Libba, Ward, Higgins etc who arent road runners...

Our game plan of trying to take on the press by handballing isnt suited to the players we have (slower team overall)

Geelong arent quick, but their game plan is predicated by quick and long movements of the ball by foot, and they seem to play much closer to the boundary line under Scott than they did under Thompson.

Whilst we are generally slow (eg the above mentioned mids), we move the ball by hand (particularly accross the backline and in the midfield), and we kick to a contest, we are happy for the ball to run out of bounds, where I think the coaching staff believes are biggers bodies can win the clearance.

We didnt work hard enough against West Coast, and we had Hudson being smashed in the ruck, and the West Coast players simply playing smarter and spreading much quicker as soon as they had a sniff of the ball in contests. Our mids simply got sucked into multiple players trying to extract the ball, and not thinking two moves ahead about who to get the ball to once the first possesion was gained - our mids didnt spread quick enough, and the number of tackles we missed was disgusting.

Comes down to workrate, and game plan - not breakneck speed.

Daniel Cross is simply a scapegoat, as is Gia due to their lack of footspeed, but they remain two of our most important players.

[BulldogBelle]

This is the best post in this thread



Our handballing through the press gameplan would work if we had quick + evasive players like Harbrow (miss him) and Griffin running the ball out of the back 50 - but the majority of our other players just arent quick enough to do so.

We need to kick more often and more accurately but not necessary longer to offset this lack of leg speed and youth...our game needs to be predicated on playing on at all costs, and moving the ball with our feet - because our legs have slowed

[bornadog]

Our handballing through the press gameplan would work if we had quick + evasive players like Harbrow (miss him) and Griffin running the ball out of the back 50 - but the majority of our other players just arent quick enough to do so.

We need to kick more often and more accurately but not necessary longer to offset this lack of leg speed and youth...our game needs to be predicated on playing on at all costs, and moving the ball with our feet - because our legs have slowed

How about keeping Picken as a permanent replacement for Harbrow. He has the speed he is one of our best tacklers and can thump a ball.

[ratsmac]

When Geelong beat us in the 2008 prelim, the post season message to supporters was that the team needed to develop size and bulk, and win stoppages- which it seems we have had reasonable success in doing

Against St Kilda in the 2009 prelim, the post season message was to supporters that our unpredictable small forward line would benefit from a power forward, as our small forwards couldnt score in a tight finals environment - we responded by recruiting Barry Hall.

In the wash-up from 2010, the clubs #1 message was that we needed to address deficiancies surrounding speed, hence the recruitment of Sherman, Vespa and DJ- as quicker sides like Collingwood smashed us.


All of the discussion above surrounding Cross is focused on his speed, and the fact that he is surrounded by Boyd, Libba, Ward, Higgins etc who arent road runners...

Our game plan of trying to take on the press by handballing isnt suited to the players we have (slower team overall)

Geelong arent quick, but their game plan is predicated by quick and long movements of the ball by foot, and they seem to play much closer to the boundary line under Scott than they did under Thompson.

Whilst we are generally slow (eg the above mentioned mids), we move the ball by hand (particularly accross the backline and in the midfield), and we kick to a contest, we are happy for the ball to run out of bounds, where I think the coaching staff believes are biggers bodies can win the clearance.

We didnt work hard enough against West Coast, and we had Hudson being smashed in the ruck, and the West Coast players simply playing smarter and spreading much quicker as soon as they had a sniff of the ball in contests. Our mids simply got sucked into multiple players trying to extract the ball, and not thinking two moves ahead about who to get the ball to once the first possesion was gained - our mids didnt spread quick enough, and the number of tackles we missed was disgusting.

Comes down to workrate, and game plan - not breakneck speed.

Daniel Cross is simply a scapegoat, as is Gia due to their lack of footspeed, but they remain two of our most important players.

I agree with everything you said and I think your right with the game plan part, but eventually someone must break the lines, and with Cooney injuried it is left to griffen to do this. Yes others chip in like Ward and maybe Sherman but not nearly enough. We need speed, whether it's leg speed or fast ball movement, right now we have neither. Our skills have been terrible this year even when we have won. This is why Cross and Gia get smashed on this forum because the team is slow right now, and with slow ball movement they look even slower than perhaps they normally would.

[1eyedog]

I don't agree. I went to the game, and thought he presented and contested fairly well. In a game that had little contribution from marking forwards Post was as good as anyone Essendon had.

I thought Riewoldt with his 4 goals was much better than Post and Vickery with his couple as well as his strong marking also put him well ahead of Post who I persoanlly thought offered very little as a marking target. But that's cool and fair enough but I don't think Post is going anywhere in a hurry, but I'm off topic again.

[Mantis]

How about keeping Picken as a permanent replacement for Harbrow. He has the speed he is one of our best tacklers and can thump a ball.

And?

Precision by foot is what we are lacking from defence and I can't see a 'thumper' improving the situation.

[LostDoggy]

Poor Josh, he doesn't even play and still gets the blame for a bad loss. :D

LMAO; fairly nailed on this....:D

[1eyedog]

If Crossy is our best player against Hawthorn - then it is not likely that we have won the game. I don't mean to be harsh to Crossy - as a supporter I think we have all loved him in terms of his bravery, dedication, willingness to put his head over it - and for quite a few years - be an important cog in our midfield with his endurance.

But as the game has evolved - its become more and more crucial to be able to hurt the opposition with the ball and he has become a liability to our ball movement. Yes he is great overhead - but he is not in the side to be taking contested marks. And when he does mark the footy, he inevitably slows the play down by going sidewards because his capabilities dictate that he hasn't got the penetration to look upwards in the 'V' ahead of him. Add to that, when he does play on, he is regularly either kicking to the opposition or handballing to a team mate under pressure.

He isn't a centre clearance player - so his case as an 'inside mid' is questionable, and he is limited in who he tags if we continue down that route.

At the moment, in my opinion, Crossy is a team man, who'd get his head kniocked off for his club - but he is slow and can't kick - and I'm not sure where his role is going forward if we are to get better as a side.

I'm well aware this opinion will be extremely unpopular with many.

Okay that's your opinion and thanks for stating it but there were many victories last year where Cross was in our best three.

I still think he wins a hell of a lot of ball and if he was out of the side I am at a bit of a loss as to who is going to go in and get it. Boyd has become a different player and Libba Jnr is too young to expect a consistent performace from week after week. I know the game has changed, but with the sub rule I see the game slowing down a lot in the second half and like Mofra I see Cross' endurance coming into play here.

There also appears to be considerably more stoppages as players become fatigued and I think Cross has a role at these in the latter part of a match. Yes I am concerned by his lack of efficiency by foot and his lack of speed but his ability to hunt the ball and feed outside players is still a valid one IMO. I'm happy to eat my words if I'm wrong and I may well be but I'm sure we'll find out where he is at at season's end.

[1eyedog]

Cross Lake Morris
Hargrave Murphy Picken
Griffin Boyd Sherman
Giansiracusa Cordy Cooney
Veszpremi Hall Higgins

Minson Ward Liberatore
Gilbee Moles Wood Djerrkura

Grant, Jones, Williams, Stack, Hill all get to go back to the Magoos

Sheese - didn't think it would get to this in January....

Glad you aren't part of the MC

[Maddog37]

Okay that's your opinion and thanks for stating it but there were many victories last year where Cross was in our best three.

I still think he wins a hell of a lot of ball and if he was out of the side I am at a bit of a loss as to who is going to go in and get it. Boyd has become a different player and Libba Jnr is too young to expect a consistent performace from week after week. I know the game has changed, but with the sub rule I see the game slowing down a lot in the second half and like Mofra I see Cross' endurance coming into play here.

There also appears to be considerably more stoppages as players become fatigued and I think Cross has a role at these in the latter part of a match. Yes I am concerned by his lack of efficiency by foot and his lack of speed but his ability to hunt the ball and feed outside players is still a valid one IMO. I'm happy to eat my words if I'm wrong and I may well be but I'm sure we'll find out where he is at at season's end.


If Cross tags Hodge or Mitchell out of the game it would a big win for us.

[Hotdog60]

And?

Precision by foot is what we are lacking from defense and I can't see a 'thumper' improving the situation.

I don't know much about Dahlhaus disposal, but could he potentially become a Harbrow replacement. A bit like a crumbing forward only in the backline, has good evasive skills and can tackle but can he spoil like Harbrow?

I know he needs to be elevated but could he start down back to give us a bit of leg speed and drive.

[Sedat]

I don't know much about Dahlhaus disposal, but could he potentially become a Harbrow replacement. A bit like a crumbing forward only in the backline, has good evasive skills and can tackle but can he spoil like Harbrow?

I know he needs to be elevated but could he start down back to give us a bit of leg speed and drive.
For mine, Murphy and Griffen stay behind the ball (with Griff having stints in the middle). Then we pray that Howard makes it down the track and his left cannon can be unleashed off half back. Lake and Shaggy back to full fitness, Wood doing the Harbrow run and carry thing when his fitness returns to optimum, Markovic and Morris providing the negating and it looks a better mix down back. Shame that the Hill and Stack experiments down back haven't works but they have been well worth a try. Talk of Picken and Addison running out of defence a-la Harbrow leave me thinking that the goal umpire's chiropractor will be the only winner out of that structure. Picko and DFA should be our crunch 'em forwards, Cross up there as well. Jones, Grant and Hall round out the forward line, as well as Coondog when he is not in the middle. Gia spends most of his time in the middle alongside Boyd, Libba and Ward, with Sherman used as the wide receiver, and Coons used in this role when his knee allows it.

Silk down back, grunt in the middle and manic intensity and contested marking ability up forward. Our season is not shot by a long way.

[LostDoggy]

We were never really a quick team. We just moved the ball really quickly with precision by hand and foot for a few years.

Then the zone/press has come in and we cant play this game anymore.

Regarding Crossy, he was very good against richmond and on Sunday he was matched up on Priddis and done a pretty decent job IMO, considering Priddis form over the last month he was pretty quiet against us.

Defiantely deserves to remain in the team.

[comrade]

Silk down back, grunt in the middle and manic intensity and contested marking ability up forward. Our season is not shot by a long way.

That all sounds great and makes a lot of sense, but what are the chances of it actually being implemented?

[w3design]

If Cross tags Hodge or Mitchell out of the game it would a big win for us.

If we are starting to question cross' place in the best 22 I think this is the answer. Cross' dedication, single mindedness, discipline and focus could make him an effective tagger a bit like libba senior's reinvention when the game started to pass him by. Crossy's sacrificial game on Simon Black in the 09 final showed he can excel in this role. The problem is, due to Cooney's recent struggles, he and Boyd are playing roles as attacking midfielders not lockdown players. Neither are quick or highly skilled but Cross is not just uncreative and poor by foot, his handball is slow, wide and looping. As a highly defensive tagger who just sits on a player this would be less of a weakness.

Footy's a cruel unfair business. Cross is the role model of a guy who's extracted every ounce out of his ability and willed us across the line more than once. It is sad that his place in the team is under scrutiny and I don't envy the MC in having to decide this one.

[bornadog]

And?

Precision by foot is what we are lacking from defence and I can't see a 'thumper' improving the situation.

Well do you agree or not about my suggestion. What I am saying is Picken is a good user of the ball, he can kick a ball (Unlike Harbrow - sorry had to get that in just for you:D)

[Mantis]

Well do you agree or not about my suggestion. What I am saying is Picken is a good user of the ball, he can kick a ball (Unlike Harbrow - sorry had to get that in just for you:D)

Picken has been playing pretty much all year as a small defender so nothing changes with your suggestion.

And how apt that you throw in a jibe about Harbrow's kicking... what was it 37%... but what you have never spoken about is (was) Harbrow's unique ability to run the angles and to switch play which in the modern game when everyone is compressing into one section of the ground is a very unique skill-set we had.

[bornadog]

Picken has been playing pretty much all year as a small defender so nothing changes with your suggestion.

And how apt that you throw in a jibe about Harbrow's kicking... what was it 37%... but what you have never spoken about is (was) Harbrow's unique ability to run the angles and to switch play which in the modern game when everyone is compressing into one section of the ground is a very unique skill-set we had.

Mantis, bit of humour thats all, no need to take it seriously.

We are really missing Harbrow's dash and weave, especially against teams that are applying the forward press.

[Ghost Dog]

For mine, Murphy and Griffen stay behind the ball (with Griff having stints in the middle). Then we pray that Howard makes it down the track and his left cannon can be unleashed off half back. Lake and Shaggy back to full fitness, Wood doing the Harbrow run and carry thing when his fitness returns to optimum, Markovic and Morris providing the negating and it looks a better mix down back. Shame that the Hill and Stack experiments down back haven't works but they have been well worth a try. Talk of Picken and Addison running out of defence a-la Harbrow leave me thinking that the goal umpire's chiropractor will be the only winner out of that structure. Picko and DFA should be our crunch 'em forwards, Cross up there as well. Jones, Grant and Hall round out the forward line, as well as Coondog when he is not in the middle. Gia spends most of his time in the middle alongside Boyd, Libba and Ward, with Sherman used as the wide receiver, and Coons used in this role when his knee allows it.

Silk down back, grunt in the middle and manic intensity and contested marking ability up forward. Our season is not shot by a long way.

How do you think our captain is travelling this season Sedat? respect your view.

[Sedat]

How do you think our captain is travelling this season Sedat? respect your view.
You know what you're going to get with Boydy, outstanding clearance ability combined with licorice allsorts when it comes to disposal by foot. He has been absolutely outstanding in some games (Freo and Richmond in particular) and fair in others. When he rushes his kick out of congestion, it generally doesn't help the team at all, then you see him spear a laser pass into forward 50 like he did a couple of times against Richmond and you wish he would take more care when using the ball.

He is definitely missing Cooney in the middle, whise absence from the centre is placing too much pressure on Boyd to be both the inside ball winner and the clearance winner. Would comfortably be in the top 3 in B&F but I just wish he worked on hitting targets better - I get the feeling his ambition exceeds his ability when it comes to trying to spot up the perfect Nathan Buckley-esque kick to a forward 50 target. I'd like to see him kick a 50-50 to advantage more than try to decapitate worms en route to his intended target. To be fair to him, he is the least of our worries at the moment.

[BulldogBelle]

For mine, Murphy and Griffen stay behind the ball (with Griff having stints in the middle). Then we pray that Howard makes it down the track and his left cannon can be unleashed off half back. Lake and Shaggy back to full fitness, Wood doing the Harbrow run and carry thing when his fitness returns to optimum, Markovic and Morris providing the negating and it looks a better mix down back. Shame that the Hill and Stack experiments down back haven't works but they have been well worth a try. Talk of Picken and Addison running out of defence a-la Harbrow leave me thinking that the goal umpire's chiropractor will be the only winner out of that structure. Picko and DFA should be our crunch 'em forwards, Cross up there as well. Jones, Grant and Hall round out the forward line, as well as Coondog when he is not in the middle. Gia spends most of his time in the middle alongside Boyd, Libba and Ward, with Sherman used as the wide receiver, and Coons used in this role when his knee allows it.

Silk down back, grunt in the middle and manic intensity and contested marking ability up forward. Our season is not shot by a long way.


This is the best post of this thread!

DFA and Picken generally played up forward against Richmond, and we looked OK. Two tough nuts who will play a Max Rooke type game and are instructed to not let the ball to leave the F50. Picken also is a great set shot.

I think Rocket is hesitant to play Griff behind the ball because he doesnt want to Rob Peter to pay Pay by moving his B&F away from the midfield, but I think its required- to give us some pace in the B50, creativity, dash and dare.


How does the following look?

B: Morris Markovic Wood
HB: Hargrave Williams Murphy
C: Sherman Boyd Griffin
HF: Addison Jones Picken
F: Grant Hall Gia

R: Minson Ward Liberatore

I: Lake Cross Moles Higgins (S)

-Jones/Hall to ruck in the F50 and Minson to take the centre bounces and follow the ball in the midfield and backline

-Williams to ruck in the centre when Minson is resting

-Griffin to drop back into defense as a spare man / interchange with Murphy

-Gia, Picken, Addison to rotate between the F50 and the midfield. Sherman to have spells in the F50.

-Lake to play as a swingman this week and until his mind and body are 100%

-If Grant doesnt pull his finger out and chase, tackle and harrass this week then he needs a spell at Williamstown

[Mofra]

^ What I like about the above scenario is the one ruckman. I think we have to take the chance with Hawthorn and drop Hudson to give us the extra runner, given their depleted ruck stocks.
Against sides like Essendon, WCE and Geelong (and arguably Sydney) we wont have this luxury.

[ratsmac]

^ What I like about the above scenario is the one ruckman. I think we have to take the chance with Hawthorn and drop Hudson to give us the extra runner, given their depleted ruck stocks.
Against sides like Essendon, WCE and Geelong (and arguably Sydney) we wont have this luxury.

I know what your saying but why can't we exploit these teams by playing win one ruckman and with having extra runners? I'm not sure it works as we did find out in round 1. Maybe we have to try and exploit Hawthorn's ruck's by playing our 2 ruckmen like the Bombers did to us.

[Mantis]

I know what your saying but why can't we exploit these teams by playing win one ruckman and with having extra runners? I'm not sure it works as we did find out in round 1. Maybe we have to try and exploit Hawthorn's ruck's by playing our 2 ruckmen like the Bombers did to us.

If our ruckman were both in good form, I guess like in 2009 this would be an option, but Huddo looks to be struggling so we need to explore other options like what Mofra is proposing.

[Mofra]

If our ruckman were both in good form, I guess like in 2009 this would be an option, but Huddo looks to be struggling
Bingo - Essendon had Hille & Ryder who are more than competant KPPs (and they have even been playing Bellchambers with the two because of form).

Minson is "barely adequate" as a forward KPP, and Hudson wasn't much of a forward when he was in form (which he clearly isn't now).

I think Rocco will get his wish this year.

[bornadog]

Bingo - Essendon had Hille & Ryder who are more than competant KPPs (and they have even been playing Bellchambers with the two because of form).

Minson is "barely adequate" as a forward KPP, and Hudson wasn't much of a forward when he was in form (which he clearly isn't now).

I think Rocco will get his wish this year.

It worked against Richmond and we all thought Hudson was BOG. The two areas that the Hawks are vulnerable are Rucks and backline. They are using a ruckman who has played less than 10 games and had 3 kneee ops as wellas Roughhead as the second string. The backline is also missing their fullback as well as others, so they are short down there.

Lets make no mistake about last week that the rucks got smashed, but hey were were up against probably the most inform ruckman in the AFL including a former AA ruckman. They gave their midfield first use of the ball in that onslaught in the last 40 minutes of the game.

My only issue is with Hall back this week, can we have Hall, Jones, Grant and Minson or Hudson in the team.

[Ghost Dog]

You know what you're going to get with Boydy, outstanding clearance ability combined with licorice allsorts when it comes to disposal by foot. He has been absolutely outstanding in some games (Freo and Richmond in particular) and fair in others. When he rushes his kick out of congestion, it generally doesn't help the team at all, then you see him spear a laser pass into forward 50 like he did a couple of times against Richmond and you wish he would take more care when using the ball.

He is definitely missing Cooney in the middle, whise absence from the centre is placing too much pressure on Boyd to be both the inside ball winner and the clearance winner. Would comfortably be in the top 3 in B&F but I just wish he worked on hitting targets better - I get the feeling his ambition exceeds his ability when it comes to trying to spot up the perfect Nathan Buckley-esque kick to a forward 50 target. I'd like to see him kick a 50-50 to advantage more than try to decapitate worms en route to his intended target. To be fair to him, he is the least of our worries at the moment.

*applause* nice post
Some have noted that Gia would probably do just as well as Coons in the midfield.

[Mantis]

Some have noted that Gia would probably do just as well as Coons in the midfield.

How so?

[Ghost Dog]

How so?

How not?

[Mantis]

How not?

Because he is slow, Cooney isn't.

[Dazza]

Cooney at his best is very good. Steams away from packs and delivers well. Unfortunately this year he's lost that burst pace and his disposal has dropped well off. Having Gia in the middle adds a touch of class IMO. He seems to find space in contested situations and generally uses the ball well.

[Ghost Dog]

Because he is slow, Cooney isn't.

A FIT Cooney Mantis. Agreed
Anyway, Cooney's patella is flakey so he's out of the race.


Anyway, since when do you need to be fast to be a midfielder?
Boyd, Cross, Libba, Wallis. I'd wager Gia could keep or better any of these footsoldiers in the stawell gift.

[Mantis]

A FIT Cooney Mantis. Agreed
Anyway, Cooney's patella is flakey so he's out of the race.

Against Richmond Cooney contested 6 centre bounces. He cleared 4 of them with pace and his ball winning ability.

His pace has not been greatly affected by his knee injury, it's more his fitness and his ability to recover which has.


Anyway, since when do you need to be fast to be a midfielder?
Boyd, Cross, Libba, Wallis. I'd wager Gia could keep or better any of these footsoldiers in the stawell gift.

You need a point of difference within the team and adding Gia to the midfield rotation doesn't do this with our present line-up.

[Ghost Dog]

Against Richmond Cooney contested 6 centre bounces. He cleared 4 of them with pace and his ball winning ability.

His pace has not been greatly affected by his knee injury, it's more his fitness and his ability to recover which has.



You need a point of difference within the team and adding Gia to the midfield rotation doesn't do this with our present line-up.

Fair enough Mantis. Ideally, like to see Coons as more of an outside player, getting the pass more than having to be in and under.