Club Turning Point

[Jasper]

Coming off one of the worst losses in recent memory, against a team that was wooden spooner last year, I believe the club is at fork in the road. The club can rally not unlike Geelong when they were thrashed by the Pies a few years ago, or we can lie down like whipped dogs.

Personally believe a lot of careers will be determined in the next few weeks.

1 - Eade's abject failure in developing a workable tactic to beat or implement the press is Bailey like.

2 - Eades abject failure to achieve significant list improvement in our personnel is a a concern. Players like Stack, Hill, Addison, Williams, Grant, Ward and Higgins have been in the system for a while now and for a variety of reasons have not improved significantly. How they play from here on may well determine not only Eade's, but their own futures

3 - The club's list management over the last couple of years is cause for concern. Everyone knew our list was aging, but what have we done, drafted a few roughies, recruited top up players, and depth players like Djerkurra, Moles and Sherman

4 - Older players not performing will cop scrutiny, and their future will be decided.

5 - Younger players not performing either through injury or for other reasons will be scrutinised.

The season is nearly gone, and this was not something I expected this early.

The whole club should be on notice as of now. Positions must be reviewed. Strategies looked at players looked at, list development, coaching, and medical management all must be looked at. I will be interested to see what happens.

I fully expect that the Bulldogs will be in the gun this week from the media, and we deserve it.

[LostDoggy]

One thing I have been disappointed with is our conditioning staffs ability to increase players size and strength. Too many skinny guys are still skinny guys.. So time in the weights room is needed big time

[always right]

One thing I have been disappointed with is our conditioning staffs ability to increase players size and strength. Too many skinny guys are still skinny guys.. So time in the weights room is needed big time

Apart from Grant (who simply doesn't have the frame), who are you talking about?

[LostDoggy]

2 - Eades abject failure to achieve significant list improvement in our personnel is a a concern. Players like Stack, Hill, Addison, Williams, Grant, Ward and Higgins have been in the system for a while now and for a variety of reasons have not improved significantly. How they play from here on may well determine not only Eade's, but their own futures


Can't agree with that. We have seen improvement in all of those players. Ward just played his best game for the club last week.

[Jasper]

Can't agree with that. We have seen improvement in all of those players. Ward just played his best game for the club last week.

Yeah he may well have, but I recall some pretty good games when he first got to the club too. And if he getting to 'gun' status, where is the consistency?

[Rocco Jones]

1 - Eade's abject failure in developing a workable tactic to beat or implement the press is Bailey like.

Totally agree with that.

[LostDoggy]

At this time we just have to accept the reality that injuries have interrupted our season so far , this means we just havn't had the structure Rocket wanted , we have been forced to rotate young players with players coming back from injury , at the moment I,m waiting for the admittance that we are rebuilding for another crack at the finals next year, the chance to get more game time into Ward, Libba and Wallis , another pre-season into Jones, Howard, Tutt, Schofield, Dahlhous ,Skinner and Cordy will see our list rejuvenated , Panos is also in the mix as the longer term replacement for Hall

Today's result was awful but the future isn't bleak

.

[Ghost Dog]

Totally agree with that.

The failure to adapt quickly to the Sub rule is another warning bell.
While I hate the over emotional hyperbole that boils over after a bad loss, like a company, we are all stakeholders, and we all have a right to be as critical as we wish, within reason. Perhaps by using business speak- can help to stop me from over doing it.

A bad loss is one thing. But to see well paid staff who continually underperform frustrates. Shaun higgins is an investment that continues to give poor returns.:confused:

[Remi Moses]

Give me a break please ^^.attributing that shameful effort with injuries!
There's looking glass half full and being totally delusional.

[bresker]

Our injuries aren't that bad, really. A lot of clubs have suffered worse luck - look at Essendon with two ACLs in the same game. We haven't had many suspensions either.

I didn't see today's game but listened to it on ABC on the radio in the car. They were talking about Shuey running into acres of space without an opponent near him - this after he'd booted 4 or 5. What's going on?

[Charlie the Wonder Dog]

Give me a break please ^^.attributing that shameful effort with injuries!
There's looking glass half full and being totally delusional.

Unfortunately I have to agree.

While we have had a number of our more important players not available at different times this year, to lose in the manner we did, by the amount we did can only be attributed to a lack of effort.

Its getting very hard for me not to think that Rodney has taken us as far as he can.

[LostDoggy]

Give me a break please ^^.attributing that shameful effort with injuries!
There's looking glass half full and being totally delusional.

No delusions here sunshine , read the post again properly !!!

yes, the players on the park today did'nt all perform to the standard required but the structure we had was as a result of injuries

In my post I never mentioned today at all !!!

I,m looking at the future not today !!!

.

[Ghost Dog]

Rocket has said " players were not following instructions" yes?
Ok, we'll I'm a teacher. at times I get frustrated with students. I tell them something
and they don't seem to listen. Time to step back and reflect. Am I telling them in the right way?
Onus is on him to make sure players get the message. If they don't, he has to cop it sweet. Part of the blame may be with certain individuals. But, The buck stops with him and the other coaches I'm afraid.

[MrMahatma]

I kind of think our list is OK. I just think they either can't follow instructions, or they are getting bad instructions.

If it's the former, then we need to take a 0 tollerance policy (and should've a long time ago) - in which case the buck stops with Eade. If it's the later, then, well... the buck stops with Eade.

[LostDoggy]

I've often heard comments such as "will that player be part of your next GF/premiership side?".

I'm not shattered about todays result. I think it's the earthquake that may give birth to a new generation of Bulldog players and new dawn fo the club. A Phoenix rising.

Happy about the future because i can see changes coming.

[bornadog]

1 - Eade's abject failure in developing a workable tactic to beat or implement the press is Bailey like. .
How many coaches have worked out how to beat the forward press?


2 - Eades abject failure to achieve significant list improvement in our personnel is a a concern. Players like Stack, Hill, Addison, Williams, Grant, Ward and Higgins have been in the system for a while now and for a variety of reasons have not improved significantly. How they play from here on may well determine not only Eade's, but their own futures
.
These guys are all young and still have plenty of improvement. I bet you were one praising Wards brilliance last week.


3 - The club's list management over the last couple of years is cause for concern. Everyone knew our list was aging, but what have we done, drafted a few roughies, recruited top up players, and depth players like Djerkurra, Moles and Sherman.
Thats rubbish, the last two years we have debuted at least 8 new players and today we had 9 players with less than 50 games. There are others that are yet to debut and look like exciting prospects.


4 - Older players not performing will cop scrutiny, and their future will be decided.
.
Agree and so they should. Today, Murphy, Gilbee, Williams, Higgins all had less than 10 possessions. Throw in the young guys like Jones and Grant as well


The whole club should be on notice as of now. Positions must be reviewed. Strategies looked at players looked at, list development, coaching, and medical management all must be looked at. I will be interested to see what happens. .
There is a review every year.

[Ghost Dog]

I've often heard comments such as "will that player be part of your next GF/premiership side?".

I'm not shattered about todays result. I think it's the earthquake that may give birth to a new generation of Bulldog players and new dawn fo the club. A Phoenix rising.

Happy about the future because i can see changes coming.

LoL. New Dawns, phoenix rising. Am I in a pure blonde commercial?

Maybe you can explain this a little. If it were 20 or 30 points I could understand.
But that's a terrible loss with senior players going missing and a coach totally outplayed. I'm not shattered, but more or less feel dull about it. Am really concerned about morale at the club and particularly communication. When you have a coach who says ' players are not doing what I say' that's a huge cause for concern in any team environment.
What changes, do you see 'over the rainbow' that give you cause for such optimism?

[Jasper]

How many coaches have worked out how to beat the forward press?

These guys are all young and still have plenty of improvement. I bet you were one praising Wards brilliance last week.

Thats rubbish, the last two years we have debuted at least 8 new players and today we had 9 players with less than 50 games. There are others that are yet to debut and look like exciting prospects.

Agree and so they should. Today, Murphy, Gilbee, Williams, Higgins all had less than 10 possessions. Throw in the young guys like Jones and Grant as well

There is a review every year.


Geelong beat the press, when they beat the Pies. WC and Bombers have radically changed game style in off season and implemented press. What have we done - zip

It is not 'rubbish' that most of our best 22 are over 27.

It is not rubbish that we recruited ordinary players such as Djerkurra, Moles and Vezpremi. And Ward's odd good game does not counter balance the crap ones, if I enjoyed Ward's good game that does not take away from my argument. And the list's development has been poor

Care to tell me the results of last year's review?

[Dancin' Douggy]

I've often heard comments such as "will that player be part of your next GF/premiership side?".

I'm not shattered about todays result. I think it's the earthquake that may give birth to a new generation of Bulldog players and new dawn fo the club. A Phoenix rising.

Happy about the future because i can see changes coming.

I've had a gutful of phoenixes.

[KT31]

Give me a break please ^^.attributing that shameful effort with injuries!
There's looking glass half full and being totally delusional.

Agree it was a pitiful effort and we certainly are not the side we have been led to believe.
But take a Brownlow medalist, all Australian Full forward and fullback out of side will tear it apart.
Not saying we would have won but at least those three have always put up a fight for us.

[immortalmike]

Agree it was a pitiful effort and we certainly are not the side we have been led to believe.
But take a Brownlow medalist, all Australian Full forward and fullback out of side will tear it apart.
Not saying we would have won but at least those three have always put up a fight for us.

Unfortunately today with Bazza it may well have been a physical fight.

[boydogs]

What's the turning point/fork in the road?

Clearly Eade has some work to do to get the players following instructions & to combat the top sides who implement zones & presses well, is the turning point whether he stays on?

3 prelims in a row, I reckon he has earnt the chance to try and bounce back.

[Remi Moses]

Kelvinator's point on not being to implement or beat the press is spot on!

[Remi Moses]

No delusions here sunshine , read the post again properly !!!

yes, the players on the park today did'nt all perform to the standard required but the structure we had was as a result of injuries

In my post I never mentioned today at all !!!

I,m looking at the future not today !!!

.

No doubt the injuries to key players have hurt . But honestly that effort was inexcusable and the result was an absolute disgrace! It's alright for folk to talk about the future but we're a much better team than the Shite that was dished out today

[chef]

How many coaches have worked out how to beat the forward press?

Even Worsfold(a stubborn man on man coach) has seen the light and implemented one.

[LostDoggy]

LoL. New Dawns, phoenix rising. Am I in a pure blonde commercial?

Maybe you can explain this a little. If it were 20 or 30 points I could understand.
But that's a terrible loss with senior players going missing and a coach totally outplayed. I'm not shattered, but more or less feel dull about it. Am really concerned about morale at the club and particularly communication. When you have a coach who says ' players are not doing what I say' that's a huge cause for concern in any team environment.
What changes, do you see 'over the rainbow' that give you cause for such optimism?

GD, i've put up with our bullshit for my entire life supporting the bulldogs, and many of you posters are much older than myself so have gone through much more heartache.

Would you have preferred i used words and phrases such as dark days, failures, born losers, pathetic etc etc?

It was an optimistic post with a positive view on the future (however mislead that may be). I didn't feel like adding to the deserved vitriol from many posters last night, been there before many times.

[LostDoggy]

I've had a gutful of phoenixes.

So have i mate, maybe the non-questioning acceptance that over-arches this forum has rubbed off on me since i've been here. I'll be more critical in future hopefully :)

[LostDoggy]

One week its a good performance.
The next week its a humiliating loss.
Where is the consistancy!?

[bornadog]

Even Worsfold(a stubborn man on man coach) has seen the light and implemented one.

You have to have the players to implement it. We don't.

[the banker]

At this time we just have to accept the reality that injuries have interrupted our season so far , this means we just havn't had the structure Rocket wanted , we have been forced to rotate young players with players coming back from injury , at the moment I,m waiting for the admittance that we are rebuilding for another crack at the finals next year, the chance to get more game time into Ward, Libba and Wallis , another pre-season into Jones, Howard, Tutt, Schofield, Dahlhous ,Skinner and Cordy will see our list rejuvenated , Panos is also in the mix as the longer term replacement for Hall

Today's result was awful but the future isn't bleak

.

Even for an optimist like me, at the start of the season, I thought we may have to take a step back to take a step forward next year. Grant, Jones, Roughead, Ward, Wood, Libba, Wallis and Schofield needed another 12 months to become genuine players. Hadn't seen enough of Howard and Tutt.

The side was built around Lake and Morris, Cooney, Griffen and Boyd and Hall. Some would say that Lake, Cooney and Hall are our three most valuable players (apologies Griffen). To not have the three of them up and about I think has really exposed us, and put pressure on other players who have not quite been up to it. I think this is a resonable excuse for our season status ATM. Take Scarlett, Selwood and Bartel out of Geelong and the close games they have won would probably be lost and their season looking different to what it currently is. (Would not expect a capitulation like Sunday's from them though).
With Lake, Cooney and Hall fit and in form we could ahve expected to win the Freo and Swans games.

Also the fixture has been very challenging for us. Playing 2 games at Patersons, Manuka, 16 day breaks, 6 day breaks etc.

These are the challenges that we have failed to meet.

The coaching staff don't seem to have a plan to defeat the press, we have looked completely overwhelmed by Essendon, last quarter Collingwood and Eagles.

The situation will be the greatest test for the belief the coaches and players have in each other. If they cannot stick together as a group then lots of the good things achieved over the past 4 years will be spun negatively.

Obviously the winds of change are blowing.

[Ozza]

You have to have the players to implement it. We don't.

I have to disagree with this. Coming into this season - we had been in 3 prelim's in a row. Surely we are entitled to think we have the players that can implement a strategy to keep up to speed with how the current game is being played.

[Ghost Dog]

GD, i've put up with our bullshit for my entire life supporting the bulldogs, and many of you posters are much older than myself so have gone through much more heartache.

Would you have preferred i used words and phrases such as dark days, failures, born losers, pathetic etc etc?

It was an optimistic post with a positive view on the future (however mislead that may be). I didn't feel like adding to the deserved vitriol from many posters last night, been there before many times.

It's cool MRM I wasn't having a pot. I enjoyed reading the post. I just thought it was rather funny wording. I was interested to hear more about your views. So you feel we are a club on the rise, and agreed, there is cause for optimism. I feel Libba, Wallis and Marco are going to give it all they have as they are long time fans, in their blood. How about you? What gives you a bit of hope at the moment?

[LongWait]

I have to disagree with this. Coming into this season - we had been in 3 prelim's in a row. Surely we are entitled to think we have the players that can implement a strategy to keep up to speed with how the current game is being played.

Playing in three Prelims in a row without making the Grand Final, much less winning one, should also be seen for what it was... a failure to achieve our objective. We were still two steps away from our goal and repeatedly came up short.

Rocket has been criticised for a couple of years for our non-competitive game plan. That plan is a large part of the reason we repeatedly failed to defeat top sides.

This season's performance merely confirms that Rocket is a one-trick pony and the trick is not really that good, and certainly with the continued evolution and perfection of the press, the trick is in fact embarrasing.

If Rocket demonstrated a capacity to develop a credible alternative game plan and if he showed that he could get the players to commit to and execute that plan...then I'd be happy for Rocket to continue and rebuild the team. Otherwise he has to go. Rocket has 14 games to resurrect and reinvent the team he built.

[Maddog37]

I am trying to avoid posting too soon after that pathetic, shameful display but I hope I will feel better by venting so bear with me. I will go in point form.

Williams not even putting his hands up on the mark. A perfect illustration of his lack of understanding of the game and what that simple act signifies to the opposition and your team. I am a Tommy fan but when he looks bad he looks real bad. Maybe a run up forward????

Darling kicks a goal and runs back to CHF laughing and smiling and giving high fives for about thirty metres. Someone please bump him or at least stop his private party by getting in his face. The horse may have bolted but you cannot let them run around giggling with each other after every goal. A bit of unsociable football does not go astray here and there.

Boyd as captain reminds me of Vandenberg(b grader) at the Hawks. A transitional captain until a Mitchell/Hodge(a Grader) comes along. He cannot lift the team. He tries hard and is tough but he cannot do what is needed when it is needed. Break the lines, kick that goal etc. I know Harley and Maxwell etc are examples of this not always being an issue but I feel it is for us.

I respect what Rocket has done and especially in regards to playing the kids this year (although this may actually be forced due to the scarily quick decline in our older core players and injuries) but his messaage is not getting across. The players are not playing for each other or the jumper. Is their a rift between the players and the coach or groups of players. Either way he needs to sort it out or fall on his sword.

Sorry to just bring complaints to the table rather than ideas/options but after that display I seriously think that something is drastically wrong at our club.

[LostDoggy]

We all know why Eade has the nickname "Rocket": He's well known for giving a brutal spray, and you used to see players turn it around after a spray. Not any more.

Is there any chance that his words no longer hit a nerve with the players, and the message just isn't getting through, either because they don't want to hear it, or they've lost respect? There's something not quite right going on behind the scenes.

[LostDoggy]

It's cool MRM I wasn't having a pot. I enjoyed reading the post. I just thought it was rather funny wording. I was interested to hear more about your views. So you feel we are a club on the rise, and agreed, there is cause for optimism. I feel Libba, Wallis and Marco are going to give it all they have as they are long time fans, in their blood. How about you? What gives you a bit of hope at the moment?

In the last three seasons i've been able to attend many more Williamstown games due to my proximity to Willy/Werribee. I've always been a grassroots/suburban football fan so i've it's enabled me to watch the young kids coming through more thoroughly than just relying on hearsay.

There's no need to comment on Wallis/Libba. They were givens as they've been around the system for two seasons now as people know before they were drafted (since they were born actually when you think about it).

Seeing Dalhaus attack, seeing the improvement of a finally fit Mulligan, seeing Howard and Tutt finding their feet after slows starts due to injury/adjusting to differing levels of game pace, having Panos change his bodyshape and become a focal point down forward - that's what gives me hope - not necessarily that this young group will lead us to a GF, but that there are new names that will come through and give us change. I just don't want to see this bunch of 150-200 gamers drop away from going a season too long like BJ.

I appreciate what Eade has done, and i think it's been a great job on the whole, but the Eagles game appears to me to be an irrecoverable wound that his future coaching career with us won't recover from. That remains to be seen but i'd think many would believe this to be correct...another change, a new broom (to borrow from Mark Stevens from memory)

The Bulldoze the Debt. It's a roadblock thers's no doubt. Already 20-25% of that wiped from what i read. Fantastic work.

The new facilities, thank you Mr Howard and the hard work done by the campaigners behind securing that funding.

Change

[bornadog]

We all know why Eade has the nickname "Rocket": He's well known for giving a brutal spray, and you used to see players turn it around after a spray. Not any more.

Is there any chance that his words no longer hit a nerve with the players, and the message just isn't getting through, either because they don't want to hear it, or they've lost respect? There's something not quite right going on behind the scenes.

How about the players take some responsibilty for this. They should be ashame of themselves. Guys like Murphy, Gilbee, Higgins, Grant who only had 20 disposals between the lot of them.

[LostDoggy]

How about the players take some responsibilty for this. They should be ashame of themselves. Guys like Murphy, Gilbee, Higgins, Grant who only had 20 disposals between the lot of them.

Totally agree with you BAD, there's been some ordinary leadership of late. I'm just wondering if Rocket can't get through to his players any more, that's all.

We've put up a few below par performances this year which suggests that maybe the point's not getting across, or they simply just aren't willing to listen.

[LostDoggy]

As a group of players we are not good enough at contested footy. We are doomed by teams that outrun us over 10 metres, by teams that employ super quick movement of the ball to a player who releases with quick decision making in close that is largely accurate. The all out attempt to get the ball free is successful when the hand / eye / peripheral vision skills are finely honed and there are enough players in support. This can be achieved by all the players working harder to help out, knowing who and when to go in to a contest, and who and where to stay out. Players who are prepared to work harder all the game to follow the team plan and get numbers to every contest.

I thought yesterday we were not physically strong enough against a bigger team, we were not up to the task of manning up (not fit enough? not disciplined enough?), we couldn't keep up with their players on the burst, and we were not disciplined enough to set up effectively in packs. We didn't win many one on one contests.

In short, we have struggled with defensive football for some years now; we are simply not good enough to consistently carry out a plan to defeat the forward press as applied by sides that have both very mobile taller players and skilful, disciplined burst players (or inside/outside players like Kerr) .

[GVGjr]

You have to have the players to implement it. We don't.

We recruit the players don't we and then we select the team. We can certainly blame the players if they don't do as asked but who has been dropped because they have failed to execute the instructions they were given?

[bornadog]

We recruit the players don't we and then we select the team. We can certainly blame the players if they don't do as asked but who has been dropped because they have failed to execute the instructions they were given?

We have made an average of 4 changes per week and we have debuted 4 or 5 new players this year, we are playing with 9 players with less than 50 games experience every week and we have had 4 minimum injures every week. So, who else do we bring in that has been showing promise at Willi and hasn't had a chance? You go to most Willi games so you can help answer this one?

This is a genuine question not a smart aleck post, because I can't see who else should get a game based on form?

[Kelso @ Mt Eliza]

Geelong beat the press, when they beat the Pies. WC and Bombers have radically changed game style in off season and implemented press. What have we done - zip

It is not 'rubbish' that most of our best 22 are over 27.

It is not rubbish that we recruited ordinary players such as Djerkurra, Moles and Vezpremi. And Ward's odd good game does not counter balance the crap ones, if I enjoyed Ward's good game that does not take away from my argument. And the list's development has been poor

Care to tell me the results of last year's review?

i'm with you Kelvinator - Bornadog seems to be in denial - coupled with trying to defend the indefensible.
There seem to be a few like minded supporters in this forum site who continue to play the measured and deliberated response under the guise of looking at the bigger picture.. enough i say..
As hard nosed and passionate supporters.. we must be vocal in our disapproval.. it is time to be more proactive, more assertive and ask the hard questions.. not retreat back into the shell of submission.
It is abundantly clear that a new coach is required - if we don't start the ball rolling on this in the next week it will serve to further demonstrate the ineffective management of our great club.. I hope I am wrong.. and change is implemented swiftly..
What we should all be talking about right now is WHO IS GOING TO BE THE NEXT BULLDOGS COACH - START A POST ON THIS PLEASE....

[bornadog]

i'm with you Kelvinator - Bornadog seems to be in denial - coupled with trying to defend the indefensible.

Show me where I am in denial? I am not trying to defend a 20 goal thrashing, thats impossible, I am trying to be realistic and not talk rubbish.

I just don't agree with Kelivantors emotional post, that doesnot make me in denial.

[chef]

You have to have the players to implement it. We don't.

WCE's forward press is full of giants, we have the players to do it just not the intent or coaching nous to implement it.

TBH we seem to be playing the same footy we played in 2008 and the rest of the competition has gone past us.

[chef]

I have to disagree with this. Coming into this season - we had been in 3 prelim's in a row. Surely we are entitled to think we have the players that can implement a strategy to keep up to speed with how the current game is being played.

Sadly I think the game may have gone past Rocket as well as a few senior players:(. Time for a change.

Has Cameron been a huge loss for our footy team?

[bornadog]

WCE's forward press is full of giants, we have the players to do it just not the intent or coaching nous to implement it.

TBH we seem to be playing the same footy we played in 2008 and the rest of the competition has gone past us.

Their giants are quicker than ours. Our forward line pressure is almost non existant, we are 14th for average tackles inside 50's. I don't think we have the right type of players to play a forward press like the Collingwoods, Geelongs and West Coasts. Maybe we don't have the discipline as well.

We need to find a brand of football to beat the press, not replicate it. In my opinion, the forward press is unsustainable by a team, and by that I mean it wears the players out and eventually they find it hard to keep up week after week. Look at the Saints. Even Collingwood are looking vunerable with their press. The Hawks after 2008 couldn't sustain their zones as its hard work and taxing on the players.

Its ideal for Geelong as they have the best backline in the AFL and have had so for the past 5 seasons.

[chef]

Their giants are quicker than ours. Our forward line pressure is almost non existant, we are 14th for average tackles inside 50's. I don't think we have the right type of players to play a forward press like the Collingwoods, Geelongs and West Coasts. Maybe we don't have the discipline as well.

We need to find a brand of football to beat the press, not replicate it. In my opinion, the forward press is unsustainable by a team, and by that I mean it wears the players out and eventually they find it hard to keep up week after week. Look at the Saints. Even Collingwood are looking vunerable with their press. The Hawks after 2008 couldn't sustain their zones as its hard work and taxing on the players.

Its ideal for Geelong as they have the best backline in the AFL and have had so for the past 5 seasons.

:confused:It's got nothing to do with speed, it's all about intent and training.

[bornadog]

:confused:It's got nothing to do with speed, it's all about intent and training.

So forwards chasing down a backman and having intent will catch their opponnent? Surely the forward line needs pace to chase and tackle?

[chef]

So forwards chasing down a backman and having intent will catch their opponnent? Surely the forward line needs pace to chase and tackle?

It's more about closing the space and having intensity for the contest. St Kilda's forward line has never been quick.

[Greystache]

So forwards chasing down a backman and having intent will catch their opponnent? Surely the forward line needs pace to chase and tackle?

A press isn't working if the forwards are chasing the defenders from behind, it's about pushing up and blocking their space to run into, thereby either forcing them to take on the tackler and getting pinned or forcing them to kick to an outnumbered target. Sounds familiar doesn't it?

You don't need to be quick to do it, you just have to be committed to it and tackle with intent, we don't do either.

[Ghost Dog]

:confused:It's got nothing to do with speed, it's all about intent and training.

Rocket disagrees. At the start of the season he claimed that this style of play was based on speed. So who's wrong? Maybe both are a bit right. Don't ask me.

[chef]

Rocket disagrees. At the start of the season he claimed that this style of play was based on speed. So who's wrong? Maybe both are a bit right. Don't ask me.

If that's what he thinks(which I would hope he doesn't) then he has no idea. The forward press isn't built on speed.

[LostDoggy]

A 123 point thrashing i expect in the country leagues, not this crap from a AFL senior side. My chiroprator made a good comment today about Essendon, the list is nearly the same but the change of coaching staff has improved the clubs fortune on the field. Like what a previous post commented on that maybe the Rocket spray is no longer valid to the players.

[GVGjr]

We have made an average of 4 changes per week and we have debuted 4 or 5 new players this year, we are playing with 9 players with less than 50 games experience every week and we have had 4 minimum injures every week. So, who else do we bring in that has been showing promise at Willi and hasn't had a chance? You go to most Willi games so you can help answer this one?

This is a genuine question not a smart aleck post, because I can't see who else should get a game based on form?


I agree that we have rung many of the changes due to injuries but also not necessarily because we have bitten the bullet and dropped a high profile player because he didn't follow instructions or the team rules.

If we don't have the depth and quality of the players to promote it has to come back to not being prudent with our list management for a few season or our player development programmes aren't good enough. In reality it's probably a combination of the two.

By the way, I'm not sure form at Williamstown is the thing that gets players promoted but it is a shame that guys like Mulligan and Hooper haven't been knocking the door down.

[Ghost Dog]

Dammit. We need that fat boxing coach back. Eye of the tiger stuff. What was his name? That guy was ace.
Bloody cheating blues. Pinching our fat boxing coaches.

[AndrewP6]

Dammit. We need that fat boxing coach back. Eye of the tiger stuff. What was his name? That guy was ace.
Bloody cheating blues. Pinching our fat boxing coaches.

Tim Smith.

[Go_Dogs]

If we don't have the depth and quality of the players to promote it has to come back to not being prudent with our list management for a few season or our player development programmes aren't good enough. In reality it's probably a combination of the two.

With the ELC etc we have great quality resources, we've also had a number of well regarded assistants alongside Rocket over his time with the club. My perception is we're still some way off the development capabilities of clubs like Collingwood, but pre-Hird Essendon's didn't look good (both in the later Sheedy years and with Knights), WCE seem to be getting a lot more out of much the same list as last year too.

Perhaps the latter 2 are just benefiting from a number of young guys getting to that 50+ games experience level, I really don't know. But if you don't want to bottom out for an extended period I think you simply must try to bring 3 new players into the 22 each year to build experience with enough support around and keep the list turning over.

Going back to 05, we've really only got Higgins (yet to play 100 games), Addison 50 odd, Grant 30 odd, Ward nearly 50, Hill 60 odd, Picken 50 odd, and then less than a 80 games between all of Cordy, Roughead, Jones, Stack, Wood, Reid, Hooper, Howard, Tutt, Mulligan, Moles etc. I guess you can add this years picks, plus DJ and Vez to the list as well.

That's 6 players who have played "enough" games over the past 5 seasons. It doesn't paint a good picture of our list management/development. That being said, we've been fairly successful over the past 3 years which works against developing new players, but Collingwood and now Geelong have done it very well but both have had yearly dips during their extended periods of being contenders.

Sorry to all for the long winded post.

[bornadog]

By the way, I'm not sure form at Williamstown is the thing that gets players promoted but it is a shame that guys like Mulligan and Hooper haven't been knocking the door down.

Well if this sort of loss continues, I would be bringing in Mulligan, Hooper, Howard, Tutt, Schofield and maybe even Cordy at some stage this year and throw them in the deep end and sink or swim.

[Stefcep]

In all honesty this team has been playing horrible football all season.

Even last season i felt there was a large element of chaos and luck to our style of play.

Yesterday all of this was exposed.

There is something really bad at the club right now: the players, the coach, the management, don't know, but in this day and age with salary caps, priority recruiting all levelling-out the league, 20 goal defeats just should not happen.

[AndrewP6]

In all honesty this team has been playing horrible football all season.

Even last season i felt there was a large element of chaos and luck to our style of play.

Yesterday all of this was exposed.

There is something really bad at the club right now: the players, the coach, the management, don't know, but in this day and age with salary caps, priority recruiting all levelling-out the league, 20 goal defeats just should not happen.

Levelling it in favour of GC and GWS ;)

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Even for an optimist like me, at the start of the season, I thought we may have to take a step back to take a step forward next year. Grant, Jones, Roughead, Ward, Wood, Libba, Wallis and Schofield needed another 12 months to become genuine players. Hadn't seen enough of Howard and Tutt.

The side was built around Lake and Morris, Cooney, Griffen and Boyd and Hall. Some would say that Lake, Cooney and Hall are our three most valuable players (apologies Griffen). To not have the three of them up and about I think has really exposed us, and put pressure on other players who have not quite been up to it. I think this is a resonable excuse for our season status ATM. Take Scarlett, Selwood and Bartel out of Geelong and the close games they have won would probably be lost and their season looking different to what it currently is. (Would not expect a capitulation like Sunday's from them though).
With Lake, Cooney and Hall fit and in form we could ahve expected to win the Freo and Swans games.

Also the fixture has been very challenging for us. Playing 2 games at Patersons, Manuka, 16 day breaks, 6 day breaks etc.

These are the challenges that we have failed to meet.

The coaching staff don't seem to have a plan to defeat the press, we have looked completely overwhelmed by Essendon, last quarter Collingwood and Eagles.

The situation will be the greatest test for the belief the coaches and players have in each other. If they cannot stick together as a group then lots of the good things achieved over the past 4 years will be spun negatively.

Obviously the winds of change are blowing.

This is a good summation. I would have added Murphy to the list that the side has been built around. The sudden demise of Gilbee, (save for the Richmond game), Giansircusa and Grant who showed so much promise last year have been major concerns. Minson needs to takeover as number one ruckman. Hudson's lack of spring and mobility against West Coast, continually gave them first use of the ball. I am still not convinced about both Williams and Markovic who were both hopeless against the Eagles. I saw enough of Mulligan for Williamstown at the weekend to suggest he deserves a chance as a key defender. Higgins is still a concern as he rarely plays two good games in a row. I strongly believe that in the team that took the field against West Coast, at least 6 of the players are not up to standard. I could add a couple more who simply hang on through lack of depth in our list. As you indicated the loss of Hall, Lake and Cooney is huge given their obvious talent. Wood and Hargrave are both underdone which is a concern. I would bring in both Wallis and Mulligan, who I believe are better than some of those getting games.

[LostDoggy]

I feel that the Club is still in denial. I think supporters are screaming blood the kids and to hell with the old blokes they have had there day. But something tells me the Club is not there yet. One poor performance doesn't make a bad season but this could get really ugly.

This week we will be competitive because I know we play Etihad fairly well and it suits our slower leg speed but on the bigger grounds we are going to get some big hidings this year.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

did anyone else hear about the dogs being down on the pier this morning for some rutheless, grueling training with bricks, ropes etc?? i heard a report on the radio but haven't heard anything since.....hope its true they need a grilling!

[Scorlibo]

Higgins is still a concern as he rarely plays two good games in a row.

Everyone is being way too harsh on Higgins. His biggest problem remains that he is injury prone. This was his first game back from injury so we have to cut him some slack even if he was a non-contributor. Before getting injured he had not dropped below 22 disposals for a game and was averaging 3 scoring shots per game. He was also averaging over 100 ranking points, making him one of our best 5 or so players over the first four games.

[LostDoggy]

Do we realisitically look at our list of injured players and chose not to play them until they are as close to 100% fit as the coaching staff can discern? As commonsense as this sounds it has not happened in the past. We've all seen and just waited for player x to pull up short due to being rushed back into the side.

Hall, Higgins, Cooney, Williams, Hargrave, Wood, Lake etc. All have played with inury or lack of match fitness at stages already this season.

We play youngsters, perhaps out of position, but to fill the void temporarily. This will give them experience and give these players time to recover on the sidelines or at Williamstown.

If this is the way forward then perhaps we can aim to make a charge at the finals should results go our way and the younger players can stand up. Players are at least played on fitness merit and we don't risk extending a break on the sidelines after only a game or so. If we don't make the finals then we have blooded a few more younger players that realistically weren't going to get many, if any, games this season and given them experience moving forward.

[the banker]

This is a good summation. I would have added Murphy to the list that the side has been built around. The sudden demise of Gilbee, (save for the Richmond game), Giansircusa and Grant who showed so much promise last year have been major concerns. Minson needs to takeover as number one ruckman. Hudson's lack of spring and mobility against West Coast, continually gave them first use of the ball. I am still not convinced about both Williams and Markovic who were both hopeless against the Eagles. I saw enough of Mulligan for Williamstown at the weekend to suggest he deserves a chance as a key defender. Higgins is still a concern as he rarely plays two good games in a row. I strongly believe that in the team that took the field against West Coast, at least 6 of the players are not up to standard. I could add a couple more who simply hang on through lack of depth in our list. As you indicated the loss of Hall, Lake and Cooney is huge given their obvious talent. Wood and Hargrave are both underdone which is a concern. I would bring in both Wallis and Mulligan, who I believe are better than some of those getting games.

Haven't seen Mulligan, but I am in agreement on this.

[bornadog]

This is a good summation. I would have added Murphy to the list that the side has been built around. The sudden demise of Gilbee, (save for the Richmond game), Giansircusa and Grant who showed so much promise last year have been major concerns. .

Sorry, I have to disagree with you on Gia. I think he is in good form this year although patchy in some quarters. He is averaging 17 disposals per game, he is ranked 3rd on goal assists behind Boyd and Griffen and 3rd with tackles inside 50 and 4th in goals kicked. He is doing everything expected of him for a HFF.

[soupman]

Sorry, I have to disagree with you on Gia. I think he is in good form this year although patchy in some quarters. He is averaging 17 disposals per game, he is ranked 3rd on goal assists behind Boyd and Griffen and 3rd with tackles inside 50 and 4th in goals kicked. He is doing everything expected of him for a HFF.

I generally agree. On the weekend he did the best he could from the shithouse delivery we occasionally got up forward. He didn't play well but he wasn't the worst. Other blokes like Gilbee are in much bigger trouble.

[LostDoggy]

I generally agree. On the weekend he did the best he could from the shithouse delivery we occasionally got up forward. He didn't play well but he wasn't the worst. Other blokes like Gilbee are in much bigger trouble.

I put Gia and Gilbee in the same boat. Both are battling for there football lives.

[soupman]

I put Gia and Gilbee in the same boat. Both are battling for there football lives.

Same. Except Gilbee is drowning while Gia is still alright.

[LostDoggy]

Same. Except Gilbee is drowning while Gia is still alright.

Not sure the last time Gia kicked 6 but I would think that Gilbee is a lot more versatile than Gia. Both have there faults. Both are getting on. Both are to slow for the modern game. I really fail to see how one is any less trouble than the other. But these are only opinions after all.

[Desipura]

Sorry, I have to disagree with you on Gia. I think he is in good form this year although patchy in some quarters. He is averaging 17 disposals per game, he is ranked 3rd on goal assists behind Boyd and Griffen and 3rd with tackles inside 50 and 4th in goals kicked. He is doing everything expected of him for a HFF.

Give me a break, how is he influencing a game of footy? He is supposed to be a leader. How are his 2nd and 3rd efforts and defensive pressure. How many times has he taken his opponent on to create a 2 on 1 situation?

[bornadog]

Give me a break, how is he influencing a game of footy?

By creating goals ..............better than anyone else in the forward line.

[LostDoggy]

By creating goals ..............better than anyone else in the forward line.
Here Here !

[soupman]

Not sure the last time Gia kicked 6 but I would think that Gilbee is a lot more versatile than Gia. Both have there faults. Both are getting on. Both are to slow for the modern game. I really fail to see how one is any less trouble than the other. But these are only opinions after all.

IMO Gilbee is in more trouble because he doesn't have a role we can count on him to play. Giansiracusa every week will set up or kick multiple goals. Contrary to popular opinion he is not a downhill skiier (we played like absolute shit on the weekend and yet he was involved with 3 or 4 goals), and he does add something to the side as a leader from players opinions. He isn't the bash and crash, take the match by the scruff of the neck leader we all want but he is a hard working, great assist player in our forwardline. And who takes his spot? Veszpremi is the only candidate and he's in the Williamstown reserves side atm.

Gilbee however isn't as good a field kick as he once was, doesn't get enough of the footy at half back or up forward, doesn't offer enough defensive pressure and apart from one game against Richmond has been poor over the last year. He is also competing with the likes of Hill, Wood and Stack for the half back spot.

I'm not saying Gia is untouchable and Gilbee is gone, but I think Gia is much more important to us than Gilbee.

[Desipura]

By creating goals ..............better than anyone else in the forward line.

We overrate our own players, this is a point in case. The game is faster and you need to have the ability to break a tackle and run away from your opponent. You also have to apply enough Pressure so your opponent can turn it over or at least kick to a 50/50. I don't see Gia being able to do this anymore.

[LostDoggy]

We underate some of our players

[SonofScray]

I think both need to be looked at, but for slightly different reasons.

Gilbee's main strength was his kicking and ability to win one on one contests, link up with the crumber and really give us some drive from half back. In the past two seasons that skill set has declined. He showed against Richmond he can play a role somewhere, but I've lost a lot of confidence in his ability. Certainly not an elite player anymore. Probably getting an easy ride due to our conservatism at the selectors table.

Gia does a lot of little things well, he doesn't do the hard stuff we love, but he has subtle impacts on the game like being a link in a scoring chain etc. I don't rate his leadership, see very little of it in the way he plays the game. His form is down, but he has positioned himself quite well as an 'untouchable.'

[LostDoggy]

Question: If a player kicked six goals, playing out of position in a game, why would they then start the next week straight back into their old position, which they've failed to have an impact in for an extended period of time ?

If the game plan was going to shit, like it did, then by all means put them back, but even with Higgins coming back in you'd have though there was still a spot there for Gilbee.

Another question: If a team is getting smashed, staying within reach, but nothing looks like changing would you consider drastically changing the positional setup of players. Playing players in different positions (like Gilbee last week) to try to create a break in the game, make the opposition think for 10-15 mins and give yourselves a chance to get back to a winnign position both mentally and on the scoreboard?

[Desipura]

We underate some of our players
Gia has been a very good player who will have played 200 games of AFL. Not many players get to do that, great skills and can kick goals.
The time comes when your time in the game is up, Gia's time is now. He is not alone and that is no shame as he has been a wonderful servant along with Huddo, Cross, Gilbee (one of my favourites), Hall to name a few. We do not want another situation like Eagleton and Johnno where we are playing players that no longer have the capabilities of playing AFL due to the game passing them by.

[Mofra]

By creating goals ..............better than anyone else in the forward line.
He is not in last year's form, but he was one player who ran harder than anyone else in the forwardline. We are struggling on the HF line and we want to get rid of the bloke who keeps presenting? Not convinced.

Ditto Jones - the only bloke who seems to have advanced his reputation this year, just gives us a target every time. Our only non-debutant who has improved. I note he did get dropped, so it is a tactic that does help some guys respond.

We have bigger fish to fry. Hudson looks like he is slowing badly, he gave away a number of frees in the first half because he appeared concerned at the pace and breakaway ability of his oppoosition rucks at the stoppages. Not so much is this his last season, but can he last the season?

Gilbee is (gulp) near enough to cooked - his pace is deserting him, his kicking reminds me of Rohan Smith post 30 (lost 5-20m of penetration) and his defensive work his lost it's edge.

Grant has gone backwards this year - seems to have lost hunger.
Williams looked good at times last year and was flying pre-season, but his output has been below what we'd expect.

I'm close to ruling a line through Hall's name as well - his lack of defensive efforts are a worry (we can't afford to cover downhill skiiers in the side).

[Maddog37]

I keep coming back to the idea of running Gia in the middle to use his skills more. This unfortunately mean Cross, Boyd or Libba would have to come out.

For me CRossy would be the sacrifice as his kicking is the exact problem we would be trying to remedy with Gia.

[Ghost Dog]

Hacker-manis writes in the Hun " If the ' leading teams' program we have is so hot, why are we having such a poor patch with senior players?"
Have to count on the senior group getting us back on track. If not, our season is indeed kaput

[Desipura]

He is not in last year's form, but he was one player who ran harder than anyone else in the forwardline. We are struggling on the HF line and we want to get rid of the bloke who keeps presenting? Not convinced.

Ditto Jones - the only bloke who seems to have advanced his reputation this year, just gives us a target every time. Our only non-debutant who has improved. I note he did get dropped, so it is a tactic that does help some guys respond.

We have bigger fish to fry. Hudson looks like he is slowing badly, he gave away a number of frees in the first half because he appeared concerned at the pace and breakaway ability of his oppoosition rucks at the stoppages. Not so much is this his last season, but can he last the season?

Gilbee is (gulp) near enough to cooked - his pace is deserting him, his kicking reminds me of Rohan Smith post 30 (lost 5-20m of penetration) and his defensive work his lost it's edge.

Grant has gone backwards this year - seems to have lost hunger.
Williams looked good at times last year and was flying pre-season, but his output has been below what we'd expect.

I'm close to ruling a line through Hall's name as well - his lack of defensive efforts are a worry (we can't afford to cover downhill skiiers in the side).
Then why defend Gia?

[Desipura]

I keep coming back to the idea of running Gia in the middle to use his skills more. This unfortunately mean Cross, Boyd or Libba would have to come out.

For me CRossy would be the sacrifice as his kicking is the exact problem we would be trying to remedy with Gia.
Gia does have the skills however not the physical presence. Pace is the major concern with Ward, Libba & Boyd running through there.

[Desipura]

You dont rate defending? Look at the premiership teams and tell me if they have/had a strong defensive unit. A strong defence one of the most vital ingredients to winning a premiership.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

You dont rate defending? Look at the premiership teams and tell me if they have/had a strong defensive unit. A strong defence one of the most vital ingredients to winning a premiership.

Our defence has struggled all year with only Morris and Murphy the shining lights. Against West Coast both Williams and Markovic struggled badly with Hargrave and Wood both underdone. We still haven't adequately replaced Harbrow. Both Harbrow and Lake were tremendous last year and you are spot on about the need for a strong defensive unit.
We have nothing to lose by trying Mulligan given the current state of our backline.

[BulldogBelle]

Gia does have the skills however not the physical presence. Pace is the major concern with Ward, Libba & Boyd running through there.


You dont need to be able to sprint like Carl Lewis to be a great midfielder - both a defensive mid and offensive mid

Obviously the following have a huge number of attributes, but I wouldnt consider them breakneck speedsters (some Brownlow medalists of the last 10 seasons for example)

Simon Black
Mark Ricciuto
Jimmy Bartel

Our guys just arent following instructions, arent playing smart enough and arent running hard enough...

[bornadog]

You dont rate defending? Look at the premiership teams and tell me if they have/had a strong defensive unit. A strong defence one of the most vital ingredients to winning a premiership.

You can have the best defense like The Aints but if you can't kick goals you won't win the granny.

The team with more goals wins the last time I checked and that's what Gia gives us the ability to create goals. He doesnt need to be the most prolific possessions gatherer, or the hardest in and under. He is still in the top three for inside 50 tackles in our team, so pick on someone else.

[Maddog37]

Our back line was really on a hiding to nothing on the weekend. Over time back lines build cohesion and an undersanding of each others game. A team within the team if you like.

Wood first game, Williams first game back, Shaggy second game (second up blues), Gilbs, Stack and Murph coming and going and forced switching of match ups.

We need big fat lazy Brian back and we need to settle on our back six. That would be a massive plus moving forward IMO.

[LostDoggy]

Our back line was really on a hiding to nothing on the weekend. Over time back lines build cohesion and an understanding of each others game. A team within the team if you like.

Wood first game, Williams first game back, Shaggy second game (second up blues), Gilbs, Stack and Murph coming and going and forced switching of match ups.

We need big fat lazy Brian back and we need to settle on our back six. That would be a massive plus moving forward IMO.

Yes , your right , it's damn hard for any backline particularly one that as been reassembled without Lake ( at the moment 2 weeks away from being reconsidered ) to be expected to withstand an onslaught like we had against West Coast , the Midfield structurally could'nt form a zone that could prevent the supply of ball , too many players out of position or not working hard enough to be in the right position. It just makes you want to eyeball the players and say " We know you wear the Red,White and Blue but against Hawthorn it's time to show us you bleed Red,White and Blue "

.

[chef]

You know what the most important thing is in football. Kicking goals

Stopping goals is just as important.

[LostDoggy]

It's hard to read all the posts giving Cross the thumbs down . As a hard-ball midfielder he does his best work when he is working in tandem with a strong bodied player with some pace , Cooney is his normal partner in crime but he has broken down . You can be the best hard-ball midfielder in the game but if you don't have a player in the right position to handpass or kick too you look ordinary/ ineffective . Boyd is a second or third link clearance/ contested possession midfielder but as a receiver from Cross the play slows down and the opposition mids close in. Libba has clean hands and is an accurate passer of the ball but is not fast enough over 20m to make a quick clearance if he receives the ball from Cross. Ward is a hard working third link runner but does not have great pace , at the moment he can be caught out by opposition quicks moving laterally as they switch play. Griffen is much better as a wide flanker running into space and hitting targets, at the moment he is getting pulled in closer to the contests and is making mistakes when he is pressured . Sherman has the pace and a strong body but we have used him as a rebounder or a half forward , he like Griffen has also been pulled too close to contests where he is unable to run into space.

At the moment we just don't have the midfield structure to make quick clearances from a centre bounce/ contest. Djerrkura is one player we could use in tandem with Cross but at the moment he is not in form, his last game with Williamstown was quiet from reports. Hooper is another player that can be used in tandem with Cross, very quick over 20m good hands strong body but at the moment his fitness just isn't up to a 4 quarter AFL standard.

Thats all we need at the moment , a good clean pair of hands, strong body, good pace over 20m, Dahlhaus is one player we have coming up but his build would see him pushed off the ball, a good pre-season with kilo's on, an elevation to the senior list could see him in the mix next year. Big Sam Reid could used as a bash and crash extractor but long term we would like him fit and ready to take over a BP spot.

We just have to work with what he have, we have to get our zones right , the players have to follow the game plan and go like hell

It all fell apart against West Coast , now it's time for our midfielders to grit the teeth and shut down the Hawthorn ball supply / stoppages , Rocket just has to tell them go hard or go to Williamstown

.

[Dogmatic]

As a hard-ball midfielder he does his best work when he is working in tandem with a strong bodied player with some pace.

I agree that that Cross may be better served if he could dish out to a midfielder with pace, however, we are looking so slow in the midfield that i think somebody may have to make way. Cross, Boyd, Ward, Libba, Wallis are all inside midfielders who are not blessed with pace. They can't play in the same midfield, especially if other plodders like Higgins are rotating through there.

I don't want to hang Cross out to dry because he has been one of our best performers for a long time and we may be overreacting to a bad loss but, i can't help but think that we have a new and improved version in Libba.

[bornadog]

Stopping goals is just as important.

but at the end of the game the team in front wins;)

[bornadog]

Our back line was really on a hiding to nothing on the weekend. Over time back lines build cohesion and an undersanding of each others game. A team within the team if you like.

Wood first game, Williams first game back, Shaggy second game (second up blues), Gilbs, Stack and Murph coming and going and forced switching of match ups.

We need big fat lazy Brian back and we need to settle on our back six. That would be a massive plus moving forward IMO.

The last three years our backline was very stable and last year we learnt how to be stoppers as well. Last year, up until the round 20 debacle, we had the third best defence in the AFL for points scored against, ie only behind Saints and Geelong. We really do need to settle who is playing in the back six and stick to it.

[Ghost Dog]

It's hard to read all the posts giving Cross the thumbs down . As a hard-ball midfielder he does his best work when he is working in tandem with a strong bodied player with some pace , Cooney is his normal partner in crime but he has broken down . You can be the best hard-ball midfielder in the game but if you don't have a player in the right position to handpass or kick too you look ordinary/ ineffective . Boyd is a second or third link clearance/ contested possession midfielder but as a receiver from Cross the play slows down and the opposition mids close in. Libba has clean hands and is an accurate passer of the ball but is not fast enough over 20m to make a quick clearance if he receives the ball from Cross. Ward is a hard working third link runner but does not have great pace , at the moment he can be caught out by opposition quicks moving laterally as they switch play. Griffen is much better as a wide flanker running into space and hitting targets, at the moment he is getting pulled in closer to the contests and is making mistakes when he is pressured . Sherman has the pace and a strong body but we have used him as a rebounder or a half forward , he like Griffen has also been pulled too close to contests where he is unable to run into space.

At the moment we just don't have the midfield structure to make quick clearances from a centre bounce/ contest. Djerrkura is one player we could use in tandem with Cross but at the moment he is not in form, his last game with Williamstown was quiet from reports. Hooper is another player that can be used in tandem with Cross, very quick over 20m good hands strong body but at the moment his fitness just isn't up to a 4 quarter AFL standard.

Thats all we need at the moment , a good clean pair of hands, strong body, good pace over 20m, Dahlhaus is one player we have coming up but his build would see him pushed off the ball, a good pre-season with kilo's on, an elevation to the senior list could see him in the mix next year. Big Sam Reid could used as a bash and crash extractor but long term we would like him fit and ready to take over a BP spot.

We just have to work with what he have, we have to get our zones right , the players have to follow the game plan and go like hell

It all fell apart against West Coast , now it's time for our midfielders to grit the teeth and shut down the Hawthorn ball supply / stoppages , Rocket just has to tell them go hard or go to Williamstown

.

Cut out the middle man and use in and under players who can kick long.
It's essential to get the thing out with decent penetration.
I'd have Gia in the middle rather than Cross. Getting the ball is only half the job.


Was interesting to watch Essendon on TV, the way two guys back right into opposing players fter the bounce and block, so Watson can get thing and kick it. We could do that. Why don't we? Doesn't seem like rocket science.

[LostDog]

I have a feeling its all gonna turn around this week. (fingers crossed)

[DragzLS1]

Hope so! I reckon it's going to be a close 1.. Hopefully in our favour

[Desipura]

You dont need to be able to sprint like Carl Lewis to be a great midfielder - both a defensive mid and offensive mid

Obviously the following have a huge number of attributes, but I wouldnt consider them breakneck speedsters (some Brownlow medalists of the last 10 seasons for example)

Simon Black
Mark Ricciuto
Jimmy Bartel

Our guys just arent following instructions, arent playing smart enough and arent running hard enough...

I quoted 3 of our players that are not speedsters to get my point across yet you mentioned 3 players from 3 different clubs. I'm not naive to think you need speed to be a great midfielder, you should read my posts more clearly

[ratsmac]

I quoted 3 of our players that are not speedsters to get my point across yet you mentioned 3 players from 3 different clubs. I'm not naive to think you need speed to be a great midfielder, you should read my posts more clearly

Agreed and once these slower type gun midfielders lose their elite skills, their time is up. This is what has happened to our midfielders that used to be guns. Their skills aren't as sharp and all of a sudden they look dead slow.

[LostDoggy]

All this talk about personnel and gamestyle: they are not the issue -- there is enough room in football for a variety of styles and players. Style and personnel do not explain a 30 goal turnaround from one season to the next.

The missing ingredients aren't changing this bloke or that bloke, or adopting this tactic or that; those things are important, and they help explain your garden-variety wins and losses (see St. Kilda), but they do not explain 20 goal blowouts to middling teams at this level.

What's missing? Hunger. Pride. Above all -- Discipline.

It's a dirty word these days, and a bit old-fashioned, but there it is. Our players don't follow instructions or their man or their structures, they don't have the discipline to just keep doing the right things, the team things, the hard things, when things get tough or aren't going right. They don't have the discipline and pride to finish things off properly, to go that extra mile, and 90% seems to be good enough instead of continually doing the barely noticed 1%s. Where the simpler way out is to hand responsibility for the shot or the tackle off to someone else, and too much is left to too few.

How did it come to this and who is accountable for that? That's the million dollar question.

[LostDoggy]

One answer is simple. A Libba cannot sustain what a Cooney could. To rely on them is too much. We have young / inexperienced players who will take time to develop and who are not as good as the experienced players we have out. They simply can't sustain it for long enough. Especially when the game plan unravels. That's what 50+ games teaches you.

[BulldogBelle]

All this talk about personnel and gamestyle: they are not the issue -- there is enough room in football for a variety of styles and players. Style and personnel do not explain a 30 goal turnaround from one season to the next.

The missing ingredients aren't changing this bloke or that bloke, or adopting this tactic or that; those things are important, and they help explain your garden-variety wins and losses (see St. Kilda), but they do not explain 20 goal blowouts to middling teams at this level.

What's missing? Hunger. Pride. Above all -- Discipline.

It's a dirty word these days, and a bit old-fashioned, but there it is. Our players don't follow instructions or their man or their structures, they don't have the discipline to just keep doing the right things, the team things, the hard things, when things get tough or aren't going right. They don't have the discipline and pride to finish things off properly, to go that extra mile, and 90% seems to be good enough instead of continually doing the barely noticed 1%s. Where the simpler way out is to hand responsibility for the shot or the tackle off to someone else, and too much is left to too few.

How did it come to this and who is accountable for that? That's the million dollar question.



Agree.

Preseason most of the media had tipped us to reach the GF- so we must have recruited well (Sherman + Libba only so far), and we must look good on paper.

Our players need to be disciplined enough to know that they are professionals who are paid very highly to follow a set of instructions (a job description which can change on a week to week basis)...if they do not follow the job description to the best of their ability then there needs to be consequences - eg being dropped to Williamstown and being financially disadvantaged.

Do we motivate enough with the stick? Or do we just use the Carrot?

[ratsmac]

Who are you talking about?

Gilbee, Cross, Gia, Boyd, Higgins. Slower ball movement through poor skills whether it be through age or injury has made these types look slower IMO. All of these can seem lightning quick when their ball handling skill are on.

[ratsmac]

All this talk about personnel and gamestyle: they are not the issue -- there is enough room in football for a variety of styles and players. Style and personnel do not explain a 30 goal turnaround from one season to the next.

The missing ingredients aren't changing this bloke or that bloke, or adopting this tactic or that; those things are important, and they help explain your garden-variety wins and losses (see St. Kilda), but they do not explain 20 goal blowouts to middling teams at this level.

What's missing? Hunger. Pride. Above all -- Discipline.

It's a dirty word these days, and a bit old-fashioned, but there it is. Our players don't follow instructions or their man or their structures, they don't have the discipline to just keep doing the right things, the team things, the hard things, when things get tough or aren't going right. They don't have the discipline and pride to finish things off properly, to go that extra mile, and 90% seems to be good enough instead of continually doing the barely noticed 1%s. Where the simpler way out is to hand responsibility for the shot or the tackle off to someone else, and too much is left to too few.

How did it come to this and who is accountable for that? That's the million dollar question.

Or is our game plan a bit old hat.

[LostDoggy]

Or is our game plan a bit old hat.

Game plans don't account for a 23 goal differential.

Look, I know that footy came to advanced 'tactics' later than most team sports, (I like to think of Paul Roos's Sydney as year 0 of the new age, with Pagan's paddock and Sheedy's Essendon the last vestiges of traditional suburban footy) but the reality is that these things, while important, only go a small way to explaining things -- this is a team that made the last 3 PFs, so to say that the coach or players suddenly don't know how to play (or coach) modern football is a bit rich.

The 'press' is all the rage, just as Hawthorn's zone and St.Kilda's 'frontal pressure' was the precursor to the full press, but there are other teams that don't play the press (Geelong and Sydney being the prime examples) that have maintained consistency and performance over a long period despite not always having the best lists. Carlton and Hawthorn also play quite a different game from Collingwood's aggressive press.

Nothing is 'old hat', tactics evolve and go around and come around.. in five years we will be talking about an aggressively offensive team that would have developed the skillset to move the ball through the press at speed, just as Geelong developed a rapid fire handball style to combat the flood which then led to some teams started getting fitter to increase pressure on Geelong's disposal. The relevant question is not: "which tactic is the latest trend we should be copying", but "what style is the list best suited to which provides the best balance between defence and attack and gives the team the best chance of success"? If it means creating a new tactic or adapting one to suit, fair enough, but "new" does not automatically equal "good".

[bornadog]

Game plans don't account for a 23 goal differential.

Look, I know that footy came to advanced 'tactics' later than most team sports, (I like to think of Paul Roos's Sydney as year 0 of the new age, with Pagan's paddock and Sheedy's Essendon the last vestiges of traditional suburban footy) but the reality is that these things, while important, only go a small way to explaining things -- this is a team that made the last 3 PFs, so to say that the coach or players suddenly don't know how to play (or coach) modern football is a bit rich.

The 'press' is all the rage, just as Hawthorn's zone and St.Kilda's 'frontal pressure' was the precursor to the full press, but there are other teams that don't play the press (Geelong and Sydney being the prime examples) that have maintained consistency and performance over a long period despite not always having the best lists. Carlton and Hawthorn also play quite a different game from Collingwood's aggressive press.

Nothing is 'old hat', tactics evolve and go around and come around.. in five years we will be talking about an aggressively offensive team that would have developed the skillset to move the ball through the press at speed, just as Geelong developed a rapid fire handball style to combat the flood which then led to some teams started getting fitter to increase pressure on Geelong's disposal. The relevant question is not: "which tactic is the latest trend we should be copying", but "what style is the list best suited to which provides the best balance between defence and attack and gives the team the best chance of success"? If it means creating a new tactic or adapting one to suit, fair enough, but "new" does not automatically equal "good".

Under Geelongs new coach they are now playing a Collingwood style press, except their backline is stronger than any other clubs.

[LostDoggy]

Gee I'm glad I mostly avoided this place this week.

I was there, and I agree — it was a crap effort. One of, if not the, worst I've ever seen in red, white and blue. I sat there at Subiaco/Patterson's/whatever and copped the full brunt of a few thousand Eagles fans convinced it was the first win on the way to a flag in 2011. Had to sit there and watch us concede 100 points with absolutely no fight back at all.

Had to endure the entire game with the knowledge our season could be over. That our dream has been interrupted with a bucket of cold water on our faces. I thought about the reasons why. Is Eade the problem? Do we need a new leadership group? Is there in-fighting at the club?

As I'd imagine you all felt, by the time the final siren blew I was humiliated, dejected and incredibly miserable. You get the picture…

So when my kids jumped the fence after the 2nd siren, kicking around the footy and laughing and having fun, then all joined in in chorus to sing our song anyway on the way out of the ground — thank the heavens for the ignorance of kids eh? — I was reminded exactly why I support this team in the first place. My gratitude to my kids for reminding me almost had me in tears…

We love this club because of all we've been through together, not despite it. If this is the end of this particular shot at the flag, rest assured the next crack we have will be from a position nowhere near as far back as we've had to come this time.

We didn't finish the roof, but the foundations are still strong.

[Murphy'sLore]

Hand on heart, BAS... Now you've nearly made me cry.

Go, Dogs.

[LostDoggy]

Gee I'm glad I mostly avoided this place this week.

I was there, and I agree — it was a crap effort. One of, if not the, worst I've ever seen in red, white and blue. I sat there at Subiaco/Patterson's/whatever and copped the full brunt of a few thousand Eagles fans convinced it was the first win on the way to a flag in 2011. Had to sit there and watch us concede 100 points with absolutely no fight back at all.

Had to endure the entire game with the knowledge our season could be over. That our dream has been interrupted with a bucket of cold water on our faces. I thought about the reasons why. Is Eade the problem? Do we need a new leadership group? Is there in-fighting at the club?

As I'd imagine you all felt, by the time the final siren blew I was humiliated, dejected and incredibly miserable. You get the picture…

So when my kids jumped the fence after the 2nd siren, kicking around the footy and laughing and having fun, then all joined in in chorus to sing our song anyway on the way out of the ground — thank the heavens for the ignorance of kids eh? — I was reminded exactly why I support this team in the first place. My gratitude to my kids for reminding me almost had me in tears…

We love this club because of all we've been through together, not despite it. If this is the end of this particular shot at the flag, rest assured the next crack we have will be from a position nowhere near as far back as we've had to come this time.

We didn't finish the roof, but the foundations are still strong.

Good post especially the bolded part. I to think we are a much stronger club and coming from a better position to have a real crack.

[LostDoggy]

Gee I'm glad I mostly avoided this place this week.

I was there, and I agree — it was a crap effort. One of, if not the, worst I've ever seen in red, white and blue. I sat there at Subiaco/Patterson's/whatever and copped the full brunt of a few thousand Eagles fans convinced it was the first win on the way to a flag in 2011. Had to sit there and watch us concede 100 points with absolutely no fight back at all.

Had to endure the entire game with the knowledge our season could be over. That our dream has been interrupted with a bucket of cold water on our faces. I thought about the reasons why. Is Eade the problem? Do we need a new leadership group? Is there in-fighting at the club?

As I'd imagine you all felt, by the time the final siren blew I was humiliated, dejected and incredibly miserable. You get the picture…

So when my kids jumped the fence after the 2nd siren, kicking around the footy and laughing and having fun, then all joined in in chorus to sing our song anyway on the way out of the ground — thank the heavens for the ignorance of kids eh? — I was reminded exactly why I support this team in the first place. My gratitude to my kids for reminding me almost had me in tears…

We love this club because of all we've been through together, not despite it. If this is the end of this particular shot at the flag, rest assured the next crack we have will be from a position nowhere near as far back as we've had to come this time.

We didn't finish the roof, but the foundations are still strong.
So good to read someone positive after all the negatives. I went to the Perth game at Easter and so glad I chose that one instead of last weeks even though we lost both at least we put in an effort against Freo.
We have short memories, felt like it was our worst effort for years, then remembered the Geelong game last year, the margin was not as big but the effort was. So there is still hope, we finished top four aft the Geelong effort.

[Greystache]

We love this club because of all we've been through together, not despite it. If this is the end of this particular shot at the flag, rest assured the next crack we have will be from a position nowhere near as far back as we've had to come this time.

Speak for yourself, I love the club despite what I've been though with it. I don't celebrate our history of failure, I don't take great pride out of honorable losses, and I certainly don't consider it an achievement to continue to support a club no matter how much they lose.

I continue to support the club out of loyalty and the hope that one day the place will change and we'll actually demand success.

[SonofScray]

Speak for yourself, I love the club despite what I've been though with it. I don't celebrate our history of failure, I don't take great pride out of honorable losses, and I certainly don't consider it an achievement to continue to support a club no matter how much they lose.

I continue to support the club out of loyalty and the hope that one day the place will change and we'll actually demand success.

Agree, while I do enjoy the "chase" aspect of our supporter culture, and the fact we saved the Club etc etc you can't hang your hat on it. What would happen when we won? Complete meltdown as you struggle with the formation of a new identity!

[LostDoggy]

Demand success. What does that mean?

I doubt no one at the club doesn't want success.

[Greystache]

Demand success. What does that mean?

It's hardly complex concept, work it out yourself.

[Mofra]

It's hardly complex concept, work it out yourself.
I think the point is it's a bit of a glib statement really - we all want success.
I haven't met any supporter that doesn't.

[comrade]

It's hardly complex concept, work it out yourself.

It sounds like a variation on that old cliche "accepting mediocrity".

[Jasper]

I think the point is it's a bit of a glib statement really - we all want success.
I haven't met any supporter that doesn't.

It actually an interesting cultural concept with our club, as there is a concern that supporters too readily accept or even praise poor outcomes, I believe this was what Terry Wallace was referring to in the Year of the Dog when he said:

"If I see one of you blokes getting a pat on the back at the club tonight for trying, God help me I'll spew up."

While I understand being positive, I also don't accept losing well. Sometimes what I see with Bulldogs supporters and some who post here is the attitude Wallace was fighting and it is frustrating to see a culture that near enough is good enough, or gee we were unlucky. I saw a post from Sedat well praised by many outlining how close we were in the last three PFs, how unlucky with injury we were - what I didn't see was the responses lamenting our lost opportunities particularly in 09 where we got an underdone Geelong in the first final and could have dodged StKilda, and got a break to rest our injured players.

[bornadog]

Speak for yourself, I love the club despite what I've been though with it. I don't celebrate our history of failure, I don't take great pride out of honorable losses, and I certainly don't consider it an achievement to continue to support a club no matter how much they lose.

I continue to support the club out of loyalty and the hope that one day the place will change and we'll actually demand success.

I took the " We" as Bornascragger and his family.

[Greystache]

I think the point is it's a bit of a glib statement really - we all want success.
I haven't met any supporter that doesn't.

I've met lots that are happy with the journey, and if a premiership comes along the way so be it. Just as many that claim if we ever won a premiership that they'd stop watching footy because the chase would be over.

I have absolutely no doubt that the expectations of the hardcore supporter base play a role in the on field success of a club.

[Greystache]

It actually an interesting cultural concept with our club, as there is a concern that supporters too readily accept or even praise poor outcomes, I believe this was what Terry Wallace was referring to in the Year of the Dog when he said:

"If I see one of you blokes getting a pat on the back at the club tonight for trying, God help me I'll spew up."

While I understand being positive, I also don't accept losing well. Sometimes what I see with Bulldogs supporters and some who post here is the attitude Wallace was fighting and it is frustrating to see a culture that near enough is good enough, or gee we were unlucky. I saw a post from Sedat well praised by many outlining how close we were in the last three PFs, how unlucky with injury we were - what I didn't see was the responses lamenting our lost opportunities particularly in 09 where we got an underdone Geelong in the first final and could have dodged StKilda, and got a break to rest our injured players.

Exactly. Terry Wallace still says one of challenges he had as a coach leading up to a finals series was creating an air of expectation around the club. The players were constantly surrounded by supporters and ex-players that wished them well and hoped for them to win, and while they all meant well it did nothing to create the type of environment where success was expected.

I heard him speaking about clubs with histories of sustained success like Hawthorn, Essendon, and Carlton, and the atmosphere around the club was expectation of a premiership, turning up to a qualifying final and getting stage fright was not acceptable. We put it down to nerves or a bit of bad luck and move on to the next game.

[Sedat]

Speak for yourself, I love the club despite what I've been though with it. I don't celebrate our history of failure, I don't take great pride out of honorable losses, and I certainly don't consider it an achievement to continue to support a club no matter how much they lose.
Stache, you make it sound like we have been completely useless and non-competitive. Since 1992 we have made 6 PF's and fought in 11 finals campaigns. In the 20 years prior to that we made 1 PF and played in 3 finals campaigns. Our club has given its supporters good value for money on the field in the modern era.

I hate losing PF's as much as the next supporter but you know what, the sun rises the next morning and life goes on. The thrill of the chase will always be there.

I remember going to the 1991 premiership celebrartions at Glenferrie with a couple of Hawk mates and it was like going to someone's backyard for a family barbie. I was gobsmacked that their club won the ultimate prize in football, and their fans couldn't give a toss. When we win the cup, it will be savoured for the rest of our lives, and surely that is something far more valuable than complacency and taking success for granted.

[Jasper]

Stache, you make it sound like we have been completely useless and non-competitive. Since 1992 we have made 6 PF's and fought in 11 finals campaigns. In the 20 years prior to that we made 1 PF and played in 3 finals campaigns. Our club has given its supporters good value for money on the field in the modern era.

I hate losing PF's as much as the next supporter but you know what, the sun rises the next morning and life goes on. The thrill of the chase will always be there.

I remember going to the 1991 premiership celebrartions at Glenferrie with a couple of Hawk mates and it was like going to someone's backyard for a family barbie. I was gobsmacked that their club won the ultimate prize in football, and their fans couldn't give a toss. When we win the cup, it will be savoured for the rest of our lives, and surely that is something far more valuable than complacency and taking success for granted.

Interesting, I often value your reasoned input Sedat. I do however completely disagree with your 'value for money' concept.

Hawthorn have been shit since 91 on the whole. But you know what, I'd take their premiership which they snuck in over our value for money 6 losing PFs every day of the week. I don't have to even think about it.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

The notion that continued failure somehow makes success sweeter is something people coping with losing tell themselves - I get that, but I don't agree with any of your post.

[Greystache]

Stache, you make it sound like we have been completely useless and non-competitive. Since 1992 we have made 6 PF's and fought in 11 finals campaigns. In the 20 years prior to that we made 1 PF and played in 3 finals campaigns. Our club has given its supporters good value for money on the field in the modern era.

I hate losing PF's as much as the next supporter but you know what, the sun rises the next morning and life goes on. The thrill of the chase will always be there.

I remember going to the 1991 premiership celebrartions at Glenferrie with a couple of Hawk mates and it was like going to someone's backyard for a family barbie. I was gobsmacked that their club won the ultimate prize in football, and their fans couldn't give a toss. When we win the cup, it will be savoured for the rest of our lives, and surely that is something far more valuable than complacency and taking success for granted.

I didn't say we've been completely useless, but we also need to accept the realities, and they aren't pretty. 2 grand finals in our history, none in the past 50 years, and we haven't beaten a top 4 team in a final during that time. That's damning, we can say we've been close, or unlucky, or that it's not a level playing field, but seeing as Adelaide is the only team to win a premiership after finishing the H&A season outside the top 4 in recent memory, the fact that we're 0-14 shows how mediocre we've been.

Every club (barring Freo and GC) has played in a grand final since 1980 except us, and excluding Richmond (who everyone says have been horrendous for 30 years) every club has played in a grand final since 1998 but us. Denying the facts haven't helped us.

[Rocco Jones]

Interesting, I often value your reasoned input Sedat. I do however completely disagree with your 'value for money' concept.

Hawthorn have been shit since 91 on the whole. But you know what, I'd take their premiership which they snuck in over our value for money 6 losing PFs every day of the week. I don't have to even think about it.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

The notion that continued failure somehow makes success sweeter is something people coping with losing tell themselves - I get that, but I don't agree with any of your post.

Completely agree with all that.

[Doc26]

I remember going to the 1991 premiership celebrartions at Glenferrie with a couple of Hawk mates and it was like going to someone's backyard for a family barbie. I was gobsmacked that their club won the ultimate prize in football, and their fans couldn't give a toss. When we win the cup, it will be savoured for the rest of our lives, and surely that is something far more valuable than complacency and taking success for granted.

Funny, my father and I were at the same post GF event and quite a number prior to that one. I have always been envious of the sustained succes they have enjoyed going back to ~76.

Sedat, if Hawthorn supporters portray complacency and taking success for granted it's only because they have earnt the privilege. What they do have now is a culture where success is demanded and genuinely expected across all levels, a culture they have worked hard to build.

I would like to think that we would strive for a similar culture where a 'line in the sand' is drawn on what is a minimum expectation each week, so that one day my children can 'expect' rather than 'hope' to see a Bulldog premiership in their lifetime, unlike their father.


I

[SonofScray]

Every club (barring Freo and GC) has played in a grand final since 1980 except us, and excluding Richmond (who everyone says have been horrendous for 30 years) every club has played in a grand final since 1998 but us. Denying the facts haven't helped us.

Stings a bit. Damning handful of facts you've thrown into the mix there. How do you address it? Just a huge monkey on the back really.

He probably wouldn't popular, but you'd love to see a man at the Club really own our historical failures and work with the current group to address the cultural aspects of it. I think horror of '97 has been transferred through to the likes of Gia and Bob etc, hopefully something happens to break that cycle.

[LostDoggy]

I didn't say we've been completely useless, but we also need to accept the realities, and they aren't pretty. 2 grand finals in our history, none in the past 50 years, and we haven't beaten a top 4 team in a final during that time. That's damning, we can say we've been close, or unlucky, or that it's not a level playing field, but seeing as Adelaide is the only team to win a premiership after finishing the H&A season outside the top 4 in recent memory, the fact that we're 0-14 shows how mediocre we've been.

Every club (barring Freo and GC) has played in a grand final since 1980 except us, and excluding Richmond (who everyone says have been horrendous for 30 years) every club has played in a grand final since 1998 but us. Denying the facts haven't helped us.

OK, you're right — accept the realities and give up. Call Smorgo, tell him it's time to fold — I mean, shit, we're useless as a team and a club so we might as well just pack it in, right?

Your point about clubs winning outside the Top 4 is bullshit. It's much more difficult, of course, but making the 8 means you're still in the fight, so fight you must. It's a damn good thing for the Crows that they didn't believe the same bullshit.

I see our club history in two distinct eras — as Footscray, and as the Western Bulldogs. As Footscray our history is damning. As the Western Bulldogs it's been much better. You say every other team has played in a GF except us since 98 right? Have any of them come from so far back, on and off field?

The point of my post, which I'm sure you missed because you were too quick to damn me for “accepting mediocrity”, is that losers sit there and sulk, whereas winners say to themselves, “Gee, this hurts, but I'll be stronger next time.”

I've always wanted to quote Rocky :), so here's my chance:


It ain't about how hard ya hit. It's about how hard you can get it and keep moving forward. How much you can take and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done!

[Greystache]

OK, you're right — accept the realities and give up. Call Smorgo, tell him it's time to fold — I mean, shit, we're useless as a team and a club so we might as well just pack it in, right?

Your point about clubs winning outside the Top 4 is bullshit. It's much more difficult, of course, but making the 8 means you're still in the fight, so fight you must. It's a damn good thing for the Crows that they didn't believe the same bullshit.

I see our club history in two distinct eras — as Footscray, and as the Western Bulldogs. As Footscray our history is damning. As the Western Bulldogs it's been much better. You say every other team has played in a GF except us since 98 right? Have any of them come from so far back, on and off field?

The point of my post, which I'm sure you missed because you were too quick to damn me for “accepting mediocrity”, is that losers sit there and sulk, whereas winners say to themselves, “Gee, this hurts, but I'll be stronger next time.”

I've always wanted to quote Rocky :), so here's my chance:

Good thing Adelaide were the reigning premier at the time! They also lost in the first week of the finals but due to an anomaly in the old finals system they still progressed to the next round, otherwise no team in history would have won the premiership from outside the top four. So history is clear, if you can't beat a top 4 side you're an also ran.

Denial is a way of coping which is fine, each to their own, but all the heart felt speeches in the world don't change the facts.

As for folding, fighting the fight, not sulking, and still being in the hunt by being in the 8, not sure were that fits in to the discussion.

[LostDoggy]

I get it demanding success is dwell in our poor premiership history and not be happy if we win a home & away game.

[LostDoggy]

I've met lots that are happy with the journey, and if a premiership comes along the way so be it. Just as many that claim if we ever won a premiership that they'd stop watching footy because the chase would be over.
If you think we are the only group of supporter who have fans that think like that then you are kidding yourself.


I have absolutely no doubt that the expectations of the hardcore supporter base play a role in the on field success of a club.
Yes you described a hardcore supporter above

[LostDoggy]

Good thing Adelaide were the reigning premier at the time! They also lost in the first week of the finals but due to an anomaly in the old finals system they still progressed to the next round, otherwise no team in history would have won the premiership from outside the top four. So history is clear, if you can't beat a top 4 side you're an also ran.

Denial is a way of coping which is fine, each to their own, but all the heart felt speeches in the world don't change the facts.

As for folding, fighting the fight, not sulking, and still being in the hunt by being in the 8, not sure were that fits in to the discussion.

Fight or flight. That's how it fits in to the discussion. You sit here like the rest of us armchair coaches, describing in great detail (and much accuracy, I must admit) our historical failings. What's the solution? Give up, or keep on trucking?

As to the top 4 business, mate, just because it hasn't been done or is difficult does not make it impossible. At this point, we're no chance for top four and therefore their aim should be the 8. Get to the finals, have 4 great weeks and a bit of luck and you're laughing… Yes, it's hard. Yes, it can be done.

It's this defeatist attitude that's worse for our “culture” than “accepting mediocrity”. What we saw after half time last weekend was a defeatist attitude. They gave up. Pure and simple.

[Topdog]

Where on Earth do you think Greystache has been defeatist. He wants to break the cycle. He wants the club to stop hoping and start doing.

[Maddog37]

Fight or flight. That's how it fits in to the discussion. You sit here like the rest of us armchair coaches, describing in great detail (and much accuracy, I must admit) our historical failings. What's the solution? Give up, or keep on trucking?

As to the top 4 business, mate, just because it hasn't been done or is difficult does not make it impossible. At this point, we're no chance for top four and therefore their aim should be the 8. Get to the finals, have 4 great weeks and a bit of luck and you're laughing… Yes, it's hard. Yes, it can be done.

It's this defeatist attitude that's worse for our “culture” than “accepting mediocrity”. What we saw after half time last weekend was a defeatist attitude. They gave up. Pure and simple.



Love the Rocky quotes and the sentiment in this post. I reckon this year is rooted to be honest but to whinge and moan about our tragic history just makes me sick. It is empty rhetoric and I have no idea what purpose it serves.

Should we all throw our hands up in the air and say the doomsayers are right?

There is only one way forward and that is to keep working. The players did not work last week and that is why it hurt so much.

Our job as supporters is to support. If change is needed then write letters to the people you feel need to know about it. Sitting on the net and berating people for accepting mediocrity etc is just pathetic and self-serving.

Rant over.

[LostDoggy]

Where on Earth do you think Greystache has been defeatist. He wants to break the cycle. He wants the club to stop hoping and start doing.

I think that the view of most of our fans yet we are 'accepting mediocrity' and not 'demanding success'.

[The Pie Man]

Where on Earth do you think Greystache has been defeatist. He wants to break the cycle. He wants the club to stop hoping and start doing.

Uncanny - I had to search for it this morning to motivate staff



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBTqE2OgMB4

[Ghost Dog]

Stache, you make it sound like we have been completely useless and non-competitive. Since 1992 we have made 6 PF's and fought in 11 finals campaigns. In the 20 years prior to that we made 1 PF and played in 3 finals campaigns. Our club has given its supporters good value for money on the field in the modern era.

I hate losing PF's as much as the next supporter but you know what, the sun rises the next morning and life goes on. The thrill of the chase will always be there.

I remember going to the 1991 premiership celebrartions at Glenferrie with a couple of Hawk mates and it was like going to someone's backyard for a family barbie. I was gobsmacked that their club won the ultimate prize in football, and their fans couldn't give a toss. When we win the cup, it will be savoured for the rest of our lives, and surely that is something far more valuable than complacency and taking success for granted.


Interesting, I often value your reasoned input Sedat. I do however completely disagree with your 'value for money' concept.

Hawthorn have been shit since 91 on the whole. But you know what, I'd take their premiership which they snuck in over our value for money 6 losing PFs every day of the week. I don't have to even think about it.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

The notion that continued failure somehow makes success sweeter is something people coping with losing tell themselves - I get that, but I don't agree with any of your post.

I guess it comes down to how you define success.
For me, Knowing you can roll with the best and take them on, even if not always win. To always be in the hunt
I hate going into games, knowing you are going to get a thumping.

[LostDoggy]

Where on Earth do you think Greystache has been defeatist. He wants to break the cycle. He wants the club to stop hoping and start doing.

Because he has no answers, no suggestions, nothing to say other than “they've lost for years”. We all know that. It's not about that. It's all about this: “What are we going to do about it? Give up or keep on fighting.”

Geelong kept on fighting and won. Collingwood kept on fighting and won. Sydney kept on fighting for 72 years and won. Even the bloody Saints at the moment are having a crack.

Losers give up. What's why they lose.


Love the Rocky quotes and the sentiment in this post. I reckon this year is rooted to be honest but to whinge and moan about our tragic history just makes me sick. It is empty rhetoric and I have no idea what purpose it serves.

Should we all throw our hands up in the air and say the doomsayers are right?

There is only one way forward and that is to keep working. The players did not work last week and that is why it hurt so much.

Our job as supporters is to support. If change is needed then write letters to the people you feel need to know about it. Sitting on the net and berating people for accepting mediocrity etc is just pathetic and self-serving.

Rant over.

Thanks. That's exactly what I wanted to say.

I'm gonna say something else: If sacking the coach delivered a flag, we'd have 10. We've been sacking the coach for 50-odd years. Maybe it's time to do something different — give him a contract extension and force the playing group to either shape up or ship out.

[Topdog]

I'm gonna say something else: If sacking the coach delivered a flag, we'd have 10. We've been sacking the coach for 50-odd years. Maybe it's time to do something different — give him a contract extension and force the playing group to either shape up or ship out.

Neither option is the right one.
The right one is to go away, look at the situation and decide if the current coach is

A) Still up to it (footy is changing rapidly)
B) Able to guide / nurture a young list
C) Still has the drive / desire to keep going.

If he satisfies all 3 and there is no better candidate then offer him a contract. And personally I want Rocket at the club for at least 1 more year (barring anything surprising happening this season)

[Dancin' Douggy]

One week its a good performance.
The next week its a humiliating loss.
Where is the consistancy!?

Beating richmond is not a great achievement. Port Adelaide beat them for god's sake.
IOt was nice yes, but in the scheme of things it was delusional to think that would kick start our season. Gilbee kicks 6 and 2 weeks later is dropped for being lazy and having zero impact.