Round 10 Team

[G-Mo77]

Western Bulldogs

* B: Liam Picken, Tom L. Williams, Ryan Hargrave
* HB: Robert Murphy, Dale Morris, Easton Wood
* C: Daniel Cross, Matthew Boyd, Christian Howard
* HF: Ryan Griffen, Liam Jones, Mitchell Wallis
* F: Shaun Higgins, Barry Hall, Daniel Giansiracusa
* Foll: William Minson, Thomas Liberatore, Callan Ward
* I/C: Josh Hill, Ben Hudson, Sam Reid, Lukas Markovic, Brodie Moles, Nathan Djerrkura, Justin Sherman

* In: Josh Hill, Sam Reid, Barry Hall, Christian Howard, Nathan Djerrkura, Mitchell Wallis
* Out: Lindsay Gilbee, Brennan Stack, Jarrad Grant
* New: Christian Howard (Sacred Heart College/Glenelg

Hawthorn

* B: Paul Puopolo, Josh Gibson, Thomas Murphy
* HB: Grant Birchall, Ryan Schoenmakers, Brent Guerra
* C: Jordan Lewis, Sam Mitchell, Shane Savage
* HF: Chance Bateman, Lance Franklin, Shaun Burgoyne
* F: Cyril Rioli, Jarryd Roughead, Michael Osborne
* Foll: Max Bailey, Luke Hodge, Brad Sewell
* I/C: Rick Ladson, Clinton Young, Brendan Whitecross, Jordan Lisle, Liam Shiels, Luke Breust, Matt Suckling

* In: Rick Ladson, Clinton Young, Jordan Lisle

[LostDoggy]

Hudson moving to the bench is interesting, MC losing patience with him this season.

[Throughandthrough]

Go Howie *


* If selected

[SlimPickens]

Will be interesting to see how Grant responds to being dropped. His performances at VFL level never really excited me. Hopefully he can go back with the right attitude to earn a recall sooner rather then later.

All the best to Howard on debut.

[bornadog]

No Lake again.

[SlimPickens]

Go Howie *


* If selected

Named on the field generally suggests he will play.

[Remi Moses]

No Lake ! Franklin might kick 30 this week!

[Dogmatic]

I'm impressed that Eade had the balls to drop a senior player (Gilbee) and a core player (Grant). Over the years i have been critical of Eade for never dropping Gilbee, Hahn, Gia etc.

Also good to see Dj named, hopefully he plays, he has had limited opportunities thus far.

[Cyberdoggie]

Go Howie *


* If selected

He's in the starting lineup, sitting there on a wing so i'd say he's in.

Mitchell Wallis also on the HFF.

Gilbee, Stack and Grant the sacrificial lambs.

No Lake so i'd expect Markovic to play, You would think Sherman and probably Moles will play, bit hard to drop them on performances (Sherman was ok and Moles has been ok with limited time). So that leaves Hill, Hudson, DJ, Reid for the last spot.

I don't think DJ will play as he didn't have the best game against the pies vfl side. Hill was very good and would be a chance, Reid was also good and deserves another go, maybe getting a game against the 1 team he played against last year where he did both his shoulders is an omen?. So would we go in with 1 ruckman? and no Huddo? :eek:

[bornadog]

I/C: Josh Hill, Ben Hudson, Sam Reid, Lukas Markovic, Brodie Moles, Nathan Djerrkura, Justin Sherman


Who comes in?

I predict: Markovic, Sherman, Hill and DJ

[Cyberdoggie]

No Lake ! Franklin might kick 30 this week!

Yeah i'd pencil him in as Captain of your dt/sc.

[Greystache]

Surprised not to see Dahlhaus in the squad.

[Lake Superior]

Would love to see Reid get a game

Good luck to Howard also

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Surely only one ruck this week, given it's against Hawthorn?

I'd like to see Reid play a few games, but it's hard to see where.

[LostDoggy]

Minno vs Bailey with Williams v Roughie 2nd rucks..

Dropping Huddo not out of the equation.

Ill agree with Bornadog: Markovic, Sherman, Hill and DJ (as sub) I wanna see Moles get more game time instead of sub again.

Would also like to see Reid play but happy that Howard is in!

[Go_Dogs]

Surprised not to see Dahlhaus in the squad.

Can you confirm that Roughy has been placed on the LTIL?


Good selections this week, although a bit surprised by the demotion of Stack, but considering Hill and Howard are in, the balance is probably right.

It's a very different looking side to what many would have predicted not even 15 weeks ago. I tip my hat to Rocket for having the gall to make these tough selection changes in a contract year and not take the safer/easier option of playing out of form/under-performing senior players.

[GVGjr]

Go Howie *


* If selected

Fair chance to make the 22. Good luck to him.

[Lake Superior]

Surprised not to see Dahlhaus in the squad.

Did he get elavated?

[Lake Superior]

Can you confirm that Roughy has been placed on the LTIL?


Good selections this week, although a bit surprised by the demotion of Stack, but considering Hill and Howard are in, the balance is probably right.

It's a very different looking side to what many would have predicted not even 15 weeks ago. I tip my hat to Rocket for having the gall to make these tough selection changes in a contract year and not take the safer/easier option of playing out of form/under-performing senior players.

Tom Hill is placed on LTIL

[Sedat]

Calling Hawthorn's bluff by placing Huddo on the bench. Puts the onus on them to do something with Renouf, Bailey and Roughy

[Greystache]

Did he get elavated?

No, but T Hill has been put on the LTIL. Surprised he wasn't elevated and put in the squad.

[G-Mo77]

Surely only one ruck this week, given it's against Hawthorn?

I'm wondering about that. Marco/Williams pinch hit maybe? It seems like Williams' hands will be full though with Franklin.

I'll take a guess at the final bench.

Josh Hill, Lukas Markovic, Justin Sherman, Nathan Djerrkura (Sub)


No, but T Hill has been put on the LTIL. Surprised he wasn't elevated and put in the squad.

So am I.

[Remi Moses]

Just dumbfounded! I think we can finally confirm Andrew Hilditch as our new selector.
Franklin to kick 19 30 this week! I like Lukas Markovic,but he doesn't have the aerobic capacity to get near Franklin. We have a 600 grand a year FB wallowing in the 2's.
STAGGERING! One would think you'd put it to Brian and give him the challenge.:confused:

[The Bulldogs Bite]

No, but T Hill has been put on the LTIL. Surprised he wasn't elevated and put in the squad.

What hapened to Hill? Not good given his injury history.

[Throughandthrough]

Just dumbfounded! I think we can finally confirm Andrew Hilditch as our new selector.
Franklin to kick 19 30 this week! I like Lukas Markovic,but he doesn't have the aerobic capacity to get near Franklin. We have a 600 grand a year FB wallowing in the 2's.
STAGGERING! One would think you'd put it to Brian and give him the challenge.:confused:



Steve Silvagni also used to be an awesome full back, but we didn't name him either


Spots are meant to be earned on footy teams, not just given away as per reputation.

[Go_Dogs]

Tom Hill is placed on LTIL

Ahh, didn't realise this, thanks.

[G-Mo77]

Just dumbfounded! I think we can finally confirm Andrew Hilditch as our new selector.
Franklin to kick 19 30 this week! I like Lukas Markovic,but he doesn't have the aerobic capacity to get near Franklin. We have a 600 grand a year FB wallowing in the 2's.
STAGGERING! One would think you'd put it to Brian and give him the challenge.:confused:

It's surprising. I had Lake pencilled in after I heard he trained quite well. I'm sure Williams will get the job on him this week which is a bit of a worry considering he was the main culprit in the Kennedy debacle last week.

[Remi Moses]

No, but T Hill has been put on the LTIL. Surprised he wasn't elevated and put in the squad.

Just another shocker from The MC!
If. their going to give us the form tripe (re. Lake)yet they don't play this kid when He's running hot! Circus down there

[Greystache]

What hapened to Hill? Not good given his injury history.

Foot injury, but don't know specifically what the problem is. Let's hope it's not a navicular.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Foot injury, but don't know specifically what the problem is. Let's hope it's not a navicular.

Fingers crossed. Thanks.

Does anyone know what Hill's injuries were prior to being drafted? Were they his knees, or am I making it up?

[LostDoggy]

Just dumbfounded! I think we can finally confirm Andrew Hilditch as our new selector.
Franklin to kick 19 30 this week! I like Lukas Markovic,but he doesn't have the aerobic capacity to get near Franklin. We have a 600 grand a year FB wallowing in the 2's.
STAGGERING! One would think you'd put it to Brian and give him the challenge.:confused:
?
If we don't win in midfield or can't get out of defence, it won't matter who plays on Franklin. The way Brian played his last 2 senior games, it not like he is gonna trouble Franklin. Leigh Brown and Kelper Bradley beat him.

[the banker]

Barry looked very sharp pre season. Fast and fit. His speed is important. Lost it obviously with the ankle. We look much better with him in and menacing.

Sherman has to play. I would play Hill as a jumping spoiler down back before Markovic. Hawthorn only have 2 talls down there and Roughead will spend quite a bit of time on ball. We need to be mobile to break the lines. Buddy looks ominous, good luck to Morris and Williams, one of them needs an outstanding game. Hopefully Libba and Ward can cope with the Hodge, Lewis, Sewell and Mitchell hard bodies. That is the key. Maybe Hudson will play to give us some body strength or Gia has to go to the midfield. If they get a strong advantage at the centre breaks we will be under seige down back.

Sherman, Hill, Moles sub DJ on the bench. Going small, may need to rotate the kids a lot..

[LostDoggy]

I don't understand how we can have Boyd, Cross, Libba, Ward, Picken, Wallis in the team & then Moles and Reid on the bench, that's some serious lack of pace.

Add to that, Gia and Higgins in the forward line.

[bornadog]

Just another shocker from The MC!If. their going to give us the form tripe (re. Lake)yet they don't play this kid when He's running hot! Circus down there

Come on how many kids do you want in the team? The guy is a rookie, has done a few good things. He will get his chance.

[Remi Moses]

Steve Silvagni also used to be an awesome full back, but we didn't name him either


Spots are meant to be earned on footy teams, not just given away as per reputation.

Come back to me after Franklin kicks a dozen Sunday!
Nice glib response we have a 600 a year FB wallowing at Williamstown!
One would think Dalhaus has earnt an elevation , but we just get mixed messages.
I'd suspect the only people pleased would be Clarkson and Franklin!

[Remi Moses]

Come on how many kids do you want in the team? The guy is a rookie, has done a few good things. He will get his chance.

Good there playing kids ! We've picked to many players of the same Ilk
Sam Reid, wallis, Boyd , Cross, Libba. I'd have Dalhaus in for Reid ( who is also inexperienced)

[Rocco Jones]

Just dumbfounded! I think we can finally confirm Andrew Hilditch as our new selector.
Franklin to kick 19 30 this week! I like Lukas Markovic,but he doesn't have the aerobic capacity to get near Franklin. We have a 600 grand a year FB wallowing in the 2's.
STAGGERING! One would think you'd put it to Brian and give him the challenge.:confused:

I am all up for having a go at the MC/Eade at the moment but have you seen Lake play for Willy? Wow, Nick Saunter is a chance to kick 19.30 on him. I know there's the whole he will spot up thing but it's also coming off woeful AFL form. He was completely horrendous against Kepler Bradley and Leigh Brown in his last 2 games at the level.

Like few posters, I would go with Josh Hill, Lukas Markovic, Justin Sherman and Nathan Djerrkura as sub, although I would love to see Sam Reid get a gig.

[LostDoggy]

Heard a strong word the Moles won't play due to a shoulder injury at training

[Throughandthrough]

Come back to me after Franklin kicks a dozen Sunday!
Nice glib response we have a 600 a year FB wallowing at Williamstown!



If Lake was fit, not fat, firing, in form, and looked like he gave a fig i'd pick him for sure.

And i'm not sure how much someone gets paid is relevant.

[westbulldog]

Steve Silvagni also used to be an awesome full back, but we didn't name him either


Spots are meant to be earned on footy teams, not just given away as per reputation.

Secveral selections for this game can only be based on 'reputation' given their (non) performance last week.

I would unreservedly select Brian Lake. He has the proven ability to do much better than our defenders last week, he can certainly do no worse. Franklin and Roughhead have the ability to do the same as Kennedy, Lynch, Darling and Cox did last week. I hope to be proven wrong.

[Mofra]

Tom Hill is placed on LTIL
That's a damn shame, the kid had a torrid time of it as a junior with injuries, the only reason we got him cheaply.
Moved pretty well last time I saw him play.

[bornadog]

Good there playing kids ! We've picked to many players of the same Ilk
Sam Reid, wallis, Boyd , Cross, Libba. I'd have Dalhaus in for Reid ( who is also inexperienced)

How many times have you been down to watch Willi play?

[Jasper]

Not much comment on Higgins' inclusion. Thought he might be injured, heard on the coverage he got a head knock and a shoulder knock, and of course there is his groin...I wonder if he will play?

[bornadog]

Not much comment on Higgins inclusion. Thought he might be injured, heard on the coverage he got head knock and a shoulder knock, and of course there is groin...I wonder if he will play?

He had a cut above his eye and lots of blood flowing.

[Jasper]

He had a cut above his eye and lots of blood flowing.

Okay so was concussion why his game was so ordinary or was it his groin...or was he just poor...?

Grant going out is good.

Stack going out is good

Gilbee going out is good

Interesting if Huddo plays.

Of course the outs have to be replaced at the revolving door of Hill for Stack doesn't overly appeal.

Williams on Buddy in Lake's absence is a frightening thought.

[LostDoggy]

I hope the MC have had a good hard think this week and the boys don't get flogged or possibly win?

Might be the time to take up drinking again......................

Good luck Howard.

[Dogmatic]

I don't understand how we can have Boyd, Cross, Libba, Ward, Picken, Wallis in the team & then Moles and Reid on the bench, that's some serious lack of pace.

Add to that, Gia and Higgins in the forward line.


I totally agree, we have too many slow inside midfielders and slow small forwards like Gia, Higgins and Vez. I know that we don't necessarily have a Stephen Hill or Patrick Dangerfield waiting in the reserves but i think we need to play guys like Dj, Hooper, Stack just for team balance....even though they may not be better players than who we have in the team.

[LostDoggy]

Okay so was concussion why his game was so ordinary or was it his groin...or was he just poor...?

Grant going out is good.

Stack going out is good

Gilbee going out is good

Interesting if Huddo plays.

Of course the outs have to be replaced at the revolving door of Hill for Stack doesn't overly appeal.

Williams on Buddy in Lake's absence is a frightening thought.

Williams has done the job well before, i think it was down in Tassie.

[Jasper]

Williams has done the job well before, i think it was down in Tassie.

That was then, this is now - one swallow doesn't make a summer...

Williams' confidence and form may be less than back then. Also our defence was a more cohesive unit, our mids were applying pressure, and I think Lake was playing and able to help.

In short we were a better team back then, and I don't think Williams is particularly better.

[Rocco Jones]

Okay so was concussion why his game was so ordinary or was it his groin...or was he just poor...?

Some boxers have a glass jaw, Shaun has a glass body.

[LostDoggy]

I like the selection so far, at least there were some balls behind the decisions. Good luck Howard and I hope Reid plays too.
Grant deservedly has something to think about.
Would love to see Lake and the Coondog but if they aren't fit they can't play.

Winning this game might be a stretch but as long as they put in I will be far happier than last week.

[Scorlibo]

I'm impressed that Eade had the balls to drop a senior player (Gilbee)

Why? Gilbee was best on ground against Richmond, and was just gaining form before that, one bad game and he's the scapegoat. I realise people want to see change after such a horror loss, but dropping Gilbee is not an intelligent move.

Having said that, I wish Christian Howard all the best and hope he has a great debut with a few hoofing passes on display.

[EasternWest]

Some boxers have a glass jaw, Shaun has a glass body.

They call me Mr Glass!!!!

/obscure?

http://leangreenmachine.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/unbreakable.jpg

[Rocco Jones]

They call me Mr Glass!!!!

/obscure?

http://leangreenmachine.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/unbreakable.jpg

I love it! He is totally Shaun Higgins.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Just dumbfounded! I think we can finally confirm Andrew Hilditch as our new selector.
Franklin to kick 19 30 this week! I like Lukas Markovic,but he doesn't have the aerobic capacity to get near Franklin. We have a 600 grand a year FB wallowing in the 2's.
STAGGERING! One would think you'd put it to Brian and give him the challenge.:confused:

That's what Christopher Skase said to Peter Knights about Warwick Capper


PS. Morris will play on Franklin

[LostDoggy]

That was then, this is now - one swallow doesn't make a summer...

Williams' confidence and form may be less than back then. Also our defence was a more cohesive unit, our mids were applying pressure, and I think Lake was playing and able to help.

In short we were a better team back then, and I don't think Williams is particularly better.

I agree.

[LostDoggy]

Williams on Buddy in Lake's absence is a frightening thought.

At least we will be able to see if this bloke is up to it or not. For heavens sake, he was a first round draft pick and he performs worse than an elevated rookie.

[LostDoggy]

Apologies if i missed something about this on another thread, but i thought that Cooney would only need a week's rest for his knee. Is there anything to suggest that it is worse that first thought?

[GVGjr]

Apologies if i missed something about this on another thread, but i thought that Cooney would only need a week's rest for his knee. Is there anything to suggest that it is worse that first thought?

The first assessment was that he would only miss a week so things must not have gone that well with training this week.

[AndrewP6]

Apologies if i missed something about this on another thread, but i thought that Cooney would only need a week's rest for his knee. Is there anything to suggest that it is worse that first thought?
It's been reported that the injury is one that will just need to be managed through the year.

[LostDoggy]

Apologies if i missed something about this on another thread, but i thought that Cooney would only need a week's rest for his knee. Is there anything to suggest that it is worse that first thought?

Has been confirmed as an ongoing problem with his kneecap, as I though it would be

http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showpost.php?p=215340&postcount=23

.

[Jasper]

At least we will be able to see if this bloke is up to it or not. For heavens sake, he was a first round draft pick and he performs worse than an elevated rookie.

I hate saying it but I agree (to the extent Franklin will captain my fantasy footy teams...). Having said that Morris may well play on Lance and while better than Williams, it doesn't overly excite me either. Particularly with the service Lance will get if our mids form and pressure is anything to go on. An unpressured Hodge, Burgoyne and Rioli drilling it to Lance on an undersized Morris or an underskilled Williams is...troubling

[bornadog]

That was then, this is now - one swallow doesn't make a summer...

Williams' confidence and form may be less than back then. Also our defence was a more cohesive unit, our mids were applying pressure, and I think Lake was playing and able to help.

In short we were a better team back then, and I don't think Williams is particularly better.

I don't agree, I think Williams is much more confident now than he was back then. Other than last week, he has played well this year and has been steady in the backline. He played well against Cloke who was in hot form and beat him. Last week, he looked like a player not ready to come back, but then again the whole backline was wobbly.

[LostDoggy]

Spots are meant to be earned on footy teams, not just given away as per reputation.




You do realise that this is a Bulldogs forum, right?

There is no coach in the AFL more in love with his favourites than Rodney Eade and he picks them consistently regardless of form.

Malthouse abandoned sentimentalism at the selection table and won a premiership with loyal club servants in the VFL; Eade would never have been capable of that.

His judgement on our list is compromised and it has hurt us already and will continue to hurt us in the future.

Why did a clearly finished Mitch Hahn play nineteen games last year when we should have given more opportunities to our kids? Why is he currently on our rookie list? How the hell did Giansiracusa finish in front of Cooney, Lake, Boyd, Hudson and Hall in the B&F last year? Why didn't they send Josh Hill back to the reserves sooner in 2009 so he could find his form before September instead of carrying him for weeks and dumping him at the end of the year? I could go on and on.

It is nothing short of ridiculous to suggest that the dumping of Gilbee, Grant and Stack in response to a 123 point thrashing is anything short of a cop out. Gilbee (who kicked six goals two weeks ago under the same roof that we'll be under on Sunday) isn't the apple in Rodney's eye like Giansiracusa, Higgins, Williams and Cross are. Dropping him is easier (and pretty bloody foolish).

Whilst Grant and Stack may benefit from a run in the VFL, they have played less than fifty games between them. Teams don't lose by 123 points because two inexperienced players in the forward line weren't up to it and one veteran was below standard. That's pathetic.

We looked horribly slow against West Coast and we've just dropped two guys with a bit of pace. We were smashed in contested possessions by the largest margin in our history and we've dropped outside players. Our defensive efforts were a disgrace and we've dropped a forward and a couple of flankers.

I'm not convinced that we've addressed the real problems.

This is same old, same old. The wheels fall off at the top, Eade protects his favourites, smacks one guy he's fallen out of love with and punishes a couple of kids.

[LostDoggy]

You do realise that this is a Bulldogs forum, right?

There is no coach in the AFL more in love with his favourites than Rodney Eade and he picks them consistently regardless of form.

<Rant>

This is same old, same old. The wheels fall off at the top, Eade protects his favourites, smacks one guy he's fallen out of love with and punishes a couple of kids.

I just don't buy much of this. Last year Lake, Cooney, Gilbee, Hudson, Grant would all have been playing this week. We called for blood when they played injured players previously - Cooney/Lake are both out until they get it right so that fitter players get a shot. We hated when Eade played out of form favourites/"name" players - the MC has taken a stand on Grant, Gilbee and possibly Hudson who would have been walk up starters every week on reputation previously.

You can only hold the MC and Coach accountable for current decisions and IMO your overview suggests anger rolled over from last season rather than a current analysis.

[G-Mo77]

They call me Mr Glass!!!!

/obscure?

http://leangreenmachine.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/unbreakable.jpg

Ha ha, was thinking the exact same thing

:D

[LostDoggy]

the MC has taken a stand on Grant, Gilbee and possibly Hudson who would have been walk up starters every week on reputation previously.



What stand? Do you think Grant and Gilbee were the cause of our 123 point defeat? Were they even in our worst five players on the ground? Worst ten?

We lost contested possession by more than fifty. That's not on Grant and Gilbee. Our clearances were shocking. Again, not Grant and Gilbee's full time department. Our defense leaked goals and was pathetic in one on one contests, see a trend here? Sure, they and Stack were crap and lazy too, but I'd be worried about anyone who watched that game objectively and thought that that Grant and Gilbee most deserved to carry the can for the loss. They, unlike a few others who were awful last week, were also quite good the week before.

Do you honestly think that the dropping of a fading flanker and a young forward will be the 'stand' that sends shockwaves throughout the team? Do you think that everyone now feels that they are on notice because Gilbee (the 2011 version, not 2008) and Grant (Jarrad, not Chris) have been omitted?

You don't lose by 123 points without making changes. Rather than addressing the form issues of some of our most important players (the guys who really were responsible for the thrashing), Eade picked the easiest targets in the team to dump, just like he always does.

You think that's taking a stand?





You can only hold the MC and Coach accountable for current decisions and IMO your overview suggests anger rolled over from last season rather than a current analysis.



That is quite possibly the silliest thing that I've ever read in this forum. A discussion on current Match Committee selections is enhanced by an understanding of their performance to date. History can repeat itself or we can learn from our mistakes. You might want to take your blinkers off.

2010 showed that wise team selection is crucial for Premiership success. We have a coach who has consistently allowed under performing seniors to retain their spots in the team and it has had a negative impact on the club.

If Malthouse displayed the same loyalty at the selection table, then Lockyer, Medhurst, Fraser and O'Bree would have been in the seniors in September and 2010 could have played out very differently.

[macca]

[QUOTE=The Rocket;217399]You do realise that this is a Bulldogs forum, right?

There is no coach in the AFL more in love with his favourites than Rodney Eade and he picks them consistently regardless of form.

Malthouse abandoned sentimentalism at the selection table and won a premiership with loyal club servants in the VFL; Eade would never have been capable of that. ]

Agreed. The number of players that have been dropped or reinvented by Malthouse is impressive. Leon Davis, dropped in 2nd GF, reinvented as a half back flanker, Toovey was struggling to get a game 2 years ago, Chris Dawes, and Leigh Brown discarded by North Melbourne. Hard decisions on senior player to play the kids infront of them, obree, licuria, lockyer, medhurst for Beams, Macaffer, Brad dick, Sidebottom, Thomas etc... Delisted Stanley, Illes , and Jarryd Blair, where has he come from ?

Apart from Harbrow who had lightening pace, and brilliant manoeuvring skills.

[Remi Moses]

Little unfair, after last weeks debacle 20 players would be dropped.
Come on be fair we've had a few debut this year. The only hit I have is that Lake should be playing give the lad the challenge of Buddy . A few others will get dropped if there are more poor efforts

[Mantis]

We looked horribly slow against West Coast and we've just dropped two guys with a bit of pace. We were smashed in contested possessions by the largest margin in our history and we've dropped outside players. Our defensive efforts were a disgrace and we've dropped a forward and a couple of flankers.

I'm not convinced that we've addressed the real problems.

This is same old, same old. The wheels fall off at the top, Eade protects his favourites, smacks one guy he's fallen out of love with and punishes a couple of kids.

So what are the real problems? Who should have paid the paid the price for an inept performance? You have no doubt highlighted areas of weakness from our game last week (as others have), but have not provided a resolution in how the problem should be tackled.

The efforts of our 'engine room' was disgusting in the last 45minutes last week so who from in there pays the price?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

There is no coach in the AFL more in love with his favourites than Rodney Eade and he picks them consistently regardless of form.


It is nothing short of ridiculous to suggest that the dumping of Gilbee, Grant and Stack in response to a 123 point thrashing is anything short of a cop out. Gilbee (who kicked six goals two weeks ago under the same roof that we'll be under on Sunday)


Whilst i agree with the summation Eade has picked his favourites in the past, I dont agree drastic changes should be made this week. I think Eade is giving the group one more chance to respond. This game against the Hawks will test what the group is made of. If they respond with a ferocious effort then thats what Eade is looking for. Grant deservedly got dropped. He has been hopeless this year with no improvement and no effot or intensity. Gilbee i agree was unlucky. He should be reinvented as a forward after his 6 goal bag but he is done as a defender.

However they are all on their final notice. Any poor individual performance this week from players who have consistently been poor this year and there should be no excuses to drop them. They are on their final notice and need to respond. No better opportunity like this week after a 123 point drubbing

[always right]

It's probably a little unfair to judge the response from the MC to last week until you see the final side. At the moment it is a squad and the only definite outs are Grant, Gilbee and Stack. At the moment Hudson, Sherman and Moles are all named on an extended interchange bench. If any of these three (or all of them) don't make the cut, what will be your view of the changes we've made?

Personally I've found it difficult to predict the changes for this week. Whilst our defence was smashed last week, it seemed that the damage was caused by our defensive effort at clearances and from our midfielders. So who were the culprits?

Boyd? Most acknowledged that he tried his heart out.
Cross? See above
Sherman? Seemed to be one of few that tried to make something happen
Liberatore? Can be cut some slack due to his inexperience
Griffen? Far from our worst but had little impact
Moles? Rot had well and truly set in when he came on but gave us nothing
Ward? Had a poor game but is well loved on this board and is usually hard at it
Hudson? Was run off his feet and smashed at clearances
Minson? Had no impact

Some supporters don't see a couple of these blokes as our future....fair enough, but based on last week's performance who deserved to be dropped? I would suggest all of them. At this stage only Sherman and Moles appear to be vulnerable based on them being listed on the extended bench. It's so hard to judge by watching the game on the TV......what I couldn't work out is who was on Shuey who seemed to be given a free rain?

If the final outs are Grant, Gilbee, Stack, Hudson, and one of Moles or Sherman, I would think that was a pretty strong response. Depending on the effort this week, we might see some other "regulars" playing for Willi in two weeks time.

[Mofra]

Why did a clearly finished Mitch Hahn play nineteen games last year when we should have given more opportunities to our kids? Why is he currently on our rookie list? How the hell did Giansiracusa finish in front of Cooney, Lake, Boyd, Hudson and Hall in the B&F last year? Why didn't they send Josh Hill back to the reserves sooner in 2009 so he could find his form before September instead of carrying him for weeks and dumping him at the end of the year? I could go on and on.
Maybe you should put that question in the context of who was trying to get a game.

You can't just axe blokes on perception - there needs to be a better alternative at Willy. Last year, there simply wasn't in most cases.

All of last year we heard the same story - Hahn & Gia were too slow to provide defensive pressure. The same people probably wouldn't believe they were the only two forwards who did provide adequate defensive pressure.

I do believe Rocket dropped Hahn early in his coaching tenure too when he was unhappy with a performance. He's dropped Gilbee after a poor showing. I expect Hudson wont play this week either.

The "favourites' myth isn't one that stands up well to proper scrutiny.

[Ozza]

I'm a bit disappointed that we would give Gilbee the boot this week - considering he is one of the blokes who can kick - and has reasonable pace.

Staggers me that Reid would be added to the squad. Hopefully he doesn't play. We have more than our fair share of slow players that don't use the ball well.

[bornadog]

Maybe you should put that question in the context of who was trying to get a game.

You can't just axe blokes on perception - there needs to be a better alternative at Willy. Last year, there simply wasn't in most cases.

All of last year we heard the same story - Hahn & Gia were too slow to provide defensive pressure. The same people probably wouldn't believe they were the only two forwards who did provide adequate defensive pressure.

I do believe Rocket dropped Hahn early in his coaching tenure too when he was unhappy with a performance. He's dropped Gilbee after a poor showing. I expect Hudson wont play this week either.

The "favourites' myth isn't one that stands up well to proper scrutiny.

Couldn't agree more, I am sick and tired of reading that we didn't drop players last year when we should have. Yes we should have but again I say who put up their hand amongst the young players?

[Mantis]

I'm a bit disappointed that we would give Gilbee the boot this week - considering he is one of the blokes who can kick - and has reasonable pace.

He used his best asset (his kicking) just 4 times last week. That simply isn't good enough so he gets replaced by a young player who is looked upon as his long term replacement.


Staggers me that Reid would be added to the squad. Hopefully he doesn't play. We have more than our fair share of slow players that don't use the ball well.

I like what Reid brings to the table, but I agree that he can't play in the same team as Boyd, Wallis, Cross, Ward & Libba.

[w3design]

We have gone from a team that couldn't execute our skills under intense pressure, hence our consistent failure to beat the top teams, to a team that can't execute our skills at all. The drop off in the kicking skills at the club is marked and is one of the main reasons we look so slow. I'm not looking for someone to come into the side who has quick leg speed, I'm looking for someone who can't execute skills under pressure and kick, no one springs to mind. I've been a strong supporter of Eade but we have gone backwards in all areas this year and injuries are not the only reason.

[Cyberdoggie]

What stand? Do you think Grant and Gilbee were the cause of our 123 point defeat? Were they even in our worst five players on the ground? Worst ten?
.

Grant had 1 kick and 4 handballs. Least possesions on the ground and 2 tackles.
Statistically he wasn't too flash.

Gilbee had 4 kicks and 4 handballs,

[Cyberdoggie]

I like what Reid brings to the table, but I agree that he can't play in the same team as Boyd, Wallis, Cross, Ward & Libba.

Certainly the balance wouldn't be right but he does bring some toughness and he loves to tackle. That is something we could use, especially in the middle.

[Doc26]

He used his best asset (his kicking) just 4 times last week. That simply isn't good enough so he gets replaced by a young player who is looked upon as his long term replacement.

I like what Reid brings to the table, but I agree that he can't play in the same team as Boyd, Wallis, Cross, Ward & Libba.


Certainly the balance wouldn't be right but he does bring some toughness and he loves to tackle. That is something we could use, especially in the middle.

I'm an advocate of Sam's as well in particular for the hardness he brings.
What concerns me though is that although his mind is willing can his body, in particular his shoulders, stand up to the rigour and intensity that he's built his game on ?

[Cyberdoggie]

I'm an advocate of Sam's as well in particular for the hardness he brings.
What concerns me though is that although his mind is willing can his body, in particular his shoulders, stand up to the rigour and intensity that he's built his game on ?

Possibly not, but i know he'll have a crack.
I was doubtfull that he could play that style of game after he did both shoulders in the hawks game last year, but he is playing the only way he knows how and i believe he's actually improved on his skill level as well. His hands are much better and his kicking is improving. Sam pretty much lays a tackle at every center bounce, and not just a little one i'm talking one where he brings them to the ground.

[Desipura]

123 point drubbing and we drop 3 flankers Stack, Grant and Gilbee. Not really making a statement are they?

[The Coon Dog]

123 point drubbing and we drop 3 flankers Stack, Grant and Gilbee. Not really making a statement are they?

Don't really know until later today. At the moment its just 3, might be more, might not be.

[Mantis]

123 point drubbing and we drop 3 flankers Stack, Grant and Gilbee. Not really making a statement are they?

These 3 combined for a total of 8 kicks for the match which isn't good enough and it's why they have been dropped.

Sure there could have been a few more ommitted, and quite possibly there will be another 1 or 2 when the team is finalised, but some of our worst players last week had been good over previous weeks and probably deserve the opportunity to redeem themselves.

And where was it said that at the selection table a statement would be made?

[LostDoggy]

[QUOTE=Mantis;217419]

Who should have paid the paid the price for an inept performance?

[QUOTE]

1. Shaun Higgins. How many times can he tell the Match Committee that he's right to play only to leave us all hoping that he's still injured so we can explain how bad he was? It's unacceptable and he needs to learn that. He can also prove his fitness at Willy this week.

2. Tom Williams. It wasn't physical capabilities holding him back; it was mental application. He's been around for a while now and he, and the team, need to learn that that lack of effort will not be tolerated.

3. Daniel Cross. Yes he's committed, but we are a team that is too slow across the ground and the worst kicking team in the AFL, and Crossy is the king of both deficiencies. Our midfield was a disgrace and he was in it for most of the day. We need to put games into Wallis and try out one or two others but we can't keep adding one paced players to one of the slowest midfields in the competition. Someone has to make room and it can be him. I know that he's played more defensively this year but the fact is that he hasn't played to his previous standards.

4. Ben Hudson. Age has caught up with him a little this year. He can rip apart a rookie from Richmond but is being demolished by the good ruckmen in the league. Can't imagine that it'd be fun to be a short ruckman against Nic Nat and Cox, but he had to do more and almost gave away more free kicks than he had actual possessions.

5. Daniel Giansiracusa. Is the Vice Captain of the club and has had far too little influence on our games this year. Gia is in the leadership group; Gilbee is not. Gia was hardly awe inspiring against Richmond; Gilbee kicked six. Think that's a coincidence? Hell will freeze over before Eade contemplates dropping this guy.


Those five players aren't the only reasons why we were smashed, but they are senior players (4 of whom are in the leadership group) whose selection this week flies in the face of Eade's famous 'form and fitness' selection criteria. If Eade truly wanted to make a statement this week, then he would have dropped some of the guys who arrive at the ground knowing that they'll be getting a game next week no matter what. Who knows, maybe if he did it would make every other player on that list (and not just the ones Eade thinks are dispensable) a little hungrier because they will be fighting to keep their spot in the team.

[Desipura]

These 3 combined for a total of 8 kicks for the match which isn't good enough and it's why they have been dropped.

Sure there could have been a few more ommitted, and quite possibly there will be another 1 or 2 when the team is finalised, but some of our worst players last week had been good over previous weeks and probably deserve the opportunity to redeem themselves.

And where was it said that at the selection table a statement would be made?
On the scoreboard

[Desipura]

[QUOTE=Mantis;217419]

Who should have paid the paid the price for an inept performance?

[QUOTE]

1. Shaun Higgins. How many times can he tell the Match Committee that he's right to play only to leave us all hoping that he's still injured so we can explain how bad he was? It's unacceptable and he needs to learn that. He can also prove his fitness at Willy this week.

2. Tom Williams. It wasn't physical capabilities holding him back; it was mental application. He's been around for a while now and he, and the team, need to learn that that lack of effort will not be tolerated.

3. Daniel Cross. Yes he's committed, but we are a team that is too slow across the ground and the worst kicking team in the AFL, and Crossy is the king of both deficiencies. Our midfield was a disgrace and he was in it for most of the day. We need to put games into Wallis and try out one or two others but we can't keep adding one paced players to one of the slowest midfields in the competition. Someone has to make room and it can be him. I know that he's played more defensively this year but the fact is that he hasn't played to his previous standards.

4. Ben Hudson. Age has caught up with him a little this year. He can rip apart a rookie from Richmond but is being demolished by the good ruckmen in the league. Can't imagine that it'd be fun to be a short ruckman against Nic Nat and Cox, but he had to do more and almost gave away more free kicks than he had actual possessions.

5. Daniel Giansiracusa. Is the Vice Captain of the club and has had far too little influence on our games this year. Gia is in the leadership group; Gilbee is not. Gia was hardly awe inspiring against Richmond; Gilbee kicked six. Think that's a coincidence? Hell will freeze over before Eade contemplates dropping this guy.


Those five players aren't the only reasons why we were smashed, but they are senior players (4 of whom are in the leadership group) whose selection this week flies in the face of Eade's famous 'form and fitness' selection criteria. If Eade truly wanted to make a statement this week, then he would have dropped some of the guys who arrive at the ground knowing that they'll be getting a game next week no matter what. Who knows, maybe if he did it would make every other player on that list (and not just the ones Eade thinks are dispensable) a little hungrier because they will be fighting to keep their spot in the team.
I cannot argue with anything you have posted, totally agree.

[LostDoggy]

Maybe you should put that question in the context of who was trying to get a game.

You can't just axe blokes on perception - there needs to be a better alternative at Willy. Last year, there simply wasn't in most cases.

All of last year we heard the same story - Hahn & Gia were too slow to provide defensive pressure. The same people probably wouldn't believe they were the only two forwards who did provide adequate defensive pressure.

I do believe Rocket dropped Hahn early in his coaching tenure too when he was unhappy with a performance. He's dropped Gilbee after a poor showing. I expect Hudson wont play this week either.

The "favourites' myth isn't one that stands up well to proper scrutiny.


Depends on your definition of 'proper scrutiny', Mofra.

If 'proper scrutiny' means suggesting that Hahn and Gia provided adequate forward pressure last year, and reminding us of Hahn being dropped once in 2006 and Gilbee once in 2011, then you're right, it doesn't.

However if 'proper scrutiny' means watching how our team has been selected consistently over a number of years and how a number of out of form players have consistently been given games regardless of their output, then actually, it does.

I watched Williamstown most weeks last year. The cupboard wasn't nearly so empty as to justify Hahn getting a game consistently after round eighteen when he should have been sent packing. We had options, but Eade had committed to Yesterday's Heroes and was unwilling to change.

[The Pie Man]

^^

I thought Higgins might have been in trouble - though perhaps he will be 'better for the run'

Hudson may still not play, will await the final team in a few hours

Williams was quite bad last week I'll concede, but he's another that should be 'better for the run'

I would not have dropped Cross or Gia - I think it's worth seeing Cross in the forward half, but of course I'll defer to the MC's wisdom. Gia wasn't that bad last week in my view.

[bornadog]

I watched Williamstown most weeks last year. The cupboard wasn't nearly so empty as to justify Hahn getting a game consistently after round eighteen when he should have been sent packing. We had options, but Eade had committed to Yesterday's Heroes and was unwilling to change.

I am pretty much sick of reading this sort of garbage about Eade and his favourite players that he won't drop.

Come on "The Rocket" tell us which players put their hands up in 2010 that warranted a game and didn't get a game?

[bornadog]

^^

Gia wasn't that bad last week in my view.

With limited opportunity, he contributed to half our goals.

[Mofra]

Depends on your definition of 'proper scrutiny', Mofra.

If 'proper scrutiny' means suggesting that Hahn and Gia provided adequate forward pressure last year, and reminding us of Hahn being dropped once in 2006 and Gilbee once in 2011, then you're right, it doesn't.

However if 'proper scrutiny' means watching how our team has been selected consistently over a number of years and how a number of out of form players have consistently been given games regardless of their output, then actually, it does.

I watched Williamstown most weeks last year. The cupboard wasn't nearly so empty as to justify Hahn getting a game consistently after round eighteen when he should have been sent packing. We had options, but Eade had committed to Yesterday's Heroes and was unwilling to change.
Hahn and Gia laid more tackles than all our other forwards combined last year, considering Hill was used all over the pack.
I note nobody has been able to challenge the downhill skiier refence to Barry Hall in a few threads I've posted in - I guess only some players are required to adhere to basic team principles. Change Hall's name to Gia and most would want him beheaded.

The fact is, senior players with senior experience will generally perform better than untried youngsters - and we seem to have a system in place for developing youngsters in any case, considering the method of debut used for Sam Reid, Jarrod Grant, Josh Hill & Liam Jones.

The calls for Skinner's inclusion in the senior side have dropped off since his debut too - maybe the grass isn't always greener on the other side?

Has anyone actually considered the radical proposal that full time professionals with 100% of the information actually know the playing list better than Joe Public sitting on the sidelines? Shock horror! :eek:

[Mofra]

I would not have dropped Cross or Gia - I think it's worth seeing Cross in the forward half, but of course I'll defer to the MC's wisdom. Gia wasn't that bad last week in my view.
I doubt we'll ever see Cross come off the field beaten for lack of effort, and he can actually find the ball - with a 100 disposal differential, thsi bit actually becomes important.

Forget the goal tally, Gia & Jones were the two standout forwards last week in terms of actually providing a lead as much as possible - we desperately need targets to kick to and they were the only two forwards who did so.

[Sedat]

I watched Williamstown most weeks last year. The cupboard wasn't nearly so empty as to justify Hahn getting a game consistently after round eighteen when he should have been sent packing. We had options, but Eade had committed to Yesterday's Heroes and was unwilling to change.
A legitimate criticism in hindsight but this senior core had served the team well for 3 seasons and being late in the season the MC presumably went with the senior group to lead them home. Cooney and Morris going down shot our September plans to ribbons, irrespective of whether or not the majority of the team was dad's army.

Rocket has certainly given the team ample fresh blood in 2011.

[w3design]

I doubt we'll ever see Cross come off the field beaten for lack of effort, and he can actually find the ball - with a 100 disposal differential, thsi bit actually becomes important.

Forget the goal tally, Gia & Jones were the two standout forwards last week in terms of actually providing a lead as much as possible - we desperately need targets to kick to and they were the only two forwards who did so.

This is a problem though if he can't use the ball properly. I love Crossy but the amount of time we find the ball in the wrong player's hands to hurt the opposition is astounding. Once the opposition cover our good ball users, which is only Murphy this season, we are in real strife because none of our players can hurt the opposition by foot.

[w3design]

Rocket has certainly given the team ample fresh blood in 2011.

Yes, he has but only by necessity. Liberatore is the only youngster at the start of the season who earnt his selection by merit, Wallis is the another who had a good preseason. Others have played more because of injuries to key players. It has been the proverbial shuffling of deckchairs.

[westdog54]

Final Bench is Moles, Hill, Reid and Sherman. Howard and Wallis named on the ground.

Emergencies are Hudson, Djerkurra and Markovic.

So we're playing Howard, Wallis, Libba, Ward, Wood and Reid in the same game. And we've dropped Hudson and Gilbee.

I hear one more crack about Eade 'playing favourites' and not playing kids I will dead set blow my top.

Minson has the challenge of his career ahead of him. Looks like he might be rucking for a full game, unless Williams or Jones Pinch-hit.

[G-Mo77]

Williams/Morris to play on Franklin then.

Good to see Reid in the team.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Hahn and Gia laid more tackles than all our other forwards combined last year, considering Hill was used all over the pack.
I note nobody has been able to challenge the downhill skiier refence to Barry Hall in a few threads I've posted in - I guess only some players are required to adhere to basic team principles. Change Hall's name to Gia and most would want him beheaded.

The fact is, senior players with senior experience will generally perform better than untried youngsters - and we seem to have a system in place for developing youngsters in any case, considering the method of debut used for Sam Reid, Jarrod Grant, Josh Hill & Liam Jones.

The calls for Skinner's inclusion in the senior side have dropped off since his debut too - maybe the grass isn't always greener on the other side?

Has anyone actually considered the radical proposal that full time professionals with 100% of the information actually know the playing list better than Joe Public sitting on the sidelines? Shock horror! :eek:

Wish I'd written that.

[bornadog]

Final Bench is Moles, Hill, Reid and Sherman. Howard and Wallis named on the ground.

Emergencies are Hudson, Djerkurra and Markovic.

So we're playing Howard, Wallis, Libba, Ward, Wood and Reid in the same game. And we've dropped Hudson and Gilbee.

I hear one more crack about Eade 'playing favourites' and not playing kids I will dead set blow my top.

Minson has the challenge of his career ahead of him. Looks like he might be rucking for a full game, unless Williams or Jones Pinch-hit.

Would have liked DJ in rather than Reid, but I guess Reids hardness at tyhe ball and the ability to spread quickly got him over the line.

[the banker]

Radical.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Final Bench is Moles, Hill, Reid and Sherman. Howard and Wallis named on the ground.

Emergencies are Hudson, Djerkurra and Markovic.

So we're playing Howard, Wallis, Libba, Ward, Wood and Reid in the same game. And we've dropped Hudson and Gilbee.

I hear one more crack about Eade 'playing favourites' and not playing kids I will dead set blow my top.

Minson has the challenge of his career ahead of him. Looks like he might be rucking for a full game, unless Williams or Jones Pinch-hit.

You are joking, right?

This is a great move by the MC, but understand this has taken FAR too long. To expect people to put a smile on their face and pretend 'everything's fine' is ridiculous. We are not sheep; we have the ability to analyse and criticise where we see fit.

As I said, I'm glad these changes have been made ... but I'm not about to be singing Eade's praises. It's overdue, and after a 120 point drubbing, it's not as though he had much choice.

[Sedat]

Provided Hall is aerobically fit enough (and he should be OK given he had a good hitout in the VFL last week), I'd like to see him as the pinch-hit ruck option whenever Minno needs a breather, leaving Jones deep when Hall does go into the ruck.

Those that saw Hall in the VFL last week, did he look OK post-surgery? He was moving around the ground like an old man against Freo so I hope the operation has put the spring back in his legs.

[Mantis]

Would have liked DJ in rather than Reid, but I guess Reids hardness at tyhe ball and the ability to spread quickly got him over the line.

Is this a new feature of Sam's game?

[Rocco Jones]

Those that saw Hall in the VFL last week, did he look OK post-surgery? He was moving around the ground like an old man against Freo so I hope the operation has put the spring back in his legs.

He moved well in a VFL/old school FF way. Looked like a gazelle on the lead and a sloth everywhere else.

Not sure if it's the injury or his age/style but I really can't see him offering much defensively. I think we sacrifice a bit in playing him but I do believe he is worth it, just have to be wary with who we play around him. Very happy to see Hudson out as I think Hudson, Minson and Hall do not belong in the same side.

[Ozza]

Would have liked DJ in rather than Reid, but I guess Reids hardness at tyhe ball and the ability to spread quickly got him over the line.

Would have preferred DJ also. I'm personally not convinced about Sam Reid as an AFL footballer whatsoever - but I would be ecstatic to be proven wrong!!!

[bornadog]

Is this a new feature of Sam's game?

According to Rocket that is one of the things he does

[DOG GOD]

Final Bench is Moles, Hill, Reid and Sherman. Howard and Wallis named on the ground.

Emergencies are Hudson, Djerkurra and Markovic.

So we're playing Howard, Wallis, Libba, Ward, Wood and Reid in the same game. And we've dropped Hudson and Gilbee.

I hear one more crack about Eade 'playing favourites' and not playing kids I will dead set blow my top.
Minson has the challenge of his career ahead of him. Looks like he might be rucking for a full game, unless Williams or Jones Pinch-hit.

Gia (5-6 great games a year) and Cross are still getting games.

[LostDoggy]

What stand? Do you think Grant and Gilbee were the cause of our 123 point defeat? Were they even in our worst five players on the ground? Worst ten?

You think that's taking a stand? .[/B] .

Yes; it's called balance. You want to play the whole seagull side? I'm confident the MC looked at last week and has addressed key performances in this weeks selections.



That is quite possibly the silliest thing that I've ever read in this forum. A discussion on current Match Committee selections is enhanced by an understanding of their performance to date. History can repeat itself or we can learn from our mistakes. You might want to take your blinkers off. .

Right back at ya ;)

[Before I Die]

What stand? Do you think Grant and Gilbee were the cause of our 123 point defeat? Were they even in our worst five players on the ground? Worst ten?


Yes, indisputably they were.

Do you really believe that "making a stand" or "sending a shock wave" is the answer? If this were true then Football Clubs are spending a lot of unnecessary money on staff and resources. You quote the Collingwood situation as evidence. For all you know Collingwood may have still won the flag with Lockyer, Medhurst etc still in the team. Maybe not, but we will never know. Lyon "made a stand" and he didn't win a Premiership. if you want to claim that making a Grand Final is evidence of success I may ask you to reconcile this with your line about "accepting mediocrity".

I apologise if I have attributed quotes to you which are not yours, however I am sure I have accurately reflected your contention.

[LostDoggy]

Hahn and Gia laid more tackles than all our other forwards combined last year, considering Hill was used all over the pack.




That isn't true.

Gia and Hahn (148 tackles) did not out tackle the rest of our forwards combined (246 tackles to Higgins, Aker, Stack, Grant, Jones, Hall, Hill, Murphy and Johnson) last year. Higgins and Hill did spend time in the middle, but so did Gia and Hahn finished his career at half back.

When evaluating small forwards, I wouldn't get too excited about Gia's tackling average of 3.76 a game last year (2.2 in 2011) or Hahn's of 2.84. They really aren't that good.





Change Hall's name to Gia and most would want him beheaded.




Will Gia Mark 2 still be the giant of a man who plays key position and kicked all those goals last year? I like this Gia more than the current one (and I don't dislike Gia; I just thing he has been played at times when his form has not warranted it).

There's a big difference between a 33 year old power forward and a 27 year old flanker.





The fact is, senior players with senior experience will generally perform better than untried youngsters



If Mick Malthouse had held firmly to that fact last year, would Collingwood have won a Premiership? Every senior player at Collingwood knows that they will be dropped if their form wanes. There is no room for complacency on that list. Malthouse puts games into kids when their form at VFL level does not necessarily warrant it to see how they perform at the elite level. He has reaped the rewards.

A strong criticism of Rodney Eade is that by never dropping senior players regardless of their output he has fostered an environment in which the senior players have not been completely challenged to perform at the best. Dropping a member of the leadership group after three poor weeks might bring them back hungrier and might stop others taking their spots for granted. It is a legitimate criticism. I hope he has learnt from his mistakes.





Has anyone actually considered the radical proposal that full time professionals with 100% of the information actually know the playing list better than Joe Public sitting on the sidelines? Shock horror! :eek:



There are a lot of full time professionals in football that lose their jobs each year. Have you ever considered that not all of them are successful in their roles? Or that someone who is good at many facets of his role might have one shortcoming?

Radical.

[azabob]

Would have preferred DJ also. I'm personally not convinced about Sam Reid as an AFL footballer whatsoever - but I would be ecstatic to be proven wrong!!!

Interesting call. If we didn't have similar sorts of players would your opinion still be as strong?

[LostDoggy]

I apologise if I have attributed quotes to you which are not yours, however I am sure I have accurately reflected your contention.



You've attributed all sorts of crap to me that I never wrote. Next time have the courtesy to keep track of who wrote what instead of taking a stab and offering a lame apology if you were wrong. That's a shit act.

My contention is obvious enough. I don't believe that senior players who lose form should continue to be guaranteed selection regardless of their output. I think that it sets the wrong standard for the entire playing list. I think we have a coach who has made that mistake before and I hope he has learnt from that mistake because it is perhaps his largest shortcoming as a coach. The dumping of Grant, Stack and Gilbee did little to make me think he has. Hudson is a step in the right direction.

[Before I Die]

If Mick Malthouse had held firmly to that fact last year, would Collingwood have won a Premiership?

Possibly, there is no way of knowing. Just because you believe something doesn't make it true.

Every senior player at Collingwood knows that they will be dropped if their form wanes. There is no room for complacency on that list. Malthouse puts games into kids when their form at VFL level does not necessarily warrant it to see how they perform at the elite level. He has reaped the rewards.

If this is the magic formula why has it taken Mick ten years to discover it? Maybe, just maybe there are other things that contributed to Collingwood winning the flag.

A strong criticism of Rodney Eade is that by never dropping senior players regardless of their output he has fostered an environment in which the senior players have not been completely challenged to perform at the best.

A strong criticism by who? I don't think it is valid to quote yourself as a supporting source for your own argument.

Hi The Rocket. I am afraid i don't agree with some of your points. My thoughts are the bolded text that I have included in the quote i have taken from your post.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Great, detailed posts Rocket.

Enjoyed the read and agree wholeheartedly.

[Ghost Dog]

Cheers Rocket. Enjoyed and agreed
The irony is that Willy has been a much stronger club than Collingwood's at VFL level. You would think that means more competition for places in the firsts.

But that's last year. Now we can't find a senior player for love or money, besides maybe Morris, who turns up to play in a consistent way.

[Desipura]

Is this a new feature of Sam's game?

Beat me to it

[Pickenitup]

Expect Moles to be a late withdrawl with a shoulder injury.

[Before I Die]

What stand? Do you think Grant and Gilbee were the cause of our 123 point defeat? Were they even in our worst five players on the ground? Worst ten?

We lost contested possession by more than fifty. That's not on Grant and Gilbee. Our clearances were shocking. Again, not Grant and Gilbee's full time department. Our defense leaked goals and was pathetic in one on one contests, see a trend here? Sure, they and Stack were crap and lazy too, but I'd be worried about anyone who watched that game objectively and thought that that Grant and Gilbee most deserved to carry the can for the loss. They, unlike a few others who were awful last week, were also quite good the week before.

Do you honestly think that the dropping of a fading flanker and a young forward will be the 'stand' that sends shockwaves throughout the team? Do you think that everyone now feels that they are on notice because Gilbee (the 2011 version, not 2008) and Grant (Jarrad, not Chris) have been omitted?

You don't lose by 123 points without making changes. Rather than addressing the form issues of some of our most important players (the guys who really were responsible for the thrashing), Eade picked the easiest targets in the team to dump, just like he always does.

You think that's taking a stand?




That is quite possibly the silliest thing that I've ever read in this forum. A discussion on current Match Committee selections is enhanced by an understanding of their performance to date. History can repeat itself or we can learn from our mistakes. You might want to take your blinkers off.

2010 showed that wise team selection is crucial for Premiership success. We have a coach who has consistently allowed under performing seniors to retain their spots in the team and it has had a negative impact on the club.

If Malthouse displayed the same loyalty at the selection table, then Lockyer, Medhurst, Fraser and O'Bree would have been in the seniors in September and 2010 could have played out very differently.



Those five players aren't the only reasons why we were smashed, but they are senior players (4 of whom are in the leadership group) whose selection this week flies in the face of Eade's famous 'form and fitness' selection criteria. If Eade truly wanted to make a statement this week, then he would have dropped some of the guys who arrive at the ground knowing that they'll be getting a game next week no matter what. Who knows, maybe if he did it would make every other player on that list (and not just the ones Eade thinks are dispensable) a little hungrier because they will be fighting to keep their spot in the team.


You've attributed all sorts of crap to me that I never wrote. Next time have the courtesy to keep track of who wrote what instead of taking a stab and offering a lame apology if you were wrong. That's a shit act.

My contention is obvious enough. I don't believe that senior players who lose form should continue to be guaranteed selection regardless of their output. I think that it sets the wrong standard for the entire playing list. I think we have a coach who has made that mistake before and I hope he has learnt from that mistake because it is perhaps his largest shortcoming as a coach. The dumping of Grant, Stack and Gilbee did little to make me think he has. Hudson is a step in the right direction.

I don't think I was off the mark at all. Perhaps quote was the wrong word to use, but the terms stand and shockwaves as well as the reference to Malthouse and Collingwood are all attributable to you as shown above.

It was only the mediocrity reference that I was unsure about. However, if you want to point out anything else that you believe misrepresents your views I will retract it.

[LostDoggy]

I am pretty much sick of reading this sort of garbage about Eade and his favourite players that he won't drop.

Come on "The Rocket" tell us which players put their hands up in 2010 that warranted a game and didn't get a game?


Sorry Bornadog, I missed your 'challenge' first time round. I was only sneaking a quick look at work today and must have missed it.

In the spirit of the new WOOF tradition of reading your own posts from last year and declaring yourself right in hindsight, I took a quick look at my old WOOF posts to see what I was saying about our match committee last year. In hindsight, I was right!

It's actually a good exercise. I thought my frustration with Hahn occurred at around round eighteen last year but I was dismayed with his performance in June.

As to your question on who I would have given a game to if we had have dropped an under-performing senior player to make him earn his spot:

In May, I wanted to see Everett, Wood and Moles.

In June, it was still Everett and Wood plus Roughead and Jones.

In July, I wanted to see Hooper, Jones and Roughead and mentioned Markovic even though I had my doubts about his pace. I also thought that Tim Callan could do a job one week.

In September I was filthy that it had taken so long to play Hooper (they debuted him in a bloody semi final) and thought Jones should have been played as well.

I went to pretty much every Willy game at Burbank last year so I must have thought that those guys could offer something.

In 2010, Wood played 11, Roughead played 8 and Jones only played 5. All three would have been better served with more exposure to senior football last year.

Please understand that when I say we should drop an out of form senior player, it is so they can find form and come back to the seniors improved; it isn't an omission for life. Could our reserves have been able to accommodate the demotion for a couple of weeks of one of Eade's Untouchables when they no longer ticked the 'form and fitness' criteria that Eade himself set out?

Yeah, I think so.

[azabob]

In the spirit of the new WOOF tradition of reading your own posts from last year and declaring yourself right in hindsight, so.

Fair call, unsure why posters are feeling the need to do this.

[LostDoggy]

Well, just when it seems the dust has settled on the changes made to make a side for Hawthorn

Hargrave and Moles out injured

Lake back at Back Pocket , Gilbee on the bench

OK , who broke the rear view mirror ?

.

[LostDoggy]

Was Lake even an emergency?

[G-Mo77]

You've got to be kidding me! Lake in is a bonus but Gilbee deserves his spot in the VFL now he's back in?

What's Shaggy done?


Was Lake even an emergency?

Nope

[LostDoggy]

Nope

I do find that staggering.

[LostDoggy]

G-mo: Shaggy and Moles injured, not dropped.

[LostDoggy]

Was Lake even an emergency?

No, thrown straight from Williamstown into the BP

.

[G-Mo77]

G-mo: Shaggy and Moles injured, not dropped.

Yeah I'm aware of that. It's why I asked what has he done?

[LostDoggy]

Sorry my bad thought you meant what has done to get dropped. Assume it's ankle troubles again?

[G-Mo77]

Sorry my bad thought you meant what has done to get dropped. Assume it's ankle troubles again?

Which is what I'm concerned about. I'll hold off on a rant until I know more details but if it is a re-aggravated injury I'll be so disappointed in the Club.

[Pickenitup]

Moles done his shoulder at training on Tuesday will be out for 3- 4 weeks

[G-Mo77]

Moles done his shoulder at training on Tuesday will be out for 3- 4 weeks

Fell sorry for Moles. Played the Sub 3 weeks in a row and I could imagine he would have gotten a full game this week. Now he's out. It'll be a hard road back for him.

[AndrewP6]

Lake and Gilbee to play, according to this report

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/western-bulldogs-brian-lake-and-lindsay-gilbee-set-to-play-against-hawthorn/story-e6frf9jf-1226064589127

[G-Mo77]

Moles has an injured shoulder but apparently it's the flu according to that article. :rolleyes:

They will replace Ryan Hargrave (minor foot soreness) and Brodie Moles (flu).

Concerned about Shaggy though. :mad:

[LostDoggy]

SEN also reports as Moles having a flu

[bornadog]

Sorry Bornadog, I missed your 'challenge' first time round. I was only sneaking a quick look at work today and must have missed it.

In the spirit of the new WOOF tradition of reading your own posts from last year and declaring yourself right in hindsight, I took a quick look at my old WOOF posts to see what I was saying about our match committee last year. In hindsight, I was right!

It's actually a good exercise. I thought my frustration with Hahn occurred at around round eighteen last year but I was dismayed with his performance in June.

As to your question on who I would have given a game to if we had have dropped an under-performing senior player to make him earn his spot:

In May, I wanted to see Everett, Wood and Moles.

In June, it was still Everett and Wood plus Roughead and Jones.

In July, I wanted to see Hooper, Jones and Roughead and mentioned Markovic even though I had my doubts about his pace. I also thought that Tim Callan could do a job one week.

In September I was filthy that it had taken so long to play Hooper (they debuted him in a bloody semi final) and thought Jones should have been played as well.

I went to pretty much every Willy game at Burbank last year so I must have thought that those guys could offer something.

In 2010, Wood played 11, Roughead played 8 and Jones only played 5. All three would have been better served with more exposure to senior football last year.

Please understand that when I say we should drop an out of form senior player, it is so they can find form and come back to the seniors improved; it isn't an omission for life. Could our reserves have been able to accommodate the demotion for a couple of weeks of one of Eade's Untouchables when they no longer ticked the 'form and fitness' criteria that Eade himself set out?

Yeah, I think so.

Good Post, I like the way you backed it up.

However, when I look back in hindsight, I think all the players you listed probably played about the right amount of games for debut season. Maybe Hooper should have been tried a little earlier and from what I saw of Markovic, I thought he was lucky to ever make AFL grade.

Just before the finals, Eade challenged several young players, including Everrit and told them there was a spot in the finals if they can play well against Essendon, unfortunately they didn't perform. Everitt's attitude at training was woeful and we see this weekend he was dropped.

Some posters have said we should have played Jones instead of Hahn in the finals. Let me ask this, would you go into a final with a player that was barely getting 10 touches a game or go with a true and tried performer?

We can all be very critical of the MC but we don't seem to give credit where credit is due. In the past two years we have introduced over ten new players into the team. To me this is a rebuild or refresher for the whole team.

Some people criticize me for not bagging the coach, well the reason I don't bag the coach or MC often is I don't have insight into what happens at training or knowledge of the players injuries, conditions etc or knowledge of the instructions they are given in a game.

[Mofra]

Just before the finals, Eade challenged several young players, including Everrit and told them there was a spot in the finals if they can play well against Essendon, unfortunately they didn't perform. Everitt's attitude at training was woeful and we see this weekend he was dropped.

Some posters have said we should have played Jones instead of Hahn in the finals. Let me ask this, would you go into a final with a player that was barely getting 10 touches a game or go with a true and tried performer?
People tend to forget Jones "showed a bit" but was woeful against Essendon and not that much better the game before.
If he had performed, he would have played finals. Ditto Everitt, who I still don't rate as a footballer (jack of all trades, master of none).

I will agree that Wood could have gotten games earlier, and Hooper should have played a couple of season games - neither of them were likely to have taken Hahn's spot though.

[Topdog]

The development thing doesn't wash with me either in finals.

We were playing to win the league last year.

[w3design]

Does anyone else wonder if this was the plan all along ie bringing back lake? Surely Markovich was the logical late inclusion if a defender pulled out with injury? Has this been a ruse to deflect some of the fuss and fanfare that may have surrounded a Thursday announcement of Brian returning?

Maybe I'm dreaming up conspiracy theories but I wonder...:confused:

[bornadog]

Does anyone else wonder if this was the plan all along ie bringing back lake? Surely Markovich was the logical late inclusion if a defender pulled out with injury? Has this been a ruse to deflect some of the fuss and fanfare that may have surrounded a Thursday announcement of Brian returning?

Maybe I'm dreaming up conspiracy theories but I wonder...:confused:

Wouldn't be surprised at all, but hey, if you can somehow get one up on the opposition some how, why not. It only effects things like Dream Team so no harm done.

[G-Mo77]

Wouldn't be surprised at all, but hey, if you can somehow get one up on the opposition some how, why not. It only effects things like Dream Team so no harm done.

How did we get one up on them? There is plenty of notice for Hawthorn to prepare for the late inclusions. If anything it shows a weak desperation on our part if that is the ploy. If Lake was right to go then name him, how hard is that?

[bornadog]

How did we get one up on them? There is plenty of notice for Hawthorn to prepare for the late inclusions. If anything it shows a weak desperation on our part if that is the ploy. If Lake was right to go then name him, how hard is that?

They didn't need to name the final team until after training today.

[jazzadogs]

So what does that make the final changes?

In: Lake, Reid, Wallis, Howard, Hill, Hall
Out: Hudson, Hargrave, Moles, Stack, Grant, Markovic

Not overly happy to see Lake in, given most reports from posters seemed to suggest that he still wasn't 100% committed last week. Really hope he proves everyone wrong and gets back to his best. I miss seeing the ball kicked to a contest in our Def50 and not being worried, because I knew Brian would get there.

Only other concern is the Stack/Hill seesaw. Doesn't seem any real point to it.

Disappointed to see Hargrave out again, hopefully it's not for long. Injury management doesn't seem a strong suit down at the Dogs.

[Topdog]

So what does that make the final changes?

In: Lake, Reid, Wallis, Howard, Hill, Hall
Out: Hudson, Hargrave(inj), Moles(inj), Stack, Grant, Markovic


So besides injuries 3 kids got dropped and 1 experienced player.

[azabob]

So besides injuries 3 kids got dropped and 1 experienced player.

Yep, understand injuries but Im still disappointed Gilbee and Higgins are playing.

Gilbee has been in poor form bar one week for sometime and when was the last time Higgins saw out four solid quarters?

[JohnGentStand]

'So besides injuries 3 kids got dropped and 1 experienced player. '

is that glass half empty topdog?

didnt 3 kids come in...?

Stoked to see Lake in, we cant go anywhere this year without him.

[Scorlibo]

So besides injuries 3 kids got dropped and 1 experienced player.

4 poor performers were dropped. I cannot understand why everyone is so determined to drop the senior players.


Yep, understand injuries but Im still disappointed Gilbee and Higgins are playing.

Gilbee has been in poor form bar one week for sometime and when was the last time Higgins saw out four solid quarters?

Re: Higgins,

Round 1 vs Essendon, he was one of our best players among a fairly ordinary bunch.
Round 2 vs Brisbane, he was again one of our best with 23 touches and 3 goals.
Round 3 vs Gold Coast, one of our very best with 32 disposals and 1.4.
Round 5 vs Fremantle, quietish for three quarters before turning it on in the last quarter to nearly get us over the line - 25 touches and a goal.

So you'd reckon he's had 3 games where he's seen out four quarters, and four good games. Sounds good to me.

Re: Gilbee,

Round 3 vs Gold Coast, an admirable return from injury with 21 touches including good use of the footy and 2 goal assists.
Round 5 vs Fremantle, 19 touches, a goal and a solid game.
Round 6 vs Collingwood, a poor game, just 9 touches, but still some scoreboard impact with 1 goal and 2 assists.
Round 7 vs Sydney, a good game, 22 disposals and signs of a return of 2006 Gilbee.
Round 8 vs Richmond, a whopping 10 goals contributed through 6 goals and 4 assists as he adjusted to the role that was asked of him brilliantly.

Again, this strongly conflicts with your perception of poor form before the West Coast game. I suggest you and whoever else is relentless calling for Lindsay and Shaun's heads actually sit back for a moment and look at the facts.

[Doc26]

Re: Gilbee,

Round 3 vs Gold Coast, an admirable return from injury with 21 touches including good use of the footy and 2 goal assists.
Round 5 vs Fremantle, 19 touches, a goal and a solid game.
Round 6 vs Collingwood, a poor game, just 9 touches, but still some scoreboard impact with 1 goal and 2 assists.
Round 7 vs Sydney, a good game, 22 disposals and signs of a return of 2006 Gilbee.
Round 8 vs Richmond, a whopping 10 goals contributed through 6 goals and 4 assists as he adjusted to the role that was asked of him brilliantly.

Again, this strongly conflicts with your perception of poor form before the West Coast game. I suggest you and whoever else is relentless calling for Lindsay and Shaun's heads actually sit back for a moment and look at the facts.

Scorlibo, the MC obviously do not agree with you re Gilbee as it was they who took his head.
They dropped him with a stern message before Moles went down with the Flu.

[LostDoggy]

Don't understand the Moles move, not that he's not playing, just why list him in the first place.
The strong word in the week was that he injured his shoulder on Wednesday and was no chance to play.
Even now they say the flu?
I guess there is a chance i'm wrong about the shoulder and it really is the flu, but it doubt it.

[azabob]

I suggest you and whoever else is relentless calling for Lindsay and Shaun's heads actually sit back for a moment and look at the facts.

RE Higgins: I should have been more clear, I don't think he is match fit. He hasn't played a full game for 5 weeks. Should have been brought back via Williamstown.
Previous to this I thought he has been ok.

RE Gilbee: His for has been ok pre Richmond nothing fantastic regardless of his disposal numbers. Number of touches mean nothing.
DJ should have come in for Moles. We are very very slow in the midfield and now bringing back Gilbee into the mix doesn't exactly help that cause.

[Scorlibo]

Scorlibo, the MC obviously do not agree with you re Gilbee as it was they who took his head.
They dropped him with a stern message before Moles went down with the Flu.

I think the dropping of Gilbee was largely due to pressure on the MC to 'make a statement'. The supporters wanted blood. Knowing this, I can see why Gilbee was dropped over some other senior players, but I don't agree on the reactionary MC response. Unfortunately they have to pay attention to the public perception because it's what keeps our club afloat.


RE Higgins: I should have been more clear, I don't think he is match fit. He hasn't played a full game for 5 weeks. Should have been brought back via Williamstown.
Previous to this I thought he has been ok.

RE Gilbee: His for has been ok pre Richmond nothing fantastic regardless of his disposal numbers. Number of touches mean nothing.
DJ should have come in for Moles. We are very very slow in the midfield and now bringing back Gilbee into the mix doesn't exactly help that cause.

Higgins: for sure, I completely agree that he should have come back through Willi rather than travelling across the country to play on the biggest ground in the league after coming back from a 3 week injury.

Gilbee: touches do mean something, even if they don't mean everything, they are a good general indication of a player's output. It's easier to fix a player who gets a lot of the footy and doesn't execute correctly than a player who doesn't get near it. Knowing Gilbee, and knowing how well he can use the football, I would have thought the most definitive factor in his football would be how often he gets involved. Lindsay's not slow either, and I don't think Djerrkura is particularly quick. Half of being a quick mover is knowing where to run and running there decisively, something that gives players like Gilbee, Murphy and Cooney more time than guys like Hill, Djerrkura and Moles despite the latter group having a fair bit more raw speed than the former.

[Ghost Dog]

I think the dropping of Gilbee was largely due to pressure on the MC to 'make a statement'. The supporters wanted blood. Knowing this, I can see why Gilbee was dropped over some other senior players, but I don't agree on the reactionary MC response. Unfortunately they have to pay attention to the public perception because it's what keeps our club afloat.



Higgins: for sure, I completely agree that he should have come back through Willi rather than travelling across the country to play on the biggest ground in the league after coming back from a 3 week injury.

Gilbee: touches do mean something, even if they don't mean everything, they are a good general indication of a player's output. It's easier to fix a player who gets a lot of the footy and doesn't execute correctly than a player who doesn't get near it. Knowing Gilbee, and knowing how well he can use the football, I would have thought the most definitive factor in his football would be how often he gets involved. Lindsay's not slow either, and I don't think Djerrkura is particularly quick. Half of being a quick mover is knowing where to run and running there decisively, something that gives players like Gilbee, Murphy and Cooney more time than guys like Hill, Djerrkura and Moles despite the latter group having a fair bit more raw speed than the former.

how's Lindsay's kicking efficiency been this season, just out of interest?

[Remi Moses]

how's Lindsay's kicking efficiency been this season, just out of interest?

It's all about kicking efficiency these days.
Statistics like amount of disposals is all that dream team stuff

[LostDoggy]

According to Channel 10 tonight, Lake went to Eade and said play me.

Surely this isn't the case?

[Ghost Dog]

It's all about kicking efficiency these days.
Statistics like amount of disposals is all that dream team stuff

I wasn't taking a pot. Just intersted to know and too lazy to check. :D

[GVGjr]

According to Channel 10 tonight, Lake went to Eade and said play me.

Surely this isn't the case?

Why would you discount it? To me it sounds plausible.

[EasternWest]

Why would you discount it? To me it sounds plausible.

Agreed. And I like it.

To me the talk of Lake's poor body language of late has been a bit bemusing. IMO Lake always looks aloof and disinterested, it's just his demeanour. I'm wondering if it's just that his form's been down/body hasn't been right that people are noticing it more?

[Scorlibo]

how's Lindsay's kicking efficiency been this season, just out of interest?

According to kicking efficiency stats, he is our best kick, ranked number 17 in the competition:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/liam-jurrah-leads-top-100-kick-list/story-e6frf9jf-1226060435985

[LostDoggy]

Why would you discount it? To me it sounds plausible.

Just interesting to me.

Hopefully it's a case of Lake wanting to prove himself & stand up for the team, not a case of "I'm too good for Williamstown, play me Rocket".

[comrade]

Just interesting to me.

Hopefully it's a case of Lake wanting to prove himself & stand up for the team, not a case of "I'm too good for Williamstown, play me Rocket".

Considering Brian's attitude previously was "I don't want to play...anywhere", this change of heart/attitude is a big positive.

Now he has to go out there and back it up.

[Evel]

4 poor performers were dropped. I cannot understand why everyone is so determined to drop the senior players.



Re: Higgins,

Round 1 vs Essendon, he was one of our best players among a fairly ordinary bunch.
Round 2 vs Brisbane, he was again one of our best with 23 touches and 3 goals.
Round 3 vs Gold Coast, one of our very best with 32 disposals and 1.4.
Round 5 vs Fremantle, quietish for three quarters before turning it on in the last quarter to nearly get us over the line - 25 touches and a goal.

So you'd reckon he's had 3 games where he's seen out four quarters, and four good games. Sounds good to me.

Re: Gilbee,

Round 3 vs Gold Coast, an admirable return from injury with 21 touches including good use of the footy and 2 goal assists.
Round 5 vs Fremantle, 19 touches, a goal and a solid game.
Round 6 vs Collingwood, a poor game, just 9 touches, but still some scoreboard impact with 1 goal and 2 assists.
Round 7 vs Sydney, a good game, 22 disposals and signs of a return of 2006 Gilbee.
Round 8 vs Richmond, a whopping 10 goals contributed through 6 goals and 4 assists as he adjusted to the role that was asked of him brilliantly.

Again, this strongly conflicts with your perception of poor form before the West Coast game. I suggest you and whoever else is relentless calling for Lindsay and Shaun's heads actually sit back for a moment and look at the facts.

Can't speak for others, but I feel that the team needs to be refreshed and players like Gilbee (and other players too, but am sticking to the players named above) need to be replaced due to the fact that I don't think he's going to take us to that next level. He's been part of the core group for some years now and we've fallen short in the past 3 years. As your stats above say, playing well against GC and the Tigers is commendable, but he had poor games against Collingwood, West Coast (both challengers for top 4 this year) and I can't honestly recall seeing any signs against the Swans that made me think he was back to his old self. He may help us win a few games against lesser opposition, but we haven't seen any evidence that he's going to tear the top teams apart so at what stage does the club pull the trigger on him?? Would have preferred to see DJ given a crack. Has only played 1 and a bit games this year and his quarter and a bit against Brisbane was fairly decent in that he had an impact. Yes it was also against lesser opposition so let's see what he does against a potential top 4 contender. He's 2nd's form has been reasonable this year

Agree with you on Higgins. Provided he's fit, he shouldn't be dropped just yet.

[bornadog]

Can't speak for others, but I feel that the team needs to be refreshed and players like Gilbee (and other players too, but am sticking to the players named above) need to be replaced due to the fact that I don't think he's going to take us to that next level. He's been part of the core group for some years now and we've fallen short in the past 3 years. As your stats above say, playing well against GC and the Tigers is commendable, but he had poor games against Collingwood, West Coast (both challengers for top 4 this year) and I can't honestly recall seeing any signs against the Swans that made me think he was back to his old self. He may help us win a few games against lesser opposition, but we haven't seen any evidence that he's going to tear the top teams apart so at what stage does the club pull the trigger on him?? Would have preferred to see DJ given a crack. Has only played 1 and a bit games this year and his quarter and a bit against Brisbane was fairly decent in that he had an impact. Yes it was also against lesser opposition so let's see what he does against a potential top 4 contender. He's 2nd's form has been reasonable this year

Agree with you on Higgins. Provided he's fit, he shouldn't be dropped just yet.

Against Collingwood, Gilbee played as a defensive forward on O'Brien and beat him on the night, plus contributed to three goals.

[SonofScray]

Against Collingwood, Gilbee played as a defensive forward on O'Brien and beat him on the night, plus contributed to three goals.

He did have a couple of very good patches in that game, combined with the Richmond performance you can't say he is done and dusted. Form over the majority of this year and last year is no where near his best though. I can't see him being the weapon he once was.

[chef]

4 poor performers were dropped. I cannot understand why everyone is so determined to drop the senior players.

I guess because they aren't influencing games as they should.

[Bulldog Joe]

Against Collingwood, Gilbee played as a defensive forward on O'Brien and beat him on the night, plus contributed to three goals.

More than any other player he was responsible for the Dogs getting back on level terms.

Plus in the Sydney game he copped a heavy knock in the second quarter, that resulted in a MRP sanction on the Sydney player (although no free was paid, despite the Ump being right there)

[Hotdog60]

Could Gilbee stay as a permanent forward, leave him there and let him get used to the role.
If he can get enough of the ball he could become dangerous at either kicking for goal or passing to others.

Or is this another Gia and two in the forward line is too much.

[Rocco Jones]

Could Gilbee stay as a permanent forward, leave him there and let him get used to the role.
If he can get enough of the ball he could become dangerous at either kicking for goal or passing to others.

Or is this another Gia and two in the forward line is too much.

I think he struggles outside of the forward role so I am with you. Sadly, I also think your two too many concerns are also correct.

Our forward lines crap at the moment. I would love to see us give more defensive forward/hard working types a role there. For a long time I have wanted to see Picken there.

[Topdog]

4 poor performers were dropped. I cannot understand why everyone is so determined to drop the senior players.

.

Possibly because they are also poor performers. Just seems when we have a bad game it is always a kid that gets dropped. Even though others have played worse and played poorly for a longer time.

[Topdog]

According to kicking efficiency stats, he is our best kick, ranked number 17 in the competition:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/liam-jurrah-leads-top-100-kick-list/story-e6frf9jf-1226060435985

That isn't kicking efficiency, it's the Hit Rate which incorporates degree of difficulty and other such nonsense.

[Happy Days]

Our forward lines crap at the moment. I would love to see us give more defensive forward/hard working types a role there. For a long time I have wanted to see Picken there.

With the way Dahlhaus and DJ played yesterday, this should be an easy fix.

[Mantis]

Could Gilbee stay as a permanent forward, leave him there and let him get used to the role.
If he can get enough of the ball he could become dangerous at either kicking for goal or passing to others.

Or is this another Gia and two in the forward line is too much.

Add in Higgins and we have 3 small forwards who while having good footy skills aren't known for their defensive attributes which is an area in which we are lacking.