Bulldogs Drop 5 Players from Last weeks Debacle

[bornadog]

I think thats making a statement.

OUT: Gilbee, Grant, Stack, Hudson and Markovic

Anyone else, posters think should have been dropped??

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Why are you so defensive when it comes to the club? They might be professionals, but like anyone else, they make mistakes. And we've made plenty.

I don't see why you felt the need to make a separate thread, as though you are 'proving' the club makes statements. This - arguably - is the first one we've made in years, and it's not as though we had a choice. We lost to a side that finished 16th last year by 120 odd points.

In reference to the question, I am surprised Markovic was dropped. He seemed a decent option for Roughead/second ruck. How we tackle this will be interesting - but in saying that, I am pleased we are trying something different.

They're good changes. I hope we maintain this mentality.

[GVGjr]

I think thats making a statement.

OUT: Gilbee, Grant, Stack, Hudson and Markovic

Anyone else, posters think should have been dropped??

Agreed, it is a strong statement.

[azabob]

I think thats making a statement.

OUT: Gilbee, Grant, Stack, Hudson and Markovic

Anyone else, posters think should have been dropped??

Higgins is lucky
Markovic unlucky

[Dazza]

Has Markovic even been dropped?

[JohnGentStand]

not in the last 10 years..

[bornadog]

Why are you so defensive when it comes to the club? .

I am not being defensive at all. I am just putting up discussion.

[SonofScray]

Higgins lucky, very lucky.

Markovic got toweled up, but I don't see his being dropped as part of any statement.

[Rocco Jones]

Higgins lucky, very lucky.

Markovic got toweled up, but I don't see his being dropped as part of any statement.

I don't think it was meant to be. Making a statement isn't a prerequisite for dropping someone.

Hudson, Gilbee and Grant are making a statement type outs.

Stack and Markovic are your more traditional, they are crap type outs.

I agree with you on Higgins, add Gia to that list as well but I agree with them being kept in. It's a hard one. The worst thing you can do for a kids development is never play them. The second worst thing you can do is play them in a team full of kids.

That being said, it's not like the senior guys show much leadership (especially 99 guys), so my commitment to the ''can't play too many kids'' line isn't strong. Another crap outing from Gia and Higgins in a loss and they should be gone IMO.

[w3design]

Being relatively bold this year doesn't negate the argument that over the course of his career Rocket has been conservative. Hahn, Ego and Jono were all picked unfit and/or ineffective last year. This year I think Rodney has been more adventurous. Having said that, the balance between stability and bringing in new blood must be difficult. I think we've seen that with lots of chopping and changing, the team has had trouble gelling and lack of familiarity with game style and instinctive knowledge of roles and responsibilities. That probably cost us the game v Freo..inability to hold the lead, steady the ship etc.

I do think Higgins continued inclusion is hard to fathom. In very average form before his injury, then straight back in v WC, and did nothing to justify this faith. This is the main selection that's puzzling to say the least. Prove us wrong, Shaun.

[SonofScray]

I don't think it was meant to be. Making a statement isn't a prerequisite for dropping someone.

Hudson, Gilbee and Grant are making a statement type outs.

Stack and Markovic are your more traditional, they are crap type outs.

I agree with you on Higgins, add Gia to that list as well but I agree with them being kept in. It's a hard one. The worst thing you can do for a kids development is never play them. The second worst thing you can do is play them in a team full of kids.

That being said, it's not like the senior guys show much leadership (especially 99 guys), so my commitment to the ''can't play too many kids'' line isn't strong. Another crap outing from Gia and Higgins in a loss and they should be gone IMO.

Yep. A very fair assessment IMO.

I'd like to see us take a bit of a risk in terms of throwing kids to the wolves FWIW.

[Ghost Dog]

Stack and Markovic are your more traditional, they are crap type outs.

.

Crap or out of form?

You don't feel Markovic has lived up to expectations?

[Before I Die]

I know it is a little hard to read, but have a look at the stats below. They have been arranged by Dream Team score but the order is alsmost identical, at least in the bottom half, if you use kicks.

Brodie Moles had limited game time. Bob Murphy, Shaun Higgins and Tom Williams may consider themselves lucky, the the other demotions seem pretty fair.

Posters who keep referring to Eade's favourites should try taking an honesty pill and start referring to those same players as their own personal un-favourites.

I am not advocating DT points as a selection method, but it is undeniable that the players dropped were poor contributors last week and from the actions of the MC it is clear that their poor stats were not the result of a designated team role.

Criticism of last year's team selection is just rubbish, the players selected got us to a Preliminary Final and at the end we were decimated by injuries. This year we are struggling and the MC is playing a lot of new players. Yet the criticsm continues. Does anyone really believe that the Williamstown seniors are a better team than the Bulldogs team that ran out last week?

I am disappointed with our season so far, but I can see clear evidence that Eade and the MC are being extremely pro-active in trying to address the form slump. I think a major game plan change is also necessary, however, that wasn't obvious at the end of last year and it probably can't be truly addressed until the end of this year.

Player Name K H D M HO T FF FA G B DT
1 Liam Picken 13 13 26 3 0 9 1 2 0 0 105
2 Matthew Boyd 15 17 32 2 0 5 0 1 0 0 102
3 Daniel Cross 11 14 25 6 1 6 1 1 0 0 102
4 Ryan Griffen 17 10 27 4 0 4 1 0 0 0 100
5 Thomas Liberatore 5 18 23 1 0 4 0 1 1 0 73
6 Justin Sherman 8 13 21 3 0 3 2 2 1 0 73
7 Daniel Giansiracusa 11 6 17 7 0 1 1 2 1 0 71
8 Dale Morris 8 7 15 4 0 4 4 0 0 0 70
9 Liam Jones 7 2 9 6 1 2 0 0 2 0 64
10 Ryan Hargrave 9 9 18 3 0 3 0 1 0 0 63
11 William Minson 5 6 11 4 11 3 0 1 0 0 59
12 Callan Ward 3 10 13 0 0 6 1 2 0 0 48
13 Easton Wood 7 6 13 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 48
14 Ben Hudson 2 13 15 1 19 2 3 6 0 0 47
15 Brennan Stack 3 7 10 0 0 3 1 0 1 1 43
16 Robert Murphy 5 3 8 3 0 3 0 2 1 0 42
17 Lindsay Gilbee 4 4 8 1 0 4 0 1 0 0 36
18 Lukas Markovic 4 3 7 1 0 2 2 0 0 0 31
19 Shaun Higgins 3 3 6 0 0 4 0 1 0 1 29
20 Tom L. Williams 4 3 7 1 0 2 0 0 0 0 29
21 Jarrad Grant 1 4 5 1 0 2 0 0 1 0 28
22 Brodie Moles 1 6 7 1 0 2 0 1 0 1 24

[Rocco Jones]

Yep. A very fair assessment IMO.

I'd like to see us take a bit of a risk in terms of throwing kids to the wolves FWIW.

Cheers.

Look, I don't like taking that risk but leadership doesn't just come with age.

There are 3 main benefits I see in playing senior guys who aren't great when you're struggling and need to develop.

1- On field leadership
2- Physically protect younger guys, either directly by flying the flag etc or indirectly by taking more physical/mature bodied type roles
3- Helping the team to be competitive. No matter what level, taking a flogging is awful for morale and it obviously have an adverse affect on player development.

Senior guys who I view as lucky to survive are Gia and Gia Jnr. IMO they do not demonstrate much of 1 and 2 but do help out a bit with the point 3. There lack of on field presence really gives them a very small margin for error if the season keeps on going south.

We obviously also have the option of replacing our senior players with seniors who have been dropped. Make them battle it out with each other for the 'you're just there to make us a bit more competitive' spots. This is all assuming our season keeps on sucking of course.

[Rocco Jones]

Crap or out of form?

You don't feel Markovic has lived up to expectations?

Crap is harsh, I shouldn't/don't want to use that with Markovic. I actually thought he was in relatively good form but of course that's relative to his talent base.

He has exceeded my expectations but they were very low.

I hate having a go at a guy who will go to war for the club, so I will leave it at that.

[ratsmac]

I am quite surprised by the Markovic dropping. I guess they think Morris is more than capable of holding down Roughead, and Williams is a better match for Buddy, which then it leaves them with a match up problem. Yes you would think of Hawthorn as a tall forward line, but it's Roughy and Buddy with the height, but Rioli, Burgoyne, Bateman and Osborne are all small forwards. So Markovic could just be a match up issue rather than plane ol' dropped.

On paper I think we look OK, it whether we can play with any intensity for four quarters is the million dollar question!

Dropping Higgins maybe was another, but with only his first game back last week after three weeks out wouldn't prove much IMO.

I'm glad Grant got the lemon and Sars, hopefully Germo puts a cracker up his arse and we see that form from last year that got us thinking that we might have a player here!

Wasn't Reid's one and only game last year against the Hawks where he injured his shoulders? I'm rapt Reids in though, I think he'll add some aggression that we have been looking for. I think he has some quick hands too.

As for Huddo, we could see it coming, hopefully he can find another gear and come back with a fire in his belly. I thought the hawks style of play would've suited Huddo though. But the axe had to fall.

[chef]

I think thats making a statement.

OUT: Gilbee, Grant, Stack, Hudson and Markovic

Anyone else, posters think should have been dropped??

Who are the ins?

[GVGjr]

We are certainly backing going into the game with a very short line-up.

[bornadog]

Who are the ins?

Hall, Howard, Hill, Reid, Wallis,

[azabob]

We are certainly backing going into the game with a very short line-up.

Which would be an advantage if the game was at the MCG, rather than docklands.

It is a short line up but not a very quick one.

It appears the team has been selected for a ground where the weather could impact.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I suspect we've decided to go with players who will give us effort (Reid, Wallis) and after last week, that's fair enough, even if we are too short.

Higgins, Gia and Cross should need to have good games. Hudson/Gilbee/Grant are a good start, but I really hope Gia/Cross are looked at closely. Moreso Cross, who I feel offers us little in today's game.

I'm quite interested to see how we play this week.

[Desipura]

I think thats making a statement.

OUT: Gilbee, Grant, Stack, Hudson and Markovic

Anyone else, posters think should have been dropped??

I agree, this is making a statement, long overdue mind you

[LostDoggy]

So we need to make a statement (drop 5 players) every week even if we win.

[GVGjr]

So we need to make a statement (drop 5 players) every week even if we win.

Not sure I see the point with what you are saying. We were on the business end of a massive beating last week and we just can't afford to ride through without making some changes.
Out of the all the guys omitted Markovic is probably the player that would have been the most unlucky.

[Greystache]

Not sure I see the point with what you are saying. We were on the business end of a massive beating last week and we just can't afford to ride through without making some changes.
Out of the all the guys omitted Markovic is probably the player that would have been the most unlucky.

Agree with you G, especially when you consider Markovic's output last week and across the season compared to Higgins who kept his spot.

[GVGjr]

Agree with you G, especially when you consider Markovic's output last week and across the season compared to Higgins who kept his spot.

It wouldn't surprise me to see him play on Sunday and perhaps even be used in the ruck.

[bornadog]

It wouldn't surprise me to see him play on Sunday and perhaps even be used in the ruck.

Otherwise what will they do for rucks? Jones?

[Scorlibo]

Agree with you G, especially when you consider Markovic's output last week and across the season compared to Higgins who kept his spot.

So sick of everyone potting Higgins on one poor game back from injury. He was in good form before he got injured, despite popular perception indicating he's had a shocker of a season. I also think that most posters are looking for excuses to take aim at Gia and Cross, who, Cross in particular, have been among our best this season. There is way too much love for the untalented goers among our supporters, by this I mean Picken, Markovic, Reid, Hooper etc. Who have earnt some old and outdated sense of respect by achieving despite their deficiencies. 'At least we know he'll give 100%!' is what we hear each week about these types of players, the reality is that it's not about the effort they put in, at the end of the day it's about results, and how Markovic can be considered hard done by after continually putting in average to poor performances astounds me. I also find it absurd how Callan Ward can not even get a mention at the woof community selection table, despite him playing just as poorly as Gilbee and Higgins and much worse than Gia and Cross. Don't get me wrong, I love Cal, I have his number on the back of my guernsey, but at some point you have to lose the pretty boy vs hard nut mentality and judge every player fairly.

[Greystache]

It wouldn't surprise me to see him play on Sunday and perhaps even be used in the ruck.

I've seen him ruck a couple of times for Willi, he reminded me so much of Wayde Skipper, but I haven't gotten to as many games the past 2 years as I would've liked, how do you think he'd go?

[Desipura]

Not sure I see the point with what you are saying. We were on the business end of a massive beating last week and we just can't afford to ride through without making some changes.
Out of the all the guys omitted Markovic is probably the player that would have been the most unlucky.

I don't see the point in a lot of what Chops posts. You have done what I could not be bothered doing, respond to that tripe!

[Greystache]

Not sure if this is serious or a wind up?


So sick of everyone potting Higgins on one poor game back from injury. He was in good form before he got injured, despite popular perception indicating he's had a shocker of a season.

One game? Give people some credit, he's had a bad 12 months. The reality is his output over his career to date has been pretty average, but as supporters and a club we're seduced by what he might do. The fact he's in the leadership group is a testament to this.


I also think that most posters are looking for excuses to take aim at Gia and Cross, who, Cross in particular, have been among our best this season. There is way too much love for the untalented goers among our supporters, by this I mean Picken, Markovic, Reid, Hooper etc. Who have earnt some old and outdated sense of respect by achieving despite their deficiencies. 'At least we know he'll give 100%!' is what we hear each week about these types of players

These types? You mean like Cross? The very definition of the "at least we know he'll give 100%" player. Pick a side of the argument.


the reality is that it's not about the effort they put in, at the end of the day it's about results, and how Markovic can be considered hard done by after continually putting in average to poor performances astounds me. I also find it absurd how Callan Ward can not even get a mention at the woof community selection table, despite him playing just as poorly as Gilbee and Higgins and much worse than Gia and Cross. Don't get me wrong, I love Cal, I have his number on the back of my guernsey, but at some point you have to lose the pretty boy vs hard nut mentality and judge every player fairly.

I watched Markovic at Will all last year and couldn't see an AFL player, but if we're looking at performances this year and in particular last week, he is a long way in front of Tom Williams, who not only has kept his spot but looks as if he's been selected as the sole option for Buddy Franklin.

Callan Ward was almost unanimously voted BOG the week before, are you suggesting one bad game and he should be dropped?

I assume this was a wind up and I've taken the but, but eh.

[GVGjr]

I've seen him ruck a couple of times for Willi, he reminded me so much of Wayde Skipper, but I haven't gotten to as many games the past 2 years as I would've liked, how do you think he'd go?

The Skipper comparison is a good one but he doesn't have his leap. For a 5 minute break each quarter I think he would go OK.
If he is added back into the team he would obviously provide some coverage for Roughead

[LostDoggy]

I don't see the point in a lot of what Chops posts. You have done what I could not be bothered doing, respond to that tripe!

Excuse me desi, sorry I went over your head. It was meant for you too.
I'm also a bit confused you say your not responding to that post but you mention my name?

You've been waiting long for the club to make a 'statement' at the selection table it sounds like you wanted that more a win each week.

[GVGjr]

I also find it absurd how Callan Ward can not even get a mention at the woof community selection table, despite him playing just as poorly as Gilbee and Higgins and much worse than Gia and Cross. Don't get me wrong, I love Cal, I have his number on the back of my guernsey, but at some point you have to lose the pretty boy vs hard nut mentality and judge every player fairly.

I think it was acknowledged that Ward had a poor game last week. He's shown what he is capable of though, which is very good, and we need to see that more consistently.

[GVGjr]

You've been waiting long for the club to make a 'statement' at the selection table it sounds like you wanted that more a win each week.

Thanks, now I get it. I'm sure it's a natural reaction for some people to want the players to cop the heat for a bad loss.

Hudson was struggling as was Gilbee, except for his 6 goal performance, and Grant seems to be down on effort so it made sense to drop the guys.
To me, the question is more about if we would have made the same sort of statement if we had have only lost by 23 points last week?

[GVGjr]

Otherwise what will they do for rucks? Jones?

Not suited to it.

[Desipura]

Thanks, now I get it. I'm sure it's a natural reaction for some people to want the players to cop the heat for a bad loss.

Hudson was struggling as was Gilbee, except for his 6 goal performance, and Grant seems to be down on effort so it made sense to drop the guys.
To me, the question is more about if we would have made the same sort of statement if we had have only lost by 23 points last week?

Agree Gary, I think we have been reluctant to drop a player when we could have set a benchmark to say, I know we are going ok, however you are not performing to your capabilities, rather than hoping they recapture form in the firsts.

To lose by 123 points with senior players in the side like the abovementioned is a worry for them individually as well as the coach, who may have lost the players faith in him.

Grant had a good season last year that died off towards the end of the season, why is he suddenly an automatic selection?
He has been pretty average this season yet it took the MC to round 10 to drop him

[ledge]

Markovic unlucky, I dont think DT or SC do any favours for backmen, they dont score for punching the ball away, which of course is a major weapon in defence and winning a game in my opinion.

[azabob]

Markovic unlucky, I dont think DT or SC do any favours for backmen, they dont score for punching the ball away, which of course is a major weapon in defence and winning a game in my opinion.

Surely the match committee don't look at these useless indicators

[Desipura]

Markovic unlucky, I dont think DT or SC do any favours for backmen, they dont score for punching the ball away, which of course is a major weapon in defence and winning a game in my opinion.

Legde, what's DT got to do with this topic?

[ledge]

Someone posted the DT points up as an example, and I am sure the match committee dont but the public do as example shows.

[Topdog]

mate just sent me a text saying Lake and Gilbee in for Hargrave and Morris. True?

[Rocco Jones]

mate just sent me a text saying Lake and Gilbee in for Hargrave and Morris. True?

Moles out rather than Morris.

[LostDoggy]

Out : Stack , Hudson, Grant, Markovic , Hargrave ( injured ) , Moles ( injured )

So seven in , six out according to the current team sheet

.

[Rocco Jones]

Out : Stack , Hudson, Grant, Markovic , Hargrave ( injured ) , Moles ( injured )

So seven in , six out according to the current team sheet

.

I think it's confused by Gilbee's out and in action.

[Topdog]

no idea how I wrote Morris, he said Moles....

[azabob]

To me it has now become quite apparent that Gilbee was never going to be dropped. To me no statement has been made.

[Doc26]

To me it has now become quite apparent that Gilbee was never going to be dropped. To me no statement has been made.

To me it seems more apparent that Lake was always going to play as to this point I was having a lot of trouble trying to understand how Williams as the lone tall down back was going to cover the Hawk's talls. The proposition gave me nightmares last night.

Heres's hoping the biggest statement can be made from 4:40 tomorrow and onwards as surely now the blowtorch and focus is on.

[GVGjr]

To me it has now become quite apparent that Gilbee was never going to be dropped. To me no statement has been made.

I'm not sure I agree. Time will tell I suppose.

[Grantysghost]

Western Bulldogs


B: Liam Picken, Tom L. Williams, Brian Lake

HB: Robert Murphy, Dale Morris, Easton Wood

C: Daniel Cross, Matthew Boyd, Christian Howard

HF: Ryan Griffen, Liam Jones, Mitchell Wallis

F: Shaun Higgins, Barry Hall, Daniel Giansiracusa

Foll: William Minson, Thomas Liberatore, Callan Ward

I/C: Lindsay Gilbee, Josh Hill, Sam Reid, Justin Sherman

Emg: Ben Hudson, Lukas Markovic, Nathan Djerrkura


In: Brian Lake, Josh Hill, Sam Reid, Barry Hall, Christian Howard, Mitchell Wallis

Out: Ryan Hargrave (Injured), Brennan Stack, Ben Hudson, Jarrad Grant, Lukas Markovic, Brodie Moles (Injured)

New: Christian Howard (Sacred Heart College/Glenelg (SA))

[G-Mo77]

To me it seems more apparent that Lake was always going to play as to this point I was having a lot of trouble trying to understand how Williams as the lone tall down back was going to cover the Hawk's talls.

Seems that way doesn't it.

It was mentioned in here Moles was injured and was selected anyway. I don't see the point in playing these games.

[Grantysghost]

Seems Markovic out for Lake then which is a shame as he has been doing well. I guess it was inevitable. Williams hopefully will repay the faith and keep buddy on the leash.

[G-Mo77]

Seems Markovic out for Lake then which is a shame as he has been doing well. I guess it was inevitable. Williams hopefully will repay the faith and keep buddy on the leash.

I think Williams will be pinch hitting in the ruck more than defending anyone.

[Grantysghost]

I think Williams will be pinch hitting in the ruck more than defending anyone.

Lake on Fraklin worries me considering who he has been toweled up by this year eg Leigh Brown. Can anyone else pinch hit in the ruck? If only Cooney was there he beat Cox a couple of years ago :)

[bornadog]

I think Hargrave has a virus, so not injured as such.

[G-Mo77]

Lake on Fraklin worries me considering who he has been toweled up by this year eg Leigh Brown. Can anyone else pinch hit in the ruck? If only Cooney was there he beat Cox a couple of years ago :)

Williams on Franklin worries me even more.

Jones may help out in the ruck.

[Desipura]

I think Hargrave has a virus, so not injured as such.

Unless this is confirmed, this is a real worry for him

[bornadog]

I think Hargrave has a virus, so not injured as such.


Unless this is confirmed, this is a real worry for him

Sorry, Moles listed as Flu, Hargrave has foot soreness, which is not good.

HUN (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/western-bulldogs-brian-lake-and-lindsay-gilbee-set-to-play-against-hawthorn/story-e6frf9jf-1226064589127)

OUT-of-favour Western Bulldogs Brian Lake and Lindsay Gilbee will be shock inclusions for tomorrow’s crunch match against Hawthorn at Etihad Stadium.

Western Bulldogs coach Rodney Eade this morning confirmed the pair would play after being named in the club’s VFL side Williamstown on Thursday night.

They will replace Ryan Hargrave (minor foot soreness) and Brodie Moles (flu).

Dual All-Australian Lake has been languishing in the VFL for almost a month after injury and fitness issues.

He impressed the Bulldogs with his training this week and looms as one of main candidates to take on Hawthorn’s superstar forward Lance Franklin.

Gilbee, a veteran of almost 200 games, was dropped on Thursday but won a reprieve late yesterday when his teammates’ injury concerns became apparent.

[G-Mo77]

Moles has injured his shoulder, it's been confirmed by a few in here.

[Doc26]

Lake's inclusion has me baffled. Surely he's either right to be selected in the first instance or he's not. Personally he didn't look right to me at Willy last week. Why if Hargraves had a late injury was Markovic, as nominated emergency, not brought in as his replacement ?

Has Brian got on his knees and begged for foregivenss at the eleventh hour ?

Why, as emergency, wasn't Djerrkura brought in for a flu infected Moles ?

What messages or statements are these decisions making other than throwing up bewilderment and confusion.

These are strange calls by an MC looking rattled in a pressure cooker.

[LostDoggy]

We had Lake named OUT right? not an emerg or extended bench? Are we gunna cop a fine for that...and if so, why go about his inclusion that way?

[bornadog]

We had Lake named OUT right? not an emerg or extended bench? Are we gunna cop a fine for that...and if so, why go about his inclusion that way?

Because we play Sunday we had to name the final team today. We had open training this morning and finalized after that.

[Mofra]

Hopefully Gilbee realises he's rated 25-26th on our list on current form and needs to lift to hold his place in the side. No doubt that a fit Shaggy would take his spot, and if Howard is even adequate he will overtake him too.

Given Hudson's standing within the group I still think the MC have made a "statement" of sorts - in reality, they've dropped a few underperfromers and taken a real punt on Lake being good enough which they should do anyway after that sort of loss.
Given all that's been said about Brian in the last month, perhaps appealling to his ego is the best way to manage him at this point.

[Scorlibo]

Not sure if this is serious or a wind up?

Why would it be a wind up? Or are you just trying to discredit me by suggesting so?


One game? Give people some credit, he's had a bad 12 months. The reality is his output over his career to date has been pretty average, but as supporters and a club we're seduced by what he might do. The fact he's in the leadership group is a testament to this.

His biggest issue remains his propensity to get injured, aside from that, when he has played over the last 12 months he's been far from bad, suffering only from the expectations surrounding him.

You want to talk about output?? That's exactly the point I'm making, his output is consistently better than most of the team, yet he cops criticism because we expect such great things from him.

Over his career he has averaged:

17.3 disposals, 1.2 goals, 2.5 tackles from 74 games.

And this isn't even accounting for the 10 odd games where he's only played part of the game through injury.

To put this in perspective, here are Griff's career averages:

19.5 disposals, 0.6 goals, 3.1 tackles from 129 games.

So despite playing over two and a half more seasons worth of games than Higgins, Griff, our best and fairest winner, has averaged just 2.2 more disposals and half the goals that Higgins has. Again, this doesn't even account for the number of games Higgins has been restricted by injury.

So yes, we're seduced by what he might do, but set very high standards of what this may be. The reality is that despite not meeting those standards, he has been a very good contributor in his career to date and instead of comparing him to his potential, we should compare him to the rest of the team.


These types? You mean like Cross? The very definition of the "at least we know he'll give 100%" player. Pick a side of the argument.

Cross would fall into that category if he didn't actually out perform the majority of the team. I'm talking about the guys who don't give the team much, but are hailed because of where they've come from/how hard they've had to work to get where they are. They are almost the opposite to Higgins, everyone sets low expectations for the player, and then judge them on whether they exceed these expectations, instead on whether they out perform others on the team.


I watched Markovic at Will all last year and couldn't see an AFL player, but if we're looking at performances this year and in particular last week, he is a long way in front of Tom Williams, who not only has kept his spot but looks as if he's been selected as the sole option for Buddy Franklin.

I completely disagree, I think a fit and settled Williams is athletically superior to Markovic, a much better kick, and a much more comfortable CHB, where Markovic is essentially a FB and not much more. Everyone struggled on Kennedy last week with the amount of ball that was heading his way, so to judge Williams on last week's performance is to accept a position of ignorance.


Callan Ward was almost unanimously voted BOG the week before, are you suggesting one bad game and he should be dropped?

No, not at all, he definitely shouldn't be dropped, my comments regarding Ward surfaced as a result of the constant criticism of Gilbee and Higgins, who have had similarly good form in their previous games, Gilbee especially having come off a 6 goal performance against Richmond in which he was judged second best on behind only Ward. You can mount the same argument for each of these players, who played terribly, but nonetheless deserve their spot on previous form.


I think it was acknowledged that Ward had a poor game last week. He's shown what he is capable of though, which is very good, and we need to see that more consistently.

This is true, and the same can be said of Higgins and Gilbee. I disagree that his poor game has been acknowledged though, I think he has escaped a lot of the focus in addition to a few others, with the heat centred upon guys like Higgins, Gilbee and Gia, somewhat unfairly.

[Mofra]

You want to talk about output?? That's exactly the point I'm making, his output is consistently better than most of the team, yet he cops criticism because we expect such great things from him.
You could say that about alot of players - some people seem to have their scapegoats, and will rely on the old "I expect more of them than others" when challenged.

Other players are (inexplicably) untouchable - Barry Hall comes to mind.

[bresker]

Unfortunately, I feel that these last minute team changes are a sign that the club doesn't know it's rear end from it's elbow & things are rapidly disappearing down the gurgler.

Unprofessional nonsense, no matter what.

[comrade]

Unprofessional nonsense, no matter what.

How so? Are you in a position to know the inner machinations of our football department? If not, why don't you step back and refrain from potting the Club over an issue you know nothing about.

I'm sick of the anti-Bulldogs vibe that has permeated the forum over the last few weeks. Of course we should all be bitterly disappointed by a 123 point loss but the level of anger and vitriol has been excessive.

I fear it's only going to get worse, too.

[Rocco Jones]

How so? Are you in a position to know the inner machinations of our football department? If not, why don't you step back and refrain from potting the Club over an issue you know nothing about.


I hate mindless negativity but I am also sick of 'you are not inside the club, how do you know?' line. Using that line you can defend anything Eade and the MC does.

Once again, absolutely hate the uber negativity and I really believe we are the new Richmond, with the most cynical fans in the AFL but there is a group of posters here who seem so close to Eade that they are coming across as sycophants at times.

[Topdog]

Well said Rocco. It's my most hated line.

[aker39]

I hate mindless negativity but I am also sick of 'you are not inside the club, how do you know?' line. Using that line you can defend anything Eade and the MC does.

Once again, absolutely hate the uber negativity and I really believe we are the new Richmond, with the most cynical fans in the AFL but there is a group of posters here who seem so close to Eade that they are coming across as sycophants at times.

Comrade made no mention of Eade or him having any inside info, just that Breskers comments were bullshit, unless of course he knew something more than the rest of us.

Pretty simple really, Breskers comments are crap, you don't have to be an insider to know that.

[Greystache]

Well said Rocco. It's my most hated line.

Agreed, that and "these guys are full time professionals, I think they know better than you". With that line of thinking we may as well have only one thread each week, "the club knows best so don't argue".

Although some posters might find it difficult to get their argument fix.

[Topdog]

Comrade made no mention of Eade or him having any inside info, just that Breskers comments were bullshit, unless of course he knew something more than the rest of us.

Pretty simple really, Breskers comments are crap, you don't have to be an insider to know that.

So why did he say


Are you in a position to know the inner machinations of our football department? If not, why don't you step back and refrain from potting the Club over an issue you know nothing about.

If he thinks breskers comments were crap, just tell him why. Saying you aren't privy to the inner mechanisms of the football department just sounds silly IMO.

We have all heard that Moles has been injured since Tuesday. Therefore it is a great surprise to see that he was listed and the turnaround does seem like nonsense.

[Topdog]

Agreed, that and "these guys are full time professionals, I think they know better than you". With that line of thinking we may as well have only one thread each week, "the club knows best so don't argue".


Haha can also get rid of elections. The prime minister is a full time professional why should us plebs be able to vote her out?

[comrade]

I hate mindless negativity but I am also sick of 'you are not inside the club, how do you know?' line. Using that line you can defend anything Eade and the MC does.

Once again, absolutely hate the uber negativity and I really believe we are the new Richmond, with the most cynical fans in the AFL but there is a group of posters here who seem so close to Eade that they are coming across as sycophants at times.

Rocco, you have taken my line completely out of context and by saying "I hate uber-negativity", you've completely contradicted yourself (by quoting my post which was all about uber-negativity). I don't defend the Club 100% of the time and I certainly don't use the "you're not an insider, so don't have an opinion" line of attach so don't tar me with that brush. What I will do is make someone accountable for a ridiculous comment, negative or positive.

I'm as disappointed as anyone with our performance last week (and this year in general) and I believe we've made some missteps over the last few years which are hurting us now BUT...

We're all here because we love the Western Bulldogs. Some of the crap that has been spouted in the last week has been ridiculous. Quoting posts from 2 or 3 years ago to prove a point about being right all along, some putting conditions on their memberships if certain personnel don't change. Whenever someone has the gall to actually be positive and defend the Club, they have been shot down in flames. Bornadog must have scorch marks on his arse :)

And it's not just 1 or 2 posters. There has been a distinctly vitriolic atmosphere (if an online forum can have atmosphere) develop over the past couple of weeks. I realise that some of it is just posturising by keyboard warriors, but I log into WOOF to have rational, civilised discussion about the Club I love. Not bleating about how we're unprofessional because we made some late changes.

If bresker had have justified his comment about the Club being unprofessional with some actual insight, I would have no issue. But this irrational negativity on a PRO-Bulldogs forum sucks and I won't just cop it.

[LostDoggy]

I hate mindless negativity but I am also sick of 'you are not inside the club, how do you know?' line. Using that line you can defend anything Eade and the MC does.

Maybe if he said that it would be besides it's no where near as bad as 'accepting mediocrity' or 'demand success' ones.

[comrade]

If he thinks breskers comments were crap, just tell him why. Saying you aren't privy to the inner mechanisms of the football department just sounds silly IMO.

We have all heard that Moles has been injured since Tuesday. Therefore it is a great surprise to see that he was listed and the turnaround does seem like nonsense.

I didn't say he wasn't privy to the inner workings of the football department. I asked him if he was, as he could then justify his negativity with some actual insight rather than mindlessly calling the Club unprofessional.

Big difference

[Mofra]

I'm not sure it matters comrade. Making any sort of defence of the club, in any aspect, is for some reason frowned upon on WOOF - even if it is made within the bounds of a post that contains criticisms as well.

[comrade]

I'm not sure it matters comrade. Making any sort of defence of the club, in any aspect, is for some reason frowned upon on WOOF - even if it is made within the bounds of a post that contains criticisms as well.

Apparently, we're stuck in a vortex where you can't say anything positive 'because you're a mediocrity accepting sycophant' and you can't say anything negative 'because you're not an insider' :D

[Dogs 24/7]

I'm sick of the anti-Bulldogs vibe that has permeated the forum over the last few weeks. Of course we should all be bitterly disappointed by a 123 point loss but the level of anger and vitriol has been excessive.

I fear it's only going to get worse, too.

You must have the greatest headphones when you go to the football that drowns out so many of our supporters. If you think it's confined to just football forums I don't think you're mixing with a lot of our supporters. Talk back radio, work, football games and even a training session I attended recently have all had a negative vibe when talking to other supporters.
David Smorgon raised the expectation and people are holding the club to that until a reason is given otherwise. It's not like Smorgon said we've had 3 legitimate cracks at a flag and in 2011 we will do a quick rebuild and attack 2012 with renewed spirit. The fact that we kept Hahn on as insurance indicated we believed we were genuine contenders again and not in a rebuilding phase.

[kruder]

Anyone know if its the same issue with Hargrave?

I understand Eade wanting to bring him back early but surley they have learnt from previous mistakes?

Higgins should have come back via the twos IMO.

[Topdog]

I didn't say he wasn't privy to the inner workings of the football department. I asked him if he was, as he could then justify his negativity with some actual insight rather than mindlessly calling the Club unprofessional.

Big difference

you also included


step back and refrain from potting the Club over an issue you know nothing about.

why do you need to be privy to the inner workings of the club to be able to have an opinion? And you don't need to be privy to the inner workings of the club to know about an issue.

[The Pie Man]

Unfortunately, I feel that these last minute team changes are a sign that the club doesn't know it's rear end from it's elbow & things are rapidly disappearing down the gurgler.

Unprofessional nonsense, no matter what.

While I don't necessarily agree with this, I think there's every chance that this is the perception the footy world has of us right now.

I read that it looks 'desperate' on twitter earlier, and I can see why. Hopefully it's an inspired move instead.

[Maddog37]

Isn't it just good old fashioned ducks and drakes? No harm in playing selection games. The messiah Malthouse does it too and he is a genius according to most.

A lot of aggression in some posts lately. Footy really brings out the Passion in people!

[Rocco Jones]

Rocco, you have taken my line completely out of context and by saying "I hate uber-negativity", you've completely contradicted yourself (by quoting my post which was all about uber-negativity).

How am I contradicting myself? I am as against mindless negativity as anyone but that doesn't mean I so extremely positive. I see you and a few others as the other extreme to the extreme negativity that we see.


I don't defend the Club 100% of the time and I certainly don't use the "you're not an insider, so don't have an opinion" line of attach so don't tar me with that brush. What I will do is make someone accountable for a ridiculous comment, negative or positive.


I never said you use the 'insider' line, I didn't even think you were one to be honest. I just said you use the 'you aren't inside the club' line a lot, I thought you were including yourself in that.



We're all here because we love the Western Bulldogs. Some of the crap that has been spouted in the last week has been ridiculous. Quoting posts from 2 or 3 years ago to prove a point about being right all along, some putting conditions on their memberships if certain personnel don't change. Whenever someone has the gall to actually be positive and defend the Club, they have been shot down in flames. Bornadog must have scorch marks on his arse :)

You use such extremes. I hate the conditional members and I would never do or say that but is the only other option bornadog and co? I love bornadog's positivity but he is like boxer from Animal Farm.


And it's not just 1 or 2 posters. There has been a distinctly vitriolic atmosphere (if an online forum can have atmosphere) develop over the past couple of weeks. I realise that some of it is just posturising by keyboard warriors, but I log into WOOF to have rational, civilised discussion about the Club I love. Not bleating about how we're unprofessional because we made some late changes.

If bresker had have justified his comment about the Club being unprofessional with some actual insight, I would have no issue. But this irrational negativity on a PRO-Bulldogs forum sucks and I won't just cop it.

I agree with a lot of that. You probably think I am a negative fan but I won't read FB or BF dogs stuff because it's inanely negative and I actually disagree with bresker's point. I THINK BRESKER IS WRONG. The difference is, I don't go in with 'we are not in the know, they know best' line and then have a go at posters for not backing up their points. You are doing exactly the same.

I don't see the stupidly negative stuff as rational, civilised discussion but I also don't see the whole 'they must know what's best, we are just fans' as having any real depth.

[Rocco Jones]

Isn't it just good old fashioned ducks and drakes? No harm in playing selection games. The messiah Malthouse does it too and he is a genius according to most.

A lot of aggression in some posts lately. Footy really brings out the Passion in people!

I agree.

I actually think Eade is right and Bresker is wrong. I just hate the 'you are not in the know, they know best' line.

[Desipura]

Anyway......back on topic, all 3 emergencies played yesterday, right? :D

[bornadog]

Anyway......back on topic, all 3 emergencies played yesterday, right? :D

Hopefully there is no last minute issues in the warm up like West Coast had two weeks ago.

[Rocco Jones]

Hopefully there is no last minute issues in the warm up like West Coast had two weeks ago.

It's a hard one isn't it? If we need an emergency and we have to come on someone who played at Willy, we will look poor. Thing is, we have have deprived a few guys of games without needing them this season.

With the sub rule, I think the risk of having to rely on a guy who played for Willy is minimised as they probably only have to play a quarter.

[comrade]

I see you as the other extreme to the extreme negativity that we see.

If you believe that, you're kidding yourself.

[Rocco Jones]

If you believe that, you're kidding yourself.

I erred in not adding 'when it comes to Eade'. I think you're very logical and fair. You will have a go at players who deserve it and the like but get very defensive when it comes to Rocket.

[bresker]

I'm certainly not relentlessly negative, but I think a lot of things are going wrong with the club at the moment and these strange selection decisions are symptomatic of that.

I would have loved to be have been proven wrong, really I would, but Gilbee and Lake had no impact today.

I wrote my previous post at about 3.00am after a bottle of tawny port so was probably out of line :-)

[comrade]

I'm certainly not relentlessly negative, but I think a lot of things are going wrong with the club at the moment and these strange selection decisions are symptomatic of that.

I would have loved to be have been proven wrong, really I would, but Gilbee and Lake had no impact today.

I wrote my previous post at about 3.00am after a bottle of tawny port so was probably out of line :-)

A whole bottle? That will do it every time.. :)

Lake and Gilbee were all at sea and didn't repay the faith shown in them. Gilbee does need a spell but I'm clueless when it comes to Lake. His time at Willy hasn't had the desired effect, so what are we supposed to do with him?

[LostDoggy]

A whole bottle? That will do it every time.. :)

Lake and Gilbee were all at sea and didn't repay the faith shown in them. Gilbee does need a spell but I'm clueless when it comes to Lake. His time at Willy hasn't had the desired effect, so what are we supposed to do with him?
I think we just play Lake for the rest of the year. If he does not improve then his time is up with us and hopefully someone will take a punt on him in the draft otherwise like Hall his body might be failing him.

[Topdog]

If as stated earlier Lake put his hand up to play than I think we keep playing him. If he has the desire he will come good and lets face it we aren't exactly going to be winning games just by bringing in Markovic.

[bornadog]

Lake and Gilbee were all at sea and didn't repay the faith shown in them. Gilbee does need a spell but I'm clueless when it comes to Lake. His time at Willy hasn't had the desired effect, so what are we supposed to do with him?

I was happy with Lake in as there is an upside and the more game time at AFL level the better. As for Gilbee, we made a statement, and dropped him for only having 5 disposals last week and what happens, he is back in due to injury and he plays badly again.

We really should have brought in DJ instead of Gilbee.