Shaun Higgins

[Rocco Jones]

Maybe this shouldn't have it's own thread or be merged but what do we do with this guy? I loved his work when he first came to the club, he looked like such a brave kid and had all the tools. He has been an monumental disappointment.

He has been a whipping boy of mine this season and I must say I lost it today at him. I read a comment from a poster on here who said his game looked good on TV. It is so typical of Shaun. Never seen a player who looks so much better on TV.

For those of you who went today, how often did he point for others to pick up his opponent? I have never seen a player do it as much as he did today. At one point he even moved on to pointing for others to pick up another team mate's opponent, the distraction lead him to losing his opponent who got an uncontested mark!

He is an absolute down hill skier. He is like a Jamacian when there's defensive work to be done and like a Kenyan when a cheap goal is on offering.

Do we drop him for next week? I think overall he helps us to be competitive but he not only fails to provide us with leadership, he actually sends the wrong message to the kids. I think he has to go.

[Mantis]

I have made my feelings on him known in the MC thread.

As someone who also enjoys watching Higgins I too was embarrassed by his performance today.

He needs to be dropped and I firmly believe that the MC need to make a stand with our so called leaders who refuse to do the basics... they are teaching our kids the wrong things... The fact that Higgo berates our young guys doesn't help either.

[westdog54]

I haven't seen any of today's game so I can't comment. Having said that, I've always found Rocco to be a pretty good judge of this game, so if that's what he says happened then I'll believe it, and if that's whats happened then he needs to be sent a very very clear message. That's just not good enough.

[GVGjr]

The fact that Higgo berates our young guys doesn't help either.

He needs to find some form and work ethic at Williamstown but I'm not sure what this part of your posts means?

[LostDoggy]

I have made my feelings on him known in the MC thread.

As someone who also enjoys watching Higgins I too was embarrassed by his performance today.

He needs to be dropped and I firmly believe that the MC need to make a stand with our so called leaders who refuse to do the basics... they are teaching our kids the wrong things... The fact that Higgo berates our young guys doesn't help either.

Yes, just commented on the Match Day thread also. Our leaders need a kick up the butt, how do they expect the younger guys to play for the team/and or them when they treat them like that? I don't understand it at all.......

[Rocco Jones]

.
He needs to be dropped and I firmly believe that the MC need to make a stand with our so called leaders who refuse to do the basics... they are teaching our kids the wrong things... The fact that Higgo berates our young guys doesn't help either.

That's what worries me most about them, especially Higgins.

I know it's a massive risk to play a team full of kids but what's the point of a leader if they are teaching the wrong things? The only value I see in playing him is that he makes up a bit more competitive but he isn't going to make the difference between a belting and a competitive loss anyway.

[Rocco Jones]

He needs to find some form and work ethic at Williamstown but I'm not sure what this part of your posts means?

I think I can answer that one for Mantis.

Higgins had a go at Jones for a shabby kick, another attack on a young player for not picking up his own man so Shaun didn't have to and generally spent the day point and screaming to others where to go while his own opponents get it with ease.

[lemmon]

Should be dropped but I think alternatively I would definitely be looking at his position as a leader, no bigger slap in the face then being dumped from the leadership group

[GVGjr]

I think I can answer that one for Mantis.

Higgins had a go at Jones for a shabby kick, another attack on a young player for not picking up his own man so Shaun didn't have to and generally spent the day point and screaming to others where to go while his own opponents get it with ease.

Thanks, After re-reading things I worked it out.

[Mantis]

Higgins had a go at Jones for a shabby kick, another attack on a young player for not picking up his own man so Shaun didn't have to and generally spent the day point and screaming to others where to go while his own opponents get it with ease.

He also gave it to Libba on more than one occassion.

[LostDoggy]

Was watching through the glasses and like OP was struck by how much pointing he was doing. Also saw that the other players just seem to ignore him. By contrast I saw Bob giving Reid some instructions and Reid was straight onto it.

Hiiggins is playing like its his first year all over again. Maybe its his confidence. Not sure.

[Rocco Jones]

He also gave it to Libba on more than one occassion.

Oh so ironic too. Libba is more of a 'leader' than Shaun IMO. Libba did have a stinker but a show pony getting into his ear won't help.

[Hotdog60]

Was watching through the glasses and like OP was struck by how much pointing he was doing. Also saw that the other players just seem to ignore him. By contrast I saw Bob giving Reid some instructions and Reid was straight onto it.

Hiiggins is playing like its his first year all over again. Maybe its his confidence. Not sure.

Murphy has been one of the few shinning lights this year and you would listen to him as for Higgins if he was in the top 5 on the team you might listen also but at the moment he's not demanding respect.

[BulldogBelle]

Will the MC take a stand against a senior player who is in the leadership group?

If it does, we are moving in the right direction.

If I had to choose between Ward and Higgins leaving and going to GWS, I know which one I would choose to leave.

[Rocco Jones]

If I had to choose between Ward and Higgins leaving and going to GWS, I know which one I would choose to leave.

I think we should give GWS compensation to take Higgins. He is nowhere near Ward.

Higgins is a leader on paper only. In reality, he does more harm than good as a 'leader'.

[Scorlibo]

Maybe this shouldn't have it's own thread or be merged but what do we do with this guy? I loved his work when he first came to the club, he looked like such a brave kid and had all the tools. He has been an monumental disappointment.

No, this shouldn't have its own thread. There is a thread for Higgins bashing every week.

Monumental disappointment? Name me five bulldogs to have had a bigger impact in their first 50 games in the last decade. Bet you can't.


He has been a whipping boy of mine this season and I must say I lost it today at him. I read a comment from a poster on here who said his game looked good on TV. It is so typical of Shaun. Never seen a player who looks so much better on TV.

Defensively, maybe. Offensively at the game you have the chance to see his vision where you can't on the TV.


For those of you who went today, how often did he point for others to pick up his opponent? I have never seen a player do it as much as he did today. At one point he even moved on to pointing for others to pick up another team mate's opponent, the distraction lead him to losing his opponent who got an uncontested mark!

As a Bulldogs player, I reckon he knows a bit more about the team's defensive instructions than you RJ, and if another teammate fails to follow said structure, making Higgo have to direct him, that is that player's fault.


Do we drop him for next week? I think overall he helps us to be competitive but he not only fails to provide us with leadership, he actually sends the wrong message to the kids. I think he has to go.

Nup, he was again better than half the team and is one of the few players who still makes things happen. When he, Ward, Griffen and Sherman combined from half back to half forward it was our best play for the night.

[SonofScray]

Would recommend we drop him. Incredibly frustrating player that really doesn't deserve the amount of 'credits in the bank' Eade has given him. Petulant display today, so much for being a future captain.

[Remi Moses]

Why is it as soon as the truth is talked about here the old "scapegoat" tripe gets thrown around. It's almost like that cringeworthy "Un Australian" crap gets trotted out!
Higgins was awful and has been for a while, he just isn't intensity or effort in his game.
He's lazy and the only stat he won today was the finger pointing variety.
Watch the game instead of looking through bulldog goggles:rolleyes:

[Topdog]

The pointing is the main reason I was against Boyd being made captain. I haven't been able to see many games this year (probably fortunately) so if he has improved in this area I apologise for bringing it up.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I must say we all know he has the goods and wish he could be 100% fit and on the park, for me he doesn't look fit still and I would leave him in the team but leave him to only play as a FP were he has a direct opponent, I don't think he should play in the middle as he runs the other way to his opponent and that hurt us today.

[Topdog]

Why is it as soon as the truth is talked about here the old "scapegoat" tripe gets thrown around. It's almost like that cringeworthy "Un Australian" crap gets trotted out!
Higgins was awful and has been for a while, he just isn't intensity or effort in his game.
He's lazy and the only stat he won today was the finger pointing variety.
Watch the game instead of looking through bulldog goggles:rolleyes:

I'm surprised we haven't been told that he is injured yet.

[bornadog]

He also gave it to Libba on more than one occassion.

Maybe he was teaching him;)

[Doc26]

Shaun had a very promising pre season, one of our better performers through the period.
There's a stark difference with Shaun's movement in January to what we are seeing now.

He really is getting no power out of his legs and it appears very reminiscent of his OP & thyroid flair up from last year.

What we are seeing I fear is a player vey frustrated with his own body, who mentally is trying to push through it but physically is incapable of doing so.

I'd like to cut him some slack here as it really looks like it is body which has failed him again.

[Rocco Jones]

Maybe he was teaching him;)

I agree!

'Hey Tom, your role to work hard so jets like me and Gia can shine! I am a leader, it says so on this badge Rocket gave me.'

[Mofra]

What we are seeing I fear is a player vey frustrated with his own body, who mentally is trying to push through it but physically is incapable of doing so.
Exactly how I see it. The question remains though - is an 80% fit Higgins better than the next option as a HF/high forward player?

I'd be loathe to throw Dalhaus to the wolves by making him debut against Geelong at Skilled but he seems a lively type who coudl play at senior level this year.

[Rocco Jones]

Exactly how I see it. The question remains though - is an 80% fit Higgins better than the next option as a HF/high forward player?

I'd be loathe to throw Dalhaus to the wolves by making him debut against Geelong at Skilled but he seems a lively type who coudl play at senior level this year.

The problem I have is that he only looks injured when he has to work hard defensively. Whatever the problem, it sets a terrible example to the kids. I hate throwing kids to the wolves but what choice do you have when your senior players are actually destructive as leaders?

[Topdog]

What we are seeing I fear is a player vey frustrated with his own body, who mentally is trying to push through it but physically is incapable of doing so.

I'd like to cut him some slack here as it really looks like it is body which has failed him again.

I think that would be OK if it were a one off but this is now the 3rd? season in a row where his body has failed him. He has to learn when not to play because he does cost the team rather badly when he is like it. We've all seen his potential and he seems like a good guy and I'm certain everyone would like to see him succeed at the dogs but.....

[bornadog]

Shaun had a very promising pre season, one of our better performers through the period.
There's a stark difference with Shaun's movement in January to what we are seeing now.

He really is getting no power out of his legs and it appears very reminiscent of his OP & thyroid flair up from last year.

What we are seeing I fear is a player vey frustrated with his own body, who mentally is trying to push through it but physically is incapable of doing so.

Regarding the denigration of him in this thread, I'd like to cut him some slack here as it really looks like it is body which has failed him again.


I agree!

'Hey Tom, your role to work hard so jets like me and Gia can shine! I am a leader, it says so on this badge Rocket gave me.'

You know what Rocco, you can learn how to post by reading Doc26's post, not this rubbish you dish out.

I know your saying it in jest but I know you mean what you are saying.

Higgings is not playing well and deserves to be dropped.

[Rocco Jones]

You know what Rocco, you can learn how to post by reading Doc26's post, not this rubbish you dish out.

I know your saying it in jest but I know you mean what you are saying.

Higgings is not playing well and deserves to be dropped.

What am I saying?

[Sedat]

I'd be loathe to throw Dalhaus to the wolves by making him debut against Geelong at Skilled but he seems a lively type who coudl play at senior level this year.
I actually think it would be a risk not to play someone who has obvious leg speed and an appetite to chase and tackle in our forward 50. Our key forwards created enough crumbs tonight (many times after being outnumbered 3-1) but the opposition defenders ran it out with monotinous ease (se they invariably do against us most weeks).

Dahlhaus has attributes we desperately need, so he comes in for Higgins if I was in charge of MC. Hill might get dropped but what's the point....arguably what was the point of recalling him this week in any event?

[Dancin' Douggy]

what was the point of recalling anyone?

[Doc26]

Exactly how I see it. The question remains though - is an 80% fit Higgins better than the next option as a HF/high forward player?

I'd be loathe to throw Dalhaus to the wolves by making him debut against Geelong at Skilled but he seems a lively type who coudl play at senior level this year.

As much as I'd love to say yes I couldn't advocate it.
I don't believe his spirit or leadership should be in question, it's a young lad with a broken body where physically he is not able to compete or in particular, chase, weave or break any lines.

It is a real dilemma as to what the future holds for Shaun, playing him in this state just doesn't seem a viable option for Club or player.

I really feel for him.

[comrade]

I actually think it would be a risk not to play someone who has obvious leg speed and an appetite to chase and tackle in our forward 50. Our key forwards created enough crumbs tonight (many times after being outnumbered 3-1) but the opposition defenders ran it out with monotinous ease (se they invariably do against us most weeks).

Dahlhaus has attributes we desperately need, so he comes in for Higgins if I was in charge of MC. Hill might get dropped but what's the point....arguably what was the point of recalling him this week in any event?

It felt like Hawthorn had 9 defenders and we had 3 forwards in our 50 all game. How else could the ball stream out and find a loose man, over and over again.

[comrade]

As much as I'd love to say yes I couldn't advocate it.
I don't believe his spirit or leadership should be in question, it's a young lad with a broken body were physically he is not able to compete or in particular chase, weave or break any lines.

It is a real dilemma as to what the future holds for Shaun, playing him in this state just doesn't seem a viable option for Club or player.

I really feel for him.

If this is the case, why are we picking him?

[SonofScray]

Have to be careful Rocco. Football and the subsequent discussions it produces are no place for emotion, humour, or personal opinion. You must tow the party line!

I think all fans recognise the impact that injury has had on Shaun, however, you can only deal with what is produced and at this point in time he is producing a whole heap of shit. Talent, leadership, potential or not, at some point in time you have to push him aside and play someone else who is not not so inhibited. Hopefully he can get his body right and be the player we all expected, right now though he isn't and we can't afford to be carrying him.

I am happy to turn most of my frustrations towards those that keep selecting him.

[Rocco Jones]

If this is the case, why are we picking him?

It's hard to tell without being in house (truly not a stab at our prior discussions, just truly a case where that's true, don't know how fit he is etc) but I think we are/were trying to be as competitive as possible.

No logical person can have a go at Eade atm for not playing kids. It's folly to play too many kids/throwing them to the wolves and the like. I agree with them giving Higgins a crack. Thing is, he really does seem to be counter productive as a leader at the moment.

[Mantis]

I don't believe his spirit or leadership should be in question, it's a young lad with a broken body where physically he is not able to compete or in particular, chase, weave or break any lines.

It is a real dilemma as to what the future holds for Shaun, playing him in this state just doesn't seem a viable option for Club or player.

I really feel for him.

That's a cop out Doc.

We have babies in this team who need nurturing, they don't need to be berated by there colleagues who should no better... The fact that the 'leaders' aren't practicing what they preach doesn't sit well with me.

[Doc26]

If this is the case, why are we picking him?

In short, I don't know.

Possibly because as a leader he is trying valiantly to push through it and each week somewhat admirably keeps putting his hand up to play.

As a supporter of Shaun's it's really hard to accept that what should be a flourishing AFL career is being cut short because his body keeps failing him.

I suggest the MC would be really grappling with what to do with this ongoing predicament.

[Rocco Jones]

That's a cop out Doc.

Wa have babies in this team who need nurturing, they don't need to be berated by there colleagues who should no better... The fact that the 'leaders' aren't practicing what they preach doesn't sit well with me.

Exactly. Even if his body is totally gone and he can't move, is that any reason to bake others?

[Sedat]

The fact that the 'leaders' aren't practicing what they preach doesn't sit well with me.
For Rocket's sake, I hope he doesn't fall on his sword because of his leaders.

[Rocco Jones]

For Rocket's sake, I hope he doesn't fall on his sword because of his leaders.

I agree. I think I have been harsh on Rocket lately but something's got to give. It's either Eade or the leadership group. I am a much bigger fan of Eade than I am our leadership group but if he doesn't make some real changes, the buck simply has to stop with him.

[Mantis]

For Rocket's sake, I hope he doesn't fall on his sword because of his leaders.

It's a bit like 'Get them before they get you'.

[Doc26]

That's a cop out Doc.

We have babies in this team who need nurturing, they don't need to be berated by there colleagues who should no better... The fact that the 'leaders' aren't practicing what they preach doesn't sit well with me.

Maybe it is a cop out as all things being equal he should be supporting the 'babies' in his leadership capacity.

Maybe I'm reading way too much into it and will be proven wrong but to me tonight's game just appeared a watershed for Shaun.

The restriction in his movement was simply so evident to suggest his days, at least this season, must be limited. The realisation of this for Shaun must be incredibly difficult to reconcile with.

I'm just struggling to kick him while he's down.

[LostDoggy]

I think we should keep Shaun in the side but remove the leadership role. Get him to concentrate on footy and getting himself right first. He is actually a gun player with vision and silky skills, he is worth persisting with.

[SonofScray]

If Rocket did make some big calls along those lines, I'd probably give my thoughts around the need to sack him a rethink.

[Mantis]

I think we should keep Shaun in the side but remove the leadership role. Get him to concentrate on footy and getting himself right first. He is actually a gun player with vision and silky skills, he is worth persisting with.

But he is a defensive liability and in a team that is clearly struggling we simply can't carry this type.

If we were playing the type of footy we have shown thru 2008-2010 we could get by, but we need all hands on deck at present and Shaun is either unable or unwilling to play his part.

[Scorlibo]

Why is it as soon as the truth is talked about here the old "scapegoat" tripe gets thrown around. It's almost like that cringeworthy "Un Australian" crap gets trotted out!
Higgins was awful and has been for a while, he just isn't intensity or effort in his game.
He's lazy and the only stat he won today was the finger pointing variety.
Watch the game instead of looking through bulldog goggles:rolleyes:

How can you say I'm wearing 'bulldogs goggles' when what we're discussing is concerned purely with the internal structure of the team?

I have read a fair few of your posts and it's pretty clear you don't have a clue, so I won't waste too much time correcting you, but..

Higgins produced four good games before injury. He was disappointing before being subbed off against the Eagles in his first game back, and performed on par with most of the team today. So either you find some consistency in your opinion and call most of the team 'awful' or just keep quiet.


I agree!

'Hey Tom, your role to work hard so jets like me and Gia can shine! I am a leader, it says so on this badge Rocket gave me.'

No one went harder at the contest than Gia today, and no one was more dangerous around the forward fifty. Both of these players outperformed Tom today, who had a shocker.


You know what Rocco, you can learn how to post by reading Doc26's post, not this rubbish you dish out.

I know your saying it in jest but I know you mean what you are saying.

Higgings is not playing well and deserves to be dropped.

Here are 12 players who were worse than Higgins today:

Hall
Reid
Liberatore
Hill
Gilbee
Jones
Wood
Lake
Howard
Williams
Sherman
Wallis

Every one of the above players should be dropped ahead of Higgins.

[Rocco Jones]

Gia was good today Scorlilbo, you're right.

By what means do you see Higgins as being 'better'? Sure, he did 'more' than a few others but his type is a massive liability to the team. Not meaning to be a smartarse but did you watch the game live or on TV? (genuinely think there's a massive difference when it comes to Higgins).

His SC score might have been higher than most and he did a lot more 'nice' things than the vast majority but his defensive pressure was absolutely pathetic and a 'leader' berating kids like that is simply not on.

Selection isn't just on who are the best 22 players at the club, we have probably already done that long enough (understandable when you're a contender). I know Shaun will offer us 'more' than his replacement but that's an extremely short term approach.

[AndrewP6]

Here are 12 players who were worse than Higgins today:

Howard
Williams
Sherman
Wallis

Every one of the above players should be dropped ahead of Higgins.

Drop a bloke after his first game? He didn't look out of place today.

[Greystache]

How can you say I'm wearing 'bulldogs goggles' when what we're discussing is concerned purely with the internal structure of the team?

I have read a fair few of your posts and it's pretty clear you don't have a clue, so I won't waste too much time correcting you, but..

Higgins produced four good games before injury. He was disappointing before being subbed off against the Eagles in his first game back, and performed on par with most of the team today. So either you find some consistency in your opinion and call most of the team 'awful' or just keep quiet.



No one went harder at the contest than Gia today, and no one was more dangerous around the forward fifty. Both of these players outperformed Tom today, who had a shocker.



Here are 12 players who were worse than Higgins today:

Hall
Reid
Liberatore
Hill
Gilbee
Jones
Wood
Lake
Howard
Williams
Sherman
Wallis

Every one of the above players should be dropped ahead of Higgins.

You clearly weren't at the game today.

[Mantis]

Maybe it is a cop out as all things being equal he should be supporting the 'babies' in his leadership capacity.

Maybe I'm reading way too much into it and will be proven wrong but to me tonight's game just appeared a watershed for Shaun.

The restriction in his movement was simply so evident to suggest his days, at least this season, must be limited. The realisation of this for Shaun must be incredibly difficult to reconcile with.

I'm just struggling to kick him while he's down.

I just don't see that.

I agree that he was moving extremely well thru the pre-season and probably isn't moving as freely now (who is??), but I don't see him 'labouring' like you explain at present.

[giaco]

His first full game for about 5 weeks.

Far from our worst today. I just don't understand the hate for Higgins. He'll be better next week.

[EasternWest]

His first full game for about 5 weeks.

Far from our worst today. I just don't understand the hate for Higgins. He'll be better next week.

I don't think it's hate, I think it's that expectations are very high.

[Scorlibo]

Gia was good today Scorlilbo, you're right.

By what means do you see Higgins as being 'better'? Sure, he did 'more' than a few others but his type is a massive liability to the team. Not meaning to be a smartarse but did you watch the game live or on TV? (genuinely think there's a massive difference when it comes to Higgins).

His SC score might have been higher than most and he did a lot more 'nice' things than the vast majority but his defensive pressure was absolutely pathetic and a 'leader' berating kids like that is simply not on.

Selection isn't just on who are the best 22 players at the club, we have probably already done that long enough (understandable when you're a contender). I know Shaun will offer us 'more' than his replacement but that's an extremely short term approach.

RJ, I watched the game from the third row.

I witnessed several instances of good defensive pressure from Higgins. Most of these were in tight, where he was determined to find the ball. When in space I can't comment too much, I can't say I kept one eye on him the whole game, like most here probably, I was focusing on those players like Lake and Gilbee who looked lost when they showed great reading of the play not long ago.

I tend not to comment on reports of 'pointing' and 'berating' as none of us have any idea what such actions actually meant, and how they were delivered (does anyone actually have any proof of 'berating'?).

So you think Shaun (23) is not in the long term future of the club? I would say that he, Ward, Griffen and Cooney will form the core of our team for years to come and need to be given as much time together through the middle as possible.


Drop a bloke after his first game? He didn't look out of place today.

He didn't look out of place in the sense that he showed promise, but we need more than what he will offer us this year. It comes down to what you are selecting the team for, success, or future success. Personally, I've had it with the 'future' and selecting for the 'future', it's about time we demanded success now, and demanded it from the senior core who we know are capable of producing very good football.

[Scorlibo]

You clearly weren't at the game today.

Cool post.

I was at the game, and I would challenge you to defy my statement, there were 12 players on the ground, wearing bulldogs colours, who were worse than Higgins.

[AndrewP6]

He didn't look out of place in the sense that he showed promise, but we need more than what he will offer us this year. It comes down to what you are selecting the team for, success, or future success. Personally, I've had it with the 'future' and selecting for the 'future', it's about time we demanded success now, and demanded it from the senior core who we know are capable of producing very good football.

How can we tell what he will offer us? He could be anything. As you say, he showed promise - for a first gamer, that's a positive.
I agree about the senior core needing to produce - not so sure the words "Bulldogs" and "very good" will be closely linked this year.

[Rocco Jones]

So you think Shaun (23) is not in the long term future of the club?


Of course I do/hope, that's what I am concerned with, the long term.

I don't agree with how extreme you are but I do agree that he brings enough value to be in our best 22. However, long term I think it's best for him to be out of the side for a while.

[Greystache]

Cool post.

I was at the game, and I would challenge you to defy my statement, there were 12 players on the ground, wearing bulldogs colours, who were worse than Higgins.

Oh dear.

You know there's more things going on during a game than who has the ball in their hands. Just a tip.

Guerra was pretty much BOG.

[Doc26]

I just don't see that.

I agree that he was moving extremely well thru the pre-season and probably isn't moving as freely now (who is??), but I don't see him 'labouring' like you explain at present.

Might be my eyes failing me but he looks hampered to me.

Will be interested to see what plays out with Shaun in the coming weeks.

[Mantis]

I witnessed several instances of good defensive pressure from Higgins. Most of these were in tight, where he was determined to find the ball. When in space I can't comment too much, I can't say I kept one eye on him the whole game, like most here probably, I was focusing on those players like Lake and Gilbee who looked lost when they showed great reading of the play not long ago.

See I can.

I watch closely when the opposition who like to chip the ball around can do so with ease. I watch for which players aren't willing to do the hard yards to find a man and stick with him. I watch for the players who try and cover up their inadequacy in this area by trying to get others to cover for them.

I rated Higgins, Ward & Boyd the worst in this area.


I tend not to comment on reports of 'pointing' and 'berating' as none of us have any idea what such actions actually meant, and how they were delivered (does anyone actually have any proof of 'berating'?).



Body language of the individuals involved gives a very good idea of what's occuring and it was pretty clear that on a number of occassions Shaun was 'berating' his younger team-mates.

[Sedat]

I watch closely when the opposition who like to chip the ball around can do so with ease. I watch for which players aren't willing to do the hard yards to find a man and stick with him. I watch for the players who try and cover up their inadequacy in this area by trying to get others to cover for them.
Daniel Cross was interviewed on SEN post-game and he was at pains to highlight the inadequacy of the entire team to man up and pressure Hawthorn when they had possession of the ball. He was almost exasperated such was the level of frustration in his voice. He didn't name any names, despite being prompted to do so.

[LostDoggy]

But he is a defensive liability and in a team that is clearly struggling we simply can't carry this type.

If we were playing the type of footy we have shown thru 2008-2010 we could get by, but we need all hands on deck at present and Shaun is either unable or unwilling to play his part.

Correct on both counts but... Where are we at this season? Shaun is a guy we need to have in our side for next season and beyond. We can't drop everyone, there are a number of older blokes that won't be part of our next crack at the big one. Higgins may well be and it's worthwhile persisting with him and working through these issues. Take away his leadership duties as a measure of intent though.

Of course if the guy is injured then he should not play but he seems to go okay offensively. It seems either fitness or mindset or both. We just need to tap his potential. If the issues continue for the next couple then out he goes.

Caveat: I am stuck in Adelaide so I don't get to watch from the stands often enough.

I would have Hall, Gilbee and Crossy out before Shaun if we have enough talent to bring in.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Unfortunately, Rocco and Mantis are spot on.

Higgins was really poor. His body language is shocking and I got into a few discussions with supporters about how much he was pointing the finger. It was unbelievable; I've never seen anyone point their finger as much as he did. As Rocco explained, Higgins lost sight of his opponent on a few occasions because he was busy pointing. This has nothing to do with restricted movement.

Is his body really that bad, or are we trying to find excuses for a player that is horribly out of form and unwilling to do the basics?

I worry for Higgins' future.

[Scorlibo]

How can we tell what he will offer us? He could be anything. As you say, he showed promise - for a first gamer, that's a positive.


Absolutely, but his performance was not that of a best 22 player. He wasn't alone, and I actually never said that he should be dropped, just that he should be dropped before Higgins.


Of course I do/hope, that's what I am concerned with, the long term.

I don't agree with how extreme you are but I do agree that he brings enough value to be in our best 22. However, long term I think it's best for him to be out of the side for a while.

Please don't think that I overly liked Higgins' game today. He was sub-standard, but we know how good he could be, and until he's actually one of our worst players, I see no point in forgoing the potential for his best football by dropping him.


See I can.

I watch closely when the opposition who like to chip the ball around can do so with ease. I watch for which players aren't willing to do the hard yards to find a man and stick with him. I watch for the players who try and cover up their inadequacy in this area by trying to get others to cover for them.

I rated Higgins, Ward & Boyd the worst in this area.

Interesting. I can't disagree with you as I prefer to follow the nuances around the football, the willingness to spread with and without the ball and the ability to out body players around the ball.

In these areas Higgins, Griffen, Murphy, Giansiracusa, Ward and Lake (at least last year) are very good, while players such as Picken and Wood often are let down by their awareness of what is around them.


Body language of the individuals involved gives a very good idea of what's occuring and it was pretty clear that on a number of occassions Shaun was 'berating' his younger team-mates.

It's still speculation.

[LostDoggy]

With Higgins at the moment there are two issues ,

1st:Regards his output on the field , even he ( injury not withstanding ) would agree that his output is not up to the required standard this season

2nd: More importantly is his attitude on the field, for a player of his age and the fact that he is in the Leadership Group he needs to take some time to review his attitude , not only how he approaches game day but his attitude towards the younger players coming through. No player for any team should take the Jumper for granted , he has to remember the day he was given his first game day jumper and the fact that he had to work for that day . His body language and his attitude particularly towards Liberatore today was beneath him

Having said that I am not going to just single Higgins out, he is one part of a team , a team that needs some cohesion and direction and we are only going to get that if players like Higgins start to shoulder their full share of responsibility

.

[MrMahatma]

See I can.

I watch closely when the opposition who like to chip the ball around can do so with ease. I watch for which players aren't willing to do the hard yards to find a man and stick with him. I watch for the players who try and cover up their inadequacy in this area by trying to get others to cover for them.

I rated Higgins, Ward & Boyd the worst in this area.



Body language of the individuals involved gives a very good idea of what's occuring and it was pretty clear that on a number of occassions Shaun was 'berating' his younger team-mates.

What are the non-negotiables in our game plan? Surely defensive pressure, given the nature of modern footy, should be one. If one bloke doesn't do his job then the whole team is busting their collective asses for nothing.

Captain, leadership team or rising star - they should be held accountable.

Someone said "we can't drop everyone" - this is true. We need to focus on one problem and fix it. We've lacked on field leadership for a long time IMO. I think that's what needs fixing first. The best display of leadership is pushing physically harder than anyone to do the tough stuff.

At the moment I'd rather we dropped blokes for not doing the tough stuff than for skill/decision errors.

[LostDoggy]

I honestly wouldn't be at all concerned if we offered this guy up for trade at the end of the year. Is not a leader and is barely even an AFL standard player at this point in time. Doesn't even have half of young Libba's application and hunger yet apparently feels that he can spray him on the field in front of everybody?? Sounds like we have real leadership issues down there and perhaps blokes lack respect for anyone but themselves? Heading back toAustralia today, it's been a blessing not having access to the games for a month! Time for all of us members to concede that we are no longer a good team and look toasted building a team that will once again be able to have a crack at it down the track. What should we br looking got now? For me it's development and opportunity got the kids on the list, as well as effort and hunger for the contest.

[LostDoggy]

I honestly wouldn't be at all concerned if we offered this guy up for trade at the end of the year. Is not a leader and is barely even an AFL standard player at this point in time. Doesn't even have half of young Libba's application and hunger yet apparently feels that he can spray him on the field in front of everybody?? Sounds like we have real leadership issues down there and perhaps blokes lack respect for anyone but themselves? Heading back toAustralia today, it's been a blessing not having access to the games for a month! Time for all of us members to concede that we are no longer a good team and look toasted building a team that will once again be able to have a crack at it down the track. What should we br looking got now? For me it's development and opportunity got the kids on the list, as well as effort and hunger for the contest.

Appologies for some of the spelling mistakes in my above post! Typing on my iPhone

Cheers

[GVGjr]

I don't like using injuries as an excuse for a player but should we be making allowances for Higgins in this area? This week Akermanis came out and called him physically fragile and said he hadn't earned his leadership position. This should have been a stinging motivation for him to perform well and clearly he came up well short. Does this mean that he doesn't have the right sort of character or does it highlight he just isn't right to play?

The fact that he was handing out advice to Jones might have been a reaction to the Akermanis leadership jibe as well.

[chef]

Cool post.

I was at the game, and I would challenge you to defy my statement, there were 12 players on the ground, wearing bulldogs colours, who were worse than Higgins.

When you add the expectations of performance for each of these players Higgins would drop down that list. He is not fit and shouldn't be out there.

[the banker]

This is a long standing theme for me. When he arrived I thought he could eb anything. The guy has silky talents. But whether persistent injury has slowed him down and sapped confidence or whether it is a character trait I dont know, but Shaun Higgins is a a negative for the club ATM, for all the reasons stated by others. He lacks leadership qualities to me. Definitely trade bait IMO.

[always right]

This is a long standing theme for me. When he arrived I thought he could eb anything. The guy has silky talents. But whether persistent injury has slowed him down and sapped confidence or whether it is a character trait I dont know, but Shaun Higgins is a a negative for the club ATM, for all the reasons stated by others. He lacks leadership qualities to me. Definitely trade bait IMO.

I kills me to say it but he is rapidly becoming the Ryan Houlihan of our club. Great skills but.....

[LostDoggy]

Calls to trade Higgins are ridiculous. What is he 21/22?

Higgins is a player who is multi-skilled with loads of potential. Right now, there is a number of things wrong with his game including attitude.

But that's why we have a senior Coach and assistant Coaches together with a number of support staff including fitness and medical people.

It is their job to turn this bloke around. To give up and trade him would be a serious dereliction of duty. As a Club we should be better than that.

[bornadog]

Calls to trade Higgins are ridiculous. What is he 21/22?

Higgins is a player who is multi-skilled with loads of potential. Right now, there is a number of things wrong with his game including attitude.

But that's why we have a senior Coach and assistant Coaches together with a number of support staff including fitness and medical people.

It is their job to turn this bloke around. To give up and trade him would be a serious dereliction of duty. As a Club we should be better than that.

He is 23, years old and I agree with everything you have said.

[Grantysghost]

There's an interesting contrast between views on his game yesterday. I personally thought his intensity was poor defensively and as others have said on here he looks to be hampered by the groin injury he has (no power) and i guess he doesn't select himself so the MC maybe need to cop the blame there.
Having said that i noticed the pointing and remonstrating with teammates also.
At one point in the third quarter i was watching he and Gia and he was pointing to space in front of Gia and telling him to fill it. Lets just say Gia's response was less than agreeable which made me wonder if they had different copies of the game plan!
There's nothing worse in my experience in a football team than someone demanding respect rather than earning it, usually divides the team.
I wonder about Brad Johnsons absence especially with his ability to transcend groups within the team and the value of binding everyone together. Used to see him lunching with a different group everytime I was at the club.

For whats it worth i think we need to persevere with Shaun or leave him out injured.

[Ozza]

If Higgins was berating Libba out there - I am extremely disappointed with that.

Libba had a really tough day today - in reality, his first really tough day where he wasn't able to get the footy regularly and have an impact - and the first time he was man handled around the stoppages (some of Hawthorn's bigger bodies - like Lewis for example - were blocking Libba at the stoppages and keeping him out of the play). Its a day that Libba will learn from - but also a day where he could have done with a fair bit of support from the more senior heads in his team.

At the moment, Shaun isn't contributing a great deal to the side in terms of his own output - the least he can do is get around his younger team mates in a positive way.

[Mofra]

I would have Hall, Gilbee and Crossy out before Shaun if we have enough talent to bring in.
Yes, yes, no.

Not sure if Higgins deserves or will hold his spot but he isn't the first I'd drop either.

[ratsmac]

Shaun Higgins was a non player yesterday and deserves everything that comes his way this week. The fact that there a 4 pages on this thread already says enough. Is he injured? Only he can answer that. How many times do we see great players perform despite their body ailments. This in fact contributes to what we class as being great. I do agree that his spot in the leadership group has to be questioned. He probably deserves to be there in the leadership group, but he needs lessons on how to lead. Screaming and pointing fingers isn't really how to lead especially if you are not doing your part. It's ironic to say that Shaun Higgins needs to look at himself in the mirror, because I sure he does it a hell of a lot. It's what he sees in the mirror is the problem!

[Sedat]

Marc Murphy has regularly commented on his final year in TAC Cup, and that Higgins was the best midfielder in the competition that he had come up against. Higgins the midfielder...we used to drool over the prospect of Cooney, Griffen and Higgins leading our next midfield generation midfield 3 years ago. Nowadays Higgins could not run out of sight in a London fog.

We already have Gia as our clever, slow, not overly defensive but very creative half forward. Structurally we simply cannot afford to carry such a similar player (and in that particular role, inferior to Gia) like Higgins in our forward 50. I read elsewhere that Rioli was well held by Picken (and he was) but he busts his arse and runs as hard defensively when the opposition has the ball as when he does to run and create offensively. Our rebounding defenders were subjected to defensive heat when clearing, which was almost the complete opposite to what their rebounding defenders were subjected to all night.

If Higgins is to be retained on the list, he needs to have the best pre-season of his life and become an out-and-out midfielder. He needs to develop his tank to sustain repeated bursts over the course of 120 minutes - Swan was just another average half-forward 3 years ago and has transformed his game through sheer hard work. Higgins has the tools and the talent but he seriously needs to change his mindset if he is to genuinely improve.

[LostDoggy]

The one positive I saw out of Shauns game yesterday, was that he was moving a lot quicker than in previous weeks. Although he seems a bit timid out there, maybe he'll take some confidence in that his body is coming good.

[Maddog37]

Marc Murphy has regularly commented on his final year in TAC Cup, and that Higgins was the best midfielder in the competition that he had come up against. Higgins the midfielder...we used to drool over the prospect of Cooney, Griffen and Higgins leading our next midfield generation midfield 3 years ago. Nowadays Higgins could not run out of sight in a London fog.

We already have Gia as our clever, slow, not overly defensive but very creative half forward. Structurally we simply cannot afford to carry such a similar player (and in that particular role, inferior to Gia) like Higgins in our forward 50. I read elsewhere that Rioli was well held by Picken (and he was) but he busts his arse and runs as hard defensively when the opposition has the ball as when he does to run and create offensively. Our rebounding defenders were subjected to defensive heat when clearing, which was almost the complete opposite to what their rebounding defenders were subjected to all night.

If Higgins is to be retained on the list, he needs to have the best pre-season of his life and become an out-and-out midfielder. He needs to develop his tank to sustain repeated bursts over the course of 120 minutes - Swan was just another average half-forward 3 years ago and has transformed his game through sheer hard work. Higgins has the tools and the talent but he seriously needs to change his mindset if he is to genuinely improve.


Like this post but it will not help this season. In the short term could we do what Carlton have done with Gibbs. Gibbs was a talented silky player that was just not doing enough. Match him up on one of the opposition guns and see if he can stop him. Maybe play him down back? If we are to play him he must be given a chance away from the half forward role.

We need people behind the ball to provide run and delivery. At least we know he can kick.

[ratsmac]

Like this post but it will not help this season. In the short term could we do what Carlton have done with Gibbs. Gibbs was a talented silky player that was just not doing enough. Match him up on one of the opposition guns and see if he can stop him. Maybe play him down back? If we are to play him he must be given a chance away from the half forward role.

We need people behind the ball to provide run and delivery. At least we know he can kick.

Higgins in defence scares me. It would be good for him to improve his defensive skill set, but only if he practices it at Williamstown first. I remember Rocket playing Ryan Griffen in defence early in his career. I always assumed it was to teach Griffen to be accountable being that he is such an offensive player. I believe this has helped Griffen become the player he is today. This would help Higgins greatly but I think his lack of zip might expose him and the team a fair bit. The match committee must address this as sedat was hinting to, as the ball leaves our forward line 10 times faster than it gets there with Gia and Higgins in there at the same time.

[Murphy'sLore]

Not making excuses, but I would not be surprised if he is still struggling to stabilise his thyroid condition. This is an incredibly difficult thing to get right. Even to my untrained eye it seems he simply can't kick as far as he thinks he can (as others also observed) and muscle weakness is one of the symptoms of hyperthyroidism.

Having said that, finger pointing is not a recognised thyroid symptom. But he must be feeling incredibly frustrated atm.

[Scorlibo]

When you add the expectations of performance for each of these players Higgins would drop down that list. He is not fit and shouldn't be out there.

Expectations do not have any bearing on output.


Calls to trade Higgins are ridiculous. What is he 21/22?

Higgins is a player who is multi-skilled with loads of potential. Right now, there is a number of things wrong with his game including attitude.

But that's why we have a senior Coach and assistant Coaches together with a number of support staff including fitness and medical people.

It is their job to turn this bloke around. To give up and trade him would be a serious dereliction of duty. As a Club we should be better than that.

He has just turned 23, and I agree, to trade Higgins would be to give up a wonderful prospect.


Marc Murphy has regularly commented on his final year in TAC Cup, and that Higgins was the best midfielder in the competition that he had come up against. Higgins the midfielder...we used to drool over the prospect of Cooney, Griffen and Higgins leading our next midfield generation midfield 3 years ago. Nowadays Higgins could not run out of sight in a London fog.

If Higgins is to be retained on the list, he needs to have the best pre-season of his life and become an out-and-out midfielder. He needs to develop his tank to sustain repeated bursts over the course of 120 minutes - Swan was just another average half-forward 3 years ago and has transformed his game through sheer hard work. Higgins has the tools and the talent but he seriously needs to change his mindset if he is to genuinely improve.

I think he was on the verge of doing this this year. He had a good start to the year and was improving before injury hit. Rocket needs to give him more midfield time in my opinion, play him, Griffen, Cooney, Ward and Libba through the centre persistently and the results will come.


Like this post but it will not help this season. In the short term could we do what Carlton have done with Gibbs. Gibbs was a talented silky player that was just not doing enough. Match him up on one of the opposition guns and see if he can stop him. Maybe play him down back? If we are to play him he must be given a chance away from the half forward role.

We need people behind the ball to provide run and delivery. At least we know he can kick.

I would prefer him to be tried as a permanent midfielder with Boyd and Cross given roles down back, but he can definitely offer something from the back half as a designated kicker.

[chef]

Expectations do not have any bearing on output.



Does to me.

[Scorlibo]

Does to me.

So..Sam Reid gives more to the side than Callan Ward because he was taken 16 spots lower in the draft? Ryan Hargrave gives more to the side than Dale Morris because Dale is in the leadership group and Ryan is not? Daniel Cross is a better player than Adam Cooney because Adam has won a Brownlow?

Sorry chef but it's just a ridiculous way to look at things.

[chef]

So..Sam Reid gives more to the side than Callan Ward because he was taken 16 spots lower in the draft? Ryan Hargrave gives more to the side than Dale Morris because Dale is in the leadership group and Ryan is not? Daniel Cross is a better player than Adam Cooney because Adam has won a Brownlow?

Sorry chef but it's just a ridiculous way to look at things.

Lost me there. What you just said makes no sense(in more than one way) to what I was saying.

[Mofra]

Lost me there. What you just said makes no sense(in more than one way) to what I was saying.
Can you clarify what you meant? Cheers.

[w3design]

So..Sam Reid gives more to the side than Callan Ward because he was taken 16 spots lower in the draft? Ryan Hargrave gives more to the side than Dale Morris because Dale is in the leadership group and Ryan is not? Daniel Cross is a better player than Adam Cooney because Adam has won a Brownlow?

Sorry chef but it's just a ridiculous way to look at things.
I think the point is all about expectation relative to talent. This isn't to do with draft ranking. It's the god-given talent we all see. You've mentioned rightly enough that we are harder on Higgins than, say, Picken. We see Liam getting every ounce out of limited ability whereas we know what 10 or 12 quality possessions from Shaun could provide. If only we could somehow graft Higgins' skills and gifts onto, say, Daniel cross, what a footballer we would have.

He may be injured, he may be low on confidence, he may be sick to death of the wretched run he has had with injury which would break many spirits. Who really knows? But for me yesterday Shaun really veered into dangerous territory of the guy who just wouldn't buckle down and do the hard things and then, in self-pity, turned on his mates. I sit with some very fair minded patient fans and for the 1st time saw one of them really lose the plot, so disgusted and angry was he at a blatant decision by Shaun not to man up. We can't all be wrong at seeing these things. I don't want Shaun traded but he absolutely must get these traits out of his game.

[the banker]

Calls to trade Higgins are ridiculous. What is he 21/22?

Higgins is a player who is multi-skilled with loads of potential. Right now, there is a number of things wrong with his game including attitude.

But that's why we have a senior Coach and assistant Coaches together with a number of support staff including fitness and medical people.

It is their job to turn this bloke around. To give up and trade him would be a serious dereliction of duty. As a Club we should be better than that.

Is it a duty to maintain a list of non performers? I cannot remember one game when Shaun Higgins stamped his authority. Maybe a quarter here and a quarter there but he has never owned a game his whole time at the club in my recollection. He is a bit player and not a leader. Monfries level with seductve silky skills.

[chef]

Can you clarify what you meant? Cheers.

Maybe I worded it wrong.

My point was some players should have a higher expectation of performance placed on them and should be judged harder than others.

Fairly or unfairly I expect more from Higgins than I do from Reid.

[Ghost Dog]

all those saying Higgins should not be traded...
Really depends what we can get for him doesn't it?
If we can get a decent foward, I wouldn't mind him being traded at all.

otherwise. shave his head in pennance, pack him off to a lebanese boxing gym or somesuch.

Sedat uses Swan as an example of a very average midfielder who improved with hard work.
So, sleeve tattoos may also be on the cards. ^_^

[LostDoggy]

I am slowly losing patience with Higgins & i am leaning towards the trade talk as well.

His decline in speed seems to have happened fairly quickly, or wasn't he overly quick to start with?

The game against Collingwood a few seasons back i thought was the start of a long promising Bulldogs career, but he seems to have gone slightly backwards since then.

[ReLoad]

His groin is clearly shot to bits, The guy has no pace at all. I would love to see his beep test results and the sustained repetetive sprint times from the pre season, because he sure as heck isnt showing it on the ground.

GPS data anyone?

[Scorlibo]

I think the point is all about expectation relative to talent. This isn't to do with draft ranking. It's the god-given talent we all see. You've mentioned rightly enough that we are harder on Higgins than, say, Picken. We see Liam getting every ounce out of limited ability whereas we know what 10 or 12 quality possessions from Shaun could provide. If only we could somehow graft Higgins' skills and gifts onto, say, Daniel cross, what a footballer we would have.

Well draft ranking is the best measure of pure talent that I know of. I know exactly what you're talking about, but I can't see why it should affect comparisons between players purely in terms of what they give to the side.


Maybe I worded it wrong.

My point was some players should have a higher expectation of performance placed on them and should be judged harder than others.

Fairly or unfairly I expect more from Higgins than I do from Reid.

We all do. But my point is, even if Higgins plays under his expectations and Reid plays over his expectations, Higgins may still outperform Reid, and this is what matters at the selection table.

[Mantis]

His groin is clearly shot to bits, The guy has no pace at all. I would love to see his beep test results and the sustained repetetive sprint times from the pre season, because he sure as heck isnt showing it on the ground.

GPS data anyone?

I cannot believe this to be true.

[Topdog]

We all do. But my point is, even if Higgins plays under his expectations and Reid plays over his expectations, Higgins may still outperform Reid, and this is what matters at the selection table.

It should form part of selection table. Adhering to team instructions and rewarding effort should also be a consideration.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Here are 12 players who were worse than Higgins today:

Hall
Reid
Liberatore
Hill
Gilbee
Jones
Wood
Lake
Howard
Williams
Sherman
Wallis

Every one of the above players should be dropped ahead of Higgins.

You had been going ok here but I would Wood, Howard, Williams and Wallis ahead of Higgins, I think we just expect so much more from him that we can be harsh at times, For me i saw a lot more endeavor to pick up a man from most of the attached players mentioned.

[Scorlibo]

It should form part of selection table.

But why? Surely if you are selecting an ideal team to attain a win, you are selecting purely on output.


Adhering to team instructions and rewarding effort should also be a consideration.

Yes but we can't comment on either. I would be very surprised if Higgins, a very driven individual was not putting in just as much as everyone else. 'Effort' is hard to gauge in any instance.


You had been going ok here but I would Wood, Howard, Williams and Wallis ahead of Higgins, I think we just expect so much more from him that we can be harsh at times, For me i saw a lot more endeavor to pick up a man from most of the attached players mentioned.

The players you mentioned would be around the mark, but I believe Wood continued to make some poor decisions, Howard played well considering it was his first game but made as many skill errors as he did lovely passes, and Williams had to upset team structure to have an impact (although when he did go forward he played well). Wallis did not do any damage with his disposal.

[ratsmac]

We expect a lot from Higgins because he is apparently a leader at the club.

[Mofra]

Maybe I worded it wrong.

My point was some players should have a higher expectation of performance placed on them and should be judged harder than others.

Fairly or unfairly I expect more from Higgins than I do from Reid.
Cheers.

Does expectation have a bearing on team selection though?

Should (for example) we let less talented guys get games ahead of more talented guys, even if their output is lower, simply because expectations are less?

This would be unfair on the guys who are designated to make the play (generally our more talented types) - they have a harder role and are more harshly judged.
I'd prefer the output/what a player brings to the side be the over-riding factor.

[Mofra]

You had been going ok here but I would Wood, Howard, Williams and Wallis ahead of Higgins, I think we just expect so much more from him that we can be harsh at times, For me i saw a lot more endeavor to pick up a man from most of the attached players mentioned.
Bolded = arguably. Wood made plenty of errors but showed enough to show he should be persisted with, Howard faded (but again, showed signs and I hope he keeps his spot).
Wallis tackles hard, but was led to the ball all day and in time should be able to read the game much better.

If we are looking at dropping players, 1 tackle in 2011 Barry and Gilbee should be spelled before Higgins.

[Mantis]

If we are looking at dropping players, 1 tackle in 2011 Barry and Gilbee should be spelled before Higgins.

as well as??

[LostDoggy]

I feel that Shaun is not really a dilemma at all. If he is out of form he should be dropped or moved into defence to take the pressure of his performance.

What is a DILEMMA is the constant selection of under performing players and the automatic selection of players coming off injury.

This whole thread would be redundant if we had a policy of performance based selection.

Whether your a fan of Higgins or not he has not performed at the level required all year and does not deserve automatic selection.

[immortalmike]

as well as??

And then we'll change our names to the Western Seagulls?

[1eyedog]

How good has it been having Higgins back fully fit? He's moving well, making good decisions and his disposal by hand and foot have been exemplary. He's in great form atm let's hope he doesn't break down touch wood.

[Remi Moses]

Cops a lot of rubbishing, but I reckon he's been good so far.
Needs a good run at it.

[EasternWest]

Cops a lot of rubbishing, but I reckon he's been good so far.
Needs a good run at it.

To be fair, he earns a bit of said rubbishing.

I'm a critic, but I'm happy to admit he was one of our best yesterday. I even had him in my votes.

I hope we get to see him play all year unencumbered. Hell, I'd love to see him star. It'd be humble pie that I'd eat with a smile.

[Remi Moses]

To be fair, he earns a bit of said rubbishing.

I'm a critic, but I'm happy to admit he was one of our best yesterday. I even had him in my votes.

I hope we get to see him play all year unencumbered. Hell, I'd love to see him star. It'd be humble pie that I'd eat with a smile.

He's been disappointing , no doubt.
But he's hardly had a decent run at it either in fairness.

[lemmon]

I'd have him in the top 3 in the BnF across the first three rounds. Brings so much of what we need to the side

[GVGjr]

How good has it been having Higgins back fully fit? He's moving well, making good decisions and his disposal by hand and foot have been exemplary. He's in great form atm let's hope he doesn't break down touch wood.

Agreed, he is in good form and is an asset to the side. Seems to have lost 5 mtrs with his long kicking though.

[bulldogtragic]

He's got the talent to be one of our very best players. If he can stay fit and do all things the coaches (and members/fans) want him to get better at, we'll be a much better side for it. My hunch is he is earmarked to take over from Bobby of the HBF and kicking in.

[EasternWest]

He's been disappointing , no doubt.
But he's hardly had a decent run at it either in fairness.

Equally fair point.

[Hotdog60]

Not sold yet, agreed he has had a bad run and he did look a star in the making until he did his elbow all those years ago.
I still think he plays a bit too loose but if he can keep his body right who knows when the confidence builds.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Agreed, he is in good form and is an asset to the side. Seems to have lost 5 mtrs with his long kicking though.

I think this may be due to cutting some kilos. He looks a lot leaner than he did a few years ago, so he's probably lost a bit of strength, but it looks to have helped him because he is moving really well. Running on top of the ground and is pretty good in terms of agility, too.

He's progressing nicely. I've been a critic in the past, but he's had a good start to the season.

His defensive efforts and the contested side to his game have improved a fair bit - we've always known he has elite skills, so the two mixing together has produced some well rounded games.

[F'scary]

Higgins was one of the most prominent "went missings" in the second half against Richmond. I watched the replay. In the last quarter, I'm pretty sure he had one possession. He can be flashy, is very photogenic but he'll never be in the best 12 mid-sized players in our current side(Griffen, Libba, Cooney, Boyd, Murphy, Macrae, Dahlhaus, Wallis, Hunter, Picken, Giansiracusa, Stevens and Smith - oops that's 13 - proves the point). He is just a fringe player.

[ratsmac]

Higgins was one of the most prominent "went missings" in the second half against Richmond. I watched the replay. In the last quarter, I'm pretty sure he had one possession. He can be flashy, is very photogenic but he'll never be in the best 12 mid-sized players in our current side(Griffen, Libba, Cooney, Boyd, Murphy, Macrae, Dahlhaus, Wallis, Hunter, Picken, Giansiracusa, Stevens and Smith - oops that's 13 - proves the point). He is just a fringe player.

Sounds a bit harsh but I see your point.

Given that he was given the ok by the docs only about a month and a half ago to join in with full training I thought he has slotted back into the team quite nicely. He has missed a lot of footy. Griffen missed the practice matches only and has struggled. I think Higgins is tracking pretty good at this point of the season. That said, like F'scray pointed out, we can't afford him to go missing when the game heats up.

[Greystache]

I've been happy with his 3 games so far. He's always going to parts of his game that are lacking, and he's never going to be the player I thought he could be, but he has good skills and generally makes good decisions, and that's something we need.

I was surprised to see yesterday he's played 112 games, that's not bad for a guy who just turned 26.

[lemmon]

I've been happy with his 3 games so far. He's always going to parts of his game that are lacking, and he's never going to be the player I thought he could be, but he has good skills and generally makes good decisions, and that's something we need.

I was surprised to see yesterday he's played 112 games, that's not bad for a guy who just turned 26.
Probably shows how promising his early years were. Was being talked about as the best of his draft with his class across half forward

[bulldogtragic]

I've been happy with his 3 games so far. He's always going to parts of his game that are lacking, and he's never going to be the player I thought he could be, but he has good skills and generally makes good decisions, and that's something we need.

I was surprised to see yesterday he's played 112 games, that's not bad for a guy who just turned 26.

By times end, hopefully he's a 200+ game bulldogs player. Maybe he'll be in the draft Bulldogs Team of the Century, like others who could now be nominated for that squad in the Team of the Century sticky thread, if some more nominations come in... :)

[Bulldog4life]

I think this may be due to cutting some kilos. He looks a lot leaner than he did a few years ago, so he's probably lost a bit of strength, but it looks to have helped him because he is moving really well. Running on top of the ground and is pretty good in terms of agility, too.

He's progressing nicely. I've been a critic in the past, but he's had a good start to the season.

His defensive efforts and the contested side to his game have improved a fair bit - we've always known he has elite skills, so the two mixing together has produced some well rounded games.

This is what I have noticed most of all this year. I was impressed seeing him under a number of packs too.

[Scorlibo]

Higgins was one of the most prominent "went missings" in the second half against Richmond. I watched the replay. In the last quarter, I'm pretty sure he had one possession. He can be flashy, is very photogenic but he'll never be in the best 12 mid-sized players in our current side(Griffen, Libba, Cooney, Boyd, Murphy, Macrae, Dahlhaus, Wallis, Hunter, Picken, Giansiracusa, Stevens and Smith - oops that's 13 - proves the point). He is just a fringe player.

He's already comfortably amongst the best mid sized players! Time for the Higgins haters to put a sock in it I reckon :rolleyes:. He's a very, very good player who just needs a good run at it without getting injured - simple as that!

[Remi Moses]

The whole side went missing when they got that run on.
I still think the signs are promising, but it's fraught with trepidation.

[Bulldog Joe]

He's already comfortably amongst the best mid sized players! Time for the Higgins haters to put a sock in it I reckon :rolleyes:. He's a very, very good player who just needs a good run at it without getting injured - simple as that!

Wholly agree Scorlibo.

A lot of the negatives that fans have on Higgins come from when he was trying to play through a succession of injuries particularly when he had OP. At that time he was simply unable to do what was required.

[EasternWest]

Wholly agree Scorlibo.

A lot of the negatives that fans have on Higgins come from when he was trying to play through a succession of injuries particularly when he had OP. At that time he was simply unable to do what was required.

That's a cop out though.

It's his refusal to do some things when he IS able to do what's required that have been the knock on him.

I'm happy, and have always been, happy to acknowledge that I am a critic of him. But that doesn't mean I don't want him to overcome/succeed because I do.

I think Higgins apologists need to drop the "leave Britney alone" position as much as the rabid critics need to drop the Higgins scapegoating.

[azabob]

Higgins certainly is an interesting character. I do wonder how popular he is with his teamates on and off the field. When Williams got outmarked for the hundredth time in the last quarter all defenders (Morris, Murphy, Wood and Picken I think) went to him to give him a show of support and or encourgement bar Higgins.
Higgins just walked straight past him and the other players and started talking to another play about the defensive set up for the next centre bounce.

I know a few posters have a link inside the club, I'd love to know is he popular or an outsider?

[LostDoggy]

I think Higgins has been very good so far this season given he missed all of the last year and most of pre-season. His defensive efforts have improved significantly and his kicking has been a standout. Bloody disappointing to still hear supporters bagging him on the weekend especially considering it was probably our best win under Macca.

[Mofra]

One of the highest tallies of "pressure acts" in the team this season by all accounts. Makes such a difference when he gets a pre-season into him.

[Ozza]

I think this may be due to cutting some kilos. He looks a lot leaner than he did a few years ago, so he's probably lost a bit of strength, but it looks to have helped him because he is moving really well. Running on top of the ground and is pretty good in terms of agility, too.

The loss of some kilo's seems to have really helped him. His movement is better.
In terms of his kicking, I think we will find that he will gather some more metres as the season goes on, and strength and flexibility continue to improve.

[Scorlibo]

That's a cop out though.

It's his refusal to do some things when he IS able to do what's required that have been the knock on him.

I'm happy, and have always been, happy to acknowledge that I am a critic of him. But that doesn't mean I don't want him to overcome/succeed because I do.

I think Higgins apologists need to drop the "leave Britney alone" position as much as the rabid critics need to drop the Higgins scapegoating.

I appreciate what you are getting at (and acknowledge that, as with any player, he has had deficiencies in his game), but I object to "he'll never be in our best 12 mid sized players". That to me is just so far from reality that I can't help but interject. Talk to anybody from outside fan circles and they are a big wrap for Shaun Higgins.

Were you a critic of his in 2009?

[ledge]

I think the common thought of Higgins through fans is he is a gun but injuries have held him back.
Simple as that.

[Bulldog4life]

Higgins certainly is an interesting character. I do wonder how popular he is with his teamates on and off the field.
I know a few posters have a link inside the club, I'd love to know is he popular or an outsider?


Meet Sean and Griff at the Peninsula Club last year at a function. Griff said they were mates off the field and were in business together and were currently developing properties in Geelong together.

[Maddog37]

I think Higgins is finding a much better balance in his game between defence and attack. He seems to be happy to just play his role and"go" when it's his turn.

If, and it's a big if, he has a good run with injuries, I would expect some top quality football befitting a player that could be rated as one of our best half dozen on the list.

[EasternWest]

Error

[EasternWest]

I appreciate what you are getting at (and acknowledge that, as with any player, he has had deficiencies in his game), but I object to "he'll never be in our best 12 mid sized players". That to me is just so far from reality that I can't help but interject. Talk to anybody from outside fan circles and they are a big wrap for Shaun Higgins.

Were you a critic of his in 2009?

Fair enough. I think when fit (and on that note, he actually does look pretty fit right now) he is definitely and easily in our best 22.

Was I critical in 2009? Yes and no. I thought he looked like a good player but I was concerned he didn't work defensively hard enough. I never really saw what other people seem to see in him, maybe that's it. I've never really seen him as a workd beater. He's a good player, his skills are very good and his speed is average - that's about the summation of it for me.

All that being said, apart from going missing in the third (and he wasn't really alone, so I'm not hanging him for that), I was very satisfied with his game on the weekend. I was satisfied because he got the ball and used it pretty well, but I was more pleased that he always seemed to be getting a hand in, or thereabouts when we didn't have the ball.

I just don't have high expectations of him, but he did his job pretty well against Richmond, and that's all I care about.

[Ghost Dog]

That's a cop out though.

It's his refusal to do some things when he IS able to do what's required that have been the knock on him.

I'm happy, and have always been, happy to acknowledge that I am a critic of him. But that doesn't mean I don't want him to overcome/succeed because I do.

I think Higgins apologists need to drop the "leave Britney alone" position as much as the rabid critics need to drop the Higgins scapegoating.

I'm not sure how well Shaun would take being compared to a female popstar. And it's Missy Higgins if you please ^_^

[azabob]

Meet Sean and Griff at the Peninsula Club last year at a function. Griff said they were mates off the field and were in business together and were currently developing properties in Geelong together.

Thanks B4L.

[EasternWest]

I'm not sure how well Shaun would take being compared to a female popstar. And it's Missy Higgins if you please ^_^

I am aware of exactly what you did there. You're not as think as you clever you are.

[Ghost Dog]

Ah come on. Just mucking around. Did you note the smiley face? :)

[boydogs]

I never really saw what other people seem to see in him, maybe that's it. I've never really seen him as a workd beater. He's a good player, his skills are very good and his speed is average - that's about the summation of it for me.

His forward craft is very good - knowing when to lead, body positioning, overhead marking, kicking for goal

[EasternWest]

Ah come on. Just mucking around. Did you note the smiley face? :)

Yeah of course you were. I was just playing along. Apologies if that didn't come through.

His forward craft is very good - knowing when to lead, body positioning, overhead marking, kicking for goal

Yeah he's definitely got smarts, I'm just not wowed by him.

[Ghost Dog]

Yeah of course you were. I was just playing along. Apologies if that didn't come through.


Yeah he's definitely got smarts, I'm just not wowed by him.
Has often had his turn as a whipping boy on these boards, since way way back. Brendan is a big fan of Shaun so it gives me hope he's doing the right things at training.


We need his polish.

[F'scary]

On his much vaunted kicking: the two set shots he had for goal were a bit tragic. Couldn't make the distance.

[bornadog]

On his much vaunted kicking: the two set shots he had for goal were a bit tragic. Couldn't make the distance.

He was outside 50 so needed to kick at least 60metres. Not many players can do that from a standing start

[1eyedog]

On his much vaunted kicking: the two set shots he had for goal were a bit tragic. Couldn't make the distance.

He must have forgotten his cape on those two occasions

[Scorlibo]

Fair enough. I think when fit (and on that note, he actually does look pretty fit right now) he is definitely and easily in our best 22.

Was I critical in 2009? Yes and no. I thought he looked like a good player but I was concerned he didn't work defensively hard enough. I never really saw what other people seem to see in him, maybe that's it. I've never really seen him as a workd beater. He's a good player, his skills are very good and his speed is average - that's about the summation of it for me.

All that being said, apart from going missing in the third (and he wasn't really alone, so I'm not hanging him for that), I was very satisfied with his game on the weekend. I was satisfied because he got the ball and used it pretty well, but I was more pleased that he always seemed to be getting a hand in, or thereabouts when we didn't have the ball.

I just don't have high expectations of him, but he did his job pretty well against Richmond, and that's all I care about.

I remember watching a game against Hawthorn mid-2009 where we comprehensively embarrassed them. Watching Shaun Higgins in the first half of that match was delightful, he was a young emerging player brimming with confidence and he could do no wrong. Maybe not a world beater but a complete player - strong in the contest, silky skills and exemplary decision making. I've never seen a better Bulldogs performance than that night. I really hope he can return to be that kind of player for us, but also concede that maybe times are different now and that maybe he was the icing on the cake in 2009, it's hard to say. But you're right that so long as he's playing his role for the team, that's all that can be expected.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

He was outside 50 so needed to kick at least 60metres. Not many players can do that from a standing start

Higgins to me looks better suited in defence, where his good disposal and reading the play would be an asset in providing better delivery into the forward line.

[Ozza]

Bump.

This bloke is going very well. Since his debut (round 9 - 2006) - he has now played 116 of a possible 185 games (62.7%). And I think its pretty clear that if he gets the combination of a full pre-season and then continuity in his footy - and he is a very good footballer.

At 26 years of age - you would think that a fit Shaun Higgins' best 2-4 years of footy with be from right now. Lets hope he can stay on the park.

[bornadog]

When he gets the ball, you can tell from the way he moves he is all class.

I have enjoyed watching him this season and lets hope he doesn't sustain any injuries.

[westdog54]

When he gets the ball, you can tell from the way he moves he is all class.

I have enjoyed watching him this season and lets hope he doesn't sustain any injuries.

Saturday's game was the first I've really watched from start to finish and he was really cutting Essendon to ribbons through the middle with his poise and delivery.

Really excited.

[lemmon]

Best kick on the list. Can throw efficiency stats at me but he doesn't rack up those useless fifty metre bombs that are classified as effective, he sizzles in a pass to a leading forward that the only other player on our list could make is Murphy. Still love his midfield potential

[Happy Days]

Best kick on the list. Can throw efficiency stats at me but he doesn't rack up those useless fifty metre bombs that are classified as effective, he sizzles in a pass to a leading forward that the only other player on our list could make is Murphy. Still love his midfield potential

Agreed.

That kick to Dahlhaus last week where he kicked him open and got him a set shot? That's some Peyton Manning level stuff. No one else on the list could do that.

We need to keep getting him the ball as much as possible like Hawthorn do with Suckling.

[Greystache]

Agreed.

That kick to Dahlhaus last week where he kicked him open and got him a set shot? That's some Peyton Manning level stuff. No one else on the list could do that.

We need to keep getting him the ball as much as possible like Hawthorn do with Suckling.

And ideally further up the ground. He's probably limited due to his lack of tank, but we have so few who can deliver the ball well into the forward 50m we should be trying to make a focus of getting in the hands of those who can whenever possible.

[bornadog]

And ideally further up the ground. He's probably limited due to his lack of tank, but we have so few who can deliver the ball well into the forward 50m we should be trying to make a focus of getting in the hands of those who can whenever possible.

A couple of times in the Essendon match he had the ball, looked up and there was no one to kick to in the forward 50, so he just bombed it in.

His delivery is generally good, but he needs support from the forward line as well.

[westdog54]

Agreed.

That kick to Dahlhaus last week where he kicked him open and got him a set shot? That's some Peyton Manning level stuff. No one else on the list could do that.

We need to keep getting him the ball as much as possible like Hawthorn do with Suckling.

Peyton Manning is a good comparison for the quality of that pass. It was surgical precision and tge result was an undroppable mark followed by an unmissable goal. I was applauding from my couch.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Has been very good.

Ball use is excellent, agree with the sentiments above. I would like to see him push up into the midfield/half forward at times (such as last quarter v Essendon).

Have loved his improved intensity at the contest - he's a more well rounded player than he ever has been.

[KT31]

One of the shining lights of the season, we persisted and he has repaid the faith we are a far better side with Higgins in it.
It was a nervous moment on the weekend when he went down.

[Templeton31]

Have bagged him for a long time as a "March Champion". Seems to making the progression to contributing in the season, not just the pre season. Would possible be in the top 5 of Club b&f at moment?

[azabob]

Great season by Higgins so far. He actually looks like he is again carrying an injury but he is playing through it and still deliverying.

[stefoid]

Half back might be his natural position. Has he had an opponent or been playing as loose man in defence?

[1eyedog]

That 50+ metre goal was epic as well. Nailed it. Who said he has lost penetration with his kicking?

[Cyberdoggie]

A couple of times in the Essendon match he had the ball, looked up and there was no one to kick to in the forward 50, so he just bombed it in.

His delivery is generally good, but he needs support from the forward line as well.

From memory when we were moving the ball better in the first half he had very little of it but when the game locked down and we stopped running the ball it ended up in his hands.

Problem with Higgins is he can't run the ball out. So many times he would see no option and instead of running through the space and drawing a player he just casually kicks it to a short option and then looks for a handball receive but the opposition know this and just swamp the guy with the ball. When that fails it's a long bomb down the line to one of our non contested marking talls.

[Throughandthrough]

do i get a gold star for my 50th mention that I caught a Taxi with Higgo one day? And he paid? #topbloke

[Scorlibo]

Didn't get a single coaches' vote. Surprising.

[bornadog]

Listen to Higgo here:

https://audioboo.fm/boos/2186159-shaun-higgins-on-crocmedia-sportsday-wednesday-22-may-2014

[azabob]

Listen to Higgo here:

https://audioboo.fm/boos/2186159-shaun-higgins-on-crocmedia-sportsday-wednesday-22-may-2014

Thanks BAD

[jeemak]

Thanks BAD.