Leadership Group are they up to It

[bornadog]

We have had a lot of discussion in many threads whether our leadership group is up to it and do they show leadership qualities.

To help the discussion:

What is a Leader

A leader is a person who guides others toward a common goal, showing the way by example, and creating an environment in which other team members feel actively involved in the entire process. A leader is not the boss of the team but, instead, the person that is committed to carrying out the mission of the Venture.

Strong Qualities a Leader may have.

* Good Listener
* Focused
* Organised
* Available
* Includes Others
* Decisive
* Confident


This could be the most important characteristic of a leader

Confident:

If you don’t believe in yourself and the success of your Venture, no one else will. Show others that you are dedicated, intelligent, and proud of what you are doing.

Some of these are carried out off field and some on field. Do we feel our leadership group has these attributes? A lot is really perception as we don't know these guys personally.

[FrediKanoute]

The way I would put it is what does the current group lack athat Johnno didn't......

[MrMahatma]

Have we ever had a leadership group that was "up to it"? How do you score leaders? Flags? Wins? Off field behaviour?

?

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Have we ever had a leadership group that was "up to it"? How do you score leaders? Flags? Wins? Off field behaviour?

?

I think Off field behavior has been OK, this is why "leaders" are more often older guys not likely to want to go out and play up.

Over the last 4 years we have had a good win/loss ratio but have failed in the big games...did our leaders let us down or did we accept we had done enough?

Flags are like gold so this is not something I would put as a pass mark.

When it's all said and done I think leadership is from the top down, starting with Smorgan, I believe we have good leadership from the top down to the senior coach, under this I have concerns, I don't see much from the assistant coaches and feel they don't have the teeth or the profiles to demand respect Dean, Williams and German don't instill me full of confidence.

Then for the playing group, last year we had a thread and I said at the time i didn't want Cooney in the group and that we should have had Barry, i still think this was a better option and my ideal leadership group would have been Boyd, Morris, Hall & Cross. These guys are what we need as an example and let the others just work on their games. I think Boyd is ok but we are going to have an issue once he stops as we will be looking at one of our young Pups to take over from him as i cant see anyone to bridge that gap.

[bornadog]

Then for the playing group, last year we had a thread and I said at the time i didn't want Cooney in the group and that we should have had Barry, i still think this was a better option and my ideal leadership group would have been Boyd, Morris, Hall & Cross. These guys are what we need as an example and let the others just work on their games. I think Boyd is ok but we are going to have an issue once he stops as we will be looking at one of our young Pups to take over from him as i cant see anyone to bridge that gap.

One of the attributes of a leader is showing by example. Boyd on and off the field is a true leader, in my books. Off the field his training is second to none and demands high standards which is great for any new player coming into the team. On field he has his critics due to his defensive side, but he is a high possession gatherer and really puts in 110%.

He is ranked number one in the AFL for clearances and also number one for disposals . He may not possess the silky skills of a Cooney, but he is a leader by example.

[Mantis]

One of the attributes of a leader is showing by example. Boyd on and off the field is a true leader, in my books. Off the field his training is second to none and demands high standards which is great for any new player coming into the team. On field he has his critics due to his defensive side, but he is a high possession gatherer and really puts in 110%.

He is ranked number one in the AFL for clearances and also number one for disposals . He may not possess the silky skills of a Cooney, but he is a leader by example.

I would think the deficiencies in this defensive side make him only a reasonable leader. His absolute refusal to find a man when the opposition had the ball on Sunday was horrible. I watched him on a number of occassions and he was walking while his opponent ran to make position... WALKING!!

If I was a young member in the team and saw my captain walking around the ground and not working hard to guard an opponent why would I do any different?

[Ghost Dog]

I would think the deficiencies in this defensive side make him only a reasonable leader. His absolute refusal to find a man when the opposition had the ball on Sunday was horrible. I watched him on a number of occassions and he was walking while his opponent ran to make position... WALKING!!

If I was a young member in the team and saw my captain walking around the ground and not working hard to guard an opponent why would I do any different?

Mantis, did you see this on more than one occaision? I wasn't at the ground
astounding

[Maddog37]

I am more worried about our general fitness as a group than our leadership. Boyd Cross Morris etc are all absolutely wonderful examples of hard work and discipline if not charismatic follow me types.

Why do we look so slow? why do we have no explosiveness and repeat sprint efforts. We constantly look like a Melbourne cup horse having a first up run over 1200 metres.

[bornadog]

I would think the deficiencies in this defensive side make him only a reasonable leader. His absolute refusal to find a man when the opposition had the ball on Sunday was horrible. I watched him on a number of occasions and he was walking while his opponent ran to make position... WALKING!!

If I was a young member in the team and saw my captain walking around the ground and not working hard to guard an opponent why would I do any different?

Is it a refusal to chase or is he just absolutely stuffed from running so much?

Smorgon spoke at a business luncheon last week and he said due to the 3 man bench, players are now taking longer to recover after a game. Cross, who is one of our fittest players use to take one day to recover, now it takes two. I know all teams are working under the same rule, but perhaps Boyd had run so much that he could only walk and was just resting for those moments you saw him.

We like to criticize these players like Boyd, Cross but what backup do they have in the midfield. Boyd picks up 30 possessions every week but he has to do it with little backup. Griffen also picks up a mountain of disposals but it ends there. Look at the Collingwood mids, Pendulbary, Swan, Ball, Thomas all had 30 plus disposals last week. When one is resting the other ones take over.

If he was just refusing to run because he couldn't be bothered then he should be dropped.

[The Pie Man]

I would think the deficiencies in this defensive side make him only a reasonable leader. His absolute refusal to find a man when the opposition had the ball on Sunday was horrible. I watched him on a number of occassions and he was walking while his opponent ran to make position... WALKING!!

If I was a young member in the team and saw my captain walking around the ground and not working hard to guard an opponent why would I do any different?

That's a massive concern - one thing that does come to mind is what are the players instructions when manning a particular zone? If they get sucked into an area by a leading/running player, does that then open up the space behind them, leaving the structure compromised?

I honestly don't know - and I share your concerns Mantis, I'm just curious.

[Greystache]

I would think the deficiencies in this defensive side make him only a reasonable leader. His absolute refusal to find a man when the opposition had the ball on Sunday was horrible. I watched him on a number of occassions and he was walking while his opponent ran to make position... WALKING!!

If I was a young member in the team and saw my captain walking around the ground and not working hard to guard an opponent why would I do any different?

He's also one of the players I was referring to in the match day thread. When the opposition have an overlap Boyd sprints as hard as he can to get the closest player who'll be out of the chain after the first possession, making a team mate do the hard running to pick up the second player despite Boyd being in a better position to get to them. His does this to save himself hard defensive running despite knowing full well the opposition will run the ball away.

That's not how a leader plays, that's someone who sees defence as an inconvenience that should be performed with as little effort as possible, which is not a good example for the young players.

[Mantis]

Is it a refusal to chase or is he just absolutely stuffed from running so much?

Smorgon spoke at a business luncheon last week and he said due to the 3 man bench, players are now taking longer to recover after a game. Cross, who is one of our fittest players use to take one day to recover, now it takes two. I know all teams are working under the same rule, but perhaps Boyd had run so much that he could only walk and was just resting for those moments you saw him.

We like to criticize these players like Boyd, Cross but what backup do they have in the midfield. Boyd picks up 30 possessions every week but he has to do it with little backup. Griffen also picks up a mountain of disposals but it ends there. Look at the Collingwood mids, Pendulbary, Swan, Ball, Thomas all had 30 plus disposals last week. When one is resting the other ones take over.

If he was just refusing to run because he couldn't be bothered then he should be dropped.

When the opposition are making fun of you like they did with there ball movement on Sunday you just have to keep running. I fully understand the game has changed and the players are suffering because of it, but it isn't good enough to allow the opposition to play keepings off like they did and when your leaders aren't doing all they can to guard an opponent then something has to change.

As far as running to the point of exhaustion and being unable to run anymore - well I don't cop that because our players (leaders included) had no problems running at full tilt when we had possession, they just didn't do it defensively which is when it counts, or atleast it did against Hawthorn.

[LostDoggy]

Simple answer NO they are not up too it including Boyd as captain.weak leader ship group.

[bornadog]

When the opposition are making fun of you like they did with there ball movement on Sunday you just have to keep running. I fully understand the game has changed and the players are suffering because of it, but it isn't good enough to allow the opposition to play keepings off like they did and when your leaders aren't doing all they can to guard an opponent then something has to change.

As far as running to the point of exhaustion and being unable to run anymore - well I don't cop that because our players (leaders included) had no problems running at full tilt when we had possession, they just didn't do it defensively which is when it counts, or at least it did against Hawthorn.

I am not saying your wrong but I am not saying your right. There are two sides to every story and its easy for us sitting in the stands and bagging players.

The keepings off style can only be beaten by every player picking up a man, and our forwards didn't do that, they were trying to cover further down the field. The Hawks are using the keeping off style, with accurate kicking to try and break the forward press. - refer this article its interesting.
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/kicking-the-habit-20110530-1fcqa.html

Personally, I think Boyd is a good leader, however, I will say on Sunday it wasn't his best game this year.

[bornadog]

Simple answer NO they are not up too it including Boyd as captain.weak leader ship group.

You must have a reason for saying this?

[w3design]

You must have a reason for saying this?

They must have said something bad about Lake ;)

[lemmon]

I remember reading somewhere in relation to MS Dhoni actually, that what makes a good leader and captain is that they don't pass pressure downwards. Couldn't say that with any honesty when talking about a number of our leaders in my opinion.

[Rance Fan]

I think we dont have the quality of Collingwoods midfielders currently.

Yes currently Cross, Boyd and Griffen may regularly get near 30 possesions. They are often ordinary disopsals though. Partly cos they are pressured and dont have the support.
We have some guys who try hard in the midfield like Ward and Picken but they rarely hit the 30 plus possesions and they at times dont have silky skills, they often bomb it!
A few young kids like Wallis and Libba who are just learning and maybe get 20 possesions at best
Then a few guys that are underdone, injured, lazy or maybe just not up to playin midfield..??
Cooney, Gia, Higgins not really played midfield at a decent level this season!
No wonder we are struggling!
Then just look at our gameplan or lack of!
Hawks showed us how it should be done. Short sharp passes with great movement up ahead.

[w3design]

I recall in the drawn GF last year watching Lenny Hayes who is usually not a long penetrating kick unleash a 50 metre goal at a critical point of the last qtr. You could see he WANTED to take that kick, personally, desperately almost, craved the responsibility. And I wondered then if we had even one player on our list who could from sheer will and drive do that.

Anyway Lenny Hayes that day was everything I would want in a club leader.

Our guys are good blokes, they want to set a good culture, they are articulate, represent the club well, and tick all those boxes, but I'm not sure who could do an act of inspiration like that.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

One of the attributes of a leader is showing by example. Boyd on and off the field is a true leader, in my books. Off the field his training is second to none and demands high standards which is great for any new player coming into the team. On field he has his critics due to his defensive side, but he is a high possession gatherer and really puts in 110%.

He is ranked number one in the AFL for clearances and also number one for disposals . He may not possess the silky skills of a Cooney, but he is a leader by example.

I agree with you bornadog, I think Boyd is the right man for the job but cant help but think we have over complicated it with everyone else in the group, we just need Boyd, Morris, Hall & Cross, BUT i feel the issue is post Boyd more than what we have now, I dont like Cooney, Higgins & Ward as options as leaders of the Bulldogs.

[FrediKanoute]

I am more worried about our general fitness as a group than our leadership. Boyd Cross Morris etc are all absolutely wonderful examples of hard work and discipline if not charismatic follow me types.

Why do we look so slow? why do we have no explosiveness and repeat sprint efforts. We constantly look like a Melbourne cup horse having a first up run over 1200 metres.

I think this as something to do with the sub rule and the way we geared up our guys to play over the last few years.

[bornadog]

I agree with you bornadog, I think Boyd is the right man for the job but cant help but think we have over complicated it with everyone else in the group, we just need Boyd, Morris, Hall & Cross, BUT i feel the issue is post Boyd more than what we have now, I dont like Cooney, Higgins & Ward as options as leaders of the Bulldogs.

Post Boyd doesn't look too good, unless Griffen comes out of his shell abit. He is a very quiet type of person and doesn't say too much.

[Dry Rot]

I recall in the drawn GF last year watching Lenny Hayes who is usually not a long penetrating kick unleash a 50 metre goal at a critical point of the last qtr. You could see he WANTED to take that kick, personally, desperately almost, craved the responsibility. And I wondered then if we had even one player on our list who could from sheer will and drive do that.

Anyway Lenny Hayes that day was everything I would want in a club leader.

Our guys are good blokes, they want to set a good culture, they are articulate, represent the club well, and tick all those boxes, but I'm not sure who could do an act of inspiration like that.

Absolutely agree. Our leaders and leadership group post Chris Grant have been far from top shelf. No Hodges or Hayes in the red and white and blue IMO. Morris and Griff would come closest.

[Desipura]

Post Boyd doesn't look too good, unless Griffen comes out of his shell abit. He is a very quiet type of person and doesn't say too much.

I disagree, we have potential leaders in Ward, Roughy, Jones, Libba and Wallis

[always right]

I disagree, we have potential leaders in Ward, Roughy, Jones, Libba and Wallis

Just curious....what leadership traits do you think Jones and Roughy have? Simply pure talent doesn't count.

[Mantis]

Just curious....what leadership traits do you think Jones and Roughy have? Simply pure talent doesn't count.

Ward & Libba could also be grouped in this category.

[Desipura]

Just curious....what leadership traits do you think Jones and Roughy have? Simply pure talent doesn't count.
Jones has a presence about him, sets a good example with his desire to tackle. Once he builds his confidence up and feels comfortable playing at this level. I think you will see him flourish as a leader.

Roughy hits the contest hard, again he is only young but I see him marshalling the onballers at the centre square. Similar to Jones in that once he has played continuous footy, you will see him develop other parts of his game ie marking.

Libba & Wallis from all reports leave no stone unturned with their preparation to training. They play an inside type role which is what I look for in a leader. They will become leaders in the future I have no doubt.

Ward is similar to the above, his ability to put his body on the line must make others stand taller. Once he gets consistency in his games, I see him as a replacement for Boyd.

[Topdog]

Just curious....what leadership traits do you think Jones and Roughy have? Simply pure talent doesn't count.

Personally besides being a hard trainer I don't see any in Boyd.

[Ghost Dog]

Personally besides being a hard trainer I don't see any in Boyd.

starting to come around to your way of thinking Topdog

[always right]

Personally besides being a hard trainer I don't see any in Boyd.

So other than training hard, you see zero leadership traits whatsover? I know he has some shortcomings but I find this statement over the top and disrespectful.

Immediately off the top of my head.....he puts his head over the ball, wins contested footy, consistently performs week after week, never gives up, and plays through injury. There are five traits I would see as desirable in a leader at our football club. He lets himself down with his defensive efforts but to completely ignore his other qualities is rediculous.

[LostDoggy]

So other than training hard, you see zero leadership traits whatsover? I know he has some shortcomings but I find this statement over the top and disrespectful.

Immediately off the top of my head.....he puts his head over the ball, wins contested footy, consistently performs week after week, never gives up, and plays through injury. There are five traits I would see as desirable in a leader at our football club. He lets himself down with his defensive efforts but to completely ignore his other qualities is rediculous.
Hee Here !

[LostDoggy]

So the club made a mistake in naming Boyd our new captain?

We seem to be going around in circles in recent weeks with subjects, but that's forum life, so here goes.

Boyd was my choice. I'm interested to know who (at this point in our season) would have been better?

These aren't all my opinons, some are fact, some are peoples perception also:

Cooney - injured and down on form
Cross - playign days numbered and seen as the same type of player as Boyd
Lake - injured and down on form
Gia - wrong side of 200 games - debate always rages
Higgins - injured and down on form, poor attitude
Murphy - great season so far but always waiting for his knees to give way
Ward - too young, unsettled possibly
Griffen - great so far
Morris - likewise with Griffen
Who outside of this group would have been relistic? Nobody. Who would has had a better presence on field to date this season, apart from Boyd? Nobody.

Few facts from Footywire for Boyd in 2011:

2011 Statistical Rankings

Ranked 2nd in Total Inside 50s
Ranked 10th in Total Goal Assists
Ranked 2nd in Total Kicks
Ranked 12th in Total Handballs
Ranked 1st in Total Disposals
Ranked 4th in Total Supercoach Score
Ranked 2nd in Total Dreamteam Score
Ranked 4th in Inside 50s Per Game
Ranked 17th in Goal Assists Per Game
Ranked 2nd in Kicks Per Game
Ranked 15th in Handballs Per Game
Ranked 1st in Disposals Per Game
Ranked 5th in Supercoach Score Per Game
Ranked 2nd in Dreamteam Score Per Game

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-western-bulldogs--matthew-boyd

[bornadog]

I disagree, we have potential leaders in Ward, Roughy, Jones, Libba and Wallis

Agree but they are young. We need a leader from the mid 20's players who will be ready when Boyd retires. Unless we jump the mid group and have a young Captain.

[Desipura]

Agree but they are young. We need a leader from the mid 20's players who will be ready when Boyd retires. Unless we jump the mid group and have a young Captain.

Why mid 20s? Ward is currently 21 yo, he will be 23-24 yo by the time Boydy is ready to hand it over. I think it's a good potential situation to be in, with leaders at the right time of their careers in that they would have played enough games to have established themselves, and have a number of years ahead of them to leave a legacy to the younger guys on the list

[w3design]

Boyd is a fantastic player and has so many admirable qualities as a player and as role model for footballers everywhere. His defensive efforts and his propensity to give teammates a spray are less admirable qualities, glass houses an all that.
I think the wider question though is not Boyd and his failings but that of how does having a "leadership group" affect MC selections and younger players willingness and ability to take responsibility and initiative in the Leading Teams environment. How are the team dynamics affected by having a "leadership group?" When players in the "leadership group" are constantly backed to lead by their selection in the team what happens when they don't lead? Who has the responsibility to pick up the slack and is empowered to do so? Higgens giving Liberatore a spray is probably a good example of why having a "leadership group" is not always a positive thing.

[Topdog]

So other than training hard, you see zero leadership traits whatsover? I know he has some shortcomings but I find this statement over the top and disrespectful.

Immediately off the top of my head.....he puts his head over the ball, wins contested footy, consistently performs week after week, never gives up, and plays through injury. There are five traits I would see as desirable in a leader at our football club. He lets himself down with his defensive efforts but to completely ignore his other qualities is rediculous.

Yep but when you add in he is selfish and unwilling to man up it negates the getting the ball bit IMO.

I was saying this last year aswell so this isn't a all is doomed approach from me. and when I have met Boyd he appeared to be a super person to me, I just think he is not a leader that will drag a group across the line. I recognise I am in the minority on this.

[Ghost Dog]

Yep but when you add in he is selfish and unwilling to man up it negates the getting the ball bit IMO.

I was saying this last year aswell so this isn't a all is doomed approach from me. and when I have met Boyd he appeared to be a super person to me, I just think he is not a leader that will drag a group across the line. I recognise I am in the minority on this.

someone remind me why Ryan Griffen was never in the mix to be captain? didn't want to be?

I love the way he drags himself out of tackles and keeps on chugging.

[A dogs life]

Yep but when you add in he is selfish and unwilling to man up it negates the getting the ball bit IMO.

I was saying this last year aswell so this isn't a all is doomed approach from me. and when I have met Boyd he appeared to be a super person to me, I just think he is not a leader that will drag a group across the line. I recognise I am in the minority on this.

That you are!

[chef]

That you are!

Nah, I agree with topdog.

[KT31]

Personally besides being a hard trainer I don't see any in Boyd.

You have got to be kidding, once a rookie and made it to club captain, Boyd has led from the front and is in our top four players this season.

[jeemak]

When the opposition are making fun of you like they did with there ball movement on Sunday you just have to keep running. I fully understand the game has changed and the players are suffering because of it, but it isn't good enough to allow the opposition to play keepings off like they did and when your leaders aren't doing all they can to guard an opponent then something has to change.

As far as running to the point of exhaustion and being unable to run anymore - well I don't cop that because our players (leaders included) had no problems running at full tilt when we had possession, they just didn't do it defensively which is when it counts, or atleast it did against Hawthorn.

I think it's an attitude thing that affects us just as much offensively as it does defensively.

I know our midfielders (flankers included) run forward, but they don't spread very well. It takes a lot of effort to spread quickly after a contested situation, and this is an area we've been beaten in constantly this year. We do so much useless, lazy and unthinking running when we get the ball.

The defensive side of our running from my perspective stinks of limited thinking by our players. Sure, you need to stick to a structure, but if an opposition player breaks and is dangerous while uncovered then you need to bust a gut to stop it. So many times this year we've kept defensive formation while the momentum of the other team has rendered us witches hats.

We have a leadership issue at the club. I've come around to that point of view reluctantly and I've tried to stay positive, but it's getting a bit too hard to do that now. In the past it has taken us to lose a first up final to click us in to gear and from that point on we've been able to compete. Throughout home and away games we've displayed some incredibly apathetic behaviour over the last three years but we've been able to string a few together irrespective of that. This year, we don't have the cattle or experience to win whilst being apathetic to the cause. We need to get our shit together in a big way to turn things around, because at this point we don't look like we care at all.

Only solid leadership can turn the above around. It's been a changing of the gaurd in terms of leaders, and they're growing into it but they really need to pull a cat out of the bag now.