Player Management

[LostDoggy]

I want to raise a query or even a concern and see what others thoughts are on the matter, my evidence is purely observational...

Are the Western Bulldogs as a club performing poorly in regards to player management? Both mentally and physically.

Last year or the year before I might have looked at Andre Everritt and blamed his attitude, well actually I did. He seemed such a natural footballer in his first few games and I had such high hopes for him but he just couldn't get his mind on the job. He has played a few games for Sydney now and has been dropped, the jury is out on Spida junior.

Now if we take a look at the last few years and the culmination this year into a massively under performing WB side.

Hill - Another player, like Everitt, undoubtedly talented but once again we cant get his mind on the job, to the point we(me too) are saying he shouldn't play again for the jumper. Can we really afford to be offloading talented young guys?

Higgins - Prodigious talent, we have been unable to manage him physically and many are calling on his mental fragility and his ability to produce at this level.

Grant - Breakout year last season, cant put on any weight and seems to not care at all this year, talented ala Everitt and Hill. Playing like a lame duck.

Lake - Highest paid and arguably our best player, gone this year so far. There are questions over his physical management over the break. Right now he cant run, has lost confidence and we are questioning his desire to be in the team.

Cooney - Physically wasn't right for most of the season, we will see how he goes this week. Gee we miss his outside run, Boyd certainly misses him.

Ves - Should have played by now but wasnt picked early then had an injury.

DJ - Not really given a decent run at it I feel, hasn't done too much wrong in his sub games and 1 (I believe full match). If we didn't have the confidence to play him then why give a 3 year contract? There has surely been opportunities with our form and fitness. Judging by this if we didnt have any injuries he wouldnt have played at all.

Aker - Massive falling out between club and player but has shown himself to be a tool previously and consequently. May have been handled better to cut down on the collateral damage. Hindsight..

Hall, B Johnson - Seems like the same player in a different body, in a different season. great players that just cant get on the park or stay on the park.

Geelong and WC games: The worst two performances by far, we looked to give up, not try, hang heads and looked like a team in another league.
Most players just not making an effort. Many other times this season our opposition has had numbers around the ball. Surely this is work rate and not skill/age.

Bad player and football management, leadership on and off the field or are we just unlucky?

[LostDoggy]

Good Question Marcov,

I think that over the last few years our selection ethos has been very much dominated by the idea of what is best for the team now. This makes sense in that we have been viewed as contenders and felt that we needed to maximise our opportunities while a premiership was possible. This has meant that we have played players through injury, rushed players back, and had players in and around the fringe of selection in and out of team.

This leads to some inconsistent selection practices, 'best 22' players are given more chances and come back into consideration more quickly, fringe players get selected and dropped inconsistently. Last year as the wheels fell off we tried to set some selection examples with Hahn, Aker, Johnno etc but the continued selection of other underperfomed or injured best 22 players with a greater structural importance has reduced the effectiveness of these examples. So far this year we seem to be going the same way trying to set selection examples with Gilbee Hudsoon etc but ruining the message by selecting Lake, Higgins, Grant when form and fitness does not warrant it.

I would like to see us transition to the management / selection ethos that what is best for the player now, is best for the team, long term.

By this rationale even 'best 22' players should be fit and show form before coming back in. By this rationale we may have held back the reintroduction of Lake, Hall, Hargave, Cooney, Gilbee and Higgins to the senior team by making them prove 100% fitness before being selected anywhere and then had them play at Willy until they showed the form to come in. This may sacrifice the team perfromance short term but at least means that good players have the best chance to come back as good players.

[the banker]

Marcov the issues you raise I think are at the core of our problem. We also seem to lack someone with instinct and talent when it comes to player development. There Is a general lack of confidence by individuals that seems to come from confusion and slack of personal development.

[LostDoggy]

Good Question Marcov,

I would like to see us transition to the management / selection ethos that what is best for the player now, is best for the team, long term.

By this rationale even 'best 22' players should be fit and show form before coming back in. By this rationale we may have held back the reintroduction of Lake, Hall, Hargave, Cooney, Gilbee and Higgins to the senior team by making them prove 100% fitness before being selected anywhere and then had them play at Willy until they showed the form to come in. This may sacrifice the team perfromance short term but at least means that good players have the best chance to come back as good players.

Definitely agree with the suggested selection ethos.

Whats your thought s on the Hill/Everitt scenario in isolation? If you could allocate an arbitrary percentage of blame between these players and the club how would you go? Purely Hypothetical of course...

From a long way off, I would go with..
Hill 60% Club 40% I think Hill was treated in a hard but fair manner, he didnt take being dropped too well. Still the club could have done better to understand his temperament.
Everitt 30% Club 70% Quite a few times, under performing players were getting picked and I was feeling bad for Everitt. I would have thought he would have expected a run when he didnt get one or had been dropped to early without enough consecutive games. I also think he had an injury at an unfortunate time.

[Bulldog4life]

Grant - Breakout year last season, cant put on any weight and seems to not care at all this year, talented ala Everitt and Hill. Playing like a lame duck.


Great post Marcov. Been wondering for a while now if Everitt's departure has affected Grant's form and mindset this year. They are very close mates.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Great post Marcov. Been wondering for a while now if Everitt's departure has affected Grant's form and mindset this year. They are very close mates.

I'm quite shocked that with Everitt being a great mate of Grant's that it hasn't hit home to him harder about how ruthless this business is and that it doesn't matter how much potential you might have or where you were drafted, if you aren't bringing the required effort, then you run the risk of a club losing patience with you, and looking to move you on, ala Everitt.

[LostDoggy]

Marcov the issues you raise I think are at the core of our problem. We also seem to lack someone with instinct and talent when it comes to player development. There Is a general lack of confidence by individuals that seems to come from confusion and slack of personal development.

Different personalities require different management styles. The lack of confidence in our case is coming from guys that should exude confidence.
Who is in charge of (social) player management at the club? Rod, fantasia?

[LostDoggy]

Great post Marcov. Been wondering for a while now if Everitt's departure has affected Grant's form and mindset this year. They are very close mates.

I had no idea they were so close, thanks for the insight.

[Ghost Dog]

Definitely agree with the suggested selection ethos.

Whats your thought s on the Hill/Everitt scenario in isolation? If you could allocate an arbitrary percentage of blame between these players and the club how would you go? Purely Hypothetical of course...

From a long way off, I would go with..
Hill 60% Club 40% I think Hill was treated in a hard but fair manner, he didnt take being dropped too well. Still the club could have done better to understand his temperament.
Everitt 30% Club 70% Quite a few times, under performing players were getting picked and I was feeling bad for Everitt. I would have thought he would have expected a run when he didnt get one or had been dropped to early without enough consecutive games. I also think he had an injury at an unfortunate time.

Good thread Marcov. and some interesting observations.
It puzzles me. There was an article on Josh hill in the Hun where he expressed shock that he was going to be traded, saying he really wanted to stay. After reading it, expected him to come out firing this season.
Things seem to get under his skin and I hope he can keep his chin up and make the most of his talents. Same with Everitt, I wish him well and hope he can make the most of his skills. I was disappointed he couldn't get more ground with us. Who knows why.

[AndrewP6]

I've often wondered this year about our physical management. We heard early in the season about the fitness staff structuring our programs so that players would peak later, to avoid the late season struggles we had. Well, it's about the half way point of the season, and more than a few times, I've thought we looked tired, sluggish, and in some instances, unfit. When is the peak expected?

[LostDoggy]

I've often wondered this year about our physical management. We heard early in the season about the fitness staff structuring our programs so that players would peak later, to avoid the late season struggles we had. Well, it's about the half way point of the season, and more than a few times, I've thought we looked tired, sluggish, and in some instances, unfit. When is the peak expected?

We can only hope this week...

I was hanging on to this fact early in the season but we are nearly half way through. It either hasn't worked or it's completely backfired.

[BulldogBelle]

I've often wondered this year about our physical management. We heard early in the season about the fitness staff structuring our programs so that players would peak later, to avoid the late season struggles we had. Well, it's about the half way point of the season, and more than a few times, I've thought we looked tired, sluggish, and in some instances, unfit. When is the peak expected?


Even if our physical fitness peaks in the 2nd half of the season, our mental fitness will take a while to recover from these early season batterings.

We never seem to get fitness right

In previous seasons we peaked too early, now it doesnt look like we will peak at all

[LostDoggy]

Definitely agree with the suggested selection ethos.

Whats your thought s on the Hill/Everitt scenario in isolation? If you could allocate an arbitrary percentage of blame between these players and the club how would you go? Purely Hypothetical of course...

From a long way off, I would go with..
Hill 60% Club 40% I think Hill was treated in a hard but fair manner, he didnt take being dropped too well. Still the club could have done better to understand his temperament.
Everitt 30% Club 70% Quite a few times, under performing players were getting picked and I was feeling bad for Everitt. I would have thought he would have expected a run when he didnt get one or had been dropped to early without enough consecutive games. I also think he had an injury at an unfortunate time.

I find it dificult to say on this one not being inside the club. Both may feel that in a way the club has used them during the season only to turn from them for big games but on the flip side the club might suggest that they did not make the most of their opportunitiies when presented.

I feel looking at them play that Josh has never really addressed the intensity and consstency of effort issues that the club would want him to work on. There are plenty of roles he should be able to play, back flank, forward and outside mid but he does not seem to be able to find the intenisty and consistency of effort that the MC want from him.

Everrit I think was a harder decision as the club really rated him. Skinny had a great first year but played in a club that was losing and suffering with form and injury, he backed up for his second thinking it would all just happen for him and found he could not break into the team. By year three he had started to address the attitude issues and showed signs early in the year or working hard to cement a place in the team, got injured about round 8 or 9 and unlike others had to try to froce his way back from Willy (inconsistent selection practises). He got back in the team late last year off opportunities supplied by injury but was unable to stake a claim for a spot.

With Skinny I feel we were never able to find a way to fit him into our gamepan, too small to play a key post, too slow to play a runing position. The one area of the ground I felt he did not get enough opportunity was in attack, which is where he has eneded up playing at the swans.

I can't really put a percentage on it but I would agree that with Hill it is mostly his own responsibity as he is a good fit for several roles in the team, wtih Skinny the blame is shared as we never really found the role for him to play.

[bornadog]

I find it dificult to say on this one not being inside the club. Both may feel that in a way the club has used them during the season only to turn from them for big games but on the flip side the club might suggest that they did not make the most of their opportunitiies when presented.

I feel looking at them play that Josh has never really addressed the intensity and consstency of effort issues that the club would want him to work on. There are plenty of roles he should be able to play, back flank, forward and outside mid but he does not seem to be able to find the intenisty and consistency of effort that the MC want from him.

Everrit I think was a harder decision as the club really rated him. Skinny had a great first year but played in a club that was losing and suffering with form and injury, he backed up for his second thinking it would all just happen for him and found he could not break into the team. By year three he had started to address the attitude issues and showed signs early in the year or working hard to cement a place in the team, got injured about round 8 or 9 and unlike others had to try to froce his way back from Willy (inconsistent selection practises). He got back in the team late last year off opportunities supplied by injury but was unable to stake a claim for a spot.

With Skinny I feel we were never able to find a way to fit him into our gamepan, too small to play a key post, too slow to play a runing position. The one area of the ground I felt he did not get enough opportunity was in attack, which is where he has eneded up playing at the swans.

I can't really put a percentage on it but I would agree that with Hill it is mostly his own responsibity as he is a good fit for several roles in the team, wtih Skinny the blame is shared as we never really found the role for him to play.

nargh, Everitt is not good enough to be a good AFL player. We overrated him because he looked ok as an 18 year old. The Swans have dropped him for the last two games, so now they will find out if he is good enough to get back in.

[Greystache]

nargh, Everitt is not good enough to be a good AFL player. We overrated him because he looked ok as an 18 year old. The Swans have dropped him for the last two games, so now they will find out if he is good enough to get back in.

He payed on the weekend, but did bugger all. He was only dropped for 1 game.

[Topdog]

Correct stache. And well said bornadog. Everitt just isn't a good player. Teased with potential but doesn't have a position.

I imagine he will be the sub quite a lot as he has his uses in that he is ok as a backman, ok as a forward, ok on the wing. Just not good anywhere in particular.

[Mofra]

Hall, B Johnson - Seems like the same player in a different body, in a different season. great players that just cant get on the park or stay on the park.
I agree with most of the points you've raised but disagree strongly on these two.

Johnno was 4th in the B&F in his second last year and raring to go for one more season - nobody thought he'd drop off that quickly.

Diutto Hall - he was 2nd in the Coleman last year but his body failing him right now is not something anyone predicted.

[Mofra]

I imagine he will be the sub quite a lot as he has his uses in that he is ok as a backman, ok as a forward, ok on the wing. Just not good anywhere in particular.
It has been mentioned a few times - good player, he suffers from being the 7th best available in every position on the ground.
In an interview last year at VFL level he couldn't decide what his best position was. That spoke volumes to me.

[LostDoggy]

I agree with most of the points you've raised but disagree strongly on these two.

Johnno was 4th in the B&F in his second last year and raring to go for one more season - nobody thought he'd drop off that quickly.

Diutto Hall - he was 2nd in the Coleman last year but his body failing him right now is not something anyone predicted.

I'm not sure where we disagree here. I certainly agree with your argument.

I was comparing the scenarios in relation to player management as more circumstantial evidence from someone outside the inner sanctum. They both were performing well but dropped off through injury and possibly age. I added these guys as perhaps their conditioning could have been handled differently. perhaps not.

[Topdog]

They possibly could have marcov but people get old and get old quickly.

As Charles Barkley said

"Ppl waiting on the Celtics to get healthy. No disrespect but old ppl dont get healthy. They die"

[LostDoggy]

They possibly could have marcov but people get old and get old quickly.

As Charles Barkley said

"Ppl waiting on the Celtics to get healthy. No disrespect but old ppl dont get healthy. They die"

Too true, I feel it in my hangovers these days.

Has Gilbee succumbed to age early? Or does he have an application/mental issue?

We seem to be very unlucky or we are doing something wrong.

[bornadog]

Too true, I feel it in my hangovers these days.

Has Gilbee succumbed to age early? Or does he have an application/mental issue?

We seem to be very unlucky or we are doing something wrong.

Gilbee had problems last year and really didn't play like the Gilbee of old. Maybe with his father dieing it has effected him mentally more than we all thought.

[LostDoggy]

Interesting fact: Did you know that we have 20 players on the senior list basically under the age of 23.

Their grand total of games to last round was 244. This is an average of 12.2 games per player, yet;

Four have played 0 games
Eight have played less than ten

If Josh Hill (63) and Callan Ward (48) left at seasons end then the stats would be (give or take a 1-game amount) down to around about 7 games for the under 23's.

Interesting to know what the AFL average would be for players of a similar age.

I find that a little daunting considering we'll be losing around 800 games at the end of the season you'd think in Hall, Huddo, Gilbs & Hahn.

Our younger playing list are victims of our success in the last 3 years.

[LostDoggy]

Interesting fact: Did you know that we have 20 players on the senior list basically under the age of 23.

Their grand total of games to last round was 244. This is an average of 12.2 games per player, yet;

Four have played 0 games
Eight have played less than ten

If Josh Hill (63) and Callan Ward (48) left at seasons end then the stats would be (give or take a 1-game amount) down to around about 7 games for the under 23's.

Interesting to know what the AFL average would be for players of a similar age.

I find that a little daunting considering we'll be losing around 800 games at the end of the season you'd think in Hall, Huddo, Gilbs & Hahn.


Our younger playing list are victims of our success in the last 3 years.

Interesting figures suggest we will have a very inexoerienced team next season. Ward has a big decision to make. Do we need someone at the club who works well with the younger guys?