The rebuild is on, make no mistakes about that

[bornadog]

Last night we played 11 players with less than 50 games and 9 of those had played less than 20. Of the Veterans only 4 had played over 150 games. This surely is the youngest team we have played for the past 8 years.

Should we continue down this path or try and salvage some wins by loading up with older players.

I like Topdogs suggestion of some sort of rotation system for the older and younger players between Seniors and Willi.

I would also like to see Tutt, Schofield, Cordy, Roughead play this season.

[ledge]

Captain obvious:D

No option with all the blokes not being ready, lazy or going down with injury so early in the season.
I would like to see Hooper get a game too, dont care what he has done in preseason etc, get him in and watch him fight in the fowardline.
I am a fan of his effort just want it confirmed one way or the other.
I am jumping on the Dalhaus boat though.
Tutt seems to have taken a step up.
Roughy got injured at the worse time, but he will come on very quickly.

[chef]

Last night we played 11 players with less than 50 games and 9 of those had played less than 20. Of the Veterans only 4 had played over 150 games. This surely is the youngest team we have played for the past 8 years.

Should we continue down this path or try and salvage some wins by loading up with older players.

I like Topdogs suggestion of some sort of rotation system for the older and younger players between Seniors and Willi.

I would also like to see Tutt, Schofield, Cordy, Roughead play this season.

I say continue down this path. I would also love to see Skinner get a game at FF under the roof.

[lemmon]

Probably of more interest is how much we cull the list at seasons end. Hall and Hudson will be gone, I would be offering up the likes of Cross, Gilbee, and Hargrave to GWS, the former and latter could definitley be role players for a young side, if no interest is shown then its a case of thanks for the memories. Lake would be the other Id consider throwing up, still think he'd have decent currency but the issue is the lack of a replacement, if the offers right Id have no issue shipping him off but if not then hes still required. Then we have a bunch of guys who are on the cusp of the 22 Moles, Stack, Addison and Hill have all had an extended run, might be harsh on a few but its not like they haven't had opportunities, try to get a trade but if not then they get the cut as well. Thats already a decent turn-over without considering rookies.

Id be prepared for more pain next year, if it leaves us with a more balanced, young list. Would leave the experience of Boyd, Gia, Morris, Murph who all bleed the red white and blue, a talented middle aged group of a hopefully fit Cooney, Griff, Ward, Higgins, Wood, Williams and Minson who are undoubtedly talented and must start to shoulder the burden and a younger crew of Wallis, Libba, Howard, Roughy, Cordy, Dalhaus, Grant and Jones who all have significant potential. If we draft well, particularly another classy outside mid and a key back the rebuild could be quite rapid.

[Scorlibo]

The average number of games played by our side on Friday night was 79.

The Gold Coast Sun's average games experience is 59.

Compare this to Geelong's average games tally of 135 and all of a sudden it becomes a lot clearer where we sit and what our expectations should be.

It will be very interesting to see how we transition between the current group of the 99-01 drafts and the kids of the 06-10 drafts. Morris, Murphy, Boyd and Cross particularly have shown no signs of slowing down and must continue to play. Gilbee, Hargrave and Lake are players with question marks over their heads and hopefully by next year we will know exactly where they stand and what they offer. We should use the remainder of this year to give every player a run at AFL level, with an eye to round 1 next year when we should have identified roles for every player in a reasonably settled best 22.

[Ghost Dog]

Probably of more interest is how much we cull the list at seasons end. Hall and Hudson will be gone, I would be offering up the likes of Cross, Gilbee, and Hargrave to GWS, the former and latter could definitley be role players for a young side, if no interest is shown then its a case of thanks for the memories. Lake would be the other Id consider throwing up, still think he'd have decent currency but the issue is the lack of a replacement, if the offers right Id have no issue shipping him off but if not then hes still required. Then we have a bunch of guys who are on the cusp of the 22 Moles, Stack, Addison and Hill have all had an extended run, might be harsh on a few but its not like they haven't had opportunities, try to get a trade but if not then they get the cut as well. Thats already a decent turn-over without considering rookies.

Id be prepared for more pain next year, if it leaves us with a more balanced, young list. Would leave the experience of Boyd, Gia, Morris, Murph who all bleed the red white and blue, a talented middle aged group of a hopefully fit Cooney, Griff, Ward, Higgins, Wood, Williams and Minson who are undoubtedly talented and must start to shoulder the burden and a younger crew of Wallis, Libba, Howard, Roughy, Cordy, Dalhaus, Grant and Jones who all have significant potential. If we draft well, particularly another classy outside mid and a key back the rebuild could be quite rapid.

It's not about age though is it ? Dustin Fletcher says hello. It's about fitness and ability to carry out a role. Geelong are a good example of a team that's 'topped up' an remain committed to winning every game they can, not worrying about 'windows' or 'rebuilding'.
The only game worth worrying about is the next one.

The season is far from over and injuries and form fluctuate. Forget about what the team will look like next year and focus on next week.

[chef]

It's not about age though is it ? Dustin Fletcher says hello. It's about fitness and ability to carry out a role. Geelong are a good example of a team that's 'topped up' an remain committed to winning every game they can, not worrying about 'windows' or 'rebuilding'.
The only game worth worrying about is the next one.

The season is far from over and injuries and form fluctuate. Forget about what the team will look like next year and focus on next week.

That's very short sighted IMO with the state of our season and team. You need to be planning more than one game ahead.

[Ghost Dog]

That's very short sighted IMO with the state of our season and team. You need to be planning more than one game ahead.

For now, we have to focus on getting the continuity right. We have all the key positions covered don't we? Right, time to focus on getting the team settled with enough games together as a unit. Unless we get that right, can't begin to really get a clear picture of where we are at come trade week.

[lemmon]

It's not about age though is it ? Dustin Fletcher says hello. It's about fitness and ability to carry out a role. Geelong are a good example of a team that's 'topped up' an remain committed to winning every game they can, not worrying about 'windows' or 'rebuilding'.
The only game worth worrying about is the next one.

The season is far from over and injuries and form fluctuate. Forget about what the team will look like next year and focus on next week.

Im not sure what you're saying, the time for 'topping up' is well and truly gone. Its time to realise the team as is wont bring success and the sooner we are able realise that and move on the sooner we'll be climbing back up the ladder. This era of success we've had over the last 3 or 4 years is done and dusted, time to build for the next one.

[Ghost Dog]

Im not sure what you're saying, the time for 'topping up' is well and truly gone. Its time to realise the team as is wont bring success and the sooner we are able realise that and move on the sooner we'll be climbing back up the ladder. This era of success we've had over the last 3 or 4 years is done and dusted, time to build for the next one.

I disagree I suppose. I think it will bring success. We could have and should have won last night for a few straight kicks. I think we have , for the most part anyway, a good list of players right now, as we are. Just need the reward for effort with skills, more confidence playing together and luck with injuries to a few key players.

[chef]

For now, we have to focus on getting the continuity right. We have all the key positions covered don't we? Right, time to focus on getting the team settled with enough games together as a unit. Unless we get that right, can't begin to really get a clear picture of where we are at come trade week.

We obviously have different ideas of where the team/list is at.

[chef]

I disagree I suppose. I think it will bring success. We could have and should have won last night for a few straight kicks. I think we have the right cattle right now, as we are. Just need the reward for effort with skills, more confidence playing together and luck with injuries to key players.

:confused:Really?

[chef]

The average number of games played by our side on Friday night was 79.

The Gold Coast Sun's average games experience is 59.

Compare this to Geelong's average games tally of 135 and all of a sudden it becomes a lot clearer where we sit and what our expectations should be.

It will be very interesting to see how we transition between the current group of the 99-01 drafts and the kids of the 06-10 drafts. Morris, Murphy, Boyd and Cross particularly have shown no signs of slowing down and must continue to play. Gilbee, Hargrave and Lake are players with question marks over their heads and hopefully by next year we will know exactly where they stand and what they offer. We should use the remainder of this year to give every player a run at AFL level, with an eye to round 1 next year when we should have identified roles for every player in a reasonably settled best 22.

To me Cross looks shot and I would be surprised if Murphy played for anymore than one more season.

[lemmon]

I disagree I suppose. I think it will bring success. We could have and should have won last night for a few straight kicks. I think we have , for the most part anyway, a good list of players right now, as we are. Just need the reward for effort with skills, more confidence playing together and luck with injuries to a few key players.

I havent seen any, even remote evidence at any point of any game this year to suggest that we are anything but a bottom four side. The class of 99 is all but done and dusted, our hope lies in the Griffens, Higgins, Cooneys and Wards and the kids coming through under them.

[Ghost Dog]

:confused:Really?

yes, I do.

[Ghost Dog]

I havent seen any, even remote evidence at any point of any game this year to suggest that we are anything but a bottom four side. The class of 99 is all but done and dusted, our hope lies in the Griffens, Higgins, Cooneys and Wards and the kids coming through under them.

Agreed. Basing what I'm talking about on last night's ( and last night's only ) mix of players and yes, agree with your bolded line.

[Ghost Dog]

We obviously have different ideas of where the team/list is at.

Fair enough. So if you're a recruiter at WB coming up to trade week, what would you be after.

[Scorlibo]

I disagree I suppose. I think it will bring success. We could have and should have won last night for a few straight kicks. I think we have , for the most part anyway, a good list of players right now, as we are. Just need the reward for effort with skills, more confidence playing together and luck with injuries to a few key players.

You are right, but the issue is with our current standing. I have no doubt that we have the cattle to be a very good side, but it will take another month at least for the things to unfold as you have outlined above and by then we will be out of range of finals purely going by the number of losses we have.

[GVGjr]

The season is far from over and injuries and form fluctuate. Forget about what the team will look like next year and focus on next week.

Spot on. Rocket needs to get the team back playing the type of football it can and it could very well start next week.

[lemmon]

Agreed. Basing what I'm talking about on last night's ( and last night's only ) mix of players and yes, agree with your bolded line.

The Saints are just about as dead as we are and those names wont deliver anything untill the Jones and Grants and Howards and Libbas and Wallaces get that magic 60-100 games experience. It's going to be a few years untill we start to see the results and if you think the likes of Cross and Gilbee will still be kicking on then we're in trouble. Its time to bite the bullet, thank them for the memories and move on and to Eades credit so far thats whats being done.

[GVGjr]

We obviously have different ideas of where the team/list is at.

So where in your opinion is the playing list and why is it there?

[Topdog]

Spot on. Rocket needs to get the team back playing the type of football it can and it could very well start next week.

No way G. I think you need something in the middle. You can't ever give up trying to win games but you should also be realistic and realise that we are not winning the GF this year.

I'm not into playing all kids and losing but we need a mix and we need to wind down the careers of the older guys who have 1 or 2 seasons left.

You have mentioned in the past that we haven't been brutal enough at the end of the season (delistings) well if we don't do it this year we will be in a World of pain in the upcoming future.

[LostDoggy]

I agree the season is over, but I think there is merit in playing the guys that won't be around next year. The likes of Barry Hall, even though not that affective and probably won't have a spot in next years team, would be a good on field mentor to the likes of Jones in the FWD line. The guys on the way out can pass on their knowledge to the guys on the way in, during a "rebuilding" season.

[GVGjr]

No way G. I think you need something in the middle. You can't ever give up trying to win games but you should also be realistic and realise that we are not winning the GF this year.

I'm not into playing all kids and losing but we need a mix and we need to wind down the careers of the older guys who have 1 or 2 seasons left.

You have mentioned in the past that we haven't been brutal enough at the end of the season (delistings) well if we don't do it this year we will be in a World of pain in the upcoming future.

The members won't cop the whole 'we are going down a rebuilding path' for the balance of the season especially after being told that a GF spot was our target for the season.
It would be a nightmare for sponsorship and membership going forward.

The focus I would take is around bringing in the younger guys that have earned their chances rather than just playing youngsters for the sake of it.
I watch Williamstown most weeks and see no advantage for some players to be jumped into the seniors without first doing the work.

I think the suggestion that playing youngsters now will make up for poor list management over the past 3 years is flawed.

[Topdog]

Think I put it out there wrong, I meant that will need to delist retire at least 6 players come the end of this season.

As I said I'm not suggesting playing all kids but we need to have about half the side as < 60 games. I think the mix yesterday was good from a trying to win games and blooding young players perspective.

[LongWait]

The members won't cop the whole 'we are going down a rebuilding path' for the balance of the season especially after being told that a GF spot was our target for the season.
It would be a nightmare for sponsorship and membership going forward.
The focus I would take is around bringing in the younger guys that have earned their chances rather than just playing youngsters for the sake of it.
I watch Williamstown most weeks and see no advantage for some players to be jumped into the seniors without first doing the work.

I think the suggestion that playing youngsters now will make up for poor list management over the past 3 years is flawed.

Are the members and sponsors morons? I think not.

We are done and dusted for this season as far as making any impression on the finals goes. What remains to give supporters hope and an interest in the season is a public acknowledgement that we are in reconstruction made. Not a clean-out, and not a total rebuild, but we should focus on getting games into those who will be part of our future over the next 5 years and ensuring we teach them the right way to play. It would also be nice to see the team play with some semblance of a competitive game plan.

[azabob]

Fair enough. So if you're a recruiter at WB coming up to trade week, what would you be after.

Worst case we trade for draft picks and only draft picks.

[chef]

Fair enough. So if you're a recruiter at WB coming up to trade week, what would you be after.

I would be more worried about the draft than trade week.

[chef]

So where in your opinion is the playing list and why is it there?

In need of a prune and rebuild and it's there because some of the kids we drafted(and traded for) haven't come through and age has caught up with our older players and they don't influence games any more as they used to.

With some good list management and drafting we can be pushing for a final 8 spot again next year. Hopefully every player that needs surgery can get it done early as to not affect their preseasons as 2012 should now be our focus.

[GVGjr]

Think I put it out there wrong, I meant that will need to delist retire at least 6 players come the end of this season.

As I said I'm not suggesting playing all kids but we need to have about half the side as < 60 games. I think the mix yesterday was good from a trying to win games and blooding young players perspective.

Yes, hard decisions need to be made every year but especially now after a couple of missed opportunities leading into this season.


Now about the younger guys, with the reduced bench it's even harder to cover too many youngsters and the last thing we need is to run them into the ground.
They need to be played but we need to be selective about it. I think the way the club has managed Libertore's introduction to AFL footy has been fantastic but it doesn't mean we can simply juggle 4 or 5 others.

[GVGjr]

In need of a prune and rebuild and it's there because some of the kids we drafted(and traded for) haven't come through and age has caught up with our older players and they don't influence games any more as they used to.

With some good list management and drafting we can be pushing for a final 8 spot again next year. Hopefully every player that needs surgery can get it done early as to not affect their preseasons as 2012 should now be our focus.

We should have done a bit more a couple of years back leading into the compromised drafts and knowing about our father son commitments but whilst we need to take a stronger approach to list management we can't just play kids for the sake of it.
To me tanking games by ignoring form is never the right option. We can continue to tinker with the line-up for the balance of the season providing opportunities as form dictates but running the red pen though the names of the likes of Cross to manufacture opportunities isn't an option from my perspective.

[Ghost Dog]

In need of a prune and rebuild and it's there because some of the kids we drafted(and traded for) haven't come through and age has caught up with our older players and they don't influence games any more as they used to.

With some good list management and drafting we can be pushing for a final 8 spot again next year. Hopefully every player that needs surgery can get it done early as to not affect their preseasons as 2012 should now be our focus.

Grant has been a disappointment. Which other youngsters are you talking about?

[chef]

Grant has been a disappointment. Which other youngsters are you talking about?

The kids we drafted in the 2000-2006 draft group(not counting trades and rookies), we only got 6 decent players out of this and it is really starting to bite us on the arse now.

[1eyedog]

The average number of games played by our side on Friday night was 79.

The Gold Coast Sun's average games experience is 59.

Compare this to Geelong's average games tally of 135 and all of a sudden it becomes a lot clearer where we sit and what our expectations should be.

It will be very interesting to see how we transition between the current group of the 99-01 drafts and the kids of the 06-10 drafts. Morris, Murphy, Boyd and Cross particularly have shown no signs of slowing down and must continue to play. Gilbee, Hargrave and Lake are players with question marks over their heads and hopefully by next year we will know exactly where they stand and what they offer. We should use the remainder of this year to give every player a run at AFL level, with an eye to round 1 next year when we should have identified roles for every player in a reasonably settled best 22.

Lake's name in these discussions is pure madness! Has everyone gone mad? He is our key back, a recent AA and was last year the best defensive mark in the competition. He was ravaged by surgery over the preseason and has struggled to come up.

If Lake goes we'll be in a world of hurt because an unfit Lake and Cooney is what is hurting us most.

[1eyedog]

Think I put it out there wrong, I meant that will need to delist retire at least 6 players come the end of this season.

As I said I'm not suggesting playing all kids but we need to have about half the side as < 60 games. I think the mix yesterday was good from a trying to win games and blooding young players perspective.

Who are your six Top Dog?

Hudson, Hall, Gilbee...?

[Remi Moses]

There is some delusional opinions on here! Stkilda controlled that game for the majority of it, believe me neither side will play finals. The Beard and Barry will have farewell games in the coming weeks,the club regardless of who is coach must use the draft and put game time into Tutt, Cordy Schofield and the like. The season is shot and whoever thinks otherwise should book themselves into therapy immediately

[bornadog]

I think the mix yesterday was good from a trying to win games and blooding young players perspective.

half the team with less than 50 games and of those 9 with less than 20. I think that was too young.

[LostDoggy]

Did you see the 9 year old girl form Tas get the Auskicker of the week at HT , in the sideline chat she says shes a Dogs supporter , was asked what she thought of the year so far , she says well we are rebuilding so aren,t doing so well

If a 9 year old says we are rebuilding , well , I guess we don't need to hear it from Rocket

.

[Bulldog Revolution]

If a 9 year old says we are rebuilding , well , I guess we don't need to hear it from Rocket

.

Yes, it's clear, but why? We shouldn't have been rebuilding

We should have been challenging for spots 4-8 whilst continuing to blood Jones, Roughy, Libba, Howard etc

Its a convenient excuse for us now to be re-building

[Maddog37]

What should happen in life and what does happen are quite often very different.

Injuries and age have had a much larger impact than anticipated as well as the whole Lake fiasco.

[Ghost Dog]

The word re-building it can also be a bit misleading.
Predicting we'll a much better second half of the season.
There are a few reasons for this.
Firstly, we pulled back in preseason to avoid a repeat of the NAB experience last year ( peaking too early )
Secondly, our A grade players should be on the mend by then
Thirdly, we have a bit of an easier run in terms of opposition.
But most importantly, it's taking a while for the MC to find a reliable mix , then get enough consistent game time into it.

So when we start winning games, are people going to still say we're rebuilding?
Maybe it's a phrase that gives supporters a bit of hope, but it's not really accurate.

More or less, we are re-adjusting. If you look at the top shelf teams, they get enough consistent game time together to work in 'hunting packs'. They develop that intuitive sense of space that your back three or mids or foward line needs. We haven't had enough consistent game time as a unit in it's current form.

It's a confidence you'll see in players like Steve Johnson or Buddy Franklin, to play on fast, pull a few fancy moves out of their arse, as they have that confidence in their rank and file, and have the set patterns and confidence in delivery.

We need to draft well of course, but this current team is capable of winning good games once it finds it's feet. What concerns me is our supporter base. That's the big advantage geelong and hawthorn have over us, collingwood especially. That mental edge is not to be discounted. The crowd advantage is well documented and it's a hard thing to address.
HAve to win as many games as we can and stop the bleeding of supporters. I think we will, and am pretty up beat after seeing Friday's game, despite the shocking skills.

[LostDoggy]

^^^^^^Thanks for that GD

Yes , if we can fight our up to 8th or 9th while rotating younger players I,d say it was a "positive rebuild "

As you say , if we had of had a consistent 22 and be in the same position we are now we would be right to feel dismayed at the downfall of a consistent finals side but we just havn,t have a cohesive unit right from Round 1 , the intensity in patches against St Kilda was very good , we stopped several of their best players from having an impact , we kept them to a low score but mistakes and inefficient disposals cost us

.