Tanking.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Well, I'm ready.
Give Cooney and Lake and whoever else, the time they need to rehabilitate properly for next year.
Play the kids week in week out.
And start willing the dogs down down down the ladder.
Can anyone post the picks GWS will have next year so we can have a reverse draft pick race and see what pick we can hope to get.

[chef]

GWS will have picks 1,2,3,5,7,9,11 and 13 in the first round if they have the same picks as GC.

so
17th gets 4
16th gets 6
15th gets 8
14th gets 10
13th gets 12
12th gets 14 and so on

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Jasper]

Mate I'm a glass half empty man with the Bulldogs - maybe for good reason, but I don't like tanking and hope we don't. Yes do what we need to be ready next year but don't tank which means coaching to lose like Freo, Carlton, Richmond and Melbourne have done. In all honesty Pick 1 is over-rated anyway. Wasn't Judd Pick 3, Selwood Pick 7, Chapman Pick 30 or 40, Buddy Pick 5??

[LostDoggy]

Just play the best team based on form and that is all I ask. If a 50/50 decision on player selection go with Youth every time.

[Desipura]

Mate I'm a glass half empty man with the Bulldogs - maybe for good reason, but I don't like tanking and hope we don't. Yes do what we need to be ready next year but don't tank which means coaching to lose like Freo, Carlton, Richmond and Melbourne have done. In all honesty Pick 1 is over-rated anyway. Wasn't Judd Pick 3, Selwood Pick 7, Chapman Pick 30 or 40, Buddy Pick 5??

Paton will go pick 1, by all reports he is not overrated

[Dancin' Douggy]

Big difference between pick 14 and pick 4 though.
I guess what I'm saying is we shouldn't pick teams to try and win games.
Wheeling out a half fit Cooney to try and get 4 points is plain stupid.
We should pick teams with a view to developing players and the list for next year.
Give sore warriors proper time to heal.

HOPEFULLY that strategy will have the added benefit of improving our draft position as well.

Carn the Crows!

[Jasper]

Paton will go pick 1, by all reports he is not overrated

Yes he sounds good. Its a bit of a lottery in a lot of ways. Scully and Watts are interesting Pick Ones, Watts may be good, still don't know, I know I'd rather Naitanui, Hill, or Hurley. Scully is great as long as his chronic knee allows him on the park, sound like any other Pick Ones we know?? Would you rather Deledio or Franklin?? Gibss instead of Selwood or J Reiwoldt? Its a lottery, would be happy with Top 10 pick, tanking to get say Pick 1 instead Pick 5 is not worth it.

[GVGjr]

I guess what I'm saying is we shouldn't pick teams to try and win games.


If the club went down that road I would certainly have a rethink about how much money I would spend on my membership. I can accept genuine losses and wouldn't have been supporting the club for as long as I have if I couldn't accept them but I won't cop a team being selected primarily with the thought process of losing games.

To my way of thinking you clearly cannot ask players to dig deeper when it counts in the coming season if as a club you have gone out of your way to manufacture losses.

[LostDoggy]

If the club went down that road I would certainly have a rethink about how much money I would spend on my membership. I can accept genuine losses and wouldn't have been supporting the club for as long as I have if I couldn't accept them but I won't cop a team being selected primarily with the thought process of losing games.

To my way of thinking you clearly cannot ask players to dig deeper when it counts in the coming season if as a club you have gone out of your way to manufacture losses.

Tanking does not work but there is merit in playing younger players and resting blokes who may not be 100% whilst you are in a building phase. This may have the role on effect of losing a few more games but it will pay dividends in the future. The big question though is how long you do this for?

[GVGjr]

Tanking does not work but there is merit in playing younger players and resting blokes who may not be 100% whilst you are in a building phase. This may have the role on effect of losing a few more games but it will pay dividends in the future. The big question though is how long you do this for?

We were slated as aiming for a GF spot this year and whilst that is no longer realistic has the club actually said we are now in a rebuilding phase?

The aim for the club and the coach is a simple one at the moment and that is around trying to get the side playing the type of football that we know they are capable of.
Where we finish is irrelevant at the moment and we should just focus on playing good football.

[LostDoggy]

Well , we are rotating the younger players already but I just stand any talk of tanking or positioning ourselves for draft picks

We need the younger players to be in a positive learning environment , yes the Club has hit a bad patch , yes we have been impacted by injuries , but we now have a platform to try to get us into 8th or 9th spot , as far as I,m concerned the Club has to bite the bullet and start the rebuild program for pre-season 2011/ 12 , if we can increase the game time of the younger players , make assessments of the list in regards to our senior players , have the players who need an operation like Cooney have the surgery now and we can fight our way up to 8th or 9th then we will be in better position than if we just throw our hands in the air and just give up and tank

As has been stated, Clubs will have to manage the lists they have as they won't have access to the best draft picks unless they swap star players for draft picks

.

[AndrewP6]

No, no, no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no and NOOOOOO! I would much rather the embarrassment of poor skill execution, not running hard enough and lack of intensity than to know players were intentionally not trying to win games. Bugger the draft picks, I'd rather slide down the ladder. Pick the best available team, and give opportunities to kids where possible.

[G-Mo77]

I disagree with the word tanking. I don't think we deliberately go out and lose games from this point on but if a certain player will not be there in 2012 or a certain game style won't be used, don't use it.

[Mofra]

The tankign vs not tanking debate may be secondary anyway.

Eade started at the club by getting the players to focus on the processes of being a professional footballer and leaving the results second. Personally that's what I think we need to focus on, especially with so many kids in the side - whether that leaves us 10th or 14th is immaterial.

[westdog54]

Well, I'm ready.
Give Cooney and Lake and whoever else, the time they need to rehabilitate properly for next year.
Play the kids week in week out.
And start willing the dogs down down down the ladder.
Can anyone post the picks GWS will have next year so we can have a reverse draft pick race and see what pick we can hope to get.

This discussion came up 4 years ago when we slid to 13th after a wretched year. I'll say the same thing I said back then. I would be absolutely ashamed to play for a club that was setting out to not win games. And for what? A remote chance of getting one of the 3 top 10 picks that is still available?

Lets face it, GC, Brisbane and Port are doing pretty well at fighting out the bottom 3 places at the moment without trying to lose games. Why should we try and out-do them to buy an extra 3 or 4 places in the draft order?

By all means lets rest players that need it, but I will not hear of picking teams with the intention of not winning games.

As for the 'Carn the Crows' comment... actually, no, I will simply not dignify it with a response.

[LostDoggy]

Some how, i don't think Rocket is planning to lose anymore games this year.

[Dancin' Douggy]

This discussion came up 4 years ago when we slid to 13th after a wretched year. I'll say the same thing I said back then. I would be absolutely ashamed to play for a club that was setting out to not win games. And for what? A remote chance of getting one of the 3 top 10 picks that is still available?

Lets face it, GC, Brisbane and Port are doing pretty well at fighting out the bottom 3 places at the moment without trying to lose games. Why should we try and out-do them to buy an extra 3 or 4 places in the draft order?

By all means lets rest players that need it, but I will not hear of picking teams with the intention of not winning games.

As for the 'Carn the Crows' comment... actually, no, I will simply not dignify it with a response.

Hey West dog, you're absolutely right.
Of course I don't want our guys to deliberately lose and I'll be there on Friday night hoping we win.
But the coaching staff in my opinion should field teams with an eye on 2012. not trying to scrape wins by wheeling out guys obviously playing under an injury cloud.
Put it this way, I'd rather lose every game so far than see Cooney running around with a bung knee trying to lift us from 13th to 11th on the ladder.
I'd rather win the wooden spoon with a bunch of kids while Cooney, and any one else who needs it just goes into surgery/rehabilitation mode.
We find out who's up to it and who ain't, and if we end up in a better position draft wise,
well GOOD.

[westdog54]

Hey West dog, you're absolutely right.
Of course I don't want our guys to deliberately lose and I'll be there on Friday night hoping we win.
But the coaching staff in my opinion should field teams with an eye on 2012. not trying to scrape wins by wheeling out guys obviously playing under an injury cloud.
Put it this way, I'd rather lose every game so far than see Cooney running around with a bung knee trying to lift us from 13th to 11th on the ladder.
I'd rather win the wooden spoon with a bunch of kids while Cooney, and any one else who needs it just goes into surgery/rehabilitation mode.
We find out who's up to it and who ain't, and if we end up in a better position draft wise,
well GOOD.

I'm glad we're on the same page, but resting players who need it is a very far cry from tanking. Tanking is knowingly fielding teams which are not expected to win, and that is simply unacceptable. By all means have an eye on 2012, but I think there's little to be gained from a large number of losses and a bottom 4 finish, particularly when the likes of GC, Brisbane and Port, and to a lesser extent Adelaide, are playing the rubbish footy they are playing at the moment.

And for Christ's sake don't ever let me see you cheering on another team against us again.:)

[MrMahatma]

I don't think we should tank. But I can see the point in playing Wallis over Cross, or Howard over Gilbee, or Jones over Hall. It may lead to losses - but the thought process isn't about trying to lose, it's about trying to get experience into the kids, which invariably will lead to losing games. I'm willing to cop that for the greater good.

If we just rolled out a team with the plan to lose, then defo question what the point of being a supporter is. Why buy a membership costing a couple hundred $ when your team is planning to lose? We can't do it.

[BulldogBelle]

We have had made some hideous first round draft picks in the past 15 years...

- Everitt
- Power
- Ray
- McMahon
- Walsh
- Alvey

Getting a pick in the top 15 doesn't mean that the player we select is going to change the fortunes of the club...

Tanking will do more harm than good - it will hurt our revenue via memberships, sponsorships and merchandise etc - not worth gambling that away for one pick in the top 15 that may turn out to be a < 50 game spud

[Rance Fan]

Betfair have us at $76 for the wooden spoon.
Not bad odds!

[Remi Moses]

I'm all for putting guys away if surgery is needed,this season has emphasized how vital a pre-season has become.The more game we put into the young players the better we'll be. As for tanking, how is it defined? Players not trying to win ? Players try to win but coaching must have an eye to the future.

[GVGjr]

As for tanking, how is it defined? Players not trying to win ? Players try to win but coaching must have an eye to the future.

My definition is something like:
1) Players not trying to win
2) The Club or Coach knowingly picking inferior sides with a view of limiting the amount of wins they are capable of.

[Rocco Jones]

My definition is something like:
1) Players not trying to win
2) The Club or Coach knowingly picking inferior sides with a view of limiting the amount of wins they are capable of.

I think the former does not exist but the latter does.

Which players are going to underperform for their club? They risk their reputation, market value and pride. Asking players to underperform is also very risky as all you need is one disillusioned type to spill the beans. I think it's wrong and corrupt.

The real face of 'tanking' for mine is going out of your way to pick kids and 'rest' senior types.

[GVGjr]

I think the former does not exist but the latter does.

Which players are going to underperform for their club? They risk their reputation, market value and pride. Asking players to underperform is also very risky as all you need is one disillusioned type to spill the beans. I think it's wrong and corrupt.

The real face of 'tanking' for mine is going out of your way to pick kids and 'rest' senior types.


Agreed. I believe we can still get back to playing quality football before the season is over and I think that has to be the aim. It's important for the club, coach and supporters that we do.

This can also be achieved by keeping an eye on the future and playing youngsters who deserve their chances. I don't care if that results in a lot of wins or just a few but right at this moment that should be the focus.

It's a shame we don't have a relegation system in place to stop supporters just wanting the club to position themselves for early draft picks.

[w3design]

My definition is something like:
1) Players not trying to win
2) The Club or Coach knowingly picking inferior sides with a view of limiting the amount of wins they are capable of.

When Melbourne obviously tanked they even added another dimension by not making clearly needed positional moves during the course of winnable games. It would have left me with a very sour taste as a fan.

I would be ashamed if I saw this form of tanking and it is just about the only time I would really reconsider my support for the dogs. It feels like cheating too..the pleasure of seeing a high draft pick blossom would be tarnished in my view if I felt we 'threw' games to get him. That may be a naive view on my part, especially as I see Carlton currently top 4.

However not selecting unfit, out of form senior players ahead of kids is a different matter and definitely the way forward.

[LostDoggy]

Well , we are rotating the younger players already but I just stand any talk of tanking or positioning ourselves for draft picks

We need the younger players to be in a positive learning environment , yes the Club has hit a bad patch , yes we have been impacted by injuries , but we now have a platform to try to get us into 8th or 9th spot , as far as I,m concerned the Club has to bite the bullet and start the rebuild program for pre-season 2011/ 12 , if we can increase the game time of the younger players , make assessments of the list in regards to our senior players , have the players who need an operation like Cooney have the surgery now and we can fight our way up to 8th or 9th then we will be in better position than if we just throw our hands in the air and just give up and tank

As has been stated, Clubs will have to manage the lists they have as they won't have access to the best draft picks unless they swap star players for draft picks

.

Agree with this - no tanking....... let's show the bulldog spirit and fight!

[LostDoggy]

When Melbourne obviously tanked they even added another dimension by not making clearly needed positional moves during the course of winnable games. It would have left me with a very sour taste as a fan.

I would be ashamed if I saw this form of tanking and it is just about the only time I would really reconsider my support for the dogs. It feels like cheating too..the pleasure of seeing a high draft pick blossom would be tarnished in my view if I felt we 'threw' games to get him. That may be a naive view on my part, especially as I see Carlton currently top 4.

However not selecting unfit, out of form senior players ahead of kids is a different matter and definitely the way forward.

Goes around and comes around. They are about to get ripped when Scully goes to GWS (come on people we know he's gone) and it sounds like a little piece of natural justice....

[The Coon Dog]

We once played Essendon in round 22. If we won we got pick 5. If we lost we got picks 3 & 6!

I didn't want us to win that day.

[Desipura]

We once played Essendon in round 22. If we won we got pick 5. If we lost we got picks 3 & 6!

I didn't want us to win that day.
Clean your mouth with soap and water young man! :D

[G-Mo77]

We once played Essendon in round 22. If we won we got pick 5. If we lost we got picks 3 & 6!

I didn't want us to win that day.

I'm assuming that was that the year we got Griffen & Williams.

[Desipura]

I'm assuming that was that the year we got Griffen & Williams.
You would assume correct. I can recall going to watch Melbourne play Carlton in a final and ran into Smorgon after the game. I told him I hope you guys pick up Franklin with our 1st pick. He gave me that sheepish look and said who's Franklin and where is he from?

[Dancin' Douggy]

We once played Essendon in round 22. If we won we got pick 5. If we lost we got picks 3 & 6!

I didn't want us to win that day.

Me either.

[Ozza]

I certainly hope we will be trying to win every game for the rest of the season. We have a relatively easy draw from here - time to chalk up a few wins - whilst keeping Jones, Daulhaus, Howard, Wallis and Liberatore in every week (or at least as often as possible) as non-negotiables.

[Desipura]

I certainly hope we will be trying to win every game for the rest of the season. We have a relatively easy draw from here - time to chalk up a few wins - whilst keeping Jones, Daulhaus, Howard, Wallis and Liberatore in every week (or at least as often as possible) as non-negotiables.
Whats an easy draw when you have won only 3 games thus far? Its not 2008, 2009 and 2010 you know.

[Ozza]

Whats an easy draw when you have won only 3 games thus far? Its not 2008, 2009 and 2010 you know.

I'm well aware that we aren't playing as well as the last three seasons. But our next 3 games are Adelaide, Gold Coast and Melbourne - which gives us a very genuine opportunity to be 6 & 8 by round 15 - with hopefully a bit of confidence back in the group.

[LostDoggy]

Melbourne is copping the consequences this year of tanking. Their playing group is up and down week by week, no consistency and no pride in the jumper sometimes, and I believe this is in a big part due to tanking. They've spent too many seasons with their eyes away from the prize.

Tanking gains you draft picks at the expense of your club culture, a culture of demanding success is thrown away for one or two players. Now, consider how long it has taken our club to build said culture and you see the folly in adopting a tanking strategy.

Play to win. If you get smashed, learn from it, but come out the next week ready to win no matter who you play. Decimated side playing the reigning premiers? Stick it to them anyway. Only this attitude will win you flags. Carlton, Melbourne, Richmond, Freo, all doing OK at the moment, but no flags for any of them so far.

[Desipura]

I'm well aware that we aren't playing as well as the last three seasons. But our next 3 games are Adelaide, Gold Coast and Melbourne - which gives us a very genuine opportunity to be 6 & 8 by round 15 - with hopefully a bit of confidence back in the group.

Im not confident we will win 1 of 3.

[LostDoggy]

If we don't take at least two of those three then Rodney will eb on his way. Realisitcally, even where we are, we should take all three.

[LostDoggy]

If we don't take at least two of those three then Rodney will eb on his way. Realisitcally, even where we are, we should take all three.

I'd say we'll beat Adelaide and GC, but Melbourne -- if we get them on the week they're good -- will probably beat us.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Melbourne is copping the consequences this year of tanking. Their playing group is up and down week by week, no consistency and no pride in the jumper sometimes, and I believe this is in a big part due to tanking. They've spent too many seasons with their eyes away from the prize.

Tanking gains you draft picks at the expense of your club culture, a culture of demanding success is thrown away for one or two players. Now, consider how long it has taken our club to build said culture and you see the folly in adopting a tanking strategy.

Play to win. If you get smashed, learn from it, but come out the next week ready to win no matter who you play. Decimated side playing the reigning premiers? Stick it to them anyway. Only this attitude will win you flags. Carlton, Melbourne, Richmond, Freo, all doing OK at the moment, but no flags for any of them so far.

What about Carlton?

[Dancin' Douggy]

Carlton Tanked and tanked and tanked again and they just look sickeningly close to another flag

[Dancin' Douggy]

I'm well aware that we aren't playing as well as the last three seasons. But our next 3 games are Adelaide, Gold Coast and Melbourne - which gives us a very genuine opportunity to be 6 & 8 by round 15 - with hopefully a bit of confidence back in the group.

Ozza, with all due respect, are you blaming the year on a bad draw? And thinking a short run of easybeats will get us back in premiership contention?
Have you seen how awful we've been?

[westdog54]

Ozza, with all due respect, are you blaming the year on a bad draw? And thinking a short run of easybeats will get us back in premiership contention?
Have you seen how awful we've been?

I think what he's saying is that the teams we're facing in the next few weeks are very beatable despite our form and that we have the potential to chalk up a couple of morale boosters.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong Ozza

[LostDoggy]

What about Carlton?


Carlton Tanked and tanked and tanked again and they just look sickeningly close to another flag

Carlton will not win a flag with their current team. I've got $1000 on it with a mate. My money is safe.

[Ghost Dog]

Carlton will not win a flag with their current team. I've got $1000 on it with a mate. My money is safe.

that's a fair bet scragger. You'll be putting pins in your little Chris Judd Voodo doll.:D

[chef]

Carlton will not win a flag with their current team. I've got $1000 on it with a mate. My money is safe.

Imagine Malthouse or Roos coaching Carlton next year, your money wouldn't be so safe.

[Ozza]

Ozza, with all due respect, are you blaming the year on a bad draw? And thinking a short run of easybeats will get us back in premiership contention?
Have you seen how awful we've been?

You are way way off the mark with what I am getting at.
I, in no way, shape or form see us as in premiership contention. I don't see us as being in finals contention.
I also don't think the draw has anything to do with our form whatsover.

My comments were basically that I thought the concept of us 'tanking' after 11 rounds is ridiculous. I'm not ready to accept that we are looking down the barrel of being bottom 3 or 4. The fact that we have 3 very winnable games (regardless of our form - Adelaide, GC and Melbourne are genuine rubbish) means that we can realistically still form some semblance of a season from potentially being 6 and 8.

Accepting that its season over - and we are bottom four doesn't do a great deal for the club on any level.

[Dancin' Douggy]

You are way way off the mark with what I am getting at.
I, in no way, shape or form see us as in premiership contention. I don't see us as being in finals contention.
I also don't think the draw has anything to do with our form whatsover.

My comments were basically that I thought the concept of us 'tanking' after 11 rounds is ridiculous. I'm not ready to accept that we are looking down the barrel of being bottom 3 or 4. The fact that we have 3 very winnable games (regardless of our form - Adelaide, GC and Melbourne are genuine rubbish) means that we can realistically still form some semblance of a season from potentially being 6 and 8.

Accepting that its season over - and we are bottom four doesn't do a great deal for the club on any level.

Well I beg to differ, it does do the club well in draft week.
Pretty hard to argue with that.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Tanking is only relevant if you get a priority pick. The difference between picks 1 & 3 or picks 5 & 8 is negligible

[jeemak]

Well I beg to differ, it does do the club well in draft week.
Pretty hard to argue with that.

Playing poorly isn't going to ensure we pick the right player in the draft though is it? If we finish 12th we'll be rounding out the top ten on draft day, many players between five and ten haven't done a lot throughout their careers.

The club needs to work on changes and give 100% each week. If we've got the talent and we work our arses off we'll win a few. Getting the team playing well enough while sticking to your long term plans to win games as the year closes out is going to be more beneficial than gaining one or two draft positions IMO.

[chef]

Tanking is only relevant if you get a priority pick. The difference between picks 1 & 3 or picks 5 & 8 is negligible

Don't agree, the difference between picks 3 & 4 one year for us was Walsh and Brennen(who we wanted bad). To me one spot can make a hell of a difference.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Some how, i don't think Rocket is planning to lose anymore games this year.

Agree and I think we need to look at the facts that plenty of people at the club are trying to make careers out of the game. "Tanking" will hurt their market value.

That said the likes of Hall, Cooney, Lake should be sent off for surgery if they are not going to get on the park for meaningful contributions for the rest of the season.

[Ozza]

Don't agree, the difference between picks 3 & 4 one year for us was Walsh and Brennen(who we wanted bad). To me one spot can make a hell of a difference.

We could go on forever about the history of the draft and picks 4 against 5 and 3 against 2 and there a dozens of examples that go either way.

We are not in a position of high picks or priority picks - and I would be disgusted if my club didn't try to win games because we thought (for example) pick 11 was worth that much more than pick 16.

[LostDoggy]

that's a fair bet scragger. You'll be putting pins in your little Chris Judd Voodo doll.:D


Imagine Malthouse or Roos coaching Carlton next year, your money wouldn't be so safe.

The bet is actually this: $1000 says the Bombers win their next flag before Carlton does. Bet was placed back when Fevola was still running around in navy blue and the Bombers were a mess, and there is no time limit — first team to win the flag wins the bet. So if Carlton wins a flag this year, I'm cooked. Somehow, I think I'll be alright. I see Carlton as the Bulldogs of 2009 at the moment.


Agree and I think we need to look at the facts that plenty of people at the club are trying to make careers out of the game. "Tanking" will hurt their market value.

That said the likes of Hall, Cooney, Lake should be sent off for surgery if they are not going to get on the park for meaningful contributions for the rest of the season.

Absolutely. Melbourne lost the likes of Brock McLean due to this very reason. If we start tanking, expect a lot of our players to fly the coop. Ward would go north, Griffen or Cooney may go home or to another club that offers up some dough, and before you know it, the losses outweigh the gains.

[LostDoggy]

You'll be right this year, but not so sure about in the future BAS ;)

[Desipura]

The bet is actually this: $1000 says the Bombers win their next flag before Carlton does. Bet was placed back when Fevola was still running around in navy blue and the Bombers were a mess, and there is no time limit — first team to win the flag wins the bet. So if Carlton wins a flag this year, I'm cooked. Somehow, I think I'll be alright. I see Carlton as the Bulldogs of 2009 at the moment.



Absolutely. Melbourne lost the likes of Brock McLean due to this very reason. If we start tanking, expect a lot of our players to fly the coop. Ward would go north, Griffen or Cooney may go home or to another club that offers up some dough, and before you know it, the losses outweigh the gains.

If I may correct you, Melbourne received pick 11 from Carlton, they were rapt to get that compensation for a player they did not want.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

If I may correct you, Melbourne received pick 11 from Carlton, they were rapt to get that compensation for a player they did not want.

Melbourne were big winners out of that trade. They got Gysberts didn't they?