Regeneration is key

[angelopetraglia]

Article from Wayne Schwass: http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/117014/default.aspx

http://mm.afl.com.au/Portals/0/Liberatore246a.jpg

'IF IT ain't broke, don't fix it' seems to be something good teams subconsciously embrace as a result of their success.

During the Brisbane Lions' rein during the early 2000s, the Lions sparingly introduced new players. Changes were made more out of necessity because of injury or suspension rather than wanting to blood new players.

In 2001, the Lions introduced five new players: Jamie Charman, Ashley McGrath, Richard Hadley, Robert Copeland and Dylan McLaren.

The following year only Shane Morrison and Darren Bradshaw debuted and in 2003 Jason Gram, Luke Weller and Jared Brennan made their first appearances.

The Lions' dominance ended in 2004, losing to Port Adelaide in the Grand Final and the wheels finally fell off when they slipped to 11th in 2005 and 13th in 2006.

Three premierships and four Grand finals is a compelling case but even when a club is successful, it's important new faces are introduced.

The approach of the Lions was short-sighted in the sense that they were totally fixated on winning as many premierships as they possibly could and you'd be hard pressed to argue against that.

But because they kept going back to the well with a relatively unchanged line up during this period, when the wheels did finally fall off, they fell off in a big way because they hadn't exposed enough younger players during this period to fill the void once older players moved on.

The Western Bulldogs have followed a similar path to the Brisbane Lions, albeit without the premiership success.

Read on: http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/117014/default.aspx

[LostDoggy]

Not a bad article. It's tough moving players (who have served the club well) on. Wonder why he didn't mention Eagleton? :p

[Remi Moses]

Well thought out article. We've been good that makes it difficult for young players to come through.Just thought they went with one veteran to many last year. Having said that it would have been a very harsh call to unload one of them. Look at Stkilda and Geelong,one keeps playing the youngsters in big games the other decides to get the band back together. Even if we snag a few in the next couple I hope Rocket and the MC keep their nerve and keep playing the kids

[Desipura]

Not a bad article. It's tough moving players (who have served the club well) on. Wonder why he didn't mention Eagleton? :p

Tough decisions need to be made if we want to climb up the ladder sooner than later. I have used the Collingwood analogy on a number of occasions.
I am unsure why we are continually playing the likes of Cross and Huddo

[azabob]

Tough decisions need to be made if we want to climb up the ladder sooner than later. I have used the Collingwood analogy on a number of times.
I am unsure why we are continually playing the likes of Cross and Huddo

I agree you can even add Gibee to the group. Not sure who I prefer Gilbee or Cross in the team.

[Desipura]

I agree you can even add Gibee to the group. Not sure who I prefer Gilbee or Cross in the team.

And Gilbee .....

[Sockeye Salmon]

Why didn't he mention Geelong who only had 6 debutants in 3 years between 2007-2009?

[ledge]

Why didn't he mention Geelong who only had 6 debutants in 3 years between 2007-2009?

Because 4 years later they are still on top.

[LostDoggy]

Because 4 years later they are still on top.

So by Swatta's logic Geelong's wheels, when they do fall off, will fall off in a big way?

I don't think a cookie cutter analogy fits in this case, but he does have a point — we haven't played enough kids. Don't agree with the call on Cross though. Obviously some here don't like him, but the man delivers enough to keep his spot week in week out. Who do you play in his spot? (Back it up with some solid evidence if you're gonna bite)

[chef]

So by Swatta's logic Geelong's wheels, when they do fall off, will fall off in a big way?

I don't think a cookie cutter analogy fits in this case, but he does have a point — we haven't played enough kids. Don't agree with the call on Cross though. Obviously some here don't like him, but the man delivers enough to keep his spot week in week out. Who do you play in his spot? (Back it up with some solid evidence if you're gonna bite)

I would have thought Reid would be the one who could take his spot and he is in good form at Willi ATM. I love Cross's desperation and courage, but he can't kick, makes poor decision and wouldn't be able to out run Minson. He is becoming a liability to our team IMO.

[LostDoggy]

I would have thought Reid would be the one who could take his spot and he is in good form at Willi ATM. I love Cross's desperation and courage, but he can't kick, makes poor decision and wouldn't be able to out run Minson. He is becoming a liability to our team IMO.

Yeah, Reid's a hard one because we haven't seen enough of him at senior level to guage.

[Mantis]

I would have thought Reid would be the one who could take his spot and he is in good form at Willi ATM. I love Cross's desperation and courage, but he can't kick, makes poor decision and wouldn't be able to out run Minson. He is becoming a liability to our team IMO.

And Reid can kick?

[Desipura]

Wait until later in the season when we are mathematically no chance of playing finals.......thats when the likes of Huddo, Cross & Gilbee will most likely make way.
We need to start the transition now!
Minson will most likely continue to play due to his age (not form), at least until Cordy and Roughy are ready to play regular AFL.
I would rather get anonther 8 games into the likes of Roughy and Howard than playing guys on their last legs for the remainder of the season. Do not know what we gain from this?
Mantis, interested in your thoughts?

[Mantis]

Mantis, interested in your thoughts?

Having only seen 4 games this year I am not in a position to offer much, hopefully after seeing a few more games I can add my 2 bobs into the discussions taking place.

In saying that having watched training on Friday and then attending Saturday's game there are some real concerns to where we are at and the next 3 games will give us a very good idea of which path we need to take.

[Desipura]

Having only seen 4 games this year I am not in a position to offer much, hopefully after seeing a few more games I can add my 2 bobs into the discussions taking place.

In saying that having watched training on Friday and then attending Saturday's game there are some real concerns to where we are at and the next 3 games will give us a very good idea of which path we need to take.

Agree........we are not fully looking to the future and are clinging to the past (with the ageing players getting a game). Its like that boxer who went one too many bouts.

We are not a premiership threat this year and should look to move on those players who are not performing to their high standards of yesteryear.

[bornadog]

we are not fully looking to the future and are clinging to the past (with the ageing players getting a game). .

Desi I have to strongly disagree, We have been playing on average around 8 to 9 players every week with less than 50 games and we even had a high of 11 against the Saints. The team needs to be balanced otherwise these young guys will learn nothing.

[chef]

And Reid can kick?

He can kick better than Cross, which isn't saying much.

[GVGjr]

I would have thought Reid would be the one who could take his spot and he is in good form at Willi ATM. I love Cross's desperation and courage, but he can't kick, makes poor decision and wouldn't be able to out run Minson. He is becoming a liability to our team IMO.


Reid has had a shocking run with injuries just about every time he has played in the seniors so it's almost impossible to say that he would be a better than Cross. Whilst you have criticized the kicking skills of Cross (which most would agree) I don't think Reid is a huge upgrade.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Reid has had a shocking run with injuries just about every time he has played in the seniors so it's almost impossible to say that he would be a better than Cross. Whilst you have criticized the kicking skills of Cross (which most would agree) I don't think Reid is a huge upgrade.

It almost cant be overstated just how ridiculously bad Reid's run with injuries has been, so much so that I've never been sure whether he is actually fit enough to run out an AFL game. Obviously Cross has always been a good runner.

Reid has never demonstrated that he is a good kick.

I actually think Cross has been better in the last fortnight

[Desipura]

Desi I have to strongly disagree, We have been playing on average around 8 to 9 players every week with less than 50 games and we even had a high of 11 against the Saints. The team needs to be balanced otherwise these young guys will learn nothing.

How is Roughy learning the senior caper when Hudson and Minson are taking his spot?
How is Wallis developing when Cross is taking his spot?
Thank goodness the MC are getting regular games into Jones, Dahlhaus and Libba as this is our future and we need to try and fastrack their development.

[chef]

Reid has had a shocking run with injuries just about every time he has played in the seniors so it's almost impossible to say that he would be a better than Cross. Whilst you have criticized the kicking skills of Cross (which most would agree) I don't think Reid is a huge upgrade.

Cross is a liability to our team with the way he now plays, I would rather give his spot to a Reid or Hooper or Tutt or Wallis etc and see if they have a future on our list for next year and beyond. As much as he has been a warrior for our side it's a little sad to see him out there unable to do the things he should because his body won't let him.

[bornadog]

Cross is a liability to our team with the way he now plays, I would rather give his spot to a Reid or Hooper or Tutt or Wallis etc and see if they have a future on our list for next year and beyond. As much as he has been a warrior for our side it's a little sad to see him out there unable to do the things he should because his body won't let him.

Can't agree with this and all the negative posts about Cross. Yes he can't kick very far and he is slow and not fashionable, yet he finds the ball on average 30 times a game. We have to balance the team between old and new, we can't just dump all the players over 28 years old in one hit. Cross is a great leader in that he clearly is a role model for training and preparation for a game and his hardness and never say die attitude.

[Maddog37]

It is not just his leg speed but decision making that is slow at present.

[bornadog]

It is not just his leg speed but decision making that is slow at present.

can't agree with that either. Have a look at some of his hand passing when he is on the bottom of a pack. Yes often he is on a wing and has the ball, looks up and no one there so it looks like he doesn't know what he is doing.

His stats show that turnovers and errors are low, in fact he averages only 1.5 critical error per game.

[Desipura]

can't agree with that either. Have a look at some of his hand passing when he is on the bottom of a pack. Yes often he is on a wing and has the ball, looks up and no one there so it looks like he doesn't know what he is doing.

His stats show that turnovers and errors are low, in fact he averages only 1.5 critical error per game.

Are they forward kicks? How many result in a goal.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Can't agree with this and all the negative posts about Cross. Yes he can't kick very far and he is slow and not fashionable, yet he finds the ball on average 30 times a game. We have to balance the team between old and new, we can't just dump all the players over 28 years old in one hit. Cross is a great leader in that he clearly is a role model for training and preparation for a game and his hardness and never say die attitude.

I agree bornadog

Im not willing to throw Cross out just yet. I know he has had a bad year but to suggest that Hooper deserves, and would be of more value is not view I can agree with.

We need to introduce new players, and have been doing that, but wholesale changes because we are looking for scapegoats wont work

Even at the end of the year we will only have what 10 changes to the list. IMO Cross is unlikely to be among them so we have to figure out ways in which he can continue to be useful.

[Greystache]

can't agree with that either. Have a look at some of his hand passing when he is on the bottom of a pack. Yes often he is on a wing and has the ball, looks up and no one there so it looks like he doesn't know what he is doing.

His stats show that turnovers and errors are low, in fact he averages only 1.5 critical error per game.

He plays with the specific goal of avoiding turnovers, chipping sideways and not taking the game on will make your efficiency look good, but it kills the momentum of the team in attack and allows the opposition to set up in defence.

[Remi Moses]

So what to do with the same type Cross, Boyd , Libba, Wallis and Sam Reid?
Can't keep them all!!

[Jeanette54]

So what to do with the same type Cross, Boyd , Libba, Wallis and Sam Reid?
Can't keep them all!!

Here I have to say I love players of this type, and no team can have enough of them. These guys are the ones who actually go and get the ball (in and under is the modern term I guess). I don't know what the stats are for interceptions (or even if they keep such a stat), but I will bet that Boyd and Cross are one/two in that department.

Libba hardly ever wastes an opportunity and Wallis is shaping to be as good in that department. Matty and Daniel are leaders by example and thats important in both onfield play and club culture.

Sam Reid has had such restricted game time that it is difficult to ascertain his potential at senior level.

I think it would be better to look at the positives and get off Crossies back. He is third on disposals (behind Boyd & Griffin), second in the tackle count and first in the number of marks taken.

What has the guy got to do to make you all happy.

[Maddog37]

It is not about being on anyones back. It is about looking at the ways to improve the team next year and beyond. As much as we love the players the game changes and players get older.

Crossy is a champ in my book and one of the first picked each week no doubt but moving forward that will change.:)

[chef]

Here I have to say I love players of this type, and no team can have enough of them. These guys are the ones who actually go and get the ball (in and under is the modern term I guess). I don't know what the stats are for interceptions (or even if they keep such a stat), but I will bet that Boyd and Cross are one/two in that department.

Libba hardly ever wastes an opportunity and Wallis is shaping to be as good in that department. Matty and Daniel are leaders by example and thats important in both onfield play and club culture.

Sam Reid has had such restricted game time that it is difficult to ascertain his potential at senior level.

I think it would be better to look at the positives and get off Crossies back. He is third on disposals (behind Boyd & Griffin), second in the tackle count and first in the number of marks taken.

What has the guy got to do to make you all happy.

How do you rate his disposal and decision making?

[bornadog]

How do you rate his disposal and decision making?

Its easy to sit back and say lets get rid of Cross, but until you show me a player that gets 30 disposals per game, consistently, then I will say lets replace him. The fact is even guys like Ward, who have clocked up 50 games, still struggle to be consistent and struggle consistently to get their hands on the ball.

[Desipura]

Its easy to sit back and say lets get rid of Cross, but until you show me a player that gets 30 disposals per game, consistently, then I will say lets replace him. The fact is even guys like Ward, who have clocked up 50 games, still struggle to be consistent and struggle consistently to get their hands on the ball.

How about answering my questions to you rather than picking and choosing which ones to answer?

[GVGjr]

I agree bornadog

Im not willing to throw Cross out just yet. I know he has had a bad year but to suggest that Hooper deserves, and would be of more value is not view I can agree with.

We need to introduce new players, and have been doing that, but wholesale changes because we are looking for scapegoats wont work

Even at the end of the year we will only have what 10 changes to the list. IMO Cross is unlikely to be among them so we have to figure out ways in which he can continue to be useful.

Ditto for me. Cross might be down on his form from previous seasons but I would back him to work through it. He's a proven performer and I see no value in dropping him just to bring in a youngster who hasn't earned it.

We may have to use him in different roles like we did against the Saints but I'd be confident he can adapt.

[Topdog]

Its easy to sit back and say lets get rid of Cross, but until you show me a player that gets 30 disposals per game, consistently, then I will say lets replace him. The fact is even guys like Ward, who have clocked up 50 games, still struggle to be consistent and struggle consistently to get their hands on the ball.

Cross doesn't get 30 a game. I'd rather 18 per game that go forward than 25 that go sideways and go slllloooowww

[chef]

Its easy to sit back and say lets get rid of Cross, but until you show me a player that gets 30 disposals per game, consistently, then I will say lets replace him. The fact is even guys like Ward, who have clocked up 50 games, still struggle to be consistent and struggle consistently to get their hands on the ball.

What does Cross really average?

He had 30 against GC, what does he average against the better sides.



Cross doesn't get 30 a game. I'd rather 18 per game that go forward than 25 that go sideways and go slllloooowww

Me too.

[Desipura]

Ditto for me. Cross might be down on his form from previous seasons but I would back him to work through it. He's a proven performer and I see no value in dropping him just to bring in a youngster who hasn't earned it.

We may have to use him in different roles like we did against the Saints but I'd be confident he can adapt.
Cmon Gary, how many players make a career playing as a defensive forward alone?

[LostDoggy]

Defensive forward must be the new black. A spot where you put someone who has no position.
If Cross is gonna play in the forward 50 even as a defensive type, he has to kick goals given the opportunity.

[LostDoggy]

Ditto. How about they all just chase, tackle and apply pressure when the ball is in the foward third (at minimum)?

[bornadog]

Cross doesn't get 30 a game. I'd rather 18 per game that go forward than 25 that go sideways and go slllloooowww


What does Cross really average?

He had 30 against GC, he does he average against the better sides. Me too.

His average this year is down to 25 per game as he has been playing a more defensive role., ie tagging role.

The comment on 25 sideways is just your perception and not reality.

[chef]

His average this year is down to 25 per game as he has been playing a more defensive role., ie tagging role.

The comment on 25 sideways is just your perception and not reality.

It's not far from reality.

[GVGjr]

Cmon Gary, how many players make a career playing as a defensive forward alone?

I didn't say he would do that role every week. It shows to me that he can be used in a couple of other roles within our best 22.

[Topdog]

His average this year is down to 25 per game as he has been playing a more defensive role., ie tagging role.

The comment on 25 sideways is just your perception and not reality.

Even when he goes forward he has no penetration in his kick at all.

[strebla]

Sorry Desi but when on a wing he is the one who goes sideways yes to a running Midmielder or half back who does kick well to dump him would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater he is down a bit this year but as with Lake I will back him to come back better next year.