The GWS issue

[soupman]

As much of the discussion amongst football supporters of the bulldogs has been centered upon recently the GWS ability to sign uncontracted players such as Callan Ward looms as a scary prospect. Quite rightly many supporters are outraged that such a promising long term player may be about to be taken from us, but is losing him actually the worst case scenario?

Now the danger with not losing Ward is that GWS just give their money to the next player down the line. Rumours would suggest that player is Easton Wood. So can we afford to lose Wood, especially if we have tied up what would likely be in excess of $400k for Ward in an already tight salary cap?

Now if we do somehow manage to keep Ward, and Wood, then what do we do with the next player targeted by GWS? I am unsure of contract statuses but Roughead could be a candidate.

Now the question is not whether they are worth keeping, but what are the implications of losing them?

Take the 3 above mentioned players.

Callan Ward has shown that he is going to be a very good midfielder/half forward. He is hard at it, good in finals, can get the footy, can influence matches and is still very young. He has also been talked up as a leadership prospect and has sentimental value in being a local boy. However, his disposal is often hit and miss, he isn't quick and plays a position and style that we have an abundance of players for. His leadership abilities are still to be formally recognized by the club and talk of him being a guaranteed future captain mean nothing when we've heard the same thing already about Higgins and even Wallis. Further to this he is not worth the money being talked about, not at this stage. If he gets given that contract it's on potential and not performance, which is a dangerous pathway. Ward is the most un-unique of the trio mentioned.

Easton Wood has shown that he has some very exciting attributes. He has dash and daring, is a very impressive athlete and looks to be a unique part of our back lines future. He is unlikely to demand a large wage, especially if an offer from GWS never comes, and could be a very dangerous player in coming years. His drawbacks are that he is still largely being picked on potential, isn't a "natural" footballer and probably won't be a match winner.

Jordan Roughead has shown that he has a big future as a ruck man who can also play forward. Unlike Minson and Hudson he is not a liability outside of ruck contests and poses an exciting prospect resting deep in the forward line. Like Wood he is unlikely to demand a high wage if GWS never come knocking and he plays a position that we need players with high potential to be coming through in. And onto of all this, he has the sentimental value of growing up a Bulldogs supporter. His cons are that he is injury prone, can go missing in matches and that his skills aren't great.

Now I understand no one wants to see Ward leave, but I think many are overlooking the implications of him staying. He is the most easily replaceable player of the likely prospects to leave; we have an abundance of average paced half forwards/mids, is going to get the highest compensation and him going has the most positive effect on our salary cap. Unfortunately we are not going to be able to offload an Addison or Stack to GWS, and I personally feel that the argument for him to stay has been well heard, but I'm not sure too many have properly thought out the consequences of him staying beyond him becoming a Chris Grant like legend of the club.

[boydogs]

Thought provoking thread, but I think you're making a couple of false assumptions

- Ward's quality is such that he is not easy to replace
- Keeping Ward does not necessarily mean we lose someone else

[Hotdog60]

Radio commentators have said that Will Minson is also on the GWS radar, Gold Coast made the wrong move by taking Josh Fraser who was going to be shunted by Collingwood anyway and Will would have been the better prospect.
But with Huddo aging we need Will to over see the development of both Rougheah and Cordy.

[chef]

Now I understand no one wants to see Ward leave, but I think many are overlooking the implications of him staying. He is the most easily replaceable player of the likely prospects to leave; we have an abundance of average paced half forwards/mids, is going to get the highest compensation and him going has the most positive effect on our salary cap. Unfortunately we are not going to be able to offload an Addison or Stack to GWS, and I personally feel that the argument for him to stay has been well heard, but I'm not sure too many have properly thought out the consequences of him staying beyond him becoming a Chris Grant like legend of the club.

Serious?

[LostDoggy]

Serious?

Midfielders are a dime a dozen, plenty of them come through the system every year.

But i do agree, would be a massive hole to fill.

[chef]

Midfielders are a dime a dozen, plenty of them come through the system every year.

But i do agree, would be a massive hole to fill.

There is no way Ward is going to be easier to replace than Roughead or Wood.

[Rocco Jones]

I get what soupaman (and Glove35) is saying about us needing a ruckman or mobile defender than a hard nosed midfielder but what he is ignoring is the fact that Ward is a superior player to both Roughead and Wood.

Ward might play in a role that is less important to us but he the talent gap more than makes it up IMO.

Also do we really need to lose all three? I don't think/hope it is as simple as that. We have a few veterans retiring, we will probably trade Hill and replace him on list with a rookie, we can trade out/deslist other players who are earning a bit (like we were going to do with Eagle a couple of years back) and replace them with 1st year players.

[Mofra]

Midfielders are a dime a dozen, plenty of them come through the system every year.
How many good ones who can play inside, outside, and finish well?

I want to keep Ward. The Roughead point is moot as he is not out of contract at the end of this year so isn't in direct competition with the first two players mentioned.

[soupman]

There is no way Ward is going to be easier to replace than Roughead or Wood.

I think losing Roughead would hurt us much more than losing Ward would. Roughead is the only ruckman on our list that has shown he could be of a high AFL standard over a prolonged period of time. Cordy is lucky to play 3 games in a row in the VFL, and we are all aware of the limitations of Minson. Hudson is gone this year too which would mean Roughead would have to step up as our second ruck.

I'm not saying Ward is easy to replace, and I'm not saying he isn't quality. He is. However, I'm not sure he's worth the financial pain and loss of another promising prospect when I believe we can cover his loss.

[DragzLS1]

Brother, we pay lake $600k to play at willi.. I think $400k for ward is worth it and we can afford it.. It's not always about the money and we have reduced our dept..

[Topdog]

Brother, we pay lake $600k to play at willi.. I think $400k for ward is worth it and we can afford it.. It's not always about the money and we have reduced our dept..

If we pay Ward more than he is worth then we will have less 44 available in the cap. When the next person is out of contract we might not have enough to pay them what they are worth. That is a big problem.

[bornadog]

If we pay Ward more than he is worth then we will have less 44 available in the cap. When the next person is out of contract we might not have enough to pay them what they are worth. That is a big problem.

GWS can also make offers to uncontracted players in 2012, so they have two years to signup players. We could lose a third player:mad:

[Mantis]

GWS can also make offers to uncontracted players in 2012, so they have two years to signup players. We could lose a third player:mad:

Pretty sure you can only lose one uncontracted player per club over the 2 years. However they can trade for someone else like GC did with Brennan.

[bornadog]

Pretty sure you can only lose one uncontracted player per club over the 2 years. However they can trade for someone else like GC did with Brennan.

Thats good. So if we re-sign Ward we have to go through this next year again, presuming there are uncontracted players.

[The Coon Dog]

Thats good. So if we re-sign Ward we have to go through this next year again, presuming there are uncontracted players.

Then sit back & wait for free agency the following year! :eek:

[Mofra]

Then sit back & wait for free agency the following year! :eek:
Are we really that poorly placed in terms of free agency?
McLean basically wanted to leave Melbourne because of the commute between his home in Marybyrnong to Casey - as one of the inner city clubs, I would hope that commuting time and facilities come into the equation.

[The Coon Dog]

Are we really that poorly placed in terms of free agency?


I think many clubs will suffer.

Just to use my Griff example again. Say he comes out of contract in 2012 & is on $500K. Richmond then offer him a contract worth say $750K. We can match it or let him go, either way we lose as we have paid 'overs' which will have a significant salary cap impact or we've lost a player.

I used Richmond as an example as its well known they're only paying 92.5% of the salary cap now & are positioning themselves financially for free agency. Also GC & GWS will have bucket loads of cash to throw around.

If you have a couple of decent players coming out of contract it could be twice as bad.


How free agency will work (http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=9102)

[Cyberdoggie]

I think many clubs will suffer.

Just to use my Griff example again. Say he comes out of contract in 2012 & is on $500K. Richmond then offer him a contract worth say $750K. We can match it or let him go, either way we lose as we have paid 'overs' which will have a significant salary cap impact or we've lost a player.

I used Richmond as an example as its well known they're only paying 92.5% of the salary cap now & are positioning themselves financially for free agency. Also GC & GWS will have bucket loads of cash to throw around.

If you have a couple of decent players coming out of contract it could be twice as bad.


How free agency will work (http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=9102)

It is in a way turning the competition more into what i hate, and that is the free wheeling and dealing of soccer and american sports.

I can't stand how rich and powerful clubs can use their wealth to take players from the poorer clubs and thus maintain their strength.

What's the point in barracking or supporting a struggling team in the premier league. You will almost never taste success unless you pull one out of your $^% one season buy picking up a few unknown players that have a ripping year, in which case you can be guaranteed that Man U or Chelsea will buy those players off you the following year and you will be back down the toilet.

You don't see GWS having any luck taking players form the best team on and off the field in Collingwood, or even Essendon or Carlton.
Their top 2 targets are from Melbourne and the Bulldogs.

[LostDoggy]

How many good ones who can play inside, outside, and finish well?

There is a fair few throughout AFL lists.

Cooney, Griffen, Kerr, Judd, Selwood, Bartel, Ablett, Dal Santo, Barlow, Black etc...

[LostDoggy]

There is no way Ward is going to be easier to replace than Roughead or Wood.

Don't underestimate the impact Roughead leaving would have on our list, he is going to be an important part of our club going forward.

[chef]

Don't underestimate the impact Roughead leaving would have on our list, he is going to be an important part of our club going forward.

But your talking about potential over performance. There is every chance Roughead may end up being an average player while Ward has already shown he is a gun. Who knows, Cordy may end up being a better player and a better number two to support Minson.

[w3design]

This is a very interesting thread. I do get the point you are making and it's well thought through. Some other points though:

While I understand Wood has unique attributes, at least at the moment he lacks footy smarts or some of that natural footy instincts..something Ward has in abundance. The trend lately is for the footy world to get seduced by the gifted athletes and hope footy skills can be taught/grafted on. Tom Williams is one who comes to mind that has struggled in this area. Ward on the other hand has that priceless 'see ball, get ball' capability.

Ward also has courage that is rare in the 'dime-a-dozen' midfielder. In virtually every match he takes a mark running against the flight of the ball. For all their great attributes I don't recollect Cooney or Higgins being able to execute this skill. These are the things that win finals and inspire team mates. In his short career Ward has also produced in big games, again, a characteristic not easily found.

Lastly I feel there is something intangible but vital about Ward signing that can't be quantified. It would state that we are a club with a future, it would be a vote of confidence, it would send a message that the bad old days when elite players went elsewhere are gone. It's been a bit of an annus horribilis, retaining Ward would somehow mean far more than his undoubted worth as a player.

[Desipura]

Ward is not a gun as yet, he may or may not become one.

[Jasper]

Ward is not a gun as yet, he may or may not become one.

Agree. Crawford indicated he thought Ward would not get a game in the Pies midfield. I reckon Sidebottome and Wellingham are ahead of him at the moment. It goes without saying that Pendlebury, Swan and Thomas - who by the way are guns - are miles ahead of Ward.

I am starting to think that if Ward wants to go (but wants to preserve his name) we should look to sign Ward for a year, on the understanding we trade him. Get on the front foot do a deal that suits us that includes maybe one of GWS players they have to trade??? Is this even possible?

[divvydan]

Agree. Crawford indicated he thought Ward would not get a game in the Pies midfield. I reckon Sidebottome and Wellingham are ahead of him at the moment. It goes without saying that Pendlebury, Swan and Thomas - who by the way are guns - are miles ahead of Ward.

I am starting to think that if Ward wants to go (but wants to preserve his name) we should look to sign Ward for a year, on the understanding we trade him. Get on the front foot do a deal that suits us that includes maybe one of GWS players they have to trade??? Is this even possible?

The 'Heffernan' rule comes to mind. Officially it's as follows;


18.5 No AFL Club shall exchange any Player unless the Player has been given as much notice as possible by the AFL Club of its intention to trade without any duress being
applied by the AFL Club, its employees or agents to the player and the Player genuinely consents to the trade.

18.6 In the event that the provisions of sub clause 18.5 operates, in the reasonable
opinion of the AFLPA, in a manner inconsistent with the spirit and intention of the
parties in introducing that clause, the following provision shall apply from a date to
be agreed between the AFLPA and the AFL:

“Save and except where in the opinion of the General Manager – Football Operations, there are exceptional and compelling circumstances that make it harsh and unconscionable for a Player not to be exchanged, no AFL Club shall exchange any Player who has not completed at least one AFL Season under his current contract with the AFL Club or such lesser period as agreed between AFL and AFLPA”.

The last paragraph suggests that you cannot trade a player in the first year of their most recent contract unless there are exceptional and compelling circumstances. I'm not sure what would come under that ruling, maybe something like the Carey situation at North Melbourne but I would be surprised if Adrian Anderson would allow it.

[Mantis]

I am starting to think that if Ward wants to go (but wants to preserve his name) we should look to sign Ward for a year, on the understanding we trade him. Get on the front foot do a deal that suits us that includes maybe one of GWS players they have to trade??? Is this even possible?

Would the offer to Ward be the same at the end of 2012 as it is now (the one being reported anyway)?... I doubt it.

Through reports GWS have given Ward the 'Once in a lifetime' spiel about this contract and I doubt very much they would extend the offer into the future.

[Sockeye Salmon]

The 'Heffernan' rule comes to mind. Officially it's as follows;



The last paragraph suggests that you cannot trade a player in the first year of their most recent contract unless there are exceptional and compelling circumstances. I'm not sure what would come under that ruling, maybe something like the Carey situation at North Melbourne but I would be surprised if Adrian Anderson would allow it.

I think there is aso an 'if everyone agrees' exception as well. Considering no trade can happen - ever - unless everyone agrees, it renders the entire rule pointless.



NB. No player can ever get traded against his will. The player being traded (or his manager if he has power of attorney) has to sign the trade documents, if you don't want to go, don't sign (see Bradshaw/Rischitelli re Fevola trade).

[soupman]

But your talking about potential over performance. There is every chance Roughead may end up being an average player while Ward has already shown he is a gun. Who knows, Cordy may end up being a better player and a better number two to support Minson.

Thats all well and good but structurally and in terms of list management Roughead is more important. Cordy may end up being better, but with his injur record we cannot be relying on him to play more than a handful of games in the near future. Theoretically at the end of this year Hudson retires, and if we lose Roughead our ruck stocks read spomething like Will Minson...Ayce Cordy...Eddie Prato. That is very thin ruck ranks, and the best we can do to cover that up is a) trade for an average ruckman who is surplus to requirements at another club, who is unlikely to be able to play a meaningful role as a forward or elsewhere around the ground and basically repeats this year Minson and Hudson in the same side dilemna, b) draft a mature age ruck from a state league, who is likely to be similiar to scenario a, or c) draft a promising young ruck who won't be ready for 3-4 years at least.

Roughead potential for mine, and the hole he fills with in our list as a promising young ruck who is capable of playing AFL, means that his potential is worth more than Wards performance atm. Roughead going puts a big dint in our finals chances in the near future.


I really liked Remember54's post. You raise a few good points that I haven't addressed, not least the one regarding the intangible value of Ward staying. It would be a great stand, something fantastic for us to be able to reference when speaking about our club and it's loyal group of players.

But again i keep coming back to the point I'm trying to make. Losing Ward isn't necessarily the worst case scenario. There are undoubtably big benefits in keeping him. He is a very talented player, the type you love having play for your club and the type you hate to lose. I would prefer not to lose him, but I fear the cost of keeping him may be too great.

[ledge]

Why is everyone saying Hudson will be gone, do we know that for sure?

[Topdog]

Because he has been poor in about 10 of the 16 rounds so far ledge. More just an assumption that father time has caught up with him and he will play only 1 in 2 good games maybe less this year. Can't afford to be taking that next year too.

[chef]

Why is everyone saying Hudson will be gone, do we know that for sure?

Do you think his form warrants another season?

[Jasper]

Would the offer to Ward be the same at the end of 2012 as it is now (the one being reported anyway)?... I doubt it.

Through reports GWS have given Ward the 'Once in a lifetime' spiel about this contract and I doubt very much they would extend the offer into the future.

Mate I am not saying at end of 12, do it at end of 11, assuming all parties agree as mentioned with a yr to go. So I am saying we sign him so he is not uncontracted, and doesn't count as an uncontracted player for GWS. Idea might be that nonetheless GWS agree to not touch any of our other uncontracted players. The idea might be that all parties announce it early with Bulldogs blessing and this allows GWS some good PR while maintaining our list (would only do this final step if we are out of finals race)..

[ledge]

Do you think his form warrants another season?

He is the only ruckman we have who is consistant and you know will be competitive against anyone.
I think he does if we dont start getting Roughy and Cordy games this year.
Can you name another tall in our squad who is better ?

[chef]

He is the only ruckman we have who is consistant and you know will be competitive against anyone.
I think he does if we dont start getting Roughy and Cordy games this year.
Can you name another tall in our squad who is better ?

Minson, I would happily have him as our number 1 ruck and he had performed at least as well as Hudson when given this role. I have enjoyed having Huddo in our team but he is coming to the end of a short but important career with the Dogs.