Teams Round 21 v Essendon

[bornadog]

IN: Djerrkura, Markovic, Morris, Higgins, C.Howard

OUT: Sherman, Williams, Barlow, Mulligan, Hooper


Western Bulldogs

B: Easton Wood, Dale Morris, Ryan Hargrave
HB: Shaun Higgins, Lukas Markovic, Robert Murphy
C: Christian Howard, Matthew Boyd, Daniel Cross
HF: Callan Ward, Liam Jones, Luke Dahlhaus
F: Nathan Djerrkura, Barry Hall, Daniel Giansiracusa
Foll: Ben Hudson, Ryan Griffen, Liam Picken

I/C: Brennan Stack, Jordan Roughead, Thomas Liberatore, Jayden Schofield

Emg: James Mulligan, Ayce Cordy, Ed Barlow

Essendon

B: Mark McVeigh, Jake Carlisle, Dustin Fletcher
HB: Ricky Dyson, David Myers, Tayte Pears
C: Jake Melksham, Jobe Watson, Dyson Heppell
HF: Alwyn Davey, Michael Hurley, David Zaharakis
F: Stewart Crameri, Patrick Ryder, Leroy Jetta
Foll: David Hille, Brent Stanton, Heath Hocking

I/C: Angus Monfries, Kyle Reimers, Kyle Hardingham, Ben Howlett
Emg: Andrew Welsh, Tom Bellchambers, Michael Ross
Milestones: David Zaharakis - 50 games

[1eyedog]

Don't understand DJ for Barlow but there you go. We look better down back with Morris in but I'm scared to death of Hargrave on either Hurley or Crameri, which looks like it's going to happen.

Essendon look very good on paper with Watson, Hocking and now Pears back in.

[Mantis]

Backline looks extremely under-sized.

[G-Mo77]

Happy with Howard coming in. Morris back is huge. Higgins expected.

Pretty upset about Mulligan being dropped. I wasn't to happy about Marko being dropped for him last game but given our position I saw it is a good chance to see what we have on our list. He gets 1 game and then he's shown the door.

[Mitcha]

Boydy was just on SEN telling everyone that Ayce Cordy is our tenth debutante this year. late change likely???

[Cyberdoggie]

Boydy was just on SEN telling everyone that Ayce Cordy is our tenth debutante this year. late change likely???

Wow if that is the case then that is a big slip up from the captain of the club.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Why play games? Is the inclusion of Cordy really going to 'throw' Essendon's plans out?

God.

[1eyedog]

Hargrave for Cordy would be a better option down back with Cordy going to the resting ruck and then Marko going to Crameri and Morris on Hurley.

[always right]

Why play games? Is the inclusion of Cordy really going to 'throw' Essendon's plans out?

God.

I think they'd be more interested in who is out for Cordy. Mind you looking at the sides on paper, the outcome of this match could be ugly. Essendon probably don't care about any of our defenders except for Murphy.

[Cyberdoggie]

Don't understand DJ for Barlow but there you go. We look better down back with Morris in but I'm scared to death of Hargrave on either Hurley or Crameri, which looks like it's going to happen.

Essendon look very good on paper with Watson, Hocking and now Pears back in.

I guess it's because Cordy will be playing, so having Barlow in there with Cordy, Roughead, Hudson would be too many talls.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I think they'd be more interested in who is out for Cordy. Mind you looking at the sides on paper, the outcome of this match could be ugly. Essendon probably don't care about any of our defenders except for Murphy.

That's the point though.

Playing games is pointless, especially when you're so far down the ladder.

[G-Mo77]

Why play games? Is the inclusion of Cordy really going to 'throw' Essendon's plans out?

God.

I've never seen the reasoning for playing games anyway. We always seem to do it. I'd rather show more confidence in our selection than throwing up pointless smoke screens which every man and his dog can see coming.

[Rocco Jones]

Why play games? Is the inclusion of Cordy really going to 'throw' Essendon's plans out?

God.

We have a coach desperately clinging onto his coach. I am not having a go at Rocket there, he has a job he loves and wants to keep it, I'd do the same.

Really didn't get Mulligan in for Markovic against the Eagles and I really don't get dropping Barlow. Seems like they are desperately to prove DJ wasn't a waste.

No Vez is really disappointing. Worst case scenario is that the MC are proven right about his workrate not being up to it which means he gets an out and out reality check before the pre-season.

[1eyedog]

I guess it's because Cordy will be playing, so having Barlow in there with Cordy, Roughead, Hudson would be too many talls.

Essendon have 8 blokes in there over 192cm tall and 4 over 195cm tall.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

We have a coach desperately clinging onto his coach. I am not having a go at Rocket there, he has a job he loves and wants to keep it, I'd do the same.

Really didn't get Mulligan in for Markovic against the Eagles and I really don't get dropping Barlow. Seems like they are desperately to prove DJ wasn't a waste.

No Vez is really disappointing. Worst case scenario is that the MC are proven right about his workrate not being up to it which means he gets an out and out reality check before the pre-season.

It doesn't help him coach the team to victory.

Heck, it could have the reverse effect.

"Ayce, you're in this week ... but we won't name you until 5 minutes before you run out because 'player x' is more valuable to us than you are, so hopefully Essendon's plans hit the fan and you can come in under the guard."

Stupid. Put confidence in the player to play.

Agree re; Vez. Another stupid decision, especially given they keep giving games to Hooper, DJ, Mulligan, Markovic and Barlow. Five blokes with a very limited skill set.

[bornadog]

Essendon have 8 blokes in there over 192cm tall and 4 over 195cm tall.

and thats why they haven't won too many more games than us.

[bornadog]

It doesn't help him coach the team to victory.

Heck, it could have the reverse effect.

"Ayce, you're in this week ... but we won't name you until 5 minutes before you run out because 'player x' is more valuable to us than you are, so hopefully Essendon's plans hit the fan and you can come in under the guard."

Stupid. Put confidence in the player to play.

Agree re; Vez. Another stupid decision, especially given they keep giving games to Hooper, DJ, Mulligan, Markovic and Barlow. Five blokes with a very limited skill set.

Still banging on about Vez when he hasn't played a decent game all year and he doesn't have the tank. He needs a big preseason to get his body right for AFL football. He should know what is required, he had a few games at the Swans.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Still banging on about Vez when he hasn't played a decent game all year and he doesn't have the tank. He needs a big preseason to get his body right for AFL football. He should know what is required, he had a few games at the Swans.

Honestly. How can you justify giving games to Hooper and Mulligan, and yet not Veszpremi? Did Hooper's 12 possessions in 5 or 6 games of football impress you that much?

I remember playing all of Hill, Stack and Grant when they didn't deserve it. None of them were 'fit' enough.

And that was when we were a top side. Shouldn't need to remind you where we sit currently.

[bornadog]

Honestly. How can you justify giving games to Hooper and Mulligan, and yet not Veszpremi? Did Hooper's 12 possessions in 5 or 6 games of football impress you that much?

I remember playing all of Hill, Stack and Grant when they didn't deserve it. None of them were 'fit' enough.

And that was when we were a top side. Shouldn't need to remind you where we sit currently.

So your not happy with playing 9 kids on Saturday?

Have you seen Vez play this year? Did he impress you? I would love to see him play, but he just ain't up to it at this minute.

I would like to see Ayce and Tutt get a go before the season is finished.

[Maddog37]

Maybe Ayce will be a late change to keep the pressure off him in the lead up.

[Greystache]

Essendon have 8 blokes in there over 192cm tall and 4 over 195cm tall.

I can only count five over 192cm.

[azabob]

Glad Schofield, Howard & Roughead are playing. Hopefully they are able to hold their spots for the remainder of the year.

Surprised Liberatore is still in the team. I know we just had the week off but he has looked very tired the last few weeks.

Hopefully we get another look at Wallis before the year is out. He has looked a step behind the speed of AFL when he has had his chance.

[Rocco Jones]

I guess it's because Cordy will be playing, so having Barlow in there with Cordy, Roughead, Hudson would be too many talls.

Barlow is only a 'tall' in the record. His obvious strength is his elite engine, Shaun Higgins makes us more top heavy than Barlow!

[Rocco Jones]

Still banging on about Vez when he hasn't played a decent game all year and he doesn't have the tank. He needs a big preseason to get his body right for AFL football. He should know what is required, he had a few games at the Swans.

I know you're a big Eade fan (nothing wrong with that, I am a fan of him overall too) but a criticism of him is that he can write guys off. Why not give him a game to see how he goes? If he plays well, great, if he doesn't, he gets a great reality check just in time for pre-season. Just saying he should know what to expect and he has to decide it on his own etc is just cutting your nose to spit your face type stuff. His success/failure isn't mutually exclusive from ours.

A pretty uninspiring team IMO.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

So your not happy with playing 9 kids on Saturday?

Have you seen Vez play this year? Did he impress you? I would love to see him play, but he just ain't up to it at this minute.

I would like to see Ayce and Tutt get a go before the season is finished.

We've been playing the wrong players half the time. As I said - Hooper and Mulligan are two that are pointless. They aren't AFL standard and never (ever) will be. Barlow has played 2? decent games, but that's about it. Ditto DJ. Why do we persist with them and not Vez (or to a lesser degree, Tutt?).

I've seen Vez play about 4 times this year so I am no genius. From what I've seen, the concerns are warranted, but you (much like the MC) are overlooking two things.
A) The boy has obvious talent. His last few weeks have been OK without being a stand out. His attack on the ball is very good and his skills are very good.
&
B) Our current situation. We're a terrible side with only 1 or 2 players capable of kicking multiple goals up forward. We have nothing to lose by playing Vez - especially this late in the season. As Rocco said, the worst that can happen is he plays crap and is given an ultimatum over the pre-season. We're talking about young men here - since when do they "know" what they have to do, and go and do it?

Plenty of players have got games this year when they aren't "up to it". Fact is, the MC have been pathetic for the past 2-3 years and whilst we have blooded youth this season, possible key players haven't got enough game time.

[LostDoggy]

Agree TBB. Defending the non-selection of Vez due to him not tearing apart games on a regular basis has been disproven by past selections you noted.

Vez showed determination and multiple second efforts against Claremont last week. If lack of tank is the excuse then Libba shouldn't be getting a run. He's blown up many times this season, often early in the game.

[1eyedog]

and thats why they haven't won too many more games than us.

They'll be playing finals. And most of their goals come from their smalls.

They are an up and coming team.

[1eyedog]

I can only count five over 192cm.

Fair enough.

Hurley 193cm
Ryder 196cm
Hille 202cm
Fletcher 198cm
Carlisle 198cm

Right?

Bellchambers at 202cm as an emergency if you want to get picky.

The Bombers web site lists;

Pears 191cm
Myers 191cm

These two are listed anywhere between 191-193cm across three sites I looked at, so apologies there.

I guessed with Crameri. he is much shorter than I anticipated. Regardless, these three all play tall.

[Greystache]

Fair enough.

Hurley 193cm
Ryder 196cm
Hille 202cm
Fletcher 198cm
Carlisle 198cm

Right?

The Bombers web site lists;

Pears 191cm
Myers 191cm

These two are listed anywhere between 191-193cm across three sites I looked at, so apologies there.

I guessed with Crameri. he is much shorter than I anticipated. Regardless, these three all play tall.

Crameri is tailor made for Morris, same size and plays tall. Good luck with that Stu!

Myers is a half back flanker who uses his kicking skllls to set up play. He's clumsy and slow for the game he plays, but most importantly he's an absolute spud!

Pears plays bigger than his stature, but I reckon Bazza will expose him.

[1eyedog]

Crameri is tailor made for Morris, same size and plays tall. Good luck with that Stu!

Myers is a half back flanker who uses his kicking skllls to set up play. He's clumsy and slow for the game he plays, but most importantly he's an absolute spud!

Pears plays bigger than his stature, but I reckon Bazza will expose him.

Agree with this.

There are not enough key backs in our team to cover Hurley and one of Ryder and Hille.

[Rocco Jones]

Like a suspicious girlfriend who has gained a fair bit of weight*, I have a feeling Greystache is seeing another team.


* Just in case it was too subtle, this was an analogy for our shitful season.

[Sedat]

A pretty uninspiring team IMO.
I tend to agree, although I thought the same thing when I saw the teams v West Coke and v Melbourne and we performed exceptionally in 1 and a half of these matches.

Hooper staying in mystifies me, and whilst i was scathing of Mulligan last time, not much point having him and Marko as part of a weekly revolving door. Barlow's omission staggers me - he is versatility personified that gives the team far better balance.

Hope my concerns are wiped away and we smash the Bombers.

[Rocco Jones]

I tend to agree, although I thought the same thing when I saw the teams v West Coke and v Melbourne and we performed exceptionally in 1 and a half of these matches.

Hooper staying in mystifies me, and whilst i was scathing of Mulligan last time, not much point having him and Marko as part of a weekly revolving door. Barlow's omission staggers me - he is versatility personified that gives the team far better balance.

Hope my concerns are wiped away and we smash the Bombers.

Hooper is out (I had to check twice, would have change from uninspiring to extremely frustrating).

I really didn't like Mulligan coming in for Markovic, hopefully the Eagles game makes MC/Eade realise how awful a player Mulligan is. I am with you on Barlow. I really don't get what is going on at the moment. Hudson selection is so short sighted. He is gone.

[Greystache]

Like a suspicious girlfriend who has gained a fair bit of weight*, I have a feeling Greystache is seeing another team.


* Just in case it was too subtle, this was an analogy for our shitful season.

Don't worry Rocco, it's purely physical. ;)

[bornadog]

Fact is, the MC have been pathetic for the past 2-3 years and whilst we have blooded youth this season, possible key players haven't got enough game time.

I don't know how you can make a statement like that, when we have been prelim finalist in those years. You have really lost me now, and who are these so called key players?

We have averaged this year in 95% of games around 9 to 10 players with less than 50 games and of those 7 under 20. Thats every week so far. You can only play so many inexperienced kids in one team.

[bornadog]

I know you're a big Eade fan .

What's that got to do with me saying Vez shouldn't play?

[The Underdog]

I think it's obvious what happened with Ayce. They clearly named him in the team and when everyone was patting him on the back his shoulders popped out.

[Hotdog60]

I think it's obvious what happened with Ayce. They clearly named him in the team and when everyone was patting him on the back his shoulders popped out.

Sorry I had to laugh.:D:D

[LostDoggy]

:D:D Classic

[Mantis]

Really didn't get Mulligan in for Markovic against the Eagles and I really don't get dropping Barlow. Seems like they are desperately to prove DJ wasn't a waste.


Don't agree with this call RJ.

DJ wasn't our worst against Sydney, especially after a poor start and would have held his spot if not for injury. He plays comfortably ahead of Hooper and for me it's a sensible swap.

Bigger problems than that with regard to selection.... especially down back.

[Ozza]

Don't agree with this call RJ.

DJ wasn't our worst against Sydney, especially after a poor start and would have held his spot if not for injury. He plays comfortably ahead of Hooper and for me it's a sensible swap.

Bigger problems than that with regard to selection.... especially down back.

Where do you see DJ playing in the long term? As part of our midfield rotation - or up forward. Although I'm not a huge fan, like you, I much prefer him to Hooper - and I suspect he could play the role Hooper is currently playing with a bit more energy. I don't think he's clean enough by hand or foot - nor is he enough of a natural ball winner to play in the midfield.

[Sockeye Salmon]

"Djerrkura will never be an AFL footballer unless they put a handle on the ball" - mjp

[The Pie Man]

Don't agree with this call RJ.

DJ wasn't our worst against Sydney, especially after a poor start and would have held his spot if not for injury. He plays comfortably ahead of Hooper and for me it's a sensible swap.

Bigger problems than that with regard to selection.... especially down back.

I agree that he made some strides forward from the 2nd qtr onwards in Sydney, was a shame he suffered an injury.

Worth trying as a direct Hooper swap, though from that SCG sample, I thought he might be worth perservering with through the middle*

* Granted that a) FP's are generally expected to spend some time in the middle anyway and b) he clearly needs to improve his handling of the pill

[Mantis]

Where do you see DJ playing in the long term? As part of our midfield rotation - or up forward. Although I'm not a huge fan, like you, I much prefer him to Hooper - and I suspect he could play the role Hooper is currently playing with a bit more energy. I don't think he's clean enough by hand or foot - nor is he enough of a natural ball winner to play in the midfield.

I see him playing as a forward who spends time thru the middle. He has a bit of pace which our midfield is clearly lacking which helps his cause.

I don't see him as a long term option at present due to the deficiencies in his game, as others have touched on, but he needs to be given a good run in the senior team, lke Hoooper has been given, to see if he has something to offer.

[LostDoggy]

I know you're a big Eade fan (nothing wrong with that, I am a fan of him overall too) but a criticism of him is that he can write guys off. Why not give him a game to see how he goes? If he plays well, great, if he doesn't, he gets a great reality check just in time for pre-season. Just saying he should know what to expect and he has to decide it on his own etc is just cutting your nose to spit your face type stuff. His success/failure isn't mutually exclusive from ours.

A pretty uninspiring team IMO.

Because he's coaching for his job. And that's not necessarily his fault. The club leaving the contract talks this late means they have to expect that — any other coach in AFL would do the same.


We've been playing the wrong players half the time. As I said - Hooper and Mulligan are two that are pointless. They aren't AFL standard and never (ever) will be. Barlow has played 2? decent games, but that's about it. Ditto DJ. Why do we persist with them and not Vez (or to a lesser degree, Tutt?).

I've seen Vez play about 4 times this year so I am no genius. From what I've seen, the concerns are warranted, but you (much like the MC) are overlooking two things.
A) The boy has obvious talent. His last few weeks have been OK without being a stand out. His attack on the ball is very good and his skills are very good.
&
B) Our current situation. We're a terrible side with only 1 or 2 players capable of kicking multiple goals up forward. We have nothing to lose by playing Vez - especially this late in the season. As Rocco said, the worst that can happen is he plays crap and is given an ultimatum over the pre-season. We're talking about young men here - since when do they "know" what they have to do, and go and do it?

Plenty of players have got games this year when they aren't "up to it". Fact is, the MC have been pathetic for the past 2-3 years and whilst we have blooded youth this season, possible key players haven't got enough game time.

Was going to retort, but BAD beat me to it, word for word:


I don't know how you can make a statement like that, when we have been prelim finalist in those years. You have really lost me now, and who are these so called key players?

We have averaged this year in 95% of games around 9 to 10 players with less than 50 games and of those 7 under 20. Thats every week so far. You can only play so many inexperienced kids in one team.

I will add: Any time you we say we have “nothing to lose” we've already lost. We do have something to lose: a game of football.


Crameri is tailor made for Morris, same size and plays tall. Good luck with that Stu!

Myers is a half back flanker who uses his kicking skllls to set up play. He's clumsy and slow for the game he plays, but most importantly he's an absolute spud!

Pears plays bigger than his stature, but I reckon Bazza will expose him.

Pears will beat Barry.


I think it's obvious what happened with Ayce. They clearly named him in the team and when everyone was patting him on the back his shoulders popped out.

You just got me busted surfing WOOF at work. Laughed very loudly and drew attention to the fact I'm perusing footy forums and not working. :)

[Greystache]

Pears will beat Barry.

That's insightful.

[Sedat]

Plenty of players have got games this year when they aren't "up to it". Fact is, the MC have been pathetic for the past 2-3 years and whilst we have blooded youth this season, possible key players haven't got enough game time.
In light of today's developements that Fantasia is part of the footy dept review process, I don't blame Rocket at all for picking the most competitive team possible on the park and putting the longer term to one side for the moment.

It is completely absurd that A) Fantasia is an integral part of this end of season review process, and B) his position and performance as head of footy ops is not actually being reviewed

[giaco]

"Djerrkura will never be an AFL footballer unless they put a handle on the ball" - mjp

That is brilliant. I'm amazed that guys like DJ and Barlow can make it so far in footy when they have so much trouble handling the ball - seems like the first prerequisite to being a good footballer.

[1eyedog]

Pears will beat Barry.
Because we'll get beaten badly in the midfield and the ball will come in easy for Pears do you think? Or do you think Pears is just a gun back?

With good delivery Hall would beat Pears 8/10 times. I even like Hall's chances one on one against him.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I don't know how you can make a statement like that, when we have been prelim finalist in those years. You have really lost me now, and who are these so called key players?

Playing Johnson, Higgins and Hahn (First two injured - last one crap) at the expense of younger players was a good move? Jones mising out on finals for Hahn was the biggest mistake.

We made PF's, but you're absolutely blind if you believe the MC did such a good job. This forum was very critical of our choices (or lack of) last year.

Some posters are so easy to please.


We have averaged this year in 95% of games around 9 to 10 players with less than 50 games and of those 7 under 20. Thats every week so far. You can only play so many inexperienced kids in one team.

Already explained myself in regards to the above several times.

We've played the wrong players. Hooper and Mulligan the most obvious.


I will add: Any time you we say we have “nothing to lose” we've already lost. We do have something to lose: a game of football.

Please.

We play football to make finals. A win against Essendon counts for very little. Don't pretend it's more than what it is.

We should be developing our squad more than we have. Our season is cooked. At least try and get something out of the year moving forward.


In light of today's developements that Fantasia is part of the footy dept review process, I don't blame Rocket at all for picking the most competitive team possible on the park and putting the longer term to one side for the moment.

It is completely absurd that A) Fantasia is an integral part of this end of season review process, and B) his position and performance as head of footy ops is not actually being reviewed

I do agree with this. It just shows what a rabble we are at the moment.

[1eyedog]

"Djerrkura will never be an AFL footballer unless they put a handle on the ball" - mjp

Well mjp someone at the club saw something that you didn't and offered him a 3 year contract. Maybe we should poach mjp from W.A?

[G-Mo77]

Playing Johnson, Higgins and Hahn (First two injured - last one crap) at the expense of younger players was a good move? Jones mising out on finals for Hahn was the biggest mistake.

We made PF's, but you're absolutely blind if you believe the MC did such a good job. This forum was very critical of our choices (or lack of) last year.

Some posters are so easy to please.


Yeah I think I was guilty of having a few rants last year with the selections. There were quite a few windows to drop some of the more Senior players due to poor form but persisted with them but others were not given the same chances. It's happened a few times this year as well. It hurts development and creates complacency.

Honestly I'm so over this season, I can't wait for it to end. 2012 is a different story we've got to make quite a few tweaks to a lot of areas especially in the MC area.

[bornadog]

Playing Johnson, Higgins and Hahn (First two injured - last one crap) at the expense of younger players was a good move? Jones mising out on finals for Hahn was the biggest mistake. .

Same old arguments same old ground believe what you will. The fact is Jones last 5 games at the end of 2010 were not good enough for finals. No other young players stood up to replace Johnno and Higgins.


We made PF's, but you're absolutely blind if you believe the MC did such a good job. This forum was very critical of our choices (or lack of) last year. Some posters are so easy to please. .

A bunch of guys that have never played AFL are better than the MC - good luck with that one.

As for playing Hooper and Mulligan, well you just criticise the MC for not trying young guys and when they do you shoot them down

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Same old arguments same old ground believe what you will. The fact is Jones last 5 games at the end of 2010 were not good enough for finals. No other young players stood up to replace Johnno and Higgins.

No wonder we are where we are right now, in 2011.

Are you on the MC?


A bunch of guys that have never played AFL are better than the MC - good luck with that one.

As for playing Hooper and Mulligan, well you just criticise the MC for not trying young guys and when they do you shoot them down

Love how you whip the bolded line out. Proves my opinion that some posters are blind by faith. Of course the MC would always be right.... :rolleyes:

Read over what I said .... again. I want younger players in the side, but ones who can play/may contribute in the future. These are players such as Howard, Wallis, Tutt and Veszpremi. Probably Cordy too.

Hooper and certainly Mulligan don't fit this description.

I really hope I don't have to explain that again BAD.

[Happy Days]

Cordy playing in the VFL.

[1eyedog]

"Djerrkura will never be an AFL footballer unless they put a handle on the ball" - mjp

Looked okay last night, rarely fumbled.

[chef]

Looked okay last night, rarely fumbled.

Yep, seemed to have been written off pretty quickly by some around here.

[bornadog]

No wonder we are where we are right now, in 2011. Are you on the MC?.

WTF ?:confused:



Love how you whip the bolded line out. Proves my opinion that some posters are blind by faith. Of course the MC would always be right.... :rolleyes: .

Blind faith no, MC better than internet supporters yes. Proves nothing.


Hooper and certainly Mulligan don't fit this description.

.

So they are on our list and we never give them a go? All I said about Hooper and Mulligan is that I don't judge them on less than 5 games or even 10. If they make it, great, if they are shite well we delist.

[Topdog]

Blind faith no, MC better than internet supporters yes. Proves nothing.


Who exactly is on our MC? Comments like yours above are really really silly.

[LostDoggy]

Hi BAD, it's an interesting point you bring up re: posters vs. the MC, and I would agree with you that your general point is valid -- they are full-time professionals and of course would have a generally greater grasp of the game than us part-time punters (although the amount of time some of us spend on WOOF and our Supercoach teams we may as well be full-time!).

However, the conclusion you draw that an assertion made by the MC must be more right than a regular punter's opinion is not one you can make from the above information -- it's a common logical fallacy called 'arguing from authority'. I'll just post a definition of the fallacy: (argumentum ad verecundiam) Appeals to authority are always deductively fallacious; even a legitimate authority speaking on his area of expertise may affirm a falsehood, so no testimony of any authority is guaranteed to be true.

(It just means that an expert should not be assumed to be right simply because he's an expert -- the statement being right or wrong has to stand on its own.)

I would suggest that some areas that a 'regular punter' may have an advantage over the MC is perhaps in having more objectivity about individual players than the MC (who after all spend a lot of time with these players and may develop subjective views about them -- only natural to have 'favourites' etc.), having no political or personal agendas that may cloud decisions over players, not having to deal with the internal relationships between MC members, or between the MC and individual players, that may guide decisions etc. (We've all worked at places where the internal pressures become so great and you are staring at the same facts day in day out to the point that you can't really see the big picture anymore.) Just saying!

[bornadog]

Hi BAD, it's an interesting point you bring up re: posters vs. the MC, and I would agree with you that your general point is valid -- they are full-time professionals and of course would have a generally greater grasp of the game than us part-time punters (although the amount of time some of us spend on WOOF and our Supercoach teams we may as well be full-time!).

However, the conclusion you draw that an assertion made by the MC must be more right than a regular punter's opinion is not one you can make from the above information -- it's a common logical fallacy called 'arguing from authority'. I'll just post a definition of the fallacy: (argumentum ad verecundiam) Appeals to authority are always deductively fallacious; even a legitimate authority speaking on his area of expertise may affirm a falsehood, so no testimony of any authority is guaranteed to be true.

(It just means that an expert should not be assumed to be right simply because he's an expert -- the statement being right or wrong has to stand on its own.)

I would suggest that some areas that a 'regular punter' may have an advantage over the MC is perhaps in having more objectivity about individual players than the MC (who after all spend a lot of time with these players and may develop subjective views about them -- only natural to have 'favourites' etc.), having no political or personal agendas that may cloud decisions over players, not having to deal with the internal relationships between MC members, or between the MC and individual players, that may guide decisions etc. (We've all worked at places where the internal pressures become so great and you are staring at the same facts day in day out to the point that you can't really see the big picture anymore.) Just saying!

Long explanation in relation to Topdog saying my post was really really silly.

God help our team when we start to listen to internet posters on who should be picked and who shouldn't.

Lets see - of the current team, over the years we have heard: (the ones I can remember)

*Hargrave - no good - that was a few years ago.
* Gia - no good, soft - despite being the top goal scorer last year. He has now proven everyone wrong
* Higgins should be traded
* Barlow a spud
* DJ needs handles on the ball then he will become a footballer
* Stack useless, can't make a decision, blamed for losing us the game
* The Beard - gone, can't ruck anymore why isn't Roughead number one
* Hooper to small no attributes should never get a game.
* Mulligan no good
* Boyd and Cross too loose - drop them
* Markovic to slow
* Sherman - bad recruit, has done nothing (despite before his indiscretion being 9th of 600 players in score assists)
* Vez and Tutt should be playing (called early in the season even when no form at VFL level)

At this rate we don't have a team.

Its great to have an opinion on who should and shouldn't be picked but to be slagging off the MC time and again because they didn't pick a player or drop a player the posters wanted is to me a little silly and then to say the posters are better than the MC.

[LostDoggy]

*Hargrave - no good - that was a few years ago.
* Gia - no good, soft - despite being the top goal scorer last year. He has now proven everyone wrong
* Higgins should be traded
* Barlow a spud
* DJ needs handles on the ball then he will become a footballer
* Stack useless, can't make a decision, blamed for losing us the game
* The Beard - gone, can't ruck anymore why isn't Roughead number one
* Hooper to small no attributes should never get a game.
* Mulligan no good
* Boyd and Cross too loose - drop them
* Markovic to slow
* Sherman - bad recruit, has done nothing (despite before his indiscretion being 9th of 600 players in score assists)
* Vez and Tutt should be playing (called early in the season even when no form at VFL level)

At this rate we don't have a team.
.

Haha I'm on your side but the list you just put up kinda wrecks your case -- that's a team alright, just not a very good one! (with apologies to the obvious exceptions)

But yes, your original point was valid -- we are far too quick to write some players off (but on the other hand, let's also be honest about some of the limitations of our playing list). I think it's a question of how we say some things -- "Stack at this rate is not an AFL player for x reasons" is more constructive than "Stack is s**t".

[Happy Days]

Long explanation in relation to Topdog saying my post was really really silly.

God help our team when we start to listen to internet posters on who should be picked and who shouldn't.

Lets see - of the current team, over the years we have heard: (the ones I can remember)

*Hargrave - no good - that was a few years ago.
* Gia - no good, soft - despite being the top goal scorer last year. He has now proven everyone wrong
* Higgins should be traded
* Barlow a spud
* DJ needs handles on the ball then he will become a footballer
* Stack useless, can't make a decision, blamed for losing us the game
* The Beard - gone, can't ruck anymore why isn't Roughead number one
* Hooper to small no attributes should never get a game.
* Mulligan no good
* Boyd and Cross too loose - drop them
* Markovic to slow
* Sherman - bad recruit, has done nothing (despite before his indiscretion being 9th of 600 players in score assists)
* Vez and Tutt should be playing (called early in the season even when no form at VFL level)

At this rate we don't have a team.

Its great to have an opinion on who should and shouldn't be picked but to be slagging off the MC time and again because they didn't pick a player or drop a player the posters wanted is to me a little silly and then to say the posters are better than the MC.

When you list all the critiques like that, it looks ridiculous, but it doesn't change the fact that a lot of them are valid.

*Barlow is a spud
*DJ does fumble the ball
*Hudson's days as a number one ruckman are over, or very close to
*Mulligan is no good
*Hooper doesn't really offer anything
*Stack does make bad decisions

Not all of the criticism I read on here is correct (in my opinion anyway), but to just dismiss it all as uninformed is too dismissive. You can't say the MC have been without fault this year either.

[bornadog]

Haha I'm on your side but the list you just put up kinda wrecks your case -- that's a team alright, just not a very good one! (with apologies to the obvious exceptions)

But yes, your original point was valid -- we are far too quick to write some players off, (but let's also be honest about some of the limitations of our playing list).

True, A lot of those inexperienced players may not make it, but if you go back to the posts I was discussing young players, all I was saying was when the MC doesn't play young players they are criticized, when the MC does play young guys, those players are bagged because they don't perform. The argument then came back - but the MC played the wrong young players. My answer is if they are on the list and showing form at VFL then why shouldn't they play. Plus, you can't write players off after a hand full of games.

[Desipura]

Gia has been very good up until a few weeks ago, he deserves his place in the team. Unfortunately his form in big finals is a stigma that sits with him and a lot of other senior players who are currently on our list or retired recently. Higgins, Gilbee, Johnson are some of the others, That will never change.
Griffen enhanced his reputation in finals and so did Ward to an extent which is why he will be missed if he leaves, he shows leadership potential IMHO due to this fact.

[AndrewP6]

Gia has been very good up until a few weeks ago, he deserves his place in the team. Unfortunately his form in big finals is a stigma that sits with him and a lot of other senior players who are currently on our list or retired recently.

No need to worry about that this year ;)

[The Bulldogs Bite]

BAD regularly comes to the aid of the club/MC when others criticise. If they are blunt, ridiculous calls - fair enough. However, any detailed and reasoned post should be treated with merit and not contempt because we "aren't professionals". The implication that we know nothing and the MC know everything is incredibly silly and, for mine, highlights ones inability to stand back and view our club from an objective point of view. Lantern pointed it out well.

[bornadog]

BAD regularly comes to the aid of the club/MC when others criticise. If they are blunt, ridiculous calls - fair enough. However, any detailed and reasoned post should be treated with merit and not contempt because we "aren't professionals". The implication that we know nothing and the MC know everything is incredibly silly and, for mine, highlights ones inability to stand back and view our club from an objective point of view. Lantern pointed it out well.

and if you read my posts they are the ones I am talking about, of course I don't criticize posters if they have a detailed reasoned post. As I said we all have our opinions but to say posters know more than the MC about picking players well that has me stumped.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

and if you read my posts they are the ones I am talking about, of course I don't criticize posters if they have a detailed reasoned post. As I said we all have our opinions but to say posters know more than the MC about picking players well that has me stumped.

That's the thing though - nobody has said that. You were the one who discarded what any poster had to say about the MC because they were the 'experts'.

As noted, it doesn't make them right simply because they have an attached title to their name. If this was the case, no club would ever have to replace 'em.

[Mantis]

TBB has put up some reasoned reponses and just because he doesn't agree with you or the MC it doesn't make him wrong.

[bornadog]

TBB has put up some reasoned reponses and just because he doesn't agree with you or the MC it doesn't make him wrong.

Where did I say he was wrong?

I was just responding to this:



Fact is, the MC have been pathetic for the past 2-3 years and whilst we have blooded youth this season, possible key players haven't got enough game time.


We made PF's, but you're absolutely blind if you believe the MC did such a good job. This forum was very critical of our choices (or lack of) last year.


I am bored with the conversation and can't be bothered reading and responding to the same old things.