Game Day 2011 - R23 Western Bulldogs vs Hawthorn

[BulldogBelle]

This is the discussion thread for our Saturday afternoon game against Hawthorn at the MCG.

My predictions are:

The Dogs by 2 points
BOG : Matthew Boyd
Barry Hall to kick the first goal

[bornadog]

Draw

BOG: Boyd

First Goal: King Tutt

[DragzLS1]

Hawks by 43 poInts
Bog Boyd
First goal Gia
Our defence just lacks experience against any top 8 team

[LostDoggy]

Bulldogs over the line by the barest of margins - 1 point

BOG - King Tutt
First Goal - Dahlhouse

[LostDoggy]

Dogs by 102 points.
BOG: Josh Hill
First goal: Daniel Cross

[w3design]

Dogs by 102 points.
BOG: Josh Hill
First goal: Daniel Cross
Daniel cross from 60 meters out perhaps?

Definition of optimism: remember54 has just set up the IQ to record the game.

Dogs by a point!!!

[Chicago1]

Hawks by 64 points
Gia first goal
Crossy BOG

[Go_Dogs]

Hawks by a bunch.
BOG - Griff
First Goal - Jones


Hopefully some more encouraging performances from the young guys, which will render the result meaningless.

[LostDoggy]

Dogs by 102 points.
BOG: Josh Hill
First goal: Daniel Cross

I love this post!!

[SlimPickens]

Hawks: 38pts
BOG: Griffen
First Goal: Bustling

[Greystache]

Going to need Barry to kick our entire score, we outright refuse to kick to anyone else up forward.

[AndrewP6]

7 points down,qtr time. Getting enough of it, need to limit Dawks supply. Buddy and Baz both have two. Boyd running at 43% efficiency, hardly a captains game. Grant hardly sighted.

[AndrewP6]

Going to need Barry to kick our entire score, we outright refuse to kick to anyone else up forward.

No one putting their hand up either

[Greystache]

No one putting their hand up either

Jones has been free several times but we refuse to kick it to him, by the time they realise there's no one else he's out of position.

[Mantis]

Josh Hill can join the dole queue any time he likes.

[Greystache]

Higgins was in danger of getting a grass stain on his shorts, luckily he managed to avoid body contact.

[GVGjr]

Hanging in there but you just feel that any minute the flood gates will open.

[GVGjr]

Finished the quarter OK. We still look to be a step or two behind but we are competitive.

[Mantis]

Good little fight back.

Look dangerous when we go forward, we just need to get it down there.

[MrMahatma]

Are we flooding? There's no fwd pressure so looks like we're flooding back (on TV anyway).

[hujsh]

Mathew Lloyd special comments, will Barlow be able keep up with Smith (aerobically)? Lloyd knows our players well.

[Greystache]

Good to see Jones kicking the ball, can't be good for his confidence every time he marks the ball he gets inundated with team mates calling for a handball.

[GVGjr]

What does everyone think of Jones and Hills games so far today?

[MrMahatma]

What does everyone think of Jones and Hills games so far today?
Jones is playing his role.

Hill is soft and pointless.

[AndrewP6]

What does everyone think of Jones and Hills games so far today?

Jones really lifted in the 2nd, showed some great hands and presented well.Hill has done a couple of good things, balanced out by the usual share of insipid things

[Greystache]

What does everyone think of Jones and Hills games so far today?

Jones has been very good from limited opportunities.

Hill is in front of only Higgins for effort and intensity.

[Greystache]

Defensive pressure has dropped off completely, flood doors about to open.

[azabob]

Jones has been very good from limited opportunities.

Hill is in front of only Higgins for effort and intensity.

Grant looks lost also.

[MrMahatma]

Higgins is probably the biggest disappointment on our list at the moment. Just really hasn't done anything...

[LostDoggy]

Grant looks lost also.

I thought he was ok that last quarter is finding space and created a goal from nothing. He's playing the hardest position on ground (lead up forward) and is far from our worst. I'd be concentrating on those who can't hit a target in the backline / midfield first

[ledge]

Positive notes Dahlhaus, Liberatore, Tutt, Schofield, I think theirs plenty all round.

[Ghost Dog]

Higgins is hopeless as a forward but that's where we need him.

[EasternWest]

Anyone else think Markovic did ok all things considered?

[Chicago1]

As expected. :(

[Hotdog60]

Higgins is hopeless as a forward but that's where we need him.

Higgins should have been across half back and Vez should have been forward not the sub.

I would have had Hill as the sub.

[Hotdog60]

I thought we did all right for such a under manned side, it could have been a lot worse.

[Greystache]

Anyone else think Markovic did ok all things considered?

I thought he did pretty well. Franklin kicked a couple in junk time from a soft free and a charity from a team mate, otherwise he wouldn't have made much of an impact in an easy win.

[OLD SCRAGGer]

I thought we did all right for such a under manned side, it could have been a lot worse.

Totally agree

[Greystache]

Higgins should have been across half back and Vez should have been forward not the sub.

I would have had Hill as the sub.

Higgins should be playing at Williamstown and should remain there for the forseeable future. His effort for a senior player is disgraceful, and for a player in the leadership group it's even worse.

[Ghost Dog]

I thought he did pretty well. Franklin kicked a couple in junk time from a soft free and a charity from a team mate, otherwise he wouldn't have made much of an impact in an easy win.

It wasn't the drubbing I thought it would be at all. At least it was a contest.

[LostDoggy]

Higgins is hopeless as a forward but that's where we need him.

Higgins needs to get a tank and play midfield. Too slow to play forward, not enough intensity or accountability to play back.

I was once an advocate to shift him back but having seen him there, he has no run or defensive pressure so that's another failed role.

He really is moving into trade bait territory.

[bornadog]

Anyone else think Markovic did ok all things considered?

One on one beat Buddy today.

[Ghost Dog]

Higgins needs to get a tank and play midfield. Too slow to play forward, not enough intensity or accountability to play back.

I was once an advocate to shift him back but having seen him there, he has no run or defensive pressure so that's another failed role.

He really is moving into trade bait territory.

So right HKB

[bornadog]

Lost this game in the middle today, with Hawks winning 18 to 9 as well as the contested possessions 140 odd to 100 odd.

Roughead has a long long long way to go with his ruck work, but having said that its good for his development these couple of games. Cordy needs strength, was pushed off the ball too easily.

Overall the inside 50's killed us and the backline was under siege. Murphy has had a great season and held up today although a couple of turnovers hurt us.

I was not happy Addison got a game, really Stack would have played better and given us some run off the backline.

We were competitive till half time but after that the game plan became unsustainable as the extra running required by the midfield to help cover the backline took its toll.

[lemmon]

I liked Vez through the middle, I dont see why we have him pigeonholed as a forward, has a bit of toe and uses the ball well to get out of the contest. Cordy showed glimpses though I still think he should be moulded as a forward, the kids were all admirable, Schoefield has a bit of the Hargrave bombing syndrome which isnt great but hes a trier. Was pretty pleased with Jones, does some really stupid things but he'll be a player.

Grant and Higgins are the biggest concerns, Grant has gone so far backwards Im starting to have doubts and Higgins accelerates like a ruckmen, really concerned his body might be shot, perhaps the upcoming 17 year old 'mini draft' might be an opportunity to cut losses and build for the future.

[G-Mo77]

Paul Williams didn't do himself any favors in the 3rd if he wants the head coaching job. 10 points down so lets go defensive and load up the back half. :rolleyes:

It was what I expected, they tried hard but are a fair way off the top teams.

[Greystache]

Paul Williams didn't do himself any favors in the 3rd if he wants the head job. 10 points down so lets go defensive and load up the back half. :rolleyes:

It was what I expected, they tried hard but are a fair way off the top teams.

Ummm....

[G-Mo77]

Ummm....

LOL.

Whoops, better edit that one. :D

[ledge]

We went into the game loading up backline and hoping to beat them on the rebound, we were never going to win but he also didnt want us smashed, with all the kids in the backline he didnt have much choice on any other game plan.

Point to be taken is we arent throwing in the towel and the kids are okay, future isnt as bleak as some think.

Cordy took a good mark in the backline and as much as its only one play it gives him confidence and he knows he can win one on one in league footy with more games in him.
Dalhaus, cant believe he wasnt picked up in the draft, him and Liberatore are going to be awesome.

[ledge]

LOL.

Whoops, better edit that one. :D

I also worried about the loading up at the back to go along with the previous line, the whole paragraph was a bit suspect:D

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Higgins should be playing at Williamstown and should remain there for the forseeable future. His effort for a senior player is disgraceful, and for a player in the leadership group it's even worse.

This.

Akermanis was right about Higgins. Impossible to defend him anymore.

I thought Hill was pretty good - surprised at the criticism he's getting.

[bornadog]

Paul Williams didn't do himself any favors in the 3rd if he wants the head coaching job. 10 points down so lets go defensive and load up the back half. :rolleyes: .

Not sure that was the game plan at all. Hawthorn were smashing us in the middle with Rucks and mids and clearing out of the centre. Then their forward press kept the ball in their half of the ground We couldn't get the ball out of there.

[G-Mo77]

I also worried about the loading up at the back to go along with the previous line, the whole paragraph was a bit suspect:D

I'd like to take credit for the comical post but it's just a few words put in the wrong place.

Maybe I've got it on the brain. ;)

Back on topic


We went into the game loading up backline and hoping to beat them on the rebound, we were never going to win but he also didnt want us smashed, with all the kids in the backline he didnt have much choice on any other game plan.

It seemed like a flood in the 3rd, and when they got the ball it was slow movement of the ball which worked in Hawthorn's favour. It looked like a completely different game plan. I did watch it on TV so it's hard to judge but that's how it came across.

If we get smashed so be it, I'd rather try everything to win than try to not lose by a lot.

[bornadog]

This.

Akermanis was right about Higgins. Impossible to defend him anymore.

I thought Hill was pretty good - surprised at the criticism he's getting.

I agree, Hill looked much better than he has and played his best game for the year. His 20 disposals were also pretty good.

Higgins may have to reinvent himself over summer and maybe even lose weight, otherwise he is a liability.

[G-Mo77]

Not sure that was the game plan at all. Hawthorn were smashing us in the middle with Rucks and mids and clearing out of the centre. Then their forward press kept the ball in their half of the ground We couldn't get the ball out of there.

Looked like it to me, every time we got the ball clear of the press there was nothing to kick to because they were all in the back half of the ground. Of course the forward press bottles it in there but it certainly doesn't help when you have team mates in arms reach of each other when they take possession.

We were going down anyway but the third looked like Williams trying to have a respectful loss, that doesn't wash with me.

[LongWait]

We went into the game loading up backline and hoping to beat them on the rebound, we were never going to win but he also didnt want us smashed, with all the kids in the backline he didnt have much choice on any other game plan.

Point to be taken is we arent throwing in the towel and the kids are okay, future isnt as bleak as some think.

Cordy took a good mark in the backline and as much as its only one play it gives him confidence and he knows he can win one on one in league footy with more games in him.
Dalhaus, cant believe he wasnt picked up in the draft, him and Liberatore are going to be awesome.

Agree with all you've said Ledge.

However, I've seen enough of our younger players to think a fairly large clean out and rebuild over the next two seasons will reap good rewards. We really need to get as many games as possible into our kids. Players such as Boyd, Cross, Gia, Gilbee and Hargrave won't ever play in a Bulldogs premiership team, so some hard decisions should be made sooner rather than later.

[bornadog]

Looked like it to me, every time we got the ball clear of the press there was nothing to kick to because they were all in the back half of the ground. Of course the forward press bottles it in there but it certainly doesn't help when you have team mates in arms reach of each other when they take possession.

We were going down anyway but the third looked like Williams trying to have a respectful loss, that doesn't wash with me.

I guess Hawthorn pushed forward and we tried to handball out of it and stuffed up so many times it was embarrassing. After matching them in the first half, it was disappointing.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

* Schofield was pretty good again today. He's improved a lot over the past two weeks and has a nice rounded game. He's a good tackler, can win the footy and spoils well in a pack. However, his run looks solid and he delivers the ball pretty well. Impressed.

* Libba has been really good in the last two weeks again, after a bit of a slump prior to that. All class. Going to be one of the best inside mids of the game for a long time.

* Jones had a good game, despite it being nigh on impossible for our forwards. He competes well and had a fantastic second quarter. Still makes basic mistakes, and is still very raw ... but he's going to be a very good player. Nice to se him nail two goals today.

* Veszpremi as a sub annoyed me. Thought he did well when he came on though, albeit he made two horror mistakes on that wing. He recovered well though, and I thought he showed some great leg speed each time he got the ball. He didn't look slow at all. Foot skills are obviously above average - just needs to have a huge pre-season, but I really hope we can make him into an AFL player. Clearly has the talent.

* Roughead and Cordy did OK. Both still get pushed off contests very easily, but they showed signs today. Nice to see Rough get involved around the ground a little bit and nail that goal. Cordy did OK in the ruck and showed some good composure with ball in hands deep in defence. He did better than last week v Port.

Thought it was disappointing that we played so negatively for so long. Agreed with the method up until half time, but we should be just played football in the second half. The third quarter was painful to watch.

Senior players were awful. Boyd's turnovers are disgraceful, Higgins' effort is pittiful. Gia showed today why he's not a supporters favourite - continually makes crap half hearted efforts and applies NO defensive pressure. I wholeheartedly agree with the club that Gia/Cross should only be given 1 year. To be honest - I'd rather both (or at least one) of them gone.

I'd like to see us cut deep into the list. Barlow/Addison shouldn't be at the club IMO.

[Mofra]

We went into the game loading up backline and hoping to beat them on the rebound, we were never going to win but he also didnt want us smashed, with all the kids in the backline he didnt have much choice on any other game plan.
Apart from Murphy, we had nobody in the backline that is recogniseable at rebounding (altrhough Schofield & Hill gave it a crack).

If this was our gameplan, why did Addison get a game ahead of Stack?

[LostDoggy]

Agree with all you've said Ledge.

Hoever, I've seen enough of our younger players to think a fairly large clean out and rebuild over the next two seasons will reap good rewards. We really need to get as many games as possible into our kids. Players such as Boyd, Cross, Gia, Gilbee and Hargrave won't ever play in a Bulldogs premiership team, so some hard decisions should be made sooner rather than later.
Let's just delisted them all then. No experience required. Let the youth fend for themselves. How did that go at Melbourne this year?

[G-Mo77]

I guess Hawthorn pushed forward and we tried to handball out of it and stuffed up so many times it was embarrassing. After matching them in the first half, it was disappointing.

But that's kind of my point, when you have so many numbers in the forward half players are far to close to each other, they then hand pass to someone a metre away, which then falls into the hands of the forward press. To me that is why it got ugly in the third.

The first half was a little different and the ball was able to be moved more freely as there was a lot more spacing. Look I'm not saying we would have won but I thought it was negative and poor coaching.

Other than that it wasn't to bad. As Ledge said the future is not so bleak we just need someone to steer the ship in the right direction. It's a pity because I thought we had the right person to do that here not all that long ago.

[LongWait]

Let's just delisted them all then. No experience required. Let the youth fend for themselves. How did that go at Melbourne this year?

I don't think that we should delist them all - some are under contract anyway.

I said we need a rebuild over two years, not immediate carnage. Some of these older players are attempting to negotiate deals which are longer than the club wants. I think that the club should stick to its' guns with Boyd, Cross and Gias' next contracts.

[AndrewP6]

* Veszpremi as a sub annoyed me. Thought he did well when he came on though, albeit he made two horror mistakes on that wing. He recovered well though, and I thought he showed some great leg speed each time he got the ball. He didn't look slow at all. Foot skills are obviously above average - just needs to have a huge pre-season, but I really hope we can make him into an AFL player. Clearly has the talent.


He did, however, look absolutely knackered in a very short time.

[LostDoggy]

I agree, Hill looked much better than he has and played his best game for the year. His 20 disposals were also pretty good.

Higgins may have to reinvent himself over summer and maybe even lose weight, otherwise he is a liability.

In the words of wallet I will dead set "spew up" if I hear that he has another blinding pre-season and is set to become the next Ben cousins...... Again

[LostDoggy]

I don't think that we should delist them all - some are under contract anyway.

I said we need a rebuild over two years, not immediate carnage. Some of these older players are attempting to negotiate deals which are longer than the club wants. I think that the club should stick to its' guns with Boyd, Cross and Gias' next contracts.

? That's hardily a 'clean out' and the 'hard decisions' you were advocating previously.

[LongWait]

? That's hardily a 'clean out' and the 'hard decisions' you were advocating previously.

Boyd traded immediately or at most offered a two year contract only. Gia and Cross either traded immediately or offered only a 12 month vastly reduced contract. Gilbee and Hargrave have their last contract and should up for trade if anyone wants them. We simply have to move on the older players fairly quickly without being stupid about it. If Cross and Gia want to move on now we should allow them to go.

[Sedat]

He did, however, look absolutely knackered in a very short time.
He was sucking in the big ones after about 15 minutes. I hope he works extremely hard to build his engine over summer because he really has some tricks.

[GVGjr]

Boyd traded immediately or at most offered a two year contract only. Gia and Cross either traded immediately or offered only a 12 month vastly reduced contract. Gilbee and Hargrave have their last contract and should up for trade if anyone wants them. We simply have to move on the older players fairly quickly without being stupid about it. If Cross and Gia want to move on now we should allow them to go.

Are you prepared to rip the heart out of the club and send a message to the entire group that we will treat players shabbily once they hit a certain age or show any signs of a decline of form?

[LongWait]

Are you prepared to rip the heart out of the club and send a message to the entire group that we will treat players shabbily once they hit a certain age or show any signs of a decline of form?

No - I said I'm not advocating wholesale immediate change. Not all of the older players could or should be moved on immediately, but I think that we should look for opportunities to initiate some change immediately and should not be offering long-term contracts to players who we should be looking to replace over the next two years.

[GVGjr]

No - I said I'm not advocating wholesale immediate change. Not all of the older players could or should be moved on immediately, but I think that we should look for opportunities to initiate some change immediately and should not be offering long-term contracts to players who we should be looking to replace over the next two years.

You're actually advocating immediate trades to a number of the leadership group players and you don't believe that it constitutes wholesale changes to the group? I'm obviously having a vastly different view on what the term wholesale changes mean.

[LongWait]

You're actually advocating immediate trades to a number of the leadership group players and you don't believe that it constitutes wholesale changes to the group? I'm obviously having a vastly different view on what the term wholesale changes mean.

I don't think that any of the older players I mentioned, except possibly Boyd, will be in our best 22 in one or two years time. That is the assumption I'm starting from.

Therefore, none of that group should be offered more than 1 or at most 2 year contracts. That approach is consistent with the above assumption.

The likely outcome is that maybe one or perhaps more of the above players won't accept that the end is near and might want a trade. If any of Gia, Gilbee, Cross, Hargrave or Boyd want to be traded, we should accommodate that within reason. That approach is also consistent with the assumption above.

I therefore conclude that one or two of the older players may be traded to a team that sees an immediate premiership opportunity or to one of the new teams who want a few veterans. All of them will be gone within two years with the possible exception of Boyd.

That is a reasonable turnover of the older players without there being absolute carnage. It is the kind of approach that other teams have taken with success (eg Collingwood.)

[Mantis]

The amount of uncontested ball Hawthorn had really annoyed me.

Did we not learn from our last game against them that they like to chip the ball around?

Yes our defence was under-manned, but by dropping a player back all day we played into their hands.

[ledge]

Apart from Murphy, we had nobody in the backline that is recogniseable at rebounding (altrhough Schofield & Hill gave it a crack).

If this was our gameplan, why did Addison get a game ahead of Stack?

Two reasons I can think of;
1 we needed a taller player with a bit of body and experience to stop the Buddy factor?
2 Addison has been on the list long enough lets see if he is worth keeping and play him?

Teams are picked on the opposition, with Hale and Buddy we needed two taller players in the backline, Cordy is young and could have got really smashed so I would think Addison was taken in as back up.

[SlimPickens]

The amount of uncontested ball Hawthorn had really annoyed me.

Did we not learn from our last game against them that they like to chip the ball around?

Yes our defence was under-manned, but by dropping a player back all day we played into their hands.

Thats really disappointing to hear. The first Hawthorn game when we let their half backs dictate and build was horrible. If it was the case yesterday and looking at Birchall and Paupolo numbers maybe it was, is really concerning.

Looks like Williams summed it up reasonable well in his press conference about some of our mids work ethic and ability to run both ways.

This must be the focus of the new coach, if our players are not willing to do the hard yards when they don't have the ball, we will struggle to be competitive for a number of years. Essendon have proven you can changes this mind set with application and i just hope the resolve of the playing group is strong enough or "want it " enough to actually step up.

[bornadog]

The amount of uncontested ball Hawthorn had really annoyed me.

Did we not learn from our last game against them that they like to chip the ball around?

Yes our defence was under-manned, but by dropping a player back all day we played into their hands.

I read in The Age today that Clarkson didn't understand why Hill and at times Cross were a spare man in defence. Clarkson said this tactic played into their hands and was the reason why they had more inside 50s. Williams response was that the backline was decimated with injury and he wanted to help protect the defence.

With the spare man back, the uncontested ball gathering just built up as we couldn't man up in our forward 50 and they just easily brought the ball down with the over lap.

I agree with Clarkson, why the hell are we worried about protecting the defence, lets just try and give the kids a go and let them learn, we weren't playing for a finals spot and we were never going to beat Hawthorn anyway.

[Twodogs]

Yes our defence was under-manned, but by dropping a player back all day we played into their hands.


Especially when that spare man was Cross. What's the point of freeing him up and getting the ball to him only to see him kick it straight to an opposition player?

[Twodogs]

Are you prepared to rip the heart out of the club and send a message to the entire group that we will treat players shabbily once they hit a certain age or show any signs of a decline of form?


An alternate view is that we are shoudnt be prepared to let players, senior or not, keep getting away with repeating playing the type of games they have been for years without trying to improve their style. We have a lot of younger players. Do we want them to look at their leaders and get the impression "They havent addressed their shortcomings so why should I?"


Our playing group (read young players) needs to go forward. We cant afford them to let them just tread water. Callan Ward should be the benchmark for the type of attitude we need, not Boyd or Higgins.


Watching the game yesterday the glaring difference between us and them was the way Hawthorn kicked the ball. They used the ball with confidence and hit targets almost every time. Our main ball winner's kicking efficiency was second rate by comparasion. And it's been second rate for years.

[GVGjr]

An alternate view is that we are shoudnt be prepared to let players, senior or not, keep getting away with repeating playing the type of games they have been for years without trying to improve their style. We have a lot of younger players. Do we want them to look at their leaders and get the impression "They havent addressed their shortcomings so why should I?"



That should be done at the selection table and it's something we haven't been good at for a while.

[Greystache]

The amount of uncontested ball Hawthorn had really annoyed me.

Did we not learn from our last game against them that they like to chip the ball around?

Yes our defence was under-manned, but by dropping a player back all day we played into their hands.

Especially when that player was Cross. He's not quick enough to cut off passes to leading forwards, is a liability with ball in hand, and offers no rebound run out of defence, it was basically like playing one short with him playing that role. I appreciate Williams was trying to find a role Cross can play, but basically if he can't play a shutdown role in the midfield there's no spot for him.

A new coach coming in and wiping out the credits built up will have a good hard look at whether Cross can make a useful contribution in modern football. My view is Cross will play a considerable amount of footy at Williamstown next year.

[Rocco Jones]

An alternate view is that we are shoudnt be prepared to let players, senior or not, keep getting away with repeating playing the type of games they have been for years without trying to improve their style. We have a lot of younger players. Do we want them to look at their leaders and get the impression "They havent addressed their shortcomings so why should I?"

I agree. The impression it sets for younger players really worries me. I know it's still very early days but Mitch Wallis is a player I can see going that way.

[Twodogs]

That should be done at the selection table and it's something we haven't been good at for a while.


Fair point and I agree that our reluctance to drop certain players has been a concern for a while now. But this problem isnt a week to week thing that's going to be fixed by a week playing at Williamstown. The players concerned have had the same problems for several years now and havent improved them. If they havent improved by now they arent likely to in the future.

Think about it this way. Our captain's kicking would prevent him getting a game at Hawthorn and he's our captain. It's gone long past a selection problem and if we think it is then we are just playing catch up. We need to make a statement to our young players that complacency will no longer be tolerated or they will go down the Higgins path.


As an aside, who is our skills coach?

[Twodogs]

Especially when that player was Cross.


Especially when that tactic has been tried and failed several ties in the past-notably in a final against Hawthorn! What made the coaching staff think it was going to work this time around when Crossy has the same shortcomngs in his game he had then?

Here's an idea. Let's put Crossy in a position where his defencies are exposed. Dont get me wrong. I love Daniel Cross when he is at a bottom of a pack clawing for the ball but playing him as a loose man in defence is plain silly.

[AndrewP6]

Ever so slightly off topic (well, it happened on game day!), I was interviewed pre-game by Channel 31, Footy Talkback. They told me it would be on Tuesday at 8pm. Hope I don't end up on the cutting room floor! :)

[1eyedog]

Are you prepared to rip the heart out of the club and send a message to the entire group that we will treat players shabbily once they hit a certain age or show any signs of a decline of form?

I am. The heart hasn't been beating for a long time.

We need to cull. This club is not a charity case and we need to make James McDonald type decisions.

[Ghost Dog]

For me, you need to treat the core playing group with respect.
Give them the option of a half season with a transition period, assistant role offer, where young players are brought in and they are fed into a mitch hahn type leadership role.
Gilbee is one who I would consider showed us a great deal of loyalty by not going to Sydney. Should be repaid in kind with some career support.
Or give them the option of opting out of the club all together.

[AndrewP6]

We need to cull. This club is not a charity case and we need to make James McDonald type decisions.

You mean decisions that piss off a number of important players?

[1eyedog]

I just think we need a coach who is prepared to make tough decisions. I'm not going to get myself into this but our players need to know that it is a privilege to play for this club, not the other way around.

I don't think Cameron can do this.

[GVGjr]

I am. The heart hasn't been beating for a long time.

We need to cull. This club is not a charity case and we need to make James McDonald type decisions.


I tend to think it should be done in a planned manner rather than a knee jerk one. This over reaction is because we have kept so many of the older guys on for at least a season too long.

There doesn't need to be a cull if things are well managed.

[LongWait]

I tend to think it should be done in a planned manner rather than a knee jerk one. This over reaction is because we have kept so many of the older guys on for at least a season too long.

There doesn't need to be a cull if things are well managed.

What do you suggest that we do with Boyd; Cross; Giansiracusa; Gilbee and Hargrave? What duration should their contracts be and which of them do you see as in our best 22 in 2012, 2013 and 2014?

[LostDoggy]

I am. The heart hasn't been beating for a long time.

We need to cull. This club is not a charity case and we need to make James McDonald type decisions.

I generally agree with this, yet, James McDonald may well have helped Bailey save his job this year, and certainly made them more competitive through the middle of the year when they had their form slump.

[Mofra]

What do you suggest that we do with Boyd; Cross; Giansiracusa; Gilbee and Hargrave? What duration should their contracts be and which of them do you see as in our best 22 in 2012, 2013 and 2014?
Gilbee and Hargrave are both contracted for 2012 yet there are rumours both will pull the pin at the end of this season.

[immortalmike]

You mean decisions that piss off a number of important players?

I took it to mean stupid short-sighted decisions.
No use playing kids and only kids. It has never to very rarely worked out well.

[bornadog]

I took it to mean stupid short-sighted decisions.
No use playing kids and only kids. It has never to very rarely worked out well.

See GC for proof.

[immortalmike]

See GC for proof.

Or Melbourne, or Richmond, or Adelaide, or Carlton, or Port...need I go on.

[bornadog]

Or Melbourne, or Richmond, or Adelaide, or Carlton, or Port...need I go on.

Exactly. That's what I really don't understand about supporters who continually ask for older players to be delisted or dropped. There has to be a blend of players from old to young.

[Mantis]

Exactly. That's what I really don't understand about supporters who continually ask for older players to be delisted or dropped. There has to be a blend of players from old to young.

But if some of our older players aren't going to help us improve why should we keep playing them?

[Greystache]

Our lack of quality in the 23-28 year old bracket is going to really hurt over the next few years.

Addison
DJ
Markovic
Moles
Stack
Higgins

To go with the established senior players of

Cooney
Griffen
Picken
Williams
Sherman

Doesn't ready very well considering this should be the core of the team. 3 or 4 are delisting/trading candidates.

[bornadog]

Our lack of quality in the 23-28 year old bracket is going to really hurt over the next few years.

Addison
DJ
Markovic
Moles
Stack
Higgins

To go with the established senior players of

Cooney
Griffen
Picken
Williams
Sherman

Doesn't ready very well considering this should be the core of the team. 3 or 4 are delisting/trading candidates.

How many should be in each bracket in the best 22, ie 18 to 22, 23 to 28 and 28 plus?

[immortalmike]

But if some of our older players aren't going to help us improve why should we keep playing them?

Who are these older players and why won't they help us improve?

[Greystache]

How many should be in each bracket in the best 22, ie 18 to 22, 23 to 28 and 28 plus?

Given 23-28 are a players peak, you'd want at least 50% or even 60% in that range, with the other two segments making up the rest depending on if you're building or challenging.

[Mantis]

Read my post, there needs to be a blend.

I read your post and then asked you a question... Can you answer it for me?

[bornadog]

Given 23-28 are a players peak, you'd want at least 50% or even 60% in that range, with the other two segments making up the rest depending on if you're building or challenging.


I read your post and then asked you a question... Can you answer it for me?

Well currently our list is made up of:

29 years plus = 20% or 9 players (includes Rookie Hahn)

23 to 28 = 30% or 14 players

18 to 22 = 50% or 23 including rookies.

* Hall, Huddo and Hahn are retiring, Gilbee is shot and Hargrave may retire.

That leaves:

* Gia - Good season for him, has kicked 43 goals to date.
* Murphy - Could win the B&F
* Boyd - AFL leading Disposals and Clearances
* Lake

Next year Morris and Cross will be 29 and I doubt the club would (and rightly so) delist them

The next batch ie 23 to 28 is made up of: (Next years age)

Minson, Will
Cooney, Adam
Moles, Brodie
Williams, Tom
Griffen, Ryan
Picken, Liam
Markovic, Lukas
Sherman, Justin
Barlow, Ed
Addison, Dylan
Higgins, Shaun
Stack, Brennan
Djerrkura, Nathan
Hill, Josh
Mulligan, James
Skinner, Zephaniah
Grant, Jarrad

17 players will be in this bracket next year. Some will be delisted, so maybe we need to trade for a couple of good players to help this bracket out.

Overall I don't believe we are too badly placed. The above bracket is boosted by the 20 to 23 year olds, ie

Veszpremi, Patrick
Wood, Easton
Reid, Sam
Prato, Eddie
Ward, Callan (if he stays)
Cordy, Ayce
Roughead, Jordan
Hooper, Andrew
Panos, Matthew
Jones, Liam
Howard, Christian
Tutt, Jason

Dahlhaus, Libba and Schofield turn 20 next year as well.

Overall agree the middle bracket is lacking a few more quality players.

[Ghost Dog]

Grant is 22, 23 next July IIRC

[Greystache]

As GD said, it'not just the numbers on the list are imbalanced, the quality does not have the making of a core of a successful team.

[bornadog]

Grant is 22, 23 next July IIRC

thats why he is in the bracket for 23 to 28 as the list is based on next years age.

[Ghost Dog]

thats why he is in the bracket for 23 to 28 as the list is based on next years age.

True enough.
Pace is the real issue

Minson, Will - slow
Cooney, Adam - slowing
Moles, Brodie - medium
Williams, Tom - slow
Griffen, Ryan - quick
Picken, Liam - medium
Markovic, Lukas - slow
Sherman, Justin - quick
Barlow, Ed - medium
Addison, Dylan - slow
Higgins, Shaun - slow
Stack, Brennan - quick
Djerrkura, Nathan - quick ( I think )
Hill, Josh - when he feels like it - medium
Mulligan, James - no idea -
Skinner, Zephaniah - no tank as of yet
Grant, Jarrad - when he feels like it - quick

so there you have it. Our core group is just a bit on the slow side.

[Mantis]

Overall agree the middle bracket is lacking a few more quality players.

At a quick count only 4 or 5 of this middle group are in our best 22 which isn't a good thing.

Of those a couple still aren't playing the type of footy we expect/ hope they can play.

[bornadog]

At a quick count only 4 or 5 of this middle group are in our best 22 which isn't a good thing.

Of those a couple still aren't playing the type of footy we expect/ hope they can play.

This group needs to step up. We are going to need the 21 and 22 year olds to help out as well.

[Maddog37]

Right at this point I think Gia and Higgins are problems more so than Cross. Both are too slow and offer no defense.

Gilbee and Shaggy will need an Indian summer to impact but I feel that with the right preseason they could be good contributors.

I have come 360 degrees on Stack and Addison which surprises me. Reid also I am not sure about.

[GVGjr]

What do you suggest that we do with Boyd; Cross; Giansiracusa; Gilbee and Hargrave? What duration should their contracts be and which of them do you see as in our best 22 in 2012, 2013 and 2014?

Boyd to receive a 3 year deal. Cross and Gia a 2 year deal although Gia's should have a discount in the 2nd year. All 3 should be in our best 22 next year with question marks on Gia and maybe Cross in 2013.

I believe Hargrave and Gilbee have another year to go on their existing contracts which isn't helpful. Maybe something can be worked out there allowing Lake to be moved onto the veterans list.

[1eyedog]

True enough.
Pace is the real issue

Minson, Will - slow
Cooney, Adam - slowing
Moles, Brodie - medium
Williams, Tom - slow
Griffen, Ryan - quick
Picken, Liam - medium
Markovic, Lukas - slow
Sherman, Justin - quick
Barlow, Ed - medium
Addison, Dylan - slow
Higgins, Shaun - slow
Stack, Brennan - quick
Djerrkura, Nathan - quick ( I think )
Hill, Josh - when he feels like it - medium
Mulligan, James - no idea -
Skinner, Zephaniah - no tank as of yet
Grant, Jarrad - when he feels like it - quick

so there you have it. Our core group is just a bit on the slow side.

Out of your list only Higgins and Addison are slower than they should be and Williams and Grant are quicker than they should be. Based on this, we have some pace across the ground. Bit harsh on Picken. If he was a test bowler he would be considered fast-medium. Didn't he go okay in the 2008 Grand Final sprint?

[1eyedog]

Right at this point I think Gia and Higgins are problems more so than Cross.

Agreed, Higgins is a real worry as he is turning into a liability in the modern game.

[LongWait]

Boyd to receive a 3 year deal. Cross and Gia a 2 year deal although Gia's should have a discount in the 2nd year. All 3 should be in our best 22 next year with question marks on Gia and maybe Cross in 2013.

I believe Hargrave and Gilbee have another year to go on their existing contracts which isn't helpful. Maybe something can be worked out there allowing Lake to be moved onto the veterans list.

I really hope that the club resists the temptation to stick with what has failed.

[Bulldog Revolution]

I really hope that the club resists the temptation to stick with what has failed.

They've also been the nucleus of an almost premiership side

IMO the club needs to resist the temptation to scapegoat our own. And if you are looking for another cliche we need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Clearly, we haven't been good enough this year. We need to figure out why and put in place a plan to improve. Rightly or wrongly, part of that has been done and a new coach will be joining us.

The senior core of the team are invaluable in teaching the youngsters how to play. I would not favour going down the Port Adelaide route where our senior players have very little impact. There is no doubt Boyd, Cross, Lake, Gia should be expected to be strong contributors in 2012.

However, I would like to see whoever comes in to coach keep the senior core under far more pressure to perform. For instance the way Clarkson does with Sewell etc. Sewell doesn't always play well, but he generally plays with hunger and intensity. If our senior players can't do that then they should play VFL until the can find that within themselves.

[Mantis]

Boyd to receive a 3 year deal. Cross and Gia a 2 year deal although Gia's should have a discount in the 2nd year. All 3 should be in our best 22 next year with question marks on Gia and maybe Cross in 2013.

So why contract them for 2013?

If there are signs late next year that both Gia & Cross aren't in our plans moving forward we can simply get rid of them without having the 'already contracted' problem hanging over their hands.

If they are still going well we simply re-sign them for another year.


I believe Hargrave and Gilbee have another year to go on their existing contracts which isn't helpful. Maybe something can be worked out there allowing Lake to be moved onto the veterans list.

See above point.

[GVGjr]

So why contract them for 2013?

If there are signs late next year that both Gia & Cross aren't in our plans moving forward we can simply get rid of them without having the 'already contracted' problem hanging over their hands.



I suppose the next question is why contract them at all?

I don't see an issue with Cross in 2012 and I think he will still be OK in 2013. If they structure the contract correctly it won't be a burden and since we are also losing Hudson and Hall we won't be top heavy for the older guys.
Giansiracusa has had a good season and I don't see the issue next season for him. 2013 is less likely to be a good one for him so we would need to look at a reduced 2nd year.

Just because we have both of them on the list doesn't mean we need to play them if their form doesn't measure up.

Ideally only one of Gilbee or Hargrave would still be on the list next season.

[AndrewP6]

Ever so slightly off topic (well, it happened on game day!), I was interviewed pre-game by Channel 31, Footy Talkback. They told me it would be on Tuesday at 8pm. Hope I don't end up on the cutting room floor! :)

If anyone's interested, here's the link to my feature role on tonight's episode of "Footy Talkback".

http://www.footytalkback.com.au/

And by "feature role", I mean "About 20 seconds worth" :D To save you sitting through it, I'm on late in the piece, about 18 minutes in I think.

Damn I wish Sasha had interviewed me.

[Rocco Jones]

But if some of our older players aren't going to help us improve why should we keep playing them?

Yep. Playing a side full of kids isn't healthy but there is no point playing guys just because they are older. Being old doesn't make you a leader, skills, knowledge and attributes do. The 3 main ones I can think of are:

- Voice: constructive comments on the ground, huddles, team meetings (Gia's fave). I think this one can be overrated if both of the next two are missing.
- Leading by example: This doesn't just mean being a kamikaze, it means doing little things like being accountable. Not just saying, but doing. The best kind of leadership in isolation.
- Physicality/big body: Not many Rising Star noms are KPs or inside mids. Sometimes you simple need big experienced bodies or you risk breaking kids. They take the hard roles and leave the easier ones for the kids

As much as I appreciate what the likes of Gilbee and Shaggy have done for the club, do they really 'save/help' kids? Shaggy perhaps with the role he can fill.

[Ghost Dog]

Out of your list only Higgins and Addison are slower than they should be and Williams and Grant are quicker than they should be. Based on this, we have some pace across the ground. Bit harsh on Picken. If he was a test bowler he would be considered fast-medium. Didn't he go okay in the 2008 Grand Final sprint?

Need speed where it counts.
Williams may be fast but he's not a line breaker.
Picken plays a tagging role primarily. So that ties him up most of the time.
Grant is quick.
With Murphy getting on, we're going to def need more options for getting it out of our back half. Struggled with that this season.