Win or lose?

[chef]

Whats every ones thought on where we finish on the ladder and hopes for this weekend?

Depending on results we can finish anywhere from 10th to 13th.

[Ozza]

Prefer to win.
I think we can have a big win and send Barry and Huddo off in style - and something for a few of the young boys to take in to the pre-season.

[Maddog37]

We will not be able to lose to Freo even if we try.

[choconmientay]

For sure win! A lost against an injury depleted team does not help building confidence into our young players. I keep hearing everyone saying ... 'a winning culture ...." bla bla bla ...

[Greystache]

Win.

Our first round picks have at best been patchy, a spot higher or lower is unlikely to make much difference either way.

[SlimPickens]

Win- and good luck to the lads who carry Bazza and Huddo off the ground. Will it change our position much anyway?

[GVGjr]

Whats every ones thought on where we finish on the ladder and hopes for this weekend?

Depending on results we can finish anywhere from 10th to 13th.

I'm not sure I understand the question. Why wouldn't we want to win?

[Mantis]

I'm not sure I understand the question. Why wouldn't we want to win?

If we win and finish 10th we might get pick 15.

If we lose and finish 13th we might get pick 12.

I think chef is implying we 'tank' such to get a better pick.

[AndrewP6]

Win. The notion of anything other than going for the win, regardless of the possible benefit in picks, I can't stomach. Baz and The Beard deserve 110%, a big win, and great games for them both. GO THE DOGGIES!

[BulldogBelle]

If we win and finish 10th we might get pick 15.

If we lose and finish 13th we might get pick 12.

I think chef is implying we 'tank' such to get a better pick.



1) Win and win big, and give some of our younger guys and the team in general some much needed confidence coming into 2012

2) Give Hudson and Barry a decent send off

A pick 3 places up in the teens wont make much difference to the teams fortunes in 2012/13, but #1 above will

[Remi Moses]

I think we will win and hopefully Melb and Richmond both win so we maintain our draft position.People might not be able to stomach it, but that's the system we live in.
Pre- season Draft also could be important.

[GVGjr]

If we win and finish 10th we might get pick 15.

If we lose and finish 13th we might get pick 12.

I think chef is implying we 'tank' such to get a better pick.

OK, he's back to tanking and wanting us to lose again.

[Remi Moses]

For sure win! A lost against an injury depleted team does not help building confidence into our young players. I keep hearing everyone saying ... 'a winning culture ...." bla bla bla ...

I agree it's fools Gold at this time of the year.
Recall Port winning some late games last season.
Round 22 2002 anyone?

[The Adelaide Connection]

Win.

The flight home is depressing when you are hungover, worse when we lose and I am hungover.

[stefoid]

In this draft, the difference between pick 12 (13th) and pick 17 (10th) could be significant.

I hope we win and I hope the mighty tiges do the right thing and beat those north @$@$.

But I wouldnt be crying in my corn flakes if we lost either. The whole season has been a train wreck and one whether we win 8 or 9 for the year is irrelevant in the long term.

I dont want the team to tank in the melbourne style - playing guys out of position and so on. Thats just degrading and wrong.

[The Doctor]

definately win and i hope we spank em

[G-Mo77]

Win!

Our pick won't be that good if we lose anyway so not much point IMO. Send off Bazza and Huddo in style.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Win and hope Richmond and Melbourne win too.

[chef]

If we win and finish 10th we might get pick 15.

If we lose and finish 13th we might get pick 12.

I think chef is implying we 'tank' such to get a better pick.

Yep, I thought that was pretty obvious, but tanking is not what I mean. More player development and finding out if our fringe players are worth keeping.

I was torn between to two(IMO the difference between pick 15 and 12 could be huge on draft day), but hope we get a win for Huddo and Baz.

[chef]

I'm not sure I understand the question. Why wouldn't we want to win?

Better draft position.

[Ghost Dog]

Yep, I thought that was pretty obvious.

I was torn between to two(IMO the difference between pick 15 and 12 could be huge on draft day), but hope we get a win for Huddo and Baz.

I can't believe this thread even exists.
Difference between 15 and 12? you have to be kidding.
Lake was pick 72 !

[chef]

I can't believe this thread even exists.
Difference between 15 and 12? you have to be kidding.
Lake was pick 72 !

Sorry mate, I'll PM you for approval before I start a thread next time:rolleyes:

[chef]

OK, he's back to tanking and wanting us to lose again.

In 2008 the difference between 13 and 15 was get Jetta or Talia or end up with Howard. I know it doesn't always make a difference, but it can be huge. Plus if we were going to put this pick on the trade table it could be the thing that trumps Richmond and Melbourne if we were all after the same player.

Anyway I don't want us to lose this weekend(I was interested in the thoughts other WOOFERS though), I would rather Baz and Huddo go out with a bang.

[Bulldog Revolution]

When you think its a good idea to lose to Freo at home with a very young team selected then you need a reality check.

I am not taking a cheap shot here 'chef' but I do think you've got to go away and have look in the mirror. You may love what you see, you may not ;)

We are not talking about gaining an extra top 5 pick here but a minor upgrade. Further, we won't know the difference between pick 12 and 15 for another 3-4 years, and often at 15 our recruiter will get the 12th player they want.

Tutt, Roughy, Scho, Dahl, Jones, Grant etc etc etc will get far more out of successfully executing the game plan and beating Freo than they will out of tanking. It is very important to finish the worst year we've had in a while strongly.

[stefoid]

God the hysteria. Nobody wants us to tank.

The equation is if we win and Richmond and Melbourne lose, we get pick 17
If we lose we are guarenteed pick 12.
This draft does not run deep.

The best possible outcome is that all three teams win so we still get pick 12.

But if we give it our best shot and come up short, then I dont mind that outcome either, given the consolation is 3-5 pick advancement in the first round of the draft.

I dont know how many other superters feel that way - I guess most posters reply becaue they feel strongly one way or the other.

[The Coon Dog]

Jon Ralph in the Herald Sun has written a similar article about Richmond:

Loss may be a victory for Tigers (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/loss-may-be-victory-for-richmond/story-e6frf9jf-1226124872194)

[LostDoggy]

I understand the thinking behind the question, but basically, I don't think selling your soul is worth an upgrade from 15 to 13. Heck, it's barely worth it to secure a no.1 pick.

The thing about selling your soul is that it's really hard to get it back -- Carlton tanked in the middle of last decade and they're still proppy when facing a real challenge and barely in the top 4. Melbourne aren't going anywhere for a while, and Richmond.. well. Yes, Collingwood technically 'tanked' for Daisy and Pendlebury, but Malthouse still took 11 years to snag a flag (and I think their money and Arizona training has more to do with their success than draft order), and Hawthorn owes more to smart/lucky drafting with Cyril and Buddy, who were both available to other clubs, than tanking per se.

Only West Coast with the NicNat draft really tanked and succeeded I think, but Worsfold barely survived that, and they didn't really have a soul to begin with anyway, having traded it a long time ago in the Cousins drugs era for a flag, so they don't really count.

[Mofra]

Well, IIRC the difference between 2 draft spots a few years back was Everitt at 11 or Riewoldt at 13.

I'll be cheering for a win this week.

[LostDoggy]

I understand the thinking behind the question, but basically, I don't think selling your soul is worth an upgrade from 15 to 13. Heck, it's barely worth it to secure a no.1 pick.

The thing about selling your soul is that it's really hard to get it back -- Carlton tanked in the middle of last decade and they're still proppy when facing a real challenge and barely in the top 4. Melbourne aren't going anywhere for a while, and Richmond.. well. Yes, Collingwood technically 'tanked' for Daisy and Pendlebury, but Malthouse still took 11 years to snag a flag (and I think their money and Arizona training has more to do with their success than draft order), and Hawthorn owes more to smart/lucky drafting with Cyril and Buddy, who were both available to other clubs, than tanking per se.

Only West Coast with the NicNat draft really tanked and succeeded I think, but Worsfold barely survived that, and they didn't really have a soul to begin with anyway, having traded it a long time ago in the Cousins drugs era for a flag, so they don't really count.

If I ever meet you, I'm going to buy you a beer.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Well, IIRC the difference between 2 draft spots a few years back was Everitt at 11 or Riewoldt at 13.

I'll be cheering for a win this week.

Good call, so will I

[chef]

I am not taking a cheap shot here 'chef' but I do think you've got to go away and have look in the mirror. You may love what you see, you may not ;)


Yes, you are. I don't care if you disagree with me but there's no reason to be a flog and get personal about it.

Do I need to put up with this MODS?

[GVGjr]

Better draft position.

Let me pose a few questions

What incentive is there for our supporters to go to a game if we are deliberately intending to not give a 100% effort?
Would you make the drive from the bush to the Etihad to watch it knowing that they are just going through the motions?
Would our sponsors be happy? Would the players just accept it?

How do you ask a player to dig deeper for an extra effort next year when he knows your weren't 100% committed yourself the previous year?

I don't think we are good enough to pick and choose which games we are intending to have a crack at or not. To me there is a lot of downside and minimal upside in tanking games and I don't think you can flick the switches like you seem to be suggesting.

[Ghost Dog]

Sorry mate, I'll PM you for approval before I start a thread next time:rolleyes:

That would be great Chef! :D
I appreciate your passion as a supporter and willingness for us to do anything to get ahead...but.
Come on seriously. Pick 15 or 12.
There are so many variables in footy.
That's a big call, to throw a game of footy and to piss off sponsors and fans for a player for a kid that may or may not be better two or three years down the track.

[LostDoggy]

Jon Ralph in the Herald Sun has written a similar article about Richmond:

Loss may be a victory for Tigers (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/loss-may-be-victory-for-richmond/story-e6frf9jf-1226124872194)

Love the last line of that article, 'In 2009, Jordan McMahon's last-minute goal against the Demons meant Richmond finished second last and the Demons got the priority pick to recruit Jack Trengove and Tom Scully.'

Wonder how kicking that last goal worked out for Jordan :rolleyes:

[chef]

Let me pose a few questions

What incentive is there for our supporters to go to a game if we are deliberately intending to not give a 100% effort?
Would you make the drive from the bush to the Etihad to watch it knowing that they are just going through the motions?
Would our sponsors be happy? Would the players just accept it?

How do you ask a player to dig deeper for an extra effort next year when he knows your weren't 100% committed yourself the previous year?

I don't think we are good enough to pick and choose which games we are intending to have a crack at or not. To me there is a lot of downside and minimal upside in tanking games and I don't think you can flick the switches like you seem to be suggesting.

Fair enough GVGjr, thanks for the mature response.

I'm not advocating that the players don't try(I would love us to fill our side with our fringe players to see who's worth keeping and who's not), just that not winning on the weekend could become a blessing in disguise come draft day.

And in terms of driving from the bush to watch them p[lay, as long as they have a red hot go I'm happy. To me winning isn't the only reason I watch them play.

[1eyedog]

When you think its a good idea to lose to Freo at home with a very young team selected then you need a reality check.

I am not taking a cheap shot here 'chef' but I do think you've got to go away and have look in the mirror. You may love what you see, you may not ;)

We are not talking about gaining an extra top 5 pick here but a minor upgrade. Further, we won't know the difference between pick 12 and 15 for another 3-4 years, and often at 15 our recruiter will get the 12th player they want.

Tutt, Roughy, Scho, Dahl, Jones, Grant etc etc etc will get far more out of successfully executing the game plan and beating Freo than they will out of tanking. It is very important to finish the worst year we've had in a while strongly.

Huh? He's asking a question about what is honestly best for the club. He's not asking you to profile him.

[GVGjr]

I'm not advocating that the players don't try(I would love us to fill our side with our fringe players to see who's worth keeping and who's not), just that not winning on the weekend could become a blessing in disguise come draft day.

And in terms of driving from the bush to watch them p[lay, as long as they have a red hot go I'm happy. To me winning isn't the only reason I watch them play.

That's not really what I'm asking.

I'm asking you if you would still make the drive to Etihad if you knew for sure a fringe team was being selected with the main purpose to not win the game?

We know there is a chance we will lose any game but if it's known that an intentional loss is been orchestrated, no matter the endeavours of the players selected, I doubt many would still make the trip. Sponsors wouldn't be pleased by it either and I doubt I would dig as deep with my membership the following year if I thought the team was orchestrating losses.

I think you are a mile off what is right for the club with your focus on tanking the game just to move a couple of positions up the draft order and I think the ramifications of such a ploy would be a disaster.

I get that the upside of a loss is a slightly better draft position but that should not be the intention.

[ledge]

People say we need to win for the kids confidence, I will paint the other side:
1 Its the last game of the year that has nothing riding on it.
2 If we win or lose will they even remember it at the start of next year ?
3 A loss can be a better thing than a win, not just for the draft but for the future eg, the kids work harder because they dont like losing and are driven more.
4 A win well glad that seasons over and at least we won the last game.

An example Geelong after the loss to the Hawks in the GF vowed never to lose to the Hawks and havent since. Okay it was a GF but it has steeled the players for the future.
Sometimes a loss can mean more than just a draft choice or losing 4 points, it can be a blessing in disguise.
I am not saying we lose deliberate I dont condone that and would not be happy but it does seem a loss has more meaning than a win in some instances.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I understand the thinking behind the question, but basically, I don't think selling your soul is worth an upgrade from 15 to 13. Heck, it's barely worth it to secure a no.1 pick.

The thing about selling your soul is that it's really hard to get it back -- Carlton tanked in the middle of last decade and they're still proppy when facing a real challenge and barely in the top 4. Melbourne aren't going anywhere for a while, and Richmond.. well. Yes, Collingwood technically 'tanked' for Daisy and Pendlebury, but Malthouse still took 11 years to snag a flag (and I think their money and Arizona training has more to do with their success than draft order), and Hawthorn owes more to smart/lucky drafting with Cyril and Buddy, who were both available to other clubs, than tanking per se.

Only West Coast with the NicNat draft really tanked and succeeded I think, but Worsfold barely survived that, and they didn't really have a soul to begin with anyway, having traded it a long time ago in the Cousins drugs era for a flag, so they don't really count.

Wow, 11 whole years to win a flag.

[LostDoggy]

Fight like hell for the jumper.

[Dry Rot]

Well, IIRC the difference between 2 draft spots a few years back was Everitt at 11 or Riewoldt at 13.

I'll be cheering for a win this week.


FWIW, may be mixing up my years, but didn't we miss out by one draft spot to the Swans for their Jetta?

[Sedat]

Prefer to win and give Hall and Hudson the send-off their contributions to our club deserve. In any event, our recruiting manager probably has the nominal 50th ranked player in his sights for our first pick so it won't matter whether we have pick 12 or 17.

[Dry Rot]

Prefer to win and give Hall and Hudson the send-off their contributions to our club deserve. In any event, our recruiting manager probably has the nominal 50th ranked player in his sights for our first pick so it won't matter whether we have pick 12 or 17.

Good point.

Hall and Hudson deserve to be carried off the ground of their last game, winners.

[MrMahatma]

A couple of retirements. Players trying to impress any coach in waiting. Williams trying to press a claim for the top job.

This will be our biggest win of the year.

[chef]

I'm asking you if you would still make the drive to Etihad if you knew for sure a fringe team was being selected with the main purpose to not win the game?


Yes(to the first bit), as long as they are out there giving 100% I'm happy.

No to the second bit. It all comes down to effort with me.

[bornadog]

I want to see a win, in fact I want to see us thrash Freo.

[Mofra]

FWIW, may be mixing up my years, but didn't we miss out by one draft spot to the Swans for their Jetta?
In 2009, when we took Howard at 15 he went at 14. Were we interested? I can't recall but he does look good.

[ledge]

In 2009, when we took Howard at 15 he went at 14. Were we interested? I can't recall but he does look good.

Sounds like some of you have given up on Howard already.

[Sedat]

In 2009, when we took Howard at 15 he went at 14. Were we interested? I can't recall but he does look good.
From memory we were all over him but absolutely knew that Sydney worst case would nab him at 14.

[GVGjr]

Yes(to the first bit), as long as they are out there giving 100% I'm happy.

No to the second bit. It all comes down to effort with me.

How many trips have you made to see Williamstown this year?
Based on the fact that effort is greater than wins for you this might be a good stat to measure the commitment.

[LostDoggy]

Sounds like some of you have given up on Howard already.

When players like Fyfe and Menzel go in picks after 15, it's worrying. Howard might be a good player one day but will be a flanker/winger at best.

[ledge]

When players like Fyfe and Menzel go in picks after 15, it's worrying. Howard might be a good player one day but will be a flanker/winger at best.

So now you have gone to positions as a defence?
I know wingers who were the best players in the league called Hawkins ,Dipierdomenico, Flower, the list goes on, you dont rate wingers or flankers as footballers?
Positions dont rate whether a player is good or bad.
Howard could be a gun, even next year, some players mature so quick in one pre season, he was chosen very young.
I will wait and see before I throw the kid out so quick.
Jetta could be a flash in the pan, scary how some supporters jump on first impression at times.
Judge on a career not on one year or two.

[LostDoggy]

So now you have gone to positions as a defence?
I know wingers who were the best players in the league called Hawkins ,Dipierdomenico, Flower, the list goes on, you dont rate wingers or flankers as footballers?
Positions dont rate whether a player is good or bad.
Howard could be a gun, even next year, some players mature so quick in one pre season, he was chosen very young.
I will wait and see before I throw the kid out so quick.
Jetta could be a flash in the pan, scary how some supporters jump on first impression at times.
Judge on a career not on one year or two.

So 3 good ones, 30+ years back.
The modern game doesn't rate wingers.
Howard won't be a gun next year.

[ledge]

So 3 good ones, 30+ years back.
The modern game doesn't rate wingers.
Howard won't be a gun next year.

Good teams have a defensive winger and a forward winger, Eagleton and Thomas are wingers who played attacking like Tutt will, both those players were important.
Not the game doesnt rate them , You dont, you obviously dont rate flankers but if you listen to or watch games running back flankers are the most sort after and important for rebound.
Give me a fit Murphy , Gllbee, Harbrow running off half back and you find us in prelims at least.

Collingwood are very good due to them backing the flankers run off and delivery into the forward line.
Geelong the last 5 years back flankers run and delivery.
You underrate both positions.

[chef]

How many trips have you made to see Williamstown this year?
Based on the fact that effort is greater than wins for you this might be a good stat to measure the commitment.

Some of us don't have the luxury of having weekends off and living in Melbourne. I would go to every game if possible.

[EasternWest]

So 3 good ones, 30+ years back.
The modern game doesn't rate wingers.
Howard won't be a gun next year.

Do you think he has what it takes to develop into one at all? After all I had heard about him, when I finally saw him play, I was surprised (and pleased) by his willingness to contest physically. It's too soon to tell just how good he'll be, but I think he'll do ok.

[Sedat]

Do you think he has what it takes to develop into one at all? After all I had heard about him, when I finally saw him play, I was surprised (and pleased) by his willingness to contest physically. It's too soon to tell just how good he'll be, but I think he'll do ok.
Leg speed might be an issue for him in this role.

[GVGjr]

Some of us don't have the luxury of having weekends off and living in Melbourne. I would go to every game if possible.

I honestly get that but I still don't think people would make the drive to watch a team that has been picked with the mindset to intentionally lose the game and I think dressing it up as 'the effort is more important to you' isn't an accurate reflection.

I still haven't read anything that would suggest throwing games is the right way to go.

[Maddog37]

Leg speed might be an issue for him in this role.

I thought he looked ok leg speed wise. I felt it was his slow decision making that caught him out at times. Lack of confidence still an issue maybe.

[choconmientay]

I thought he looked ok leg speed wise. I felt it was his slow decision making that caught him out at times. Lack of confidence still an issue maybe.

I agree. He can make up the lack of leg speed with good decision making and accurate kicking which we know he has. His left boot kick is quite good from what I have seen so far. I think he has to work on the tackling and increasing the intensity in defensive situation.

[Remi Moses]

Got a bit of a pie in the sky theory
If we finish the lowest placed Vic team might help in getting a player back!
( hello John Butcher) if he any forseeable trade falls through.
Probably to many " What if" I know,but you never know.