Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

[azabob]

What about Cale Hooker? Has had injuries but could be worth a look. Seemed to be in and out of the essendon team towards the end of the season.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

What about Cale Hooker? Has had injuries but could be worth a look. Seemed to be in and out of the essendon team towards the end of the season.

Definite no.

Hooker is a spud.

[LostDoggy]

Then we'll take their first pick and Andrew Walker and say thank you very much.

Unfortunately we missed a golden opportunity to get Andrew Walker last year. I hate to think that Fantasias ineptitude cost us the deal.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Unfortunately we missed a golden opportunity to get Andrew Walker last year. I hate to think that Fantasias ineptitude cost us the deal.

There has been a lot of negativity directed towards Fantasia, some of it he's maybe deserved but we can't blame him for everything that hasn't worked

I don't think Carlton or Ratten were ever really that serious about trading Walker last year and it seemed more designed to put a rocket up him, and he's still a complimentary player rather than a real focal point.

[G-Mo77]

There has been a lot of negativity directed towards Fantasia, some of it he's maybe deserved but we can't blame him for everything that hasn't worked

I don't think Carlton or Ratten were ever really that serious about trading Walker last year and it seemed more designed to put a rocket up him, and he's still a complimentary player rather than a real focal point.

If we took the Hill trade then we had a piece to acquire Walker and I really think we would have made a decent play at him. Fantasia held out for more for a player who may possibly be delisted soon so the trade got nixed and here we are. Fantasia is a bum, don't know how he is able to keep his job.

[The Underdog]

If we took the Hill trade then we had a piece to acquire Walker and I really think we would have made a decent play at him. Fantasia held out for more for a player who may possibly be delisted soon so the trade got nixed and here we are. Fantasia is a bum, don't know how he is able to keep his job.

IIRC we were trying to trade a player out to free up the salary cap space required to try and trade for Walker. That trade fell over due to the team taking a lesser washed up option and we couldn't fit him in regardless of if we could have put a trade together.

[Sockeye Salmon]

IIRC we were trying to trade a player out to free up the salary cap space required to try and trade for Walker. That trade fell over due to the team taking a lesser washed up option and we couldn't fit him in regardless of if we could have put a trade together.

Yep. McKenna took Fraser rather than Minson.

We were trying to rort the system the way Brisbane did with Brennan but McKenna was mates with Fraser from their days at Collingwood.

Fraser over Minson? Seriously?

[Remi Moses]

Unfortunately we missed a golden opportunity to get Andrew Walker last year. I hate to think that Fantasias ineptitude cost us the deal.

Carlton wanted a first round pick( confirmed by Kernahan tonight)and we couldn't Minson to the Suns for a first rounder.As Sockeye said taking Fraser over Minson, personally think I'd rather Minson. To late now

[chef]

There has been a lot of negativity directed towards Fantasia, some of it he's maybe deserved but we can't blame him for everything that hasn't worked

I don't think Carlton or Ratten were ever really that serious about trading Walker last year and it seemed more designed to put a rocket up him, and he's still a complimentary player rather than a real focal point.

He would have definitely been traded to us, Crows or Port(or anyone for that matter) if they could get a first round pick for him.

[GVGjr]

There has been a lot of negativity directed towards Fantasia, some of it he's maybe deserved but we can't blame him for everything that hasn't worked

I don't think Carlton or Ratten were ever really that serious about trading Walker last year and it seemed more designed to put a rocket up him, and he's still a complimentary player rather than a real focal point.

Agreed about Fantasia but for a guy with his background, messing up trades in consecutive years is inexcusable. The Hill assessment he pitched to fans was a stupid comment and the DJ trade where the Cats didn't even use that pick highlighted he didn't look hard enough at what the Cats were doing. Not everything is his fault though.

Regarding Walker, I tend to think that Carlton didn't want to trade him but because he insisted they fielded offers. The worked out his value which was a fair assessment but when clubs couldn't match it, they made the right call and kept him.

[Desipura]

There has been a lot of negativity directed towards Fantasia, some of it he's maybe deserved but we can't blame him for everything that hasn't worked

I don't think Carlton or Ratten were ever really that serious about trading Walker last year and it seemed more designed to put a rocket up him, and he's still a complimentary player rather than a real focal point.

50 goals in a team that played finals is a good return, would have walked into our side.

[ledge]

Was it so bad not trading Minson he will be needed next year.
I have a lot of time for Minson and think he has been given a bad run by us over the years.

[Bulldog Revolution]

50 goals in a team that played finals is a good return, would have walked into our side.

I agree Desi, but I do not believe Carlton were ever that serious about trading him unless they were offered a first round pick, which we were not going to do as we'd committed to Wallis

[ledge]

Wouldnt we love Brendan Goddard, wonder if thats a chance with Ward going freeing up some dough.

[1eyedog]

Was it so bad not trading Minson he will be needed next year.
I have a lot of time for Minson and think he has been given a bad run by us over the years.

You put him up in the Ekers thread :D


Wouldnt we love Brendan Goddard, wonder if thats a chance with Ward going freeing up some dough.

He hates us.

[ledge]

You put him up in the Ekers thread :D

I know but i think he has been an eker so far but could be more now Hudson has gone.

He hates us.

Does that matter where dollars are concerned, I am sure that helps find the love:D

[ledge]

[QUOTE=1eyedog;241741]You put him up in the Ekers thread :D

Up to now yes but now Hudsons gone he might lose that tag.

[1eyedog]

It does, but I'm not sure I want to poach a player who really, really doesn't want to be there.

Jade Rawlings.

[Ghost Dog]

REported in theage.
Farren Ray, Sean Dempster, Raph Clarke, Brett Peake, Ryan Gamble and Dean Polo; most of them should be moved on and replaced with kids. ( Jake Niall )

Farren Ray anyone? :D

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/st-kilda-the-blueprint-20110917-1kf9c.html#ixzz1YJAzCfkx

The article above is an interesting one. They are in almost worse shape than us it seems.

[Remi Moses]

Ummm No^^^^^. Super coach Ross Lyon masterclass right there

[Mantis]

Does that matter where dollars are concerned, I am sure that helps find the love:D

We would have to pay him $1 mil a year to attract him.... No chance ledge.

[macca]

I wouldnt be surprisef if some of these guys end up at freo this year in a shallow draft.

[bornadog]

Adelaide re-sign Porplyzia and Talia. (http://www.sportsnewsfirst.com.au/articles/2011/09/19/adelaide-re-sign-porplyzia-and-talia/)

[chef]

Dawes a wanted man

It's believed that Melbourne and the Western Bulldogs are firmly in the mix. The retirement of Barry Hall has left a vacancy at the Bulldogs, and the Demons are keen to ease the focus on Liam Jurrah.

The Bulldogs and Demons could entice the Magpies into a deal, having accrued extra draft picks from losing players to Greater Western Sydney. The Bulldogs received one first-round selection for Callan Ward. The Demons were given two for Tom Scully


http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/dawes-a-wanted-man-20110919-1khys.html#ixzz1YS37wuly

[BulldogBelle]

Dawes a wanted man

It's believed that Melbourne and the Western Bulldogs are firmly in the mix. The retirement of Barry Hall has left a vacancy at the Bulldogs, and the Demons are keen to ease the focus on Liam Jurrah.

The Bulldogs and Demons could entice the Magpies into a deal, having accrued extra draft picks from losing players to Greater Western Sydney. The Bulldogs received one first-round selection for Callan Ward. The Demons were given two for Tom Scully


http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/dawes-a-wanted-man-20110919-1khys.html#ixzz1YS37wuly



Why would he want to come to us?

From Premiership contender (and I dont see the Pies sliding in 2012) to a team that most likely wont make the 8

Young quality tall forwards are as rare as hens teeth, so you would assume the Pies would place more focus on resigning him rather than a mid

[LostDoggy]

I think he would be best suited for Carlton, who's forward line can seem like a shambles.

Giving up our Ward pick for him instead of a future youngster, would be a very silly move IMO.

[stefoid]

I think its highly likely we could get someone from the VFL to be a crash and bash clutz of a long target and pay peanuts for him.

Hell, Panos is a pretty good mark and a lovely kick. You reckon Panos could kick 23 goals in a season on the end of Collingwoods midfield? you bet he could.

[Mofra]

Hell, Panos is a pretty good mark and a lovely kick. You reckon Panos could kick 23 goals in a season on the end of Collingwoods midfield? you bet he could.
He only has to block for Cloke and crash packs for the smalls to be judged a pass.

For what Dawes would offer us as a side, we'd have to pay overs for him - wouldn't be worth it (an anti-moneyball trade).

[Maddog37]

I would have Dawes no worries but not for the price that would have to be paid. I think the Pies would actually be licking their lips at the prospect of trading him and making out like bandits. Keefe will take his spot and they would lose little.

Be better to chase Keefe.

[chef]

The Sunday Times reports ( WA paper )

" The West Coast push for a Premiership before the looming retirement of Cox , Glass and Embley means the Eagles could target an experienced midfielder in trade week , while a deal to aquire Western Bulldogs forward Josh Hill is also likely " .

[LostDoggy]

The Sunday Times reports ( WA paper )

" The West Coast push for a Premiership before the looming retirement of Cox , Glass and Embley means the Eagles could target an experienced midfielder in trade week , while a deal to aquire Western Bulldogs forward Josh Hill is also likely " .

Are they on drugs???

[Sedat]

Are they on drugs???
They're not called West Coke for nothing ;)

[LostDoggy]

With Embley probably nearing retirement and Mark Nicoski having perhaps 2-3 year left as well I can see the theoretical attraction of Josh as a flank/outside player to replace them. Who knows they may not have seen Sunday's game, or they may feel that they can turn him around.

If they are on the hook, what do we want that they would give up?? I know that we were reported to look at Matt Rosa last year, is this a possibility?? How about Scott Lycett, the Ruck forward who played against us? Might he be an option to address our Ruck/Fwd concerns?

[Topdog]

If they are on the hook, what do we want that they would give up?? I know that we were reported to look at Matt Rosa last year, is this a possibility?? How about Scott Lycett, the Ruck forward who played against us? Might he be an option to address our Ruck/Fwd concerns?

draft pick, dont care if it is pick 50

[Rocco Jones]

I love how fans want to trade out guys they don't rate at all for stuff they really rate like high picks or promising players. My favourite was on facebook. I don't remember the exact words but not exagerating someone said 'we need to trade duds like Hill and Stack for some really early draft picks'. Oh man I can't believe it's that easy.

Step 1- Offer duds
Step 2- Find club who really doesn't get they are duds but thinks they are stars in the making while also believing early draft picks are not valuable
Step 3- Premierships ahoy!

Hey stupids, do it!

[Greystache]

I love how fans want to trade out guys they don't rate at all for stuff they really rate like high picks or promising players. My favourite was on facebook. I don't remember the exact words but not exagerating someone said 'we need to trade duds like Hill and Stack for some really early draft picks'. Oh man I can't believe it's that easy.

Step 1- Offer duds
Step 2- Find club who really doesn't get they are duds but thinks they are stars in the making while also believing early draft picks are not valuable
Step 3- Premierships ahoy!

Hey stupids, do it!

My favourite is where fans package up 4 or 5 of said list clogging duds and then want to trade them to a club in exchange for a superstar. Somehow it always seem to involve Collingwood.

I.e. "we need a gun ruckman, we should trade Sydney McCarthy, Dick, S Buckley, and McCaffer for Mumford, we can even throw in Wood as a sweetener if they want"

[bornadog]

Dawes to stay with Magpies (http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/124151/default.aspx)


As suspected - Collingwood hang on to their wanted players.

[Remi Moses]

I think I heard one of the worst today
Alwyn Davey for Goddard:eek:

[bornadog]

I love how fans want to trade out guys they don't rate at all for stuff they really rate like high picks or promising players. My favourite was on facebook. I don't remember the exact words but not exagerating someone said 'we need to trade duds like Hill and Stack for some really early draft picks'. Oh man I can't believe it's that easy.

Step 1- Offer duds
Step 2- Find club who really doesn't get they are duds but thinks they are stars in the making while also believing early draft picks are not valuable
Step 3- Premierships ahoy!

Hey stupids, do it!

My favourite is when posters say lets get rid of every one over 28 years old.;)

[G-Mo77]

I think I heard one of the worst today
Alwyn Davey for Goddard:eek:

Saints could use another specialist diver next to St. Nick.

[G-Mo77]

Here is a question for Woofers. Dahlhaus is a lock to be placed on the main list next season and Panos is looking good to be added as well but what about everyone's favorite player Ed Barlow?

He played some pretty good games late in the season for us and can be used in various types of roles. What are the thoughts on retaining him and adding him to the main list?

[The Coon Dog]

Here is a question for Woofers. Dahlhaus is a lock to be placed on the main list next season and Panos is looking good to be added as well but what about everyone's favorite player Ed Barlow?

He played some pretty good games late in the season for us and can be used in various types of roles. What are the thoughts on retaining him and adding him to the main list?

No, at best retain on the rookie list.

We have already made an error on that from recently with the elevation of Hooper & Mulligan.

[ReLoad]

I spoke with Callan Ward today at Fed Square.

I asked him if Reid was heading up north too, he said and I quote "I had heard that rumour too, but i don't know, what i do know is that his management have not talked to the bulldogs yet"

He was very sheepish and looked a bit scared when i told him i was a dogs supporter, but wished him well anyway and told him i sympathised with his tough decision. He was pretty genuine in saying "yeah it was tough."

[G-Mo77]

No, at best retain on the rookie list.

We have already made an error on that from recently with the elevation of Hooper & Mulligan.

I wasn't sure if we could drop him back to the rookie list or not. Let's say he wants a Senior listed spot is he able to jump into the Draft and try and find a home or do we have rights over him?

In the comparison to Mulligan, at least Barlow had actually put together some good games at AFL level and was very consistent at VFL level. I'm still scratching my head on how or why Mulligan was elevated.

[w3design]

Here is a question for Woofers. Dahlhaus is a lock to be placed on the main list next season and Panos is looking good to be added as well but what about everyone's favorite player Ed Barlow?

He played some pretty good games late in the season for us and can be used in various types of roles. What are the thoughts on retaining him and adding him to the main list?

I would keep him on the rookie list if we are aloud too but would elevate him to seniors list to keep him for sure.

[anfo27]

I wasn't sure if we could drop him back to the rookie list or not. Let's say he wants a Senior listed spot is he able to jump into the Draft and try and find a home or do we have rights over him?

In the comparison to Mulligan, at least Barlow had actually put together some good games at AFL level and was very consistent at VFL level. I'm still scratching my head on how or why Mulligan was elevated.

Why would we even contemplate this? He is hopeless and will never amount to anything when it comes to football.

[LostDoggy]

Why would we even contemplate this? He is hopeless and will never amount to anything when it comes to football.

You talking Mulligan or Barlow?

[anfo27]

You talking Mulligan or Barlow?

Mulligan. Barlow is worth keeping as a rookie.

[LostDoggy]

Mulligan. Barlow is worth keeping as a rookie.

I doubt G-mo is talking about mulligan

[G-Mo77]

I doubt G-mo is talking about mulligan

I most certainly am not talking about Mulligan. Retaining Barlow was the question.

[anfo27]

I most certainly am not talking about Mulligan. Retaining Barlow was the question.

Sorry G-Mo, misunderstood you there.

[Mofra]

In the comparison to Mulligan, at least Barlow had actually put together some good games at AFL level and was very consistent at VFL level. I'm still scratching my head on how or why Mulligan was elevated.
Given a choice between the two, I'd much rather Barlow - he runs hard and at least gets to the contest. Mulligan getting pantsed in the air, consistently, but a guy one foot shorter than him on the weekend was embarrassing.

As to whether he goes on the main list, it will depend on how hard we think the draft will run - if pick 94 is likely to be a long-shot speculative chance at best, I'd rather promote Barlow and have the speccie pick as a rookie we can cut after one year.
Having said that, Dalrymple seems to have done well with his late round & rookie picks.

[LostDoggy]

Ben Hart to Collingwood to replace Neeld.

Good appointment - he's a dud coach.

[Sedat]

Given a choice between the two, I'd much rather Barlow - he runs hard and at least gets to the contest. Mulligan getting pantsed in the air, consistently, but a guy one foot shorter than him on the weekend was embarrassing.
This. Barlow is not a key defender's backside but he is a follower that can offer ruck relief and provide an outlet option whenever we are stagnant. He offers so much more than Mulligan it is not funny (which is not saying much - Mulligan cannot play the game, simple as that).

Whether he retains his rookie status or gets promoted to the main list and is offered a 1 year contract, I'm comfortable either way.

[Maddog37]

Mulligan looks terrible but I always wonder about guys that get lost chasing opponents and never play the ball. It is too late now but it would be nice to see him play ruck or even forward and be told to just get the footy.

[Desipura]

Mulligan looks terrible but I always wonder about guys that get lost chasing opponents and never play the ball. It is too late now but it would be nice to see him play ruck or even forward and be told to just get the footy.
He does not know how to get the footy. Almost every time he went near the footy, rather than getting the footy, he shepherded his opponent so his teammate would get it. This was even though he was nearest to the ball.

[LostDoggy]

This is all true Maddog. Mulligan has lived all our dreams for three + years. Time for it to end. He's an imposter.

[EasternWest]

Anyone know when we'll announce who's got the chop?

[LostDoggy]

They're not called West Coke for nothing ;)

I should have known Sedat!!

[OLD SCRAGGer]

Anyone know when we'll announce who's got the chop?

I heard that NO delisting will be announced before Trade Week

[LostDoggy]

I heard that NO delisting will be announced before Trade Week

That is sensible.

[Rocco Jones]

We have activated our 2 compo picks meaning we have 5 selections in the first 3 rounds.

Campbell and Austin are both looking like they will be elevated at season's end meaning that we will need to delist/retire 7 not including trading.

Hooper, Mulligan and Gilbee are pretty much gone.

Who else is in trouble? I think Moles and Panos aren't too far off the trio. Skinner?

It will be interesting to see how we balance the rather large number of picks and couple of rookies.

[LostDoggy]

Matty Panos is not going anywhere , he is in the middle of a program at the moment , he got sent to defense at Willi to work on the defensive side of his game and now he's back at HF showing what he did or did not learn , General Mac wants Matty to lift his game to a level where he can push for selection , I,m looking forward to seeing him wearing the Hoops

.

[Bulldog Joe]

We have activated our 2 compo picks meaning we have 5 selections in the first 3 rounds.

Campbell and Austin are both looking like they will be elevated at season's end meaning that we will need to delist/retire 7 not including trading.

Hooper, Mulligan and Gilbee are pretty much gone.

Who else is in trouble? I think Moles and Panos aren't too far off the trio. Skinner?

It will be interesting to see how we balance the rather large number of picks and couple of rookies.

Might also come down to how some of the older players finish off the season. Who knows how players like Murphy and Hargraves will be feeling by years end. Even Morris could be in trouble to come back from his injury. Hopefully they will be ok but we do need to phase out the older guys in an orderly manner and that probably means at least one more than Gilbee may need to be retired or traded.

While face value says we will need to find 7 spots, perhaps we will look to trade out someone to improve the picks, which means that a regular senior player could be packaged with a pick for an upgrade of the pick.

Interesting times when you consider that Smorgon has claimed we can be active with Free Agency, which would require more space on the list.

[hujsh]

I imagine the obvious choices are Hooper and Mulligan with Gilbee and Moles just behind them. Then the next three in line are probably Skinner, Panos and Djerkurra, though I'd hesitate to delist DJ. Should West-Dog be correct that Panos is safe then it comes down to Vezpremi, Markovic and our more recent draft picks.

This is assuming we upgrade Campbell though. How many forward/ruckmen does a team need?

[bornadog]

Hooper, Mulligan, Gilbee, Moles, Hargrave, Skinner,

we may trade a big man, like Hill for a pick?

[Rocco Jones]

DJ has a year left.

I would try and keep Shaggy around. His versatility really helps us out IMO.

Really don't see much value in us trading Hill at this stage. When I think of who to trade out I want perceived current value > actual potential. Hill doesn't fit that.

Perhaps we can do something like trading multiple picks of an upgraded selection.

[Sockeye Salmon]

DJ has a year left.

I would try and keep Shaggy around. His versatility really helps us out IMO.

Really don't see much value in us trading Hill at this stage. When I think of who to trade out I want perceived current value > actual potential. Hill doesn't fit that.

Perhaps we can do something like trading multiple picks of an upgraded selection.

I have heard that Hargrave might give it away, that his body isn't holding up too well.


I think it was a mistake activating the Sam Reid pick.

What if no-one bids for Hunter? We could then pick him up with our last pick and not even use th Reid compo pick.

Mulligan, Hooper, Gilbee, Hargrave, Moles, Skinner and Panos

[GVGjr]

I have heard that Hargrave might give it away, that his body isn't holding up too well.


I think it was a mistake activating the Sam Reid pick.

What if no-one bids for Hunter? We could then pick him up with our last pick and not even use th Reid compo pick.

Mulligan, Hooper, Gilbee, Hargrave, Moles, Skinner and Panos

I agree about the Reid pick.

Wouldn't Panos have another year on his contract? I think they will stick with Skinner for a bit longer so that won't give us a lot of changes and I think it's a certainty that Campbell will be upgraded and there is a fair chance Austin will.

[azabob]

RJ, I think it was established a week or so back DJ only signed a two year deal.

[Maddog37]

Lin Jong is killing it too so he may be listed....

Last year Addison would have been high on the list of possible delistings. Vez may never be fit enough and I would suggest the same issue with Zeph. Both have talent to burn but that is not enough.

Gia is having more and more trouble with his body too (I know he is contracted) and I see him and Higgins being the same player.

Allowing for what has been said about Panos he still needs to improve by growing a few inches or increasing his speed. Neither of which seem likely.

Still a long time left in this season and injuries etc to any of the older guys would have some bearing.

Very interesting times ahead.

[w3design]

There are a couple of obvious de-listings, after that it gets tough. There will be be some blokes that are going to be desperately unlucky. We are not forced to use all our picks in the draft anyway, and trading a couple of them in upgrades could be an option.
If this draft is as good as claimed, then we need to optimise our early picks, and as suggested some trade manoeuvring for an extra low pick might make sense.
However I think care needs to be taken not to give players on the list the feeling the club sees them as mere meat on the hook, especially now that free agency is in place. If the players start to feel the club sees any of them as expendable, then they have every right to think they should take the best financial deal and run.
We could then be back to the Bad old days where Footscray found and developed champion players, only to have the rich and powerful clubs pinch the best of them out from under us.

I think the end of this season will be a very difficult one for the recruiting and coaching groups, and while it will be fascinating to see what they do, I for one do not envy them this time.

[Mantis]

I think it was a mistake activating the Sam Reid pick.



One would hope (think) that we before activating this pick we would have crunched the numbers and no exactly how many picks we would be using at this years draft.

[chef]

One would hope (think) that we before activating this pick we would have crunched the numbers and no exactly how many picks we would be using at this years draft.

Maybe they did, but some players may perform better than expected.

[BulldogBelle]

Could we re-rookie a few players? They might not appreciate the large pay-cut though. Is it viable?

Someone like Moles, who if he doesn't come up this season then we know he still probably has something to give later.

[Cyberdoggie]

Could we re-rookie a few players? They might not appreciate the large pay-cut though. Is it viable?

Someone like Moles, who if he doesn't come up this season then we know he still probably has something to give later.

We could delist Moles and rookie him like we did Hahn.
But i believe you run the risk of someone else drafting him in that process (correct me if i'm wrong).

[Dancin' Douggy]

Moles Hooper Mulligan Gilbee gone.
I would trade Sherman. Surely we'd get SOMETHING for him. Ditto Djerkurra.

Shaggy I think might get the tap on the shoulder.
Addison at the start of the year was gone, but he might have a future under Bmac.

Rose coloured glasses off, and Panos is probably taking a spot on the list we should open up for young talent.

If we want to build for a tilt at the flag tough calls have to be made

[LostDoggy]

With limited time on the field over the last 2 games, Skinner has kicked a goal in each. Given Macca's philosophy of starting from scratch and developing his younger players, I'd be staggered if we invested the time into Skinner to see him improve sufficiently to warrant senior games whilst also believing that he wasn't good enough to stay on our list next year. I believe he has a lot of upside, which only maturity, game time and experience can test.

You move him on if you think there is no potential for real improvement.

[ledge]

Seems we have a very good list with the way we are finding it hard to pick players to delist.

[jazzadogs]

Moles Hooper Mulligan Gilbee gone.
I would trade Sherman. Surely we'd get SOMETHING for him. Ditto Djerkurra.

Shaggy I think might get the tap on the shoulder.
Addison at the start of the year was gone, but he might have a future under Bmac.

Rose coloured glasses off, and Panos is probably taking a spot on the list we should open up for young talent.

If we want to build for a tilt at the flag tough calls have to be made
I can't see any reason why we would trade away Sherman. Still young, has speed and still plenty of upside.

I would like to see Campbell, Jong and Austin retained on the rookie list, unless they show something over the rest of the season to say they deserve a spot. At this stage they would not be ahead of others in their position, and can therefore stay as rookies throughout next year unless we get a LTI.

Addison won't go.

Gilbee, Moles, Mulligan, Hooper seem to be the universally agreed delistings, I have no problems with that. Djerkurra and Skinner need to make the most of the opportunities they are getting.

[Go_Dogs]

Seems we have a very good list with the way we are finding it hard to pick players to delist.

Not sure I'd agree it's a very good list, but the mid-tier talent is pretty even and there's an argument both ways for a lot of players. With the picks we have it's a good opportunity to back ourselves in to select 4 or 5 100+ game players, and given we have a few likely rookie elevations at least a couple of tough decisions will need to be made.

Big last 2/3 of the season for a number of guys.

[w3design]

With the promise of this upcoming draft, some fringe guys really only seem to have the next couple of months to impress, or they might find themselves on the scrap heap unfortunately.
The problem seems to be, with all the promise in the wind, some guys are going to be under a lot of pressure, and some will be just plain unlucky.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

The problem is we don't have any A graders.

Our 'depth' is OK and it looks solid moving forward, but we are desperate to add some quality support for Griffen.

Hooper, Mulligan, Moles, Gilbee are gone.

Skinner, Panos if we need to cut deeper.

Maybe re-rookie Panos, who I still think has ability. I'm hoping he can have a good second half of the year, but he'll need to impress.

I think we should try to convince Hargrave to go another year.

[Hotdog60]

The problem is we don't have any A graders.

Our 'depth' is OK and it looks solid moving forward, but we are desperate to add some quality support for Griffen.

Hooper, Mulligan, Moles, Gilbee are gone.

Skinner, Panos if we need to cut deeper.

Maybe re-rookie Panos, who I still think has ability. I'm hoping he can have a good second half of the year, but he'll need to impress.

I think we should try to convince Hargrave to go another year.

Would you be concerned that he may turn into another Johnno in that he may have more trouble than not getting on the park. Once age takes hold the decline could be quite rapid.

[LostDoggy]

Would you be concerned that he may turn into another Johnno in that he may have more trouble than not getting on the park. Once age takes hold the decline could be quite rapid.

There is no sign of a decline with Hargrave. He is enjoying as good a season as he has had in the past.

I for one would be bitterly disappointed if he went, especially when he is one of the very few who is prepared to let the opposition know he is around.

[1eyedog]

Moles Hooper Mulligan Gilbee gone.
I would trade Sherman. Surely we'd get SOMETHING for him. Ditto Djerkurra.

Shaggy I think might get the tap on the shoulder.
Addison at the start of the year was gone, but he might have a future under Bmac.

Rose coloured glasses off, and Panos is probably taking a spot on the list we should open up for young talent.

If we want to build for a tilt at the flag tough calls have to be made

This won't happen, they are getting played every week so they have a future. Sherman is in the best 22 and DJ on the cusp. If Macca thought they weren't up to scratch they would be in the magoos.

Not many more consistent performers than Shaggy this year. he has the Dustin Fletcher build, if his body holds up I can see him going around next year and I wouldn't be unhappy with that.

[BulldogBelle]

This won't happen, they are getting played every week so they have a future. Sherman is in the best 22 and DJ on the cusp. If Macca thought they weren't up to scratch they would be in the magoos.

Not many more consistent performers than Shaggy this year. he has the Dustin Fletcher build, if his body holds up I can see him going around next year and I wouldn't be unhappy with that.




Sherman is one of the few senior players we have in the 100-150 game bracket - with speed to burn and aged in his mid 20s

Due to some speculative picks by Clayton we have very few of these players on our list

He wont be traded

Same as Shaggy - he and Lake have held together our backline this season, and is in very reasonable form

Your correct with respect to his build - pending injuries he could play a Darren Millburn role taking the 3rd or 4th best forward and prolong his career well into his 30s

[LostDoggy]

Playing devils advocate... Do we trade Lake at the end of this year, his currency has returned and would be high, and there are a few teams that would kill for a key defender.

[BulldogBelle]

The problem is we don't have any A graders.

Our 'depth' is OK and it looks solid moving forward, but we are desperate to add some quality support for Griffen.

Hooper, Mulligan, Moles, Gilbee are gone.

Skinner, Panos if we need to cut deeper.

Maybe re-rookie Panos, who I still think has ability. I'm hoping he can have a good second half of the year, but he'll need to impress.

I think we should try to convince Hargrave to go another year.



So we may have 7 picks in the draft this year (5 regular picks plus the Ward and Reid comp picks)???

And we may be delisting 4 players (Hooper, Mulligan, Moles & Gilbee) and may demote 1 to the rookie list (Panos possibly)

So we'll possibly have 2-3 surplus picks

1) Given the vintage and potential decline of the likes of Morris, Giansiracusa, Lake, Hargrave, Boyd, Murphy etc it would be prudent to trade a pick(s) for a role player with 100-150 games experience whose aged in his mid 20s

(given their age it could be feasible that at least one of them could go downhill very quickly given injuries, form etc)

No point paying overs for anyone - we may simply trade for a hard running, quick, mature, outside player who has decent footskills

2) Possibly trade multiple picks for an earlier selection

3) Keep a later selection for a f/s pick in Hunter (fingers crossed he doesnt go earlier)

[Cyberdoggie]

Playing devils advocate... Do we trade Lake at the end of this year, his currency has returned and would be high, and there are a few teams that would kill for a key defender.

True but i'm not sure we would get enough for him.
It would be a pretty stupid club to pay the money it would take us to off load him for 1 or 2 years of service. Perhaps Brisbane might be interested? :p


In all seriousness, he's a club legend now and it doesn't really sit well with me to trade a player out in his last couple of years. I think if we were going to do that we should of done it at his last contract renewel.

[azabob]

Playing devils advocate... Do we trade Lake at the end of this year, his currency has returned and would be high, and there are a few teams that would kill for a key defender.

I wouldn't think so. We would leak more goals, lose run and drive and lose a very experienced player. More damage in the short term than good in the long term. You don't trade high quality.

[Bulldog Joe]

I don't think you can have a blanket no to anything.

It is about what value you can create for all parties.

While I would not have a trade for Lake high on the agenda, what would Hawthorn give for someone like him.

At the end of the season it will be important to make the hard decisions that set up the list for the ensuing 3 to 5 years, when Lake, Morris, Boyd, Cross, Hargrave, Giansiracusa, Murphy and possibly Cooney will all be gone.

[hotdog]

What would Hawthorn give for someone like him? Not much I would not think. they would offer up some fringe hack and a token draft pick. Not going to happen. If the Bulldogs were going down this road it would have happened at last contract renewal. He is now contracted and will play the remainder of his career in the hoops and I for one am wrapped in this as he is a gun. You only have to look as far as the Demons to see the fallout with trading out you aging players for draft picks.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

True but i'm not sure we would get enough for him.
It would be a pretty stupid club to pay the money it would take us to off load him for 1 or 2 years of service. Perhaps Brisbane might be interested? :p


In all seriousness, he's a club legend now and it doesn't really sit well with me to trade a player out in his last couple of years. I think if we were going to do that we should of done it at his last contract renewel.

Lake and Murphy are the stars of a depleted backline following the losses of Morris, Williams, Markovic and Wood. Of all our key position players he rates very highly in his ability to more than match opposition key forwards. Lake is the one player that can consistently take strong marks overhead. We would trade him at our peril now with his fitness and form returning to his previous best.

[anfo27]

I don't think you can have a blanket no to anything.

It is about what value you can create for all parties.

While I would not have a trade for Lake high on the agenda, what would Hawthorn give for someone like him.

At the end of the season it will be important to make the hard decisions that set up the list for the ensuing 3 to 5 years, when Lake, Morris, Boyd, Cross, Hargrave, Giansiracusa, Murphy and possibly Cooney will all be gone.

agree with this. Although i love Lake & would like to see him play his career out with us but if a team wants him bad enough & is willing to pay overs for a crack at the flag then it should be looked at.
Of course that all depends on where our list is going & whether we get someone through free agency so we can have a crack at it ourself.
My reasoning is we just need as much high end talent we can get our hands on.

[Maddog37]

What about Tutt. He has hardly played I know but the rest of the year is important for him to show his value to the club. Also if Roberts and Talia are looking good then maybe one of Austin or Marko becomes redundant too.

[LostDoggy]

What about Tutt. He has hardly played I know but the rest of the year is important for him to show his value to the club. Also if Roberts and Talia are looking good then maybe one of Austin or Marko becomes redundant too.

This season has shown us the value in having your Markovics and Austins on the list. Wouldn't have thought that Talia and Roberts will come on rapidly enough that we can get rid of those guys.

[AndrewP6]

Playing devils advocate... Do we trade Lake at the end of this year, his currency has returned and would be high, and there are a few teams that would kill for a key defender.

And in the process we lose our best one? No thanks.

[LongWait]

I agree with Andrew - Lake is by so far our best defender that we would have to receive a stupid over-the-odds offer before we would even think about trading him.

Club culture is a fragile thing and it seems that the playing group are happy and have bought in to the McCartney game style and plan. Lake is a leader and it would be unwise to shop him around unless he really wants out.

[LostDoggy]

I agree with Andrew - Lake is by so far our best defender that we would have to receive a stupid over-the-odds offer before we would even think about trading him.

Club culture is a fragile thing and it seems that the playing group are happy and have bought in to the McCartney game style and plan. Lake is a leader and it would be unwise to shop him around unless he really wants out.

Whilst I agree with this; we'd surely take 2 1st round draft picks for Lake to set up our future and to let him win a flag elsewhere (if the opportunity was there). You certainly wouldn't force a trade on Lake though.

[jazzadogs]

Whilst I agree with this; we'd surely take 2 1st round draft picks for Lake to set up our future and to let him win a flag elsewhere (if the opportunity was there). You certainly wouldn't force a trade on Lake though.
That's not going to be offered for a 30+ year old though. I think if we receive an offer for him, they should acknowledge the offer as they would any other. But unless it is weighted in our favour, I wouldn't take it.

[Remi Moses]

Travis Boak?
Personally haven't seen alot of Port play ( they've been to putrid to consider)
Like to know what peoples thoughts are?

[Remi Moses]

Matty Panos is not going anywhere , he is in the middle of a program at the moment , he got sent to defense at Willi to work on the defensive side of his game and now he's back at HF showing what he did or did not learn , General Mac wants Matty to lift his game to a level where he can push for selection , I,m looking forward to seeing him wearing the Hoops

.

Agree, can't work out why people want Panos out!
They're clearly looking to improve his defensive side and also help him get some football in the back half. I think Mulligan and Hooper are certainties to go.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Travis Boak?
Personally haven't seen alot of Port play ( they've been to putrid to consider)
Like to know what peoples thoughts are?

I actually think Boak is a bit overrated. Skills aren't anything special and he isn't blessed with pace. He can win his own ball from stoppages/clearances and thus bring other players into the game, but with Libba/Wallis I don't think we really need him.

I know that the terms 'outside' and 'inside' are somewhat blurred these days, but Boak is definitely more of a contested player -- of which we have plenty of.

Just on Panos, I like him as a player and I hope he makes it, but he'll need a pretty solid second half of the year to keep his spot IMO. I'd say it's mainly due to this being a 'super draft' in which we will probably have 5-7 picks. Reality is somebody has to make way, and a KPP who struggles to get enough of the ball could fit this bill.

[LostDoggy]

Club culture is a fragile thing and it seems that the playing group are happy and have bought in to the McCartney game style and plan. Lake is a leader and it would be unwise to shop him around unless he really wants out.

100% correct.
Look at what Melbourne is going through. Proof it isn't as simple as completely flushing your team and using a heap of kids.

[w3design]

100% correct.
Look at what Melbourne is going through. Proof it isn't as simple as completely flushing your team and using a heap of kids.

Exactly right Hairy.
While we do need to plan for our future, we still need to live in the here and now.

Lakey is head and shoulders our best KPP on the list. And having him around for Roberts, Talia, Austin etc to learn from over the next couple of years, would be worth more to us than some marginal opposition player, and another draft pick.

The worst thing the club could do right now is demonstrate they don't value loyalty in the present environment [ free agency], and have our youngsters become accustomed to being part of a regularly losing team.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Agree, can't work out why people want Panos out!
They're clearly looking to improve his defensive side and also help him get some football in the back half. I think Mulligan and Hooper are certainties to go.

My understanding is that Panos isn't any certainty to survive beyond this year with the MC expecting more from him.

[azabob]

My understanding is that Panos isn't any certainty to survive beyond this year with the MC expecting more from him.

On or off the field?

[bulldogsman]

There's no way I'd be trading Lake either.
I'd consider trading Tom Williams depending what's offered up, can hardly get on the park.
Clayton and the Gold Coast might be interested.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I can't see any reason why we would trade away Sherman. Still young, has speed and still plenty of upside.

I would like to see Campbell, Jong and Austin retained on the rookie list, unless they show something over the rest of the season to say they deserve a spot. At this stage they would not be ahead of others in their position, and can therefore stay as rookies throughout next year unless we get a LTI.

Addison won't go.

Gilbee, Moles, Mulligan, Hooper seem to be the universally agreed delistings, I have no problems with that. Djerkurra and Skinner need to make the most of the opportunities they are getting.

I think the perception of what Sherman is, is greater than the sum of his parts.
He might have goal sense when he's only 5 meters out and crumbing a pack, he has got pace when he's running around like a headless chook. And yes, maybe he fits the profile of number of games played and age, but I would trade him OUT in a heartbeat.

As a player I would apply the following tags. Flashy, Lazy, Selfish, Reactive.
Reactive may be the most damning of all. He doesn't create anything.
He finishes off well if he's lucky enough (not SMART enough) to be in the right place at the right time).
I would rather lose Sherman than Skinner.

Just noticed he's been 'omitted ' this week. Maybe Bmac and I are on the same page.

[LostDoggy]

If we trade out Sherman we would get bugger all for him. 2 trades in 2 years?
Certainly less than the end round 1 compo we paid for him.
Can't see it happening.

As for keeping Skinner before him. That's just ridiculous. What's he done?

[AndrewP6]

There's no way I'd be trading Lake either.
I'd consider trading Tom Williams depending what's offered up, can hardly get on the park.
Clayton and the Gold Coast might be interested.

I think the bold bit would be their thoughts.

[Dancin' Douggy]

If we trade out Sherman we would get bugger all for him. 2 trades in 2 years?
Certainly less than the end round 1 compo we paid for him.
Can't see it happening.

As for keeping Skinner before him. That's just ridiculous. What's he done?

What has Sherman done?

[LostDoggy]

What has Sherman done?

More than skinner.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I would rather lose Sherman than Skinner.



That's ridiculous

[KT31]

That's ridiculous

^^^^^^
Agree

[chef]

What has Sherman done?

Effected the results of games, I can remember him being BOG in a final for the Lions against the Blues.

[Bulldog Joe]

I think the perception of what Sherman is, is greater than the sum of his parts.
He might have goal sense when he's only 5 meters out and crumbing a pack, he has got pace when he's running around like a headless chook. And yes, maybe he fits the profile of number of games played and age, but I would trade him OUT in a heartbeat.

As a player I would apply the following tags. Flashy, Lazy, Selfish, Reactive.
Reactive may be the most damning of all. He doesn't create anything.
He finishes off well if he's lucky enough (not SMART enough) to be in the right place at the right time).
I would rather lose Sherman than Skinner.

Just noticed he's been 'omitted ' this week. Maybe Bmac and I are on the same page.

You may well be right. Sherman doesn't meet the "crack in" philosophy of the coach.

[comrade]

You may well be right. Sherman doesn't meet the "crack in" philosophy of the coach.

I'm not sure I agree. There have been multiple occasions where Sherman has crashed in so hard that it took me by surprise.

[chef]

I'm not sure I agree. There have been multiple occasions where Sherman has crashed in so hard that it took me by surprise.

Agree with this, Shermo's definitely having a 'crack in'.

I am sure he's been told that he probably needs to work on a couple of things back at Willi and will be back in a game or two.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Ok I'm going to defend my stance against some pretty one dimensional opinions.

Sherman has done more than Skinner. OF COURSE HE HAS!!!!. He's played 134 games.
Skinner has played 3.

What has Sherman done for US is not huge.

I think Skinner has more upside than Sherman. Yes I do.

We've seen Sherman for 134 games, we know what he does, I can't see him improving dramatically, or reinventing himself from where he is.

Skinner is a 189 cm athlete, who can weave through traffic and change direction like a rover.
He has a huge leap and usually pretty good hands. From what I've seen at senior level he puts himself straight into the game. He goes to where the action is and chases, tackles, flies for marks and generally gets involved. He doesn't just hover round the fringes like Hill and Stack used to do.

He's averaging more goals per game than Sherman in 2012.

He's still raw and nervous and maybe needs a couple more pre seasons to get fully 'AFL' fit.

But, boy, if he does his upside is enormous.

He did the right thing moving from his tiny community in the Kimberley to Darwin to get fitter and play in a better league. He passed that test with flying colours and now I would love to see the club back him for at least 2 more years. He could be the electric player we lack up forward.

Personally I would be sadder to lose Skinner than Sherman.

A future with a fit and firing Skinner is more exciting than a future with a fit and firing Sherman.

There.

[LostDoggy]

Of course Skinner has more an upside. He is coming from a zero base. It's only up from there.
Lucky to be on the list this season, needs to make things happen quick smart or he'll be delisted this year.
Our saviour.

[Mofra]

Skinner has played 3 quarters
EFA - we've yet to see Skinner run out even half a game at the highest level.

In a team crying out for pace & outside run, Shermo can provide that. Skinner can provide a highlight then go missing for long periods of time.
I'd love to see Skinner make it as a footballer but I'm firmly in the "not convinced" camp until he can actually run out a game.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Ok I'm going to defend my stance against some pretty one dimensional opinions.

Sherman has done more than Skinner. OF COURSE HE HAS!!!!. He's played 134 games.
Skinner has played 3.

What has Sherman done for US is not huge.

I think Skinner has more upside than Sherman. Yes I do.

We've seen Sherman for 134 games, we know what he does, I can't see him improving dramatically, or reinventing himself from where he is.

Skinner is a 189 cm athlete, who can weave through traffic and change direction like a rover.
He has a huge leap and usually pretty good hands. From what I've seen at senior level he puts himself straight into the game. He goes to where the action is and chases, tackles, flies for marks and generally gets involved. He doesn't just hover round the fringes like Hill and Stack used to do.

He's averaging more goals per game than Sherman in 2012.

He's still raw and nervous and maybe needs a couple more pre seasons to get fully 'AFL' fit.

But, boy, if he does his upside is enormous.

He did the right thing moving from his tiny community in the Kimberley to Darwin to get fitter and play in a better league. He passed that test with flying colours and now I would love to see the club back him for at least 2 more years. He could be the electric player we lack up forward.

Personally I would be sadder to lose Skinner than Sherman.

A future with a fit and firing Skinner is more exciting than a future with a fit and firing Sherman.

There.

20 game rule

[chef]

20 game rule

:D I was waiting for that.

[Sedat]

That's ridiculousMy thoughts on Sherman are well-documented, but even I would choose to keep Sherman over Skinner. Having said that, I wouldn't lose a nanosecond of sleep if we lost both at the end of the season to be honest.

[1eyedog]

What has Sherman done?

He's got a B&F. Beat Black, Power, Risco et al. to it.

[LostDoggy]

Who potentially has the greatest upside for years into the future?
Who does more of what the coaches are asking?

Right now Sherman is clearly better but if he isn't doing enough of the team things, then he may have to look at changing his approach. Sherman has to take the game on and drill passes from the half back and centre. We need this type of player. Maybe that's why he's been given a spell.

I can only assume that Skinner is doing more of what is asked of him even his skill level is way behind Sherman's.

[Dancin' Douggy]

He's got a B&F. Beat Black, Power, Risco et al. to it.

I have to cop that. But what I should have said was "what has Sherman done for us?"

[LostDoggy]

I have to cop that. But what I should have said was "what has Sherman done for us?"

A bit more than 3 sub games and 2 flukely goals.

[chef]

I have to cop that. But what I should have said was "what has Sherman done for us?"

I can remember two games off the top of my head(against Freo over there and Pies at the G) where he was or was close to BOG for us.

[Greystache]

He's got a B&F. Beat Black, Power, Risco et al. to it.

No he hasn't, he came 2nd in 2006, which was his second and to date best season of his career

[Dancin' Douggy]

A bit more than 3 sub games and 2 flukely goals.
Yes, maybe a bit more

[1eyedog]

No he hasn't, he came 2nd in 2006, which was his second and to date best season of his career

Whoops my bad.

He's got a runner up to the 2006 B&F:o

Sorry DD

[Bumper Bulldogs]

It seems to be a flogging for two guys here which IMO will more likely not even get a run at the end of year.

This will be due to the fact that we will flick, Hooper, Gilbee & Cross at the end of the year. Question mark over Shaggys body also. The year after we will be looking at flicking Gia, Murphy, Shaggy, Cooney & Moles.

So with this mind the club might just want to keep a few player like Skinner and Sherman to back u for injuries.

If we loss Gilbee, Cross & Hargrave. Should we go after a Gun midfielder with the cash that is free?

[Sockeye Salmon]

It seems to be a flogging for two guys here which IMO will more likely not even get a run at the end of year.

This will be due to the fact that we will flick, Hooper, Gilbee & Cross at the end of the year. Question mark over Shaggys body also. The year after we will be looking at flicking Gia, Murphy, Shaggy, Cooney & Moles.

So with this mind the club might just want to keep a few player like Skinner and Sherman to back u for injuries.

If we loss Gilbee, Cross & Hargrave. Should we go after a Gun midfielder with the cash that is free?

Cross won't be going anywhere

[chef]

Right now I would have Gilbee, Hooper, Moles, Mulligan, Panos and Skinner(to be rookied) in the gun.

This would give us the 5 draft spots that we need plus a spot for a FA.

Don't see the point of upgrading Campbell or Austin after only one season on the rookie list as they aren't going anywhere.

[LongWait]

Right now I would have Gilbee, Hooper, Moles, Mulligan, Panos and Skinner(to be rookied) in the gun.

This would give us the 5 draft spots that we need plus a spot for a FA.

Don't see the point of upgrading Campbell or Austin after only one season on the rookie list as they aren't going anywhere.

Baring injuries, Austin would have to be a fair chance of being a late pick in the coming drafted given his performances to date.

He certainly compares well enough with some of the regular defenders in some other teams. A number of clubs would be worried about their defensive stocks (including us) and there might be one or two who might use a late pick on a pretty low-risk, mature player who is versatile and who allegedly can also play forward.

[Greystache]

Baring injuries, Austin would have to be a fair chance of being a late pick in the coming drafted given his performances to date.

He certainly compares well enough with some of the regular defenders in some other teams. A number of clubs would be worried about their defensive stocks (including us) and there might be one or two who might use a late pick on a pretty low-risk, mature player who is versatile and who allegedly can also play forward.

Unless you're talking about us promoting him to the main list (using our token last pick in the draft) that would involve Austin nominating for the draft and being delisted from our rookie list. Clubs can't draft players who are currently rookie listed. It would seem a really big risk for Austin if we decide not to promote him, and unless another club has given him a guarantee prior to the draft I couldn't see him taking that option.

[chef]

Baring injuries, Austin would have to be a fair chance of being a late pick in the coming drafted given his performances to date.

He certainly compares well enough with some of the regular defenders in some other teams. A number of clubs would be worried about their defensive stocks (including us) and there might be one or two who might use a late pick on a pretty low-risk, mature player who is versatile and who allegedly can also play forward.

I am under the impression he's on a multi-year rookie contract(so we would be better off up-grading him next season if his good form continues), is this not correct?

If not than I would also look at delisting Markovic and up-grading Austin.

[Rocco Jones]

Unless you're talking about us promoting him to the main list (using our token last pick in the draft) that would involve Austin nominating for the draft and being delisted from our rookie list. Clubs can't draft players who are currently rookie listed. It would seem a really big risk for Austin if we decide not to promote him, and unless another club has given him a guarantee prior to the draft I couldn't see him taking that option.


I am under the impression he's on a multi-year rookie contract(so we would be better off up-grading him next season if his good form continues), is this not correct?

If not than I would also look at delisting Markovic and up-grading Austin.

The only multi year rookie contracts I am aware of are for rookies who have to move interstate. Even then I believe the safety net is just there for the player. May have changed.

Austin would obviously only nominate for the draft if a side guaranteed to pick him but I believe that is a distinct possibility considering his form. 18 clubs, over 720 senior list spots available... I think Austin warrants one.

Of course if we can get away with keeping him on the rookie list we should but that goes without saying.

[jazzadogs]

I think our club has fallen into the trap of uneccessarily promoting players from the rookie list to the senior list, e.g. Hooper, Mulligan (Panos was not criticised much at the time, but could be another example).

My understanding is that you can keep a rookie on the rookie list for two years, and after that you decide what to do. Therefore, at this stage of the year I would think that Campbell and Austin stay on the rookie list for 2013 as insurance. If they continue to do their job next year, then look at promoting them full time.

[bornadog]

I think our club has fallen into the trap of uneccessarily promoting players from the rookie list to the senior list, e.g. Hooper, Mulligan (Panos was not criticised much at the time, but could be another example).

My understanding is that you can keep a rookie on the rookie list for two years, and after that you decide what to do. Therefore, at this stage of the year I would think that Campbell and Austin stay on the rookie list for 2013 as insurance. If they continue to do their job next year, then look at promoting them full time.

Hooper, Mulligan and Moles were promoted when they really shouldn't have been. Boyd, Dahlhaus, Morris go allright. I think Austin has done a great job and is getting a regular game and if he continues to improve deserves an upgrade.

[Greystache]

The only multi year rookie contracts I am aware of are for rookies who have to move interstate. Even then I believe the safety net is just there for the player. May have changed.

Austin would obviously only nominate for the draft if a side guaranteed to pick him but I believe that is a distinct possibility considering his form. 18 clubs, over 720 senior list spots available... I think Austin warrants one.

Of course if we can get away with keeping him on the rookie list we should but that goes without saying.

That's my understanding of rookie contracts too, but we can roll them over for a second year without needing to do anything, so unless he actively chose to pursue other options we're in no danger of someone poaching him. Guarantee's are a dangerous thing though, I'd heard Wade Skipper walked out on a second year rookie option from Hawthorn because another club had guaranteed to draft him (not a totally reliable source mind you), and he found himself playing at Port Melbourne last year after being overlooked in the draft.

Unless you're certain about another club's intentions, a bird in the hand....

[jazzadogs]

Hooper, Mulligan and Moles were promoted when they really shouldn't have been. Boyd, Dahlhaus, Morris go allright. I think Austin has done a great job and is getting a regular game and if he continues to improve deserves an upgrade.
I think it depends on a list management kind of perspective, rather than just looking at it as "he's in good form, promote him". Without actually looking at numbers, I wouldn't think that tall defenders is an area of concern on the list (unless we get bad luck with injuries, in which case we could promote from the rookie list). It also depends on who we are looking at in the draft...if we have a tall smokie lined up for the rookie draft then it might change plans.

Lake, Williams, Markovic as talls, Talia, Mulligan developing talls.
Morris, Hargrave mid-sized. I'm not sure if Roberts is being groomed in defence or attack. Rough, Cordy, Panos could all play back if we were desperate.

I understand the point, and won't be all that upset if he does continue his form and get promoted, but I think it's an interesting debate from a list management perspective. Lots of variables at this stage of the year.

Is there an accepted ratio of talls:smalls on a list?

[GVGjr]

Right now I would have Gilbee, Hooper, Moles, Mulligan, Panos and Skinner(to be rookied) in the gun.

This would give us the 5 draft spots that we need plus a spot for a FA.

Don't see the point of upgrading Campbell or Austin after only one season on the rookie list as they aren't going anywhere.

StKilda might be looking to get a ruckman so could snatch Campbell from us if we won't upgrade him and the Hawks are always looking for tall defenders so they might have their eye on Austin.

If we don't upgrade them we are likely to lose them.

I believe will will offer Campbell a 2 or 3 year (senior) deal before the end of the season.

[Desipura]

StKilda might be looking to get a ruckman so could snatch Campbell from us if we won't upgrade him and the Hawks are always looking for tall defenders so they might have their eye on Austin.

If we don't upgrade them we are likely to lose them.

I believe will will offer Campbell a 2 or 3 year (senior) deal before the end of the season.
I think you may be right.

[bulldogsman]

StKilda might be looking to get a ruckman so could snatch Campbell from us if we won't upgrade him and the Hawks are always looking for tall defenders so they might have their eye on Austin.

If we don't upgrade them we are likely to lose them.

I believe will will offer Campbell a 2 or 3 year (senior) deal before the end of the season.

I understand why we would upgrade Campbell for the reasons mentioned.

I don't really see the need to promote Austin though. He's been solid, thats all really. If he keeps improving perhaps, but I think we have enough depth (we still have 3 young tall defenders playing for Willy).

[azabob]

I understand why we would upgrade Campbell for the reasons mentioned.

I don't really see the need to promote Austin though. He's been solid, thats all really. If he keeps improving perhaps, but I think we have enough depth (we still have 3 young tall defenders playing for Willy).

Who are the 3? Talia.

[Greystache]

Who are the 3? Talia.

Roberts and Mulligan

[AndrewP6]

I think it depends on a list management kind of perspective, rather than just looking at it as "he's in good form, promote him". Without actually looking at numbers, I wouldn't think that tall defenders is an area of concern on the list (unless we get bad luck with injuries, in which case we could promote from the rookie list). It also depends on who we are looking at in the draft...if we have a tall smokie lined up for the rookie draft then it might change plans.

Lake, Williams, Markovic as talls, Talia, Mulligan developing talls.
Morris, Hargrave mid-sized. I'm not sure if Roberts is being groomed in defence or attack. Rough, Cordy, Panos could all play back if we were desperate.

I understand the point, and won't be all that upset if he does continue his form and get promoted, but I think it's an interesting debate from a list management perspective. Lots of variables at this stage of the year.

Is there an accepted ratio of talls:smalls on a list?

I'm not sure Mulligan is developing as we'd have hoped.

[LostDoggy]

Roberts and Mulligan

Surely Austin for Mulligan as a straight swop on the senior list is a no-brainer? If we want to give him regular games next year (and I see no reason why we wouldn't) we have to upgrade him don't we? He's been solid enough to be in the best 25-30 players on our list which means upgrade for me as he'd be likely to earn himself the 12-15+ games mark.

I also met his mum in our local fish 'n chip shop tonight wearing full bulldogs regalia so maybe I'm feeling overly generous. She was so proud and she's so happy he's not injured this year. It was a heartwarming chat (albeit quick) but it gave me the warm and fuzzies about the guy:)

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Surely Austin for Mulligan as a straight swop on the senior list is a no-brainer? If we want to give him regular games next year (and I see no reason why we wouldn't) we have to upgrade him don't we? He's been solid enough to be in the best 25-30 players on our list which means upgrade for me as he'd be likely to earn himself the 12-15+ games mark.

I agree and if Shaggy goes at years end, another back up would be a good thing and on performance he has done enough to be reward IMO,

On the other hand as a club would we throw Higgins out as trade bait. I cant see him having a role in our side for many more years, Always thought his best footy was played a a HFF, but he wanted to play midfield,

I'm sure other clubs would pick him up and with our younger guys coming throw do we really need a guy choc block full of potential but a tease in the fact we only see glimpses.

[azabob]

Roberts and Mulligan

Surely he couldn't include Mulligan as a realistic option?

[stefoid]

We arent trading Higgo - He is the type of player we want to trade for : underperforming (scope for improvement) with good footskills and the right age.

He''ll improve.

[bulldogsman]

Surely he couldn't include Mulligan as a realistic option?

Lol I think I did to my embarrassment :o. I may have been thinking of Panos as a back option, but thats probably just an excuse. Mulligan surely won't be on our list at years end.

We have Lake, Williams, Markovic, Morris, Roberts and Talia which is enough still IMO. Drop Markovic (who I don't rate) back to the rookie list if we must promote Austin.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Lol I think I did to my embarrassment :o. I may have been thinking of Panos as a back option, but thats probably just an excuse. Mulligan surely won't be on our list at years end.

We have Lake, Williams, Markovic, Morris, Roberts and Talia which is enough still IMO. Drop Markovic (who I don't rate) back to the rookie list if we must promote Austin.

You can't drop a listed player back to the rookie list. You have to delist them and try to re-draft them - and hope no-one else picks him up

[Ghost Dog]

Lol I think I did to my embarrassment :o. I may have been thinking of Panos as a back option, but thats probably just an excuse. Mulligan surely won't be on our list at years end.

We have Lake, Williams, Markovic, Morris, Roberts and Talia which is enough still IMO. Drop Markovic (who I don't rate) back to the rookie list if we must promote Austin.

Why don't you rate Marko? What do you see as his biggest deficiencies. Sorry, but I'm a Marko fan.

[azabob]

Lol I think I did to my embarrassment :o. I may have been thinking of Panos as a back option, but thats probably just an excuse. Mulligan surely won't be on our list at years end.

We have Lake, Williams, Markovic, Morris, Roberts and Talia which is enough still IMO. Drop Markovic (who I don't rate) back to the rookie list if we must promote Austin.

Ah it's ok bulldogsman, I didnt think you would rate Mulligan.

In this years draft crop do you think we will be able to get a quality midfielder with skills but also fits the McCartney mould of attacking the ball?

[Bulldog4life]

Right now I would have Gilbee, Hooper, Moles, Mulligan, Panos and Skinner(to be rookied) in the gun.

This would give us the 5 draft spots that we need plus a spot for a FA.

Don't see the point of upgrading Campbell or Austin after only one season on the rookie list as they aren't going anywhere.

Do we know for sure that Matthew Panos only had a one year contract when he was upgraded from the Rookie list.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

We arent trading Higgo - He is the type of player we want to trade for : underperforming (scope for improvement) with good footskills and the right age.

He''ll improve.

I agree with your sum up of him however your last statement has been kicking around for a few years now.

[GVGjr]

Do we know for sure that Matthew Panos only had a one year contract when he was upgraded from the Rookie list.


I'm sure they would all get two years or more. With Panos, it's very unlikely we would have offered a one year deal because we could have kept him as a rookie for another 12 months.

Sure we could break the contract but we tend to do that more when the attitude isn't right which isn't the case with Panos.

[Bulldog4life]

I'm sure they would all get two years or more. With Panos, it's very unlikely we would have offered a one year deal because we could have kept him as a rookie for another 12 months.

Sure we could break the contract but we tend to do that more when the attitude isn't right which isn't the case with Panos.

That's what I was thinking. If that is the case he is safe for another year if as you say his attitude is right.

[Rocco Jones]

A few posters have made comments about not retaining/upgrading players onto our senior list due to having too many of their type. IMO you don't delist/not upgrade an otherwise senior list quality player becasue you have too many of their type. If that's the case, you trade.

[LostDoggy]

In this years draft crop do you think we will be able to get a quality midfielder with skills but also fits the McCartney mould of attacking the ball?

Sadly we need three quick outside mids not one. Sydney mashed us up with these types :(

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

For me at this early stage of the season the retirements are: Gia, Gilbee & Shaggy
The delists: Moles, Mulligan, Hooper and Skinner.

Rookie upgrade for Austin, Johanissen (providing he comes back strongly from injury and continues his good early season form for Willy by the end of the year.
Possibly upgrade Campbell if we think he is going to press for selection next year regularly.

That leaves us with 4 places for draft picks (if Campbell is upgraded)

[GVGjr]

For me at this early stage of the season the retirements are: Gia, Gilbee & Shaggy
The delists: Moles, Mulligan, Hooper and Skinner.

Rookie upgrade for Austin, Johanissen (providing he comes back strongly from injury and continues his good early season form for Willy by the end of the year.
Possibly upgrade Campbell if we think he is going to press for selection next year regularly.

That leaves us with 4 places for draft picks (if Campbell is upgraded)

I like your logic but I think we have to dig deeper than 4 changes.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I like your logic but I think we have to dig deeper than 4 changes.

Agree, but these are the only guys I know who are definitely coming out of contract at the end of the year, apart from Minson (whom I hope will re-sign for us)
I am not sure who we might be thinking about trading out, but guys like Howard, Sherman, DJ and even Grant might come into that equation depending on what we could get for them, either draft or trade wise.

Also we need to perhaps consider whether we can afford to have both of Markovic and Austin on our list. If it's a choice then at this early stage of the season I would lean toward keeping Austin - due to the edge he has over Markovic with mobility.

[Greystache]

I like your logic but I think we have to dig deeper than 4 changes.

On top of those 4 we should be seriously looking at Tom Williams, he'll be 27 next season, is constantly injured, and even when fit his best is only mediocre. If we are to promote Austin I'd do it at Williams' expense.

Any interest from other clubs for Higgins should be seriously considered too.

[GVGjr]

Agree, but these are the only guys I know who are definitely coming out of contract at the end of the year, apart from Minson (whom I hope will re-sign for us)
I am not sure who we might be thinking about trading out, but guys like Howard, Sherman, DJ and even Grant might come into that equation depending on what we could get for them, either draft or trade wise.

Also we need to perhaps consider whether we can afford to have both of Markovic and Austin on our list. If it's a choice then at this early stage of the season I would lean toward keeping Austin - due to the edge he has over Markovic with mobility.

I don't have a problem with Markovic and Austin on the list along with Lake, Williams and Morris. Apparently Williams wants to be tried as a forward when he returns and Macca might be open to that suggestion.

Trading away a player for a draft pick or an improved draft pick position should be something we consider.

[Ghost Dog]

For me at this early stage of the season the retirements are: Gia, Gilbee & Shaggy
The delists: Moles, Mulligan, Hooper and Skinner.

Rookie upgrade for Austin, Johanissen (providing he comes back strongly from injury and continues his good early season form for Willy by the end of the year.
Possibly upgrade Campbell if we think he is going to press for selection next year regularly.

That leaves us with 4 places for draft picks (if Campbell is upgraded)

Shaggy has a few years left in him. Bit early to delist Skinner don't you think?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Shaggy has a few years left in him. Bit early to delist Skinner don't you think?

I don't think Skinner is anywhere near AFL level. Shaggy is difficult, but I'm not convinced he wants to go again and I'd rather us cut too soon, rather than too late.
The reality is we need to delist/retire at least 3 as a mandatory league requirement, 4 unless we trade one of our draft picks.

[Ghost Dog]

I don't think Skinner is anywhere near AFL level. Shaggy is difficult, but I'm not convinced he wants to go again and I'd rather us cut too soon, rather than too late.
The reality is we need to delist/retire at least 3 as a mandatory league requirement, 4 unless we trade one of our draft picks.

Ok I get you. I don't totally disagree and want to debate it.
How do we know Shaggy does not want to go around again?
Having given blokes like Mulligan and Hooper all the opportunity in the world, I find it a bit hard listen to calls for Skinner be delisted so soon.
Mulligan and Hooper might have some concerns for their future at the dogs.

[Mantis]

For me at this early stage of the season the retirements are: Gia, Gilbee & Shaggy


Gia signed a 2yr contract at the end of 2011... I doubt he will retire at the end of this year, so if it's forced it's going to cost us.

But he looks cooked.

[Greystache]

Gia signed a 2yr contract at the end of 2011... I doubt he will retire at the end of this year, so if it's forced it's going to cost us.

But he looks cooked.

Most people said at the time giving 2 years to Gia was a mistake, except the usual scapegoat crowd, his season is looking like confirming that.

[GVGjr]

How do we know Shaggy does not want to go around again?
.

I've seen him at the Players Sponsors room mention that because of his fused ankle he's concerned he won't be able to walk without considerable pain when he's 40. The impression he gave was that he would would look strongly at retiring when this contract was up. I respect him as a player and it's a hard decision but I tend to agree that he would have to be convincing to get another deal for 12 months.
With the state of our list and our ladder position it's just that much harder to justify keeping guys like Hargrave on. We don't want to lose 5 or 6 of the experienced guys at the end of next season so we might have to gently push one or two of them this year despite them potentially having another 12 months in them.

[azabob]

Ok I get you. I don't totally disagree and want to debate it.
How do we know Shaggy does not want to go around again?
Having given blokes like Mulligan and Hooper all the opportunity in the world, I find it a bit hard listen to calls for Skinner be delisted so soon.
Mulligan and Hooper might have some concerns for their future at the dogs.

Ghost Dog giving blokes like Mulligan and Hooper all the opportunity in the world is the reason we are in this with our list management.

GVG identified 3 years ago we are not cutting deeper enough with our fringe players like Mulligan, Hooper, Skinner etc and now it is coming back to bite us.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Ok I get you. I don't totally disagree and want to debate it.
How do we know Shaggy does not want to go around again?
Having given blokes like Mulligan and Hooper all the opportunity in the world, I find it a bit hard listen to calls for Skinner be delisted so soon.
Mulligan and Hooper might have some concerns for their future at the dogs.

It ain't easy to list manage, and in a perfect world where we were travelling well, maybe we could afford to persist with Zeph. I'm not trying to be contrary, I am just well aware of the need to make possibly 4 changes at a minimum just to be able to use our first 3 rounds of draft picks. How else do we make the changes necessary to use our current picks unless some difficult and possibly some unfair decisions might need to be made.

Precedent and fairness don't really come into it in these situations, and we cannot manage our list by precedent. That Mulligan and Hooper have remained on our list for this period of time in addition to the decision to activate our pick for Sam Reid this year might highlight why we have list problems at present.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Gia signed a 2yr contract at the end of 2011... I doubt he will retire at the end of this year, so if it's forced it's going to cost us.

But he looks cooked.

Jayzus, no wonder we have list problems.

[GVGjr]

Jayzus, no wonder we have list problems.

The trick is to manage the retirements of Gilbee, Hargrave, Giansiracusa, Murphy and Cross without all of them going in one season. Cooney might also pack his bags earlier than his age might otherwise say he should.

My understanding is that Giansiracusa will be on a smaller contract next year so I'm OK with that. He's still great at training and around the team so while I don't expect a lot from him next year it's not really a problem if Hargrave and Gilbee are in their last year.

[GVGjr]

Ghost Dog giving blokes like Mulligan and Hooper all the opportunity in the world is the reason we are in this with our list management.

GVG identified 3 years ago we are not cutting deeper enough with our fringe players like Mulligan, Hooper, Skinner etc and now it is coming back to bite us.

The problem was that we kept Eagleton, Hahn and Akermanis on for one season too many and missed a lot of development opportunities with younger players.

[FrediKanoute]

The problem was that we kept Eagleton, Hahn and Akermanis on for one season too many and missed a lot of development opportunities with younger players.

Yes we did, in hindsight, but we also played off in another Prelim. Short termism? Yes, but when the coaching staff are judged on the hear and now and not the future that is the strategy you see.

[GVGjr]

Yes we did, in hindsight, but we also played off in another Prelim. Short termism? Yes, but when the coaching staff are judged on the hear and now and not the future that is the strategy you see.

But those players didn't get us there. I get why Eade and the other coaches went down that road but Eagleton for example was probably kept 2 season past his best.

[F'scary]

Yeah, our list management needs to improve dramatically. So, to replenish our stocks, here is the end of season trade/delist list:

#1: Higgins. Trade week. Might be able to get a second round pick but even pick 50 will do. He is a dud.
#2: Gilbee. To the knackery. Should not have got a 2 year contract at the end of 2010. Bad mistake Eade. It’s probably why they sacked you.
#3: Gia. Pay out the contract, please. He’s cooked. He can go onto the long term injury list until then. Give someone a go who has the legs to at least chase an opponent.
#4: Cooney. Trade week. This is like Kelvin Templeton going to Melbourne. The club knew and he knew his knee was completely gone. But there were others who didn’t. He cut the rope to help his team. Cooney must do the same. We could get a high second round draft pick for him from someone like Gold Coast or GWS or whoever.
#5: Williams. Trade week. Injured too often. Completely unreliable as to availability. A draft pick around 30 for him would be very reasonable. Accept even pick 40.
#6: Morris. Trade week. Let’s face it, he’s never going to be the same if he gets back at all. See Cooney above. All we have to do is just get him doing a few laps of the oval at training and generate some press about how well his rehab is progressing. Someone will give us a third round draft pick on the value of the memories.
#7: Hooper. Can’t get a game after 3 years. Delist or better...cunning trade week plan. Get him to grow his hair into exactly the same style as Dahlhaus. Use extensions if necessary. Then carefully select and edit Dahlhaus footage and pass it off in the Hooper promotional pack.
#8: Mulligan. We’ve got too many ruck sized players and he moves like Robbie the Robot. Delist.
#9: Veszpremi. We recruited him as a small goal sneak. Now we’re telling him to run with the opposition’s small goal sneaks. No tank. No guts. Delist.
#10: Murphy. Retirement ("voluntary" if necessary). Sad but we don’t want a champ to have one season too many. Although playing well, the signs are there. This year should be his last to go out on a good note.
#11: Cross. Retirement ("voluntary"). Like Murphy. By the end of the season it will be obvious that the risk is too high for a dramatic falling away next year. Don’t take the chance on another Gia.
#12: Liam Jones. Trade week. His kicking for goal is so bad that he might as well not be on the ground. A second round draft pick will be fine but accept a third if that’s all there is on offer.
#13: Dickson. Seen enough. Will only ever play a few more games. Delist.

[AndrewP6]

Yeah, our list management needs to improve dramatically. So, to replenish our stocks, here is the end of season trade/delist list:

#1: Higgins. Trade week. Might be able to get a second round pick but even pick 50 will do. He is a dud.
#2: Gilbee. To the knackery. Should not have got a 2 year contract at the end of 2010. Bad mistake Eade. It’s probably why they sacked you.
#3: Gia. Pay out the contract, please. He’s cooked. He can go onto the long term injury list until then. Give someone a go who has the legs to at least chase an opponent.
#4: Cooney. Trade week. This is like Kelvin Templeton going to Melbourne. The club knew and he knew his knee was completely gone. But there were others who didn’t. He cut the rope to help his team. Cooney must do the same. We could get a high second round draft pick for him from someone like Gold Coast or GWS or whoever.
#5: Williams. Trade week. Injured too often. Completely unreliable as to availability. A draft pick around 30 for him would be very reasonable. Accept even pick 40.
#6: Morris. Trade week. Let’s face it, he’s never going to be the same if he gets back at all. See Cooney above. All we have to do is just get him doing a few laps of the oval at training and generate some press about how well his rehab is progressing. Someone will give us a third round draft pick on the value of the memories.
#7: Hooper. Can’t get a game after 3 years. Delist or better...cunning trade week plan. Get him to grow his hair into exactly the same style as Dahlhaus. Use extensions if necessary. Then carefully select and edit Dahlhaus footage and pass it off in the Hooper promotional pack.
#8: Mulligan. We’ve got too many ruck sized players and he moves like Robbie the Robot. Delist.
#9: Veszpremi. We recruited him as a small goal sneak. Now we’re telling him to run with the opposition’s small goal sneaks. No tank. No guts. Delist.
#10: Murphy. Retirement ("voluntary" if necessary). Sad but we don’t want a champ to have one season too many. Although playing well, the signs are there. This year should be his last to go out on a good note.
#11: Cross. Retirement ("voluntary"). Like Murphy. By the end of the season it will be obvious that the risk is too high for a dramatic falling away next year. Don’t take the chance on another Gia.
#12: Liam Jones. Trade week. His kicking for goal is so bad that he might as well not be on the ground. A second round draft pick will be fine but accept a third if that’s all there is on offer.
#13: Dickson. Seen enough. Will only ever play a few more games. Delist.

How many (slabs) have you had to drink tonight?

[GVGjr]

You missed Hargrave there F'scary. I can't agree with much of what you have written.

[FrediKanoute]

But those players didn't get us there. I get why Eade and the other coaches went down that road but Eagleton for example was probably kept 2 season past his best.

Not going to disagree, The Eagle and Johnno's last season were non-events. In their defence, we were close in 2009. We added Hall in 2010, won the NAB Cup and the decision to go with an experienced squad looked a good decision. I doubt any other team would have cut deeply in the middle of a premiership window.

[F'scary]

You missed Hargrave there F'scary. I can't agree with much of what you have written.

Ok, maybe Murphy should have one more season. Happy?

[F'scary]

How many (slabs) have you had to drink tonight? Not enough to kill the pain. I'm logging off now.

[GVGjr]

Ok, maybe Murphy should have one more season. Happy?

With what you have written? No way. It's way too ruthless and would rip the heart out of the club and leave us with a vastly poorer list. Basically it would set us back 5 years.

We are struggling with getting supporters to the games now and to get them to sign up as members but your cut or dump approach would simply be the death knell for the club.

Would you be happy with that?

There is no way Morris or Murphy should be delisted or traded.

[Sedat]

It ain't easy to list manageIt has certainly proven to be well beyond the capabilities of James Fantasia. Hopefully Jason McCartney makes a much better fist of the role.

[GVGjr]

It has certainly proven to be well beyond the capabilities of James Fantasia. Hopefully Jason McCartney makes a much better fist of the role.

In fairness to him it's only because of a lack of funding to the footy department that forced this role onto him. He has had other more pressing duties over the years.
I've been as critical of him on a few issues but we can't blame him for everything wrong with the list. If you don't have the time and the resources to manage the position properly then errors will follow and I think Fantasia deserves at least some latitude. Eade could have imposed himself a bit more on some of the list management decisions because I'm sure they weren't all done in splendid isolation.

Lets see how Jason McCartney goes.

[Evel]

With what you have written? No way. It's way too ruthless and would rip the heart out of the club and leave us with a vastly poorer list. Basically it would set us back 5 years.

We are struggling with getting supporters to the games now and to get them to sign up as members but your cut or dump approach would simply be the death knell for the club.

Would you be happy with that?

There is no way Morris or Murphy should be delisted or traded.

You have to give credit to the Hooper idea though. I'd buy 10 memberships if the club pulled that one off.

[Ghost Dog]

It ain't easy to list manage, and in a perfect world where we were travelling well, maybe we could afford to persist with Zeph. I'm not trying to be contrary, I am just well aware of the need to make possibly 4 changes at a minimum just to be able to use our first 3 rounds of draft picks. How else do we make the changes necessary to use our current picks unless some difficult and possibly some unfair decisions might need to be made.

Precedent and fairness don't really come into it in these situations, and we cannot manage our list by precedent. That Mulligan and Hooper have remained on our list for this period of time in addition to the decision to activate our pick for Sam Reid this year might highlight why we have list problems at present.


Ghost Dog giving blokes like Mulligan and Hooper all the opportunity in the world is the reason we are in this with our list management.

GVG identified 3 years ago we are not cutting deeper enough with our fringe players like Mulligan, Hooper, Skinner etc and now it is coming back to bite us.

These are good points. A series of bad list decisions have culminated big holes in the list.

Granted; precedent argument. But guys, having said all that, Woop Woop to Darwin to Melbourne is a pretty steep learning curve. Saw Skinner up close in Ballarat and he's a footy player who wants it badly, can run, and is learning. I'd give him a at least the chance to have two winters in Melbourne before booting him out of the doghouse. He's pretty young too, remember that. At the end of the day, at least he offers some forward defensive pressure. In other words, at least he can run. Watching our blokes plod after their goal sneaks today was annoying to say the least. FWD pressure is something we seriously suck at. Was like Sydney had an extra quarter of a field today.

[Ghost Dog]

I've seen him at the Players Sponsors room mention that because of his fused ankle he's concerned he won't be able to walk without considerable pain when he's 40. The impression he gave was that he would would look strongly at retiring when this contract was up. I respect him as a player and it's a hard decision but I tend to agree that he would have to be convincing to get another deal for 12 months.
With the state of our list and our ladder position it's just that much harder to justify keeping guys like Hargrave on. We don't want to lose 5 or 6 of the experienced guys at the end of next season so we might have to gently push one or two of them this year despite them potentially having another 12 months in them.

Thanks for that insider info GVGjr, I guess it's for the best then.

[bulldogsman]

You can't drop a listed player back to the rookie list. You have to delist them and try to re-draft them - and hope no-one else picks him up

I know, as I said I don't rate him and it wouldn't worry me if we lost him.
I think Kyle Hartigan is just as good and this draft has quite a good number of good key defenders to pick from.


Why don't you rate Marko? What do you see as his biggest deficiencies. Sorry, but I'm a Marko fan.

Can be a little limitted to the forwards he can take, too slow. Allows the ball get to the back too often for my liking and under pressure his decision making can be a little iffy at times. Provides little rebound from defence.


Ah it's ok bulldogsman, I didnt think you would rate Mulligan.

In this years draft crop do you think we will be able to get a quality midfielder with skills but also fits the McCartney mould of attacking the ball?

For sure. It looks to be a midfielders draft.

I'm looking very closely at Josh Simpson, Rory Atkins and Troy Menzel at the champs. McCartney would love Atkins.

[Ghost Dog]

Can be a little limitted to the forwards he can take, too slow. Allows the ball get to the back too often for my liking and under pressure his decision making can be a little iffy at times. Provides little rebound from defence.


Considering that he is still young, can we hope for some improvement in the areas you mentioned above?

Then, imagine Brian getting injured. What might our contingency plan be?
( considering Williams is out and Morris has a question mark hanging over his leg ). How are we going to match up against sides with two tall forwards?

[Remi Moses]

Apparently the younger Menzel had Lars surgery a few years ago.
Just hope it's not a family thing

[chef]

Whats our Vet list status?

[LostDoggy]

I don't think we will be able to keep and maybe even want to keep either Minson or Roughead.
Number of clubs looking for experienced rucks.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Whats our Vet list status?

Lake, Murphy and Gia all qualify next year. Maybe Boyd (next year will be his 10th?)


Actually, I think the first 3 qualified this year but we already had Gilbee and Hargrave on the vets list. In that case Cross will also be eligible next year.

[Desipura]

I don't think we will be able to keep and maybe even want to keep either Minson or Roughead.
Number of clubs looking for experienced rucks.
If we got a Godfather deal for Minson that would be the only time I would consider trading him, same for Roughead (I think he has more updside though)

[bulldogsman]

Considering that he is still young, can we hope for some improvement in the areas you mentioned above?

Then, imagine Brian getting injured. What might our contingency plan be?
( considering Williams is out and Morris has a question mark hanging over his leg ). How are we going to match up against sides with two tall forwards?

Well we can't do anything about his pace. It's possible he could improve, but I don't see a long term future for him. Sorry, but key defenders aren't that hard to find of Markovic's ability IMO.

If Markovic gets nabbed by someone else, we could always rookie another mature ager as insurance. We would still have Austin on the main list as well as Talia and Roberts.

[LostDoggy]

If we got a Godfather deal for Minson that would be the only time I would consider trading him, same for Roughead (I think he has more updside though)

Minson is a free agent at the end of year. We have to match opposition offers to keep him.

What I've seen of Roughead isnt that encouraging. Debatble whether Minson was better at the same age.

[Cyberdoggie]

Minson is a free agent at the end of year. We have to match opposition offers to keep him.

What I've seen of Roughead isnt that encouraging. Debatble whether Minson was better at the same age.

I think Roughead has shown glimpses of being very good in the middle, and can occasionally take a nice grab, he just has the absolute yips when kicking for goal, needs to get stronger and fitter.

[Mofra]

Not going to disagree, The Eagle and Johnno's last season were non-events. In their defence, we were close in 2009. We added Hall in 2010, won the NAB Cup and the decision to go with an experienced squad looked a good decision. I doubt any other team would have cut deeply in the middle of a premiership window.
Johnno deserved to go around again - he finished 4th in our B&F. Nobody would have predicted an errant golf cart would nab him in the pre-season.

[Mantis]

Johnno deserved to go around again - he finished 4th in our B&F. Nobody would have predicted an errant golf cart would nab him in the pre-season.

He was also close to our best player in the '09 PF.

[LostDoggy]

He was also close to our best player in the '09 PF.

Yep. No problem keeping absolute champions one year too long (I mean, it was Johnno). My problem is keeping role players too long. In other words, Morris and Murph: happy to go a year too long. Eagleton and Gilbee: not so much. Hooper and Mulligan: simply ridiculous.

[Rocco Jones]

Yep. No problem keeping absolute champions one year too long (I mean, it was Johnno). My problem is keeping role players too long. In other words, Morris and Murph: happy to go a year too long. Eagleton and Gilbee: not so much. Hooper and Mulligan: simply ridiculous.

I wouldn't mind keeping Gilbee a year too long due to what he has done for the club. The issue is we are going to end up keeping for two years too long after last year.

I would always give the benefit of the doubt to the life member, loyal servant types with one-year deals. The problem is with multi-year contracts. We would/should have delisted Gilbee last year if he didn't have another year to run on his contract, same with Gia.

[HOSE B ROMERO]

Providing their contracts are up (by the way, how do you guys know whose contracts are up?), the 5 i would delist would be: Gilbee, Panos, Moles, Hooper and Mulligan. Shaggy may retire, i think Gia should (but won't). Would trade Higgins or Sherman and maybe Grant. Of the rookies would promote either Austin or Campbell...

[Ghost Dog]

Well we can't do anything about his pace. It's possible he could improve, but I don't see a long term future for him. Sorry, but key defenders aren't that hard to find of Markovic's ability IMO.

If Markovic gets nabbed by someone else, we could always rookie another mature ager as insurance. We would still have Austin on the main list as well as Talia and Roberts.

Austin seems to be traveling quite well in the eyes of posters doesn't he? More so than Marko it seems. Fair enough. Although I think good key defenders are a bit harder to find than you think.

[LostDoggy]

For sure. It looks to be a midfielders draft.

I'm looking very closely at Josh Simpson, Rory Atkins and Troy Menzel at the champs. McCartney would love Atkins.

Well at least there is hope on the horizon. If we take more than 1 tall this draft (unless we get two ridiculous, would be stupid to pass up opportunities) I shall spew. Have to get 3-4 good run/carry midfielders.

We can always use a good Atkins. I miss the old one!

[Remi Moses]

Well at least there is hope on the horizon. If we take more than 1 tall this draft (unless we get two ridiculous, would be stupid to pass up opportunities) I shall spew. Have to get 3-4 good run/carry midfielders.

We can always use a good Atkins. I miss the old one!

Don't miss the Atkins toe poke because he wouldn't put his body on the line.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Considering that he is still young, can we hope for some improvement in the areas you mentioned above?

Then, imagine Brian getting injured. What might our contingency plan be?
( considering Williams is out and Morris has a question mark hanging over his leg ). How are we going to match up against sides with two tall forwards?

Markovic isn't young. He's 26 years old.

I agree with bulldogsman; we would be able to find (younger) KD's equal or better to Markovic's ability. I think Austin is miles ahead of him, and Austin is more of a 'third' tall.

[Bulldog Joe]

Markovic isn't young. He's 26 years old.

I agree with bulldogsman; we would be able to find (younger) KD's equal or better to Markovic's ability. I think Austin is miles ahead of him, and Austin is more of a 'third' tall.

People should not be comparing Austin with Markovic.

While Austin has done really well, he has definitely been out muscled by the big forwards.
I see Austin as more like Morris and Hargrave, but not really capable of relieving Lake.

Markovic has the strength to match the monster forwards. I see both worth a spot on the list.

[GVGjr]

People should not be comparing Austin with Markovic.

While Austin has done really well, he has definitely been out muscled by the big forwards.
I see Austin as more like Morris and Hargrave, but not really capable of relieving Lake.

Markovic has the strength to match the monster forwards. I see both worth a spot on the list.

Agreed. Both are worth a spot on our list.

[bulldogsman]

Austin seems to be traveling quite well in the eyes of posters doesn't he? More so than Marko it seems. Fair enough. Although I think good key defenders are a bit harder to find than you think.

I agree that 'good' key defenders are hard to find. I guess my argument is Markovic is not and will not be a good key defender. He's a solid back up option, that's all. I have also always felt that Markovic should have never been on the main list to begin with. He should have been drafted as a rookie like Austin was. But hey, that's just my opinion.

[Ghost Dog]

I agree that 'good' key defenders are hard to find. I guess my argument is Markovic is not and will not be a good key defender. He's a solid back up option, that's all. I have also always felt that Markovic should have never been on the main list to begin with. He should have been drafted as a rookie like Austin was. But hey, that's just my opinion.

I understand your view. Marko is a dour defender, and like Picken and others, will never be a 'star' but just grinds it out. Earlier this year, he played in games ( Eagles especially) where the back 50 was like a floodgate. It's pretty easy to dump the plodder label on a player in this position. If the coach is going to throw a player into the deep, so be it, but there are long term risks with that. Affecting their confidence is one.
So, I'd be happy to see him play until the end of the season against some other opposition set ups first before making a judgement.

[Ghost Dog]

Markovic isn't young. He's 26 years old.

I agree with bulldogsman; we would be able to find (younger) KD's equal or better to Markovic's ability. I think Austin is miles ahead of him, and Austin is more of a 'third' tall.

Age is not so much of an imperitive with backmen. Dustin fletcher, Brian Lake, Johncock, lots of good aging backmen doing well because you need that strength and the smarts.
Like others, think it's silly to comopare Marko with Austin. One is lanky, the other, an arm wrestler.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

People should not be comparing Austin with Markovic.

While Austin has done really well, he has definitely been out muscled by the big forwards.
I see Austin as more like Morris and Hargrave, but not really capable of relieving Lake.

Markovic has the strength to match the monster forwards. I see both worth a spot on the list.

They are different players, but Austin has still been given some pretty big jobs on key forwards and IMO handled himself really well. As I said, in the ideal world, he's a third tall -- Williams taking the second.

Besides being OK body on body, I don't think Markovic offers a lot -- especially against quality opponents.


Age is not so much of an imperitive with backmen. Dustin fletcher, Brian Lake, Johncock, lots of good aging backmen doing well because you need that strength and the smarts.
Like others, think it's silly to comopare Marko with Austin. One is lanky, the other, an arm wrestler.

Fletcher, Lake and Johncock are all elite players though and have been for a number of years.

As bulldogsman said, it pretty much comes down a matter of opinion at the moment, but I feel like we could do better than stick with Markovic.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Yeah, our list management needs to improve dramatically. So, to replenish our stocks, here is the end of season trade/delist list:

#1: Higgins. Trade week. Might be able to get a second round pick but even pick 50 will do. He is a dud.
#2: Gilbee. To the knackery. Should not have got a 2 year contract at the end of 2010. Bad mistake Eade. It’s probably why they sacked you.
#3: Gia. Pay out the contract, please. He’s cooked. He can go onto the long term injury list until then. Give someone a go who has the legs to at least chase an opponent.
#4: Cooney. Trade week. This is like Kelvin Templeton going to Melbourne. The club knew and he knew his knee was completely gone. But there were others who didn’t. He cut the rope to help his team. Cooney must do the same. We could get a high second round draft pick for him from someone like Gold Coast or GWS or whoever.
#5: Williams. Trade week. Injured too often. Completely unreliable as to availability. A draft pick around 30 for him would be very reasonable. Accept even pick 40.
#6: Morris. Trade week. Let’s face it, he’s never going to be the same if he gets back at all. See Cooney above. All we have to do is just get him doing a few laps of the oval at training and generate some press about how well his rehab is progressing. Someone will give us a third round draft pick on the value of the memories.
#7: Hooper. Can’t get a game after 3 years. Delist or better...cunning trade week plan. Get him to grow his hair into exactly the same style as Dahlhaus. Use extensions if necessary. Then carefully select and edit Dahlhaus footage and pass it off in the Hooper promotional pack.
#8: Mulligan. We’ve got too many ruck sized players and he moves like Robbie the Robot. Delist.
#9: Veszpremi. We recruited him as a small goal sneak. Now we’re telling him to run with the opposition’s small goal sneaks. No tank. No guts. Delist.
#10: Murphy. Retirement ("voluntary" if necessary). Sad but we don’t want a champ to have one season too many. Although playing well, the signs are there. This year should be his last to go out on a good note.
#11: Cross. Retirement ("voluntary"). Like Murphy. By the end of the season it will be obvious that the risk is too high for a dramatic falling away next year. Don’t take the chance on another Gia.
#12: Liam Jones. Trade week. His kicking for goal is so bad that he might as well not be on the ground. A second round draft pick will be fine but accept a third if that’s all there is on offer.
#13: Dickson. Seen enough. Will only ever play a few more games. Delist.

Ok. F'scary, you've been hammered a bit for this one and it seems you may have partaken of a hindquarter of a slab or 2 but..............

You know what? I think that this is a pretty good blueprint to work from.

I'd rather start with a list like this and then ease it back, than just 'get a trim round the edges but essentially ask the barber for a 'bowl cut'.
In other words "just leave it like it is and cut off the small bits that are obviously wrong".

I don't agree with all of these trades/delistings but I'd rather go hard than soft and I think Higgins is one I have to agree with.

[LostDoggy]

People should not be comparing Austin with Markovic.

While Austin has done really well, he has definitely been out muscled by the big forwards.
I see Austin as more like Morris and Hargrave, but not really capable of relieving Lake.

Markovic has the strength to match the monster forwards. I see both worth a spot on the list.

I spoke to Tommy at the game at Whitten Oval on the 20th , he said that if the defense is stable with Lake and Markovic as the two talls he would speak to the coaching staff about a move to CFH , sounds fine to me in principle

Now when Tommy comes off the LTIL Austin has to go back to Willi , next year I don,t have a problem with having the three of them on the list if Mulligan is traded or delisted

Austin is probably the most suited to a utility role on a tall or small , safe mark , good technique with spoils and taps and is clean off the ground , the last part is what separates him from Williams and Markovic

.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Yeah, our list management needs to improve dramatically. So, to replenish our stocks, here is the end of season trade/delist list:

#1: Higgins. Trade week. Might be able to get a second round pick but even pick 50 will do. He is a dud.
#2: Gilbee. To the knackery. Should not have got a 2 year contract at the end of 2010. Bad mistake Eade. It’s probably why they sacked you.
#3: Gia. Pay out the contract, please. He’s cooked. He can go onto the long term injury list until then. Give someone a go who has the legs to at least chase an opponent.
#4: Cooney. Trade week. This is like Kelvin Templeton going to Melbourne. The club knew and he knew his knee was completely gone. But there were others who didn’t. He cut the rope to help his team. Cooney must do the same. We could get a high second round draft pick for him from someone like Gold Coast or GWS or whoever.
#5: Williams. Trade week. Injured too often. Completely unreliable as to availability. A draft pick around 30 for him would be very reasonable. Accept even pick 40.
#6: Morris. Trade week. Let’s face it, he’s never going to be the same if he gets back at all. See Cooney above. All we have to do is just get him doing a few laps of the oval at training and generate some press about how well his rehab is progressing. Someone will give us a third round draft pick on the value of the memories.
#7: Hooper. Can’t get a game after 3 years. Delist or better...cunning trade week plan. Get him to grow his hair into exactly the same style as Dahlhaus. Use extensions if necessary. Then carefully select and edit Dahlhaus footage and pass it off in the Hooper promotional pack.
#8: Mulligan. We’ve got too many ruck sized players and he moves like Robbie the Robot. Delist.
#9: Veszpremi. We recruited him as a small goal sneak. Now we’re telling him to run with the opposition’s small goal sneaks. No tank. No guts. Delist.
#10: Murphy. Retirement ("voluntary" if necessary). Sad but we don’t want a champ to have one season too many. Although playing well, the signs are there. This year should be his last to go out on a good note.
#11: Cross. Retirement ("voluntary"). Like Murphy. By the end of the season it will be obvious that the risk is too high for a dramatic falling away next year. Don’t take the chance on another Gia.
#12: Liam Jones. Trade week. His kicking for goal is so bad that he might as well not be on the ground. A second round draft pick will be fine but accept a third if that’s all there is on offer.
#13: Dickson. Seen enough. Will only ever play a few more games. Delist.

Guess what can i say.

I agree with 1,2,7 & 11 we still need a few boys to take the field

happy to fish around for Higgo, Gilbee and Hooper will not get games this year and Cross I can see the younger guys taking his spot no problem next year.

That's it

[LostDoggy]

Ok. F'scary, you've been hammered a bit for this one and it seems you may have partaken of a hindquarter of a slab or 2 but..............

You know what? I think that this is a pretty good blueprint to work from.

I'd rather start with a list like this and then ease it back, than just 'get a trim round the edges but essentially ask the barber for a 'bowl cut'.
In other words "just leave it like it is and cut off the small bits that are obviously wrong".

I don't agree with all of these trades/delistings but I'd rather go hard than soft and I think Higgins is one I have to agree with.

If you wanted to take that approach, you'd start with every single player eligible to be cut or traded, on the cutting board, then work your way back.

Side note:

1000 posts! Hoorah!!

[LostDoggy]

After seeing yesterday's Williamstown game.
I think there are few more in gun than others believe.
Apart from the obvious Moles, Hooper, Mulligan and Gilbee.
I think Skinner is miles away from afl standard. Painted as a saviour but struggles at vfl level.
Hill? Gone backwards after looking good earlier this season. Young but 2nd chance already. Should be a rookie really.

[Ghost Dog]

After seeing yesterday's Williamstown game.
I think there are few more in gun than others believe.
Apart from the obvious Moles, Hooper, Mulligan and Gilbee.
I think Skinner is miles away from afl standard. Painted as a saviour but struggles at vfl level.
Hill? Gone backwards after looking good earlier this season. Young but 2nd chance already. Should be a rookie really.

Bollocks. Wet day for talls. Made some great marking attempts and just needs stronger hands. Not a fair assessment of his game.

[Ghost Dog]

If you wanted to take that approach, you'd start with every single player eligible to be cut or traded, on the cutting board, then work your way back.

Side note:

1000 posts! Hoorah!!

Congrats BAS!

[Dancin' Douggy]

If you wanted to take that approach, you'd start with every single player eligible to be cut or traded, on the cutting board, then work your way back.

Side note:

1000 posts! Hoorah!!

that is correct

[Rocco Jones]

There are only probably 3 real specialist positions left in the game IMO. Key-defender, key-forward and 1st ruck. I think Markovic offers us at least a mature, game ready back up as a key-defender and that warrants a spot on a list of 40 IMO.

[Ghost Dog]

Who are our foundation players?

Boyd: Captain
Jones : Made a strong statement yesterday. Looked great
Brian: A very important player for us.
Libba and Mitch: Maturing well and fortunate to get these father son picks
Griffen
Picken - Would make a very good future captain IMO
Clay Smith
Cordy
Dahlhaus
J Roughead
Minson
Murphy
Cross ( one more year to go on Contract?
Morris ( I believe he will regain his confidence as he has the right attitude )
Markovic: solid physical presence down back


Players any opposition coach would want. I would add Adam but his salary is based on past form.
I'd happily have him in there ( think he is being underestimated by many ) if that can be reduced.

Question marks

Shaun, Dickson, Djekurra, Austin, Redpath, Campbell, Williams : the next few months will be very important for them.
I have optimism for Tory Dickson, Campbell, and a few others.

Gia: In his last season and has been a great servant of the club

Skinner: Work in progress. Like what I saw yesterday and starting to adapt. Put his head over the ball a few times nicely. Came very close to taking a few grabs that would have stuck on a dry day. If you are going to select players from very regional areas, you have to be patient; or don't pick them. He clearly loves his footy and gave it a real crack yesterday.

Trade options:

Vezpremi - has been a good experiment but Fletcher Roberts is taller
A player who may serve another club well and not mind a change as he has not been at the club for a while

Pearce: Just think he is a bit short? Lacks a bit of pace? not sure. Still, a good player and won't be disappointed if we keep him, but we need to trade someone.

Williams: Hate to say it, but not sure if his body is cut out for AFL. There has been talk of a forward line role, but as an alternative, he may find a role with another club due to his height.

Delist
Hooper - A good, solid VFL level player who has worked hard despite his limitations. He has had his window of opportunity
Mulligan - Same as above
Dylan - an important contributor for 2012 but may find it hard to keep his spot as we need to develop younger players. Not sure we would get anyone interested in him.
Lindsay - Has made a good contribution to the club. Was once noted for his kicking but as we saw yesterday, can't be said of his current form.

[LostDoggy]

Bollocks. Wet day for talls. Made some great marking attempts and just needs stronger hands. Not a fair assessment of his game.

Where did I comment on his game yesterday? It's an assessment over the last 2 monthes.
Anyway he struggles to mark in most conditions. Also the conditions didn't seem to worry Jones' marking.

[Ghost Dog]

Where did I comment on his game yesterday? It's an assessment over the last 2 monthes.
Anyway he struggles to mark in most conditions. Also the conditions didn't seem to worry Jones' marking.

He's getting better. Understand many fans want instant results. But this is the real world.

[Sockeye Salmon]

He's getting better. Understand many fans want instant results. But this is the real world.

The real world is Skinner is not even VFL standard.

If it wasn't for Mulligan, Skinner would be the worst player on our list.

[chef]

The real world is Skinner is not even VFL standard.

If it wasn't for Mulligan, Skinner would be the worst player on our list.

Agree with this, he looks miles off VFL standard let alone AFL standard. I find it odd that he's gotten so many chances so far at Bulldog level when probably more deserving guys don't.

[chef]

He's getting better. Understand many fans want instant results. But this is the real world.

The real world is he has two years to show he deserves a spot on the list or he's gone. Considering this is his second he would want to start showing a bit more than he has.

[Ghost Dog]

Agree with this, he looks miles off VFL standard let alone AFL standard. I find it odd that he's gotten so many chances so far at Bulldog level when probably more deserving guys don't.


Well seems like a whole lot of people disagree with you. Western Bulldogs selectors, Williamstown selectors. Just disagree that he is not VFL standard. A bit harsh don't you think? You feel like the selectors at the Seagulls, Peter German and others are completely clueless? Has a great step of pace, learning and improving. Has a good second effort. Working on his basics. Learning to put his head over the ball. Might not get a permanent spot in the AFL but is certainly giving it his all. Well done Zephania.

[Ghost Dog]

The real world is Skinner is not even VFL standard.

If it wasn't for Mulligan, Skinner would be the worst player on our list.

Well Skinner is in the VFL in the real world.

[chef]

Well seems like a whole lot of people disagree with you. Western Bulldogs selectors, Williamstown selectors. Just disagree that he is not VFL standard. A bit harsh don't you think? You feel like the selectors at the Seagulls, Peter German and others are completely clueless? Has a great step of pace, learning and improving. Has a good second effort. Working on his basics. Learning to put his head over the ball. Might not get a permanent spot in the AFL but is certainly giving it his all. He didn't select himself did he? All we can ask. Well done Zephania.

Not clueless, they are just picking him on potential which unfortunately he's not fulfilling IMO. His main problem is he has one of the worst first touches I can remember of a dogs player which leads him into having to put on so many second and third efforts. Sorry GD I'm not a fan.

[Ghost Dog]

Not clueless, they are just picking him on potential which unfortunately he's not fulfilling IMO. His main problem is he has one of the worst first touches I can remember of a dogs player which leads him into having to put on so many second and third efforts. Sorry GD I'm not a fan.

Fair enough. Agree to disagree. Too early to tell IMO
By the way, manage to catch the game V Box Hill?

[GVGjr]

Well seems like a whole lot of people disagree with you. Western Bulldogs selectors, Williamstown selectors. Just disagree that he is not VFL standard. A bit harsh don't you think? You feel like the selectors at the Seagulls, Peter German and others are completely clueless? Has a great step of pace, learning and improving. Has a good second effort. Working on his basics. Learning to put his head over the ball. Might not get a permanent spot in the AFL but is certainly giving it his all. Well done Zephania.

Skinner is certainly being played more so on potential than achievements so far. German and co play him because it's seen in the best interests of the club and I think if it was just pure form he might have had a couple of games in the reserves. Good luck to him but on what I have seen he is still coming from a fair way back. I like his athleticism but he is very much a work in progress.

[Ghost Dog]

Skinner is certainly being played more so on potential than achievements so far. German and co play him because it's seen in the best interests of the club and I think if it was just pure form he might have had a couple of games in the reserves. Good luck to him but on what I have seen he is still coming from a fair way back. I like his athleticism but he is very much a work in progress.


Couldn't we say Jong is in a similar situation? Besides, the last two games at Willy have been very wet; not suited.
Yes, very much a work in progress. As is Jong.

[GVGjr]

And wouldn't you not say Jong is in a similar situation? Perhaps I'm biased as I got to see Skinner up close in Ballarat and a few other times. Yes, very much a work in progress. As is Jong.

Jong is in the same position and I see a lot of upside in him. Skinner unfortunately suffers from being on the senior list so our supporters are less patient with him. He's also played some some senior games that also lifts expectations. Jong and Johannisen for that matter don't have the same weight of expectation on them.

[Ghost Dog]

Jong is in the same position and I see a lot of upside in him. Skinner unfortunately suffers from being on the senior list so our supporters are less patient with him. He's also played some some senior games that also lifts expectations. Jong and Johannisen for that matter don't have the same weight of expectation on them.

Ok. Got it. Good points.
But come off it - calls to have him dropped out of the VFL team? I doubt anyone at the Dogs or Williamstown agrees.
Like Cordy, Skinner is going to start taking those grabs, as he builds up arm strength, and consolidate the things he is being told. Does anyone think he's going backwards? Don't think so.
Zeph is a young man who is starting further back than a lot of others in terms of language, diet, access to gyms and sports facilities and other factors. Was working as a meat packer when he was drafted. His background demands patience. The club picked him for his X-factor and now have to be patient. It was always going to be a risk.
Still, I wonder if clubs wished they had taken the risk with Buddy Franklin?

Unfortunately, fans not only want a quick fix, they want risk free draft choices and simplistic or unrealistic arcs of development.

[azabob]

Wonder if clubs wished they had taken the risk with Buddy Franklin?

All of them! But he had to be handled just right, and Hawthorn handled him perfectly. Not sure other clubs could have.

[GVGjr]

Ok. Got it. Good points.
But come off it - calls to have him dropped out of the VFL team? I doubt anyone at the Dogs or Williamstown agrees.


I'm not making that call but come the end of the season I think we need to have a good look if we have the time and the resources to continue to develop him and if he can make that step.


Ok. Got it. Good points.
Like Cordy, Skinner is going to start taking those grabs, as he builds up arm strength, and consolidate the things he is being told. Does anyone think he's going backwards? Don't think so.
Zeph is a young man who is starting further back than a lot of others in terms of language, diet, access to gyms and sports facilities and other factors. Was working as a meat packer when he was drafted. His background demands patience. The club picked him for his X-factor and now have to be patient. It was always going to be a risk.
Still, I wonder if clubs wished they had taken the risk with Buddy Franklin?

Unfortunately, fans not only want a quick fix, they want risk free draft choices and simplistic or unrealistic arcs of development.

If the team was traveling better then people have heaps of patience so given our performance to date it's no surprise that a lot of the fringe players are under more scrutiny than the last few seasons. I acknowledge the points you have raised but we still have to ask the question if he is worth it. It's early days but I think it's a question that needs to be asked at the end of the season.

[LostDoggy]

Ok. Got it. Good points.
But come off it - calls to have him dropped out of the VFL team? I doubt anyone at the Dogs or Williamstown agrees.
Like Cordy, Skinner is going to start taking those grabs, as he builds up arm strength, and consolidate the things he is being told. Does anyone think he's going backwards? Don't think so.
Zeph is a young man who is starting further back than a lot of others in terms of language, diet, access to gyms and sports facilities and other factors. Was working as a meat packer when he was drafted. His background demands patience. The club picked him for his X-factor and now have to be patient. It was always going to be a risk.
Still, I wonder if clubs wished they had taken the risk with Buddy Franklin?

Unfortunately, fans not only want a quick fix, they want risk free draft choices and simplistic or unrealistic arcs of development.

Not sure how you can compare Skinner with Franklin.
One went pick 5 while the other was a speculative pick at best.
Franklin was younger, played 20 games in the first year at afl level. Not sure if skinner has played 20 vfl games yet.

[bornadog]

Still, I wonder if clubs wished they had taken the risk with Buddy Franklin? .

How is a top 5 pick a risk?

The reality is we need to delist some players at the end of the year, and unless Skinner does something dramatic in the second half, he may be gone.

[Ghost Dog]

I'm not making that call but come the end of the season I think we need to have a good look if we have the time and the resources to continue to develop him and if he can make that step.



If the team was traveling better then people have heaps of patience so given our performance to date it's no surprise that a lot of the fringe players are under more scrutiny than the last few seasons. I acknowledge the points you have raised but we still have to ask the question if he is worth it. It's early days but I think it's a question that needs to be asked at the end of the season.

Absolutely. He needs to get on with it.

For all those Skinner deriders; Did they watch him on the weekend? He was at the very least, competitive.
There were a lot worse players on the field.

Distinctive as a player, fans are pretty quick to jump on his back. Perhaps it's the fans fault for being unrealistic with their expectations? May not make it to AFL level? maybe. Too early to tell? definitely.


How is a top 5 pick a risk?

The reality is we need to delist some players at the end of the year, and unless Skinner does something dramatic in the second half, he may be gone.

Regards Buddy, IIRC, questions over his character resulted in him being overlooked by Richmond.

Hawks had pick 2 and 5, Richmond 1 and 4. Bulldogs 3.

[Rocco Jones]

The reality is we need to delist some players at the end of the year, and unless Skinner does something dramatic in the second half, he may be gone.

Agreed.

We have 5 picks in the first 3 rounds. I would have both Austin and Campbell clearly ahead of Skinner for a spot on the senior list. Of course we would ideally keep the pair on the rookie list but ideally we would have everyone on the minimum wage. Instead of thinking of it as the rookie list, we should think of it as the conditions we are offering them. A one-year contract for $60-70k and you're only a chance to pay a game if someone gets injured for 8+ weeks. I think the pair are almost guaranteed to get an offer to join a senior list.

That means 7 picks. When it comes to delistings, I think about whether I would be interested in the play if they were Williamstown listed. If that was the case with Panos and Skinner, would we want the club to draft them? I think they are rookie draft picks at best.

Gilbee, Mulligan, Moles and Hooper are gone. That means one more player. I would let Shaggy decided whether he wants to stay around for a year. Really not sure who would go if Shaggy decides to stay on. Perhaps trade 2 picks for an upgrade.

[LostDoggy]

For all those Skinner deriders; Did they watch him on the weekend? He was at the very least, competitive.
There were a lot worse players on the field.

Yes Redpath was worse. Not many others.
I don't have the stats for the box hill game yet but if it was on average this year, it would be about 8 possessions at vfl level.
http://www.sportingpulse.com/team_info.cgi?action=PSTATS&pID=192531900&client=1-118-10459-204557-16771078
Is that competitive because I'd be surprised if he got many more than 5 yesterday.

Why do need to believe in something that simply isn't there?