Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

[Ghost Dog]

Yes Redpath was worse. Not many others.
I don't have the stats for the box hill game yet but if it was on average this year, it would be about 5 possessions.
http://www.sportingpulse.com/team_info.cgi?action=PSTATS&pID=192531900&client=1-118-10459-204557-16771078
Is that competitive because I'd be surprised if he got many more than 5 yesterday.

Why do need to believe in something that simply isn't there?

Who did or didn't watch the game? Lots you can observe from a game that stats won't tell. Especially when you are trying to develop players.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Absolutely. He needs to get on with it.

For all those Skinner deriders; Did they watch him on the weekend? He was at the very least, competitive.
There were a lot worse players on the field.

Distinctive as a player, fans are pretty quick to jump on his back. Perhaps it's the fans fault for being unrealistic with their expectations? May not make it to AFL level? maybe. Too early to tell? definitely.



He barely touched it!

This year (not counting yesterday as the stats aren't up) he has 4 goals for the year and is averaging 7.8 touches a game.

That is pathetic by any measure.

[Rocco Jones]

He barely touched it!

This year (not counting yesterday as the stats aren't up) he has 4 goals for the year and is averaging 7.8 touches a game.

That is pathetic by any measure.

He is definitely judged differently than others due the perceived massive pay off. Well it worked for Jack and his magic beans so why not us and Zeph?

Funny thing is, he is viewed more kindly than most 2 year players yet he is already 22. I'd try and re-draft him as a rookie.

[AndrewP6]

I did watch the game, and Skinner didn't do much.

[Ghost Dog]

He barely touched it!

This year (not counting yesterday as the stats aren't up) he has 4 goals for the year and is averaging 7.8 touches a game.

That is pathetic by any measure.

Stick at it Zephi. The key forward is one of the toughest gigs in the game. In the same way that a lot of people said Cordy would never make it, you have a window and just stick to your guns keep at it.

Indigenous people have a history of steep hills to climb and lots of us are behind you. Think you have something special to add to the team.

[LostDoggy]

Ok I concede. I went to the game and watched the second half on tv.
The way Skinner fumbled and ran under the marking contest was like no other.
Future star.

[Rocco Jones]

Stick at it Zephi. The key forward is one of the toughest gigs in the game. In the same way that a lot of people said Cordy would never make it, you have a window and just stick to your guns keep at it.

Indigenous people have a history of steep hills to climb and lots of us are behind you. Think you have something special to add to the team.

Does Zeph post here? :)

I think Cordy is different for 3 main reasons:
- always had at least one clear role he he could play at highest level. Skinner doesn't. Not strong enough to be a KP and his fitness means he can't be a small/medium type.
- Ayce is a year younger.
- Cordy 11 > Zeph 12, meaning he is at least 2 years ahead in development.

You're a fan and that's fair enough. I hope you are right. I am not saying just dump him btw, I think he fits the rookie list.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Ok I concede. I went to the game and watched the second half on tv.
The way Skinner fumbled and ran under the marking contest was like no other.
Future star.

I laughed.

GD, you really are blinded by what the club does/throws out in the media.

It is ridiculous that Skinner is on the senior list of an AFL club. We picked him because we thought Collingwood were interested in him. I don't call that astute drafting.

If he's lucky he may be rookied.

[Mantis]

I laughed.

GD, you really are blinded by what the club does/throws out in the media.

It is ridiculous that Skinner is on the senior list of an AFL club. We picked him because we thought Collingwood were interested in him. I don't call that astute drafting.

If he's lucky he may be rookied.

Is this statement based on fact or fiction?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Is this statement based on fact or fiction?

I'm fairly certain it was Zeph, but maybe it was Thorne?

Either way, Collingwood were interested in one of them as a rookie so we used our last pick.

[Rocco Jones]

I'm fairly certain it was Zeph, but maybe it was Thorne?

Either way, Collingwood were interested in one of them as a rookie so we used our last pick.

Thorne/Collingwood rumour rings a bell.

[AndrewP6]

The Pies were interested in Thorne.

[Ghost Dog]

Does Zeph post here? :)

I think Cordy is different for 3 main reasons:
- always had at least one clear role he he could play at highest level. Skinner doesn't. Not strong enough to be a KP and his fitness means he can't be a small/medium type.
- Ayce is a year younger.
- Cordy 11 > Zeph 12, meaning he is at least 2 years ahead in development.

You're a fan and that's fair enough. I hope you are right. I am not saying just dump him btw, I think he fits the rookie list.

Some good points there Rocco
Like all tall, lean types, takes a bit longer to develop. Has a long way to go, but at pick 88, what did we expect? Not his job to live up to the hype that others create. Cordy would have been top 10 if taken in the draft.
I'm a fan, first and foremost, of a fair go and comparing apples with apples.

[AndrewP6]

Some good points there Rocco
Like all tall, lean types, takes a bit longer to develop. Has a long way to go, but at pick 88, what did we expect? Not his job to live up to the hype that others create. Cordy would have been top 10 if taken in the draft.
I'm a fan, first and foremost, of a fair go and comparing apples with apples.

Earlier you compared Zeph and Buddy... as far as apples go, they're not in the same orchard.

[Ghost Dog]

Earlier you compared Zeph and Buddy... as far as apples go, they're not in the same orchard.

Both are a long way from home. Both have the X-factor that you are never quite sure can be realized in the dog eat dog world of AFL. Liam Jarrah is another to compare him to. Just can't say which way it will go.

It was Rocket who helped hype him up as being able to leap tall buildings. He didn't hype himself up.

[AndrewP6]

Both are a long way from home. Both have the X-factor that you are never quite sure can be realized in the dog eat dog world of AFL. Liam Jarrah is another to compare him to. Just can't say which way it will go.

It was Rocket who helped hype him up as being able to leap tall buildings. He didn't hype himself up.

Zeph is from a remote indigenous community, Buddy was born in Perth and later went to Wesley College. Zeph has potential at best, Buddy is freakishly talented.

[Rocco Jones]

Zeph is from a remote indigenous community, Buddy grew up in Perth and went to Wesley College. Zeph has potential at best, Buddy is freakishly talented.

Perth is a pretty remote community.

[AndrewP6]

Perth is a pretty remote community.

Hahaha... It's hardly akin to Noonkanbah Station.

[Ghost Dog]

Concede. Bad example.
Let's hope he doesn't go the way of Liam Jarrah at least.

[Mofra]

Concede. Bad example.
Let's hope he doesn't go the way of Liam Jarrah at least.
On field he's well behind Liam Jurrah

In Cordy's first season as a skinny HF option he would at least get to contests, which is more than Zeph has shown at Willy. I'd love for him to prove me wrong but we need to cull pretty hard in the upcoming draft and I'm not sure "potential X factor" is going to be enough for us. I'll take dependable 1.5 goals per game over a highlights reel that can't run out 120 minutes.

[Ghost Dog]

On field he's well behind Liam Jurrah

In Cordy's first season as a skinny HF option he would at least get to contests, which is more than Zeph has shown at Willy. I'd love for him to prove me wrong but we need to cull pretty hard in the upcoming draft and I'm not sure "potential X factor" is going to be enough for us. I'll take dependable 1.5 goals per game over a highlights reel that can't run out 120 minutes.

No, disagree here. Zeph has been chasing really hard in the forward 50. I just feel he is on the verge of stringing together a few good games, particularly if the conditions are dry.
He has had a game in Darwin ( very greasy ) and two at Willy which have been very wet and muddy. Wait and see. Again, not really worse than Jong.

[bornadog]

No, disagree here. Zeph has been chasing really hard in the forward 50. I just feel he is on the verge of stringing together a few good games, particularly if the conditions are dry.
He has had a game in Darwin ( very greasy ) and two at Willy which have been very wet and muddy. Wait and see. Again, not really worse than Jong.

Not sure why you are sticking up for him when clearly he has shown about 5 minutes of potential in every match he has played. :eek:

The whole WOOF board wants him to do well but it seems you are the only one who is unrealistic about his progress to date.

[Rocco Jones]

No, disagree here. Zeph has been chasing really hard in the forward 50. I just feel he is on the verge of stringing together a few good games, particularly if the conditions are dry.
He has had a game in Darwin ( very greasy ) and two at Willy which have been very wet and muddy. Wait and see. Again, not really worse than Jong.

I don't want to have a running battle but Darwin as in the place he has played the majority of his footy? Darwin the place that typically has greasy conditions? I thought he got a game due to being SUITED to the conditions. IMO he is a psudeo chaser. He chases hard when the ball is within 5-10 metres but he struggles to move any other time. It looks like he chases when I watch him on TV but I get a very different picture when I am actually at a game.

Jong is more than 3 years younger than Skinner and has definitely shown a lot more to warrant a game for Willy already.

For my money for Skinner to have any chance of a decent AFL career, he will have to go from having as bad as a tank as you'll see to having a very good one. I don't see it happening.

[Ghost Dog]

Not sure why you are sticking up for him when clearly he has shown about 5 minutes of potential in every match he has played. :eek:

The whole WOOF board wants him to do well but it seems you are the only one who is unrealistic about his progress to date.

Because, It's a bit more complicated than graduating from a Grammar school here in Melbourne where you go to the gym three times a week, have a VCE or TAFE education, have English as your first language, go to AFL games on the weekend from a young age, get to take part in clinics and have access to training opportunities. I'll leave it there and watch his progress with interest. He has a small window and has to take his chance now or rightly so, can't see how he can justify his spot. The risk is worth it and think people are underestimating what he can bring to the club, if mentored in the right way.

You obviously prefer that everyone agree with each other BAD.

[Rocco Jones]

Because, It's a bit more complicated than graduating from a Grammar school here in Melbourne where you go to the gym three times a week, have a VCE or TAFE education, have English as your first language, go to AFL games on the weekend from a young age, get to take part in clinics and have access to training opportunities. I'll leave it there and watch his progress with interest. He has a small window and has to take his chance now or rightly so, can't see how he can justify his spot.

Whilst I disagree with your overall assessment of Zeph, I do agree with you about the influence and effect of different environments and their conditions.

[azabob]

Because, It's a bit more complicated than graduating from a Grammar school here in Melbourne where you go to the gym three times a week, have a VCE or TAFE education, have English as your first language, go to AFL games on the weekend from a young age, get to take part in clinics and have access to training opportunities. I'll leave it there and watch his progress with interest. He has a small window and has to take his chance now or rightly so, can't see how he can justify his spot. The risk is worth it and think people are underestimating what he can bring to the club, if mentored in the right way.

You obviously prefer that everyone agree with each other BAD.

Well summarised GD. We sometimes forget where people come from and how far back they actually start.
Unfortunately as you have said, AFL is a cutthroat business and he needs to show dramatic improvement to stay on the list.
Hopefully he can because he certainly would add something different to our forward line mix we currently a screaming out for.

[bornadog]

You obviously prefer that everyone agree with each other BAD.

No I don't prefer everyone agrees, but in this case your assessment of him is way out.

Ok, you tell me if he is better than:

Hooper, Mulligan, Moles, Gilbee, who we all agree will most likely get the chop. Is he better than Campbell or Tom Hill?

Tell us who should be delisted ahead of Skinner?

When he shows something then we can all say he is doing well but at the moment, I think he should be playing for Willi reserves.

[Rocco Jones]

Hooper, Mulligan, Moles, Gilbee, who we all agree will most likely get the chop. Is he better than Campbell or Tom Hill?

Tell us who should be delisted ahead of Skinner?


I guess that's the question that needs to be answered if you rate Zeph and Panos for that manner. You have 4 who are gone. Even with one of Campbell or Hill not on the senior list, we would to delist two more.

On a sidenote, I see some discussion about multi-year contracts. On the outside looking in, more years is obviously a bigger commitment but the money obviously needs to be factored in. Gia's contract seems to be a good example of this. imagine these two scenarios for an ageing player.

Contract A- 700k for 3 years.
Contract B- 600Kfor 2 years.

From our perspective, we might get nervous about it being for a longer period but we are limited by what we have access to.

[Ghost Dog]

No I don't prefer everyone agrees, but in this case your assessment of him is way out.

Ok, you tell me if he is better than:

Hooper, Mulligan, Moles, Gilbee, who we all agree will most likely get the chop. Is he better than Campbell or Tom Hill?

Tell us who should be delisted ahead of Skinner?

When he shows something then we can all say he is doing well but at the moment, I think he should be playing for Willi reserves.

No. You used the whole ' Well the whole woof board disagrees with you' play.
My assessment is way out according to others. But I have the right to disagree and I do.

It's not halfway into the season. And at this stage, one can only speculate. Some players must be delisted. Some players need to get on with it and prove their worth. Skinner is one of the latter, as is Campbell ( who I like ) and Hill ( who I know little about.)

Young key forwards always take longer to develop, especially if they grow up in outback Australia. Fact.

[Desipura]

No. You used the whole ' Well the whole woof board disagrees with you' play.
My assessment is way out according to others. But I have the right to disagree and I do.

It's not halfway into the season. And at this stage, one can only speculate. Some players must be delisted. Some players need to get on with it and prove their worth. Skinner is one of the latter, as is Campbell ( who I like ) and Hill ( who I know little about.)

Young key forwards always take longer to develop, especially if they grow up in outback Australia. Fact.
He is not a kpp, more like a 3rd tall at best.

[w3design]

Perth is a pretty remote community.

How right you are RJ.
My family live there, and I keep warning them not to sneeze, otherwise they might blow themselves off the edge of the world.:)

[Ghost Dog]

He is not a kpp, more like a 3rd tall at best.

Ok but he is a forward.
Vezpremi is a goal sneak forward. But now where is he?.... you just never know Desi.

[LostDoggy]

No I don't prefer everyone agrees, but in this case your assessment of him is way out.

Ok, you tell me if he is better than:

Hooper, Mulligan, Moles, Gilbee, who we all agree will most likely get the chop. Is he better than Campbell or Tom Hill?

Tell us who should be delisted ahead of Skinner?

When he shows something then we can all say he is doing well but at the moment, I think he should be playing for Willi reserves.

I've seen enough flashes from Skinner to want to get one more preseason in him. I'd definately be sitting him down at the end of the year and having a serious talk but the question for me if whether his tank can develop quickly enough rather than talent. If he can pop in and out of a game like a Betts or a Rioli he'd be of value to most teams but he's much more massively exposed playing for us because the rest of our list is either straight out of nappies, ready to retire or only just afl standard (apologies to Griffin and Murphy).

Yes to Hooper, Mulligan, Moles, Gilbee and Shaggy will probably go as well.

Rather than delist kids, I'd be happy to cut deep at the trade table (for picks or upgrades) with any of the following: Sherman, Higgins, Howard, Grant and Minson. All of them have currency and are reasonable players that might suit a void on someone elses list. None of them are going to make or break our own run for the flag in a few years.

That would free up space for the draft rather than dumping Skinner this year.

On a side note for those wanting to draft a tall forward: We've now got 8 tall forward/rucks (190+) on our list excluding Minno, as well as Redpath and Campbell so 10 total. Grant has 44 games, Jones 33 and Roughy 26 so none of the top 3 have 50 games. The remaining 7 have a combined senior game time of 11 games of which Cordy is 8 and Skinner has 3. I think we've got to give all these kids some time to develop and prove their spot and that includes Skinner who's only had a year and a half in the system. It took Howard three years to show us anything and he was round 1. Poor decision by our recruiters but still round 1 vs pick 88 here??

[Dancin' Douggy]

No. You used the whole ' Well the whole woof board disagrees with you' play.
My assessment is way out according to others. But I have the right to disagree and I do.

It's not halfway into the season. And at this stage, one can only speculate. Some players must be delisted. Some players need to get on with it and prove their worth. Skinner is one of the latter, as is Campbell ( who I like ) and Hill ( who I know little about.)

Young key forwards always take longer to develop, especially if they grow up in outback Australia. Fact.

watching this argument/discussion unfold I have to say I'm in your corner Ghost Dog so I'm not part of 'the whole woof board' that disagrees with you. I would love to see the club back Skinner for at least another year for all the reasons you've given.

I would chop Hooper Moles Gilbee Mulligan ahead of him. Definitely.

[LostDoggy]

I would chop Hooper Moles Gilbee Mulligan ahead of him. Definitely.

That's not what the Skinner argument is about.
Delisting 4 blokes when we may promote 2 or 3 rookies isn't enough.
We have 2 extra draft picks as well.

Need to cut a lot deeper than 4.

[LostDoggy]

I also find it funny GD that you complain about not being allowed to have a different opinion when you bagged me for saying Skinner is in danger of being delisted.

[bornadog]

I would chop Hooper Moles Gilbee Mulligan ahead of him. Definitely.

We all agree but who else should be delisted? Remember we are talking about the situation right now. A player may have a breakout second half and things may change.

[Ghost Dog]

I also find it funny GD that you complain about not being allowed to have a different opinion when you bagged me for saying Skinner is in danger of being delisted.

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire

Skinner is definitely in danger of being delisted. I agree.
I don't agree that he should be delisted at this point in time. It's way too early.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire

Skinner is definitely in danger of being delisted. I agree.
I don't agree that he should be delisted at this point in time. It's way too early.

Voltaire didn't actually say that, it was his biographer Evelyn Hall...

[bornadog]

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire

Skinner is definitely in danger of being delisted. I agree.
I don't agree that he should be delisted at this point in time. It's way too early.

what do you mean this point in time?

[BulldogBelle]

He's saying Skinner could turn it around soon and have a strong latter half of the season. I tend to agree that we shouldn't mark anyone for death this early in the season, but sadly by weight of numbers, we are going to lose some likeable faces.

[Ghost Dog]

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ha0ax1EbhKo/T9b-NNKjRVI/AAAAAAAABzA/MuI70mfHOHM/s764/Fullscreen%2520capture%25206122012%252062943%2520PM.jpg?gl=U S

Can anyone see any information here that is not correct?

Secondly, are there any father / son pics I've forgotten about for the next draft?

Boyd, Shaggy and Dale Morris , Cross, and Gia will be on the veteran's list next year, correct?

The 5 I nominate to delist at this point in time are: Gilbee, Brodie Moles, Pat Vezpremi, Hooper and Mulligan. Hargrave may retire owing to his ankle or Gia may retire. What is Tom William's contract status? Not sure his body is up to AFL and has missed so much footy. Hope he manages to come back, but have my doubts. "The most operated player in the comp" says Matty Boyd.

Rookie promotion: Austin / Campbell but watching Alex Greenwood closely.

[bornadog]

He's saying Skinner could turn it around soon and have a strong latter half of the season. I tend to agree that we shouldn't mark anyone for death this early in the season, but sadly by weight of numbers, we are going to lose some likeable faces.

I hope Skinner does turn it around, but where it stands right now, I think he should be playing Willi reserves.

[Dancin' Douggy]

That's not what the Skinner argument is about.
Delisting 4 blokes when we may promote 2 or 3 rookies isn't enough.
We have 2 extra draft picks as well.

Need to cut a lot deeper than 4.

I know.

[Remi Moses]

Just don't think there's enough urgency in Zeph's game to often.
Yeah occasionally he's flat out, but to often he's third up trying for a big mark.
Big second half for Zeph is required.
That's what was good about the Jones game , he attacked every contest urgently

[Bulldog4life]

He's saying Skinner could turn it around soon and have a strong latter half of the season. I tend to agree that we shouldn't mark anyone for death this early in the season, but sadly by weight of numbers, we are going to lose some likeable faces.

I agree with this. Any player can turn it around in the second half of the year. This thread will make more sense much later in the season.

[LostDoggy]

I know.

Tell us something we don't know then instead of pointing out the obvious.

[Rocco Jones]

Ghost Dog seems to have his bone and won't go close to letting it go. Zeph ahead of Tom Williams (he is contracted)? I don't care if Tom's arm falls off (a distinct possibility), he would still be ahead of Zeph.

We have to delist/retire 7 if we are going to have our 5 early picks + upgrade Campbell and Austin.

Just about impossible IMO to retain Campell and Austin on rookie list. Forget about it as being on the 'rookie list', it's like us offering them a 1 year contract for 60-70k with the condition that they are only even a chance to play if a senior player goes down for 8+ weeks.

Instead of saying he should go, he should stay.. we need to crunch the numbers.

I have no interest whatsoever in Moles, Mulligan, Gilbee and Hooper. They are gone.

Panos and Skinner I would delist and then rookie.

That leaves one more. Shaggy's choice to retire or go one more year. Don't want to delist anyone else. It's Vez's spot to lose.

[LostDoggy]

What's the story with vets/rookies allowed? Numbers?

[Rocco Jones]

What's the story with vets/rookies allowed? Numbers?

From what I understand it....

- 38 senior list

- 2 on vets list (can have more with salary deducted but any more than 2 and they count as part of your senior list of 38)

- 6 rookies but they can take vets list spots if free i.e 1 vet list = 7 rookies max. Also mean you can start season with 1 or 2 if you only have 0 or 1 vets.

[Ghost Dog]

Ghost Dog seems to have his bone and won't go close to letting it go. Zeph ahead of Tom Williams (he is contracted)? I don't care if Tom's arm falls off (a distinct possibility), he would still be ahead of Zeph.

We have to delist/retire 7 if we are going to have our 5 early picks + upgrade Campbell and Austin.

Just about impossible IMO to retain Campell and Austin on rookie list. Forget about it as being on the 'rookie list', it's like us offering them a 1 year contract for 60-70k with the condition that they are only even a chance to play if a senior player goes down for 8+ weeks.

Instead of saying he should go, he should stay.. we need to crunch the numbers.

I have no interest whatsoever in Moles, Mulligan, Gilbee and Hooper. They are gone.

Panos and Skinner I would delist and then rookie.

That leaves one more. Shaggy's choice to retire or go one more year. Don't want to delist anyone else. It's Vez's spot to lose.
Or both arms! Nah. Come on Tommy!!! Ya Ol' Queensland Bullock.
He's got a new girl so that might help the healing process.
Have to admit, when he does come back your heart is going to be in your mouth every time he goes for a sliding mark.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Tell us something we don't know then instead of pointing out the obvious.

Chops, this has been a long discussion. I said I agreed with Ghost Dog for all the reasons he had already pointed out. I find you to be a pretty aggressive poster at times and I often just dip out because I simply can't be bothered.

[bulldogsman]

I have no interest whatsoever in Moles, Mulligan, Gilbee and Hooper. They are gone.

Panos and Skinner I would delist and then rookie.

That leaves one more. Shaggy's choice to retire or go one more year. Don't want to delist anyone else. It's Vez's spot to lose.

Agree with this and I'd delist Markovic then rookie him as I've already mentioned.

[azabob]

I have no interest whatsoever in Moles, Mulligan, Gilbee and Hooper. They are gone.

Panos and Skinner I would delist and then rookie.

That leaves one more. Shaggy's choice to retire or go one more year. Don't want to delist anyone else. It's Vez's spot to lose.

RJ, we may give up players / picks to get involved in the 17 year old mini draft.

I like what Vez offers. Where is DJ in all of this? Personally I think DJ would be stiff to be axed but I think Vez has more ability and has a role to play in our team, where as DJ is surplus.

[Ghost Dog]

Agree with this and I'd delist Markovic then rookie him as I've already mentioned.

And watch him get poached? Bmac is a fan of Marko's so not sure if that is likely.

[bulldogsman]

And watch him get poached by another club?

I've made my point pretty clear on that...

[Ghost Dog]

I've made my point pretty clear on that...

Trying to think of other blokes besides Lake who can handle the larger forwards like Dawes, Cloke and so forth. Markovic fits into an age slot we are a bit short on and when we do play teams with a couple of large forwards, will need him.

[bornadog]

The 5 I nominate to delist at this point in time are: Gilbee, Brodie Moles, Pat Vezpremi, Hooper and Mulligan.

So you are not happy with Vez?

I haven't been a fan of Vez, but he has done more than Skinner to date and if I had my choice I would rather keep Vez.

[Rocco Jones]

RJ, we may give up players / picks to get involved in the 17 year old mini draft.

I like what Vez offers. Where is DJ in all of this? Personally I think DJ would be stiff to be axed but I think Vez has more ability and has a role to play in our team, where as DJ is surplus.

DJ is contracted for next year.

I don't really want to delist Vez, just that I would rather an earlyish 3rd round pick. Can't think of a 7th to delist who isn't contracted. Either way as long as Vez doesn't go down hill, I'd keep him and try to find another solution i.e. trade 2 picks for upgraded pick.

[bulldogsman]

Trying to think of other blokes besides Lake who can handle the larger forwards like Dawes, Cloke and so forth. Markovic fits into an age slot we are a bit short on and when we do play teams with a couple of large forwards, will need him.

Tom Williams - This guy can
Roberts & Talia - Young, but could play next year
Morris & Austin - More of a 3rd tall but they have shown they can play on big talls.

Ok, I really can't make this anymore clearer. I don't rate Markovic and I think he's a wasted spot on the main list. As I mentioned early in thread, this draft has quite a number of good potential key position talls. I'd look at filling up Markovic's spot with one. If Markovic is not available as backup on the rookie list, I have identified one to be at least just as good to perhaps serve as backup. I understand that you disagree and that's fine. I may be wrong, but I have thought about this and made up my mind. I think this year, some very tough decisions have be made and I think we can get by with those listed talls.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Tough decisions need to be made.

Hooper, Mulligan, Gilbee and Moles are givens. However, we still need at least 2-3 more.

Skinner is undoubtedly in that 'next' category, as is Panos. If we need to chop another, I agree with bulldogsman: it should be Markovic.

I would look to rookie either Panos or Markovic.

[Bulldog Joe]

It is an interesting discussion and there is absolutely no doubt that the club will cut strongly in some way.

We have identified that at least 5 spots are required just for the draft picks we have already committed too. Any upgraded rookie is additional. Through the thread Rocco (I think) suggested 7, but we have struggled to get to 5. Even then any one we identify can still change that with a big second half. Conversely someone could drop away that we currently think is safe.

Personally, I now think we will cut about 8 including retirees. These may include Hargrave and even Morris, who just may not get back from injury.

Hopefully the next 12 weeks will identify who we really want for the future.

[ledge]

Tough decisions need to be made.

Hooper, Mulligan, Gilbee and Moles are givens. However, we still need at least 2-3 more.

Skinner is undoubtedly in that 'next' category, as is Panos. If we need to chop another, I agree with bulldogsman: it should be Markovic.

I would look to rookie either Panos or Markovic.

Why would you drop off Markovic when he has started to play well, mature and will take over from Lake,I dont understand how people think Markovic will go.
Personally to me he is safe as houses with Williams being injury prone and Morris struggling, if another backman goes down eg Wood again you dont want Markovic around at all.
Murphy isnt young either.

[azabob]

DJ is contracted for next year.

I don't really want to delist Vez, just that I would rather an earlyish 3rd round pick. Can't think of a 7th to delist who isn't contracted. Either way as long as Vez doesn't go down hill, I'd keep him and try to find another solution i.e. trade 2 picks for upgraded pick.

Rocco, I'm fairly sure DJ said he only got a two year deal, meaning he isn't contracted.

[Bulldog Joe]

Why would you drop off Markovic when he has started to play well, mature and will take over from Lake,I dont understand how people think Markovic will go.
Personally to me he is safe as houses with Williams being injury prone and Morris struggling, if another backman goes down eg Wood again you dont want Markovic around at all.
Murphy isnt young either.

Murphy could also be a potential retiree.

He has struggled with his knees for the past 5 years. At best a year to year proposition.

[bornadog]

Rocco, I'm fairly sure DJ said he only got a two year deal, meaning he isn't contracted.

I think DJ may be a prime candidate to be delisted or even traded to release us from any financial obligation (if there is one).
.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Markovic finished in the top 10 of our B & F last year, yet some are calling for him to be culled ahead of Skinner. Simply incredible.

[bulldogsman]

Markovic finished in the top 10 of our B & F last year, yet some are calling for him to be culled ahead of Skinner. Simply incredible.

Who?

I don't think anyone has suggested that including myself.

[Desipura]

Murphy could also be a potential retiree.

He has struggled with his knees for the past 5 years. At best a year to year proposition.

Murphy has more footy in him than Gia.

[Bulldog Joe]

Murphy has more footy in him than Gia.

Maybe he has but maybe not.

Gia exists on smarts while Murphy has run. Run disappears quicker than smarts. Murphy also has a well known knee issue. We suspect that Gia has some body concerns but those aren't publically known.

Realistically they both could be done at years end but also could just as easily provide good value for 2 or 3 years.

[bornadog]

Given that everyone can't agree on the players that need to be de-listed, retired or traded, the club may have to make a choice .

Here is a List of the players who are 30 or will be 30 next year, total of 8.

We know that two can be on the Vets list. I would suggest Lake and Boyd would take those spots. That leaves us with 6 players that I suggest are 2 too many.

Who would you pick and make the hard choice to say goodbye to?


Games Age Date of Birth Height Weight
Gilbee 202 30yr 11mth 8-Jul-81 180cm 82kg
Hargrave 200 30yr 10mth 26-Jul-81 190cm 85kg
Lake 186 30yr 3mth 27-Feb-82 195cm 104kg
Gia 222 30yr 3mth 11-Mar-82 182cm 82kg
Murphy 219 30yr 9-Jun-82 186cm 82kg
Boyd 195 29yr 9mth 27-Aug-82 184cm 89kg
Morris 151 29yr 5mth 29-Dec-82 190cm 93kg
Cross 190 29yr 2mth 30-Mar-83 187cm 86kg


There is a question mark over Hargrave, Gia, Morris and Murphy due to their bodies standing up to the rigours of AFL. Gilbee is most likely gone. Cross is still one of the fittest in the club, but do we cull him due to his skill deficiencies in today's footy?

I have suggested 6 players to stay who are over 30, but should that be less? Personally maybe 5 is the right balance.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Who?

I don't think anyone has suggested that including myself.

You did say that you would delist him and try to rookie him

[LostDoggy]

I'm for turning over some of our older players and retaining any younger players who we think might have plenty of upside.

Some older players must be close to retiring, voluntarily or by push. Shaggy has to be getting close to making that decision for himself. Injury plagued seasons are not a lot of fun for older players, and often signal the end is nigh. I'd reckon Williams could also be one serious injury away from pulling the pin.

Murphy seems to be doing a lot of media lately. He hasn't been his usual effective self. Is he losing a yard? Are the media commitments affecting him?

The 2nd half of the season should reveal whether Cooney should go on. He may find it is all too hard to keep getting up if he isn't having the impact he would like.

I'm for keeping Skinner for one more year. We need x factor or project players that we can work on developing. It may be a case of being patient with him.

[immortalmike]

After reading this thread I'm happy about 2 things...

1. I am not managing our list, firstly I would have no idea how to do it, then it would be a headache just to do on paper but could you imagine going up to a guy like Cross or Gia and asking them to retire or telling them that they're gone. It would be heartbreaking.

2. That this board isn't in charge of list management. Some of the suggestions I've read here sound crazy....

[Desipura]

Maybe he has but maybe not.

Gia exists on smarts while Murphy has run. Run disappears quicker than smarts. Murphy also has a well known knee issue. We suspect that Gia has some body concerns but those aren't publically known.

Realistically they both could be done at years end but also could just as easily provide good value for 2 or 3 years.
I disagree, Murphy is just as smart if not smarter. He still has the ability to run and carry as he has shown, his kicking has been a bit hit and miss this year though.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Can anyone see any information here that is not correct?

Secondly, are there any father / son pics I've forgotten about for the next draft? None

Boyd, Shaggy and Dale Morris , Cross, and Gia will be on the veteran's list next year, correct? Dale Morris is not eligible as he hasn't been on the list for 10 years. Lake would also be eligible. Technically we can put all 5 on the vets list but it means we will only have 3 rookies next year rather than 6. There will be a slight difference wrt salary cap but not much.

The 5 I nominate to delist at this point in time are: Gilbee, Brodie Moles, Pat Vezpremi, Hooper and Mulligan. Hargrave may retire owing to his ankle or Gia may retire. What is Tom William's contract status? Not sure his body is up to AFL and has missed so much footy. Hope he manages to come back, but have my doubts. "The most operated player in the comp" says Matty Boyd. Gia is contracted, No chance Williams will finish up, his latest injury was a shoulder and no-one retires because of a shoulder injury, not even Sam Reid

Rookie promotion: Austin / Campbell but watching Alex Greenwood closely.

In your list (assuming you don't promote Greenwood) we would have 6 draft picks but only 3 rookies. You could only retain 3 of Jong, Johannesen, Greenwood and Redpath and we would have no places left to draft any rookies at all.

[bulldogsman]

You did say that you would delist him and try to rookie him

But I did not suggest we cull Markovic over Skinner. Skinner is miles away from playing AFL. Markovic is a harsh call I know, but I think we can do better then him.

I agreed with Rocco that we could perhaps delist Skinner and Panos then rookie. Even then, I'm not sure I would rookie them at all. The more that I think about it, Hargrave/Gia should also be retired making possibly 8 vacant spots. I really think we need to cut deep into the list especially when we have 2, possibly 3 rookie upgrades.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Why would you drop off Markovic when he has started to play well, mature and will take over from Lake,I dont understand how people think Markovic will go.
Personally to me he is safe as houses with Williams being injury prone and Morris struggling, if another backman goes down eg Wood again you dont want Markovic around at all.
Murphy isnt young either.

Started to play well? He maybe had 1 game against Adelaide that was OK, but I would not call it ground breaking.

I think the coaching staff will keep Markovic because they seem to like him, but personally I wouldn't. He's no better than the average state league defender, of which I am sure we could find a replacement. Otherwise, I see Markovic as the perfect rookie option. I don't see the point of keeping a guy on the list just because he's big -- we did this for years with Walsh, Wight, Wiggins, Skipper etc.


Markovic finished in the top 10 of our B & F last year, yet some are calling for him to be culled ahead of Skinner. Simply incredible.


You did say that you would delist him and try to rookie him

Nobody called for Markovic to be 'culled ahead of Skinner'. A few of us said both should be cut, with Markovic being an option to rookie.

[Cyberdoggie]

I guess the other option that opens spots up is trading players for picks or players.

Another unknown factor to consider in your mathematic calculations really.

[Ghost Dog]

In your list (assuming you don't promote Greenwood) we would have 6 draft picks but only 3 rookies. You could only retain 3 of Jong, Johannesen, Greenwood and Redpath and we would have no places left to draft any rookies at all.

There are so many ins and outs until the end of the season, I expect at least one hole to open up owing to injury. See how it goes. Redpath I love, but not sold on as offering us anything we don't have.

[w3design]

Just to throw a cat among the pigeons. Could Sydney do their magic of turning marginal players into ones that finally achieve their potential with Grant?
A trade for draft picks [ probably including pick exchanges].
He just does not seem to be reaching anything like the potential everyone seems to think he has with us. So, a win/win option?

[bulldogsman]

Grant looked like he was actually on the improve before he went MIA, I would not be trading him. Plus we need all the speed we can get.

I'd consider putting up Roughead for trade to see what's on offer. I wouldn't want to lose him unless it's for something decent though, we don't have heaps of ruckman. Maybe for a good mature aged player we need (I dunno Boak???) or maybe Hogan in the mini draft. We would need to throw in a pick as well.

[azabob]

Grant looked like he was actually on the improve before he went MIA, I would not be trading him. Plus we need all the speed we can get.

I'd consider putting up Roughead for trade to see what's on offer. I wouldn't want to lose him unless it's for something decent though, we don't have heaps of ruckman. Maybe for a good mature aged player we need (I dunno Boak???) or maybe Hogan in the mini draft. We would need to throw in a pick as well.

I agree you need to give up something to get something, but from my understanding we can't guarantee getting the first pick in the mini draft, Hogan does appeal though.

[Bulldog Joe]

There are so many ins and outs until the end of the season, I expect at least one hole to open up owing to injury. See how it goes. Redpath I love, but not sold on as offering us anything we don't have.

I would suggest that Redpath really does offer something we don't have.

Looks like he could be a big power unit and his kicking is long and accurate. Potentially a Tom Hawkins type BUT he needs to show more of an ability to get the ball.
It seems his VFL season has produced only one half of quality. If he could get it together he would certainly bring some structure to the forward line.

[Maddog37]

Has Redpath taken a mark above his head yet?

[LostDoggy]

Has Redpath taken a mark above his head yet?

You seen how big he is? A kick that goes over Dahlhaus's head would be one that hits Jack in the chest! :)

[Bulldog Joe]

Has Redpath taken a mark above his head yet?

If you watched the Bendigo game (ABC TV game) he did take some nice grabs in the second half and converted well.

[Bulldog4life]

If you watched the Bendigo game (ABC TV game) he did take some nice grabs in the second half and converted well.

I think that after two knee operations and a lack of playing footy in the last 2 years Redpath is the type of player you have to be very patient with as he is coming from a fair way back.
Hopefully he can be a good player for us.

[LostDoggy]

If you watched the Bendigo game (ABC TV game) he did take some nice grabs in the second half and converted well.

I watched that game. Good second half but had done very little prior that game and did bugger all last week.
Would need a few more Bendigo type games before I would even re-rookie him, let alone list him.

[F'scary]

With what you have written? No way. It's way too ruthless and would rip the heart out of the club and leave us with a vastly poorer list. Basically it would set us back 5 years.

We are struggling with getting supporters to the games now and to get them to sign up as members but your cut or dump approach would simply be the death knell for the club.

Would you be happy with that?

There is no way Morris or Murphy should be delisted or traded.

yeah, you're right on all counts. I was really upset and depressed after the Sydney loss. Said to myself I'm never following footy again. But here I am checking the team for the Port match.

[azabob]

Where are we at with signing Will Minson? The longer it takes the more concerned I become.

[Rocco Jones]

yeah, you're right on all counts. I was really upset and depressed after the Sydney loss. Said to myself I'm never following footy again. But here I am checking the team for the Port match.

I think a few of us could relate mate!

[F'scary]

I think a few of us could relate mate!

You are too kind, Rocco. My words were sh*t

[Rocco Jones]

You are too kind, Rocco. My words were sh*t

Yeah they were, I guess some of the stuff I said during that game were pretty awful. As long as doesn't happen all the time and you can reflect on it, I think it's understandable. My bigguest issue is when posters regularly use forums to just vent. It's selfish IMO.

I, like you and a lot of dogs fans, found the Swans game just awful. Thank god that the things I said about B-Mac and co stayed in my lounge room!

[Rocco Jones]

If DJ is out of contract I think he would be the 7th to go (excluding Shaggy). I thought he was offered 3 years but could be wrong.

[Greystache]

If DJ is out of contract I think he would be the 7th to go (excluding Shaggy). I thought he was offered 3 years but could be wrong.

We were told that somewhere originally, but in a recent interview DJ spoke about how he's out of contract at the end of this season.

[Bulldog4life]

If DJ is out of contract I think he would be the 7th to go (excluding Shaggy). I thought he was offered 3 years but could be wrong.

Out of contract according to a fairly recent newspaper article on him.

[bornadog]

If DJ is out of contract I think he would be the 7th to go (excluding Shaggy). I thought he was offered 3 years but could be wrong.

Agree, hasn't set the world on fire.

[GVGjr]

If DJ is out of contract I think he would be the 7th to go (excluding Shaggy). I thought he was offered 3 years but could be wrong.

I'd be reluctant to cut him adrift. In a side that lacks run I'd prefer to wait until the end of the season to make a call on him.

[LostDoggy]

I'd be reluctant to cut him adrift. In a side that lacks run I'd prefer to wait until the end of the season to make a call on him.

How many games has he played this year? Haven't really seen much of him, but I haven't really been paying that much attention.

[Ghost Dog]

I would suggest that Redpath really does offer something we don't have.

Looks like he could be a big power unit and his kicking is long and accurate. Potentially a Tom Hawkins type BUT he needs to show more of an ability to get the ball.
It seems his VFL season has produced only one half of quality. If he could get it together he would certainly bring some structure to the forward line.

Kicking. Agreed. Something we most definitely need. I remember someone (GVG? ) last year bemoaning the sloppy way our team approached kicking at practice drills during the week. It's really frustrating to watch a game and have players win the ball, just to cough it back up with a mashed kick, without pressure around or miss a fairly straight set shot.
We scored 9 or 10 points in the end of the 3rd and 4th quarter V Sydney. Quite a few were set shots from inside or on the 50. ( Vezpa had a few from straight on, Roughy too ) People are asking ' Where are our goals going to come from?" but if we just had that last bit of polish, a lot less pressure in so many ways.

Contested ball emphasis is something BMAC has brought to the club. Time we started bringing in better kickers. Panos or Campbell I hope make the grade.

In all, not sold on Redpath quite yet but do hope he manages to break into the senior side once this season so we can get a better idea of how far on or off he is AFL level.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Kicking. Agreed. Something we most definitely need. I remember someone (GVG? ) last year bemoaning the sloppy way our team approached kicking at practice drills during the week. It's really frustrating to watch a game and have players win the ball, just to cough it back up with a mashed kick, without pressure around or miss a fairly straight set shot.
We scored 9 or 10 points in the end of the 3rd and 4th quarter V Sydney. Quite a few were set shots from inside or on the 50. ( Vezpa had a few from straight on, Roughy too ) People are asking ' Where are our goals going to come from?" but if we just had that last bit of polish, a lot less pressure in so many ways.

Contested ball emphasis is something BMAC has brought to the club. Time we started bringing in better kickers. Panos or Campbell I hope make the grade.

In all, not sold on Redpath quite yet but do hope he manages to break into the senior side once this season so we can get a better idea of how far on or off he is AFL level.

The problem for Redpath and Panos is you have to get it before you can kick it.

[Ghost Dog]

The problem for Redpath and Panos is you have to get it before you can kick it.

well said Sockeye. Good point
But that being said, we got plenty of it in our 50 V swans and piled on ten points.
Those straight on misses really hurt.

Where can I find stats for set shots per AFL team?

[Rocco Jones]

Can Vez and/or Sherman work under B-Mac plans? If not, we might as well save time and delist/trade theM. I am pretty sure Vez's contract is up at year's end, believe Sherman has one more year.

I rate Sherman a fair bit and see some value in Vez. I think attitude wise they are pretty much set in their ways. There might be a bit of a shift but I can't see them ever being really hard/what B-Mac seems to rate.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Can Vez and/or Sherman work under B-Mac plans? If not, we might as well save time and delist/trade theM. I am pretty sure Vez's contract is up at year's end, believe Sherman has one more year.

I rate Sherman a fair bit and see some value in Vez. I think attitude wise they are pretty much set in their ways. There might be a bit of a shift but I can't see them ever being really hard/what B-Mac seems to rate.

I think it's ridiculous they aren't playing every week, but you're right. If we aren't going to use them, there's no point keeping them.

Starting to seem likely at least one will be gone.

[Sedat]

Can Vez and/or Sherman work under B-Mac plans? If not, we might as well save time and delist/trade theM. I am pretty sure Vez's contract is up at year's end, believe Sherman has one more year.

I rate Sherman a fair bit and see some value in Vez. I think attitude wise they are pretty much set in their ways. There might be a bit of a shift but I can't see them ever being really hard/what B-Mac seems to rate.Some fair points there but the reality is that both Sherman and Vesz have ingrained flaws in their game (Sherman - decision making, Vesz - aerobic capacity and lack of defensive intensity one-on-one) that for all intents and purposes won't ever be fully remedied. That's certainly not to say that a fair portion of our current starting 22 don't also have well established flaws in their game either.

[Mantis]

Some fair points there but the reality is that both Sherman and Vesz have ingrained flaws in their game (Sherman - decision making, Vesz - aerobic capacity and lack of defensive intensity one-on-one) that for all intents and purposes won't ever be fully remedied. That's certainly not to say that a fair portion of our current starting 22 don't also have well established flaws in their game either.

But both Sherman (pace & finishing) and Vez (kicking) have attributes our team requires.

I would be disappointed if B-Mac doesn't give them another extended run to see if they can produce the type of footy he requires.

[GVGjr]

But both Sherman (pace & finishing) and Vez (kicking) have attributes our team requires.

I would be disappointed if B-Mac doesn't give them another extended run to see if they can produce the type of footy he requires.

Same here. Sherman frustrates me because he doesn't seem to be 100% focused but he is the type of player we need to add and should be given a decent run at it. Veszpremi just can't get himself to required fitness standards but as a smaller rebounding defender he also needs to be played.

[Ghost Dog]

Some fair points there but the reality is that both Sherman and Vesz have ingrained flaws in their game (Sherman - decision making, Vesz - aerobic capacity and lack of defensive intensity one-on-one) that for all intents and purposes won't ever be fully remedied. That's certainly not to say that a fair portion of our current starting 22 don't also have well established flaws in their game either.

Ever? Never ever? old dogs can learn new tricks.

Everitt was cooked here at the Dogs. Derided, many were happy to see him go. I wasn't one of them.
Here is a guy who had flaws in his game and has worked through them. Vezpa and Sherman certainly can, no doubt.
The key is having the right players to go alongside those who are inconsistent to push them and challenge them to keep it up.

[Remi Moses]

Ever? Never ever? old dogs can learn new tricks.

Everitt was cooked here at the Dogs. Derided, many were happy to see him go. I wasn't one of them.
Here is a guy who had flaws in his game and has worked through them. Vezpa and Sherman certainly can, no doubt.
The key is having the right players to go alongside those who are inconsistent to push them and challenge them to keep it up.

Andrejs isn't intense enough or urgent enough to make it!
Let's be honest if Sydney ( the master recyclers) can't get anything out of you nobody will.
He'll be in and out all season, he's the consummate tease of a footballer

[Sedat]

Ever? Never ever? old dogs can learn new tricks.

Everitt was cooked here at the Dogs. Derided, many were happy to see him go. I wasn't one of them.
Here is a guy who had flaws in his game and has worked through them. Vezpa and Sherman certainly can, no doubt.
The key is having the right players to go alongside those who are inconsistent to push them and challenge them to keep it up.
Everitt is currently playing for his AFL life and is only getting a semi-regular game because of Spangher's long-term injuries this season. Swans have a major issue with Everitt's intensity (sound familiar?) and would have Spangher in the team in a heartbeat as the 3rd tall forward as soon as gets some match conditioning in the two's. Everitt has been as disappointing at Sydney as he was with us, and is one of the few recycled players not to be a success story for them. He still has a little time on his side but the clock is ticking.

I would dearly love for Sherman and Vesz to overcome their deficiencies and become very good quality and consistent AFL players, but one of them has been in the system for 8 years and the other for 5, and neither have showed improvement in their areas of deficiency. Having said that, they absolutely need to be given a decent run at senior level so that we can make a definitive call one way or the other.

If there was a level between VFL and AFL, we would be premiers every year - so many players on our list appear to be too good for VFL and not quite good enough for consistent AFL output.

[Sockeye Salmon]

If there was a level between VFL and AFL, we would be premiers every year - so many players on our list appear to be too good for VFL and not quite good enough for consistent AFL output.

Perhaps we over-rate some of our players based on one or two reasonable performances at VFL level.

[LostDoggy]

As much as I'm bitter about Ward; would we have an appetite to trade a player as required on our list as Wood or Roughead to GWS if we could get Hogan in the mini-draft? Assume it would need to be at least that caliber + a draft pick to get the job done. They need ruck talent and we have a plethora of tall potential. Flow on would be they would avoid Grundy and take a quality mid assuming they get pick 2 in the real draft this year.

[Remi Moses]

See Goldsack and Reid are out of contract!
Both would be ideal, Goldsack been great in that lead up forward roll.
The only blight is Reid's soft tissue problems. One apple has to fall out of the tree

[westdog54]

As much as I'm bitter about Ward; would we have an appetite to trade a player as required on our list as Wood or Roughead to GWS if we could get Hogan in the mini-draft? Assume it would need to be at least that caliber + a draft pick to get the job done. They need ruck talent and we have a plethora of tall potential. Flow on would be they would avoid Grundy and take a quality mid assuming they get pick 2 in the real draft this year.

I'd think we'd be looking at a high end draft pick as a trade rather than a player.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I would seriously target Goldsack. Surely Collingwood cannot keep them all.

[Ghost Dog]

Everitt is currently playing for his AFL life and is only getting a semi-regular game because of Spangher's long-term injuries this season. Swans have a major issue with Everitt's intensity (sound familiar?) and would have Spangher in the team in a heartbeat as the 3rd tall forward as soon as gets some match conditioning in the two's. Everitt has been as disappointing at Sydney as he was with us, and is one of the few recycled players not to be a success story for them. He still has a little time on his side but the clock is ticking.

I would dearly love for Sherman and Vesz to overcome their deficiencies and become very good quality and consistent AFL players, but one of them has been in the system for 8 years and the other for 5, and neither have showed improvement in their areas of deficiency. Having said that, they absolutely need to be given a decent run at senior level so that we can make a definitive call one way or the other.

If there was a level between VFL and AFL, we would be premiers every year - so many players on our list appear to be too good for VFL and not quite good enough for consistent AFL output.

Sedat, I lift my hat to the above post. Enjoyed reading it and the bold part made me laugh at the weary, bitter humor of a dogged dogs supporter.

[chef]

I would seriously target Goldsack. Surely Collingwood cannot keep them all.

Me too. The aren't going to lose Reid, Beams or Cloke.

[LostDoggy]

Is N.Ablett worth drafting as he knows how to play in the forward line?

[G-Mo77]

Is N.Ablett worth drafting as he knows how to play in the forward line?

Fev would be a better option so would Simon Beasley. I'm not sure if you're being serious with that comment.

[BulldogBelle]

Is N.Ablett worth drafting as he knows how to play in the forward line?

1. Absolutely not.

2. We have a plethora of far, far better younger lead up forwards, we need fast and skillful crumbers.

edit: I'm pretty sure it was a joke post.

[Eastdog]

1. Absolutely not.

2. We have a plethora of far, far better younger lead up forwards, we need fast and skillful crumbers.

edit: I'm pretty sure it was a joke post.

Crumbers is definitely what we are lacking.

[LostDoggy]

Fev would be a better option so would Simon Beasley. I'm not sure if you're being serious with that comment.

Premiership player who lost his way wanting to put his feet up on the Gold Coast.
Son and brother to champions.Now wants to have another shot at it .
Could be the answer to the chaos that rules in our forward line at the moment.Im sure we would not lose anything replacing Mulligan for him as a late pick .
Would you have drafted Podsiadly?
Just trying to look outside the square and take the blinkers off as key forwards dont fall out of trees

[Ghost Dog]

I would like a few more . Tallish guys who you can shunt around the ground in various positions.
In terms of key forwards, why can't we get someone else to do the ruck and have Minson forward as a general rule?
Or Lake? because he is looking that disinterested in the backline it's not funny.
Or just plonk Redpath ( they won't move him ) in the forward line and have a few smaller guys get the spills?

[chef]

I would like a few more like Fletcher Roberts. Tallish guys who you can shunt around the ground in various positions.
In terms of key forwards, why can't we get someone else to do the ruck and have Minson forward as a general rule?
Or Lake? because he is looking that disinterested in the backline it's not funny.
Or just plonk Redpath ( they won't move him ) in the forward line and have a few smaller guys get the spills?

Been there, done that. He's not a KPF.

You can't invent forwards. It's just something that is natural. I would rather us rotate Jones, Cordy, Hill, Panos, Roberts, Skinner and Grant for the rest of the season to develop what we have and to work out if they are all worth keeping for the future.

[Sedat]

Been there, done that. He's not a KPF.You're probably right, but he was our designated KPF when we had our best shot at a flag (2008-9). I'm in the minority in that I thought his 2008 season as a key forward pinch-hitter in particular was underrated. The reality was that once we got Hall in we started to fall away from the pack (I also believe that had we got Hally in a year earlier we'd have won the flag in 2009, so I'm certainly not discounting his abilities as a KPF). You don't need a superstar to play a servicable role up forward, but a) we don't have the smalls to take advantage of the ground ball spillage, and b) we don't have any defensive presence in our forward 50 of any note. Give me a servicable tall and strong defensive pressure in the forward 50 any day of the week than a champion tall forward and a trampoline forward line.

[AndrewP6]

I would like a few more . Tallish guys who you can shunt around the ground in various positions.
In terms of key forwards, why can't we get someone else to do the ruck and have Minson forward as a general rule?
Or Lake? because he is looking thatdisinterested in the backline it's not funny.
Or just plonk Redpath ( they won't move him ) in the forward line and have a few smaller guys get the spills?

Is he? Apart from last weekend, he's looked alright this year, IMO.

[LostDoggy]

With the 3-1sub rule and possibly going 2-2 we can't keep 3 20yo+ rucks whose speciality is rucking. I don't see the point in upgrading Campbell if we are going to keep Minson and Roughead.
We really should be playing just 1 and getting Jones to pinch hit.

[Maddog37]

I would be interested in Ablett if Bmac thinks it is worth pursuing. He would know if it is worthwhile surely.

[Ghost Dog]

Is he? Apart from last weekend, he's looked alright this year, IMO.

Yes fair call there Andrew. I think the disappointment of last week has me under a red and black cloud. You are right. He has looked good against other opponents. It's just a bit disappointing to not have him perform last week when the chips were down, drop the chin and allow them so much space.

[Rocco Jones]

I read Sedat's post on another thread about the big group of players we have who can perhaps be okish at times at AFL level but overall will never really amount to much at all.

Why should we hold onto these guys? I don't see how they will help develop our kids.

Vez, Sherman (not sure of contract status), Markovic and DJ are just taking up space IMO.

Hooper, Mulligan and Moles are gone. I was actually reasonably impressed by Gilbee but not sure he is the type who will help develop kids.

Then there are the young talls in Skinner, Panos and Hill. I know Skinner's coming from way back but he isn't 19, he is 23. I think absolutely best case, he will end up offering us Setanta type value. Really believe Panos is a throwback and Hill can't get near it at Willi.

I know that's 11 players but we would also updgrade 2 rookies and I rate Johannisen more than any of the 11 long term. I would rather take a punt on a draftee than resign myself to keeping a player we know won't make it just because he has played a decent game or two. We are the AFL's version of hoarders.

[bornadog]

I read Sedat's post on another thread about the big group of players we have who can perhaps be okish at times at AFL level but overall will never really amount to much at all.

Why should we hold onto these guys? I don't see how they will help develop our kids.

Vez, Sherman (not sure of contract status), Markovic and DJ are just taking up space IMO.

Hooper, Mulligan and Moles are gone. I was actually reasonably impressed by Gilbee but not sure he is the type who will help develop kids.

Then there are the young talls in Skinner, Panos and Hill. I know Skinner's coming from way back but he isn't 19, he is 23. I think absolutely best case, he will end up offering us Setanta type value. Really believe Panos is a throwback and Hill can't get near it at Willi.

I know that's 11 players but we would also updgrade 2 rookies and I rate Johannisen more than any of the 11 long term. I would rather take a punt on a draftee than resign myself to keeping a player we know won't make it just because he has played a decent game or two. We are the AFL's version of hoarders.

I have previously been against delisting/trading so many players, but with an ageing list of good players and so many list cloggers, this could be the time to do it. A nice clean sweep and we will benefit in two years time when the current crop have 50 plus games under their belt and with younger players coming through.

Previously we could replace the Grants, Wests, Smiths, Darcy etc with the 1999 draftees, but now how do we replace the 1999 draftees with the next crop?

[bulldogsman]

I read Sedat's post on another thread about the big group of players we have who can perhaps be okish at times at AFL level but overall will never really amount to much at all.

Why should we hold onto these guys? I don't see how they will help develop our kids.

Vez, Sherman (not sure of contract status), Markovic and DJ are just taking up space IMO.

Hooper, Mulligan and Moles are gone. I was actually reasonably impressed by Gilbee but not sure he is the type who will help develop kids.

Then there are the young talls in Skinner, Panos and Hill. I know Skinner's coming from way back but he isn't 19, he is 23. I think absolutely best case, he will end up offering us Setanta type value. Really believe Panos is a throwback and Hill can't get near it at Willi.

I know that's 11 players but we would also updgrade 2 rookies and I rate Johannisen more than any of the 11 long term. I would rather take a punt on a draftee than resign myself to keeping a player we know won't make it just because he has played a decent game or two. We are the AFL's version of hoarders.

It's hard to argue with most of that. I think a couple of players are needed for depth purposes however and perhaps one or two we could rookie.

[LostDoggy]

My god, I just glad the club has appointed professional people to mangage the list because some of the suggestions on this thread are simply ridiculous.

[GVGjr]

My god, I just glad the club has appointed professional people to mangage the list because some of the suggestions on this thread are simply ridiculous.

What would be your recommendations?

[Desipura]

My god, I just glad the club has appointed professional people to mangage the list because some of the suggestions on this thread are simply ridiculous.

Gee, you are touchy today arent you?

[Mantis]

I read Sedat's post on another thread about the big group of players we have who can perhaps be okish at times at AFL level but overall will never really amount to much at all.

Why should we hold onto these guys? I don't see how they will help develop our kids.

Vez, Sherman (not sure of contract status), Markovic and DJ are just taking up space IMO.

Hooper, Mulligan and Moles are gone. I was actually reasonably impressed by Gilbee but not sure he is the type who will help develop kids.

Then there are the young talls in Skinner, Panos and Hill. I know Skinner's coming from way back but he isn't 19, he is 23. I think absolutely best case, he will end up offering us Setanta type value. Really believe Panos is a throwback and Hill can't get near it at Willi.

I know that's 11 players but we would also updgrade 2 rookies and I rate Johannisen more than any of the 11 long term. I would rather take a punt on a draftee than resign myself to keeping a player we know won't make it just because he has played a decent game or two. We are the AFL's version of hoarders.

That all sounds all good and we do need to trim the fat, but how much faith do you have that we can make sound choices at the draft/ trade table to ensure we head in the right direction?

Going on past performances I'm not that confident.

[BulldogBelle]

Rocco, I think your suggestions to cut that far into the list are a tad over zealous. Let me explain how I see it.

By the end of 2014, we will no longer have the services of Gia, Cross, Hargreave, Morris, Gilbee, Murphy, Lake, Boyd, Cooney.... That's 9 players all of 200 gamer/club champion type stock. Being able to replace these guys 'like for like' will be an enormous challenge in and of itself.

To avoid having a first 22 running out every week in 2014-15 of sub 23/24 yr olds with less than 50 games experience you simply must hold onto players like Sherman, Vez, DJ, Marko, Austin and a case could even be made for Moles (undecided on him still).

Your suggestion to carve out so-called 'list cloggers' in addition to the inevitable ageing club champion brigade would see us in 2014/15 doing our best impersonation of the Gold Coast Suns circa 2011/12.

[bornadog]

Your suggestion to carve out so-called 'list cloggers' in addition to the inevitable ageing club champion brigade would see us in 2014/15 doing our best impersonation of the Gold Coast Suns circa 2011/12.

I don't agree with that. Here is a list of current players and those that are potentially not going to be around in 2013. I have included their age as at 31 December of each year.

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/mmsalih/Untitled-12.jpg

We have several bands of players, shaded accordingly. You can see there are 8 players who will be 30 plus in 2013, this is far too many for any club.

Of those I have highlighted in yellow, tell me which ones you believe we should keep?

There are doubts on Gia, Cooney and will depend on their bodies, Panos is still young and there is an argument to keep him. Skinner is also on the doubtful list but I haven't highlighted him.

In 2014, we will still have at least 10 players over 26 years old, but we will be better balanced if we can reduce a number of the so called list cloggers and replace them with some young drfatees and maybe a gun 25 year old (if we can get one). There is also doubts in 2014 for those not highlighted in yellow and over 30.

Note:, I haven't made comments on rookies as they are the ones that will potentially take some spots.

[LostDoggy]

I read Sedat's post on another thread about the big group of players we have who can perhaps be okish at times at AFL level but overall will never really amount to much at all.

Why should we hold onto these guys? I don't see how they will help develop our kids.

Vez, Sherman (not sure of contract status), Markovic and DJ are just taking up space IMO.

Hooper, Mulligan and Moles are gone. I was actually reasonably impressed by Gilbee but not sure he is the type who will help develop kids.

Then there are the young talls in Skinner, Panos and Hill. I know Skinner's coming from way back but he isn't 19, he is 23. I think absolutely best case, he will end up offering us Setanta type value. Really believe Panos is a throwback and Hill can't get near it at Willi.

I know that's 11 players but we would also updgrade 2 rookies and I rate Johannisen more than any of the 11 long term. I would rather take a punt on a draftee than resign myself to keeping a player we know won't make it just because he has played a decent game or two. We are the AFL's version of hoarders.

nice summary - if it does pan out that Vez, Sherman, Markovic and DJ are taking up space then this a massive indictment on our current recruiters and Fantasia. We actively targetted these guys to fill a void (mid 20's bracket) and to draw a blank on all is unacceptable. Having said that I still have mild hopes for a couple of that lot, but time will tell.

In any case, do we need to have another review of football operations (with role of senior coach being excluded from the terms of reference) to either recommend changes or confirm we are travelling down the right path? As Melbourne woes are teaching us all, this is the most important phase of list development (bottom or nearing bottom). Are the guys in there capable enough and perhaps more importantly have sufficient resources for us to compete?

[azabob]

nice summary - if it does pan out that Vez, Sherman, Markovic and DJ are taking up space then this a massive indictment on our current recruiters and Fantasia. We actively targetted these guys to fill a void (mid 20's bracket) and to draw a blank on all is unacceptable. Having said that I still have mild hopes for a couple of that lot, but time will tell.



I really think our recruiting team is coping a lot of unfair criticism. Out of those players you listed he only pulled the trigger on Markovic (who finished top 10 in our B&F last year) and is rated by the match committee (rightly or wrongly)

Dalrymple has only had three drafts. Two of those drafts were heavily compromised due to the expansion teams, however we were fortunate with father son picks in one of those compromised drafts, and if you believe what you read and hear around the traps he was heavily influenced into taking Clay Smith.

[stefoid]

I am assuming we plan to elevate Cambell, Johanisson and Austin to the main list, and draft 5 kids, so we need to cut 8 players. We also want to keep the rookie list open for fresh blood, so we keep those 3 vacated spots clear for the rookie draft.

Mulligan, Hooper, DJ and Moles have been given ample opportunity - there isnt any point to them clogging up positions at Williamstown any more.

Panos seems like he has been around for ever, but is only 21. Yet we also have Redpath who plays an identical role and is younger, bigger, quicker and has the advantage of only being on the rookie list. So I have to cut Panos.

Sherman... keep for next year. This year we are playing some kind of turtle-like defense at all costs game plan. I would like to see what Sherman can do next year when we (hopefully) open the game up a bit which is Shermans forte, if he has one.

Skinner - heart says yes, head says no. Split the difference, cut him, and re-rookie only if no better rookies are available at our last rookie pick.

Hargrave: I like his experience and versatility for depth in case we make the finals next year. Keep.

Gilbee - geez. This is a professional club, right? We have to cut him. One injury and his season is over anyway, and lists spots are valuable.

Cooney - talk about shooting Bambi, but is Coons physically able to even play AFL any more? Is he contracted for 2013? Is that contract backended? I would consider shaking his hand, paying him out, and telling him to enjoy his future media career while he can still walk.

rookies: retain Greenwood, Redpath and Jong

[LostDoggy]

Panos seems like he has been around for ever, but is only 21. Yet we also have Redpath who plays an identical role and is younger, bigger, quicker and has the advantage of only being on the rookie list. So I have to cut Panos.


Redpath is a just over 1 month older than Panos.
Quicker? Not so sure about that.
Identical role? Never seen Redpath play anywhere other than chf whereas Panos is been everywhere.
2cm taller yes.
Redpath has performed no where near the level Panos has in VFL level.

If it was one versus the other then keep Panos but not sure either will be there next year.

[stefoid]

Redpath is a just over 1 month older than Panos.
Quicker? Not so sure about that.
Identical role? Never seen Redpath play anywhere other than chf whereas Panos is been everywhere.
2cm taller yes.
Redpath has performed no where near the level Panos has in VFL level.

If it was one versus the other then keep Panos but not sure either will be there next year.

So you reckon Panos has hope of becoming something other than a leading forward?

We need more spots on the list so who else goes if Panos stays?

could drop Redpath and rookie panos suppose.

[LostDoggy]

I am assuming we plan to elevate Cambell, Johanisson and Austin to the main list, and draft 5 kids, so we need to cut 8 players. We also want to keep the rookie list open for fresh blood, so we keep those 3 vacated spots clear for the rookie draft.

Mulligan, Hooper, DJ and Moles have been given ample opportunity - there isnt any point to them clogging up positions at Williamstown any more.

Panos seems like he has been around for ever, but is only 21. Yet we also have Redpath who plays an identical role and is younger, bigger, quicker and has the advantage of only being on the rookie list. So I have to cut Panos.

Sherman... keep for next year. This year we are playing some kind of turtle-like defense at all costs game plan. I would like to see what Sherman can do next year when we (hopefully) open the game up a bit which is Shermans forte, if he has one.

Skinner - heart says yes, head says no. Split the difference, cut him, and re-rookie only if no better rookies are available at our last rookie pick.

Hargrave: I like his experience and versatility for depth in case we make the finals next year. Keep.

Gilbee - geez. This is a professional club, right? We have to cut him. One injury and his season is over anyway, and lists spots are valuable.

Cooney - talk about shooting Bambi, but is Coons physically able to even play AFL any more? Is he contracted for 2013? Is that contract backended? I would consider shaking his hand, paying him out, and telling him to enjoy his future media career while he can still walk.

rookies: retain Greenwood, Redpath and Jong

Maybe Cooney is thinking if his knee is shot anyway he may as well hang around and get
all the backended coin he has coming to him as he will be a long time retired and probably carry this injury for life.
Couldnt blame him really.

Agree with most of the rest , not sure on Panos.

You didn't mention Ves. I would put him in the same category as Sherman.

We need a couple of these mid age bracket guys to come good.

[stefoid]

If we can afford to pay Coons out is there any reason having him on the list? - cant train, and because he cant train he cant play to his ability. Not convinced that 'having Cooney at 80% is better than player X at 100%'

Should have traded him to Hawthorn for two high draftpicks before they realized his knee was totally shot :rolleyes:

[GVGjr]

If we can afford to pay Coons out is there any reason having him on the list? - cant train, and because he cant train he cant play to his ability. Not convinced that 'having Cooney at 80% is better than player X at 100%'

Should have traded him to Hawthorn for two high draftpicks before they realized his knee was totally shot :rolleyes:

I don't see the logic in this. What would be the impact on the playing personnel to cut a one club player and Brownlow medalist like that?

We apparently want loyalty from players but equally we want to be able to treat them poorly when it suits us.

[Hot_Doggies]

Crumbers is definitely what we are lacking.

Todd Banfield?

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I don't see the logic in this. What would be the impact on the playing personnel to cut a one club player and Brownlow medalist like that?

We apparently want loyalty from players but equally we want to be able to treat them poorly when it suits us.

I agree with this GVGjr, however it is going to be a talking point for the rest of his career, at this point with the side playing poorly he is in our best 22 (just) next year with some improvement in the younger guys and the fact that we will more than likely blood a few more kids, do we really have room for him in our side?

Surly we could send him off for a special op overseas and assess hem for next year, I don't see much benefit in playing him now the way he appears to be.

Is he the type of person who would coach?

I now he's not your normal type but he may just have something to add to BMacs team. I would happerly flick Shagga Grant and give the gig to Coons

[The Pie Man]

I agree with this GVGjr, however it is going to be a talking point for the rest of his career, at this point with the side playing poorly he is in our best 22 (just) next year with some improvement in the younger guys and the fact that we will more than likely blood a few more kids, do we really have room for him in our side?

Surly we could send him off for a special op overseas and assess hem for next year, I don't see much benefit in playing him now the way he appears to be.

Is he the type of person who would coach?

I now he's not your normal type but he may just have something to add to BMacs team. I would happerly flick Shagga Grant and give the gig to Coons

Cooney doesn't strike me as an assistant coach in waiting - without knowing anyone involved, I'd bet Daniel Cross goes down that path post playing career...based on how he presented at a post match presser earlier this year.

Too early for Higgins, but either media or a footy role would no doubt beckon post playing also.

[jeemak]

I reckon Cooney could do anything he put his mind to when it comes to football (non-playing unfortunately).

He's played the dumb knockabout role throughout his teens and early twenties, though all that did was disguise an underlying determination to succeed.

[Eastdog]

Cooney has been a very good player for our club with of course winning the 2008 Brownlow medal. It is unfortunate that his knees are shot and that he is not as damaging as he used to be. Could there as I mentioned in the Cooney-gone thread another role he could play in the team the maybe would be better suited for him at this stage of his career and with the concerns with his knees.

[LostDoggy]

Realistically, does anyone think we will be any good next year or in the next few years if we don't take drastic action?

Our list has been in decline for some time, as many have identified hard decisions needed to be made a lot earlier. However, on this thread (which has trading in the title), I don’t see a discussion on trading which is a hard decision. If this draft is as good as many say, we really need to take advantage by trading players out who aren’t going to be around when we are good, but still keeping enough players to be relatively competitive (noting we aren’t that competitive with these players, so what do we have to lose?).

Some of these players are favourite sons and great servants, but realistically we are giving them a chance of a premiership, while we get a chance for a quality rebuild.

Needless to say, we need to ensure our recruiting is up to speed if we are going to gamble on the draft.

So in my view, its not enough to just delist players, we seriously need to look at trading some of our very good players while they have some currency and before they can take advantage of the free agency and possibly walk. We need to recognise the market is changing to an EPL soccer style arrangement where you trade people before their contract expires.

As much as possible trade players we have an excess of, so ball winning poor ball users, and ruckmen. We need to back Cross, Wallis, Libba, Addison, Smith, Campbell, Cordy and Minson to fill the breach. Runners like Griffin, Sherman and Cooney (if fit) should be retained.

So:

Trade:

Brian Lake - has another year on contract but is still a quality player and could be the difference between a premiership or not for a top club. If Hawthorn were to miss out this year they would have to be interested in a gorilla, especially if we topped up his salary in return for say their first round pick in the high teens.

Trading Lake is not as big a gamble as it looks, as one wonders if he won't renew his contract anyway based on his media performances...don't give a club a chance to screw us, get on the front foot and take advantage.

Shaun Higgins – His development has stalled. Not sure that he would have a lot of currency. May be worth a pick in the thirties or forties

Jordan Roughead, with Campbell and Cordy and Minson, we have enough rucks, trade him for a pick in 20’s-30’s

And now for the most controversial one…

Matthew Boyd – He has been a great player, and still is, although I would love to see his statistics for possessions to advantage (not just efficient ie a handball to a player 1 metre away under pressure, but to advantage, noting his efficiency is at the bottom end for mids anyway). The way we have recruited says we have more than enough players to play his type of role (not at his level for winning ball admittedly, but possibly better users). See what we could get for him, again a first round pick would be the price. And agains clubs like Hawthorn, Carlton, Collingwood would have to look at Boyd - again we could top up his salary to inflate the trade price.

So:

Trade Lake, Boyd, Higgins and Roughead

Picks: 5 (1st Rd),6 (Ward comp), 16 (Lake), 17(Boyd), 24 (2nd Rd), 25(Roughead), 40(Higgins), 42 (3rd Rd)



Delist/Trade: Gilbee, Moles, Mulligan, Hooper, Djerkurra, Boyd, Roughead, Lake, Higgins


Upgrade: Campbell

[AndrewP6]

Realistically, does anyone think we will be any good next year or in the next few years if we don't take drastic action?

Our list has been in decline for some time, as many have identified hard decisions needed to be made a lot earlier. However, on this thread (which has trading in the title), I don’t see a discussion on trading which is a hard decision. If this draft is as good as many say, we really need to take advantage by trading players out who aren’t going to be around when we are good, but still keeping enough players to be relatively competitive (noting we aren’t that competitive with these players, so what do we have to lose?).

Some of these players are favourite sons and great servants, but realistically we are giving them a chance of a premiership, while we get a chance for a quality rebuild.

Needless to say, we need to ensure our recruiting is up to speed if we are going to gamble on the draft.

So in my view, its not enough to just delist players, we seriously need to look at trading some of our very good players while they have some currency and before they can take advantage of the free agency and possibly walk. We need to recognise the market is changing to an EPL soccer style arrangement where you trade people before their contract expires.

As much as possible trade players we have an excess of, so ball winning poor ball users, and ruckmen. We need to back Cross, Wallis, Libba, Addison, Smith, Campbell, Cordy and Minson to fill the breach. Runners like Griffin, Sherman and Cooney (if fit) should be retained.

So:

Trade:

Brian Lake - has another year on contract but is still a quality player and could be the difference between a premiership or not for a top club. If Hawthorn were to miss out this year they would have to be interested in a gorilla, especially if we topped up his salary in return for say their first round pick in the high teens.

Trading Lake is not as big a gamble as it looks, as one wonders if he won't renew his contract anyway based on his media performances...don't give a club a chance to screw us, get on the front foot and take advantage.

Shaun Higgins – His development has stalled. Not sure that he would have a lot of currency. May be worth a pick in the thirties or forties

Jordan Roughead, with Campbell and Cordy and Minson, we have enough rucks, trade him for a pick in 20’s-30’s

And now for the most controversial one…

Matthew Boyd – He has been a great player, and still is, although I would love to see his statistics for possessions to advantage (not just efficient ie a handball to a player 1 metre away under pressure, but to advantage, noting his efficiency is at the bottom end for mids anyway). The way we have recruited says we have more than enough players to play his type of role (not at his level for winning ball admittedly, but possibly better users). See what we could get for him, again a first round pick would be the price. And agains clubs like Hawthorn, Carlton, Collingwood would have to look at Boyd - again we could top up his salary to inflate the trade price.

So:

Trade Lake, Boyd, Higgins and Roughead

Picks: 5 (1st Rd),6 (Ward comp), 16 (Lake), 17(Boyd), 24 (2nd Rd), 25(Roughead), 40(Higgins), 42 (3rd Rd)



Delist/Trade: Gilbee, Moles, Mulligan, Hooper, Djerkurra, Boyd, Roughead, Lake, Higgins


Upgrade: Campbell

While we're at it, change the colours, move headquarters and give the club a new name! Seriously, trade out an AA full back and a prolific ball winner/ club b&f/ club captain/ one of the hardest working blokes on the place? A surefire way to rip the guts right out of the club- EJ and Charlie would be spinning in their graves. I can sort of see the sense in Roughy, although I'm not sure he has much currency on the market. Likewise Higgins. As for Addison being one to fill the breach, I'm speechless.

[Eastdog]

While we're at it, change the colours, move headquarters and give the club a new name! Seriously, trade out an AA full back and a prolific ball winner/ club b&f/ club captain/ one of the hardest working blokes on the place? A surefire way to rup the guts right out of the club- EJ and Charlie would be spinning. I can sort of see the sense in Roughy, although I'm not sure he has much currency on the market. Likewise Higgins. As for Addison being one to fill the breach, I'm speechless.

With Cooney Andrew could he play in another role for the team see he had these injury concerns? While we certainly need to cull our list we have to make sure that we don't cull too much which I think is very important moving forward.

[F'scary]

Realistically, does anyone think we will be any good next year or in the next few years if we don't take drastic action?

Our list has been in decline for some time, as many have identified hard decisions needed to be made a lot earlier. However, on this thread (which has trading in the title), I don’t see a discussion on trading which is a hard decision. If this draft is as good as many say, we really need to take advantage by trading players out who aren’t going to be around when we are good, but still keeping enough players to be relatively competitive (noting we aren’t that competitive with these players, so what do we have to lose?).

Some of these players are favourite sons and great servants, but realistically we are giving them a chance of a premiership, while we get a chance for a quality rebuild.

Needless to say, we need to ensure our recruiting is up to speed if we are going to gamble on the draft.

So in my view, its not enough to just delist players, we seriously need to look at trading some of our very good players while they have some currency and before they can take advantage of the free agency and possibly walk. We need to recognise the market is changing to an EPL soccer style arrangement where you trade people before their contract expires.

As much as possible trade players we have an excess of, so ball winning poor ball users, and ruckmen. We need to back Cross, Wallis, Libba, Addison, Smith, Campbell, Cordy and Minson to fill the breach. Runners like Griffin, Sherman and Cooney (if fit) should be retained.

So:

Trade:

Brian Lake - has another year on contract but is still a quality player and could be the difference between a premiership or not for a top club. If Hawthorn were to miss out this year they would have to be interested in a gorilla, especially if we topped up his salary in return for say their first round pick in the high teens.

Trading Lake is not as big a gamble as it looks, as one wonders if he won't renew his contract anyway based on his media performances...don't give a club a chance to screw us, get on the front foot and take advantage.

Shaun Higgins – His development has stalled. Not sure that he would have a lot of currency. May be worth a pick in the thirties or forties

Jordan Roughead, with Campbell and Cordy and Minson, we have enough rucks, trade him for a pick in 20’s-30’s

And now for the most controversial one…

Matthew Boyd – He has been a great player, and still is, although I would love to see his statistics for possessions to advantage (not just efficient ie a handball to a player 1 metre away under pressure, but to advantage, noting his efficiency is at the bottom end for mids anyway). The way we have recruited says we have more than enough players to play his type of role (not at his level for winning ball admittedly, but possibly better users). See what we could get for him, again a first round pick would be the price. And agains clubs like Hawthorn, Carlton, Collingwood would have to look at Boyd - again we could top up his salary to inflate the trade price.

So:

Trade Lake, Boyd, Higgins and Roughead

Picks: 5 (1st Rd),6 (Ward comp), 16 (Lake), 17(Boyd), 24 (2nd Rd), 25(Roughead), 40(Higgins), 42 (3rd Rd)



Delist/Trade: Gilbee, Moles, Mulligan, Hooper, Djerkurra, Boyd, Roughead, Lake, Higgins


Upgrade: Campbell

I like your thinking. But I would retain Boyd (just can't do that to the captain) & Djerkurra (one more season). Trade / delist Hargrave & Cooney. Trade Grant. Delist Gia.

[Rocco Jones]

Sorry to be harsh but some fans just have no idea. Trade Boyd? Do we get that these guys are not robots? We expect them to stay loyal, yet suggest trading our captain?

I find it amusing that the fans who demand we trade Cross, Boyd etc are the some fans who bring out the pitchforks when a player leaves for more cash.

[Remi Moses]

Just wasted a minute of my life reading that.
When we adopt those ideas and lose by 20 goals every week, they'll then want the coach sacked and the doors padlocked. Not a hope in Haitis of that happening!

[bornadog]

Melbourne says hello

[Eastdog]

I don't think we should be trading our captain. He can provide the experience to the younger brigade coming up as someone they can look up to.

[Ghost Dog]

Trade Boyd? Dreaming! Fans would riot. I'd be one of them. See Avatar above.
Brian is one ouf our best players. Watch the game last week. Why on earth would you want to trade him?

[AndrewP6]

With Cooney Andrew could he play in another role for the team see he had these injury concerns? While we certainly need to cull our list we have to make sure that we don't cull too much which I think is very important moving forward.

Yes he can.

[Eastdog]

Trade Boyd? what would that do to morale at the club?

It would definitely affect it. You a good leader like Boyd in the team.

[Eastdog]

Yes he can.

Where do you think he would play?

[AndrewP6]

Where do you think he would play?

Forward.

[Eastdog]

Forward.

A position maybe where he doesn't over do it in terms of running. Also just reached 1000 posts.

[SlimPickens]

A position maybe where he doesn't over do it in terms of running. Also just reached 1000 posts.

If that's the case surely he is a liability. I don't mind Cooney as a forward but he does need to work on his defensive side of his game.

[Eastdog]

If that's the case surely he is a liability. I don't mind Cooney as a forward but he does need to work on his defensive side if his game.

What do you ultimately think they will do with him in his current state.

[Maddog37]

Trade your Captain............that is quite bizarre.

[stefoid]

I don't see the logic in this. What would be the impact on the playing personnel to cut a one club player and Brownlow medalist like that?

We apparently want loyalty from players but equally we want to be able to treat them poorly when it suits us.

The logic would be if hes not good enough to get a game in the firsts because of his knee, why not pay out his contract and let him get on with his life?

[AndrewP6]

The logic would be if hes not good enough to get a game in the firsts because of his knee, why not pay out his contract and let him get on with his life?

Because it would send a terrible message to the playing group i.e. if you need our support, too bad, we're trying to build a team, you're on your own. Because it would tell those players coming towards free agency (as well as younger players early in their career) to chase the biggest dollars they can, and that showing loyalty is a waste of time. That's why not...

[GVGjr]

The logic would be if hes not good enough to get a game in the firsts because of his knee, why not pay out his contract and let him get on with his life?


So your logic is actually an assumption and the question of the impact to the playing group of cutting a contracted player is simply ignored?

How many players would be driven into looking out for themselves if they thought this was the attitude of the club towards any player battling to overcome an injury.

On a side note, do you expect players to be loyal to the club?

[Remi Moses]

The logic would be if hes not good enough to get a game in the firsts because of his knee, why not pay out his contract and let him get on with his life?

I'm sure it will be a life decision as well as a football one.
Not fair on all parties to see such a great player struggle.

[Eastdog]

We need a key forward and a key ruck. KPP are the hardest to find. Macintosh who's at the North Melbourne could be a possibility for our ruck. Travis Cloke could fit in at us but I doubt he will go as he wants a lot of money. We need a Jay Schultz type of player.

[bulldogsman]

Eastdog, is Roughead, Campbell, Minson, Cordy not enough rucks?

[Eastdog]

Eastdog, is Roughead, Campbell, Minson, Cordy not enough rucks?

I know he has actually been good this year but do you really rate Minson? Someone like Macintosh could be good for us as he is struggling to get a spot in the North team and is quite affective. Campbell looks good and has a future but he is still young and needs time to develop.

[bulldogsman]

I know he has actually been good this year but do you really rate Minson? Someone like Macintosh could be good for us as he is struggling to get a spot in the North team and is quite affective. Campbell looks good and has a future but he is still young and needs time to develop.

Yeah I do. I think he would be around the top 5 at least top 10 ruckman in the league this year. Do you really think McIntosh will be big upgrade on Minson? He's no Cox.

There's plenty of holes in our list at the moment, but I can't see the ruck area being one of them.

[Eastdog]

Yeah I do. I think he would be around the top 5 at least top 10 ruckman in the league this year. Do you really think McIntosh will be big upgrade on Minson? He's no Cox.

There's plenty of holes in our list at the moment, but I can't see the ruck area being one of them.

How about a key forward. That is a big hole we need to fill. 5 midfielders can equal 1 key forward so it's very difficult.

[GVGjr]

I know he has actually been good this year but do you really rate Minson? Someone like Macintosh could be good for us as he is struggling to get a spot in the North team and is quite affective. Campbell looks good and has a future but he is still young and needs time to develop.

I'm still lukewarm on the value that Campbell will offer and I think Minson is at least as good as MacIntosh as a ruckman but probably behind him when resting as a forward.
In other words, there would be no real upgrade.

Like Bulldogsman has mentioned, there are plenty of other areas I would focus on before looking to replace Minson. Anyway, the call is now for Will to make. If he wants to go elsewhere we won't get a lot for him and if he stays then he's our number one ruckman.

[Eastdog]

I'm still lukewarm on the value that Campbell will offer and I think Minson is at least as good as MacIntosh as a ruckman but probably behind him when resting as a forward.
In other words, there would be no real upgrade.

Like Bulldogsman has mentioned, there are plenty of other areas I would focus on before looking to replace Minson. Anyway, the call is now for Will to make. If he wants to go elsewhere we won't get a lot for him and if he stays then he's our number one ruckman.

Do you rate Roughead and Cordy GVG? They need still a lot more to
to develop. How would they be used in our team going forward.

[GVGjr]

Do you rate Roughead and Cordy GVG? They need still a lot more to
to develop. How would they be used in our team going forward.

Cordy has made improvement but he isn't a key forward yet. How much more time do we give him?
Roughead is a decent ruckman but must learn to be more productive when he's in the forward line and especially learn how to convert his chances in front of the goals.
We've tried his at times as a defender but I think that is more about his development rather than a genuine option for him.

[Ghost Dog]

Cordy has made improvement but he isn't a key forward yet. How much more time do we give him?
Roughead is a decent ruckman but must learn to be more productive when he's in the forward line and especially learn how to convert his chances in front of the goals.
We've tried his at times as a defender but I think that is more about his development rather than a genuine option for him.

Roughy has been about 30 meters out before and the ball has hardly made it to goal. Major worries about his kicking ability.

[bornadog]

Roughy has been about 30 meters out before and the ball has hardly made it to goal. Major worries about his kicking ability.

Roughy is actually a thumping kick. I think he just lacks confidence in his ability to kick goals.

[GVGjr]

Roughy has been about 30 meters out before and the ball has hardly made it to goal. Major worries about his kicking ability.


Roughy is actually a thumping kick. I think he just lacks confidence in his ability to kick goals.

As BAD pointed out, he can kick a long goal but he gets the yips for the 30mtr chances

[bulldogsman]

How about a key forward. That is a big hole we need to fill. 5 midfielders can equal 1 key forward so it's very difficult.

A good FF would be nice. Very hard to find though.

[The Underdog]

Roughy has been about 30 meters out before and the ball has hardly made it to goal. Major worries about his kicking ability.

That sounds more like a description of Cordy to me. he can shank a kick with the best of them.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Although Cordy has improved, my fear is that he's neither a key forward nor a ruck, which leaves him (and us) in an awkward position.

[chef]

Although Cordy has improved, my fear is that he's neither a key forward nor a ruck, which leaves him (and us) in an awkward position.

I'm worried that he is a forward version of Cameron White.

[jeemak]

I'm not phased with Ayce at all. He's still so bloody raw, and needs to develop his strenght. It will happen for him, we've just got to be prepared to wait until he's played 50-75 games.

Same with Jones and Roughead.

[Eastdog]

Although Cordy has improved, my fear is that he's neither a key forward nor a ruck, which leaves him (and us) in an awkward position.

How could we best use him? I think we still need more time with him and he hasnt played enough games yet.

[Scraggers]

I'm not phased with Ayce at all. He's still so bloody raw, and needs to develop his strenght. It will happen for him, we've just got to be prepared to wait until he's played 50-75 games.

Same with Jones and Roughead.

Agreed ... I think all three will be good for us.

[Bulldog4life]

I'm worried that he is a forward version of Cameron White.

Not a bad cricketer. :) Think you mean Wight.

[LostDoggy]

Cordy won't make it if he doesn't fill out more. He is tall and still young, give him chance.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Cordy won't make it if he doesn't fill out more. He is tall and still young, give him chance.

He does need to learn to present better on a lead, rather than trying to just vertically jump up to the ball from a standing start.
Then again we could have a budding Tony Lockett in our side at the moment and even he would be up against it with the abyssmal way we move the ball.

[LostDoggy]

He does need to learn to present better on a lead, rather than trying to just vertically jump up to the ball from a standing start.
Then again we could have a budding Tony Lockett in our side at the moment and even he would be up against it with the abyssmal way we move the ball.

Spot on

[chef]

Not a bad cricketer. :) Think you mean Wight.

Nah, he was pretty average too.

[w3design]

I know he has actually been good this year but do you really rate Minson? Someone like Macintosh could be good for us as he is struggling to get a spot in the North team and is quite affective. Campbell looks good and has a future but he is still young and needs time to develop.

Not really surprised Macintosh is struggling for a game at NM. He is a passable backup forward. But as a ruckman any of our four options are equal or better. As for Minno, he would eat 4 Macintoshes for breakfast, and spit them out for morning tea.

Havn't we already had numerous posts about rucks substituting for genuine forwards already? Why add to the situation by bringing in another 'neither one thing nor the other'.

[soupman]

He does need to learn to present better on a lead, rather than trying to just vertically jump up to the ball from a standing start.


I agree. He doesn't move at all.

That instance where Williams had it 55m out and had to dodge the man on the mark to make something happen, Cordy just stood in the goalsquare behind his man and didn't lead up or anything. This has got to come down to coaching.

Either he isn't being instructed to do this and just decides to do it on a regular basis, in which case our coaches should pull him aside and tell him our players can't kick it 60m to him, or the coaches are telling him to stay there, which equally worries me. He is fine in at least making a contest, but I want to see him actually be proactive in providing an option. 200cm of gangliness has to be hard to stop on the lead.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I agree. He doesn't move at all.

That instance where Williams had it 55m out and had to dodge the man on the mark to make something happen, Cordy just stood in the goalsquare behind his man and didn't lead up or anything. This has got to come down to coaching.

Either he isn't being instructed to do this and just decides to do it on a regular basis, in which case our coaches should pull him aside and tell him our players can't kick it 60m to him, or the coaches are telling him to stay there, which equally worries me. He is fine in at least making a contest, but I want to see him actually be proactive in providing an option. 200cm of gangliness has to be hard to stop on the lead.

it's very frustrating to watch isn't it.
He thinks he's still in the school yard at lunchtime.

[soupman]

Just with regard to Mulligan, he has tweeted the following tonight:

"Hey everyone my new personal/group training business is starting in september "one fitness" ...
"You will be trained by myself and its a..."

Would that indicate that he has been told that there isn't a spot for him next year and to pursue other opportunities?

[westdog54]

Just with regard to Mulligan, he has tweeted the following tonight:

"Hey everyone my new personal/group training business is starting in september "one fitness" ...
"You will be trained by myself and its a..."

Would that indicate that he has been told that there isn't a spot for him next year and to pursue other opportunities?

Has possibly seen the writing on the wall?

[G-Mo77]

Just with regard to Mulligan, he has tweeted the following tonight:

"Hey everyone my new personal/group training business is starting in september "one fitness" ...
"You will be trained by myself and its a..."

Would that indicate that he has been told that there isn't a spot for him next year and to pursue other opportunities?

Good on him for venturing out into other areas.

[LostDoggy]

He does need to learn to present better on a lead, rather than trying to just vertically jump up to the ball from a standing start.
Then again we could have a budding Tony Lockett in our side at the moment and even he would be up against it with the abyssmal way we move the ball.

He has come up through the juniors where his sheer height meant that he could take marks against little contest. Against men some of whom match his height he has no idea how to use his body to either outmanoevre his opposition or by getting in front and holding him out. He has much work to do in this area.

On the lead, on the very rare occasion when he does so, like Jones he runs straight at the ball carrier instead of at the angle to give both the ball carrier and himself a better chance of success.

[Ghost Dog]

He has come up through the juniors where his sheer height meant that he could take marks against little contest. Against men some of whom match his height he has no idea how to use his body to either outmanoevre his opposition or by getting in front and holding him out. He has much work to do in this area.

On the lead, on the very rare occasion when he does so, like Jones he runs straight at the ball carrier instead of at the angle to give both the ball carrier and himself a better chance of success.

Should see some improvement soon on this front I'd say, if our forward coach is any good.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Should see some improvement soon on this front I'd say, if our forward coach is any good.

Sorry but I think this is the biggest issue at the club, we have not seen anything that resembles development, tactics, coaching or mentoring in tis area. We even have Barry Hall, Chris Grant, Brad Johnson that wold give time to come down and help out. However I feel we have a forward coach out of his depth and struggling to forfil his role.

[LostDoggy]

Sorry but I think this is the biggest issue at the club, we have not seen anything that resembles development, tactics, coaching or mentoring in tis area. We even have Barry Hall, Chris Grant, Brad Johnson that wold give time to come down and help out. However I feel we have a forward coach out of his depth and struggling to forfil his role.

I don't absolve the forward line coach of all guilt but when you movement of the ball is treacle slow and your disposal inside 50 is awful, no forward line could prosper.

[Mofra]

He has come up through the juniors where his sheer height meant that he could take marks against little contest. Against men some of whom match his height he has no idea how to use his body to either outmanoevre his opposition or by getting in front and holding him out. He has much work to do in this area.

On the lead, on the very rare occasion when he does so, like Jones he runs straight at the ball carrier instead of at the angle to give both the ball carrier and himself a better chance of success.
I remember his first season at Willy when playing on the HF line, a feature of his play was the ability to lead at the ball carrier at every opportunity. It's something that seems to be dropping off after a positive start to the year. Williams in H1 provided an example of what constantly presenting to the ball carrier does.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I don't absolve the forward line coach of all guilt but when you movement of the ball is treacle slow and your disposal inside 50 is awful, no forward line could prosper.

Yes Chops you are right, however I am frustrated even with the starting set up from centre bounces. I don't think we have tried any other forward posistioning since the start of the year. Also just the lack of change in personal through the forward fifty, get on the front foot as a coach and come out and say that ou are backing in the attached players for the next few weeks and see how it goes. I would even say that we should play the two Ff as extra wingman, this would drag two defenders up the ground and crate space to lead, that said we must instruct the forwards to lead, that said we have in the past had a super forward line and no talls and yes the ball moment was better but if you ollow the stats we are getting it in the forward fifty but it,s rebounding out far to easily. I feel this is also an area that the ouch can impact on very quickly, if you don't get a man or chase a man it's off to Willie you go. Hence room for Panos to come in

[bulldogsman]

Yes Chops you are right, however I am frustrated even with the starting set up from centre bounces. I don't think we have tried any other forward posistioning seance the start of the year. Also just the lack of change in personal through the forward fifty, get on the front foot as a coach and come out and say that ou are backing in the attached players for the next few weeks and see how it goes. I would even say that we should play the two Ff as extra wingman, this would drag two defenders up the ground and crate space to lead, that said we must instruct the forwards to lead, that said we have in the past had a super forward line and no talls and yes the ball moment was better but if you ollow the stats we are getting it in the forward fifty but it,s rebounding out far to easily. I feel this is also an area that the ouch can impact on very quickly, if you don't get a man or chase a man it's off to Willie you go. Hence room for Panos to come in

Calling on the dead? I like it, I wonder what Mr Football has to say ;)

[westdog54]

Calling on the dead? I like it, I wonder what Mr Football has to say ;)

Haha, well spotted, edited for bulldogsman's benefit.

[Rocco Jones]

I mentioned delisting a whole heap awhile ago and I definitely haven't changed my opinion.

I actually think our kids are pretty good but the middle aged glut of players who offer very little need to go.

Delist/Trade
Not sure anyone would disagree with Mulligan, Gilbee, Hooper and Moles going.

Shaggy looks done.

I know he has his fans but Panos is just serviceable at VFL level, a throwback.

Zeph is nowhere near it, borderline VFL standard.

I really like the way DJ goes about it but he isn't up to it.

Vez- what is the point? Really doesn't fit the modern game. We know he won't make it. If he had a great attitude I'd keep him but what's the point? JJ and even Jong have already shown more.

Markovic- He is older, seems like he has a great attitude but I think his limitations mean he can only pick up immobile types. I would prefer to give these roles to Roughead/Talia to help develop them. Perhaps we could trade him to a side who could do with a mature KP defender/back up (Saints/GWS etc) for whatever we can get?

Sherman- I rate him a bit but it really doesn't look like he will work with B-Mac. A year to run on his contract I think and I definitely wouldn't pay him out etc but seems like any trade would be a win if we are just waiting out his contract.

That's 10 delistings (not counting Sherman trade)

Rookie elevations

JJ- Absolute cert.

Jong- looks pretty good in his first year. Would probably prefer to have him on rookie list but I would much rather him than another list clogger.

Campbell- Doesn't really go well with Will (assuming he stays on) but again weak list and I rate him in our top 40. Even though the 2nd ruck role really doesn't suit him, I still think he does more in the role than Ayce.

Austin- depends on Markovic and how where we see his body is at. With Talia, Roberts and Roughy on the list, I would have only one of Markovic and Austin on the senior list. Ideally I would like to trade Austin and Markovic around on senior/rookie list.

So that's 10 off the senior list and 4 elevated from the rookies. I know it sounds extreme but if they were just 14 players in own right, I would have the rookies as the 4 I would most want to keep.

That means 6 draft picks. 2 in 1st round, 1 in 2nd round, 2 in 3rd round nad 1 in the 4th round.

[stefoid]

Yep, hard to argue with any of that, but I dont see us cutting that many of those middle-aged players this year - vezpremi, sherman, marcovic - they offer some depth which me might actually want to use if we dont plan on sucking next year as much as we have sucked this year.

Over the next 2 or 3 years they will be gone one way or the other. Hell, they might even improve - Dylan Addison style.

[Rocco Jones]

Yep, hard to argue with any of that, but I dont see us cutting that many of those middle-aged players this year - vezpremi, sherman, marcovic - they offer some depth which me might actually want to use if we dont plan on sucking next year as much as we have sucked this year.

Over the next 2 or 3 years they will be gone one way or the other. Hell, they might even improve - Dylan Addison style.

At the stage our list is at, I would only keep 'depth' types if they are great role models/help the kids develop.

Vez- still pretty young himself at 22 but I really cannot see him making it. Too slow to play forward and I would rather see others have a go at the small defensive role.

Markovic- as I mentioned, I would rather Talia/Roughy have a go at playing on the tall forwards Marko gets. I think our tall defensive depth's actually OK.

Sherman- I want him but I don't think he can work with B-Mac. Why waste time, resources and trade value?

[bornadog]

Rocco, I agree with everything you said. Would you look at trying to get a gun from another club, around the 24/25 year old bracket if they were available?

[Rocco Jones]

Rocco, I agree with everything you said. Would you look at trying to get a gun from another club, around the 24/25 year old bracket if they were available?

I have long been a fan of getting Xavier Ellis in a 'Moneyball' kind of way. Lots of his type at the Hawks. I feel they have given him a go against weaker opponents to inflate his worth.

Perhaps going with a state leaguer? Surely it's worth a punt over what we know already with DJ, Marko and Vez. A bit like a lottery ticket for next week vs non-winning one from last week.

[divvydan]

Gilbee has officially retired accoring to Mark Stevens


Mark Stevens ‏@StevoHeraldSun
Change rolls on at Dogs. Lindsay Gilbee, one of footy's good guys, has retired. Still has sore spots, so no farewell game.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Gilbee has officially retired accoring to Mark Stevens

In full flight he was great to watch from 2005-2009.

One of the best kicks during that period of all time.

[comrade]

In full flight he was great to watch from 2005-2009.

One of the best kicks during that period of all time.

It's a shame we'll never again see a Lindsay special. Nothing better than watching one of our guys hand it off outside 50 and watch it sail over the umpires head.

Thanks for the memories, Gilbs.

[LostDoggy]

Will be sad to see Gilbee go, one of the best kicks in afl. Wish him the best in retirement.

[Maddog37]

Shaggy gone too.

[LostDoggy]

Sad to see Gilb's career come to an end. Shaggy too according to the AFL

[stefoid]

At the stage our list is at, I would only keep 'depth' types if they are great role models/help the kids develop.

Vez- still pretty young himself at 22 but I really cannot see him making it. Too slow to play forward and I would rather see others have a go at the small defensive role.

Markovic- as I mentioned, I would rather Talia/Roughy have a go at playing on the tall forwards Marko gets. I think our tall defensive depth's actually OK.

Sherman- I want him but I don't think he can work with B-Mac. Why waste time, resources and trade value?

I want us to aggressively trade down our picks this year and draft up bigtime. If we are going to suck this bad, we better make damn best use of it - if we can get reasonable pick upgrades from any of these players, then sure. In particular -

downgrade our 2nd rounder by 6 or 7 spots would give us a real crack at a 'slider'.
downgrade our compensation 3rd round pick to the mid 2nd round area would give us a crack at Tom Lee without having to use our 2nd rounder on him.


But delist these guys outright? Not this year.

BTW, anyone seen Tom Lee play? Any WA dogs out there? thoughts.

[Mofra]

I want us to aggressively trade down our picks this year and draft up bigtime. If we are going to suck this bad, we better make damn best use of it - if we can get reasonable pick upgrades from any of these players, then sure.
I'd like this to happen too - but realistically, how many teams will decide that the key to strengthening the depth of their list will be by adding a fringe player from a bottom 4 side?

[stefoid]

I'd like this to happen too - but realistically, how many teams will decide that the key to strengthening the depth of their list will be by adding a fringe player from a bottom 4 side?

Richmond, North and St Kilda have bought our damaged goods in the past.

[Mofra]

Ray, Power, Rawlings & McMahon were regular senior players though.
Unless we are looking at Grant and/or Sherman, who would still have less currency than the above players?

[LostDoggy]

I love watching him play but I'd happily trade Lake to win a premiership in the future (If he wanted to go - he has earned the right).

Lake to Hawthorn (or similar). Hawthorn (or similar) to on-trade 2 hardbodies to GWS for the 1st pick in the 17 year old draft to us? Take Hogan in the minidraft and then Wines and O'Rourke or Toumpas (latter probably not available) with picks 5 and 6.

Hard to lose Lake but could be a win:win for the future.

[stefoid]

Ray, Power, Rawlings & McMahon were regular senior players though.
Unless we are looking at Grant and/or Sherman, who would still have less currency than the above players?

Were they? Gratn has more of the dreaded 'P' word than any of those guys. Grant has currency. Sherman still has currency - this year.

[G-Mo77]

Shaggy's tweet. re: retirement .

@shagwa25: Sad it is the end but enjoyed every minute and look forward to life after footy. Thanks to all the great doggies supporters. #overandout"

[Bulldog Joe]

Expect to see Sherman and Veszpremi not at the Dogs in 2013.

Pretty sure Markovic will be there. The coach rates him.

[stefoid]

Oh and to make Guidos day there is a rumour we are looking at Gumbleton

[Mantis]

Pretty sure Markovic will be there. The coach rates him.

Not sure how he could, he has been poor and can't stay on the park... I would prefer we developed Talia & Roberts.

[azabob]

Oh and to make Guidos day there is a rumour we are looking at Gumbleton

Where is that rumour coming from? I hope it isn't true.

[bornadog]

Where is that rumour coming from? I hope it isn't true.

yeah me too.

[Greystache]

Where is that rumour coming from? I hope it isn't true.

I'd be open to looking at it, but it would need to be for a token draft pick, nothing more.

[Bulldog Joe]

Not sure how he could, he has been poor and can't stay on the park... I would prefer we developed Talia & Roberts.

We are probably not sure how a few things are arrived at.
Markovic is a mature body and at the very least could be used to protect the the younger players while they develop the required strength.

[azabob]

I'd be open to looking at it, but it would need to be for a token draft pick, nothing more.

I really think Essendon will push for a high draft pick due to the whole Caddy & Daniher situation.

I still worry about his body being able to stand up to the rigours of AFL and we already have a few players with those issues.

[Greystache]

I really think Essendon will push for a high draft pick due to the whole Caddy & Daniher situation.

I still worry about his body being able to stand up to the rigours of AFL and we already have a few players with those issues.

Agree, his body is a massive risk and certainly not something I'd be willing to risk much on. When fit he its an elite endurance runner and can take a good grab, but his kicking is average and he's yet to really dominate consistently at AFL level. If Essendon want a big return for him I'd happily pass.

[stefoid]

Where is that rumour coming from? I hope it isn't true.

http://www.footballnation.com.au/afl/afl-clubs/rumour-mill-bulldogs-show-interest-in-gumbleton/

[G-Mo77]

http://www.footballnation.com.au/afl/afl-clubs/rumour-mill-bulldogs-show-interest-in-gumbleton/

It looks a little nicer wrapped up like that in a nice glossy website but it's got as much credibility as an SEN caller. I'd find it very hard to believe if we were going after Gumby, I'd also be disgusted!

Not having a crack at you stefoid but it is what it is.

[jeemak]

Not sure how he could, he has been poor and can't stay on the park... I would prefer we developed Talia & Roberts.

I suppose it depends on where the coaching staff see William's future (forward or back) and whether there are any realistic overtures towards Lake.

If Lake was to be traded out (which I hope he isn't) I think keeping Marko is a reasonable move. He's not going to set the world on fire, though let's face it, none of Roughead, Talia and Roberts are likely to be able to perform at Marko's level next year, or the year after (though I do agree, the body concerns are reasonable).

[BulldogBelle]

Don't we already have our own Gumbleton similar-type player in Williams? Right age, extremely injury prone but still a very promising forward?

[Bulldog Joe]

Don't we already have our own Gumbleton similar-type player in Williams? Right age, extremely injury prone but still a very promising forward?

Well Williams could be a mentor for Gumbleton. Would be able to escort him through all of the rehab :rolleyes:

[westbulldog]

Time to stop recruiting recycled players who simply won't take us anywhere and delist those who have had ample chances and haven't made it. Goodbye, IMO, to Veszpremi, Sherman, Markovic, Skinner, Grant, Hooper, Moles and Djerrkura. Promote the rookies and draft well.

[AndrewP6]

I suppose it depends on where the coaching staff see William's future (forward or back) and whether there are any realistic overtures towards Lake.

If Lake was to be traded out (which I hope he isn't) I think keeping Marko is a reasonable move. He's not going to set the world on fire, though let's face it, none of Roughead, Talia and Roberts are likely to be able to perform at Marko's level next year, or the year after (though I do agree, the body concerns are reasonable).

We're not revisiting that are we?

[Eastdog]

Time to stop recruiting recycled players who simply won't take us anywhere and delist those who have had ample chances and haven't made it. Goodbye, IMO, to Veszpremi, Sherman, Markovic, Skinner, Grant, Hooper, Moles and Djerrkura. Promote the rookies and draft well.

With Sydney it seems to work well and they seem to always be competitive but it is more likely to fail than be a success. The best option is to draft kids and develop them. This takes time and im sure in a couple of years time will play finals again as we have a really exciting young bridgade coming through.

[azabob]

We're not revisiting that are we?

In fairness Jeemak did say he didn't want to trade him .

[Eastdog]

In fairness Jeemak did say he didn't want to trade him .

Brian Lake is one of the player from the more experienced that should stay on to guide the younger players.

[AndrewP6]

In fairness Jeemak did say he didn't want to trade him .

True.

[azabob]

Brian Lake is one of the player from the more experienced that should stay on to guide the younger players.

Yes he should and plus he can still play a bit!

[Eastdog]

Yes he should and plus he can still play a bit!

Definitely his still got it and before his injury setback he was one of the most highly regarded fullbacks in the AFL. While we need to keep some experience we also have to cut deep into the list but make sure we don't cut too much.