A 2nd Dog to GWS with Ward

[LostDoggy]

Interesting talk on another forum regarding Callan Wards likely move to GWS whereby the Bulldogs will also be trading Sam Reid to the new franchise in the trade period.

Apparently his initial agreement stipulated that they also trade a "friend" from the Bulldogs and that the club is to adequately rewarded so that we are favourably positioned to gain high draft selections.

I dont know where this information came from however, if true it may be a little more palatable is we end up with 2 first round picks for Callan and another for Reid.

Has anyone else heard of this potential agreement?

[Desipura]

2 first round picks would numb the pain providing we use them wisely

[Rocco Jones]

Apparently his initial agreement stipulated that they also trade a "friend" from the Bulldogs and that the club is to adequately rewarded so that we are favourably positioned to gain high draft selections.


Sounds a bit like the Gary and Nathan Ablett thing at GC. Surely drafting in Nathan had at the very least something to do with making Gary happy.

[Rocco Jones]

2 first round picks would numb the pain providing we use them wisely

I think the deals would need to be mutually exclusive, like Brennan and Rischitelli. You don't get a combo deal, you get a deal for each individual.

Ward's age and massive salary mean we could be pushing for two first round picks on his own but apparently just the one first rounder seems more likely.

I think Sam Reid will get us a 3rd round pick, would be rapt with anything more.

[GVGjr]

Interesting talk on another forum regarding Callan Wards likely move to GWS whereby the Bulldogs will also be trading Sam Reid to the new franchise in the trade period.

Apparently his initial agreement stipulated that they also trade a "friend" from the Bulldogs and that the club is to adequately rewarded so that we are favourably positioned to gain high draft selections.

I dont know where this information came from however, if true it may be a little more palatable is we end up with 2 first round picks for Callan and another for Reid.

Has anyone else heard of this potential agreement?


I think Reid is a candidate for a trade to GWS and Ward and Reid are good friends but I can't see why we think GWS will give a first rounder for Reid in fact I'm sure it won't happen.

[Rocco Jones]

I think Reid is a candidate for a trade to GWS and Ward and Reid are good friends but I can't see why we think GWS will give a first rounder for Reid in fact I'm sure it won't happen.

I am pretty sure Reid is uncontracted so that means GWS don't decide the compo, the AFL do. A bit like Brisbane agreeing to letting a second player go.

[Remi Moses]

Won't get a first rounder for Sam. Looks like they're going with more harder bodies than the Suns.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Saw that.

Sounds odd. I am surprised so many are believing it.

Surely Reid would only net us a fourth round pick. At the most, they might give us access to a state league player.

[LostDoggy]

Everyone is saying they will be happy if two 1st rounders come our way. Does anyone know how strong this coming draft is?? What if it is a fizzer? Anyone with their finger on the pulse out there??

[ledge]

Everyone is saying they will be happy if two 1st rounders come our way. Does anyone know how strong this coming draft is?? What if it is a fizzer? Anyone with their finger on the pulse out there??

We dont have to use them this year.

[LostDoggy]

We dont have to use them this year.

Exactly correct

[chef]

I am pretty sure Reid is uncontracted so that means GWS don't decide the compo, the AFL do. A bit like Brisbane agreeing to letting a second player go.

But he would be the second player from our club to go there so they(GWS) would have to do a trade with us(not the AFL), as in the Brennan trade.

[Rocco Jones]

But he would be the second player from our club to go there so they(GWS) would have to do a trade with us(not the AFL), as in the Brennan trade.

Was the Brennan one a trade? I thought the AFL decided and handed the compensation as Brisbane agreed to it and GC didn't sign 16 free agents.

[chef]

Was the Brennan one a trade? I thought the AFL decided and handed the compensation as Brisbane agreed to it and GC didn't sign 16 free agents.

Pretty sure it was Brennan and pick 10 for pick 5, but I could be wrong.

[Rocco Jones]

Pretty sure it was Brennan and pick 10 for pick 5, but I could be wrong.

You're right, it was a trade. The Lions also received a 3rd round pick as part of the deal.

[LostDoggy]

I think Sam Reid's younger brother Ben is already training with GWS. Yes they have the same names but in reverse order as Bruce Reid's sons.

[Mofra]

Interesting talk on another forum regarding Callan Wards likely move to GWS whereby the Bulldogs will also be trading Sam Reid to the new franchise in the trade period.

Apparently his initial agreement stipulated that they also trade a "friend" from the Bulldogs and that the club is to adequately rewarded so that we are favourably positioned to gain high draft selections.
Sounds consistent with what I've heard about Callan - it was a difficult decision to leave and wanting to do the right thing by us in the circumstances

[BulldogBelle]

If we received 2 first round draft picks for Ward

And via a separate trade for Reid we received a 3rd round pick it would greatly soften the blow

If they gave us a 2nd round pick for Addison who is exactly what they need in a local product who has a mature body I would be over the moon

[Rocco Jones]

If we received 2 first round draft picks for Ward

And via a separate trade for Reid we received a 3rd round pick it would greatly soften the blow

If they gave us a 2nd round pick for Addison who is exactly what they need in a local product who has a mature body I would be over the moon

Not going to happen. Way, way overs.

[Remi Moses]

You never know Rocco the way Sheedy traded towards the end at the Bombres. Never discount anyone, I hear the name Paul Salmon!!

[strebla]

You never know Rocco the way Sheedy traded towards the end at the Bombres. Never discount anyone, I hear the name Paul Salmon!!

The Salmon trade was to win a flag though this is a much different kettle of fish (pardon the pun).

[LostDoggy]

But this deal may have been put together to cement Wards signing.

[Mofra]

But this deal may have been put together to cement Wards signing.
Everything I've heard about Ward's character would suggest he would try to structure something to ensure we received adequate compensation above what the AFL would try to impose.

Make the character assassination of Ward a little embarrassing.

[Topdog]

Everything I've heard about Ward's character would suggest he would try to structure something to ensure we received adequate compensation above what the AFL would try to impose.

Make the character assassination of Ward a little embarrassing.

If he really wanted adequate compensation he'd have signed for the dogs and then asked to be traded to GWS.

[strebla]

If he really wanted adequate compensation he'd have signed for the dogs and then asked to be traded to GWS.
X2 spot on TopDog

[Mofra]

If he really wanted adequate compensation he'd have signed for the dogs and then asked to be traded to GWS.
Why would GWS bother trading away picks when they can target uncontracted players and keep the picks they have?

[Greystache]

If he really wanted adequate compensation he'd have signed for the dogs and then asked to be traded to GWS.

Bingo.

He wants the club to be adequately compensated, so long as it doesn't affect him in any way. Pretty much standard.

[Doc26]

If he really wanted adequate compensation he'd have signed for the dogs and then asked to be traded to GWS.

Spot on.

Ward has shown his colours, don't think he'd give a rats tossbag how we were compensated for his act. Unlike the likes of Kreuzer, Thomas, Selwood, Martin, Trengove etc etc who all could have equally received a giants pot of gold, greed rather than strong values no doubt runs through Ward's veins. With that said, it's the AFL and in particular its commission that I blame for creating this landscape that promotes such greed, that eats so heavily into Club's in our position.

[Sedat]

Ward has shown his colours, don't think he'd give a rats tossbag how we were compensated for his act. Unlike the likes of Kreuzer, Thomas, Selwood, Martin, Trengove etc etc who all could have equally received a giants pot of gold, greed rather than strong values no doubt runs through Ward's veins. With that said, it's the AFL and in particular its commission that I blame for creating this landscape that promotes such greed, that eats so heavily into Club's in our position.
Add Andrew Swallow to that list - the list of players staying at their original clubs is a hell of a lot longer than the list of those that have moved, yet we figure prominantly on the moved list. You can blame the system as much as you want but most other clubs have comfortably resisted the lure of the expansion clubs for their 'must retain' player list (a list that both Harbrow and Ward would very comfortably slot into at the Bulldogs).

Make no mistake, this is a massive failure by our contract negotiators/list managers not to retain Ward. There can be no other conclusion reached. Either their negotiating approach was ham-fisted and amateurish and their ability to sell the future vision of the Western Bulldogs was poorly delivered without conviction, or Ward is the devil incarnate. Clearly it's not the latter.

With the same people who negotiated with Ward's management remaining in charge of trade week negotiations, I am looking forward to 2011 trade week as much as I was in 2003 trade week :(

[Greystache]

Add another Trengove to that list, plus Murphy, Hurley, the list goes on. GWS probably approached 30 young rising stars, about 5 said yes, says something about the 16% of players who "couldn't possibly turn down the offer of a lifetime" than it does about the 84% who did.

[Doc26]

Add Andrew Swallow to that list - the list of players staying at their original clubs is a hell of a lot longer than the list of those that have moved, yet we figure prominantly on the moved list. You can blame the system as much as you want but most other clubs have comfortably resisted the lure of the expansion clubs for their 'must retain' player list (a list that both Harbrow and Ward would very comfortably slot into at the Bulldogs).

Make no mistake, this is a massive failure by our contract negotiators/list managers not to retain Ward. There can be no other conclusion reached. Either their negotiating approach was ham-fisted and amateurish and their ability to sell the future vision of the Western Bulldogs was poorly delivered without conviction, or Ward is the devil incarnate. Clearly it's not the latter.

With the same people who negotiated with Ward's management remaining in charge of trade week negotiations, I am looking forward to 2011 trade week as much as I was in 2003 trade week :(

I don't disagree with this. In the end, with so much money gifted to GCS & GWS to lure listed, uncontracted players away from clubs, it's the weakest part of a structure that gives. In this case those in charge of selling the vision and value of our Club have been left wanting against those of our competitors although to be fair, resource and profile wise we are a million miles behind those at the top of the tree which means we're always fighting to make this ground up on them. This is where the AFL have continued to screw us over. Does it surprise me that a Kreuzer stays at Carlton or a Thomas at Collingwood ? not really, it does that a Swallow would stay at North, says a lot to me about the kid and also how they've managed to sell the value to him.

[LostDoggy]

Everything I've heard about Ward's character would suggest he would try to structure something to ensure we received adequate compensation above what the AFL would try to impose.

Make the character assassination of Ward a little embarrassing.

Mofra, you really think old cement head structured a deal with GWS for us to receive a 17-year old from the mini-draft? I love that you have so much faith in humankind, but I'll put this to you, using only stuff from the public record so I don't get into trouble:

- We know for a fact that Fantasia has been lying about putting a deal on Callan's table to appease the fans. Who knows how far back this has been going on for and how long the club's known.

- We know for a fact that Callan has lied at least a couple of times about 'not being sure' (when he's signed) and also when he said today that he only decided after the season ended.

- We know that the AFL lies regularly. Demetriou's denials about tanking alone would get him in the record books for straightest face while lying.

I put it to you that Callan signed a while ago, the club and the AFL have known for yonks, and they've been putting a deal over compensation behind closed doors. The AFL know that we've been screwed a couple of times now and have structured something to suit -- so in a sense it IS a package deal (with Callan and Reid). All the messaging has been to appease fans (from the club), protect his brand (Callan) and try to balance the compensation out (AFL). I mean, they'll announce the compensation this week -- do you really think that the AFL pull together the compensation decisions in two days? They have secret signing windows, you don't think they have secret negotiations?

It's weird -- in this GWS/GC17 thing, the AFL has been at pains to keep all the nasty business behind closed doors to maintain some sort of moral high ground over League and Soccer (we don't defect mid-season, we don't treat players like commodities etc.), but seem happy enough to lie to keep up this moral front. Similar to the tanking issue, the AFL seem to have decided a long time ago that lying was the least of all evils.

A conspiracy theory involving every head of state in the world with different agendas -- hard to believe. A conspiracy theory involving three parties who have all proven that they are happy to lie, and are in it together, is not only likely but practically guaranteed.

I like your faith in humanity, Mofra, but I'm afraid I'm a lot more cynical about the emperor's clothes and how things really work behind the scenes.

In the legal world I think this is called f***ing overwhelming circumstantial evidence.

[W W Biscuit]

Mofra, you really think old cement head structured a deal with GWS for us to receive a 17-year old from the mini-draft? I love that you have so much faith in humankind, but I'll put this to you, using only stuff from the public record so I don't get into trouble:

- We know for a fact that Fantasia has been lying about putting a deal on Callan's table to appease the fans. Who knows how far back this has been going on for and how long the club's known.

- We know for a fact that Callan has lied at least a couple of times about 'not being sure' (when he's signed) and also when he said today that he only decided after the season ended.

- We know that the AFL lies regularly. Demetriou's denials about tanking alone would get him in the record books for straightest face while lying.

I put it to you that Callan signed a while ago, the club and the AFL have known for yonks, and they've been putting a deal over compensation behind closed doors. The AFL know that we've been screwed a couple of times now and have structured something to suit -- so in a sense it IS a package deal (with Callan and Reid). All the messaging has been to appease fans (from the club), protect his brand (Callan) and try to balance the compensation out (AFL). I mean, they'll announce the compensation this week -- do you really think that the AFL pull together the compensation decisions in two days? They have secret signing windows, you don't think they have secret negotiations?

It's weird -- in this GWS/GC17 thing, the AFL has been at pains to keep all the nasty business behind closed doors to maintain some sort of moral high ground over League and Soccer (we don't defect mid-season, we don't treat players like commodities etc.), but seem happy enough to lie to keep up this moral front. Similar to the tanking issue, the AFL seem to have decided a long time ago that lying was the least of all evils.

A conspiracy theory involving every head of state in the world with different agendas -- hard to believe. A conspiracy theory involving three parties who have all proven that they are happy to lie, and are in it together, is not only likely but practically guaranteed.

I like your faith in humanity, Mofra, but I'm afraid I'm a lot more cynical about the emperor's clothes and how things really work behind the scenes.

In the legal world I think this is called f***ing overwhelming circumstantial evidence.

Thought-provoking post Lantern

[Mofra]

Mofra, you really think old cement head structured a deal with GWS for us to receive a 17-year old from the mini-draft?
We have covered this before, but I don't believe that Ward signed months ago and has been lying to family and friends in a manner that is, with all due respect to him, is well above his intellectual abilities.

Why else would GWS be interested in paying overs for an inside mid with a history of injury, poor skills, average pace and a medical condition that threatons to impact on his career and certainly his longevity?

"I want my friend to come with me" isn't that outrageous a story as far as I'm concerned, considering the overwhelming evidence suggests there is nothing else that attracts GWS to the Sam Reid deall.

[bornadog]

We have covered this before, but I don't believe that Ward signed months ago and has been lying to family and friends in a manner that is, with all due respect to him, is well above his intellectual abilities.

Why else would GWS be interested in paying overs for an inside mid with a history of injury, poor skills, average pace and a medical condition that threatons to impact on his career and certainly his longevity?

"I want my friend to come with me" isn't that outrageous a story as far as I'm concerned, considering the overwhelming evidence suggests there is nothing else that attracts GWS to the Sam Reid deall.

Wards manager confirmed today that he only made his decision last week after months of confusion and not knowing what to do.

As for the Reid thing, agree with you, load of bollocks.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Wards manager confirmed today that he only made his decision last week after months of confusion and not knowing what to do.

As for the Reid thing, agree with you, load of bollocks.

Oh wow, his manager confirmed it it must be true then.

[LostDoggy]

We have covered this before, but I don't believe that Ward signed months ago and has been lying to family and friends in a manner that is, with all due respect to him, is well above his intellectual abilities.

Why else would GWS be interested in paying overs for an inside mid with a history of injury, poor skills, average pace and a medical condition that threatons to impact on his career and certainly his longevity?
.

1.Fair enough Mofra, but do you mind if I ask you what your sources are, and how you're confident that they are absolutely right?

2. I don't understand the second question -- If you're saying that GWS are paying overs because they had to prise him away from us, the question is why would they bother unless they rate him -- I mean, with that kind of money they could go and get other players, they wouldn't get in a bidding war with us. They clearly rated him from a while ago.. it's not like they upped their initial offer.

3. Finally, I agree with you that lying for so long is above his intellectual abilities, unless of course, he has a simple key message to sell -- not sure, not sure, difficult decision, not sure.

Is it really that hard to believe that the AFL run the business largely behind the scenes? You think they would lie about everything EXCEPT Callan? What's so special about him and us?

[LostDoggy]

And if you believe "I want my friend to come with me" is what has caused GWS to move for Reid, you believe in an incredibly innocent version of the AFL. Since when were clubs in the business of moving for players' friends???

Surely a more plausible, business-like reason is that in working out compensation behind the scenes the Dogs wanted more than the original compensation offer from the AFL (probably what we'll end up getting -- Tier 2) especially after losing Harbrow, so the counter offer was also one of the mini-draft players, but with a mature body going the other way. The Dogs probably offered Reid and/or Addison, GWS were happy with Reid and a draft pick, and since Callan and Reid were both going at the same time, the easy sell would be that "Callan wanted a good deal for the Dogs, and he asked for Reid to go with him because he wanted a friend to come along".

[Remi Moses]

Great Post Lantern. Well thought out .
Some on here believing that Ward gives a flying about the club is complete Dog's Bollocks!

[NoseBleed]

Wards manager confirmed today that he only made his decision last week after months of confusion and not knowing what to do.
.

What Bullshite.

He's a whore. No more, no less.

Posture all he likes, send his manager out to "soften the blow" all he likes.

Once money decides where you play, you're a whore.

Jarrod Whorebrow, Callan Whored.

[BulldogBelle]

The deal was done last summer, let no-one be in doubt of this fact... Lantern is correct.

[Remi Moses]

The deal was done last summer, let no-one be in doubt of this fact... Lantern is correct.

Agree, he did it in the window!All this posturing lying, now Mum's chimed in

[LostDoggy]

So if Ward signed in the window last summer. Then another poster was correct in that Fantasia stuffed up by not offering Ward a reasonable contract last year and tying him up. Garlick and Fantasia have both postured about doing their best and putting big deals in front of Callan this year. In other words, after he'd already signed with GWS.

[ReLoad]

So if Ward signed in the window last summer. Then another poster was correct in that Fantasia stuffed up by not offering Ward a reasonable contract last year and tying him up. Garlick and Fantasia have both postured about doing their best and putting big deals in front of Callan this year. In other words, after he'd already signed with GWS.

That maybe true, but did Callan and his management give the dogs an opportunity way back then? What if he did the deal with GWS before his manager had even spoken to us?

It all sounds highly improbable that he signed last year, he would have lost the ability to play the two teams off against each other which is a very poor negotiating tactic.

[Mofra]

1.Fair enough Mofra, but do you mind if I ask you what your sources are, and how you're confident that they are absolutely right?
Teh family themselves - if they can all keep a straight story, over many catch ups, at times udner the influence of alcohol, they are all int he wrong industry


2. I don't understand the second question -- If you're saying that GWS are paying overs because they had to prise him away from us, the question is why would they bother unless they rate him -- I mean, with that kind of money they could go and get other players, they wouldn't get in a bidding war with us. They clearly rated him from a while ago.. it's not like they upped their initial offer.
They are clearly paying overs and I have no doubt that the Reid deal is tied to the Ward deal - no way they are in isolation given how far they are paying overs for Reid.


3. Finally, I agree with you that lying for so long is above his intellectual abilities, unless of course, he has a simple key message to sell -- not sure, not sure, difficult decision, not sure.

Is it really that hard to believe that the AFL run the business largely behind the scenes? You think they would lie about everything EXCEPT Callan? What's so special about him and us?
No, as I've alluded to above the Reid deal is certainbly one that is tied to other deal(s) - whther it is a simple case of Ward wanting his best mate with him, the AFL "helping" negotiations and Reid taking his second chance at AFL football, on the back of the AFL adding some compensation to sweeten the deal for the dogs to help assuage Ward's guilt at leaving, it's all just speculation.

In any case, if we receive Tier 1 compensation and trade in one of those picks for an early first rounder, we have the equivalent of a trade involving a very good player and a fringe inside mid for two first rounders or a first rounder and a probable gun 17 year old - on balance, we'd be winning.

[BulldogBelle]

Nathan Ablett just delisted by the Gold Coast

It will be interesting to see how long Reid lasts at GWS if he is traded - I give him a season

[neddie]

Nathan Ablett just delisted by the Gold Coast

It will be interesting to see how long Reid lasts at GWS if he is traded - I give him a season

You are probably right,but half a loaf is better than no bread!!

[Dancin' Douggy]

You are probably right,but half a loaf is better than no bread!!

And a chicken is better than a turnip

[LostDoggy]

The deal was done last summer, let no-one be in doubt of this fact... Lantern is correct.

I didn't actually say last summer, so yes, there was some negotiating and playing of parties against each other, but yes, my mail is that terms were agreed (if no actual physical contract was signed) quite a while ago.

[LostDoggy]

Teh family themselves - if they can all keep a straight story, over many catch ups, at times udner the influence of alcohol, they are all int he wrong industry
.

That's fair enough -- although if you think about it, if terms were agreed a while ago, no one really had to know except GWS, the AFL compensation negotiator, Fantasia or our compensation negotiator, Callan, and his manager.

His family didn't have to be in on it the whole time, maybe they were told relatively recently themselves -- Callan would have just had to tell them that they didn't have to know the progress of the negotiations, for their own good. I'm positive though that they've certainly had some advice in terms of how to handle the media, although if they didn't know, then they wouldn't be lying if they said they didn't know. Plausible deniability is important with these things, and the less people who were in on it the better.

We know for a fact that Callan HAS lied, however, even for at least a week or two -- it's a matter of (relatively) public record, so it's not a stretch, even just working off what's on the public record, to extrapolate that back a few months.

[Mofra]

I'm positive though that they've certainly had some advice in terms of how to handle the media, although if they didn't know, then they wouldn't be lying if they said they didn't know. Plausible deniability is important with these things, and the less people who were in on it the better.
We obviously have different sources in this scenario so we'll agree to disagree.

[LostDoggy]

We obviously have different sources in this scenario so we'll agree to disagree.

I don't think the mail from our sources are mutually exclusive though -- it's pretty easy to see how they plausibly co-exist. (I'm saying that you're probably absolutely right and your sources are bang on, yet on its own still doesn't disprove my mail).

[Desipura]

We obviously have different sources in this scenario so we'll agree to disagree.

My sources are very similar to yours and I agree with what you have said about Ward not knowing until recently that he was leaving.

[LostDoggy]

My sources are very similar to yours and I agree with what you have said about Ward not knowing until recently that he was leaving.

Desi, genuine question: you really think his mum found out yesterday? That's her line to the press today.

Either she's lying, in which case it throws into doubt all their previous statements to anyone, or it's true, which means that he decided before he told his family (because we know for certain he decided before yesterday). Either way, reliability of family side sources are suspect (either due to dishonesty or necessary ignorance), no?

[Desipura]

Desi, genuine question: you really think his mum found out yesterday? That's her line to the press today.

Either she's lying, in which case it throws into doubt all their previous statements to anyone, or it's true, which means that he decided before he told his family (because we know for certain he decided before yesterday). Either way, reliability of family side sources are suspect (either due to dishonesty or necessary ignorance), no?

I doubt she found out yesterday.
Off record, early last week, she told a close friend that he still had not decided.
Whether she lied to this close long time friend, I can't say for sure.

[LostDoggy]

I doubt she found out yesterday.
Off record, early last week, she told a close friend that he still had not decided.
Whether she lied to this close long time friend, I can't say for sure.

I would suggest then that she just wasn't told for her own good. The fewer people who have to lie the better (and she still did -- "I only found out yesterday" -- quite funny!)

[LostDoggy]

I don't usually chime in with inside info but i will say this and its up to you if you believe me or not.

Callan made his decision 3 weeks ago and informed his family last week along with some close teammates.
Plausible deniability is correct in this instance in terms of his family

[Mitcha]

I don't usually chime in with inside info but i will say this and its up to you if you believe me or not.

Callan made his decision 3 weeks ago and informed his family last week along with some close teammates.
Plausible deniability is correct in this instance in terms of his family
I am not a great believer in off field issues affecting a professional sportsman's performance but it is fair to say Ward's last two performances in the Red, White and Blue were among his poorest which ties in with the above timeline.

[bornadog]

I don't usually chime in with inside info but i will say this and its up to you if you believe me or not.

Callan made his decision 3 weeks ago and informed his family last week along with some close teammates.
Plausible deniability is correct in this instance in terms of his family

Rocket said pretty much the same thing today on SEN.

[Happy Days]

I don't usually chime in with inside info but i will say this and its up to you if you believe me or not.

Callan made his decision 3 weeks ago and informed his family last week along with some close teammates.
Plausible deniability is correct in this instance in terms of his family

Yeah that was my mail too.

Anyway, has there been any more talk about the Reid deal?

[bulldogsman]

Rhyce Palmer and Sam Reid in the same side? I'd like to see that.

We should now be able to identifty who's the worst kick in the AFL.

[LostDoggy]

Can't work out why everyone is so sure Sam Reid won't make it. I see a powerful kid with guts to burn who has had a terrible time with his body. May come back to bite us if we get rid of him. and for all those who knock his kicking our captain isn't much better.

[Remi Moses]

Can't work out why everyone is so sure Sam Reid won't make it. I see a powerful kid with guts to burn who has had a terrible time with his body. May come back to bite us if we get rid of him. and for all those who knock his kicking our captain isn't much better.

I see a kid who has a go but cannot kick, the capt . Isn't a great kick but is abetted one than Sam Reid.Good luck to him regardless. We need good disposal urgently, just watch Hawthorn in action tomorrow night.

[Rocco Jones]

I see a kid who has a go but cannot kick, the capt . Isn't a great kick but is abetted one than Sam Reid.Good luck to him regardless. We need good disposal urgently, just watch Hawthorn in action tomorrow night.

Boyd is not only a better kick but can run hard all game long in the midfield at AFL level. Reid not only moves slowly but he also has a very limited tank.

So basicallly Reid is a midfielder who is/has...
- Hard at the ball
- Poor disposal
- Slow
- Very limited tank

I'm very surprised GWS are keen and I will be happy with ANYTHING for Reid.

[mjp]

Can't work out why everyone is so sure Sam Reid won't make it. I see a powerful kid with guts to burn who has had a terrible time with his body. May come back to bite us if we get rid of him. and for all those who knock his kicking our captain isn't much better.

I see a slow moving midfielder who cannot kick.

Boyd misses targets under extreme pressure. Reid still kicks flour-bags when going back to take his kick after a mark or free-kick.

As an aside, Rhys Palmer is a far better kick that Sam Reid...he is unfairly vilified for this and I just don't understand how he has gone from runaway winner of the rising start to after-thought in 3 years.

[boydogs]

So basicallly Reid is a midfielder who is/has...
- Hard at the ball
- Poor disposal
- Slow
- Very limited tank

Add injury prone. Think Mitch Hahn playing on ball.

[Maddog37]

Maybe the small tank and slow speed were direct results of injury issues and ill health. Also kicking skills reduce when fatigued.

I like his attack on the ball and would like him to get a clear run at things before completely writing him off.

That being said there are a few in front of him at the moment so could understand a trade.

[Greystache]

Can't work out why everyone is so sure Sam Reid won't make it. I see a powerful kid with guts to burn who has had a terrible time with his body. May come back to bite us if we get rid of him. and for all those who knock his kicking our captain isn't much better.

I see a ruckman with the height of a midfielder.

[immortalmike]

I see a slow moving midfielder who cannot kick.

Boyd misses targets under extreme pressure. Reid still kicks flour-bags when going back to take his kick after a mark or free-kick.

As an aside, Rhys Palmer is a far better kick that Sam Reid...he is unfairly vilified for this and I just don't understand how he has gone from runaway winner of the rising start to after-thought in 3 years.

May have something to do with his knee reco. Always takes a young guy a while to get over one of those (except when his name is Tony Liberatore).

[Mantis]

Boyd misses targets under extreme pressure. Reid still kicks flour-bags when going back to take his kick after a mark or free-kick.



Really?

He also misses them (targets) when under no pressure.

[mjp]

Really?

He also misses them (targets) when under no pressure.

I totally disagree with this (as I think you know). His clanger rate is pretty low given his possession rate...I still don't know what everyone wants him to do?

I continually hear that he plays like he 'thinks he is Chris Judd' but given he won the B&F last year and was then made skipper of the club, I maintain he is doing EXACTLY what the coaches are asking him too. I wonder who we would have leading the competition in clearances if Boyd was to become more defensively focussed?

[Doc26]

Really?

He also misses them (targets) when under no pressure.

Mantis, I agree. By definition his 'clanger' count may be in an acceptable range but his efficiency rating by foot is unacceptable and too often it is with little pressure around him. It is all too often that Boyd sits in the 50%-60% range which just hurts our opportunity to convert and compounding this smacks us too often going the other way. The issue has flown under the radar for some time, now the so called media 'experts' have jumped onto it and are now regularly on his case.


I totally disagree with this (as I think you know). His clanger rate is pretty low given his possession rate...I still don't know what everyone wants him to do?]

Work on lifting his efficiency rating by foot if he must demand to play in a similar territory to your Pendleburys & co.


I wonder who we would have leading the competition in clearances if Boyd was to become more defensively focussed?

And this is our current dilemma compounded with the departure of Ward. He and Griffen are our two best mids given Cooney's injury status.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Boyd racks up a lot of possessions in heavy traffic and his ability to find the ball is obviously elite.
He has an admirable desire to get to contest after contest and no one expects him to execute perfect delivery in split second, heavy pressure situations.

It's when he's in the clear, with time and space, and the game in the balance, and he kicks perfectly and directly to the only unmanned OPPOSITION player in our forward line that you put your head in your hands and think " surely we should expect more from our captain"

Boyd deserves to be respected and appreciated for what he does well, but you can't ignore what he doesn't do well.
I'm pretty sure he never gets tagged. I think that pretty much sums it up.

[Doc26]

Boyd racks up a lot of possessions in heavy traffic and his ability to find the ball is obviously elite.
He has an admirable desire to get to contest after contest and no one expects him to execute perfect delivery in split second, heavy pressure situations.

It's when he's in the clear, with time and space, and the game in the balance, and he kicks perfectly and directly to the only unmanned OPPOSITION player in our forward line that you put your head in your hands and think " surely we should expect more from our captain"

Boyd deserves to be respected and appreciated for what he does well, but you can't ignore what he doesn't do well.
I'm pretty sure he never gets tagged. I think that pretty much sums it up.

DD, that was better put than my go at it.

[bornadog]

Boyd racks up a lot of possessions in heavy traffic and his ability to find the ball is obviously elite.
He has an admirable desire to get to contest after contest and no one expects him to execute perfect delivery in split second, heavy pressure situations.

It's when he's in the clear, with time and space, and the game in the balance, and he kicks perfectly and directly to the only unmanned OPPOSITION player in our forward line that you put your head in your hands and think " surely we should expect more from our captain"

Boyd deserves to be respected and appreciated for what he does well, but you can't ignore what he doesn't do well.
I'm pretty sure he never gets tagged. I think that pretty much sums it up.

The point is how many times does he do this out of his average of 30 plus disposals? You are talking about perception rather than facts. I am continually amazed when a player makes an error and that error is amplified to the point that the player is seen as constantly making errors and all the good things they do are over looked.

[Sockeye Salmon]

The point is how many times does he do this out of his average of 30 plus disposals? You are talking about perception rather than facts. I am continually amazed when a player makes an error and that error is amplified to the point that the player is seen as constantly making errors and all the good things they do are over looked.

It's better to get 10 possesions at 100% efficency than 35 touches at 65%.




Therefore




Sam Power > Chris Judd

[MrMahatma]

The point is how many times does he do this out of his average of 30 plus disposals? You are talking about perception rather than facts. I am continually amazed when a player makes an error and that error is amplified to the point that the player is seen as constantly making errors and all the good things they do are over looked.
I'd say he hits an opposition on the t1t when in the clear at least once every game. He did a pearl off half back (I think) against Freo last week. A lot of his handballs end up at team mate's feet as well.

I think he's very important to the team. I think also he suffers when the likes of Cooney can't play the outside role because he takes it on himself to do it all. Important to our team and runs all day. His clangers annoy me but I think that's as much because if he could sort that out he'd be one of the best players in the league, and it feels "so close yet so far" a lot of the time. He certainly frustrates at times though.

[G-Mo77]

I've been bending over and preparing for the compensation picks to be calculated. I thought we'd hear something this week.

[divvydan]

I've been bending over and preparing for the compensation picks to be calculated. I thought we'd hear something this week.

Yeah, expected to know by now as well, have tweeted Patrick Keane to try and find out when they're going to be announced.

[1eyedog]

The point is how many times does he do this out of his average of 30 plus disposals? You are talking about perception rather than facts. I am continually amazed when a player makes an error and that error is amplified to the point that the player is seen as constantly making errors and all the good things they do are over looked.

Well if he's tracking at 50% efficiency he is doing it 50% of the time when he get 30 diposals a match. So 15 times out of every 30.

[bornadog]

Well if he's tracking at 50% efficiency he is doing it 50% of the time when he get 30 diposals a match. So 15 times out of every 30.

Who said he was tracking at 50%? Your maths is good but don't get your point.

[divvydan]

Well if he's tracking at 50% efficiency he is doing it 50% of the time when he get 30 diposals a match. So 15 times out of every 30.

Just looking at Boyd's stats from this year, it's 31.9disp at 62% efficiency (about 5/8) with 3.5 clangers/game. His efficiency isn't that great but he has 14.8 contested possessions/game which puts him equal first in the comp with GAJ. He also is equal leader in comp for clearances with 7/game (with Moloney).

So whilst his disposal isn't brilliant, it is comparable stats wise to Simon Black, Sam Mitchell, Scott Thompson etc and he is winning more contested football and clearances (combined) than any other player in the competition.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

It's the way Boyd turns over the footy. It often costs us goals and they are usually easily avoided errors. (Eg. Stray/blind handballs or his interpretation of a 'bullet like' pass)

If he played within his limitations more, no doubt Boyd would be elite. But he doesn't.

[the banker]

Matthew Boyd is a great player for our Club, however there is a quality to his turnovers that, when watching the game live, and often in the context of the game, the turnover is calamitious.

His execution by both hand and foot sometimes looks suburban standard. Stats often don't give you this perspective.

Nonetheless he is the driving force of the team.

[stefoid]

Needs more support around him. He is a monster at getting the ball but he needs more support to give it off to.

Although I feel this year he has been instructed to bang it long, like the rest of the team to a certain extent, so at least his turnovers happen 50m away.

[Mofra]

If he played within his limitations more, no doubt Boyd would be elite. But he doesn't.
I would still class Boyd as elite - the no 1 contested ball winner in the competition deserves the tag IMO

[bornadog]

I would still class Boyd as elite - the no 1 contested ball winner in the competition deserves the tag IMO

as well as the number one clearance player.

[Maddog37]

Is this the Boyd thread now????

[bornadog]

Is this the Boyd thread now????

Yep, sick of Ward:D

[The Coon Dog]

If people want to talk about Matthew Boyd's disposal efficiency, can you create a new thread on it please?

I keep thinking I'm in this thread to read about a second player heading off to GWS.

[azabob]

Is this the Boyd thread now????

He must be the second player going to GWS!

[Rocco Jones]

I had another look at the Brennan trade last year. The Lions agreed to GC signing a 2nd player. The Lions received a 2nd compo pick as well as trading picks with GC. So in effect GC and Brisbane did a trade and exploited the compo system to get something for free.

We can use this loop hole for Sam Reid. GWS give us whatever and then we get the AFL compo on top of that (doesn't really take anything away from GWS).

[Maddog37]

I had another look at the Brennan trade last year. The Lions agreed to GC signing a 2nd player. The Lions received a 2nd compo pick as well as trading picks with GC. So in effect GC and Brisbane did a trade and exploited the compo system to get something for free.

We can use this loop hole for Sam Reid. GWS give us whatever and then we get the AFL compo on top of that (doesn't really take anything away from GWS).

I hope so Rocco. Then maybe we can trade that pick back to GWS as part of a 17 year old mini draft deal or to pre list a VFL type player.

[1eyedog]

Who said he was tracking at 50%? Your maths is good but don't get your point.

Sorry, no one did I was using it as an example that probably wasn't relevant to the subject discussion.


Just looking at Boyd's stats from this year, it's 31.9disp at 62% efficiency (about 5/8) with 3.5 clangers/game. His efficiency isn't that great but he has 14.8 contested possessions/game which puts him equal first in the comp with GAJ. He also is equal leader in comp for clearances with 7/game (with Moloney).


So whilst his disposal isn't brilliant, it is comparable stats wise to Simon Black, Sam Mitchell, Scott Thompson etc and he is winning more contested football and clearances (combined) than any other player in the competition.

Okay 62% thanks DD.


The point is how many times does he do this out of his average of 30 plus disposals? You are talking about perception rather than facts. I am continually amazed when a player makes an error and that error is amplified to the point that the player is seen as constantly making errors and all the good things they do are over looked.

Back to your statement, he is tracking at 62% efficiency not 50% so he is doing it approximately 11 times out 30.